419 Emails From A Cultural Perspective

dasboy writes "The LA Times has an article entitled I Will Eat Your Dollars about Nigerian 419 scammers that presents some of the cultural basis for the crime. They follow some young men in Lagos who toil over computers all-day and long into the night to snag a new victim. They even have a fight song entitled 'I Go Chop Your Dollars.'" From the article: "Scammers, he said, 'have the belief that white men are stupid and greedy. They say the American guy has a good life. There's this belief that for every dollar they lose, the American government will pay them back in some way.' What makes the scams so tempting for the targets is that they promise a tantalizing escape from the mundane disappointments of life. The scams offer fabulous riches or the love of your life, but first the magha has to send a series of escalating fees and payments. In a dating scam, for instance, the fraudsters send pictures taken from modeling websites."

Comments

If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[geomon]

Then it probably is. An email from a young, great looking, hard bodied male/female who is rich and has gobs of cash to spend on *you* is probably NOT for real.

More likely is that you will find someone who has your same interests and general income level, whom you will start a relationship with and then waver in and out of interest with.

That's real life.

Of course I still buy an occasional lottery ticket.

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[antonyb]

More likely is that you will find someone who has your same interests and general income level, whom you will start a relationship with and then waver in and out of interest with.

Nothing like aiming high, huh?

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[rebeka thomas]

> That's real life.

Indeed. Real life is that the nigerian scammers are criminals, and deserve to be locked up and/or shot. Not looked at as some kind of cultural escapism that is the necessary end result of a boring life. Get them up off their asses and not indulging in criminality, or jail them. No other options should be considered.

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[geomon]

Nothing like aiming high, huh?

Its called 'human nature'.

Some of the friends I went to college with had plenty of money and great looking girl friends of the type most geeks and social outcasts would worship for their stunning beauty. My more-well-off friends would meet these women and be infatuated with them. Several months would go by and they would be oogling another beauty across the courtyard.

The same is true for my geek friends. They had girl friends who were not stunning, but attractive and smart. They would have been a great companion for anyone. The geek friend would also be infatuated for a few months and then suddenly would be eyeballing another woman in the computer lab.

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[mcrbids]

young, great looking, hard bodied male/female who is rich and has gobs of cash to spend on *you* is probably NOT for real.

Boy, you must have a low opinion of the people who frequent this place!

I got an email like that just yesterday! She was hot, she was great-looking, and she wanted to spend gobs of cash on ME. Of course, she's my wife, I provide the "gobs of cash", and we're going on a trip to the coast leaving tonight, but...

Whatever. It can happen. I mean it. Slashdotters, don't let disparaging slobs like the parent get you down! Cool, good-looking geek-chics ARE out there!

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[hoggoth]

> and then suddenly would be eyeballing another woman in the computer lab

I think I've found the problem...

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[geomon]

Whatever. It can happen. I mean it. Slashdotters, don't let disparaging slobs like the parent get you down! Cool, good-looking geek-chics ARE out there!

This message was brought to you by the 419 Industry Consortium.

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[schon]

scammers are criminals, and deserve to be locked up and/or shot. Not looked at as some kind of cultural escapism that is the necessary end result of a boring life.

Exactly. This whole article seems to be nothing more than sociopathic guilt transference - they know what they're doing hurts other people, so they come up with excuses about their victims in an attempt to mask their guilt.

I'm surprised they didn't use the phrase "everybody does it".

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[MoonBuggy]

The scammers are making decisions that will benefit them while damaging the lives of people who lack the intelligence or information necessary to avoid having their money taken from them.

Now replace the word 'scammer' with the word 'corporation', or even 'politician'. Those new sentences might not always hold true, but you can't tell me you'd be suprised to read either of them and hear that the end result was a resignation or a slap on the wrist.

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[Leto-II]

The same is true for my geek friends. They had girl friends who were not stunning, but attractive and smart. They would have been a great companion for anyone. The geek friend would also be infatuated for a few months and then suddenly would be eyeballing another woman in the computer lab.

You mean the other woman in the computer lab?

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[xappax]

I don't think anyone (except them) would claim that their excuses are a fair justification for stealing from gullible, often not-so wealthy americans, but that doesn't mean we should ignore them.

Understanding the social and economic context that this sort of crime takes place in is important, especially if we want to combat it. Poverty and lack of education, while certainly not justifications for crime, are often part of the cause.

Much like muslim terrorists, I think it's always better to have an understanding of what's going on with the people who try to screw us over so hard, instead of just imagining them as mustachio twirling villains who are out to get us because, well, they're the bad guys.

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[geomon]

You mean the other woman in the computer lab?

I know that this may sound like a fantasy equal to those in the 419 scams but when I was an undergraduate two decades ago, there were LOTS of women in the computer labs. The women who worked on computers back then were mathematics majors, accounting majors, and a few who were working toward a degree in computer science. The number of women in computer science was small (2% of the total in the department), but when you added in all of the other majors using the VAX system for their classes, the number was probably closer to 40%. The university I attended has a strong business school and the accounting majors have been recruited nationally for three decades. By the early 1980s, the population of the accounting department more than 50% women.

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[schon]

These guys, while scumbags, have not killed anyone (yet).

Sure about that?

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[schon]

Understanding the social and economic context that this sort of crime takes place in is important, especially if we want to combat it.

While true, it doesn't really help if all you're doing is navel-gazing. Case in point:

Poverty and lack of education, while certainly not justifications for crime, are often part of the cause.

This is true for most crimes (not all of course - some are committed by the rich and priveliged) so it's really nothing new. Constantly bringing it up is just over-analyzing the problem.

I think it's always better to have an understanding of what's going on with the people who try to screw us over so hard

Yes, but at some point you must actually *start doing something*. Understanding, by itself, only solves victimless crimes. As there are definite victims to this, then the understanding is meaningless without additional action.

Re:If It Sounds Too Good To Be True

[Em Adespoton]

As a clarification to this, many 419 scams are set up as follows:

An organized crime ring in some country goes into a low-income district, and finds a few mildly educated people who are short on cash. They loan them some money, and then tell them they can pay it back by pulling a few 419 scams on some rich americans they've got lined up who deserve it.

The scammer sends out the scam to the email list provided, and eventually hooks a sucker or two.

At this point, a number of things may happen, but the scammer is usually not allowed to actually handle any "real" cash themselves; organized crime steps in and takes it from here.

In some cases, the scammer is told to lure the victim to an airport in some country. The crime ring has someone (sometimes even the scammer) set up to meet them, and then has someone else "vanish" the rich foreigner and take their money/ID. The money/ID is then used in the crime ring's other operations, usually to move between countries or launder dirty goods/money.

One thing I've never heard of in these cases is what happens to the hired scammers; one could conjecture that they might also be "vanished" at the end of a job, or it could be a situation where if they get results, they're added onto the payroll permanently, and if they don't, they're pressed to repay the loan some other way and things go on from there.

Of course, there are also the educated teenagers who hang out at internet cafes, and do it for kicks. Usually you can tell the difference, as the hired scammers tend to use one of a limited set of form mails, wheras the bored teens get a bit more original, although they usually end up leaving out something necessary to make the scam actually work.

Really?

[lucabrasi999]

They say the American guy has a good life.

Walk a mile in my shoes, buddy. You'll find out it ain't all peachs 'n cream.

Re:Really?

[Hogwash McFly]

And your shoes find out what it's like to walk a mile...

Re:Really?

[mrchaotica]

I should hope not! Walking a mile through peaches and cream would suck!

Re:Really?

[cyber0ne]

Walk a mile in my shoes, buddy. You'll find out it ain't all peachs 'n cream.

A friend of mine from another country once said he felt sorry for me because I have Bush as a president. I responded, "Me? Hell, I feel sorry for you. At least I'm not subject to his foreign policy."

Re:Really?

[RobertB-DC]

Foo: They say the American guy has a good life.

Bar: Walk a mile in my shoes, buddy. You'll find out it ain't all peachs 'n cream.

Yeah. You've got it bad, here in America (I assume) with "the run-down, teeming streets, the grimy buildings, the broken refrigerators stacked outside, the strings of wet washing. It's the kind of place where plainclothes police prowl the streets extorting bribes, where mobs burn thieves to death for stealing a cellphone, and where some people paint "This House Is Not For Sale" in big letters on their homes, in case someone posing as the owner tries to put it on the market."

Oh, my bad. That's the description (from the FA) of the conditions of the folks who you're asking to "walk in your shoes". There's no way anyone from the US, Canada, or Europe (including myself) could even concieve of what it's like to live in such conditions with no way out.

Wrong is wrong, and the young man profiled in the article has more guts than most to see that and turn his back on it. But to completely ignore the factors behind the bad behavior is counterproductive at best. "Root causes" (of crime, poverty, terrorism, etc) may be overrated, but it's hard to defeat an enemy if you don't know his motivation.

Or maybe Slashdot dropped the [sarcasm] tag from your post...

Re:Really?

[Viper Daimao]

Walk a mile in my shoes, buddy. You'll find out it ain't all peachs 'n cream.

Doubtful. You most likely have a personal computer that you can call your own, or perhaps your family's. You probably eat well, have a closet full of clothes to choose from, get a free education (high school), or pay(have payed for) for a good quality education if you're in college. Chances are that you own your own car, or can use on of your families cars. Given the current US unemployment percentage (5.1%) you most likely have a job. You spend your free time on niche news websites such as slashdot. I could go on, but the point is, you (and I also fit into all of those above claims), that we have a good life compared to most the rest of the world, regardless of where we fit in on the American class system.

Now, that all being said, it is in no way an excuse for these immoral scams. Stealing is wrong no matter what and these people prey on the old and poor who are ticked into this scam. What they do is unexcusable, and their reasoning offered in the article is just that, excuses for behavoir they know is wrong.

Re:Really?

[jcr]

You've got it bad, here in America (I assume) with "the run-down, teeming streets, the grimy buildings, the broken refrigerators stacked outside, the strings of wet washing.

Have you ever been to West Virginia?

-jcr

Re:Really?

[drooling-dog]

You'll find out it ain't all peachs 'n cream.

Not at all. Wednesday is Spaghetti Day!

Re:Really?

[nine-times]

"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, when you criticize him, you'll be a mile away, and you'll have his shoes."

I don't know who said it, but it's the first thing I think of these days when people talk about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

Anyhow, for the people criticizing this guy for whining, remember that this is the whole point of the "walk a mile..." saying. Everyone's life is filled with trouble. That's what life is. Some may have it better, and some may have it worse, but if you think anyone has it so good that they deserve to be hurt, then you probably don't understand what that person's life is really like.

(That's one idea, anyway)

Re:Really?

[mrchaotica]

But the scammers aren't the poor people living in those conditions! On the contrary, they're the rich and educated Nigerians -- if they weren't, they wouldn't have the knowledge and resources to perpetrate the scams (e.g. speaking English and having enough money for Internet access). See Section 5 of this for details.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Meoward]

Have you ever been to West Virginia?

You mean the state with the motto "Thank God for Mississippi" ?

Re:Really?

[arpk4n3]

It's also a massive implementation of cultural relativism. America typically is extremely arrogant in international affairs, applying its standards and judgements to the rest of the world. For example, in India, the average worker lives off of $12-$13 per MONTH. This is well below what America considers to be a "poverty" level. Yet the country's population of 1.2 billion continues to grow. Not to mention cotton is free in India, 10 pounds of rice can be bought for $1, and their cultural and spiritual beliefs find no need for materialism (espoused best in America I think by Wal-Mart and other discount retailers). It's all a question of standards and culture. People in India don't think they're poor, they enjoy living. People in America, with all of their wealth and "development", are never satisfied. Intriguing. We think we have it best, but this is a nation NOT built upon ideals of liberty, but of property. Also intriguing. But we have the right to be the judge and jury over other nations?

Re:Really?

[pedroloco]

they wouldn't have the knowledge and resources to perpetrate the scams (e.g. speaking English and having enough money for Internet access)

Considering that English is Nigeria's official language, I don't think English speaking skills is necessarily a good metric with which to judge the education of Nigerians.

You may have a valid point about Internet access, though.

Re:Really?

[shawb]

north

You are in a wasteland of twisting subdivisions, all the same. Exits are North, South, East, West.

>west

You are in a wasteland of twisting subdivisions, all the same. Exits are North, South, East, West.

>north

You are in a wasteland of twisting subdivisions, all the same. Exits are North, South, East, West.

>east

You are in a wasteland of twisting subdivisions, all the same. Exits are North, South, East, West.

>north

You are in Canda. You want a Molsen's ay?

gasp!

[hometoast]

I demand that King Neferspamstu cease and desist using my modeling photos for financial gain. I do not waive my rights under the DMCA.

Delusions

[Hrodvitnir]

"the American guy has a good life. There's this belief that for every dollar they lose, the American government will pay them back in some way."

This is not a new thinking. Many crooks try to justify what they are doing by making it seem that they are not hurting anyone, at least not as much as they are.

Re:Delusions

[Dante Shamest]

Many crooks try to justify what they are doing by making it seem that they are not hurting anyone, at least not as much as they are.

WMD! Freedom! =)

Seriously though, nobody thinks they're the bad guy. I remember reading a Terry Pratchett book, where this ruler said "I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides."

Re:Delusions

[Chosen Reject]

Sounds like a lot of arguments we hear about the legitamacy of pirating. "They make so much money anyway," "Yeah but they screw over the artists," "It's all crap that I wouldn't have bought anyway," etc.

Greed

[tekn0lust]

I would have to agree that the anonymous American is a greedy fool.

Where else do you see people react to being in an accident like they won the lottery? Be it medical, car, workplace. Get hurt and bingo, how can I get paid.

Tough to admit, but deep down everyone has some greed. Greed is a survival trait. Greed doesn't apply only to money, but to status, acceptance, and a miriad other indicators be them material or immaterial.

Most scams rely heavily on the scamee forgoing rational thought to bite the lure. Nothing clouds judgement like a big payday or a supermodel.

American's are in for a rough ride when China becomes the next superpower and greed is a major reason why.

--signed "A greedy American"

Re:Greed

[gowen]

Despite the obvious demerits of these fairly crass generalisations, the simple fact is there must be a fairly sizeable chunk of westerners who are initially gullible, stupid enough to trust an anonymous Nigerian emailer and extremely greedy, or these scams would have died out years ago.

But, hey, if I wanted to castigate the moral fibre of certain sections of American life, I'd draw attention to the sort of moron who throws parties outside jails whenever there's an execution...

Re:Greed

[kidgenius]

Yes, the americans may be greedy. But what about the greed of the individuals that are performing these scams? Why is American greed seen as "bad", but these Nigerian's greed can be justified?

Re:Greed

[eln]

the Great American Insurance Sudo Lottery

So the winners of the lottery get to execute certain commands as root? Where do I buy a ticket?

Re:Greed

[Andrewkov]

Don't forget that for many people around the world, their only exposure to American culture is TV. They think everyone drives around in Porshes and lives in multi-million dollar homes.

When I was in the Dominican Republic, one of the locals asked me for my jacket .. his justification for asking was that a $200 jacket is nothing to me, I can buy 10 more when I get home.

They are right about one thing...

[hcob$]

Only greedy people fall for the "I have $18346205826.54 US, and I need someone to help me get it out of the country." So, how can you feel truly sorry for someone who is attempting to commit a crime and gets scammed out of his money?

Re:They are right about one thing...

[argStyopa]

It's the oldest wisdom in the con business.

The best cons work take advantage of people who believe they are already cheating someone or doing something illegal/unethical.

You cannot be tempted to do anything you wouldn't do anyway.

Honestly the best site regarding 419 scammers

[mattyohe]

http://www.419eater.com/
 
An informational website that helps you scam the scammers.

Re:Were YOU suckered?

[Bastard of Subhumani]

I'll buy a beer for anyone who admits to being taken in by these chumps.

So will I, but I'll require advance payment of the shipping & administrative costs. So just send your bank details to ...

The video totally rocks

[RobotWisdom]

Quicktime

The lyrics there are helpful because the accent is hard to understand.

Psychology of scammers

[GGardner]

I'm sure that the scammers have tuned their art extensively, and know a thing or two about the human psyche. However, I always wondered why they promised such huge payoffs. If someone offers me $100 million dollars in easy money, all my scam detectors go off at once. On the other hand, if someone asked me to do that same thing for $20, I would probably be more willing to go along with it.

Re:Psychology of scammers

[spitzak]

Once they get a dupe, they want to milk him for as much as possible. If you fell for the $20 scam, it seems unlikely they would be able to extract more than $20 from you before you realized that something was wrong and quit sending money. But if you fall for the $10 million scam, they may be able to extract tens of thousands of dollars before you realize something is wrong.

So as long as the number of people who will be duped falls slower than 1/dollars, they have an incentive to make the amount as high as possible.

Also apparently once they find a dupe, it requires significan work to fool them into sending the money. This work is probably constant per dupe. Thus getting $20 from 1000 people may not be worth the effort, while $20,000 from one person is.

Re:Were YOU suckered?

[lucabrasi999]

I'll buy a beer for anyone who admits to being taken in by these chumps.

If you buy me a beer, I'll even admit to sleeping with my sister.

Cultural greed

[saskboy]

We have a lot of cultural greed in North America, so its understandable how some other cultures would perceive us as greedy. It's too bad they don't realize that the people they scammed do not get paid back for the money they lose.

If I were stuck in a 3rd world country with corrupt governments and no legitimate way to feed myself, I'd be tempted to turn to scamming "rich" people too. And in North America, the middle class is rich compared to most of the world's population. In Canada it would take about 5 Earths* to sustain our current level of consumption. [*source: The Nature of Things from a few days ago.]

Re:Were YOU suckered?

[eln]

That's not that impressive, I've slept with your sister too.

Advance_fee_fraud

[distantbody]

"This type of scam, originally known as the "Spanish Prisoner Letter" [2], has been carried out since at least the sixteenth century via ordinary postal mail.">>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_fee_f raud

Studid and Greedy...

[32Na]

Scammers, he said, 'have the belief that white men are stupid and greedy.

I think scammers give us lots of evidence of their own stupidity and greed. Some of my greatest laughs come from reading over their mail (it comes about once a week right now):

...I am compensating you with 10% of the total money Amount, now all my hope is banked on you and I really wants to invest this money in your country, were their is stabilities of Government, political and economic welfare. Honestly I want you to believe that this transaction is real and never a joke.

That is genius at work!

Re:stupid and greedy?!?!

[tjw]

Bomb Them!

Yeah, so we're stupid and greedy. Maybe if these fools were aware of the dangerous combination of these two traits with our uncontrollable lust for war and violence they would be more careful about what they say.

Cultural Relativism

[dslauson]

You can only lean on cultural relativism so much.

What I mean is, regardless of the culture you were raised in and the social climate of your environment, at some point, wrong is wrong is wrong.

In this category, I would put anything that infringes on the rights of other human beings, including murder, assault, and, yes, simple theft.

Justify it all you want. Yes, the people who fall for it are often greedy and stupid, but that doesn't make the act of the perpitrators any less wrong.

Re:Cultural Relativism

[drooling-dog]

Nobody's justifying anything. You're making the common conservative error of mistaking an effort to understand a thing as an attempt to condone it. Righteousness and moral indignation have their place, but if you want to really understand why people behave the way they do, sometimes you just have to let it rest for a little while. There's a lot of good children's literature for those who require a moral lesson with every story.

This is all true.

[labratuk]

But they do make great penpals. Like the guy in my sig, for instance.

Why wouldn't they think it's OK?

[Kohath]

Aren't these scams just what "social justice" is supposed to be -- stealing from people because INSERT JUSTIFICATION HERE ?

Justifications:

- It's their fair share.
- They did XYZ THING in the past
- Their ancestors did XYZ THING in the distant past
- They have a different skin color than me
- They have a different religion than me
- They can afford it
- Etc.

The justifications aren't really relevant, BTW. They're just flavor. People steal/tax/defraud/embezzle/con because they want the money and because they can.

Re:Why wouldn't they think it's OK?

[spun]

Let me pose a question. Someone sells you a bike for $10. Later that day, someone else proves to you that they own the bike and that it was stolen from them. Do you give the bike back to the rightful owner? If you refuse, and he takes it back, is he stealing?

Now, assume that all land was originally unowned by anyone. Then it was held in common. No man owned it, but the whole tribe used it. Then someone develops the notion of private property. They put up a fence and use force to keep out the orginal users of the resource.

All resources were originally taken with no more moral authority than "I have the power to take this from you and keep it." Since then, the unfairness of the distribution system has only escalated the problem, as those who unfairly stole more resources had more power to keep and hold yet more resources. So the entire system of private property is based on theft and unfair advantage. How does this system benefit the common person? Why should they buy into and support such a system? Try to answer without refering to such imaginary concepts as "God given" or "natural" rights.

Re:Why wouldn't they think it's OK?

[ifwm]

Yeah, see this one

"- It's their fair share."

You just did it. You tried to justify one wrong by referring to another.

The problem is, I completely reject your concept that

"the entire system of private property is based on theft and unfair advantage."

Primarily, how can it be theft if (as you claim) NO ONE owned it? What you fail to consider is that some people have doen MORE than their fair share to protect their exclusive use of these resources. They found them, developed them, exploited and, most importantly, protected them.
Dismissing their effort because you reject property ownership is just propaganda, and has no basis in reason at all.

If you put in a larger amount of effort, then you deserve a greater share.

"How does this system benefit the common person?"

By allowing them the opportunity to work harder, and thus gain more than someone who works less.

Re:Why wouldn't they think it's OK?

[Kohath]

How does this system benefit the common person?

It produces a stable, well-defined system where "the common person" can work hard, save, and have a good life for himself and his family.

In societies based on corruption and theft, the common man can't save, only the strong man. The strong man steals the savings of the common man and adds it to his own.

Why should they buy into and support such a system?

They should look at the results. Free-market, low-corruption, private-property societies work. And they work well. And they work for large populations. And they work for small, meduim, and large income disparities. And they continue to work for long periods of time.

Private property systems need not be defended on moral grounds, though they easily can be. When you take the fruits of someone's labor, you're effectively taking the labor itself. And taking someone's labor is also known as slavery. Slavery is bad.

The bottom line is that private property systems work, and none of the other systems work nearly as well.

What do you expect?

[Jonnty]

Kovacsics said victims can't believe that a scammer would spend months of internet chat just to net $700 or $1,000, not realizing that is big money in Nigeria and fraudsters will have many scams running at the same time. If you take that attitude, not realising money is actually worth something, I think it'd be pretty inevitable people thinking you are "greedy."

Dating fraud

[Safe Sex Goddess]

Dating fraud isn't new. I saw an episode of the History Detectives where they tracked down some photographs to a scam mail order bride company in Chicago during the late 1800's.

The truth is people don't have time to investigate every purchase or offer they're made. And often the more desperate someone is the more eager they are to grasp at straws that purport to offer a way out of their desperation. Just watch the televangelists who sell prayer rags for debt relief.

Re:Were YOU suckered?

[RobertB-DC]

I'll buy a beer for anyone who admits to being taken in by these chumps.

Amateur. It goes like this:

HELLO I AM PRINCE FALFURALL SON OF KING FELLOVERDED WHO TRAGICLEY DIED IN A BRWERY ACCIDENT. THE CORUPT LOCAL OFFICALS HAVE IMPOUNDED ALL THE BEER BUT THE MINISTER OF TRADE CAN ARRANGE A TANKER TRUCK TO EXPORT 1,736,000.50 LITERS TO SENEGAL BUT ONLY FOR A UNITD STATES NATIONAL. IF YOU WILL HELP ME TRANSPORT THE BEER I WILL GIVE YOU TEN (10) PERCENT OR 173600 GALLONS PLEASE CONTACT ME ASAP GOD BLESS YOU!!~~!

dating scams are old.

[Lumpy]

Cripes the Ukranian dating site scams have been around for over 5 years now. I remember a friend getting sucked in on that at work paying for "fees" and then paying for "english lessons" for the girl he really liked. he was eventually bilked out of $5000.00 before he got a clue.

The nigerians are way behind in their scams.

Re:Were YOU suckered?

[Lifewish]

A street guy managed to con a decent chunk of money (about £30) out of me one time. I was young and naive, but felt less idiotic after I discovered he'd also got two of my friends in separate incidents. Obviously a) he was very efficient and b) I hang around with a lot of gullible people...

Who is stupid and greedy again?

[Fnkmaster]

[They] have the belief that white men are stupid and greedy.

That's rather ironic. If you read 419eater or any of the other "scam the scammer" sites out there, it's pretty clear who the stupid and greedy ones are in this game.

While I don't have too much respect for the intellect of the average American, the people who actually fall for these scams are probably the most stupid and greedy among our population, but they are a fraction of a percent of Americans. Most people have long since been trained to spot these things for what they are now and recognize that if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is. The Internet is no different from the rest of life in that way.

The scammers, however, are too stupid to realize that if a scammee is asking for absurd, ridiculous acts to be documented on film, then the joke is almost certainly on the scammer.

I have pretty much no empathy for these people, no matter how poor they are or what adversity they have faced. They have turned to common thuggery to steal that which they feel entitled to, instead of trying to earn an honest living the way we, or our parents, or our grandparents who came from equally poor backgrounds in other parts of the world did. Every time a scammer dies a miserable death, baby Jesus smiles.

Until the entire continent of Africa learns a more constructive ethic of hard work and self-help, all the charity in the world won't help them.

Let's have some perspective

[Safe Sex Goddess]

It's funny how we seem to get most upset when it's people who have almost nothing doing the scamming. Yet when rich folk do scamming, like the Savings & Loan scandal, Enron, Worldcom, and so on, people don't get so upset.

I can't tell you how many times I hear about welfare fraud where someone might net a few hundred dollars a month, but these same people never once mention the corporate people who steal millions or hundreds of millions of dollars. Or corporate bosses who steal the pension plans from people who have worked hard all their careers and are left with nothing. Thank god for social security so they won't starve.

So right now we're worried about some Nigerians stealling tens of millions a year when we've got tens of billions in medical fraud going on in this country.

Get some perspective.

Re:Let's have some perspective

[krunk4ever]

I disagree with your following statement:

It's funny how we seem to get most upset when it's people who have almost nothing doing the scamming. Yet when rich folk do scamming, like the Savings & Loan scandal, Enron, Worldcom, and so on, people don't get so upset.

Do you know how many people lost their jobs, lost their entire retirement savings account, and had to start from scratch from the Enron scandal? If you not, I'd recommend you to watch: Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room.

I don't know about others, but I've always felt these nigerian scandals as a joke and anyone that falls for it is an idiot. But I've truly felt sick to the stomach at what some of these corporate scandals involved. There were hardly any signs for any of the employees or anyone affected by the scandal to see it coming, especially for the lower level guys.

But here's a fact of life, most people just won't care until they've been affected by it too, thinking that'll never happen to them.

Re:Let's have some perspective

[ScentCone]

It's funny how we seem to get most upset when it's people who have almost nothing doing the scamming. Yet when rich folk do scamming, like the Savings & Loan scandal, Enron, Worldcom, and so on, people don't get so upset.

What the hell are you talking about? This is not insightful, this is class-baiting anti-business nonsense painting with a stupidly broad brush and getting the facts wrong (not that doing so ever stopped a good anti-business rant, of course). But let's say you're immune to all of the CEOs-Going-To-Jail media coverage. The reason "we" don't get so upset is because something is done about people like that. They lose their jobs, page huge (usually bankrupting) fines, and then give up their liberty as they go to actual prison. The billions and billions that are lost to petty scams, inside retail theft, check/credit fraud, identity theft... that stuff makes us mad because people are rarely caught. Profiles about people who do it are inflammatory for that very reason.

Re:Let's have some perspective

[spun]

Because his self image rests on believing that he is a good person who is part of a good society. If he were to believe that he was a part of an unjust society, he would need to do something about the injustice in order to go on believing he was a good person.

The myth of modern American capitalism says that almost all CEOs are good and decent people and that the few bad apples are always brought to justice. The truth of the matter is that one almost has to be corrupt to get to that level in business, most who are caught get off with a handslap, and those who get brought to justice are still welcomed back into the fold by their corrupt cronies after they get out of the pen.

Re:Let's have some perspective

[spun]

I'm 35, have started and run my own businessess, worked for small, medium and large size businessess, and am doing very well for myself. I know I could be making more money, but I have acheived a comfortable balance of work, family, and play that suits me well. I don't think that everyone who makes more money than me is corrupt. Many of them make more money because they care more about money than I do, and that is fine.

I have seen corruption firsthand in all sizes of business. I see that our economic system rewards unfairness. There are real problems with our culture, and trying to sweep them under the rug won't make them go away. You claim that people are bitter over the wrong things. I suppose your godlike omniscience allows you to determine what the right things are. It must be nice, but me, I lack that omniscience, so I'll go on believing what my senses and logical faculties tell me.

I wish things were different but I get no joy or sense of personal justification out of believing that the world is screwed up. Quite frankly, I want it fixed for selfish reasons, not for some arbitrary concept of good: I would be happier in a world that was more fair.

In closing, let me apologize for my underhanded ad hominem of calling your moral character into question. I'm sure you are a decent fellow. And no, I'm not being facetious. You are smart, literate, and have actually put some thought into things. This puts you miles ahead of most people, liberal or conservative.

Not exclusive of 419 SCAMS

[Spy der Mann]

Is the average american stupid and gullible? Let's see what Mr. Infomercial can tell us.

"Forget about diets! Forget about exercise! With the new fat-o-free efervescent pills, you can get from THIS (fat lady in picture) to THIS (supermodel)! Forget about those tight clothes (B/W scene shown)! Start your new, slim life, with fat-o-free! 1-900-IAMA-DUMB. CALL NOW! Our operators will be pleased to help you! And if you call in the next 30 minutes, you get F-R-E-E our how-to-lose-weight manual. (blinking)C-A-L-L---N-O-W!!!!!"

As I said in an earlier post, the media and commercialized culture has "educated" the american mind into believing there are easy magical solutions for all our problems, instead of investigating the problems from the root and encouraging hard work. And if material solutions don't work, then somebody must be affecting your karma (and there we go, to the next degree of scams: If it doesn't work is because you don't have faith!).

The apparition of 419 scams was just a matter of time. (Kinda brought it upon themselves, if you ask me)

It sickens me somewhat...

[Now.Imperfect]

These people think they're scamming the "rich american", when I bet that more often than not they're scamming some old person who lives off medicare and drives across the border to Canada to get their medication, or some poor guy who's retarded and subsceptible to the weakest of scamming tries.

In which case, they (the victim) isn't exactly guilty of greed as much as being gullible.

The phrase "stealing candy from a baby" comes to mind.

I tried a dating website

[WormholeFiend]

And a person from Africa contacted me... I looked at the photo in the person's profile, and imagine my surprise to find out that Tyra Banks wanted to date me!

Apparently the fact that there was a slight distance and ocean between us didn't seem to matter.

When I pointed out that, "hey Tyra, the copyright notice is still on the photo" (from a well known magazine), the person sadly stopped sending me messages...

Who really looses

[AndyG314]

have the belief that white men are stupid and greedy. They say the American guy has a good life. There's this belief that for every dollar they lose, the American government will pay them back in some way.

I would be willing to bet that the people most victomized by these crimes are not the well-to-do busness men or the double income no kids, but the struggling to make ends meet, the elderly and the uneducated. That the way it is with the lotery, conmen and most other scams. These people make easer marks.

I myself admit...

[guruevi]

I have once been on one of those online trading sites (like e-bay) and someone offered a single new laptop for about 700 USD. It seemed nice enough, still in the box and the price was very good. I suspected something about the price but replied anyway. The dude said he was selling it because he was a yuppie from the UK and he ordered the wrong product but couldn't get refunded.
I myself am from another EU-state so it had to be shipped over. He told me he was going to use this and this shipping company with 3-way system (escrow service) and take all the costs on him.

The site seemed legit, even had some sort of certificate of a known site for e-commerce (it said on their site) but before I agreed I checked the "click here to certify" link which took me to another site saying the certificate was correct but not quite the site of the issuer. Checking the real site of the advertised certificate the site was not in their lists.

I contacted that certificate site to verify and they said there was no certificate issued for the site so they were going to do the necessary steps. I mailed the dude saying that I wanted to use another escrow service because the site was abusing the logo of certificate issuer and that I contacted authorities and never heard from him again, his e-mail doesn't exist anymore etc.

I was almost tricked into such scam and I understand that some are being scammed buying christmas gifts for their grandchildren. But some promises are indeed too great (like the nigerian scamming letters) and should trigger something inside any sane persons head that there is something fishy.

My advice to anyone with online business: if it looks, hears or smells fishy, then check everything being said and promised until the bottom!

Cons require marks with a little dishonesty

[yndrd]

It's an old truism of the con artists' trade that the best kind of mark is the person who thinks they're getting something for nothing--that they're really scamming the con artist.

This is my favorite element of the crime: taking advantage of a desire to take advantage.

Hooray for duelling dishonesty!

I love those Nigerian scams, if only because I like the fact that someone says, "I'm going to pull a fast one on this Nigerian yokel for all that money."

Hahaha

[T_ConX]

People who far for this don't even deserve to have money in the first place.

I get 419s all the time, but for reasons I will never understand, I never get them from Nigeria. It's always Sierra Leone this or Niger that.

I'm willing to wager a guess why...

Scammer1: Dude, our scam is all over the American media, no ones goinna fall for our empty promises of Nigerian riches!
Scammer2: What if we... hum... say we're from Niger? It's not like the stupid Americans can figure it out
Scammer1: Brilliant!
...
Idiot: What's this? Some poor fellow in Niger wants me to help him get $100 Billion out of the country, and will give me... 20%! Oh, but is it a scam... no, of course not! This ones from Niger, not Nigeria like those other emails!

Re:Bad Guys

[vertinox]

Much like muslim terrorists, I think it's always better to have an understanding of what's going on with the people who try to screw us over so hard, instead of just imagining them as mustachio twirling villains who are out to get us because, well, they're the bad guys.

That is the most insightful thing I have seen in a while and totally agree...

Like the UK Transit bombings when someone says "Maybe they bombed us because we have troops in Iraq?" they get shouted down as providing excuses for the Terrorists, but the fact of the matter is that people just don't wake up one morning and say "Well I am going to blow myself up today for no good reason!"

Whatever reason they may have is actually important to the situation, but I stress it is not excusable to go and murder, steal, and scam people, but if you want to defeat the enemy you must know their motives.

It is how the detective and intelligence catches these criminal... To psychologically understand who this person maybe and also recognize signs of another possible criminal.

And it irks me to no end when I see police or soldiers refer to the enemy as "the bad guys" with no respect to understanding why they do the things they do. Sure it is there job to kill or apprehend the criminal/enemy, but these people are doing it for reasons that may seem justified in their own eyes.

If you sit back and recognize these justification you might have a better chance of avoiding and preventing being scammed, assaulted, or surviving the attach when it happens.

As Sun Tzu said "Know thyself, know thy enemy and win the battle every time.". (paraphrased)

My favorite counter-scam ...

[John Jorsett]

... was the guy who responded to one of these emails, saying that the money would really come in handy, as he was in dire financial straits. As the series progressed, he escalated it to the point where he had killed his girlfriend (he sent the 419er a picture of her blood-soaked "body" in a bathtub), and now needed the money to flee the country. Meanwhile, the 419er is still trying to get some money out of him. One of the funniest things I've ever read on the net.

Not all victims are greedy.

[psyon1]

Did anyone ever look into how many of the victims are seniors? Seniors are preyed upon by corrupt people everywhere. Alot of seniors barely have enough money in their retirement years to live. Alot of them require expensive medications to survive. The slightest chance of not having to worry about money, or being able to leave something for their children or grand children is enough for them to sink their last dollars into something that is most likely a scam. At some point in your life, the hope that it is reall is all you have left.

Re:Bad Guys

[Chris Burke]

Whatever reason they may have is actually important to the situation, but I stress it is not excusable to go and murder, steal, and scam people, but if you want to defeat the enemy you must know their motives.

The problem is many people don't understand the difference between an explanation (why something happened) and an excuse (why what happened is okay).

This has led to the belief that understanding terrorists is the same as excusing the terrorists.

This has led to us not understanding the terrorists, and thus being ineffective at fighting them.

I have a real problem with any life view that makes failing to solve problems a requisite outcome.

Part of the point, though...

[argStyopa]

Is that America is a society of 'Caveat Emptor' - let the buyer beware.
We've got laws and a social order that reviles scamsters, conmen, and thieves BUT there is also a sort of Robin-Hood admiration for someone with the chutzpah and intelligence to pull this over on someone. Hollywood has been fascinated by these characters for decades: Paper Moon, The Sting, The Grifters, etc

Let's be totally honest: when you read about some grandma or naive intarweb n00b being taken in on one of these scams, your gut reaction isn't "that darn naughty criminal!" it's "WTF? Who could be STUPID enough to fall for this nonsense?"

It's financial Darwinism. Frankly, if someone with $200,000 to blow loses it to a Nigerian scammer, it's practically justified. If they were a different moral character, they'd blow it on drugs, gambling, the Church, or any number of the millions of expensive tarpits lying around for the unwary.

Free will to blame

[spun]

People don't like to acknowledge these kinds of arguments because they seem to say that people are influenced by their environment, instead of acting with perfect free will, where every decision comes entirely from the individual will and is unaffected by reality.

If this kind of argument was true, then maybe there is no real merit in making good decisions. You didn't make the right decisions because you are good, smart and hard working, you made those decisions because of circumstances beyond your control. Most people's ego is based on a sense of worth stemming from their beliefs in their own correct life choices. If choices are determined by environment, the entire sense of ego and self worth disappears.

People also don't like even the hint that there might be a reason for bad behavior. The reason is because those are bad people. Bad people should be punished. End of story. Simply saying, "they might have done that bad thing because of poverty, or inequality, or whatnot" is like saying, "not only are they not fully to blame, but you may be partly to blame for contributing to an environment that makes their bad behavior unavoidable." No one likes to hear that.

This mindset is so prevalent that it discourages most people from ever using their brains to look honestly at the patterns and cycles that lead to negative behavior. Couple this with the fact that many people (police, politicians, etc.) indirectly profit from the bad behavior of others, and you can see why these bad behaviors persist.

Dehumanize your target

[Hoi Polloi]

One of the first things you must do to hurt strangers is to dehumanize them, war propaganda is a classic example of this. Anti-abortionists portray pro-choice folks as "baby murderers", Muslim extremists portray all Westerners as "immoral perverted satanists", Iraqi insurgents are all "freedom hating terrorists", etc. Serial killers are notorious for referring to their victims as "things".

These conmen in Nigeria can work without bothering their consciences by just dismissing Americans as gullible and rich fools who deserve to be ripped off. Maybe if they saw how real the damage was that they inflicted on the desperate some of them might think twice. The ones without consciences, lock 'em up.

Re:Bad Guys

[Stiletto]

A soldier's job is to do what he/she's told, not what they think is right.

This is a good recipe for genocide.

What I can't figure out...

[hullabalucination]

...is how someone who was dumb enough to cough up $200,000 to a scammer was smart enough to have accumulated $200,000 (or maneuvered themselves into a position to get their hands on that much) to begin with.
Perhaps it was some naive person squandering an inheritence. That's the only scenario that even begins to make sense.

Re:Really? Really? Really?

[triumphDriver]

Call me names if it makes you feel better about your point of view.

I do not and did not mean to imply that the U.S. is at the same level as Haiti or Nigeria or any other third world county. The U.S. is a land of plenty and is extremely rich in comparison. But that does not mean we do not have our fair share of people at the bottom.

Yes, ****YOU**** probably could work your way out of it. I am assuming that you are not mentally ill and have an IQ above room tempeture. You probably have a background of support and encouragement from friends and family.

However, their are lots of people in the U.S. who are either mentally ill or who do not have the intelligence as you put it to lift themselves out of it. Even beyond those special cases of mental illness or less than average intelligence many people just do not have the skills to lift themselves out of poverty.

If your parents are not high school graduates you are much less likely to become one and will in general earn a lot less than a High school graduate. Working at a minimum wage job does not supply you with much of a safety net. One serious illness or upset and you are back on the street. Severe poverty is a vicious thing it saps people of a hope and a belief they can do it.
I am an example of the American Dream: Wife, Kids, Good Job, House, cars etc in general a good life. I am doing better than my parents. But to think I did it by all by myself would be very egotistical. I did it with help from my family and friends. If I see farther and do more, it is because I stand on their shoulders.

Re:Bad Guys

[PsiPsiStar]

As Sun Tzu said "Know thyself, know thy enemy and win the battle every time.". (paraphrased)

Sun Tzu was giving advice to generals, not soldiers. He also emphasized that in battle, fleeing should not be viewed by one's troops as a possibility. You fight close to home or with your back to a mountain, and your strength will be doubled. In ancient warfare, most casualties occurred during a willy nilly retreat rather than actual battle.

To put it another way, one strategy in a game of 'chicken' is to throw your steering wheel out the window and make sure your opponent sees it.

Enemies are less likely to fight if they see their defeat as inevitable and their opposition's will is unbreakable and the possibility of a just peace is offered to them.