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Blu-Ray Attacks Microsoft, Microsoft Bites Back
QT writes "Ars Technica has been following this week's next-gen DVD dramas closely. First, there's extensive coverage of the
reasons why Microsoft backed HD-DVD, which was primarily inspired by mandatory support for
copying discs to computers. The BDA, however, countered with an attack on Microsoft's reasons, and
Microsoft returned fire. Richard E. Doherty, Microsoft's head of the media entertainment technology convergence group, said that 50GB Blu-ray disc are in fact many years away. Is
MS playing games, or is Sony misrepresenting just how far along BD-ROM really is?" From the article: "HD DVD is proven to deliver 30GB capacity today, with the potential to deliver even greater capacity. The 50GB claim for BD-ROM discs is unproven and will not be available for many years to come, based on discussions with major Japanese and US replicators. Replicators not only do not have test lines running, they cannot even pre-order the equipment to begin evaluating this disc. They cannot judge the cost of these discs, or even whether they can be manufactured at all. Major replicators can mass manufacture 30GB HD DVD discs today and it's well understood that these discs will cost significantly less to manufacture than the lower-capacity 25GB BD discs."
We previously discussed this topic when the announcement came out.
"My disk is bigger"
"no mine is"
"No MY disk is bigger"
"Your disk doesnt exist"
"No yours doesnt"
"Yes it does"
since when is this a cross between kids arguing and politics?
I started out thinking Blu Ray would be the way to go but after reading some of the articles on Ars about it recently, I'm thinking HD DVD would be better. If the movie industry started making all new DVD releases as hybrid discs, there could be a very easy transition, and it could happen soon, from the sounds of things. Of course, things might not be as easy as they sound. Honestly, I don't care about the extra space. I use an external HD for backups, not my DVD burner. And I don't care how many discs my movies/tv shows come on. So I have to change it once an hour, I need to get up once in a while anyway.
Feel free to mod me "-1 - Angry Jerk".
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It's the porn industry that's going to decide, remember? Who cares what the industry people think...
/. so I thought I'd share my own.
Sorry, but I just wanted to pre-empt those that are inevitably going to claim that. At any rate, if the article (re: Microsoft) is true, then Blu-Ray probably won't succeed because HD-DVD is already here. I'm still pulling for Blu-Ray, for a variety of reasons, but realistically I realize that most consumers are going to see "HD-DVD" and think "Ooooh... a DVD that will play HD" (fallacy notwithstanding) whereas people will see Blu-Ray and think "What the... what's this crap?"
Alas, at this point it's still all speculation. Perfect for
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.
that a bird in the hand (ie. the standard that's available right now) is worth far more than two in the bush (ie the one that's only promised and is at least two years off)... I mean, which manufacturer is going to hold off on the promise of 50GB, when he can have 30GB right now??? only an idiot who's going to miss the boat and look very, very stupid.
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Looks like a set of very down-to-Earth, well argumented reasons. Maybe, for once, this will be a decision that is not grounded in anti-competitive behavior?
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
"or is Sony misrepresenting just how far along BD-ROM really is?"
Blu-ray is NOT Sony. Sony is just one of them.
I'm not one to believe Microsoft too readily, but let's face it: MS follows the cash, and if MS thinks that there's more money to be made with HD DVD, maybe they are on to something? It's not like VC-1 isn't in both formats, so what is to gain by not backing Blu-ray?
And, has anyone noticed all of this talk about the PS3 slipping to late fall 2006 for a launch?
It is like old times. The technology with the best marketing team gets accepted as a standard. To heck with technological superiority and other crap. This is how windows became the defacto in the operating system arena. Even though there were better alternatives like OS/2 and MAC.
Linux Help
for all things on Linux
I have to say, however much I may not like Microsoft's shenanigans, that given the history of Sony's formats, I would, without even needing to know the details, choose whatever solution other than theirs.
VHS came out after Beta, BUT, VHS had a larger capacity than Beta. I think we all know how THAT turned out.
What will push Blu-ray? Playstation 3. Microsoft's support of the other team should come as no surprise, but in the end I expect they will support it.
I've built up so much character I have an alter-ego
Blu-Ray isn't Sony, but you're kidding yourself if you think that Sony isn't the dominant player in the format. Blu-Ray would never exist without Sony's involvement, and they're basically the only company championing the format.
is how much DRM each technology uses.
Blu-ray lost my vote when they decided to build in functionality to allow the movie industry to actually disable your player if they chose. To restore your disabled player you would have to send it in for 'repair'.
I wish the talks between the two had not broken down because I don't see this ending easily. Sony will put it in their PS3 which will tremondously help out the format, just like the PS2 did for DVDs. But of course the "official" format will not die easily, and now that they have the support of microsoft and intel, it will make it even more difficult for one format to just quietly leave the game.
It becomes a lot easier to stomach a 500+ dollar game purchase when it will also play blu-ray dvds aswell, because people will want to watch the better quaility pictures.
It isn't that difficult to figure out why MS hates blu-ray and that is because their XBOX360 (which is really unimpressive) is still stuck on regular DVDs. If you have to buy an XBOX360 (400) + nextgen dvd player (200-300, maybe more) vs buying a ps3 (500, price is a guess, but I can't see it costing more than that. If it does its dead before it ships) people are SAVING money by buying the ps3.
well, not really but you can spin it that way.
Wow! A proprietary Sony format isn't being widley adopted? I'm shocked!
It's the porn industry that's going to decide, remember? Who cares what the industry people think...
The ability to view porn in more private circumstances was hugely transformative for the average joe. So the availability of porn made a major difference for videotape buying decisions.
The internet was another dramatic transformation. Not only was human contact at point-of-purchase no longer necessary, but also tiny slices of the market (some rather bizarre) could be specifically targeted and exploited by porn merchants.
But it's hard to imagine Blu-Ray/HD-DVD having any such effect on the porn market. In fact, to really take advantage of better resolution, etc. would probably require production budgets that porn makers just don't have.
No, the main beneficiaries of this in terms of product are the movie studios. Second and third are video games and TV (not necessarily in that order). Between them, they are the important players in determining the succeeding format.
Unfortunately, according to this article ,
According to this the delay is not for technical reasons: "The consortium behind the disc wants to avoid repeating 1997's slow launch of the DVD, for which only a few titles were initially available."On the other hand, in 1997 there wasn't a competing DVD format breathing down anyone's neck.
--- Often in error; never in doubt!
So 50GB is miles off, of course it is because we all know that HD-DVD is so real and there are so many devices whereas Blu-ray will only be shipping in potentially the biggest selling console of 2006.
Microsoft do XBox 360, Sony do PS3, XBox 360 hasn't gone for either HD-DVD or Blu-ray. If HD-DVD was so real why didn't they pick it for XBox 360?
Its amazing how this talk of reality of Blu-ray (which I've actually seen demo'ed) over HD-DVD tends to ignore the fact that only one company (Sony) is producing a mass market player in 2006.
If PS3 wins, then Blu-ray will have significant volume in 2006 which will drive down costs and mean larger capacity disks arrive much earlier.
"Grand Theft Auto - Whole of the damned Continenal United States" anyone?
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Their competitor's response should then be to show people their 50GB discs. They don't do it, they have egg on their face. They do it, Microsoft has egg on their face.
Either way, I end up smiling at somebody else covered in egg.
It's like sex, except I'm having it!
In effect, Microsoft is accusing the BDA of promoting vapourware.
The irony is delicious.
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
To be honest, I've owned a PS2 since the day it hit the shelves, and it's been a blast from then until now. I haven't bought a replacement unit, so I'm still using a launch one -- hasn't let me down, my drive works fine and my controllers are working perfectly. No complaints about the hardware there. Game-wise, it's been an equal treat for me.
With regards to hype, I'm not sure if you've noticed but the hype machine for XBox360 has done everything aside of putting signs in orbit about the impending system's launch. Not to mention coming out and unveiling a product with all its specs, then turning around and offering 2 SKUs for it, clearly an attempt to get people to buy the most expensive one. By contrast, Sony's unveiling was an initial discussion of the system's specs for the developers, and some hardware demo reels showing off various elements of the system's performance. At least they didn't go to Rent-a-Hobbit to find someone to introduce the product.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
The Blu-Ray spec requires a fully functional Java interpreter to be embedded in every media player. You know the scripting language that DVDs use to control menus and stuff like that? On a Blu-Ray system, this is a full Java implementation with access to a TCP stack and everything.
(I saw some sessions about this at JavaOne this year.)
How could Microsoft get behind something like that?
Ars doesn't get "Slashdotted," nor have we for years (if you're talking about the site going down). We're quite capable of handling the load (so long as we don't happen to have beta code in at the moment ;), so could you kindly stop ripping our content with our permission? If the site was going down that would be one thing, but it's not right now, and it doesn't normally.
From reading the FAQ on the Blu-ray.com web site (not same as Blue-ray association) there are already players supporting Blu-ray in Japan, but we are unlikely to see them in North America until 2006.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Microsoft and Sony aren't Behemoths. A behemoth is a giant creature with one brain. Microsoft and Sony are Kudzus... Essentially dozens of big companies operating under the same name, often times competing with eachother. For example, the Memory Stick division and Sony's Playstation division couldn't agree on licensing terms, and so the Playstation (and the PS2) didn't ship with Sony's own memory card standard.
Sony's tech support on their 2,000k dollar fragile-as-crystal notebooks is an exercise in pain. Yet Sony has been the most agreeable publisher I've had the pleasure of working with. Their notebooks are terrible. But their PDA's were the best on the market.
In case you haven't noticed, both companies have their shoddy construction problems in certain areas. Sony's flagship PlayStation was known for a short lifespan and needing to be propped up at funny angles. Microsoft's Windows had to be rearchitected and rebuilt (the latest delay of Vista) because the XP codebase was just crap.
On the other hand, both of their gaming divisions delivered respectable platforms this past generation. Sony's PS2 was a cheaply built little machine, but it had good development tools, good adaptability, and a realistic price point. The Xbox had some great features like XBL and a HDD.
Yet with all of this, the debate over Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD seems like an argument over which Japanese DoCoMo handset is better to sell in New York: Both are incompatible with the current generation of televisions (even cutting edge ones), so what's the point? They're so DRM emcumbered that you can't get a better-than-DVD signal without re-upgrading your home theater system to a "trusted" one.
While HD-DVD requires managed copy ability, companies can still veto it by offering the service for some ridiculous fee.
Ironically Blu-Ray not taking off is better for Sony's PS3. That will ensure lower piracy rates due to the lower availability of duplicating hardware. We also know that it isn't "many years" away, as the PS3 will ship with it. And while the PS3 ship date is optimistic, it will ship within 1-2 years.
Both companies have vested interestes in the technology. What, you think Microsoft is pushing this for consumers? What company do you think is providing the mandatory managed copy software? What, did you think you could copy that HD-DVD to Linux?
The ______ Agenda
The thing that has a lot of the anti-DRM people up in arms about Blu-Ray is how it will enable content companies to change the software on their player, and other evil things about that. However..
HD-DVD MUST allow you to make AT LEAST ONE COPY. This is something that current DVD's don't even let you do (legally.) For this reason alone, i am switching my support from Blu-Ray to HD-DVD (and I suggest that the consortium advertise this. say "blu-ray wont even let you do what you want with the content you own!"). Besides, if it can be shared at least once, theres nothing that says we can't create some software to let us copy it more than once...
"Proven capacity" is somewhat of a vague term being that HD-DVD hasn't shipped yet, and Blu-ray has only shipped in Japan. Being that now the HD-DVD is delayed till 2006, from the consumers standpoint, nothing has really been proven yet, and for either format it's too early to tell.
As far as costs are concerned, they only talk of manufactering costs which tend to stabilize over time. Certainly, initially, Blu-ray should cost a lot more than HD-DVD if it needs retooling, however once econmies of scale are established manufactering cost tend to plateau, hence while this is short term concern, but perhaps not a long-term one. What isn't talked about however is liceencing cost, the main issue in contention that caused the split was that currently you have to pay the 6C ~4%-10% of the sale price of DVD hardware(depending on the cost of the machine), something that HD-DVD retains, I'm not sure how either format fares but ultimely this will be a massive cost when initial players are expected to cost $500-$1,000(maybe much more than manufactering differences).
Engadget has a great article on this:
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000623059130/
Also, the argument "Support for hybrid discs" is ridiculous. HD-DVD use "flippers" as hybrid disks. i.e. DVD on one-side and HD-DVD on the other (kinda like the old DVDs that had "widescreen" & "fullscreen"). JVC, has developed a Blu-ray disk that is a true hybrid, having a DL-DVD9 and a Blu-ray on one side.
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186/4
However, while MS/Intel are big names it seems irrelevant being that they don't actually have any products to market (and XB360 won't have HD-DVD standard; not even an option at this point, maybe a $500 system to fit above their "core" and "Premium" bundles). Only other impact that the deal seems to have is Media Center PCs, but 71% of MediaCenter PCs don't even come with a TV-tuners (which kinda makes the most important feature useless). Windows support can easily be cured w/drivers, and Dell and HP are Blu-ray supporters hence windows PCs from them will likely come with Blu-Ray. Seems to be more a PR-deal. Ultimetely it will be the Studios that decide the winner, and they will at the end choose the format that the consumers are buying.
http://www.mediacenterpcworld.com/news/502
Historically, Microsoft has been extremely pro-Consumer... they just sometimes put themselves first.
I mean, Microsoft created the hardware commoditization... had they not licensed a compatible MS-DOS to Compaq (and instead went back to IBM to re-negotiate), the commoditization of PCs wouldn't have happened. They historically were willing to support any hardware platform, not support the monopolization... they haven't tried to lock in a single video card.
Even where they attempted to monopolize markets (DirectX 3D vs. OpenGL), it was arguably pro-consumer... while OpenGL was the better API, MS's API was able to be supported by more hardware manufacturers, while OpenGL was more complicated and required more power...
Microsoft has recently moved in an anti-consumer direction, but ONLY for their own stuff.
Look, I love iTunes and iTMS, but that said, the Microsoft WMA "standard" does support competition in both the player (hardware) market and competition in the music "retailer" market...
While they aren't generally friendly to standards, and compete like dogs against any perceived threat, their default is generally to bring prices down for customers... just not THEIR prices.
Their aggressive tactics DEFINITELY involved non-innovating and swooping in when the leader falters, bundling with their OS monopoly, and generally engaging in tactics that would be cutthroat for a small company, and at times criminal for a monopolist.
That said, they aren't an anti-consumer company, beyond the fact that their actions destroy the competition.
In fact, they have generally been the MOST resistant to limiting user actions, contrasted on the OS side with IBM's OS/2 and Apple's Mac OS (Classic OR X)... you could replace the default shell, and until Win95, some companies did, and other easy to tweak aspects of the OS.
I think that the MS bashing needs to focus on where they are abusive... They also piss off enthusiasts for the same reason Wal-Mart pisses off upper-middle class consumers... If you appreciate quality things, then you HATE the low priced player that puts the company that makes higher quality stuff out of business.
As a enthusiast, I hate that MS's push to lower prices for computers (without lowering their prices) has pushed out good technology and replaced it with crap... however, as a purchaser of computer hardware, I do appreciate how much prices have dropped, and I realize that it was a combination of Microsoft and Intel pushing EVERY OTHER component to commodity status... just like I appreciate the myriad of Linux players doing the same thing to the OS component, and OpenOffice/StarOffice pushing productivity software to commodity status.
Alex
What we all want is itunes for TV and movies, and a 1 tb. server with wireless access to our 1 mm. thick TV screen in our basement so that we can 'own' our movies/tv shows instead of 'renting' them, so our children can go, "What's this Mash thing? Is it about potatoes?"
No...it supports 15GB on a single layer. You can have two layers per side, just like a normal DVD. There's even been talk of triple-layer HD DVDs...
What reason does the average consumer have to upgrade?
Just ponder that one for a minute. What do EITHER of the formats actually offer?
1 - increased storage space. OK, we'll now have the ability to watch the expanded Return of the King, all 4 1/2 hours of it, without once getting up out of our seat to change discs. Since standing up every 3 hours is such an inconvenience. (not to mention the tiny number of movies which can't fit onto a current DVD)
And 2 - Full support for high-def televisions. Except that despite years on the market, penetration is TINY and still only the top couple percent of people own them.
And that's pretty much IT. (We won't even discuss "draconian DRM" or such things) Now, look at all the advantages of DVD over VHS that convinced the public to convert.
See my point? The *ONLY* way that the public will switch over to a new DVD format is if the studios force them to. (by dropping support for old DVD entirely) But since the studios won't agree on a format, even THAT won't work. Like hell the public will buy TWO new players just to be able to play all the new releases they want.
These new technologies, BOTH of them, are set to fail spectacularly. They'll end up just being proprietary formats for the various video game consoles. But unless everyone starts cooperating in a BIG way there's no chance whatsoever of them supplanting DVD as the home movie format of choice.
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
Disabling by key revocation is supported by both players.
As for the RUMOR that you'll have to have a network connection for a player - nothing but bull. No company is going to REQUIRE a network connection for consumer electronics.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If Microsoft "followed the money" they would have just joined the java consortium and standards body instead of creating .Net.
If Microsoft "followed the money" they would just support the OpenDocument format instead of waging war on office suites.
If Microsoft did anything for reasons other than emotion, they would be a very different company. Very little of what Microsfot does makes sense outside of the context of a strong agressor aiming to kill competition at all costs - not all gains.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
From the Register:h p_vs_ms_intel/
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2005/09/30/dell_
By Tony Smith 30 Sep 2005 14:04
Dell, HP slam Intel, MS' 'erroneous' HD DVD claims
Our format's better. Isn't. Is. Isn't. Is. Isn't. Is...
Backers of the Blu-ray Disc (BD) have hit back against "erroneous" claims from Intel and Microsoft that HD DVD is the superior next-generation optical disc format for PCs.
The joint Intel/Microsoft statement was said to be "not aligned" with the "vast majority" of computer industry participants, Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) members Dell and HP said.
"Microsoft and Intel's announcement erroneously indicates that HD-DVD has an advantage in a number of areas," they claimed, pointing to the chip and software giants' statement that HD DVD offers a greater storage capacity than BD.
As The Register noted at the time, Intel and MS' claim that HD DVD's 30GB capacity is better than BD's 25GB is nonsense: the two companies conveniently ignored the fact they were talking about dual-layer HD DVD discs and single-layer BDs.
Dell and HP also challenged MS and Intel on their claim that HD DVD is the only format to allow users to make controlled copies of the content stored on the disc: that's part of the AACS copy-protection system, the BDA said, and AACS is also part of the BD spec.
BD also provides scope for hybrid discs, backward compatibility with DVD, the ability to operate in slimline drives for notebook PCs and a high degree of interactivity, all features MS and Intel claimed were only available with HD DVD, the PC vendors said.
"Dell has no doubt that BD best meets the needs of computer users and provides the type of open industry standards needed to drive innovation and growth of the format across all platforms - consumer electronic, personal computers and gaming consoles," the company's CTO, Kevin Kettler said.
"From a PC end-user perspective, Blu-ray is a superior format. It offers 67-150 per cent more storage capacity, higher transfer rates, slimline notebook compatibility, broadband connectivity and a proven interactive layer with BD-Java," added Maureen Weber, general manager of HP's Personal Storage Business. ®
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
HD-DVD will allow this. People can rip the HD-DVD to hard drive, but the rip will still be DRM encoded. So to stream it to another device for playback, the playback device mfg will have to license the DRM technology from Microsoft.
The problem with Blu-Ray, from Microsoft's perspective, is that it does not rely entirely on Microsoft's DRM. It allows the movie studio to decide if they will allow the disk to be ripped to HD and streamed. With HD-DVD, all movies will be capable of being ripped. If a lot of movie studios decide to not let their movies be ripped, there will be less demand for Microsoft's MCE based computers, and less demand for Microsoft DRM licenses on playback devices. So Microsoft has backed the one format that guarantees that movies will be capable of being ripped.
When I saw this headline, I had the most awesome mental image of blue lasers decimating the Redmond campus...
- chrish