Slashdot Mirror
TiVo User's Fears Explored
elrous0 writes "In spite of TiVo's continuing insistence that recent appearances of 'red flag' recordings are mere "glitches," the AP is reporting that customers are beginning to get nervous about the new content-blocking feature added in a recent TiVo upgrade. The story quotes Matt Haughey, of PVRblog.com, as saying 'TiVo would be of limited utility in the future if the studios were allowed to do this with regular broadcast content ... This is like cell-phone jammers. What if you couldn't talk on your cell phone? If customers can't do something with their TiVo that they could in the past, they will stop using it.'" We've touched on this topic in the past.
ArsTechnica's Ken "Caesar" Fisher has written a rather insightful article about just this issue. Well worth the read.
As "Caesar" stresses in his article, DRM on TiVo is nothing new. There's really no point in getting steamed at TiVo about this...they're victims of DRM just as much as their customers.
If we're going to fix this problem, we need to do it at this level...not at TiVo's level.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
This is related to a previous article to which I posted my intent were tivo/"the industry" to begin to rein in my ability to:
I would pretty much dump my tivo... since those are the features of tivo that make television palatable. Since that related article, I've informally caucused friends and family with the possible changes in tivo services/features. Every single one of them agreed they'd not have use for tivo either. (And, they were all very concerned that this could happen -- especially after I verified with each one they were actually on the release of tivo that had these new "features".)
From what I've read, and my correspondence, tivo has resisted as well as they could for as long as they could. I wonder how it must feel at tivo these days when these fucktards start imposing their questionable (unethical) "standards" unilaterally. Sheesh.
Kind of reminds me of and old, old, old Peanuts cartoon... Lucy sees Linus playing with her toys, and in rage takes them all away. Linus is crestfallen, and Lucy taking pity as she walks away tosses him a rubber band, "Here, you can play with this". The next few frames show Linus becoming increasingly fascinated and entertained by and with the rubber band until finally Linus is totally in rapture. Lucy comes back, angrily rips that rubber band from Linus and says, "I didn't mean for you to have that much fun with it!".
They are of no use to me anymore. A slightly better interface than the rest just doesn't cut it.
SearchIRC - Now with live chat directory!
The AP article seems to be discussing exactly what was already discussed to death both here and on the TiVo-user sites. What's going to be different between this discussion and the linked, previous, Slashdot discussion?
To build your own PVR with MythTV or BeyondTV. It's more work, but you have more control.
noise tripping this flag seems unlikely Other commentary on O'reilly blog
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
The growing concern by broadcasters and Hollywood puts TiVo in a spot. However, I think standing by their customers and taking this challenge head-on is a good approach. Their customers want the features they have grown accustomed to. I think it's in their best interest to fight for their customers here. Like digital music, TV is at the crossroads of a new way of viewing movies and shows. We can hope they stand at this juncture and say, "Look, Guys, this is not 1975. It's time to move into the new age here."
It's only a matter of days before a hack will surface on how to bypass any anti-recording-flag. The underground TiVo community is huge and need not worry die hard TiVo fans. Will it prevent casual TV recording? Maybe. Will it hurt the TiVo company? Probably. Can we still record what ever we want? Sure! Jason
I was just on the verge of diving into the modernity and purchase/subscribe to a DVR. Tivo was one of the top choices - but forget it now. What other good choices are there, really? Besides spending a few grand on building my own.
TiVo has caved into the content producers, and handed over control of the DRM process to them. The recent accidental flagging of content in this way proves it is out of TiVo's hands, and within the realm of control of the broadcaster. That makes it only a matter of time before broadcasters will begin to use this feature. If TiVo wants to retain loyal customers, they need to take back control: they should require digital authorization codes for DRM features and DRM the DRM so that only TiVo can authorize DRM restrictions on content. Unfortunatley, even then TiVo users will have to worry about whether TiVo will allow DRM on content only in reasonable situations, or if TiVo will cave into monetary or legal pressures and allow it on anything the broadcasters want.
The end of TiVo's usefullness is approaching quickly. Probably time to get some more developers working on the open source alternatives.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
Exactly why is TiVo adding this functionality? I cannot for the life of me figure it out. Is there a law somewhere that says they must? Or are they just afraid of the cost of a legal battle with the **AAs? Are the media companies so powerful now that they can impose thier will with just the treat of a lawsuit?
Str8Dog
using System.Darkside; public
Tivo is great, and a few days of using it is the reason why I've been unable to watch TV without a PVR since. But for my own use, it's all about MythTV, and this story is exactly the reason. Pick whatever free PVR you want if you don't like Myth.
And if you don't like any free PVR, and are going to say something like "Free PVR X is too difficult to set up" or "X has a crappy interface compared to Tivo", I'm going to agree. But consider that in five years your Tivo is going to have the same usability and fewer features, while the free PVR will get easier to set up and use, will have more features, and above all will still be Free.
Tivo was all about taking control of your TV experience. The industry doesn't like that, and they are slowly going to take that control back. The Free PVRs, much like Free Software itself, is a way for you to keep that control.
The enemies of Democracy are
TiVo voluntarily added this crap to their product, so it is their fault.
(I don't completely believe Caesar's article. What law forces TiVo to implement DRM? FCC broadcast flag approval is a red herring, since the broadcast flag was killed.)
I have watched and laughed as Tivo has bent over and taken everything from the industry. I am both a ReplayTV and MythTV owner. I don't understand why or how Tivo does what they do. If I bought a box with functionality X,Y,Z, and later Y is ammended in a way that causes some controversy (in a way I do not like), then I think Tivo has broken a contract.
Throughout it all, my ReplayTV experience has gone un-touched, I still have commercial skipping and the like. The way Replay skirts the issue is that they change model numbers and can then change the feature set. My 4500 has commercial skip where the 5500 does not. How Tivo is legally able to change it on all models is beyond me.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
I cancelled my TiVo subscription 4 days ago - I'm now using BeyondTV. I had the original model of the TiVo, and have been paying the monthly on it since TiVo first came out (yeah, I know, in hindsight I should have bought the lifetime subscription). I loved my TiVo - it really changed how I watched TV. But what I wanted in a DVR is something that records TV, keeps it until I tell it to get rid of it, etc.
:)
The TiVo rep argued with me that they had "resolved" the problems with shows getting deleted. I understand that it wasn't intentionally turned on, but the fact is the device now supports and allows broadcasts to muck around with this kind of thing. They offered to knock the monthly down 1/2, but I'm not interested any more.
I don't like the direction the company is heading in, so I've switched. I'm not going back, unless there's a radically change in their direction - and even then I'm no likely to. I like having control over my DVR - dual headed, 1TB storage, DVD burner, can ADD shows to the machine (and get them off), and I can extend and expand that machine as I see fit.
Long live BTV!
-Greg
This should not be hard. All the hardware is present and you have a instant DVR that can do more than what Tivo did. Maybe even use a usb dvd drive to put movies on dvd and such.
Sadly DirectTivo's probably are out of the picture for this.
and later the company takes away some of that capability, do you have some legal basis for claiming false advertising, or reneging on contract, or something like that?
I think this would be more of a question for people who paid for a lifetime subscription, but it also throws into the question the value of any future lifetime subscriptions, because if their contract allows them to start adding restrictions after the fact, is it really of much value?
Perhaps a similar question could have been first pursued back when the company started venturing into adding advertising into the skip features, etc., as well.
Most people I know who have one swear by their TiVos. I'm probably the rare Slashdotter that doesn't have one yet, but my reasons are very simple: I hate TV and the vast majority of the content available. I have a few shows that routinely take up my time, and they're on at shitty hours (damn you, [adult swim]!), but I can't justify buying a TiVo just to watch 3 or 4 shows in the middle of the afternoon rather than 1:00 AM.
I'm wondering if most people don't feel the same way, considering the response to this DRM seems to be "I'd have to get rid of my TiVo and stop watching TV". Given this, doesn't it seem that IP TV and true on-demand services might get a big boost out of TiVo's being crippled with DRM? If broadcasters can't sell commercials they won't buy shows, and if shows can't sell themselves to broadcasters they inevitably have to start selling directly to the people who want to watch.
Basically: might this be a blessing in disguise?
C
The Sun is proof that we can't even do fire properly.
I agree with the first post: DRM is the issue, not specifically TIVO.
//e (I had a TRS-80 Color Computer before that, but I'm talking about my first usable computer). IIRC, games were $20-$30 a piece. Applewriter //e was $200. Programs were using heavy copy protection. I remember reading a lot of articles about it, and one point was that any disk that could be copy-protected could be broken. Even when IBM became bigger than Apple, for a while copy protection was big. I remember going in and using Don Lancaster's disassembly of Applewriter //e to figure out how to make my own copies of Applewriter //e so I could start modifying it on my own (and leave my precious, licensed copy safe and untouched). I stayed with Apple for a good while because it was fun, because I knew the monitor ROM closely, and because I could not afford to upgrade. Then I got a good deal on an Amiga. By the time I got back into the "mainline" again, Windows 95 was big.
//e and programs like Locksmith were all over the place -- usually as a pirated copy in the basement of a teen uber-geek who had hundreds of copied 5 1/4" disks.
I remember when I got my first real computer, an Apple
At that point almost no programs had copy protection. It had gone out of style because it cost more to keep ahead of the crackers than to just put it out and make what you could on honest customers. I remember in the material I read by Apple crackers, they pointed out that any disk the computer could run, copy protected or not, HAD to be able to be read by the boot loader, so at least the first sector had to be easily readable. From there on, a good cracker could figure it out one way or the other, as long as he took the time.
We know that any form of DRM is breakable, not just through brute force, but by reverse engineering. Yes, there's the DMCA, but tha is not going to stop cracking programs from being easily found, just as pirated software was easy to find in the days of Apple
This is just a new market. Software publishers have gotten used to knowing there are unauthorized copies of their work, in perfect digital form, being traded among the public. This same idea scares the life out of RIAA and MPAA, but eventually they'll realize that it costs more, in the long run, to keep everything protected than to just release it as is and make what you can from the millions of honest customers. They've already started to change their positions on this. When Napster came out, there was no way they wanted ANY online distribution. ITunes changed that. The studio making the Harry Potter movies announced in a press release that large batches of Harry Potter III were released without any copy protection to see how it went, since protection was so expensive to incorporate and license.
It'll take a long while, especially with Microsoft doing the Harold Hill routine (from "The Music Man") where they say, "Hey, all these people will still your stuff. You've got trouble, right here in River City," and, at the same time saying, "But I'll tell you how to fight that trouble. Just pay us tons of money and we'll make sure you don't lose tons of money. We'll protect it all!" Eventually, though, the added expense and work needed for protection and the paranoia of the MPAA and RIAA will start fading and we'll see something much more reasonable, just like we did in the evolution of software marketing.
Add to that the growth of FOSS and people with guts, like the gov. in Mass., who are beginning to see the value in open formats and software that doesn't cost a ton of money, and eventually, after all the fears are shown groundless, we'll see the entire data and content market become commodity markets, just like the expensive long distance and cell phone markets have become.
Series 2 has been network ready since it came out of the box. I bought mine in 2002 and it has never touched a phone line. As long as you bought a plain vanilla Linksys USB adapter you were good to go. The trick was to set the dial-out number to #401, which would initiate the network connection.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
This sounds so wrong to me. There is no law mandating that TiVo include these features yet. If there was, then every VCR sold would need them too - and all the satellite boxes already sold would be upgraded with it.
TiVo still is the problem. They're doing more to aid the content creation industry than they are for their paying customers. I have yet to hear of any copyright statute in law that says a copyright holder can regulate your use of content after you've purchased it - or received it for free over the air.
LET TIVO KNOW HOW MUCH THIS ANGERS YOU, or you're in line to lose more than this!
Mentioning it to Congress can't hurt either.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
That app works awesome on an old laptop I converted into a PVR - BeyondTV choked hard, and MythTV doesn't support my USB2 MPEG encoder.
Your hybrid is not saving the environment. Its purpose is to make you feel good about buying something.
As I understand it, this flag is part of the new macrovision system. Macrovision is done using the extra non visible part of the signal (where the closed captioning is...extra scan lines at the end of each frame). There have been tools out there for years that strip out this extra data from the signal (just saw one at CompUSA for $80).
Silly, silly, lad
What do you think the EULA on 99% of the software says:
a) We promise our software will not damage your system or data in a way.
b) We in no way accept responsibility for damage done to your system or data. Install and use at your own risk.
The user agreements are to protect the company's interests, not the user's. The user agreements are to cover their butts, so if something happens they can say "But you accepted the service agreement that says it's alright." Heck, they probably do more to tie the hands of the users instead of the company.
I gaurantee you somewhere in Tivo's agreement (probably somewhere prominent) they say that they reserve the right to modify their services and update their software whenever and however they feel necessary. Almost all service-based products allow for this.
If there was, then every VCR sold would need them too - and all the satellite boxes already sold would be upgraded with it. Actually, satellite receivers have had this for a long time. I've only seen it once or twice, but my receivers have shown lock icons on random shows, and output macrovision when playing them, to prevent recording to VCR.
Twice now this week at 1am my TiVo prompted me about a program to record. The first time I let it assuming it was a season pass I had set up. It switched to an infomercial. It wasn't a normal recording and I had a time switching it back to the channel I was watching. Last night it happened a second time exactly the same way. When it prompts to change it doesn't tell you what it's switching to just it's some kind of TiVo extra. I couldn't find my controller in time and wound up going through the same nightmare switching back. I called up TiVo and after an hour wait was told it wasn't them doing it. I think the agent was sincere but I question that some one at TiVo central isn't test driving passively recording infomercials. They are definately doing it since all sorts of TiVo logos come on while it's switching. I told them flat out if I can't block it the third time it happens I cancel my service period. It's going to cost a bundle to set up a PC based system but I'd rather do that than pay TiVo $13 a month to record infomercials. Sad to see TiVo go down this road. It was fun while it lasted but I'm sick of being sold to 24/7. I already turn off the sound routinely during commercials because they boost the sound during commercials. Yes some guy going for a beer will still hear it but I never hear them at all so you can try to sell to the guy in the kitchen. Obnoxious advertising doesn't work. People just shut down after awhile and the solution isn't more advertising.
Because a Tivo generally does what people want it to do. Of all Tivo owners I know, and it's quite a few, I'm the only one who even follows it enough to know about this issue. Tivo still acts as an easy digital VCR with nice software and a generally reliable schedule. That's what most people are after.
I don't know a single one in real life, as opposed to message boards, who give a flip about transfering shows to their PCs. Most don't even bother with PPV movies, which is what the expiration flag is intended for. It's just not that important. If they really, desperately want a season of a show, they buy the box set for $60 rather than spend who knows how long formatting and burning their own DVDs.
That's the thing people who push the "roll your own" solutions forget: the TIME involved. They place no value on their time. I have the skill level to do a MythTV. Heck, I have the skill to WRITE a DVR solution, but I read accounts of installs, and I'd have to be on a steady diet of boilermakers and cheap crack to waste my time like that for something as trical as television.
And if a network activates the flag to prevent recording of their show? Fuck 'em. Who cares? No Tivo owners will watch. The network is just hurting themselves.
We've touched on this topic in the past.
They misspelled "dupe".
"If customers can't do something with their TiVo that they could in the past, they will stop using it."
Wouldn't that be a great day for the content owners.
Nobody skipping ads any more, nobody storing broadcast shows into digital format ready to be whisked away to other devices at the user's whim, etc. Heavens, the users might actually be persuaded to license the right to record a show in some not too distant future! Let's do it!
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
Depending on how much money you pay for the car, you might be able to travel 10 miles or 100 a day
This already exists.
Look at any lease agreement and you will see milage limitations. Since I commute about 100 Km (60 miles) per day, I am way above the lease limitations.
So I must pay more for the car.
- - - - - - - - - - -
I am a programmer. I am paid to produce syntax not grammar. Deal with it.
I know people are going to mention MythTV and other DIY solutions. But I was wondering, is there a project out to completely hack a Tivo into running MythTV? That way, if the worse case happens, Tivo owners with computer skills can just migrate to other software while still using the Tivo hardware.
I have yet to hear of any copyright statute in law that says a copyright holder can regulate your use of content after you've purchased it - or received it for free over the air.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but that's exactly what copyright is all about. Title 17 of the US Code tells you what you may or may not do with copyrighted content without the owner's permission. Specifcally, 17 USC 106 states:
The owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
Yes, there are stautory and judicial exceptions to that exclusivity, but there you go.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
As soon as there are SAT and Cable decoders that can be put into my home PC turned Myth box that allow me to record premium content the way I can with my hacked DTIVO I'll do it - in a heartbeat. However right now the best thing Myth seems to offer is OTA HD. Or maybe I could buy multiple cable\SAT decoder boxes and lash them to the Myth box with IRDA dongles? Umm, no thanks.
Myth is way cool, I LOVE the idea I really do. However it cannot give me what I *currently* have with the DTIVO being used in my home now. NO, *my* TIVO doesn't have this DRM code and *no* it won't have the code unless I allow it - and I'm not. I also do not see those FFWD commercials. I'm actually 2 revisions back with my DTIVO running software never meant for my box. (lol) I'll move to the 6.x code soon, really I will. But 7.2x can goto hell, I see no reason to run it and lots of reasons not to.
In any case, until I can get what I want out of MythTV I'm not wasting my time building one. OTA broadcast stuff I gave up years ago and I refuse to go back. The day they can decode my digital cable directly or attach to my SAT dish directly (as can be done in other countries apparently) I'll switch but not until then. If my TIVO suddenly stops working because they have blocked my hacks then I'll happily return it and my DIRECT subscription too.
P.S. Yes, I can do extraction, streaming, and other things on my box. http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/ The funny thing is that I'm far from bleeding edge with what I've done on my machine!
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Just because something is in the ToS doesn't mean that clause is enforcable, however.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
With Tivo's basic business model, you buy the Tivo as a way to connect to the Tivo service, and then pay a monthly fee to use that service. Under this model, what Tivo is doing is probaply okay in the same way that a cell phone company would be within the rights to change the terms of the service for peope who pay month-to-month or who have prepaid wireless.
On the other hand, I have a lifetime subscription for my Tivo. My understanding of the arrangement is that I paid a flat fee for a certain type of service, so I should be able to keep that kind of service even if Tivo changes what it offers to new customers.
But the trump of this is, I signed a contract and license agreement. So I can't complain - I knew this was probably coming, anyway. I think a lot of Tivoers are overreacting - so far it hasn't affected my service much, either - all my shows are still there by the time I get around to watching them, though we'll see what happens after this vacation I'm going on tomorrow.
Regardless, I think that the issue shouldn't be raised with Tivo, it should be raised with the EFF, the FCC, and, failing them, Congress.
I can't speak for cable users, but personally I find there to be something that's just a little bit insane about laws limiting personal use for something that's been blasted out into the universe for anyone with a radio antenna to receive. I'm fine with laws limiting redistribution and piracy, but if they're allowed to encode it into photons and then shoot them through my skull, I should be able to at least record it and watch it at my leisure, even 15 years later.
True.
Firstly there are illegal acts
hack the Tivo and you become our slave
The outrageous ones
hack the Tivo even a little and we get your car
Some that most wouldn't consider kosher
sell your Tivo to a 3rd party and we bill you for the cost of a new unit.
However, saying "we reserve the right to change our service as we see fit and thus modify the unit's software accordingly" is completely acceptable. Even doing something as draconion as, say, deleting shows after they've been stored for more than 14 days regaurdless of user input is would be acceptable. If they feel that their service shouldn't allow for long-term archiving for some content, so be it. I doubt anywhere in the user contract they "guarantee all content is archivable as long as the user wishes" because that could come back to bite them in the butt later.
You're choosing to use their service and thus must abide by these legally acceptable terms. You could always stop using the service, as the Tivo is functional without it (all-be-it not as nice). But that's your choice to continue on.
I agree to a large degree, but IMO Congress gets much of the blame.
An example I've used before is the DVD player. AFAIK there's no law requiring DVD manufacturers to enforce the instructions that prevent me from fast-forwarding or skipping whatever I want on the DVD (FBI/Interpol warnings, previews...). So why do they do it when its obvious that's not what consumers want?
The only answer I have is that they do this is that they need a valid DCSS key to play the content if they don't want to run afoul of the DMCA. To get that, they have to sign a license from the MPAA saying they will enforce their restrictions on DVD playback.
And who do we have to blame for the DMCA?
Tivo and other companies are going to run into this next. They can't "decrypt" or even provide the MPAA covered material without a license from the MPAA, and that license now stipulates enforcment of MPAA limitations.
This does go much farther than any other type of copyright protection. If I buy a book or a painting, I can color on it if I want, change the content, resell it, display it anywhere anytime I want. Welcome to the digital age.
Systm has a show on MythTV in a variety of formats including Ogg Vorbis+Theora. The show is licensed to share under a Creative Commons license, as are the other episodes of Systm.
Digital Citizen
The answer to the question asked is: (paraphrase) If you lost functionality on a device would you stop using it? The answer is: Of course. Why would you not? I especially would not buy the product. The same goes for expiring DVD's and CD's, drm radio etc
These techniques will not lead to more sales. I would bet money on that.
If a DRM flag prevents me from watching something I want, my TiVo will be listed on eBay immediately, and an XP MCE box will replace it.
I use a MythTV box that a friend programmed for me. I love it but it is essentially a black box to me (literally) because I am not a programmer.
I am trying to resolve what seems like a contradiction.
1 - open source software is constantly (on Slashdot) said to be the way to go.
2 - TiVo has an interface that appears to be an order of magnitude better than Myth
This seems like a contradiction in my mind.
If Myth is open source and so many people are improving it and making feature additions then how come the average fairly intelligent person (I am an engineer) can't, with a minimum of fuss, install the software, have it find the installed hardware and configure itself accordingly?
Myth is great because it's independent & free of restrictions. It does not seem up to par on some things you would expect to do easily (watch a DVD, Archive to DVD, program on screen, for which I use the mythweb function almost exclusively). This is my first experience with open source and it seems like it's not yet ready for prime time.
Buy a ReplayTV. Tivo isn't the only game in town. Slashdot has had a bunch of Tivo articles complaining about Tivo restrictions. ReplayTV has all the same features without any of that stupid stuff.
Cow Cube
>I have yet to hear of any copyright statute in law that says a copyright holder can regulate your use of content after you've purchased it - or received it for free over the air.
I'm not sure what you mean by this
He's obviously referring to personal use, not commercial use or redistribution or public performance.
So no, in this context copyright law places no restrictions. You do not need the copyright holder's permission to make Fair Use.
US Code tells you what you may or may not do with copyrighted content without the owner's permission.
Your terminology is inaccurate.
By law the previous poster would be the OWNER of the copy of the content. By law the copyright holder is NOT the owner of the particular copy he has. The copyright holder owns the copyright, but he does not own individual copies that he has given away. If you buy a book, you are the owner of they book and you are the owner of that particular copy of that story. If you tape a TV show then you are the owner of that particular copy. You are still of course subject to copyright law, but you ARE the owner of that copy.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.