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Back and Forth Between Qwerty and Dvorak?
jamesh asks: "I'm interested in switching over to an alternate keyboard layout, probably Dvorak, before I begin to suffer any effects of RSI. I'm almost 30 and have been typing since I was about 8, and these days spend most of my workday in front of a computer, typing away at a keyboard. I've searched the Internet and most people's comments are that within a few months they were up to or faster than their previous speed, with better accuracy. I'm mostly a programmer, but I do spend time at client sites and do need to spend time at various users computers to have a look at whatever hole they've dug themselves into, and so I will need to switch between QWERTY and Dvorak mode fairly frequently.
What others have found when switching back and forth, as required? Can you mentally just flip back between them, or do you 'lose' your QWERTY skills and become 'hunt & peck' when faced with the old keyboard layout?"
It can't be THAT hard to get the title right, can it?
Lasers Controlled Games!
If you're serious, then rather than Dvorak, choose one of the layouts specifically designed to help RSI. The leading contender is probably the Maltron layout. The sculpted keyboard helps, too, but they're also available in more traditional flat models as well.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Have you considered carrying a USB dvorak kbd with you to your client sites? ;)
I want a new world. I think this one is broken.
I tried the switch out last year when I was starting to get RSI. Despite what people say, you can mentally flip between Qwerty and Dvorak without much of a problem. I noticed my Qwerty speed slowed down some because I'd hit a wrong key occasionally, but nothing major. Just make sure you have a good two weeks when you don't need to type much else. I used this site to learn dvorak.
In the end, I really just stopped using Dvorak. I got over the beginning effects of RSI by not typing much and keeping my wrists straight when I did. Posture's important, too. But my typing speed in Dvorak never exceeded my Qwerty speed, so I just stopped using it. I can still type around 20 wpm with Dvorak, but I really don't have a use for it.
For linux users: "setxkbmap dvorak" and "setxkbmap en_US"
What is Qwery? And why no mention of Dork?
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/ 14/126222&tid=227
...I found I could no longer ride a bike without training wheels.
That said, Dvorak is a poor choice if you're doing any punctuation-heavy programming (perl, C, java, ...). The placement of the braces and continuance operators alone will drive you batty -- Dvorak was designed for a world where you were lucky to use either in a day, rather than several times per line.
I switched to dvorak about 5 years ago with a kenisis keyboard. I definately like it a lot better than querty...but I have no real problem switch between the two...as long as you go back to querty once in a while you should not have a problem. I would say that my querty speed has only dropped by about 20% and my dvorak speed is about 50% faster than my original querty speed. Just make sure you get used to the means to switch the layouts if you plan on playing games...I have to use querty to play WoW.
My comments may be crap...but they are my crap...and I am brave enough to stand by them...Never post as AC!
You can switch between QWERTY and DVORAK keyboard layouts in the international preferences pane.
Frg mgoy x. hrtcbiv Dr, dape jab cy x.Z S[) :-)
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
Learning another typing layout doesn't make you lose your ability to type on a Qwerty keyboard anymore than learning German might make you forget how to speak English.
That said, you might not be quite as good a Qwerty typer as you were originally, just like how learning a new language occasionally introduces a little bit of confusion in your mind. For the most part you're just as proficient though and potentially better off because of what knowing something new (language or keyboard layout).
Take a break from typing for a while. Take the time off work if need be. (Could probably be sick days.)
I have no problems flipping back and forth between the two layouts. It's a lot like 2 languages - I can say one sentence in English and the next sentence in Spanish without any problem, so why not keyboard layouts?
With that said, if you totally switch over to Dvorak, your Qwerty skills will get rusty - just like if I don't speak a foriegn language for a while I'll start to forget parts of it. My solution is to have my main machines Dvorak, and let the lesser used machines, and machines that would be hard to switch (like laptops) stay Qwerty. That way, I get practice in both layouts on a daily basis, while still enjoying the benefits of Dvorak most of the time.
There is a fascinating article in reason magazine debunking the myth of DVORAK's superiority, and it's common use as a poster child for so-called 'market failure'.
---
the pen is mightier than the sword, the sword is mightier than the court, the court is mightier than the pen.
Here's an article and discussion on the topic: An Arguement for Dvorak
I wonder if slashdot fans are as tender about linking to Kuro5hin as Kuro5hin fans are about linking to Slashdot. Let's find out.
The "natural" keyboards that split in the middle try and do that as well, but it's completely unnecessary to split the keyboard. It's just a matter of getting used to your hands at an angle to the keys.
I think tendon stress and inflammation comes from forcing the tendons to bend while using your fingers. Seriously -- the layout doesn't matter as much as your wrist position (think about it -- it's the pressing of the keys, not the moving of the fingers
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
I find that I can switch back and forth between QWERTY (for English) and AZERTY (for French) pretty easily.
You may want to consider the SafeType keyboard.
It gives you ergonomic benefits that no "ergonomic" bump-in-the-middle keyboard comes close to.
Besides, does Dvorak make that much of a difference? Sure, the layout might be marginally better but you're still twisting your wrists 90 degrees to make your hands parallel with it (pronation), you're then angling your elbows in 45 degrees and your hands back out 45 degrees to line up with it (deviation), and you're still, likely, tilting it (extension)putting even more stress on.
A better arrangement of keys is only going to do so much for you. At the end of the day, you've still got extension, deviation and pronation going on - even if you're marginally reducing stress within those three.
The SafeType sorts all three out. Lower your arms by your sides. Now lift your forearms up so your elbows are at 90 degrees. Nothing else. That's it. You're done. Your arms are in a massively more neutral position, your carpal tunnel is now straight, letting the tendons run through without rubbing against it, all is good in your world. Wouldn't you prefer a keyboard like that to one that's just as bad as every other keyboard with a marginally better layout?
The other advantage of the SafeType is that, if you can already touch type, once you stop overthinking it, you can already use it. All the keys are still in the QWERTY position - they're just broken in to two vertical blocks. Most people I've watched are up and using it within ten minutes, typing naturally within an hour or so.
That advantage translates in to backwards compatability - you're still using QWERTY so you can transfer to a client site without ever having to make a mental switch.
I've tried a lot of ergonomic options and this one's by far the best. It's not cheap - at about $300. Then again, if you're worth anything as a developer, you likely earn that in a single day or less. Isn't one day's pay worth ensuring your career last another 20 years? One day's pay is a lot less than no more days' pay.
(Note: I reviewed the keyboard for one of the IEEE magazines. At the time I was impressed but had enough minor issues that I regarded it as only useful for those who had problems they needed to immediately address. After the review, I kept using it - and I'm completely willing to admit I was wrong. It's a great keyboard and, honestly, well worth the price for anyone who works with computers all day every day.)
I've used Dvorak for about 9 years. My experience is that I touch-type Dvorak and hunt-and-peck in Qwerty (which I used to touch-type). I admit that I never tried to keep up my Qwerty.
It took a good month of practice to get my speed up, and probably a year before it really felt comfortable. I don't remember how long before my wrists felt better. They don't bother me now.
For a while, I think I felt physically a bit worse, because I carried slightly more tension when I was learning. I've had no reason to want to switch back.
Have you done other things to prevent RSI?
Things like making sure your desk and chair are the right height? Also it might make sense for you to not just change the layout, but change the keyboard. Either use a Microsoft Natural Keyboard or something like this: Maltron Keyboard
I've used Dvorak as my primary keyboard layout for about a year and a half now (I'm typing in it now, in fact). Switching took a while -- about 2 weeks for my Dvorak speed to pass my QWERTY speed, but I'm never going back now.
However, I can't use it all the time. At work, I type in QWERTY about part the time. Switching back and forth for me is no problem. After a few keystrokes of thinking where each key is, I'm back up to my old QWERTY speed (which is slower than my Dvorak speed). Dvorak is more "natural" to me, and the QWERTY->Dvorak switch is much easier than the other way around.
I've noticed that if I think about which keys I'm typing, I tend to mess up the layouts, but if I don't think about it at all, I have no problem. I can't explain it any more than that.
The worst part about switching back and forth is the punctuation. A friend of mine that also made the switch commented to me on this, so it's obviously not just me. Maybe this is because punctuation is silent, and is learned a different way than other keys?
For most typing, this isn't a problem. The odd time I'll typo a period as a V or an E, but that's that's few and far between. Programming I can now only really do in Dvorak, because of how common punctuation is. However, I rarely do programming on any computer that I cannot switch to Dvorak, and so I just always use Dvorak for that.
I do recommend switching to Dvorak.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 Whoops, silly middle mouse button...
from the
Don't see how this could provoke indignant responses. Confused, perhaps, but there was a certain logic underlying the post, and it certainly isn't hard to decipher given the overall topic of discussion - and someone's already done so.
There were no distortions of truth in this, no attempts to mislead, it was relevant to the topic of discussion, and, well, if you're here you're probably wasting time anyway, so, no, I don't think it's a troll, I think someone went trigger happy with the moderator button.
So over the past 9 years of Dvorak use I've found myself switching less and less. Here's an estimate of how my Qwerty speed was affected by Dvorak use:
Week 1 - Dvorak 10% of present speed (130 wpm), Qwerty 100% of original (pre-switch) speed (110 wpm)
Week 2 - Dvorak 30%, Qwerty 90%
Month 2 - Dvorak 80%, Qwerty 90%
Year 1 - Dvorak 95%, Qwerty 70%
Year 2 - Dvorak 100%, Qwerty 60%
Year 5 - Dvorak 100%, Qwerty 50%
Year 9 - Dvorak 100%, Qwerty 50%
Something like that. It now takes me longer to get over the "shock" of switching to Qwerty, too, maybe a day instead of 10 minutes...
One option for frequent "switchers" is to use Dvorak for typing, and Qwerty for commands. Mac OS X comes with a "DV - Qwerty command" keymap that lets you keep your muscle memory for all those command (CTRL)-C, V, etc. combinations. And it should be theoretically possible to set this up under Unix with an appropriate xmodmap, too.
Good luck!
For the most part, layout is really a small factor in the scheme of things. Putting the more common letters in the home position tends to reduce finger travel distance, but that just means any problems would happen later. On the other hand, something like having good posture could reduce or eliminate the chances of the problem entirely.
:) ), the importance of constant posture reminderss should not be understated. But for the forgetful, there are always special keyboards that force the wrist and fingers into their respective natural positions. As a bonus, they also sometimes place control keys (alt, shift, space, etc.) in more natural positions, though by no means would such a small change require learning a whole new keyboard layout.
What I find interesting is that pianists tend to not have RSI or carpal tunnel, even though their repertoire might primarily be Chopin. They do get arthritis, though that's usually from age and a matter of nutrition. But for a pianist, posture is extremely important in producing the right sounds. Wrist and forearm strength is necessary for dynamics. As well, having excellent control of their strength is very important. Of all these things, I think both the posture, and the way power generation is spread throughout the arm accounts for why pianists aren't as prone to RSI.
Power isn't really something we are in control of, as no one really wants their keyboard to be the length of an upright, or even close. I doubt anyone would like their keyboards to type like a piano either. The largest discouragement would be the necessari investment in developing agility and strength in their hands just to type up a 2-page essay.
As I mentioned before, posture is something we are fully in control of. And for those of us who are physically lazy (read: those of us who sit on our asses all day
Of course, if the special keyboards are too expensive, just type using only one or two fingers. That moves most of the stress to the forearms though perhaps at the cost of speed.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
damnit, why do my modpoints expire just before threads like this spring up.
Dvorak keyboards have only won in tests administered by Dvorak himself.. The truth is that he was looking to make money off of his patented configuration.
Still, the Dvorak story is very interesting to me in a sociological sense. The Dvorak keyboard's superiority has existed as a sort of counter-culture convential wisdom but has all the underpinnings of an "urban legend" -- a false or heavily-embellished story that survives because the story evokes a strong emotional response, serves as a cautionary tale and/or plays into feelings or ideas felt by a community. In this case the Dvorak story survives not because of the flimsy, circumstantial "proof" but rather because it evokes people's sense of outrage of the "Little Guy with new ideas" being unable fight the tide of convention.
That said, there *are* keyboards specifically designed to be easier on your fingers. I like the split keyboards because it's easier to keep my wrists straight.
Switch, you'll be fine.
I use QWERTY at work and when I'm doing work on other people's PCs. I do fine on QWERTY for letters for the most part but have a little more difficult time finding punctuation marks without looking for them.
Dvorak is ideal for programmers and anyone who uses brackets etc... since they seem to fall in more ergonomic places.
I was having to do some PHP coding on someone else's computer with a QWERTY layout and my only issue was when I had to put in quotation marks and curly brackets. Other than that, I type about 70wpm (QWERTY), a far cry less than the 140 I used to go at, but when I'm at home it's a different story.
I'm a programmer with rsi...I found this http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ helps better than standard dvorak...I also edited the maps and switched backspace with tab, capslock and enter
:)
It's great for rsi but my qwerty is shot...but my hands still work
Some benefits of Dvoark:
1) Less finger movement for typical English sentences. This is easily verifiable, and not questioned AFAIK.
2) The keycaps on typical keyboards don't match the letter assignment, so you aren't tempted to look a the keys.
3) It is supported by modern operating systems and can be used with readily available keyboards.
These are real benefits, and not hype. In contrast, much of the argument against Dvorak is based on hype arguing against hype. Though they argee QWERTY was never optimised for touch typing, Dvorak proponents these days don't necessarily say that the QWERTY was deliberately designed to slow typing down. It is hype to say they are saying that hype.
But still, Dvorak was designed with touch typing in mind and without the constraints of key jamming, and althogh not the best possible design, it is more efficient. I would expect it to be the most efficient layout possible when walking up to a stock computer with XP on it and adjusting settings. So it isn't the most optimal data entry method possible, but it is still the best without going to custom hardware and/or software.
The link you give seems to just be hype debunking things that people didn't believe in the first place. Even Dvorak proponents will believe that widely spaced common letters is good, and that is one of the things that the Dvorak keyboard does do even more than qwerty.
So what you are doing is inventing extra "benefits" that can be disproved, and then based on than, extending it to say that all benefits are disproved.
It's like saying "A security vulnerability was found in Linux, so it is isn't secure after all, and so most the benefits of Linux are hype. You should be concerned with the architecture of the computer as a whole rather than just the operating system."
How is using a different layout going to prevent RSI? Isn't the use of ANY keyboard going to be repetitive?
BTW, doesn't most of the pain come from using the mouse at improper angles?
It's all moot if you slouch in your chair or are way above it, start with getting sitting right, then go from there.
R(k)
I learned qwerty as a small child, under orders from my parents. *chuckle* It took me a while to become proficient, but it was good experience in retrospect.
When I was about 16, I taught myself Dvorak in two days. Since then, I've used Dvorak about 80% of the time.
I don't even think about switching back and forth, in fact it's not even as complicated as a mental toggle. I can just type in both layouts, as long as I know which layout I'm using.
I've followed the debates about whether the effectiveness of Dvorak is hype or urban legend and I think both sides have good points. However, in my experience, my fingers and wrists are much less sore after a night coding on Dvorak than with Qwerty. And that's all that matters to me...
I use both dvorak and qwerty. Since I'm at home, I'm typing on a dvorak keyboard right now. I would say that frequent switching makes you look at the keys a lot when you start to type (for obvious reasons) but then you pretty much can type on either layout.
As for the claims that dvorak is faster, more accurate, and helps ease typing fatigue, I would say that they are perhaps 30% true. I do notice a very slight increase in my speed while typing on a dvorak, but this could easily be explained by the fact that it's my home keyboard and I'm most comfortable using it, etc, and may have nothing to do with the layout. I do NOT notice a drastic increase in speed between the two layouts.
The idea that the dvorak layout reduces spelling errors is not only BS, it may in fact be the opposite. I have noticed especially that the famous home row with all the vowels in it causes no end of problems. You are hitting keys there so often, that you are bound to mess up. I mix up 'a' and 'o' frequently.
There is some truth in the claim that dvorak is more comfortable. This makes sense, given that the vowels are under your fingers and the keys are spaced so the most common ones are also the easiest to reach. I definitely notice after a while that typing on a qwerty starts to hurt in the muscles in my hands, and it happens far more easily on a qwerty than on my dvorak. I would say that the main thing that keeps me on a dvorak is that it's simply more comfortable to type on for an extended peroid of time.
Switching to dvorak takes about 50 hours, no BS involved. At first, it will really screw you up to reach for a key that's been in the same place for decades, to have it moved to a different place. I advise a lot of instant messaging and long college-style papers. If this sounds like fun, then go for it. If you are switching because it's going to be easier on your hands, then you are spending a lot of time and effort for it, and you will get some return on that. However, do not go into dvorak expecting a miracle keyboard.
Mostly, dvorak is simply different. As a dvorak user, I would argue that it's better and more comfortable, but mostly it's just a preference. Much like linux, it's a different way of doing the same thing.
I have to agree. I switched about 3 years ago, after several years of wrist pain. I've hardly had pain like this since.
And to answer the original poster, I'm afraid I've become hunt-and-peck on QWERTY, except for certain words such as my userID, which I have to enter in QWERTY mode on occasion before my layout preference has taken effect.
Mencken had it right. So glad that's old news.
The world record for words per minute (170) was typed on a Dvorak keyboard.
h tml
http://sominfo.syr.edu/facstaff/dvorak/blackburn.
- IP
Yeah, I see you're still having trouble. That shift key keeps getting stuck down, doesn't it?
"Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber" -- Plato
I actually did this back in 1999 or so, for similar reasons. I found it pretty easy to learn Dvorak. It did help with pain, but I suspect this had more to do with slowing down and learning how to type (any layout) "correctly" than it being a more ergonomic layout. After about 3 years, I ended up going back to QWERTY. Several reasons why I switched back:
It's been maybe 2 years since I switched back, and surprisingly I can still type fluently on Dvorak. Probably because I learned "proper typing" for Dvorak, whereas with QWERTY I was just winging it.
I am not a doctor, but here is what has helped me concerning pain while typing: learn to type (your country's native layout) PROPERLY. Use BOTH sides of the keyboard when chording. You have two shift keys, two ctrl keys, two alts, etc. Don't try holding down ctrl with your left pinky while you press another key with the same hand. I think programmers are notorious for this kind of behavior (even to the point of turning caps lock into a 3rd ctrl key.) And use your caps lock when typing more then 2 capital letters in succession. All of this will slow you down a lot in the beginning, but I think the end result is well worth it.
"my userID, which I have to enter in QWERTY mode on occasion before my layout preference has taken effect"
I had the same problem, using Windows XP at work, and finding that the initial login (naturally) did not follow my personal prefs. My peeve was not so much the userID; rather, it was annoying to hunt-and-peck a *password* on qwerty.
To change the initial Windows XP login window so it uses Dvorak US instead of the standard (qwerty) layout, change the registry key "HKEY_USERS\.DEFAULT\Keyboard Layout\Preload\1" to "00010409". (Actually, in order to support æøå, I've had to replace the Dvorak DLL file with a custom Norwegian variant, so what my XP calls 'Dvorak US' is in effect 'Dvorak NO'.)
"Good news, everyone!"
I have no commented about the RSI~~But I would like to share my changing experience here.
:)
Of course I were also an QWERTY user for more than 10 years, and I decided to change to Dvorak two years ago for fun. Now I can type in both layout, without any speed loss. I dunno if I do type faster in Dvorak or not but I feel that it gives much less loading on my hands. However, it takes some time to adopt the Copy and Paste shortcut, because the CXV combination were designed for QWERTY, now I prefer using Ctrl/Shift+Ins/Del more than Ctrl+CXV for that.
Some word for Changjie Typist: BTW, I am a Chinese (Cantonese to be exact) speaker living in Hong Kong, and of course I do type Chinese (Traditional) a lot too, using the famous ChangJie IME. At almost the same time, I changed my Chinese IME from ChangJie to http://www.array.com.tw/Array, again for Fun and geeky feeling...However things doesn't happen like QWERTY->Dvorak, I have a long period forgetting/messing up with my ChangJie skill. I would conclude that because the fundemental idea of ChangJie and Array is similar, and we learn Chinese IME by remembering the building blocks but not by key and hence the result. It takes almost a year for me to be able to type equally fast with ChangJie.
Anyway, I would encourage everyone to change to Dvorak, and in fact three more people have been a Dvorak typist since then
It was designed for typing words. In english. Common characters are easiest to reach. Uncommon ones (such as curly braces, brackets, other symbols used in programming) are the least convenient to reach.
If almost all of your typing is really programming, I doubt dvorak is what you want.
One of the many things I hate. thingsihate.org
I switched to dvorak for a couple of weeks, just to see how it was. It is ok for typing letters, and such things, but for programming it's really anoying. For example, the > chars for html are not so handy, and *all* shortcuts are messed up...
If you take your time to fix all shortcuts and such things, then perhaps you gain something...
I switch between Dvorak and Qwerty very often (usually two or three switches per day). Qwerty is literally painful to use.
I've noticed, though, that while I can type faster with Dvorak, I'm less likely to be accurate. Overall there's a speed increase, but if I concentrated on fast typing in Qwerty, I'd probably get the same results. It's mainly wrist strain at this point--and the fact that I don't accidentally press Control+V rather than Control+C and lose data.
I do the same between AZERTY and QWERTY; in Belgium, AZERTY is the default keyboard layout, but some friends swear by QWERTY for coding and sometimes I have to use their comps. And what's worse: lots of games even in this day and age have the keyboard layout hardcoded to QWERTY instead of just asking the OS what character corresponds to the pressed key, so this means I have to switch between the two fairly often. Although I'm not as fluent in QWERTY than in AZERTY I can type on a QWERTY board pretty well.
So I wouldn't bother too much; your QWERTY skills are pretty much hardcoded in your brain by now, and it's like riding a bycile... You may not ride it as well as ten years ago if you haven't ridden a bike during that time, but you'll still be able to get to where you wanna be.
I must admit though; the difference between AZERTY and QWERTY is of course a lot smaller than the difference between QWERTY and DVORAK, so YMMV. For me, the trick is to type in a made-up language: type a Z wherever I want to type a W, type a Q wherever I want to type an A, switch the M and the ","... This trick would probably not work to make the switch between QWERTY and DVORAK.
Install windows on my workstation? You crazy? Got any idea how much I paid for the damn thing?