Hot Coffee Cooling Off

The storm of media and cynicism that was "Hot Coffee" is, thankfully, coming to an end. To wrap things up, reactions were mixed to the re-rating of GTA. Some thought it too much, some too little too late. With the removal of the M rating, ESRB president Patricia Vance considers the matter closed. Even those in the industry itself seem glad that it's over, though the folks quoted for the 1up story seem cynical about the whole thing. "[Rockstar] TOTALLY screwed the modding community, as far as I am concerned. Because they could have just removed the content. They tried to get cute and leave it in. In my experience that sort of thing is always deliberate. Anyway, the point is that most game developers are recalcitrant and immature jerks. When mom tells us we can't do something, we're sure as hell going to do it. If you get my meaning. I think 'mom' in this case was the ESRB." As a sidenote, stock in Take-Two Entertainment dropped by almost five percent at close of market today, on the news that even Gamestop is dumping the now AO-rated GTA title.

Comments

Tshirt Already?

[ack154]

And as a keepsake for all of the madness... be sure to pick up your very own Hot Coffee t-shirt from ThinkGeek!

As soon as they're actually in stock, that is.

Re:Tshirt Already?

[imuffin]

And, in the true spirit of Slashdot (Thinkgeek and Slashdot being owned by the same), they misspell the work mourn in the shirt's description.

---
watch funny commercials

Re:Tshirt Already?

[BaudKarma]

I'd just like to state that I find it highly suspicious that the first post in this thread is an ad for a Thinkgeek product. And that it's modded up to +5.

Re:Tshirt Already?

[themishkin]

Hahaha, check out Maddox's article on this whole thing! Always hilarious... http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ti cket_to_hell

Re:Tshirt Already?

[Elminst]

and even more in the spirit of ./; you misspell "word" (work) while complaining about their spelling errors.
Meta meta spelling nazi?

Re:Tshirt Already?

[mpontes]

Dotslash? (Meta Meta Meta spelling Nazi).

It's about time!

[ChibiLZ]

I for one am very glad that this whole debacle is over. I think it's somewhat ridiculous that people are angry at Rockstar. AFAIK, GTA:SA is rated M for violence and sexual content. Why must it be AO now? This certainly wasn't hardcore porno, it was not even as bad as what you see on cable late at night.

And to think that GameStop is not going to sell the game anymore? Regardless, it's well out of the spotlight now, but the game they stop selling today is the game that they were hyping the hell out of for pre-orders 1 year ago. I don't care what the ESRB rating is, nothing has changed.

I certainly don't think kids should buy this game, regardless of the sex, they shouldn't be exposed to that kind of violent content. However, it's now a pain in the ass for me if I want to buy a copy. It seems I can no longer go into my local videogame store and pick it up, I'll have to order it online and wait. I wonder if it will arrive in a plain brown envelope. Wouldn't want the neighbors or mailman to know I'm getting such perverted things in the mail.

Re:It's about time!

[Araxen]

EB Games is still going to carry the game. They have only taken it off the self for about a week to make sure the boxes say AO on them. EB will make a killing now if they are the only brick and mortar place selling it.

Re:It's about time!

[timeOday]

I think it's somewhat ridiculous that people are angry at Rockstar. AFAIK, GTA:SA is rated M for violence and sexual content. Why must it be AO now?

When you decieve somebody, their reaction when the truth comes out is greater than if you had told them the same thing upfront.

What annoys people about this is that Rockstar decieved both the industry and the public about the content of the game. So long as this occurs, consumers can't know what they're buying. OK, so you don't mind. But the point is people should have the information up front to make their own choice.

Re:It's about time!

[ipfwadm]

What annoys people about this is that Rockstar decieved both the industry and the public about the content of the game. So long as this occurs, consumers can't know what they're buying.

No, Rockstar didn't deceive anyone. When you went out and bought the game, there was no possible way that you were going to get exposed to this "sex scene" without knowingly going out of your way to enable it. No possible way. Therefore, the sex scene was not part of the "content of the game", and therefore Rockstar did not deceive anyone about the content of the game.

People's reaction to this is "greater than if you had told them the same thing upfront" because they don't understand what it's all about. They hear that there's a sex scene in the game and they pull out their pitchforks and torches. They probably think this is actually a scene you'd come across during normal gameplay, and therefore they do feel deceived.

Re:It's about time!

[Rasta Prefect]

People's reaction to this is "greater than if you had told them the same thing upfront" because they don't understand what it's all about. They hear that there's a sex scene in the game and they pull out their pitchforks and torches. They probably think this is actually a scene you'd come across during normal gameplay, and therefore they do feel deceived.

Or, Rockstar disabled the content but left it there knowing that somebody was eventually going to find it - but not until after they'd been rated.

Re:It's about time!

[ipfwadm]

Or, Rockstar disabled the content but left it there knowing that somebody was eventually going to find it - but not until after they'd been rated.

Possibly... But my opinion then is "who cares?" If it's not part of the normal gameplay; if someone has to go out and look for a hack that will enable whatever it is they're looking for, then what's the big deal? No one is stumbling upon this. No one is being exposed to anything against their will.

And at the same time, I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of games out there that have similarly-locked features. It just happens that GTA's was discovered.

Re:It's about time!

[ajservo]

Considering that EB's under a pending purchase with Gamestop soon, I wouldn't count them on stocking the title too much longer.

Re:It's about time!

[PsiPsiStar]

You need to use a patch to see the scene.

It would be easier to watch porn using my web browser than it would be using this game.

Re:It's about time!

[krbvroc1]

I completely agree with you. The hoopla is so rediculous. Its almost someone giving you a formula for isolating the printed words in the latest Harry Potter book to form a short porn story. Take the 6th word, followed by 12th word, followed by 24th word, etc.

The content was not accessible without a mod. Furthermore, having seen the content, its not all that indecent especially for a 17 year old.

I'm trying to undertand where all this save the children rhetoric is coming from and my conclusion is that it makes for an easy target. One tangential concern I've encountered is that rated M (17+) games are widely sold to minors. The statistics I say came from one Parents Television Council so they are probably misleading and distorted if their reporting on other the facts in the case are a barometer. They claim more than 70 percent of teenagers, 'according to a Gallop Poll', have played a Grand Theft Auto game. I can't find the poll results but there is a lot of ways to mislead with that statistic.

Another 'statistic' from the groups behind the media frenzy:
'According to research by the National Institute on Media and the Family, games rated M, which means they are appropriate only for people aged 17 or older, are relatively easy for teenagers and even children as young as age 7 to obtain. In the National Institute's recent study, 50 percent of boys between the ages of 7 and 14 successfully purchased M-rated video games, and an astonishing 87 percent of boys play M-rated games. Furthermore, nearly a quarter of retailers in the study don't even understand the ratings they are supposed to enforce, and only half of the stores train employees in the use of the ratings.'

Re:It's about time!

[rhsanborn]

I think people's gripe is that Rockstar did this to deliberately circumvent the rating system. I.E. they wanted people to find this little hack, maybe someone even said something in passing to someone else, who told his friend's brother's neighbor's dog to write a little script to unlock the content.

My gripe is that Rockstar initially came out saying this was all lies and that Hot Coffee added content to the game. Why couldn't they just walk out and say, "Yeah, they found it."

The lack of any and all corporate, or general integrity irritates me to no end.

Re:It's about time!

[colinferm]

It's nice to hear a little bit of common sense.

Where this is coming from is that this country is in the same place, culturally, as we were with comic books in the 50's. At the time, all the great crime and horror comics were being published by one house (EC) and politicians - and one doctor who's name escapes me - screamed about how terrible this was for kids and how the nation was going to be full of little murderers if something wasn't done. There were congressional hearings, banner headlines, all the same as we're seeing right now for video games.

In response, the comics industry put together the "voluntary" Comics Code Of America which most DC and Marvel books carried into the mid-90's that included various draconian "guidelines" forbidding , for instance, a comic to show anything bad happening to a police officer.

The sad fact was that most of these books were picked up at news stands by bank clerks, butchers, and other adults who wanted something entertaining to read on their way to work and not so much by children. What the comics code did was essentially dumb down comics to the point that adults stopped reading them through out the 50's, 60's, and early 70's and basically put EC out of business since news stands wouldn't carry comics that didn't have the Comics Code stamp on their covers.

It's too bad to see that the same thing is happening today with video games. I mean, I read that the median - median, average - age of video gamers is 27. That said, if we can have movies - and thankfully, comic books again - for adults, why not video games also? The box says 17+, so is it Rockstar's fault if parents are buying nine year old little Johnny a game that includes violence and now sex? The common sense answer, as you've said, is no.

Anyway, just some history to go with it.

Re:It's about time!

[Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki]

"and one doctor who's name escapes me"

Fredric Wertham. He did convert (if that's the right word) before his death, though. He saw that he wasn't right in all cases.

Re:It's about time!

[justin12345]

I was actually thinking of a sticker under the shrink wrap, but it hardly matters...

Retailers are not supposed to sell M or AO games to kids. The switch to AO is largely symbolic. In practical terms the only thing it will effect is which retailers will carry the game. Wal*mart for instance will not. Neither will a number of other retailers, including Game Stop (as pointed out above).

Re:It's about time!

[renderhead]

They probably think this is actually a scene you'd come across during normal gameplay, and therefore they do feel deceived.

Not necessarily. In the case of GTA:SA, the whole issue may seem to be splitting hairs. The entire game already revolves around violence and sex anyway, right? But the parent groups may be concerned with the precendent of the thing.

Suppose a year from now, parents are mystified that their 13 year old sons want to own some game called "Happy Bunny and the Carnival Mystery" (Rated "E" for Everyone). but how can they object? All of the game's content has been reviewed and approved by the ERSB and multiple gaming publications as being suitable for kids.

Then it turns out that a code, widely available on the web but largely unknown outside of gaming circles, unlocks the "freak show" mode, granting access to rooms full of violent and pornographic images. Some developer put it in as a joke, with the rationale that none of the kids will ever see it because it requires them to 'knowingly go out of their way to enable it.'

Again, GTA is an odd place to set the precedent because most conscientious parents wouldn't allow it in their houses in the first place, but no parent likes the idea that a gaming company might, willfully or accidentally, help their child smuggle obscene material through their door under the guise of a milder game.

Rockstar is being made into an example for all game companies to discourage the insertion of "easter eggs" that might change the rating of the game were they enabled by default.

Re:It's about time!

[HTH NE1]

I find it interesting that Best Buy is pulling it from their shelves. The copy I purchased post-Hot Coffee, pre-rerating, and still shrinkwrapped has the price tag affixed atop the rating on the front of the package.

Sure, the rating on the back is still there, but there will be those that buy it without looking at the back, and that those who won't check the back wouldn't have noticed it on the front either (i.e. you have to be looking for it to care to notice it).

But it does seem a bit hypocritical to object to selling AO-rated games but will hide the M-rated games' rating with their price tag.

I oppose the rerating, but I also wish they'd kept it on the shelves relabeled as AO so that it would be there to encourage parents to pay attention to the ESRB ratings! Then maybe they'll take the responsibility for exposing their pre-17-year-olds to the M-games content and only be able to be upset about their 17-year-olds being exposed to Hot Coffee.

Re:It's about time!

[zoney_ie]

Hey, the problem does exist, and isn't even just one of selling to those underage for the title.

Here in my city in Ireland, one of the major toy stores (which sells computer games) stocked GTA:SA. Well, they didn't sell to those underage - they didn't have to. The kids' parents were buying it for them.

And it gets worse. The counter assistents were under orders to tell the parents just how graphic the game was (in language, violence, etc.) without pulling the punches. Well, the parents were taken aback and shocked apparently, but most bought it all the same, saying "ah sure, all his friends will have it".

People aren't interested in rearing kids properly anymore. They probably shouldn't have kids, and only do so out of selfishness (wanting to hear the pitter-patter of feet, etc., etc.).

Kids not being reared properly is the single reason our society will continue in its decadent downward spiral.

----

On a more related note, I do find it strange that in the US, mere sex scenes bring the game up to an 18s rating, while the graphic violence, gritty theme, and appalling language do not.

Re:It's about time!

[DrLang21]

Suppose a year from now, parents are mystified that their 13 year old sons want to own some game called "Happy Bunny and the Carnival Mystery" (Rated "E" for Everyone). but how can they object? All of the game's content has been reviewed and approved by the ERSB and multiple gaming publications as being suitable for kids.

Then it turns out that a code, widely available on the web but largely unknown outside of gaming circles, unlocks the "freak show" mode, granting access to rooms full of violent and pornographic images. Some developer put it in as a joke, with the rationale that none of the kids will ever see it because it requires them to 'knowingly go out of their way to enable it.'

Simple. I just wouldn't let my kid get anymore games from that company. I would feel deceived. I would also feel that in no way should legal action be taken. And then I would probly go play with the freak show for my own entertainment.

Re:It's about time!

[Elminst]

"Its almost someone giving you a formula for isolating the printed words in the latest Harry Potter book to form a short porn story."

Oh hell, it's WAY easier than that...
Just change every instance of the word "wand" to "wang". One little letter makes the whole series perverse.

There's post on bash.org about it, if i recall.... Yup.
http://bash.org/?111338

Re:It's about time!

[Fred Ferrigno]

Or, Rockstar disabled the content but left it there knowing that somebody was eventually going to find it - but not until after they'd been rated.

I view it as analogous to an easter egg on a DVD movie. Except for this easter egg, you have to know what you're looking for, use external hardware to get it, and spend several hours trying to find it. But other than that, an easter egg.

All DVDs nowadays come with a notice saying "DVD extras and commentary unrated" -- only the movie, the main content, the stuff you really paid to see, is rated. If you have to hit a dozen buttons to access the secret menu of hidden sex scenes cut from the movie, you probably know what you're in for. Nobody is going to protect you from what you worked so hard to find.

Now, if they would only add the video game version of "extras unrated", we'd be fine. People know (or should know) what GTA is when they buy it; is there really some uproar among consumers about this? You know, that game where you go around stealing cars, beating up hookers, and killing cops -- why, it has sex in it! It was fine for little Jimmy before, but not now! You must take it off the shelves and burn it!

Re:It's about time!

[Kyosuke77]

I remember in Giants: Citizen Kabuto, the game could be hacked to make one of the characters, Delphi, topless. She was apparently topless in the original release but they put a bikini top on her for the North American version. Quaintly, the file you deleted to make the change was named 'arpfix' (American Rating Panel?).

Re:It's about time!

[pnice]

I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of games out there that have similarly-locked features.

Like the one in Rings of Power for the Sega Genesis. To see a topless chick in the game hold down the DOWN, RIGHT, START, A, B, & C buttons on controller 2 and restart the Genesis. I remember reading this is a game mag back in the day and was able to find it searching on google.

http://www.classicgaming.com/thedump/genesis/secre ts.htm

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Luddite]

>> watch porn using my web browser

You can do that?!?

This could change the whole rating of the internet to AO, better keep it quiet.

Re:It's about time!

[thesandtiger]

Any game that is moddable can be modified in this way then, and therefore all game companies need to make it impossible for users to create and then distribute "disturbing" (whatever your definition of it is) content with the game - if we follow your logic. Which I don't, but I understand the attraction of it.

Rockstar made a mini-game and then didn't remove all of it from their game, but they didn't make it accessable by "normal" play (or ANY play), either. It requires a modification of the software, not just some code that needs to be entered at a pause point. ANY game that is moddable can be modified into providing content that people will be up in arms to.

Oh noes, someone made a mod that turns the monsters in Doom 3 into children, and all the weapons into sex toys! Clearly, Doom 3 needs to be made Adults Only!

Oh noes, someone made some skins for The Sims that make them nude, and Little Jimmy has now got a house full of naked polyamorous lesbians running around! Clearly, The Sims needs to be made Adults Only!

Oh noes, someone made skins for Morrowind that makes every NPC in the game into an extremely well-hung and otherwise well-endowed transsexual centaur! Clearly, Morrowind needs to be made Adults Only!

Oh noes, someone made a mod of Barbie's Baking Challenge that converts the pies she bakes into Jewish Children, and the Betty Crocker Cooking Campus into Auschwitz! Clearly, Barbie's Baking Challenge needs to be made - what, it's only monstrous violence and not sex? - well, Mature then.

Re:It's about time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hacking the savefile is no different than hacking game. It's a hack. The content cannot be viewed by playing the game through any avenue presented by the content provider. Without alteration of some sort, that scene is not accessible. Period. Therefore, I don't believe that it is justified to re-rate this game based on content that cannot be viewed without alteration. Arguments about re-rating this game based on the hack is absurd given the nature of the default content to begin with.

And FYI, as a software developer myself, often sections of code rendered obsolete or part of functionality removed are quite often left in due to time constraints. Many times components of a piece of software cannot be completed in time or doesn't meet some requirement (maybe in this case exceeded the M rating). So it is removed, but the way in which it is removed is uaully removal of the calling functions rather than outright removing all pieces of code because they would require a great deal more regression testing to ensure that there were no impacts to the rest of the game (which may lead to a push in the delivery date). I suspect that this is likely the cause of the code being in the game. THe original poster says Rockstar screwed the modding community. In fact, I contend that the modding community screwed Rockstar. Nice going, guys.

Re:It's about time!

[GPLDAN]

This is about Hillary Clinton. Like her or hate her, I am not taking sides in that one. But this is part of her campaign to move to the center. She needs to take on issues of morality, of "saving the children", of making sure she's tough on smut. I'm not sure why, exactly, it may have to do with the fact that the GOP released a smear book about her insinuating she is, and always has been, a lesbian.

Either way, it's a calculated ploy, a checkmark on an agenda designed to set up her run in 2008. She has looked at the numbers, and studied very carefully why Kerry lost, and is not going to make those mistakes. As a woman, she dares not divorce Bill, that was a decision made long ago, even though she loathes him. She needs to prepare her armor against the religious right who will tell her that she is not family values based, not somebody "right" for America. A female presidential candiate has a whole suite of attacks open that don't exist for men. Next up will probably something on terrorism or foreign policy based. Being from New York that makes sense, although she can't touch the insane distrubution of homeland security money, she needs to win states like Colorado and Wyoming, who get "throw away" money.

Re:It's about time!

[kosmicki]

It is sorta funny, as you know they had to review it as a team and were discussing it. "No no, I think it needs to be longer. Maybe a shade darker. Can you make that motion a little smoother?"

I hate America

[Mr.Dippy]

Let's see the game is about black men running around smacking hoes and doing drive bys and most people don't have a problem with this. But, once you add some sex into the game there are congressional hearings. Stupid America, when will you ever learn?!

Re:I hate America

[Ced_Ex]

I wouldn't say America, more like those stuck up Holier-Than-Thou retards at the ratings board.

I can't see how sex is more evil than violence. Think of the utopia they want to have. A world with violence and no sex. Wait... wouldn't that be the fuckin apocalypse?

Re:I hate America

[Builder]

A world with violence and no sex. Wait... wouldn't that be the fuckin apocalypse?

Uhm, no it wouldn't. The fucking apocalypse will have sex. I think you're thinking of the regular apocalypse.

Re:I hate America

[DLWormwood]

I can't see how sex is more evil than violence. Think of the utopia they want to have... apocalypse?

The Biblical Book Of Revelations (aka "Apocalypse" in ancient languages) was written to describe the "end times" that Christians believe will happen that will finally wipe the Earth clean of evil. It is a very violent book, filled with surreal images of carnage and suffering, but very little sexual content. (It's almost the polar opposite of Song Of Solomon in that regard.) Christian culture (which the U.S. is heavily influenced by) has always regarded violence as a path of virture and sex as a path to damnation. (The whole "thou shalt not kill" business was a mistranslation of the original Hebrew; it refers to murder, not military warfare.)

Given that many of the more Evangelical types of Christian are now political savvy and powerful in post-Cold War American, it's little wonder that our culture is starting to "self-fulfill" the prophesies in the book. America's constant strife with Middle Eastern countries (and backing of Isreal) is inline with the "Battle Of Megido" depicted in that book. Most of the Fundamentalists in this country are expecting the "Rapture" to happen in their lifetime. I know; I used to be one growing up...

Re:I hate America

[krbvroc1]

I disagree with your main premise and I think it highlights some of the issues.

First, Sex != Love. There is a lot more to a loving relationship that you don't get just from sex.

Parents, particulary conservative ones, seems to want to live in a world of ideology versus the real world--ignorance it bliss. Out of sight, out of mind, etc. These are all issue that need to be addressed, discussed, and countered. If it is mainstream then they need to be able to cope with it. Its an opportunity to teach that because its mainstream doesn't make it right and individuality is important in developing their values.

As far as your comment that 'Kids know that violence is just wrong and should always be avoided' is wrong on so many levels. First, our culture celebrates violence. To use your words-'its mainstream'. Second, our schools where many children learn their social skills do not have a zero tolerence policy on 'fighting' - its written off as 'boys will be boys'. Third, if you believe we lead by example, we have been at war killing people for the past few years, its mainstream. Kids see that on the news and its 'normal' and 'accepted'.

Re:I hate America

[DroopyStonx]

No, it's America.

That's why you can see someone with a bullet through their skull on prime time TV and the very reason why seeing a nipple during half-time is fucking blasphemy.

Flat out, majority of people in this country are stupid fucking sheep that don't bother thinking or questioning their surroundings.

Seriously, I'd love to have ONE person tell me why it's okay to see people getting shot all over TV, but you can't see two people fucking.

Fucking sheep. Fucking America. This country disgusts me.

Re:I hate America

[chphilli]

I think you have a severe misunderstanding of the role of sex in the Christian life. Go pick up a copy of C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity (most bookstores will have it), and read it. That should clear up a lot of the misunderstanding you seem to have about the issue.

Re:I hate America

[John Harrison]

The Biblical Book Of Revelations

This is a nit that I must pick. The name of the book is singular, not plural.

Re:I hate America

[Phyvo]

I am a Christian. Doubtless, there are some Christians that you are right in this respect about. But I am not one of them.

The Christian point of view is that sex is great when you do it the way God designed you to: at the very least, monogamously. Doing it otherwise is like trying to eat vegetables with only your two upper front teeth. It's just not the way you were designed to eat.

The New Testament condemns any sort of violence, such as revenge, or even being really angry with your brother for spilling coke on your PS2. I admit, I don't have a very good short answer for what goes on in the Old Testament. I'm still looking into that. In any case, even it doesn't support randomly killing people like in GTA.

Note, I am not defending church history, or "Christian" culture. I am only defending the Christian the Bible tells us to be.

Re:I hate America

[WonderChef]

Regarding sex:

Sex is not "a path to damnation" in Christianity; as the primal creative act, it is beautiful and sacred, our imitation of the Creator. It is an act with a goal and a consequence, and taken outside of that context (producing a child, not just enjoying ourselves without consequence) can have disastrous effects upon the father, mother, and child. Yes, there are single fathers and mothers who manage to get through their lives. I'm not going to say that they are poor parents. But I'm sure we all know people that had an "accident" that resulted in their lives becoming pretty difficult. Wouldn't it have been better if that child was born when the parents were certain of their love, and in an appropriate financial situation to support a family?

In mentioning the Song of Solomon, you see how sex isn't a path to damnation. When Mary Magdalene washed Jesus' feet with her tears and hair, that was nearly a sexual act in the context of their society at the time. Yet He says to her that her sins are forgiven, that her faith has saved her, to go in peace.

Sex is given to us as a gift to rejoice in, that we might find one whom we truly love and create with them as God created us out of love; what is not supported is the viewing of sex as something for our own ephemeral pleasure, devoid of its true context and ramifications. And this is not to say that sex cannot be pleasant! Just that we must be mindful of what exactly we are doing, what it means and why this gift was given to us.

It is unfortunate that the Western traditions of Christianity developed such an attitude of guilt regarding sex. To understand that we are sinners, that we miss the mark (the meaning of sin in Greek), and to comprehend that in the context of God's love and forgiveness for us results in humility. Guilt, however, is concerned with a person looking at their stature amongst others. It is about judging oneself and one's neighbor, saying, "Not even God is big enough to forgive me." Guilt seeks the love of men, not God, and deny's God's forgiveness. Approaching the gift of human sexuality with an attitude of fear and guilt is just as dangerous as having wanton sex!

Regarding violence:

Turn the other cheek, judge not lest ye be judged, love thy neighbor as thyself, do unto others as you would have them do unto you; as I have loved you, love one another--by this will all men know ye are My disciples. Forgiving up to seventy times seventy. Confessing our sins to one another, asking forgiveness of one another, and forgiving one another as the Father forgives his Prodigal Son. All the sufferings of Christ and the Apostles and the Martyrs, borne with patience in renunciation of this world's ways. Healing the man whose ear was cut off, a man who came to take Jesus to his death. Where is violence seen as virtue in these essential sayings?

Yes, people die in Revelations. Bad things happen. But in this world of choice, of physical matter, not all states of matter are pleasing. In a world of causality, all our actions have have consequences, and we will reap what we sow. And we cannot see the chain of causality, that incomprehensible spider web of order in chaos as all our actions come to full manifestation, in very real carnage and suffering. We can choose our ego, thinking that we know what is best for us in love of self and ephemeral pleasure, or we can choose to submit ourselves to God's will, that our Father in Heaven knows what we require to bring us to glory. God became man that man might become like God, and it is our choice to decide whether that is what we desire or not.

Christ teaches us how to bring the Kingdom of Heaven down to Earth, into the interior of our heart (the Kingdom of Heaven is within you), to transcend suffering -- even rejoice in it -- and bear our crosses on a pilgrimage, forgiving those who mock us, spit at us, even kill us: as Christ forgave those who did the same to him. Not to escape away in a rapture, but to bear persecutions and sufferings as the Martyrs did, that i

Remind me why R* should care again

[BlackCobra43]

GTA: SA was the best-selling console game of 2004, despite only being published on one platform at the time. Are we seriously expected to believe major retailers will forever keep the evil, evil GTA games off their shelves? Why should Rockstar Games/Take Two?

Re:Remind me why R* should care again

[blueZhift]

In the short term, this whole deal seems to have backfired on Rockstar and they'll have to spend some money recalling shipped stock and then manufacturing and shipping the "clean" version. LOL, now mom and dad can safely buy GTA for junior and his 5th grade buddies! They should pick up the clean copies of 50cent's new album while they're at it.

Seriously though, Rockstar can still turn this into a New Coke style winner. Now they've essentially been given the green light to sell two versions of GTA: SA. They can sell the safe clean version at Wal-Mart and the uncut, girls gone wild, hentai version online. See now, they can just unlock the Hot Coffee minigames and add more if they want. With the AO label, they can totally cut loose and with all of the free publicity the market is already primed. It's almost as if they get to do the launch all over again. The only ones who could stop them from doing this might be Sony and Microsoft on the consoles since they have to be licensed to publish on those platforms. On the PC though, anything goes. Played right, R* may have opened the door a bit for AO versions of popular games to start appearing on consoles. As for the ESRB and modders everywhere, I think they've just been played...

Even Gamestop?

[sqlrob]

I tried to get it there the day the rating changed. Nope, no way, not on any of the platforms, they don't sell AO.

And they still had the "San Andreas: Get It Here!" display up too.

So they were one of the *first* to can it, no "even GameStop" about it, they were the leaders of the pack.

more popular now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Teenagers want this game more than ever now. The stock price may drop but take a look at their sales results when they come out...

Were we ever really surprised?

[bedroll]

I mean, the people who hated this game from before it was released were the same ones who made a stink of it this time. It was just a new angle to come at it. The realists say that the game was already rated M, which should've been good enough. The extremists think it should pulled from all shelves, AO isn't good enough.

I'm just waiting for the lawsuits. I'm sure that some offended conservative group is trying to find distress Moms who's little babies downloaded the patch to modify the game and were sullied. Poor little Johnny.

I for one...

[Phu5ion]

am going out to purchase this too-hot-for-Gamespot game. Then i'm going to make little kids play it. Call me The Pusher Man.

So..

[Turn-X Alphonse]

So they add a new label and it's done with. It's the same game it was last week, the same game it was last month and the same game it'll be tomorrow.

GTA:SA will sell no matter the age rating, anyone who wanted it already had it or knows where to get it. It's like closing the stable door once the horse has bolted.

The "it's for the children" groups will see this as a victory. The game industry will shrug and go "oh well" and the gamers will go "STFU and get over it, it's a game".

That's how life works. Give it a month and they'll find another way to attack GTA, do very little (oh they changed a letter and added another to the rating GASP! Think of the ink it'll use!), rinse and repeat.

Maybe we should start pointing out how GTA:SA is infact a POSITIVE story about a guy trying to get out the ghetto and deal with corrupt officials with too much power.

Re:So..

[Dhalka226]

GTA:SA will sell no matter the age rating

I think it's true that changing from M to AO wouldn't deter most people from buying it.

It DOES, however, deter many stores from selling it. Target, Best Buy and Wal-Mart have already pulled it from their shelves. I know Wal-Mart refuses to stock ANY AO-rated game, I'm not sure if the others do as well or if they were just reacting to this present controversy.

So, it might increase (or hold steady the) DEMAND, but it will also make it harder to find. Since the ostensible goal is to keep it out of the hands of people under 18 now, online stores might not be an option (no credit card).

Personally, I think the whole thing is damn stupid.

Well... at least

[Adult film producer]

I can still kill cops and pummel innocent bystanders with a club, smashing their brains in till blood oozes all over the sidewalk. Good family fun.

Publicity

[MarkByers]

Despite all the bad publicity about this game, I can only imagine that it will have a positive effect on sales, as loads of people that otherwise would never have bought this game are now interested in it, purely because of the amount of hype surrounding it.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[tgd]

How do you know it was consensual?

I think the programmers made them do it!

When you have a game like that

[GuitarNeophyte]

When you have a game that features things that the majority of people have always wanted to do at some time or another, but didn't want to go to jail for it or they just didn't want to hurt people in real life, it doesn't matter what the rating it, it'll always sell like crazy.

Oh, and if you can jump out of a car, and let it keep going and run over gangstas and drug lords.

It won't hurt it.

Might even raise the sales of it, truth be told.

Luke
----
Like computers, but are frustrated about explaining things hundreds of times over? Send them to ChristianNerds.com

Re:When you have a game like that

[bedroll]

When you have a game that features things that the majority of people have always wanted to do at some time or another

I've always wanted to do a polygonal woman, they're just hard to find outside of gaming.

Re:When you have a game like that

[th3space]

Personally, this whole HotCoffee row has bred in me a renewed interest in playing GTA:SA, as well as GTA:VC and GTAIII. You know what my favorite part is? Having sex with the hookers...and then killing them. (ps - not trolling, being dead on serious here)

Re:When you have a game like that

[ipfwadm]

My favorite thing to do in GTAIII was sit up in the parking garage (that way the helicopters couldn't get you) and shoot people in the head with the sniper rifle. My roommate enjoyed doing that so much I eyed him suspiciously him when the DC sniper stuff started.

Re:When you have a game like that

[steve_ellis]

It is entirely possible that keeping the product hot and in the news was the whole point.

Could Rockstar have done this on purpose to increase sales? If the 'hackers' hadn't exposed HotCoffee, Rockstar could have seeded the idea. As I see it, the only real downside to Rockstar is that HotCoffee was exposed too soon--the game seemed to still be selling quite well.

-se

Re:Good!

[Angry Toad]

I'll be taking it back to the shop as soon as possible and demanding they exchange it with a copy that is suitable for a child of his age.

Good idea. GTA is, with or without sexual content, utterly inapproriate for a 12 year old.

In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

This just in. "Real Life" has been re-rated AO by ESRB because it features the same violent and sexual content as GTA:SA.

Quote the leader: "We first noticed this when we found out there are a lot of people being invited for 'hot coffee' everywhere! This has to stop! We had no idea sex is available to everyone"

From now on, life is rated AO which means anybody under the magical age of 18 is no longer allowed to have a life.

The Sims

[Anonymous Coward]

There were hundreds of adult themed addons for the sims and the content of many of them was a lot more explicit than the Hot Coffee mod. It's ESRB Rating is T (Teen) and it is specifically designed for people to produce whatever addons they want. Considering The Sims franchise is just as famous, if not more than GTA, how come nobody cares?

The ESRB screwed themselves

[AxemRed]

According to their own criteria, the game should have been AO from the beginning. http://www.esrb.org/esrbratings_guide.asp "Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity." The whole game is a scene of intense violence.

Who's Responsibility

[kortex]

This is just another example of a really messed up society. Through the years, things that are considered 'bad for kids' has constantly evolved and changed. There was a time that saying 'damn' on TV was completely taboo. Today I routinely hear much worse on broadcast (let's not even talk about cable!). Every generation has had it's gripes about what the kids during that time were watching, doing, playing and saying.

Unfortunately, there has yet to be a generation where the parents take reponsibility for educating and censoring (if necessary)the content available in their own homes. Parents that do take the time to take care of their own are not the ones screaming their heads off. People argue 'What about when my kids are not at home?!'. To that I say, educate your kids! I believe kids can be taught right from wrong. Nothing will keep children from doing 'bad' or seeing 'bad' things once in a while. This is a part of growing up and part of the learning process.

If we look at this graph....

[PhotoBoy]

... we can see how the ESRB and Hillary Clinton operate.

The biggest problem might not have been the sex.

[Captain Sarcastic]

The big problem wasn't that there was sex involved in GTA:SA. So you have ways of moving the pixels so that it looks like some guy is banging the hell out of some girl. Big deal.

The major problem was with the timeline:

1. Rockstar tells the MSRB, "Yeah, OK, we have some adult-themed material in this game, but that's why we figure an M-rating to be about right, because there's nothing explicit in the game."
2. Hot Coffee comes out, showing the sex, and Rockstar says "Those @#$%ing modders! They must have inserted that porn!"
3. Rockstar comes out and says, "Well, OK, the modders didn't insert the porn - it was already in there, but no fair drawing adverse inferences!"

It wasn't so much the sex, but the lies that got people up in arms about Rockstar. (No videotape this time, at least) We don't like being made to look like fools, and so the ESRB lowered the boom on GTA:SA.

I, on the other hand, am willing to throw brickbats all of the involved parties:

• Rockstar for lying about what content it did provide and for trying to blame the modders who exposed (pardon the expression) the hidden stuff;
• The ESRB for having such a skewed viewpoint about the difference between "M" and "AO"
• Above all, the parents who bought the game for Little Johnny and Janey who ignored the "M" rating and the criminal and violent subtext of the game, but were shocked, shocked! when sex reared its head.

A plague, not on one, not on both, but on all your houses!

Hurricane in a teacup

[AdamD1]

What baffles me the most is that M (for mature) is rated as being for customers "17 and older", while AO is for customers "18 and older." That's not a huge difference. One year. What does a 17 year old not know that an 18 year old is suddenly an expert at these days? Especially since I regularly get my ass handed to me by 16 years olds (or younger) on many online games, I fail to see how a rating system would make any sort of difference to a game like this. If I'm 16, I'll probably find the means to get this game one way or the other.

Also: there isn't any nudity in this game (not even, specifically, in the hot coffee segment where one would expect it.) It's quite obviously cartoonishly presented. I can understand the uproar over Manhunt, which is by comparison very detailed and brutally violent. But this is to my mind one of the most ridiculous "debacles" I've ever heard of. Anyone who assumes that a game named "Grand Theft Auto" is for teenagers is living in a fantasy world. Why it takes a sticker saying "AO" versus "M" to drive this home is beyond me. Does this mean I can make a game called "Assassinate The President" or "Serial Rapist" and expect the rating to determine whether Walmart will carry it or not?

And where are the freakin' parents? Out carjacking?

ad

Re:Hurricane in a teacup

[fermion]

What concerns me about this is fantasy and how it relates to entertainment. I think we have violent entertainment becuase it not only satisfies a natural urge in some of us to be violent, but also societal tendencies to solve problems with violence. Likewise, the sexual is minimized because of our societal tendency not to, as a whole, be loving and caring people. Therefore, and this is really scary, the sexual is often presented in a negative or violent way, which may in fact be my only concern with this game.

What also worrying is that most teens will not have experience with real violence that can put what they see on the screen in a proper context. OTOH, most teens will have some, if limited, sexual experience that can be used to put what on the screen in context. Anyone who has had sex knows most of the sex on the screen is contrived, while most of us, even adults, can't say that about the shooting.

Certainly many kids have seen a date sort of topless, and nude pictures, but I hope most kids have not seen someone shot or shot someone.

It was about deceit

[Shivetya]

The sex part is being used by those trying to excuse the fact that they knowningly did something they were not supposed to. In other words they were trying to trivialize it by attempting to put the blame on the people who complained!

Just because your values or my values do not align themselves with others in no way makes ours superior.

Many of these programmers do act like jerks. Ever spent time dealing with MMORPG developers and you quickly find out there are many jerks and too many have god-complexes. When you point out things they should not do they quickly turn around attacking the person pointing out the issue instead of dealing with the issue.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[Rasta Prefect]

On the one hand, in the USA, you can easily buy a rifle or a machine-gun with ammunitions.

Uhhh...No. A rifle? Yes. A machine gun? You can get one, provided a clear criminal record, but it's not exactly easy.

So, this whole thing in summary

[mcc]

1. Anyone who previously thought that the ESRB was a good idea and defended it on the basis that if the industry self-regulated it would provide a bulwhark against censorship from outside has just been proven wrong.
   
   The ESRB has been demonstrated a tool for censorship from outside, as demonstrated by the fact that a game has just been effectively banned from sale in the U.S., by way of it being moved from M to AO, based on nothing but a targeted public smear campaign. The content even in the modded "AO" version of GTA:SA is significantly tamer than the sexual content that which is already present in a very large number of M games.
   
2. Anyone within the Hillary Clinton / etc "blame video games" camp who previously claimed that they just cared about protecting "the children" has just been shown to be lying.
   
   This has been demonstrated by their extended attack on a game that was already "mature, 17 or older only, not to be sold to minors" with a "strong sexual content" label, an attack which apparently only ended with the effective banning of the game. Apparently these people don't care about children, they just care about either political self-promotion or imposing their morality on others, and children are just a tool to achieve this.

Re:"True" Fallout

[themishkin]

I was going to buy this game in the end of August before college started up again. Instead, I'm going to go buy it today after work, not because I actually want the "Hot Coffee" mod, but I don't want a shitty version of the game. I have no idea how far Rockstar will go in "changing" the original release, and I prefer my games uncensored. As far as the AO stuff goes, I think the shower scene at the end of Tomb Raider 2 was much more enjoyable than this GTA:SA clip. (for those of you who finished the game without cheats) And, the graphics were about the same between these two games =D

What I find interesting is...

[RamboIII]

...that in the other games, back to GTAIII, you could ALWAYS have sex with a prostitute. You can pull the vehicle up and wait. The hooker walks up, talk to you a while, and then get in. After that you have to go find a place to "rock the vehicle", AND you get more life, so it's encouraged. How is this any different? I mean, nobody raised a stink about it at least.

AO should get the new content

[Fr05t]

Hell if I'm going to buy an AO game I better be getting what is promised on the box!

Next weeks headline : "Geek sues Rockstar for false claims of explicit sex in GTA".

Quote from the article "Steve purchased GTA:SA hoping to get a glimpse of naked women engaged in sexual acts, but instead found himself searching Rockstar's website for a 'patch'. Turns out Rockstar didn't live up to their promise of hot sex and coffee - the only way to get to that content is from a program made by some Swedish guy who doesn't even work for the game developer."

Re:Good!

[tolkienfan]

With the sex and without the violence.

I'd rather my kids appreciate sex than violence.

Double edged sword

[Iriel]

Glad it over. There, I said it too.

On one hand, I agree that this game was already intended for an audience far older than the children that lawmakers and soccer moms are trying to protect. However, with no forms of penalty to enforce the ratings on these games, nobody can expect them to follow. They're only mild suggestions without any kind of fine for selling to/buying for children under the age recommended by rating.

However, R* is also quite guilty of deliberatly hiding an easter egg in the game that (in America, anyway) dramatically changes some peoples' view on it. In a country where sex is almost strictly taboo, it was purposely sneaky of R* to put the Hot Coffee material into the game because we, as gamers and geeks, have already proven many years ago that if it can be cracked, it will. They can't just unhook the content and expect it to be done, and that's not what they did. R* left it in there for the people curious enough to find a way to get Hot Coffee.

I hope both of these parties can learn something from this. Ratings aren't effective without being enforced and unhooked content can and will always be found, cracked, and distributed on the internet within an hour.

Re:Double edged sword

[bentcd]

It is unreasonable to expect of a scottish development team that they realize exactly how perverted US morality is. I doubt anyone there even raised an eyebrow at the content and dropped it mostly because it wasn't a particularly good minigame.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[harks]

you *can* see sex in a video game if you are over 18. It's a rating change, not a ban.

Re:The biggest problem might not have been the sex

[iainl]

If you really, really want to carry that gag to the end, there actually is videotape involved.

When games are entered for rating to the ESRB, to speed the process up the developer has to summarise what the main points that could cause its rating to go up are, and supply video of them occurring. If the ESRB had to play through all 60+ hours of every RPG it rates just to make a decision, they'd never get through all the games they have to certify.

The whole operation relies on trusting that the developer has done what they say they've done, which is why the ESRB felt they had to punish Rockstar in the only way available to them - as a purely advisory board, fines and bans aren't really possible.

Grand Theft Elections: Ohio Edition

[bmasel]

You drive around picking up voting machines in Black precincts, and collecting rare coins...

The hidden content allows you to tweak other players scores.

This whole thing is just stupid.

[Ariannus]

This has been bugging me ever since the story first came out, and while I am sure other people have said it before, I think it needs to be said again. First of all it is an M rated game, anybody not old enough to see the scenes shouldn't be playing the game. Secondly, the scenes were cut from the game, they weren't intended as an easter egg to unlock in the game. The scenes were disabled and it took a hack to make them available. As to why the code was left in, there are a few simple explanations: 1. The programmer was lazy and it was quicker / easier to disable the scenes that to remove the code. (It may have even been originally written to be easily disabled in case it was cut.) 2. Deleting the code caused some random bug that was too difficult to fix. 3. The decision to cut the scenes was made shortly before the game went into production and they wanted to make as few changes to the code as possible. This whole thing has been blown ridicously out of proportion. The bottom line is that parents need to read the rating and the game description on the box. If they still are not sure then they need to go to Google and search for (NAME_OF_GAME review). There is also the possibility that oh I don't know they could be a responsible parent and just tell the kid "No you are too young to play this game. Maybe you can get it when you are older."

TV vs. GTA

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone exlain this to me: Last night i was watching "That 70's show" with i belive is teen orianted program and sow a trailer for "Devils Rejects" during a comershal brake. 30 second trailer shows women raped, burned alive, people shot and cut apart. Now how is this aceptoble when a video game that you can not buy unless you are 17, and then have to go online, find a mod, download that mod, in order to to see digitaly rendered and not wery realistic simulated sex sine.

Re:I'm really puzzled

[oudzeeman]

Women in Maine have top-free equity (legally they can be top-free anywhere a man can - beach, park, city pool, etc). It isn't very common though. Also a judge dropped indecent exposure charges on two college women that ran around a block naked one night -- the judge ruled that Maine law required exposing genitals and female genitals are not externally visible. They talked about changing the law, but I don't know if they ever did.

I was just in montreal and I was fairly surprised how strict the rules were in the strip clubs (although the contact dance rules are more liberal that a lot of clubs in the States, there are also quite a few clubs in the States that blow away the montreal clubs in terms how much contact is allowed)

what I didn't understant is bars/strip clubs said we weren't allowed to buy shots unless we were drinking beer

I don't hate America

[robyannetta]

When will these jackass lawmakers learn that the only reason they're here -- is because of sex!!!

Free speech, eh?

[Mr. Underbridge]

On the other hand you can't see consensual sex in a video game ? Urrr.

Yes you can. I, as an old man, have the same right to go buy it now as I did before. Seriously, the big deal is that now you have to be 18 to buy it and not 17? Wow, that's terrible!

On the other hand, in Europe, many kinds of speech that aren't "correct" are banned. Now who has a free speech problem?

Re:I'm really puzzled

[operagost]

On the one hand, in the USA, you can easily buy a rifle or a machine-gun with ammunitions [sic].

Oh really? Try to do that in, say, the state of New Jersey. Let me know how you do. In fact, just try to buy any kind of "machine-gun" anywhere. I assume you mean a full-auto capable rifle. There's a federal statute which has made that very hard since the days of the Tommy-gun.

On the other hand, in more libertarian states like Pennsylvania you CAN easily buy a long gun (or even a handgun) in a shop and walk out with it. Problem is, there's this pesky computerized background check that's pretty well assured of finding your weapons-related assault conviction and denying the sale.

Why are we even paying attention to this?

[fahrvergnugen]

Fact: The developers at Rockstar thought that it might be fun to include a sex mini-game. Fact: This mini-game was built, but ultimately scrapped. Maybe this was because it pushed the game over the line with the ESRB, or maybe it's because the mini-game is not really funny and not very fun. Fact: There is no sex mini-game included in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas as shipped.

I repeat: There is no sex mini-game included in Grant Theft Auto: San Andreas as shipped. I've played the entire game, end to end, and while it does let me beat people down with a giant black dildo if I feel so inclined, the sex mini-game is just not in there.

That is not to say that the code for the sex mini-game is not on the DVD, but it is not in the game. This is an important distinction. If the mini-game is present on the DVD, but there is no way to access it while playing the game as shipped, then that sequence isn't really part of the game, any more than a deleted scene on a DVD is part of the movie.

It is common practice in software projects to strip out features as the release date approaches. Maybe the feature just doesn't work right, or it does work right but isn't really as good as everyone thought it would be, or maybe it introduces bugs, or maybe it pisses off media decency watchdogs. For whatever reason, features are disabled. This is usually done not by deleting the feature from the project entirely, but rather by deleting the calls that activate it. Deleting large chunks of code carries a huge risk in the later stages of software development, because it's easy to make a mistake that will break the build. If someone makes a mistake and deletes the wrong class file when they're taking out un-used code for something like, say, a sex mini-game that management has decided not to include in the final product, they could all too easily cause just such a problem.

Breaking the build is a Very Bad Thing, especially in gigantic projects like Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, which cost $50 million to develop and employed hundreds of people. At the end of the software development cycle, new builds of the program are made every night. These are copied and sent out to teams of testers, sometimes hundreds of them, who run through the program and look for bugs. These bugs get fixed, a new build is made that night incorporating those bugfixes, and the cycle continues.

If the build is broken, nobody works. If the testers don't get a new build, then they can't find new bugs, because they're still running into the old ones. If the developers don't get a new build, they can't fix other bugs, because they don't know how their changes will interact with changes they've already made. Everyone winds up sitting idle, getting some sleep, talking to their significant others, and maybe realizing that working 20 hours a day for 7 days a week at substandard wages sucks. Maybe they begin to question their sexless and empty lives, and maybe they start chatting with each other about how a union would fix all this mess before their jobs are shipped off to China, and it's too late to do anything about it.

Morale suffers, the whole project slips, deadlines are missed, analysts revise your publisher's stock downwards, and you suddenly need a new job.

So instead of making a major change like deleting the entire mini-game, it's much safer to make a small change, like deleting the parts of code that start the mini-game. If there is no way to invoke certain parts of a program, then those parts may as well not exist. This is so common in software projects, both for business and entertainment programs, that the current controversy surrounding Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas seems from the perspective of the software world like a tempest in a teapot. Grand Theft Auto III had code for a half-completed fourth island on the DVD. Knights of the Old Republic II, which is notorious for its terrible and seemingly unfinished ending, had the voice acting and artwork for

Re:Why are we even paying attention to this?

[fonetik]

Another perfect example to prove this case is that there are pieces left from a skateboard that was going to be included. The icon can still be found for it, but they pulled the skateboard as a vehicle. (Read more about it here: http://www.gtasanandreas.net/weapons/) And there is even a mod to allow you to switch the shovel with the skateboard, but you still can't ride it. They didn't remove all of it because it may have caused problems to the build. They removed just enough so that you wouldn't notice it.

But I think all of us know that this is far more important than silly little things like the Downing St memo or Karl Rove and his crazy antics. After all, this affects children!

Re:Why are we even paying attention to this?

[greg1104]

Your reaction matched my initial one. I've since come to realize I was wrong. Parents who are hoping the ESRB rating process can help them select titles for their children don't care one bit about the realities of the development process. The clarification developers are getting here is that if a title is shipped with a certain rating, all of the content on the media should meet that rating, whether it shows up in the official game or not. As you point out, this will increase the cost of doing business for companies shiping products with ESRB labels on them, but everyone on the rating side of things considers that the developer's problem. We should actually be glad that this is the title involved in setting this precedent, because the outrage here is muted by the fact that it's hard to find a parent who approved of the official GTA:SA who is then going to care about the additional dirt of Hot Coffee.

I see someone else has already posted a great example of the kind of easter egg that could really cause trouble; don't miss the story of unlocking Freak Show mode in "Happy Bunny and the Carnival Mystery" at
http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=156674&c id=13135433

I hate to nitpick......

[fallen1]

but your statement is only partially correct. Yes, we can go out and buy a rifle fairly easily but Americans cannot go out and _legally_ buy a machine-gun (a fully automatic weapon) without a lot of background checks, a class III Federal Firearms License/permit (I believe I have the right one), and paying a fee per year to own said weapon. Plus, I believe with the license/permit it goes that if someone uses a machine-gun weapon in a crime in your area the police/FBI/etc can drop by your house and ask to check your weapon plus they have the ballistics on file as well. So the notion that Americans all own Uzis, M-16s, and other fully automatic weapons is highly overblown. Yes, there are a LOT of these style weapons in private citizens hands but according to FBI statistics, less than 1% of ALL privately-owned fully automatic weapons have ever been used in the comission of a crime. Please reread that - less than 1%. That means that 99% of the crimes that are committed with fully automatic weapons are done so with illegally obtained weapons. Hence my statement to everyone who talks about gun control and removing guns from private citizens hands - "When the police/FBI/etc. can make criminals follow the law, I'll consider giving up my gun. Until a criminal, who BY DEFINITION doesn't follow the law anyway, give up his guns I will not give up mine." I mean, why should I _not_ have the same degree of latitude to defend myself as the criminal has to attack me?

As far as the consensual sex in a video game, yeah, I think American prudish behavior is completely fucked - pun intended :)

Re:I'm really puzzled

[nra1871]

"assault weapons" as defined in the ban are NOT machine guns. They are semi-automatic (meaning ONE bullet fires with each pull of the trigger). They are defined as assault weapons because they have a folding stock, or a bayonet holder, etc. Bascially things that make them look scary. It bears repeating, since people just don't get it, that these are NOT machine guns.

Mod parent up

[IsoRashi]

Finally, someone with their head on straight. Mod parent up!

Well once you mention the Web...

[snowwrestler]

You're talking about easy access to explicit content anyway. If a kid's going to go through all the trouble of finding, downloading, and implementing an easter egg patch or a mod, why wouldn't he just surf over to the BangBus for some XXX action and skip all the hard work?

Re:Good!

[SpecBear]

I'll be taking it back to the shop as soon as possible and demanding they exchange it with a copy that is suitable for a child of his age.

You: "I'd like to exchange this copy of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for a version that's suitable for my 12-year old."

Shop Employee: "Certainly. We can easily do that with a simple modification to the retail version of the game." [breaks disk in half] "Here ya go."