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Why Do-It-Yourself Photo Printing Doesn't Add Up

Ant writes "CNET News.com and The New Yorks Times (no registration required) report that even though the prices of printers have dropped up to 30 percent in the last few months thanks to a savage price war, buyers are going to pay at least 28 cents a print. This is if you believe the manufacturers' math. It could be closer to 50 cents a print if you trust the testing of product reviewers at Consumer Reports. In the meantime, the price of printing a 4-by-6-inch snapshot at a retailer's photo lab, like those inside a Sam's Club, is as low as 13 cents. Snapfish.com, an online mail-order service, offers prints for a dime each if you prepay. At those prices, why bother printing at home? Consumers seem to be saying just that. For the 12 months ended in July, home printing accounted for just 48 percent of the 7.7 billion digital prints made, down sharply from 64 percent in the previous 12 months, according to the Photo Marketing Association International, a trade group for retailers and camera makers. The number of photos spewing out of home printers is up quite handsomely, however, because of the overall growth of digital photo printing--up about 68 percent from the year-earlier period - but retail labs clearly have the advantage..."

66 of 414 comments (clear)

  1. well.... by schnits0r · · Score: 3, Interesting

    WEll part of the issue is the cost of the ink. Print shops buy more and therefore it's cheaper, they also have higher grade equipment that doesn't break as often as our home eqipment (broken heads come to mind, then oyu have to replace the whole cartridge, OR buy a new printer in the case of Epson).

    However, despite it being cheaper elsewhere, if you need a print right away for some reason, I would hate to not have the ability to push one out every 2 minutes.

    1. Re:well.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Print shops also get to use real photo paper and RGB lasers (which use no ink), and get no difference in print quality compared to a conventional developed print, and for the same price as ink prints...

      and given my experience with colour lasting over the years, I'd pay MORE to get the laser ones done than crappy inkjet.

    2. Re:well.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The thing is they don't use ink. In the machine is usually a laser or led that exposes normal photographic (silver halide) paper, then it goes through the traditional chemical process. The checimal and paper cost is always going to be cheaper than what the inkjet printer manufacturers charge for their ink and paper. A lot of consumers got duped into thinking the convenience of printing at home was much greater than the price of the print. How wrong they were. When you stuff around trying to make the colour look right by trial and error, the cost of the print is a lot higher than getting it printed in a lab.

      I work in a lab and this is what we have experienced. In Australia, Harvey Norman (consumer electronics) started off as the Computer Specialists, then they went to Digital Camera Specialists and now they are Digital Printing Specialists. When they were the computer and dc specialist, they were pushing that you must have an inkjet printer, but now they are telling you that you must have the photos printed on their Fuji digital labs. People who "specialise" in so many areas are really not specialists at all.

      We do quality comparisons in our area by getting a digital file printed from a range of labs to compare quality and really, Harvey Norman's is really just shit. Although the industry has gone to a digital production, the underlying science of chemicals has not changed. Balancing the chemistry and what not is a daily manual job. There is no point creating the printer profile to bring it "back into balance" when the chemicals are so far out of whack.

    3. Re:well.... by o0SupaCB0o · · Score: 2, Insightful

      funny at my passport photoshop I charge people 10 dollars for 2 ink jet pictures. I tell them not to wet them or the INS won't accept them. =) Yea its retarded how short a life these ink containers are. I complain even though I already gouge my customers.

  2. Value for Paris, None For Us by fragmentate · · Score: 5, Informative

    I own an HP camera, and HP PhotoSmart 7760 printer. Here's some real world data for you:

    Photo Cartridge: $35
    Black Cartridge: $20
    Number of pictures printed: 68

    That's just under a dollar per print. All prints were 4x6. At that rate, it's just cheaper to run up to the pharmacy and get them printed in duplicate. Yes, twice as many pictures and it's still less expensive.

    This whole printing from home thing is probably a great thing for people that have to drive 40 miles to the nearest pharmacy, but for the rest of us... yay? The only good thing about printing at home, you ask?

    Well, Paris and Paris can take all the nudies they want of each other and never have them leak to the press! That's easily worth $.80 a print!

    1. Re:Value for Paris, None For Us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The majority of my non-US friends opt to buy unofficial inks by the gallon from China. That easily slashes the cost to 70-80%. That being said, they print a lot. So, the ink isn't wasted. The quality of the print is virtually the same and the printer doesn't break down either, regardless what printer companies want you to believe.

    2. Re:Value for Paris, None For Us by serutan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The best market for these might be the low-volume user for whom a trip to a photo processing place just to make 2 or 3 prints every now and then is too much trouble and expense. My in-laws gave me a Photosmart last Christmas, which I never would have bought for myself, but I really appreciate the ability to crank out maybe 5 or 6 prints per month to send to relatives and whatnot. At that one-at-a-time rate it just isn't worth it to me to go anywhere to get digital prints. If this printer lasts 6 or 8 years I will happily pay to replace it.

      But of course by then the big thing will probably be digital paper with Harry Potter style images that move around and talk.

    3. Re:Value for Paris, None For Us by nogginthenog · · Score: 2, Interesting

      trip to a photo processing place
      Huh? Who uses those. Use an on-line photo printer. Delivered to your door in a day or two and probably cheaper too (one of them always has a special offer on).

    4. Re:Value for Paris, None For Us by kevcol · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Costco- a half mile from work- I walk in with an SD card, have lunch lunch, go back to the photo counter and walk out with 4x6's at $0.29 or 8x10s on matte for $0.99 a pop if I need them, plenty cheap enough.

      So yeah- some of us can get it more conveniently than waiting for the on-line printer delivery.

    5. Re:Value for Paris, None For Us by klubar · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think Costco has lowered the price to $.19 or ($.17 in some markets). Don't forget the opportunity to buy a cheap slice (of pizza) along with your lunchtime trip.

      I just don't see the benefit of home printing--if you don't print frequently you waste the ink when the printer "warms up". If you need a lot of prints and are in a hurry, then a trip to a costco/drug store is probably faster (20 minute drive each way, 30 minutes waiting for prints=70) which for a quantity of 100 is less than 1 minute per print. Some photoshops do a good job on color--and if you're unhappy with the color balance you can usually ask them to re-run them.

      What I don't like about Costco (and most other 1 hour print labs) is that they don't do 4xX's. They resize to 4x6 by chopping off the ends.

    6. Re:Value for Paris, None For Us by James+Mowry · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is true that 4x6 prints crop part of the digital image (unless you have a camera that has an option to create images in that ratio to begin with, as my previous Sony DSC-7 had.) However, I use the Kodak machine at the supermarket where I get my pictures printed to review each image and change the cropping if need be. It also gives me the option to enhance images, which is useful for those that are too dark or bright. It is time-consuming, although you get the hang of using the touchscreen terminal pretty quickly, but it is worthwhile since you end up with prints that are cropped the way you want. (Not time-consuming of course if you are only doing a handful of prints, but I recently came back from vacation and printed about 100 prints on each of three occasions. It took close to an hour each time to get what I wanted.) As for quality, there is no comparison. Home prints suck!

  3. First Prime Factorization Post by 2*2*3*75011 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Ant writes "CNET News.com and The New Yorks Times (no registration required) report that even though the prices of printers have dropped up to 2*3*5 percent in the last few months thanks to a savage price war, buyers are going to pay at least 2*2*7 cents a print. This is if you believe the manufacturers' math. It could be closer to 2*5*5 cents a print if you trust the testing of product reviewers at Consumer Reports. In the meantime, the price of printing a 2*2-by-2*3-inch snapshot at a retailer's photo lab, like those inside a Sam's Club, is as low as 13 cents. Snapfish.com, an online mail-order service, offers prints for a dime each if you prepay. At those prices, why bother printing at home? Consumers seem to be saying just that. For the 2*2*3 months ended in July, home printing accounted for just 2*2*2*2*3 percent of the 7*11/(2*5) billion digital prints made, down sharply from 2*2*2*2*2*2 percent in the previous 2*2*3 months, according to the Photo Marketing Association International, a trade group for retailers and camera makers. The number of photos spewing out of home printers is up quite handsomely, however, because of the overall growth of digital photo printing--up about 2*2*17 percent from the year-earlier period - but retail labs clearly have the advantage..."

  4. There's a reason to print at home and on-line. by yagu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is a near and dear issue for me. I've eagerly slurped up all the new generations of printer technology each time more amazed than ever at the quality of prints, finally achieving indistinguishable quality from lab prints.

    But, a disturbing parallel trend came with each new generation of printer. The printers became:

    • better quality
    • faster
    • cheaper

    but at the same time:

    • less reliable (like, in a major major way)
    • more expensive per print
    • and inconvenient as hell

    I still jump in every generation or so of new photo printer technology but not with rose-colored glasses anymore. I still need to on occasion get a quick print for home or some guest, but that's mostly it. For my serious stuff, I send it out to be done:

    • it's just so much easier
    • if they make a mistake, they eat the costs
    • the majority of the prints I want to make are for other people, and the majority of the time those people are geographically far away. I can get a high quality print to them much more easily and in half the time than if I do it myself.
    • I still am having trouble getting a ceramic cup to print properly on any of my photo printers.

    I think the costs for high quality prints from services will remain competitive as there are plenty of competent "players" out there. Just read the reviews, sample a few prints yourself before you commit big time to any of them. Also, maintain your storage of prints yourself, lots of services offer storage, but I'd highly recommend if you value your pictures, you keep archives of your own. (Aside from reliability issues, what happens if any of them go out of business? Where do your pictures go?)

  5. Why would I? I'll tell you why... by centipetalforce · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because I don't feel like burning gas and calories driving to Sam's club or wherever to have some snot nosed kids running around me, to have the clerk looking at my photos, to have to drive back or wait around an hour to pick up the prints. At home, I can take my pictures and in about three minutes have it hanging on my wall. Screw going to the store.

    1. Re:Why would I? I'll tell you why... by nmb3000 · · Score: 4, Informative

      ...to have the clerk looking at my photos...

      While I don't care too much about this (perhaps I'm not taking the same, uh, genre, of photos you are), there are other solutions.

      I'm not sure what service the submitter was referring to exactly, but many stores including WalMart and others have automated Fujifilm or Kodak kiosks that let you input your photos via a large number of interfaces (flatbed scanner, USB, compact flash, SD, etc), view and edit them, and then print them on quality photo paper for 10-25 cents each. My mother who owns a Kodak picture printer does this because not only is it a lot cheaper and the quality of the prints is very good, but she can crop, resize, adjust brightness/contrast/saturation, etc, without trying to learn how to use graphic software.

      It prints the pictures instantly along with a UPC you stick to the envelope and pay at the cashier. Nobody really sees them.

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
    2. Re:Why would I? I'll tell you why... by GiSqOd · · Score: 5, Informative


      I develop all my digital pics at Costco. which happens to also be my primary grocery-buying place. Some clear advantages:

      1. New/Better developing equipment. Costco (and probably most other retailers) have developing stations FAR better than my g/f's Epson photo printer. They update their machinery every six months or so, too, so I get excellent color reproduction, high quality print paper, etc.

      2. Price. I pay 12 cents a print for 4x6, or something nearly as stupid. Maybe it's 14 cents; who cares? Much less than the costs people are posting here for home photo printers. I like money, don't you?

      3. Convenience. I happen to do most of my grocery shopping at Costco (love dem 12-packs of Campbell's Chunky Soup -- mmmm, MSG...). They also do developing in less than an hour, most of the time, so you can develop while you shop. And if you'd rather sit in your jammies, Costco.com will let you send your pics from your home PC for pickup in store, or they'll deliver by mail (like Snapfish, etc.). It's not 3 minutes from concept to wall art, but if you want immediate results you're gonna pay in $$$ and quality.

      4. Customer Service. This may be a Costco-only thing, but they'll refund your money if you don't like your pictures FOR ANY REASON. My father (bless his tech-inept heart) once developed all 200 of his pics from Europe. Problem is, he developed the thumbnails. Costco explained his error, refunded his money, and developed the actual pics instead. Try getting Epson to send you a replacement cartridge because you did something stupid.

      Of course, home printers have their uses. Off the top of my head, Costco is terrible for:

      1. Blackmail/Kidnapping Photos. I'm pretty sure they've got to report this kind of thing. Besides, if you've kidnapped anyone of signifigance, you've got a hefty payday coming. 50 cent prints aren't a big expenditure for you.

      2. Pictures of your naughty bits. No need to traumatize the adolescents working the shop at Costco with pictures of your wang. Plus, hard copies are so 1970s. Just post the high-res shots anonymously to craigslist like the rest of us.

      Outside of these two, admittedly rare, categories, I just can't fathom why people are spending hundreds of dollars on home-developing. My two cents.

    3. Re:Why would I? I'll tell you why... by hamoe · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The question is: Is it worth spending my time on them? Let's see... waste an hour cutting the grass... or bill $150/hour on a consulting contract and pay the gardener $50/month? Hmmmm...
      Getting paid to do work is something I do to support my way of living. Outside of work, I can't imagine having the same mentality. Mowing the lawn is rewarding and enjoyable usually.

      As for printing, my .02 is that printing labs are great for batch processing, and that inexpensive photo printer at home is great for the picture you took five minutes ago and want to give to someone or take with you somewhere. But, I definitely do not think home printers are oriented toward high volume printing. The damn things oftentimes stop working under normal use. Unfortunately, they are marketed to be something they were not engineered to be.
    4. Re:Why would I? I'll tell you why... by Jugalator · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Isn't there online photo services where you live? :-S
      You know, where you upload your stuff and get it delivered?

      I agree there's still the delays involved though.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  6. No advantage in privacy, convienence, time, etc.. by Inoshiro · · Score: 3, Informative

    Everyone who feels like they have a say in this should go and watch "One Hour Photo" before they open their reply windows.

    Seriously, you're paying for 1 thing -- privacy. Scratch that, you're also paying for convienence. How much $$ in gas do you burn driving to the store, then driving back to pick it up? That's a distance * 4 cost if you're doing nothing else. What's the time cost involved? Hey, how much do you make an hour vs. how long you spend driving? There are many advantages to home printing.

    Plus, if you're into semi-illegal things, you'll know that the photo clerks are required by law to turn you into the cops if you try to get prints of scary pictures. I'd much rather the people with said prints do not set foot near photo equipment I run -- if I was in their position.

    Convience is why 4L of milk (which I can get for 3$ at Wal-mart) is 6$ at the corner gas station. Why is it such a surprise that people use home printers? Hell, most people don't have laserjets! Inkjets sure cost a lot more per page, even though the initial cost is lower.

    --
    --
    Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
  7. My suggestion by fgl · · Score: 2, Informative

    Don't print, use something like Flickr That's where I upload my "art"

    --
    Go Away! Not for Sale
    1. Re:My suggestion by Aqua+OS+X · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Personally, I'm a fan of iPhoto. It's a brainless way to imports pictures and order prints.
      But, in an ideal situation I would be able to pay for prints via iPhoto and pick them up an hour later at the local 1 hour photo. As of now, I need to wait 24 hours before I get them.

      --
      "Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
  8. Bugger! by tezbobobo · · Score: 2

    Now you tell me. I just got back from europe and discovered it was cheaper to buy a cheap hp that does photo prints than buy new ink cartridges for my existing printer. Luckily I also shot 15 roles of film. At least with those I don't have to worry about the inmages fading of media becoming obsolete - they'll only ever need one print.

  9. XXX by My+Iron+Lung · · Score: 2, Funny

    My pictures are too dirty to have developed by anyone but me.

  10. How much ... by yamum · · Score: 3, Funny

    is a dime?

    1. Re:How much ... by xtermz · · Score: 4, Funny

      Um, about $25-30 if its the good chronic sticky bud...

      --


      I lost my concept of community when my community lost all concept of me.
  11. Simple fact: Longevity by kriston · · Score: 3, Informative

    Have you looked at the photographs you've been printing at home over the past few years lately? I've noticed a trend which is why I never recommend in-home photo printing.

    1) Consumables are horribly expensive especially after you factor in mistakes and cutting.

    2) Cutting required buying a paper cutter.

    3) After about a year the ink fades.

    4) The ink adheres and usually migrates from the paper to the glass/acetate in albums in all cases.

    None of these factors came into play with the commercial services. I'm just happy they accept digital pictures and print them on real photo paper.

    --

    Kriston

    1. Re:Simple fact: Longevity by sjmac · · Score: 2, Informative

      I leave occasional test prints on my window sill, pretty much worst cast for any print. They get a lot of sunshine there.

      With my old Epson Stylus 790 printer (dye-based inks) I noticed differnces between Epson ink and generic ink, and differences between paper brands, but they all faded after a few months.

      Epsons current inks, branded Durabrite and Ultrachrome (Ultrachrome is best for photos), are pigment based. My Durabrite prints have not faded noticably in over a year on the sill. They are also water resistant, and the Durabrite inks print very well on plain paper too (rather than the special coated paper you need to get the best quality for a photo).

      They don't seem to be "sticky" like the old pigment inks were, so they sit more nicely in a photo album.

      Epsons Durabrite printers are all 3 colours, and don't print gloss prints so well, but for longevity, I have no complaints. I'd expect the Ultrachrome prints to be better than anything I could get from a lab, and last as long, but with 7 colours plus gloss optimizer ... think of all the blocked nozzles ;-(

    2. Re:Simple fact: Longevity by Mordaximus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which has the potential to produce the better print? Hands down, the mini lab printer.

      Which _will_ produce the better print?

      The important question is, where is the printer, and who is operating it? You wager on the mini-lab printer in Wal-Mart, run by a minimum wage employee who transfered over from sporting good last week?

      I'd wager, speaking from experience, that a photographer that does more than snap family photos, understands all aspects of photography from exposure to print, envisions his end result and adjust his equipment accordingly and uses a decent quality photo printer will get far, far better results.

      Cheaper is not always better.

    3. Re:Simple fact: Longevity by toddestan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Cheaper is not always better.

      Then don't take them to Walmart. There is a real camera shop in my area that prints digital to photo paper. Their machines are probably better than the typical minilab, and they are staffed by people who know what they are doing. The results are always excellent. The cost is a bit more expensive than Walmart (I think .29 per print last time I was there), but it's still cheaper and better than printing at home.

  12. Something to be said for a chemical process by davidwr · · Score: 5, Informative

    The chemical processes used to print digital prints are usually the same as printing from negatives.

    Depending on your photo lab, you should get a high, consistent, quality of print that you know will last as long as those shot with negatives, usually decades in good storage conditions.

    This is unlike most low-end inkjets where printout lifetimes may be under a decade.

    Now, if you WANT archival-quality inkjets, you can buy a printer that uses archival inks, and get matching archival ink and paper. Even then though, you are using unproven technology: You can only hope the vendor's torture-tests accurately simulate the promised 50 years in a photo album or in some cases 200 years in museum conditions. With a chemical process, you pretty much know what to expect.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Something to be said for a chemical process by jimboisbored · · Score: 5, Informative

      The instant kiosks are just inkjets. What you want is the Fuji Aladdin kiosks, an AGFA e-box/imagebox, lucidiom's kiosks (I work at a lab and that's what we us), or another kiosk that is only for ordering. Then the files are stored on a server until a worker picks the order from a list and tells the printer to print the order. They're then printed with a laser (newer ones use LED's) onto silver halide processed paper. In fact your film is really put through some digital processing before it's printed and it's printed using a laser too. The printer scans the neg's, and allows for color correction on screen and then queues them up to print. I'm basing this on the knowledge of an AGFA D.lab 3, i'm assuming Fuji frontiers and Noritsu's are pretty much the same (I know the laser and silver halide paper part is). The brand of printer doesn't really matter as long as it's maintained well. We balance everything on our printer daily. Our output is professional quality (provided we get good files/film) and we have some local pros do their medium format stuff here. So as far as I'm concerned inkjets are worthless.

    2. Re:Something to be said for a chemical process by NMerriam · · Score: 3, Informative

      Now, if you WANT archival-quality inkjets, you can buy a printer that uses archival inks, and get matching archival ink and paper. Even then though, you are using unproven technology: You can only hope the vendor's torture-tests accurately simulate the promised 50 years in a photo album or in some cases 200 years in museum conditions. With a chemical process, you pretty much know what to expect.

      You're not "trusting" anything -- ink on paper and exposed to light is just as much a chemical process as a cibachrome. Using non-fugitive pigments on acid-free paper has been tested for several thousand years longer than any photographic chemical. Whether it's applied with an inkjet or a paintbrush really doesn't make any difference.

      Unfortunately, people who trust photographic prints should realize that pretty much any current consumer process is guaranteed to make a print that will be worthless in ten to twenty years even if kept in a sealed vault. Your original negative film might last another decade past that.

      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
  13. ink is overpriced by jay2003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Printer manufacturers charge ridiculous amounts of money for ink. I'm glad consumers are wising up and having pictures lab printed. Perhaps these numbers will convince Epson, HP & Canon, they can not gouge us on ink forever and they will lower prices.

    If not, consumers are getter better longevity with lab prints since they are done on photographic paper. I know all the statistics about 100 year estimated print life on newer inkjets. There's always the little asterisk about not exposing the prints to air unless this they are inkjet pigment printers. Epson has some but pigment ink cartridges are usually even more expensive. Not to mention clogged heads, smeared prints and all the other problems you get trying to print at home.

  14. The best reason to NOT print at home... by SynapseLapse · · Score: 3, Informative

    Is so you'll actually have decent prints in 20 years.
    Home printers use ink sprayed onto paper (Unless you happen to have a very high end Dye-sublimation printer) whereas most photo labs will use a standard photo color emulsion on acetate paper process.
    Unless you have specially treated paper, your prints are likely to fade and lose color to the oxidation process within 5 to 20 years. Whereas photo prints are typically guaranteed to retain their color for 100 years in moderate to indirect sunlight.

    Of course, my favorite, silver emulsion Black & White prints will, theoretically, retain their look forever. :)

    In any event, I've scanned in and restored a lot of photos that were 40 years or older for folks. There is nothing worse than trying to extract a decent image from a faded inkjet print on lousy, or even decent, paper.

  15. Too bad my modpoints expired... by WoTG · · Score: 4, Informative

    I agree with the AC. With special emphasis on the fact that these are the exact same prints that are made from film -- the front end processing is different of course, but the end prints are made of the same chemical processes and materials. So they will last exactly as long as traditional prints, i.e. a whole lot longer than the vast majority of inkjet prints.

    There are newer pigment based prints that are supposed to last a long time, but I don't really know much about their cost or longevity.

  16. obsolete media... by ecalkin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    uhmmm, film *can* become obsolete...

        every once in a while there is a new color process created. the current color print film process is c41. the one before that is c22 (i am not aware of any c's from 23-40). besides each process having it's own processing chemicals and steps (boy are you in trouble if you have unprocessed c22), they have their own color balance.

        most color printers have several channels with a channel devoted to a particular brand and speed of c41 process film. i took some old (1970s?) negatives in and couldn't get good prints. why? they didn't want to spend the time and paper to create a color balance for a handful of photos. i don't blame them. that was the first c22 stuff they had ever seen. i had to send it to a specialist to get it printed. and it was not cheap.

        i also feel sorry for people who have negatives that are not 35mm. there are a lot of labs that can't print from 110, disk, 126 (it's close) and other small sizes.

    eric

  17. Why print? by JanneM · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why print at all?

    Ok, a bit overstated, but I'm serious. Of all the pictures you take, how many actually _need_ to be printed? I'd say those few you want to hang on a wall, or put in a frame. For most people that is a precious few photographs per year; if nothing else, the amount of wall space and kindly relatives to foist the prints off to is very limited.

    I take on the order of 10k pictures a year, thanks to the ease of digital photography. Perhaps 1/10, or about 1000, is actually worth saving at all (since it's so easy and cheap, it's usually a good idea to take multiple exposures of any one subject to avoid duds). Of those, maybe 2/3 are purely archival - they are a memento of some event or something, and I'd like to keep it, but they aren't really of any significance. If I lost them it would be a shame but not really a big deal. Of the rest (interesting enough to actually post-process), most of them will end up on Flickr, or emailed to people that may be interested, or simply shown on-screen. The number of images I would actually want to have hanging number in the single digits - and I have yet to go to the trouble to do so.

    --
    Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    1. Re:Why print? by olman · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ok, a bit overstated, but I'm serious. Of all the pictures you take, how many actually _need_ to be printed? I'd say those few you want to hang on a wall, or put in a frame. For most people that is a precious few photographs per year; if nothing else, the amount of wall space and kindly relatives to foist the prints off to is very limited.

      Actually a valid argument why home printing isn't that expensive at the end of the day. Since your 80-shot CF card probably contains 5-10 photos worth printing and putting into album the costs vs commercial printing become more vague..

      Plus I've adjusted my screen and my printer just the way I like it (AdobeRGB etcetera) and to send prints to a commercial printer I'd still have to crop them and convert them to sRGB and maybe adjust them to their ICC profile and..

      All in all, labour involved in printing 1 photo (cropping, white balance adjustments, sharpening, shadow/highlight adjustments..) are so great it's a bit misleading to count straight cents per print consumables. Of course if you print and pray it's a different story.

  18. Simple rule by syousef · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Here are my rules:
    1) If it's standard 4x6, print at a lab. You won't be able to beat the price
    2) If it's larger - up to A4, print at home on modest priced photo printer that lets you refill individual tanks, and using cheap photo paper (Where I live Kodak's the cheapest and the quality is good enough for my needs - and I consider myself a serious amateur photographer).
    3) If you're likely to be printing A3 or A3+ often it's worth buying an A3 or A3+ photo printer. Since they're considerably more expensive (or were last time I looked), you have to be printing A3 at least an item a month to make it worthwhile. (ie one poster a month). Otherwise find a cheap lab.
    4) If you're printing larger than A3 the photos get ridiculously priced. A lab is going to be cheaper but not cheap (unless you are a specialised printing firm). Avoid these.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Simple rule by kni52 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Anyone know of site that does this is the U.S. or at least in North America this inexpensively? I'm sure the shipping from Germany would not be cheap, or would atleast place it into the same price range as the sites i've found after taking a quick look.

      --
      My subtext is just a figment of your imagination.
  19. My fav place to get photos printed by jim_v2000 · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...is Costco. They don't have the cheapest 4x6 (17 cents), but everything else is a good price. $0.39 for a 5x7, $1.49 for an 8x10/8x12, and $2.99 for a 12x18 print. The quality is fantastic too.

    And I swear, they didn't pay me to post this...I just like sharing a good deal when I find one.

    --
    Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
    1. Re:My fav place to get photos printed by jroysdon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Costco Photocenter online rocks (snapfish's service, developed at your local Costco in an hour). Upload and specify when you want them and go shopping an a couple hours. Plus you can share with your friends and family and they can order and get them at their own local Costco (or they can pay to have them mailed).

      I always loved the idea of getting photos developed online, but balked at the shipping costs, especially if I want just a few prints. Now, I do it all the time.

    2. Re:My fav place to get photos printed by pip-PPC · · Score: 2, Informative

      And for professionals (or wannabe pros), you can get high-quality and recent color profiles for the minilabs in almost all Costcos! This site has different .icc profiles for different paper types, and even details on what to request when you order your prints. Also, guides on how to best use the profiles. Way cool. http://drycreekphoto.com/Frontier/

  20. You don't have to drive twice or wait by ThatAdamGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You and other posters here have lamented the inconvenience of driving to the store to drop off your photo-data-cards and then waiting an hour or driving back a second time.

    I think you're overlooking two key options:

    1) Upload photos to a site, then pick up. For instance, you can upload your photos via Yahoo and then pick them up in as little as an hour from Target (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/thatadamguy/print_s plash). I seem to recall that other stores also let you upload-'n'-pick-up, too. With the aforementioned Yahoo/Target option, it's 20 cents per print, first 20 free.

    2) Or, if you don't mind waiting a week or so, order photos online via Fotki, Shutterfly, etc.

    As for privacy... I suppose there could be some issues, but particularly with mega-printers like Ofoto and Snapfish and such, I just don't imagine that the photos are being seen by many human eyes (perhaps not even by one).

    --
    Only the truly shameless shill their blog in a Slashdot sig
  21. You know, I have one simple request... by Stormwatch · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...and that is to have sharks with frickin' laser printers attached to their heads! Now evidently my cycloptic colleague informs me that that cannot be done. Ah, would you remind me what I pay you people for, honestly? Throw me a bone here! What do we have?

    Number Two: Inkjets.

    Dr. Evil: ... Right.

    Number Two: They're photo-quality inkjets.

    Dr. Evil: Are their cartridges refillable?

    Number Two: Absolutely.

    Dr. Evil: Oh well, that's a start.

  22. Re:No advantage in privacy, convienence, time, etc by rynthetyn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Plus, if you're into semi-illegal things, you'll know that the photo clerks are required by law to turn you into the cops if you try to get prints of scary pictures. I'd much rather the people with said prints do not set foot near photo equipment I run -- if I was in their position.

    Or, even things that aren't illegal might run you some trouble. I once had a roll of film take weeks to come back (it was panoramic, so it took a bit longer anyway), the store ended up claiming that they had misplaced the pictures in the back of a box. I really don't believe that story though, I think they got investigated before they made it back to me because I had a bunch of pictures of my family's burned out car, which had caught fire while my mom was driving it down the road one day. I think that the clerks saw the pictures, got suspicious, and forwarded it on to authorities. Or maybe I'm just paranoid and they really did temporarily misplace my pictures.

    --
    Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines...
  23. All That Assumes... by Greyfox · · Score: 2, Interesting

    An amateur photographer who doesn't really care how their prints look. The prices as the professional photo labs will make you shoot your drink out your nose, but you DO get what you pay for, too. Unfortunately there aren't usually enough professional photographers around to support the labs in the area and so the professional labs are always going out of business. It would appear to me that the professional photo developer is something of a dying breed. Well not to mention that the industry doesn't seem to pay enough for anyone to actually make a career out of it...

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  24. Re:No advantage in privacy, convienence, time, etc by Eivind · · Score: 2
    I agree with the privacy-thing. Makes sense for some kinds of photos in particular.

    The inconvenience, gas, time and so on however is silly. You seem to assume that one can only order photos printed at a bircks-and-mortar store and have to fetch the result there too.

    In reality, ordering a copy of a selection of photos is as simple as selecting them in konq, rigth-click and select "Order photos", then fill in what size and what number I want and click Go. All done in maybe a minute, much *quicker* and easier than printing myself. (which requires finding and inserting photo-paper, making sure there's enough ink, and then printing the pictures one by one.)

    The results are in my mailbox the following morning assuming I ordered by noon, if not, the day after.

  25. Re:No advantage in privacy, convienence, time, etc by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've heard that if ones digital photos are good enough, many clerks will refuse to print them on the slim chance that the photos were taken by a professional with a penchant for launching copyright infringement suits.

  26. Re:No advantage in privacy, convienence, time, etc by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Seriously, you're paying for 1 thing -- privacy. Scratch that, you're also paying for convienence. How much $$ in gas do you burn driving to the store, then driving back to pick it up? That's a distance * 4 cost if you're doing nothing else. What's the time cost involved? Hey, how much do you make an hour vs. how long you spend driving? There are many advantages to home printing."

    Erm maybe. However, I'd have to drive 600 miles to make up for the cost of just the printer itself.

    That said, I have to wonder why home printing is all that popular in the first place. Me personally, I keep and view all my photos etc on my computer. My girlfriend puts all her favorite photos onto her website with a neat freebie gallery app she downloaded. Neither of us are terribly interested in hard copies of photos. I can't help but think over the next few years, more will feel this way. Maybe I'm narrow minded, but I think this particular market is doomed to die in the not too distant future. Between cell phones, PDAs, e-paper, and iPods with fancy-ass screens, the benefits of hard copied prints are diminishing in the face of digital convenience.

    --
    "Derp de derp."
  27. The reason I print at home: quality by AragornCG · · Score: 2, Informative

    About two years ago, I did an extnesive analysis of photo printing: test prints of a digital SLR photo I took of a Dave Chihuly glass sculpture (among other scenes) on the latest and greatest from Canon, Epson, and HP, as well as two area drug stores with printing kiosks and two online services.

    The printers blew away the printing kiosks, which blew away the online services in quality. Seriously, ofoto.com was absolutely terrible. It looked like they resampled my picture to 640x480 before printing it, and then applied some punch-it-up color filtering to make it look "better" to the untrained eye. The picture was washed out and disgusting. The in-store printouts (CVS and Walgreen's) both fared only slightly better - it looked like someone used an LCD to expose the paper or something; definitely not anywhere close to the full potential of the source image. To be fair, the store printouts had better color reproduction than the online sites.

    That left the printers - which produced results miles better than the online or in-store results. Yeah, they cost more - but the HP and Canon printouts both were gorgeous, with the Canon ending up slightly more vivid but the HP ending up slightly more accurate. I ended up deciding based on the superior UI of the HP on-printer interface, but it was a close call.

    Do I pay more per print? Yep. Did I find an online service or in-store service that could come anywhere in the same ballpark of quality as printing it myself? Heck no.

  28. I've realized for years this very story by saskboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's simple math to determine how much it will cost per page for your ink, and paper.

    Buy 30 sheets of photo paper at $20, and your sheet cost per large photo is 20/30 = $0.66.

    Then with the HP Laser Jet 2550 colour printer, you get about 4000 sheets and ink is about $100 for black, and $100 for each of the three colours, and there's an imaging drum to replace too, so it's at a minium $400/4000sheets, so $0.10/page of ink expenses.

    In this example, it's nearly 80 cents per 8"/10" photo page, and that's with the traditionally MORE economical laser printer. A crappy buble jet that HP makes these days, gives you 15mL of ink for your 3 colours, and 13mL for the black, and that costs $35 and might last, well I'm guessing since I'm not rich enough to buy and use one, 25 pages at 8"/10". So with the photo paper that means you'd get about 35/20 for ink + $0.66 for the paper = $2.06 for my example. Compare that to Walmart, and I'm sure that box store is going to kick the pants off of the price for printing at home.

    --
    Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
  29. Quality... by OneFix · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This article talks about the problem many photographers are now having...for many (like myself) digital has made it cheaper amd easier than maintaining a professional darkroom (Kodak in my case)...

    I got rid of the equipment before I got my digital camera, but it just became too expensive with the cost of chemicals, photo paper, bulbs, etc...not to mention it takes up way too much room...

    Now, professional photographers (the ones in the phonebook) can probably afford their own digital photolab...and many of them still use large format (which is higher quality than digital right now)...Medium format digitals have just begun to appear...but the "backyard" photographer can't afford that and so the choice you are left with is to print them yourself (with a photo printer) or trust someone like Walmart/CVS to print them for you...

  30. -5 Wrong by Tim · · Score: 5, Informative

    Unless you have specially treated paper, your prints are likely to fade and lose color to the oxidation process within 5 to 20 years. Whereas photo prints are typically guaranteed to retain their color for 100 years in moderate to indirect sunlight.

    Wrong.

    Older (dye-based) inkjet printers had fading problems, but more recent models use pigment-based inksets, and the resulting prints actually tend to exceed the longevity of traditional color prints.

    The Epson Ultrachromes, for example, are Wilhelm rated for over 100 years in good display conditions, and over 200 years in dark storage.

    --
    Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
    1. Re:-5 Wrong by Jules+Bean · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's a bit of an overstatement.

      Most of the major consumer printers are still dye-based. If you wander into a branch of PCWorld or Staples and pick up a printer from one of the displays, it will probably be dye-based. The pigment ones are still quite a bit more expensive. (I was eyeing up the 8-colour epson pigment printers like the R1800 but I couldn't justify the cost).

      --
      -- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a perl script.
  31. I can think of only two reasons... by mwvdlee · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can think of only two reasons why you'd want to print at home.

    1) You need the best possible quality but have no access to a print shop which can deliver it. Reality is that most cheap print shops will not deliver accurate color even if you jump through all the hoops. More expensive print shops can (provided your image meets some criteria) but these can be harder to find. If you're living in Alaska; your may be off a little bit cheaper buying your own printer if you need high quality prints.

    2) You print material isn't supposed to be seen by anybody else. Print shops have access to the images and will usually check prints. So if you have, say, private (intimate?) pictures or other material which may be damaging or not intended for public viewing (secret?), a personal printer is essential. This is basically akin to one of the major reasons digicams became so huge; they allowed you to make pictures without any third party ever being able to watch them.

    --
    Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    1. Re:I can think of only two reasons... by badasscat · · Score: 2, Informative

      1) You need the best possible quality but have no access to a print shop which can deliver it. Reality is that most cheap print shops will not deliver accurate color even if you jump through all the hoops.

      True, and this lets me ask the question - what online print shops *do* allow you to actually use ICC color profiles? I'm sure there are some pro-oriented shops that do, I just don't know which ones. Are there any that are as easy to use/fast/cheap as Kodak (Ofoto), or Shutterfly?

      I have used both Ofoto (wish they'd kept that name) and Shutterfly, and they're easy and quick but the prints are snapshot quality at best. Shutterfly always adds a yellow cast. Ofoto at least does not add a cast but the results are unpredictable.

      2) You print material isn't supposed to be seen by anybody else. Print shops have access to the images and will usually check prints.

      DEFINITELY true :)

      It's a total mistake to assume that nobody's going to handle your prints at one of these photo printers. If nothing else, it's highly likely that somebody is going to physically pick up your stack of prints from the printer and stuff them in an envelope. It's pretty likely that your prints will be quickly checked to at least make sure there were no obvious errors (like only half a photo being printed). People *are* gonna see your prints, just like they did in the days of film processing at your local drug store.

      Personally, I do a mix of both home and online printing, depending on the photo. I do get the best results when printing myself, although I am *sure* I do pay more. For example, I printed out some of my and my wife's wedding photos myself to give out to close friends and family, and then printed the same photos through Ofoto to give to others. The Ofoto prints were okay, but on my own prints I was able to get the colors, contrast and brightness to exactly match what I wanted. Of course, I had to do about 10 test runs before I managed that, and even once I got things set up right, about every other print had some sort of smudge or other imperfection. (Part of that's my printer, but part of it's almost just endemic to home inkjet printing.) So I have no doubt that given all the paper and ink I used, I probably paid at least a buck a print for my own prints, vs. 19 cents or whatever it was for the Ofoto prints. But I did end up with better quality from my prints.

  32. It has nothing to do with the cost by Evets · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The cost per print doesn't mean anything to most consumers. Most people don't run around reading seven different magazines to find the best quality for the best price - they buy the printer that's available when they happen to be at Staple's or Best Buy or wherever it is they happen to be. If the consumer is worried about price, they usually don't shop for the printer with the cheapest ink, they buy the cheapest printer.

    It doesn't have anything to do with cost. It has to do with the time it takes to print. Forget the stats they print, it takes at least a minute for most printers to spit out a picture. When I go to print, I don't have 36 pictures - I have a big fat memory card full of them. I don't want to spend an entire night watching to see that the paper feeds properly or whether or not the ink is full, I want to go online and spend a few bucks to have someone worry about that for me.

    That's not to say consumers don't want a photo printer or they'll never print one at home. People want them. It's nice to be able to print up a small amount of photos, or reprint one that's damaged or missing. Or even print up a batch when they want one right away.

    But come on now. These things have been around for 6 or 7 years. How many photo printers do you want them to buy? People who want them have them. The technology has changed a little, but even so, it's not like people are picking up USA Today and finding out there is new technology available and they need to buy it. The Photo Printer market is nothing like the PC market. People don't care about stats or features. They want a printer that prints pictures and at least 70% of the photo printers out there will do just that. And after they print their third batch of pictures they'll see a sign at Costco that says they do digital prints and the photo printer will end up getting a lot less usage.

  33. Re:No advantage in privacy, convienence, time, etc by David+Off · · Score: 4, Informative
    Or, even things that aren't illegal might run you some trouble.

    That's correct. Julia Sommerville, a British primetime newscaster, got busted by the cops after sending prints of her young daughter to be developed by a UK high st chemist (Boots). In some shots the girl was naked in the bath. After the police released Sommerville someone at Boots leaked the story and photographs to the UK tabloid press.

  34. Here are some real numbers for another printer by lthown · · Score: 2, Informative
    Just finished testing out to see how many prints the picturemate really gives you from a cartridge.

    I was testing with a compatible ink cartridge, I ran the ink through our i1 profiler and so far as I can tell, it's the exact same ink as Epson puts into the PictureMate cartridges. At any rate, you get the exact same yield from a 3rd party cartridge because it's the "level" in the chips which is dependent on the printer, not the actual level of the cartridge, that determines how full a cartridge is.

    For paper, I used our own Micro Ceramic Luster - primarily because I like the luster finish better than the gloss that Epson includes with their cartridges (and the Profile which really makes the prints look good).

    The paper was $11.90 for 100 sheets of 4x6 and the cartridge was $10.39 (these are retail prices, not the employee discount price).

    Here's what we got out of the printer before it forced us to change cartridges:
    • 173 4x6 prints (all but 15 or so were the full 4x6 borderless)
      4 cleaning cycles
      about 10 nozzle checks


    We'll just take the cleanings and nozzle checks as a part of normal use. The 183 sheets of paper cost a total of $21.77 and the cartridge was $10.39 for a total of $32.16 for 173 prints. That averages out to $0.185 for each print. So you're paying 2 1/2 cents more than Costco (usually $0.16 a print including tax) and you don't have to drive anywhere. My wife even took the printer with her to a party and printed pictures while it was still going on!

    So once again, we got an average of 18 and a half cents a print. If I purchased the paper in the 500 pack, it would be $20.49 for the paper giving us $0.178 a print.
  35. what if you edit pictures by azery · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Things change if you edit your pictures. This take quite some time and after your work is done, you often like to verify what you did on paper. So you go to the shop with one picture and ask them to print it.
    This will first of all cost you quite much: they often charge a start-up cost of eg 2$, independantly of the number of pictures you have taken. If you only bring one picture, this cost can not be neglected.
    Then, you see that the colors are not exactly what you desired and you can go home, change your picture and go back to the shop... (you could of course buy a calibrated monitor, but that is not very cheap either)
    Editing pictures can take quite some time. So if you wait until you have eg 20 edited pictures before going to the shop, you will have to wait quite long to actually see your results.

  36. ...unless you refill by jridley · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've been refilling my Canon printer tanks since I got it. Before that, an Epson (PITA) and before that, two HPs. I've never bought a cart for my Canon. It's trivial to refill (hardly harder than putting in a new tank). I've refilled all the tanks about 25 times now.

    I can't tell the difference between prints made with Canon ink and aftermarket ink. In fade tests in sunlight, the aftermarket inks fade about the same as Canon, but last better than Epson (not current generation, I don't do Epson anymore).

    You have to buy properly formulated inks, specifically for your brand/type of printer. If the place is selling "one size fits all" ink, stay away, it's crud. I've tried putting that stuff in printers before, and it really screws up the color balance and the stuff fades in a month.

    I can fill all the tanks in my Canon for about $5, as opposed to $40 for new tanks.

    I found glossy paper on sale a couple of years ago at Office Depot; one of those crazy "nearly free after discounts" sales - something like $5 for 100 sheets. I bought about 20 packs. I might even have to buy paper in another 5 years or so.

    IOW, if you're frugal, you can make your own prints for VERY cheap. I think my 4x6's probably cost 5 cents each.

  37. Who prints 100% anyway? by ErebusNT · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, they are more expensive, but I probably print out less than 1% of what I take pictures of. That's where the savings swing back in my direction, I'm not paying to develop 100% of the pictures I take (only print out pictures to give to friends who don't have e-mail (poor souls!)).

  38. The article misses some points... by Name+Anonymous · · Score: 2, Insightful

    4x6s may be more expensive, however if you just want a few at a time, the gas (or postage) will make using a photo lab the same price or more expensive. And remember going to a photo lab can be two trips and the time required for the trips.

    Also, once you get into larger prints, an inklet printer become cost effetcive. Another way to reduce costs is to buy larger packages of paper and get the paper on sale.

    And then there is print quality. I get much better prints at home than I do from the inexpensive labs. And as for the more expensive labs? Unless you have a profile for their printer, you can get better results at home. An example is something I had a lab print at 2 different times - the prints looked way different. At home the output is consistant.

    And of course, at home I can get a choice of paper to use. Most print labs have at best one or two types of paper you can choose from.

  39. Re:Reason 3 by saider · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For example, 5 minutes before leaving for the school bus, your kid tells you that she needs a picture of her pet fish for show-n-tell.

    I simply remind him that he needs to do all assignments when he gets home from school instead of waiting until the last minute. A zero on the gradebook serves as a good reminder of this.

    Anyway, I find that leaving an inkjet printer idle for too long will cause the ink to dry in the head rendering the printer inoperable. At a minimum you need to clean the heads to remove the cake, and sometimes they just cannot be restored to produce a decent print. I've tried Canons, Epsons and HPs. They all have had this problem. Infrequent use is not their strong suit.

    --


    Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
  40. Makes perfect sense by lorcha · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I'd love to make a few hundred dollar investment on the off-chance that I can teach my kid the lesson that whenever he/she (we'll find out the sex in a few months...) messes up, there will never be any consequences. Daddy will bail him/her out.

    Where can I sign up for that?

    --
    "Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent