Google Summer of Code Results

Nattfodd writes "Almost two months after the projects, deadline, partial (but fairly complete) results of Google Summer of Code are here. The completion rate of projects (and thus payment of the students) was approximately 90%, which would certainly qualify for a 'huge success' of the operation. Summer of Code paid more than 400 students of 49 countries to spend their summer helping open-source projects, 4500$ on completion. Now we just have to wait for the T-shirts..."

Comments

Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

Its a nice thing for Google to try to do, but who were they really targeting at that pay range? A decent summer internship in CS pays 2-4 times that much.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[eln]

People on scholarships. Do you have any idea how much weed you can buy for $4500?

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have any idea how shitty that weed is?

South America is flush with dirt weed.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Jussi K. Kojootti]

Did you consider that the internet, and this program, are accessible also from outside of your country?

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

9k to 18k for a summer *internship*? You're full of shit.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[TheRealMindChild]

And I thought $160 was too much to be paying for an ounce...

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[iambarry]

Who says that many of those who participated in summer of code didn't also have summer CS ineternships?

--Barry

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

For you canadians that is oregano

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Cornflake917]

Students who like deciding their own work hours
Students who want to get a full time job with Google
Students who are interested in the type of projects that Google has available

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

[Different poster] No, I made 15K USD from a summer internship as an undergrad programmer.

You just have to find the right job, I guess.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[jzeejunk]

but who were they really targeting at that pay range

our brethren in banglore? ;)

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[abscondment]

I'm doing a 6 month internship right now. I'll net $17,000. If it was only a summer thing, I'd be getting around $9,800. This is in addition to full benefits, and up to 7% of my pay matched when I purchase stock. Honestly, this isn't even with a tech company; they just pay IT interns really well.

So yes, 9k to 18k for a summer internship.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[king-manic]

And I thought $160 was too much to be paying for an ounce...

Quality BC weed costs about $40 for 1/8 ounce here in Alberta. Discounts for larger volume available.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[moo083]

If you have skills but no experience, this is a way to get something on your resume.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Widowwolf]

well to bad you cant spell

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[st1d]

Which is why it's so painful to graduate, and end up making $7/hr as a cashier at your local grocery store. :)

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't say that I've ever come across a summer internship paying more than $15K. And only a handful over $10K.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you enjoy working on the helldesk for the next 40 years. Those users aren't going to get any smarter y'know.

These guys have a *major* flag on their CV now. They have some solid open source coding experience. They can go out a choose a job now. But I wouldn't mind betting some of them won't take the best paid option. Some projects out there are just interesting to work on. Once you're off the breadline, there is more to a good job than cash. I work for a university. I don't get the best pay, but I *love* my job. I frequently work weekends and long evening, because I want to. Becuase I'm paid to think about interesting questions and build neat things. I hope some of the google coders get the same chance.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

haha, yu to!

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[mattwarden]

First: It really wasn't about the pay. The pay was damn nice, but it wasn't about that.

Secondly: I and many others also had part time jobs/internships.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Victor Antolini]

Well, no, because it isn't shitty for me and the rest. Many people from the USA that came here on vacation (i can easily count 20) were delighted with it's quality. You just need to know where to get it. Compared with many samples from the US, i'd stick with our's :P.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Mistshadow2k4]

It's a helluva lot more than I usually get. I'm most often paid with beer. "Will Hack for Beer", that's me.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought they filtered people with no experience in the application process . . .

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

I long for the day when stoners aren't considered cute or funny anymore.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[mentus]

Definetely. 4500 USDs is a HUGE amount of money in many countries. In Brazil an undergrand student would need to save 100% of his scholarsip during almost *3* years to gather that much money.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Aenema]

Did you think this might be a U.S. based company?

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Breakfast Pants]

If you work as a research assistant for a prof. under a grant you can make as low as $7 - 9 an hour. It is certainly enough to live on if you are getting that for 40 hours a week and it comes out to about what Google paid. Bitching about it like this is pathetic; of course a private sector internship hacking on databases is going to pay more than a job doing what you love. Tell me the internship numbers in the gaming industry if you want a better comparison. They are either unpaid or are just as low. If you are a student working your way through school without assistance you might be better off getting an internship in the general business sector. Otherwise, $4500 will definitely pay a summer's rent and food costs.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Breakfast Pants]

It was one of the requirements that they didn't. Still $4500 is more than you will get under many government grants working for the summer. Considering that most open source internships before this paid "$0" (you don't typically get paid for fiddling around on some code in your apartment all summer) $4500 is not anything to laugh off.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[chucks86]

You need to lay off a bit; first you tell us that you are a heavy smoker, and then you say you aren't. Pot certainly does have an effect on your short-term memory.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

All of the internships I considered last summer paid $5-6000 per month. The one I settled on paid just under $6000/month, plus health and travel expenses. (For what it's worth, I'm a grad student; the undergrads there were paid well, but not nearly as well as the grad students.)

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to stay with friends in MTRL. We smoked a lot of friggin' weed. Our dude has realy good stuff AND would come to your house and deliver it. It was ONLY ~30CDN. Nice and green.....ohhh.....anyway, for 4500 you can get 2 pounds of pretty good bud, espically since it's just after harvest and finishing drying time in the states......have I said too much?

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[BigBuckHunter]

At the risk of adding too much info...

That $40Cn eighth is $60Us down here in Seattle. Being from the east cost, I can tell you that BC weed is "the best mother-f'ing shit" I have ever experienced. It only takes a pinner to get the highest that I've EVER been (except for that night in NYC where I thought I was interviewing David Bowie, but it turned out to be a walnut tree that "looked" like David Bowie).... Yeah.

BBH

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Anonymous Coward]

Woooah!

Taking into account that US taxes gets 30% of the fee... and just think EURO and USD are quite equal, so IT'S poor pay.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[chthonicdaemon]

Here in South Africa, the going rate is about ZAR 5 for a 'bankie', (about an ounce). If you buy bulk it's less, but 4500 $ * (6.6 ZAR / $) * (1 ounce / 5 ZAR) gives about 168 kilos (370 pounds). That's a LOT of weed. Guess it helps to be close to the point of production.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[king-manic]

At the risk of adding too much info...

That $40Cn eighth is $60Us down here in Seattle. Being from the east cost, I can tell you that BC weed is "the best mother-f'ing shit" I have ever experienced. It only takes a pinner to get the highest that I've EVER been (except for that night in NYC where I thought I was interviewing David Bowie, but it turned out to be a walnut tree that "looked" like David Bowie).... Yeah.

BBH

I can tell you, I've had it for as little as $10CND/eigth for as little as buying 1 ounce($80). But I know growers so I guess it's not retail. If yoru a stoner, Canada is the place for you.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[iambarry]

I didn't see any requirement that work on summer of code needs to be exclusive. I looked through google's summer of code faq ( http://code.google.com/summfaq.html ).

Was that requirement posted online? Do you have a URL?

--Barry

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Kevin Stevens]

I really disagree. That is about a $10/hr rate. At the peak of the .com boom I made $14/hr as an intern. There are also many internships done through schools that pay nada. Zero. If you are lucky, you get 3 credits. The money alone may not attract the best of the best, but having google and open source work on your resume will. Even when I was in college (during the .com boom) pay was really a small factor in deciding an internship. It was all about experience and the likelihood of getting hired full time afterwards at a quality company.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[Breakfast Pants]

Facts? You want me to produce facts to backup bad claims?

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[WaterBreath]

Why the heck would that matter?

Summer of Code paid more than 400 students of 49 countries... $4500 [each].

AFAIK, the deal was $4500 for accepted work, without condition on where the person was located. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

There are many nations where 4500 USD is lot of money. In fact, even for a college student in the US, $4500 is often a lot of money. Except maybe if you live somewhere with a high cost of living, like Chicago, New York, etc. Where I live (which is in the US), $4500 is a year's tuition at the local public university. It's also 9 months of rent for my comfortable, two-bedroom apartment.

Re:Nice idea, poor pay

[WaterBreath]

It would be pertinent to consider where you live. If you live in urban Chicago, I'm less than impressed. If you live somewhere with lower costs of living, (such as, say La Crosse, WI) you'll have a hard time finding a position that pays that well. And, most places outside the US (there were participants from 48 other countries) have lower costs of living than most places within it.

Recognition

[totallygeek]

How are these programmers immortalized? I mean, beyond placing that on a resume. Does Google use this as a sort of co-op system for hiring future talent?

Re:Recognition

[tygerstripes]

Didn't you RTFA? They give a free Google T-shirt to whoever won the "design a festive Google-logo" painting competition.

Re:Recognition

[k98sven]

How are these programmers immortalized?

Well, obviously Google will now be paying teachers to have future generations of school children memorize and recite by heart the complete list of contributing programmers!

We cannot allow the names of these brave souls who laboured so hard for several months to be lost in the sands of time. Their memory shall be passed on from generation to generation for time immortal.

Re:Recognition

[Anonymous Coward]

All SoC participants have been stored somewhere, and if we want to apply one day for a job there, we can mention our experience with the summer of code, which will be cross-checked and fortunately help us to get a job at Google, so there is recognition besides the payment

Re:Recognition

[Anonymous Coward]

lame.

No VB?

[Anonymous Coward]

They didn't accept my VB entry?!

Re:No VB?

[tomhudson]

They didn't accept my VB entry?!

You should have done like the winners did - use google to cheat.

VB means you must have cheated using MSN Search, not Google Search! You might as well have told them you're going dressed up as Steve Balmer for Hallowe'en (don't forget the chair :-)

Re:No VB?

[ces]

Developers! Developers! Developers!

So I wonder if there is someone working in Redmond who's job it is to make sure Balmer takes his meds?

How about a winter of code?

[Anonymous Coward]

That was sucessful. Lets follow it up with a winter of code, and give the OSS world a christmas present

Re:How about a winter of code?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Australia it was winter :D

Re:How about a winter of code?

[generic-man]

Christmas is not good enough. You need something with broad appeal across the Open Source community, like Life Day .

Re:How about a winter of code?

[i_should_be_working]

No, no, no.

"Winter of" can only be followed by obviously bad things:

Discontent

Darkness

Slack (we had one of those when our advisor went on sabbatical. It wasn't bad then but since I still haven't graduated I regret it now)

etc

Re:How about a winter of code?

[a-singularity]

The director of open source programs at Google, Chris DiBona, posted this to the SummerofCodeAcceptedNH list in response to the idea of a WoC: Nope. We decided that it wouldn't be as effective an exercise. Chris On 10/23/05, --------- wrote: >> >> Hi -----, >> >> Is there some prospect of Google hosting "Winter of Code"? >> >> Any views on this? >> >> ------.

Re:How about a winter of code?

[joebutton]

> "Winter of" can only be followed by obviously bad things

Seen in the window of a British camping shop during the winter sales:

"Now is the winter of our discount tent"

Sir! Sir!

[tygerstripes]

Is 400 bigger than a Google?

dollars

[termos]

$4500. No problem.

Good idea!

[Mysticalfruit]

Get the next iteration of programmers comfortable with their tools and API's.

I'm suspecting the future is going to smell like AJAX...

Also, while barely literate, I'm pretty sure that dollar sign goes before the ammount...

Re:Good idea!

[Bubble666]

Heh, and I would add, nice way for google to implement and test a huge load of API's

Re:Good idea!

[tomhudson]

... depends on what part of the world you're in ...

Also, when is the last time you SAID "dollars forty-five hundred"? Of course, if you're going around as Yoda on Hallowe'en, "dollars forty-five hundred" might just be the way you'd speak ...

Re:Good idea!

[Pneuma ROCKS]

Also, while barely literate, I'm pretty sure that dollar sign goes before the ammount...

Barely literate sounds just about right, Mr. Nazi.

Re:Good idea!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm suspecting the future is going to smell like AJAX...

Indeed. My first thought, "Holy AJAX Hell, Batman!"

I dig AJAX goodness as much as the next guy, but that list of projects got boring REAL fast.

Re:Good idea!

[vinlud]

I'm suspecting the future is going to smell like AJAX...

That sounds not not too bad!

So much publicity and all you win is...

[TarrySingh]

4500$!...geez!

Other Results:

[Quaoar]

Percentage of summer of code participants getting laid: 0%

Re:Other Results:

[Anonymous Coward]

i'm not the parent, but lighten up people!

Re:Other Results:

[Anonymous Coward]

and you never will be with that attitude! HOYOOOOOOO

Re:Other Results:

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, I might be in that 0%. Does cyber-sex count?

Re:Other Results:

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I know for a fact that one of the participants's wife is now 4 months pregnant. Perhaps you are just projecting your own inadequacies.

Re:Other Results:

[Sj0]

As they say; you've got your worker bees and you've got your drones. Sure, one doesn't get to sit around hunting poon all day long, but god help all the drones if the honey runs out.

Re:Other Results:

[Anonymous Coward]

Summer of codin', had me a blast!
Summer of codin', happened so fast!
Wrote some code, cute as can be!
Wrote some code, with Google's mon-ey!

Summer days, driftin' away, into uh-oh, those codin' nights

(My god, this is what happens when there are open bottles of wine left at work. Typing is a challenge)

Re:Other Results:

[Anonymous Coward]

This joke is older than gopher.

return -ENOTFUNNY;

Re:Other Results:

[JonToycrafter]

> Percentage of summer of code participants getting laid: 0%

Well, now we all know what us non-programmers can do to help out the F/OSS movement!

Re:Other Results:

[Anonymous Coward]

Who moderated this troll? It's true.
I didn't get laid. Actually, I never have.

Interesting Demographics

[mikesmind]

I scanned through the list and am intrigued by the demographics. I was surprised that there weren't a few more women. I always knew that programming was dominated by men, but I didn't realize it would be that far skewed. The shop I work in is primarily COBOL and we have a good percentage of women working here. Perhaps that skewed my perception.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[eln]

Have you ever been involved in a CS or Computer Engineering program at a University? It varies, of course, but when I went to school for Computer Engineering in 1995, there was ONE woman in the entire department. From hanging out in the CS building, it seemed like they were easily 95% men too.

There has been a lot of effort recently to try and get more girls interested in math and science in the pre-college years, but there has only been limited success. There remains a tremendous disparity in the number of women versus the number of men in high tech occupations.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[university chica]

I'm a senior in computer science at a university that has a total of 17000 students. I'm also the only female student in my graduating class. Conservatively, I'd say there are maybe 7 other female students in CS who've made it to their junior year. CS loses 99% of female students, and it's half way through the semester, so we may have lost a couple more. For a little perspective... there are over 100 guys in their junior or senior year. I don't understand it. I mean, who wouldn't want to spend their entire scholastic career surrounded by a collection of the geekiest men the university has to offer?

Re:Interesting Demographics

[mikesmind]

I met my wife in a PL/1 class! I went to college in the mid-80's and it seems to me that there were a good number of women in comp-sci back then.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[dptalia]

Hey! Didn't I read somewhere that geeks are now the new sex symbol?

That's why my husband quit his lucrative computer job and is getting his PhD in Psychology!

Re:Interesting Demographics

[HawkingMattress]

The shop I work in is primarily COBOL and we have a good percentage of women working here. Perhaps that skewed my perception.

Dude that's simply because COBOL is a gay language. Women like to talk to it as it seems to understand them.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[Kaylya]

I'm currently in a computer science program in Canada; maybe 1 in 10 are females. Of those females, most are here on a student visa (mainly from China). I'm the only Canadian female in my year (4th) and actually can't think of a single Canadian female in years below me, although there were 2 who graduated last year.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[Cornflake917]

There is not a single female in my senior CS classes at Texas Tech. It sucks!

Re:Interesting Demographics

[Elwood P Dowd]

I will continue to quote my CS professor Max "Mad Max" Mintz until he is no longer relevant:

Some people say that the girls don't like computer science, but I don't think that's true. I think girls don't like the boys in computer science.

I think that'll be forever. The guy sitting in front of me in the lecture immediately responded, "Hey! I resemble that remark!"

Re:Interesting Demographics

[publius_ovidius]

I used to be a COBOL programmer and the men on my team were outnumbered by the women. Since I've switched over to newer technologies, women are nowhere to be found.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[malsdavis]

Thankfully, here in Britian the numbers are a slight bit better.

Still only about 1/5 - 1/4 females on most university courses (according to UCAS, the university (or is it college in America, not sure) admissions people), intereastingly, the percentage of woman seems to generally increase the better the university.

As a guy, I feel sorry for anyone studying on a 99% male course, it must be bad for both guys and girls being in such a totally male-dominated enviroment (not to mention just a bit stinky).

Maybe if they got more woman doing Computer Science (in particular open source projects) then things like Linux and Pearl wouldn't be so insanely and unnecessarily over-cryptic.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[Breakfast Pants]

You read "somewhere"? Why don't you be honest and say you read it on the internet. You know, I overheard at a local McDonald's the other day that their employees are looked upon by the women of our society as sexual gods. Granted I heard it from a McDonald's employee.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe if they got more woman doing Computer Science (in particular open source projects) then things like Linux and Pearl wouldn't be so insanely and unnecessarily over-cryptic.

Are you kidding me???

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Re:Interesting Demographics

[Anonymous Coward]

As a male in computer science, I will firstly say that I don't expect to meet women in my CS curriculum, but rather outside of class. There seem to be quite a few female TA's, which is kind of weird. Anyways I imagine this would be a few reasons why women aren't interested in CS:

It is a blend of math and science, neither of which are popular amongst women
The jokes in class are fairly nerdy, and often involve stupid internet jokes that can only be understood after reading a lot of forums
It doesn't seem like a safe job market
There aren't many women pioneers in CS (I cant even name any, which is pretty sad)
Many curriculums aren't sure whether they want to teach IT or CS, and the seriousness of the courses and major may disappoint the truly interested
Lastly, I find most women didn't play with legos or conceptualize ideas they had when they were young. This is something which is essential to CS and engineering. Oddly, engineering programs have more women. Blame society on that one.

If you want the hotties, take an entry level psychology class

Re:Interesting Demographics

[Fancia]

It is a blend of math and science, neither of which are popular amongst women

Actually, both of those *are* popular among women, which is why there has often been some surprise about the number of women in CS. (I put it to the still extant sexist and exclusionary attitude I've noticed in computer geeks - by no meals all or necessarily even most, but enough to make women feel unwelcome or out of place.)

There aren't many women pioneers in CS (I cant even name any, which is pretty sad)

Ada Lovelace, for one, although societal attitudes to women's education did prevent, as you say, there from being a large number in the early pioneers of computers.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[Anonymous Coward]

>> There aren't many women pioneers in CS (I cant even name any, which is pretty sad)

> Ada Lovelace, for one, although societal attitudes to women's education did prevent, as you say, there from being a large number in the early pioneers of computers.


  Don't forget Rear Admiral Dr. Grace Hopper!

http://www.sdsc.edu/ScienceWomen/hopper.html

Re:Interesting Demographics

[waamaral]

They are, except they must have the wealth of Tiger Woods to be...

Re:Interesting Demographics

[dptalia]

Actually, I think it was one of those silly woman's magazines... I saw the little teaser on the cover and had to check it out. Of course, it's true to a certain extent - ask anyone who's gone to Boston University as an undergrad. A high percentage of the grls who go there go because it's across the street from MIT.

While the whole dot com thing was going on geeks became sexy because they had oodle of money and not enough sense to know how to spend it properly. Which is why all of us are still working. Sigh.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[drew]

One of the female programmers I used to work with once said:
"Sometimes I think I work with all of the people who spent their grade school years getting beat up by everyone else."

Re:Interesting Demographics

[Elwood P Dowd]

Most of the first computers *were* women. Many of the first programmers were women. There was a war on. So there were definitely large numbers of women in the field.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[808140]

I second your comment about math, at least. I was a math major in college. I think a lot of the geeks here think that women aren't all that into math because they remember taking math and in those classes women were a minority. This is because most of our readers were not actually math majors, and undergraduate math classes -- especially calculus and the like -- have a lot of non-math majors (specifically, CS and physics majors, where women have classically been underrepresented). Once you hit upper division, though, and those slackers cut out, the number of women jumps to around 60% in my case.

Roughly half the faculty (pretty evenly split) was female, and a number of them were specialists in their fields -- my graduate abstract algebra course was taught by a very, very competent german woman, for example. In my topology class senior year, 20 students showed up on day one and on the day of the final there were only 6 -- and 4 of them were girls. These are not "easy" subjects selected by people who are unable to cope with abstraction.

I've always been completely confused by people here that prattle on about how women don't like math and science as if its somehow accepted fact.

Of course, and I'm sure someone will be upset about this, but one of the reasons I couldn't cope with CS majors is because of the sort of socially inept dweebs the discipline seems to attract. It's always seemed to me that this is the deterent for most people, including women.

Society is certainly much less forgiving of women who cannot perform adequately socially. Perhaps this has something to do with it. But I'm not a sociologist, so I won't pretend to know.

Just wanted to support you on the math assertion with some anecdotal evidence (for what it's worth).

Re:Interesting Demographics

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to say that I had enclosed that comment in generalization brackets, but apparently it got stripped from the message.

Regardless, I'm not saying that women don't like math or science, but based on my experiences I find there to be a larger quantity of women in classes outside math and science classes. There are simply fewer students in math and science. What I was trying to say, which admittedly was worded poorly, was that because there are fewer students to draw from the "math and science" crowd, and there is little reason for women to chose CS over say chemical engineering. I'll put it bluntly: CS is slack. The classes don't emphasize the artistic aspect of creation, or show the nitty gritty details like how some methods will be slower because of cache misses. Hell, they don't even offer a SIMD/ distributed computing undergraduate course at my university. CS is the red-headed step child of many science departments, hastily created to fill an increased demand.

Re:Interesting Demographics

[university chica]

CS is the red-headed step child of the engineering department at my university. They really do call us the "bastard engineers".

Man look at the names

[Anonymous Crowhead]

It's like a "Who's Who" list of who's not American.

Re:Man look at the names

[MemoryDragon]

Well it was called summer of code, not summer of greed or lawsuits ;-) american students were all too busy becoming laywers or business crooks.

Re:Man look at the names

[Anonymous Coward]

There are non-european descent names there.. when did that mean that european descent == american?

Re:Man look at the names

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm.. that's some talent you have -- I didn't know it was possible to look at a name and claim it's not "American."

Re:Man look at the names

[johansalk]

What's an American name?

Re:Man look at the names

[Anonymous Coward]

Dan Eagleflash.

Re:Man look at the names

[Suhas]

butch

Re:Man look at the names

[Anonymous Coward]

Anonymous Crowhead?

Re:Man look at the names

[MrResistor]

Well, you know, it's those names that are exclusive to the region commonly refered to as "America."

First you have the traditional ones like Geronimo, Ishi, and Sacajawea. Then there are the more modern ones, like Shawnequa, Loquanda, and Aquaneta.

Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[Work Account]

$4500 for a summer of work ->

Summer = 12 weeks

1 work week = 40 hours

Total = 480 hours per summer

BEFORE taxes, this is $9.30 / hour.

I can make more at McDonald's especially considering meals are discounted 75%.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[mrpotato]

You just had to complete a project during the summer. It doesn't mean you've worked 40 hours on it. You simply had to meet the deliverable. Some people got paid considerably more than 9.30$/hour, and have a much better experience to put on their CV than "flipped burgers for 4 months".

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[kertong]

Your logic is flawed.

Where else can you earn $9.30/hour for contributing to an open source project? And who benefits from it? Why should google pay them more than $9.30 an hour when there are no other offers on the table?

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[schon]

I can make more at McDonald's

Wow, McDonalds is hiring coders?

especially considering meals are discounted 75%.

Yeah, but the downside is that it's McDonalds "food".

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[ameoba]

How many McDonald's workers get to work on a project of their chosing, on the hours of their choice, having control of how they do it and not having a high-strung highschool dropout bitching about drive-through time averages being 5s over the target time?

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[Anonymous Coward]

Meeting the deliverable could take considerably longer than 40hrs/wk.

/Wasn't a SoC participant
//Was a google engineering intern
///came into work on the weekends.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[Cruciform]

That's 5 times what a farmer makes playing WoW.
For someone with the necessary skills outside North America that would be a decent amount of money. Plus, this is something that a person could use to supplement an existing job by working on it in their off hours.

Not everyone needs to make 100k a year for SUV payments and cable.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, in San Antonio McDonalds pays you $6.25 and only discounts 50% up to $5.00

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[Beatbyte]

How much would you sacrifice to get experience, build your reputation, and have Google on your resume?

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[Myko]

I can make more at McDonald's especially considering meals are discounted 75%.

Maybe, but your future salary will climb at a higher incremental rate by having this thing the work force looks for called experience by working on coding...

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[HavokDevNull]

Your assuming everyone is from the USA or EU no?

India
GDP per capita $480
Unemployment rate 8.8%
Labor force 406 million
Population below the poverty line 25%
Typical salary for a programmer $8,000 year = $4.16 an hour

source http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/india_pr. html

If I lived and was a programmer in India Google would be a good choice considering only two months of work!!!!

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[pherthyl]

Bull. There was no requirement to work all summer long. I did about 3 weeks of full time work.

$4500/120 = $37.50/hour. I'd say I'm happy with that. The trick was to come up with an innovative idea that didn't require too much coding. Of course if your proposal was to write a MS Windows clone in COBOL then you've got other problems.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[LeonGeeste]

Yes, that is insightful. It would make sense to work for lower pay than usual to signal how good your work is and to get your name out.

Congratulations: you just explained why the minimum wage is a bad idea.

What if California enforced "living wage" laws against these coders? Yeah, that would make the world a much better place.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[Anonymous Coward]

I did this, and I didn't work 40 hours a week. I worked more like 20, and that was the expected number, so I got 18.60 by your numbers.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[mattwarden]

Where in Zeus's name did you get your 40 hours/week number from?

I would say I spent about 150 hours on my project. That puts me at around $30/hour before taxes.

There is no time requirement. You propose a project. If it gets accepted, you spend however long it takes to get it done. At your leisure. Whenever you want.

And I'd like fries with that, please.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[a-singularity]

This isn't really accurate. Most people didn't get started until late June or early July. The approvals weren't even given out until June 24th. After that, you had to contact and get in touch with your mentor to get some direction/traction with the project. So it's more on the order of 8 weeks. That makes $14/hr. Not to mention that the workload on the projects varied.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[SillyNickName4me]

You may not realize this, but a giving a grant to a project is not exactly the same as paying a wage.

While you are right that the grantparent is insightfull, your statement about whatever Californian laws is rubbish, no wage was payed here to begin with.

Seeing how over 12% of the population of the USA lives on or below the local poverty line, I think it is actually time to impose a minimum wage countrywide. If you believe it is better to have a substantial number of people working fulltime and yet still have to rely on 'donations' or subsidies to even get enough to feed themselves then fine, but don't think it strange when people call you short sighted because the indirect cost of no minimum wage is a lot higher for society as a whole (due to social support, increased criminality and such)

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[LeonGeeste]

Oh, except that the minimum wage means they don't get paid at all, not that they are paid more for the same jobs. Why not a minimum wage of $20/hour? $50/hour? $100/hour? If we can increase compensation for work just by passing a law, why be so miserly?

I'm just thankful no one in California's legislature has found out about Google's exploitative practices ... or that they did find out and realize how stupid it would be to prevent this exploitative practice.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[kbahey]

Your assumption compares a a 9 to 5 job 5 days a week (intern) with a part time/spare time, do it at your own pace, project kind of assignment.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[johansalk]

Why are you arguing against living wage? Do *you* want to work below living wage and someone is stopping you? Are *you* begging to have a job that pays less than living wage and someone is stopping you? I really doubt it. Why don't you mind your own business instead of moralising for others? People like you disgust me.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[LeonGeeste]

Do *you* want to work below living wage and someone is stopping you? Are *you* begging to have a job that pays less than living wage and someone is stopping you?

No, but many are, and someone is stopping them - whatever government passes such laws. I know, you don't really give a damn about them, but they exist.

Why are you arguing against living wage?

I'm against "living wage" laws because it means workers who aren't worth hiring at under that don't get paid at all, not that they are paid more for the same jobs. Why not a minimum wage of $20/hour? $50/hour? $100/hour? If we can increase compensation for work just by passing a law, why be so miserly?

Is it so hard to believe someone could oppose price floors on practical grounds, rather than because they hate poor people? Shocking, I know.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[SillyNickName4me]

Oh, except that the minimum wage means they don't get paid at all, not that they are paid more for the same jobs.

That is an assmption, which turns out to not be true in about any place on this planet that uses minimum wage. Argument ignored untill substantiated by proof.

Why not a minimum wage of $20/hour? $50/hour? $100/hour? If we can increase compensation for work just by passing a law, why be so miserly?

Because that has nothing to do with living wage or minimum wage anymore maybe? All you are doing for now however is telling yourself absurdities in order to discredit an idea that you do not even seem to understand to begin with.

I'm just thankful no one in California's legislature has found out about Google's exploitative practices ... or that they did find out and realize how stupid it would be to prevent this exploitative practice.

Ah ok, so you really od not understand it. Please shutup and learn to use your brains.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[SillyNickName4me]

I'm against "living wage" laws because it means workers who aren't worth hiring at under that don't get paid at all, not that they are paid more for the same jobs.

No, it means that if society wants a certain hob done, they have to pay enough for it so that someoone can reasonably do that job. If it is not worth it then the job won't be done. That does nowhere mean that the person who'd have taken that job does not get payed in another job however.

Why not a minimum wage of $20/hour? $50/hour? $100/hour? If we can increase compensation for work just by passing a law, why be so miserly?

In the style of that argument, why not solve the issue completely and reintroduce slavery? Makes sure that those jobs get done with the lowest direct cost to society...

Would it be possible for you to make an argument here without resorting to absurdities?

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[LeonGeeste]

you:That is an assmption, which turns out to not be true in about any place on this planet that uses minimum wage. Argument ignored untill substantiated by proof.

me:Why not a minimum wage of $20/hour? $50/hour? $100/hour? If we can increase compensation for work just by passing a law, why be so miserly?

you:Because that has nothing to do with living wage or minimum wage anymore maybe? All you are doing for now however is telling yourself absurdities in order to discredit an idea that you do not even seem to understand to begin with.

You tell me the minimum wage always works and don't even consider what would happen if you made the minimum wage arbitrarily high? You think employers will keep hiring no matter how much they are made to pay? You think no one revises down hiring plans in the face of laws telling them they must pay more? No one says "hm... locate here, where they will arbitrarily make me give raises at random times... or there, where they won't... *think think*" If you want a good, you'll always buy it, regardless of any price floor placed on it?

Yes, that's what you have to believe to support the notion that it's effects are as minimal as you claim. But since I missed it, explain precisely why a $100/hour minimum wage would not raise every current worker's wage to $100/hour. Then explain why that argument does not apply to the minimum wage law you do advocate.

Guess what: "feeling good" about a policy doesn't mean it accomplishes anything. It can make intellectually lazy people more dangerous.

Ah ok, so you really od not understand it. Please shutup and learn to use your brains.

A weakness is revealed.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[LeonGeeste]

No, it means that if society wants a certain hob done, they have to pay enough for it so that someoone can reasonably do that job. If it is not worth it then the job won't be done. That does nowhere mean that the person who'd have taken that job does not get payed in another job however.

They already do pay enough so that someone can reasonably do the job: it's called the market wage. If it's not worth that much to them, the job doesn't get done. If you prohibit such exchanges (i.e., your position), you eliminate that opportunity, meaning the person has to go find another opportunity. But since that was his best option (else why would you have to prohibit the exchange), he has to take an even worse option, i.e., a lower wage. If there were better wages out there, he would have already taken them.

In the style of that argument, why not solve the issue completely and reintroduce slavery? Makes sure that those jobs get done with the lowest direct cost to society...

The opposite would mean no minimum wage, not implementing slavery. It would result in such bastions of poverty as min-wage-free Hong Kong (you know, the place workers flock to to be oppressed or something). You know why you get paid what you do? Because of competition for labor, not because your employer likes you or because the laws says he has to. You know why it's hard to find a job? Because employers have to hire you without getting a chance to see if you're a good fit, so they only hire "sure things". Really. Otherwise, why the fuck would they care if you've gone to college if you know the skill?

Would it be possible for you to make an argument here without resorting to absurdities?

Reduction to absurdity is a valid rhetorical technique. If I can show your position implies something you disagree with, I have refuted it.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[SillyNickName4me]

They already do pay enough so that someone can reasonably do the job: it's called the market wage. If it's not worth that much to them, the job doesn't get done. If you prohibit such exchanges (i.e., your position), you eliminate that opportunity, meaning the person has to go find another opportunity. But since that was his best option (else why would you have to prohibit the exchange), he has to take an even worse option, i.e., a lower wage. If there were better wages out there, he would have already taken them.

No, if you prohibit this then you enforce that things you cannot afford doing keep being done.
'Addord' in this is not just a matter of having the direct financial means, but also of longer term cost and benefit to society.

If you believe that having to depend on food stamps while working 40+ hours/week is reasonable then you and I have a compketely different definition of reasonable.

The opposite would mean no minimum wage, not implementing slavery.

THe opposite of having a minimum wage is not having one obviously. The opposite of your 'why not pay them $50/hour, why not $100/hour' absurdity is taking no minimum wage to the extreme and implementing slavery. (not to mention that many people consider working while not even gettign payed enough to live from slavery)

It would result in such bastions of poverty as min-wage-free Hong Kong (you know, the place workers flock to to be oppressed or something).

People go there because they have better chances then anywhere near that place, not because the places around it have a minimum wage. Completely irrelevant argument.

You know why you get paid what you do? Because of competition for labor, not because your employer likes you or because the laws says he has to. You know why it's hard to find a job? Because employers have to hire you without getting a chance to see if you're a good fit, so they only hire "sure things". Really. Otherwise, why the fuck would they care if you've gone to college if you know the skill?

Well, where to start..

I did not finish college, yet I worked for IBM for 12 years, have been working for a development firm during the dot-com era till they went down, and have been running a business for myself since. It was not that hard at all for me. For others it is, why? because they lack the skills.

Now, go back to your nice theoretical world of paper assurances (like certificates, diplomas etc). Those who are succesfull in the real world care about result however and not about theoretical certification.

For the rest, havign worked for a 'little while', I know why people want or do not want to hire me. Pay has virtually nothing to do with it.

Reduction to absurdity is a valid rhetorical technique. If I can show your position implies something you disagree with, I have refuted it.

If you have to go into absurdity to get anywhere near a consequence I might eventually disagree with, then you have shown that you opposing it is exactly that, absurd.

Yes, it is a valid technique, but not in the way you are using it, and it is a technique that is pretty much regarded as a sign of not having a real argument.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[johansalk]

Oh, and you give a damn about them so much that you want to see them work below living wage! Shut the fuck up, you don't give a fuck about the poor.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[Breakfast Pants]

Boo hoo, most philanthropic internships are unpaid you whiney little shit.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[SillyNickName4me]

You tell me the minimum wage always works and don't even consider what would happen if you made the minimum wage arbitrarily high?

If you make it arbitrary high then it won't work, but the only one arguing to make it arbitrary high is you. FOr as far as I am concerned it should provide enough to live above the poverty line and a little bit, but no more. the word MINIMUM sortof implies that, it is not just the lowest wage that can be payed legally, it is also the minimym a person would need to live. Now, every minimum wage system that I ever encountered more or less follows that idea.

So, it just seems to me that you don't really know what minimum wage means.

Yes, that's what you have to believe to support the notion that it's effects are as minimal as you claim. But since I missed it, explain precisely why a $100/hour minimum wage would not raise every current worker's wage to $100/hour. Then explain why that argument does not apply to the minimum wage law you do advocate.

I never said the effects were minimal, just that they were not bad or destructive.

Since your idea of what minimum wage means has nothing to do with how minimum wage gets implemented by those who have it, you are also not having a very good picture of the consequences. Yes, it means that everyone will at least get amount of money/hur for their work. I never implied it did not do that. I also never implied, what is more, even agreed that it will make some jobs unaffordable. WHat that accomplishes is that society stops doing things it cannot afford and looks for something else to do instead. So no, it does not mean everyone is goign to ge at a min $100 or whatever absurd number you have in your mind, but it does mean that work gets done only when pay is enough to live from. If society needs the work to be done then that will be no problem.

Guess what: "feeling good" about a policy doesn't mean it accomplishes anything. It can make intellectually lazy people more dangerous.

If you would just bother to look at some places around the world that actually have a minimum wage you'd see that it accomplishes something. But, don't take my word on it, go look for yourself in places where they have a minimum wage, go talk to the people, go study the economies if you like, but be sure to pick a few places so you actually end up with a somewhat balanced idea instead of annecdotal evidence.

A weakness is revealed.

Uh?

It could not be that:
1. your argument is idiotic becuase Google did not pay any wages and living wage laws in California simply have nothing to say about this whole thing whatsoever.
2. you have no clue whatsoever about what minimum wage means.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[Anonymous Coward]

Where else can you earn $9.30/hour for contributing to an open source project?

Red Hat. IBM. CodeSourcery. WindRiver. Apple. NASA. NSA. LLNL. LANL. A few dozen universities. That's just a few.

I make *much* more than $9.30/hr working almost exclusively on open-source projects.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[be-fan]

Please read a basic economics text. They spell out quite clearly why minimum wages hurt everyone involved.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[Anonymous Coward]

so go fucking work at mcdonalds.

this was an opportunity for a lot of people to contribute to free software projects that interested them. and to have fun. and get paid for doing it. holy shit, if i have to read another post complaining about how little money this is, i may lost my mind. obviously there were plenty of people across the globe that didn't think they were better off flipping burgers at the local arches.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[LeonGeeste]

No, if you prohibit this then you enforce that things you cannot afford doing keep being done.
'Addord' in this is not just a matter of having the direct financial means, but also of longer term cost and benefit to society.

Do you understand what a minimum wage law says? It prohibits an exchange. It does not say "you must hire this person, and at this wage". It says, "IF you hire this person, it must be for this wage". Understand the difference? See why it makes people not worth hiring?

If you believe that having to depend on food stamps while working 40+ hours/week is reasonable then you and I have a compketely different definition of reasonable.

If the minimum wage law actually relieved that situation, that comment would be relevant.

THe opposite of having a minimum wage is not having one obviously. The opposite of your 'why not pay them $50/hour, why not $100/hour' absurdity is taking no minimum wage to the extreme and implementing slavery. (not to mention that many people consider working while not even gettign payed enough to live from slavery)

Is the opposite of a minimum wage slavery or is it no minimum wage? Ignoring your rank appeal to emotion, do you have any idea why I keep bringing up the $100/hour? See the comment below about reduction to absurdity.

People go there because they have better chances then anywhere near that place, not because the places around it have a minimum wage. Completely irrelevant argument.

It's "irrelevant" because you don't see the cause and effect. Hong Kong has "better chances than anywhere near that place" because of it's free, dynamic economy, in which you don't have to worry that you'll be forced to give someone a raise some day if you contract for their labor. But more importantly, it puts paid your notion that the nation would totally descend into poverty if there were no minimum wage laws, so even in that respect it's relevant. Please, wake up.

Now, go back to your nice theoretical world of paper assurances (like certificates, diplomas etc). Those who are succesfull in the real world care about result however and not about theoretical certification.

What the fuck are you talking about? I come in arguing about how irrelevant the diplomas are, and how they're only used to vet employees for risk, since whoever you hire you're stuck with (and, thanks to you, have to give arbitrary raises to), and you're accusing me of living in a "theoretical world of paper assurances"??? Get a fucking clue! YES, employers care about bullshit certifications. You know why? You want to know where you can find the solution to this mystery? It's called a "mirror". YOU are the reason. You're the person demanding more benefits be lobbed onto every employement contract: arbitrary raises, impossibility of firing, impossibility of wage cuts, required benefits, possibility of getting sued on flimsy "discrimination" grounds for millions, prohibiting employers from saying "nice dress", etc etc etc ad nauseum ad infinitum.

Wouldn't it be great if every contract had all that shit? Wouldn't it be fuckin' paradise?

Oops, small problem: the more of that stuff you require, the more dangerous any employee is. So you see someone with no acquired skills but claims he's a fast learner. Aw, give the fucker a chance. Oops, turns out to be totally useless. Time to turn him over to someone who might be able to actually use him. Wait...you mean you can't fire him? That would be "discrimination"? Aw, fuck. Now you get taken to the cleaners for millions... all because you believed someone who said he was a fast learner.

Anticipating legal bullshit like that employers don't hire anyone unless they can show loads of documentation that they're not a fuckup: background checks, SSN, bullshit diploma irrelevant to the job, references, and, yep, everyone's favorite: having "connections". Take a chance on someone? Fuck that. "Sor

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[SillyNickName4me]

Do you understand what a minimum wage law says? It prohibits an exchange. It does not say "you must hire this person, and at this wage". It says, "IF you hire this person, it must be for this wage". Understand the difference? See why it makes people not worth hiring?

I understand what it says, I also understand I am living in a country that has minimum wage laws. You are correct in what suhc a law says, even correct that in specific cases it makes it not worth hiring people for certain jobs, all that means is that those jobs are obviously not important enough to you, no big problem there. Ah, for the person who does lack a job now, yes, that is too bad, and a good incentive to go do something else.

What does happen is that indeed things that people do not want to pay the minimum price for don't get done. That noweher implies that the people who could have done such jobs are without a job now however. You try to imply that connection, about any place that actually has such a system shows that you are mistaken.

If the minimum wage law actually relieved that situation, that comment would be relevant.

Which minimum wage law are you talking about anyway. WHere I live it does that perfectly well. You don't seem to get it into your head that the minimum wage in almost all versions is directly linked (but not the same) to the cost of living?

It's "irrelevant" because you don't see the cause and effect. Hong Kong has "better chances than anywhere near that place" because of it's free, dynamic economy, in which you don't have to worry that you'll be forced to give someone a raise some day if you contract for their labor. But more importantly, it puts paid your notion that the nation would totally descend into poverty if there were no minimum wage laws, so even in that respect it's relevant. Please, wake up.

Have you ever been there? I have, actually, I worked there.

Have you seen how the average person lives there? You believe that there is not a very substantial amount of poverty there? Heh, go look there, or even better, work and live there.

Ah, but that's the kicker, isn't it: you have to show why your position doesn't generalize to higher minimum wages (and I saw in your other post about the minimum wage being defined as "the minimum a person needs to live"... sorry, learn English. It's a legal price floor on the price of labor. It can be above or below whatever you consider subsistence).

You obviously have not ever looked at the many places on this planet that happen to have a 'minimum wage' and how most are implemented. You came up with a very nice definition, but that is one that is 1. ignoring the purpose of minimum wage, and 2. not how it got implemented anywhere where it has been succesfull.

One more thing, your arbitrary raises argument might apply to a minimum wage worker indeed, but you are being ridiculous when believign this applies to everyone.

About the rest of your post.. well, you are right, I did not properly read that you in fact think diplomas etc are BS as well, but the rest of your rant about why they are needed is a bit off. You are bringing in lots of other things (mandatory pay raise, impossibility to fire people etc etc) which are completely unrelated to at least PAYING SOMEONE ENOUGH TO LIVE FROM. Many such things do not exist in the USA, and yet the demand for diplomas and certifications there is a lot bigger then where I live (where we do in fact have many of the things you mentioned). Two anecdotes maybe, but they do suggest that even if it were relevant, your argument might not hold.

Now, let me repeat what this is about:

AT LEAST PAY SOMEONE ENOUGH TO LIVE FROM

The argument is that requiring that by law is a good idea.

Now, what again was your problem with that? Something that is actually related to such a suggestion? Or do you just have an opinion that simply has no relation whatsoever to reality in any place where such a law has been impklemented?

You seem

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[LeonGeeste]

Okay, let me see if I can put this in terms you understand. I'm trying to establish that the minimum wage (i.e., legal price floor on per-unit-time price of labor) does not accomplish the goals you have outlined. I have explained a simple reason why: if a law can increase the real compensation of a worker, why stop at $10/hour? Why not $100/hour? You declined to answer this at least three times. Until you answer this, your argument in favor a labor price floors is non-existent. If you propose policy X to accomplish Y, and policy X does not accomplish Y, your policy prescription is in error. It does not matter that there are "hidden costs" to poverty. If the minimum wage does not affect poverty, it doesn't quite do a whole hell of a lot for the "hidden costs of poverty", now, does it?

What I want you to do is, (like I asked you three times) explain why a $100/hour minimum wage would be a bad idea. Then explain why that exact argument does not apply to the minimum wage you advocate. If you can't do that, all your grandstanding about how, golly gee, shouldn't we have a law that makes employers PAY SOMEONE ENOUGH TO LIVE FROM is seen as irrelevant.

You claim the minimum wage is working "quite well" wherever it is that you happen to live. I dispute this. You see the workers get raises from increases in the minimum wage (er... at least until the employer rides out the employment contract and moves the jobs elsewhere). You do not see the jobs that never get offered in the first place like internships that would give "risky" workers a foot in the door and a chance to earn money. Like, the Google Summer of Code project that would not have happened if people like you were in the California legislature. "Hey! Pay a fair wage!" "That is a fair wage... the coders certainly like it." "No! You pay what we say you pay ... if you hire at all." "Okay, then we will do something else with the funds." "Yeah! That's right! Take that, Google! That's what you get for trying to give people jobs! Good riddance."

Now, regarding your other point about the "justification" of the minimum wage... is this really a road you want to go down? Did you know that the original OFFICIAL justification of the original minimum wage in America was keep industry from fleeing from the North to the South? Or what if I told you it was also originally justified on eugenics grounds. Don't believe me? Read this:

http://www.princeton.edu/~tleonard/papers/Womenswo rk.pdf

Progressives wanted to make women and other groups (you know, the blacks and disabled people you claim to care about) unemployable. Their chosen tool: the minimum wage.

Quoth the author Thomas Leonard: "...these progressives argued that minimum-wage-induced disemployment was a social benefit. Legal minimum wages and other statutory means of inducing undesirable groups to leave the labor force were, in the progressive view, a eugenic benefit."

And that's even setting aside the whole issue of whether the fact that a law "feels good" makes it a good idea. You seem to say yes, I say no.

Re:Google pays MCDONALD'S wages

[SillyNickName4me]

Okay, let me see if I can put this in terms you understand. I'm trying to establish that the minimum wage (i.e., legal price floor on per-unit-time price of labor) does not accomplish the goals you have outlined. I have explained a simple reason why: if a law can increase the real compensation of a worker, why stop at $10/hour? Why not $100/hour? You declined to answer this at least three times.

I answered it as many times by saying that you do not know how minimum wage works in practise, that while it is a legal price floor, that legal price floor is not entirely arbitrary, AND ONLY APPLIES TO THE MINIMUM.

So why stop there? because in all other cases it is no longer minimum wage (tho it may e in your definition, it is not for the rest of the world)

What I want you to do is, (like I asked you three times) explain why a $100/hour minimum wage would be a bad idea. Then explain why that exact argument does not apply to the minimum wage you advocate. If you can't do that, all your grandstanding about how, golly gee, shouldn't we have a law that makes employers PAY SOMEONE ENOUGH TO LIVE FROM is seen as irrelevant.

If you cannot understand why something can work when used with moderation while it won't work when taken into the extreme then that is your problem.

Just to show how much you know of what you are talking about:

You claim the minimum wage is working "quite well" wherever it is that you happen to live. I dispute this. You see the workers get raises from increases in the minimum wage (er... at least until the employer rides out the employment contract and moves the jobs elsewhere). You do not see the jobs that never get offered in the first place like internships that would give "risky" workers a foot in the door and a chance to earn money.

Internships here are not covered by minimum wage laws, so those internships exist and the risky people do get a foot in the door. An internship is actually how I landed my first job at IBM.

Like, the Google Summer of Code project that would not have happened if people like you were in the California legislature. "Hey! Pay a fair wage!" "That is a fair wage... the coders certainly like it." "No! You pay what we say you pay ... if you hire at all." "Okay, then we will do something else with the funds." "Yeah! That's right! Take that, Google! That's what you get for trying to give people jobs! Good riddance."

Grants like given by Google are not a wage, and hence are not covered by minimum wage laws. This is only the third time I point that out to you, and I am not the only one who pointed this out to you either.

So, again what you are arguing is not true and again it shows that you really have no fucking clue whatsoever what you are talking about.

Now, regarding your other point about the "justification" of the minimum wage... is this really a road you want to go down? Did you know that the original OFFICIAL justification of the original minimum wage in America was keep industry from fleeing from the North to the South? Or what if I told you it was also originally justified on eugenics grounds. Don't believe me? Read this:

http://www.princeton.edu/~tleonard/papers/Womenswo rk.pdf

Progressives wanted to make women and other groups (you know, the blacks and disabled people you claim to care about) unemployable. Their chosen tool: the minimum wage.

Ah yes, someone a long long time ago tried to use this for their own purposes. Now, maybe just maybe you might consider this to be an incident, an annecdote, and ,maybe you should look at the feew dozen countries around that have a minimum age, and just notice how on average they have much less poverty.

For the rest, stop making assumptions about my political preferences. I am not what you americans would call a liberal, and I have nothign whatseever to do with the democrat party other then just agreeing with a few specific ideas they also happen to agree with.

Hmmm, interesting projects

[totallygeek]

• Ivan Barrera A, Chile: Bandwidth Limiter For Apache - When a user starts downloading something, the data goes through the mod. If there is a bandwidth limit, then the mod will start "splitting" the data into smaller pieces. Then it will start sending each piece with a small delay (less than 1 sec) between each piece, thus, reducing the speed the user downloads. This is useful for small web-hosting servers with limited outbound bandwidth (i.e. ADSLs customers).

  I don't even have that limited of bandwidth and I would like to see this mod in production. Very needed code IMHO.

• csaba, Hungary - Fuse / BSD / Network mount via SSH

  This is what I have been waiting for since the dawn of time. Well, not that long, but I have always wondered when I would be able to mount remote file systems via secure shell.

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you want to mount filesystems through ssh? Try shfs.

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[harryk]

Secure Shell file system mount has been available as a module for some time. ssh_fs.o I think, or something, but it works sufficiently enough.

the project is here: http://shfs.sourceforge.net/

enjoy...
harryk

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[aliens]

That is the hottness. I never knew about it. Thank you!

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[tyler_larson]

I have always wondered when I would be able to mount remote file systems via secure shell.

You mean like this?

ssh host sudo mount //server/share /mnt/nfs

It seems simple enough...

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[hackstraw]

don't even have that limited of bandwidth and I would like to see this mod in production. Very needed code IMHO.

http://cband.linux.pl/
http://www.steve.org.uk/Software/mod_curb/
http://www.snert.com/Software/mod_throttle/ This one might be best, I've looked at it before.
http://www.topology.org/src/bwshare/README.html

Or you could just dupe an ask.slashdot.org by asking something like:

http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/07/18/02 31229&tid=4&tid=2

I'm really surprised this is not part of Apache by now.

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[david.given]

Bandwidth Limiter For Apache...

thttpd has had this since, well, forever. Since the binary is 70kB, has no dependencies, uses ludicrously small amounts of RAM, and scales far, far better than Apache, if you really need bandwidth limiting, there's nothing to stop you running this side-by-side with Apache!

(thttpd's big weakness is dynamic content, since it uses a forked model of implementing CGI scripts; Apache beats it hands down there. But when it comes to static content, there are very few servers that do it better than thttpd. Plus you've got to love a web server that allows you to legitimately spit at your boss, whenever you try to pronounce it.)

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[mindtriggerz]

The diffrence being, the SHFS project is a native kernel module, while the aformentioned is a FUSE (Filesystem in USErspace) based-program. The diffrence is that you need not be root to load/mount a SSHfs.

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[Breakfast Pants]

Beware of bandwidth limiters that work like that. When something like that is used on an upload pipe to prevent for instance ACKs from not getting through, it isn't always quite so easy. If you have a real fast connection and you set it to use half of your bandwidth, the "chunks" it splits the outgoing data into are going to be huge. What will in effect happen is it will max out your bandwidth for half a second every second (replace second with how often it is going off) and you will still miss ACKs.

Maybe it isn't coded exactly as you stated and it avoids this problem, but I'm just issuing caution. Dedicated packet shapers are much better suited for this purpose.

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[rodac]

-- # csaba, Hungary - Fuse / BSD / Network mount via SSH This is what I have been waiting for since the dawn of time. Well, not that long, but I have always wondered when I would be able to mount remote file systems via secure shell. -- /usr/sbin/pppd updetach noauth silent nodeflate pty "ssh root@NFS-SERVER /usr/sbin/pppd nodetach notty noauth" 10.0.0.1:10.0.0.2 mount 10.0.0.2:/FILESYSTEM /MOUNTPOINT easy. nfs over ssh out of the box with just 2 shell commands will work out of the box on virtually every unix like os made in the last 10 years. Please contact me offline for details where to send the $4500.

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[rodac]

# csaba, Hungary - Fuse / BSD / Network mount via SSH This is what I have been waiting for since the dawn of time. Well, not that long, but I have always wondered when I would be able to mount remote file systems via secure shell.

/usr/sbin/pppd updetach noauth silent nodeflate pty "ssh root@NFS-SERVER /usr/sbin/pppd nodetach notty noauth" 10.0.0.1:10.0.0.2

mount 10.0.0.2:/FILESYSTEM /MOUNTPOINT

easy. nfs over ssh out of the box with just 2 shell commands and it will work out of the box on virtually every unix like os made in the last 10 years.

Please contact me offline for details where to send the $4500.

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[Anonymous Coward]

How are we going to slashdot a server now?

Re:Hmmm, interesting projects

[(Score:1)]

About shfs
Shfs is a simple and easy to use <B>Linux kernel module</B> which allows you to mount remote filesystems using a plain shell (ssh) connection.

It's Linux..

Other MozDev projects:

[MTO_B.]

The list of projects says "Please note that this page contains a sampling and not a complete listing of the projects done as part of the Summer of Code."

The MozDev (related to Mozilla / Firefox) projects missing from the list are:

- Cockatoo: SIP phone extension for Mozilla Thunderbird
http://cockatoo.mozdev.org/

- Firepuddle: BitTorrent P2P for Mozilla
http://firepuddle.mozdev.org/

- Event Loger (An advanced macro and testcase creation tool for Firefox)
http://eventlogger.mozdev.org/

- Muzzled: graphical theme builder for mozilla
http://muzzled.mozdev.org/

- Vietnamese translation of Firefox
http://vi.mozdev.org/

Re:Other MozDev projects:

[mattwarden]

Some of it is just flat-out wrong, too. For example, it has me listed under XWiki with a description of how my project was rewriting and adding features to Horde_Form for Horde.org. I think they have some lines crossed somewhere. I also submitted a proposal to XWiki, but the one I submitted to Horde was the one accepted.

What about a "Winter of Code"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Suggestions:

- Google Talk voice support for Linux;

- Google Earth for Linux;

- Google office suite for Linux, er, for web;

- Google Desktop for Linux;

Well, actually, this could be hard... differences among Linux versions, among desktop environments, yada, yada, yada...

So, first: what about a common installation utility to (humbly and initially) work only in Gnome, KDE and XFCE -- with specific plug-ins in each environment to carry out the lowly details?

DISCLAIMER: my personal opinions, not my employer's.

Re:What about a "Winter of Code"?

[EvilSporkMan]

The desktop environment and/or window manager is completely irrelevant to the correct functioning of a program.

Re:What about a "Winter of Code"?

[Anonymous Coward]

> The desktop environment and/or window manager is completely irrelevant to the correct functioning of a program.

I disagree with you. Please note I'm talking about desktop environments, not window managers.

For instance:

- Things are installed in different places, depending on the distro/DE;
- Installing mechanisms are different. I, for one, would like to drop and "next,next,finish" a zip-like package the same way in KDE, be it in Slackware, Debian, Mandrake, SuSE or RedHat;
- DE integration is different -- e.g., a program may get a filetype association or config files may need modification (either DE configs or the application ones);
- Program makers keep complaining about Linux extreme diversity... a plug-in would take care of this. Shall we help them help us?

And etc.

Re:What about a "Winter of Code"?

[Breakfast Pants]

Google Talk voice support for Linux is already being worked on by Google. They recently hired the cheif developer of gaim.

Re:What about a "Winter of Code"?

[megabyte405]

Autopackage. www.autopackage.org - it works pretty slickly.

New: Results Posted

[MDMurphy]

It looked like a dupe to me too, and both posted by Zonk even.

But, the first posting was about the end of the "Summer of Code". This posting was a link to Google and the results of the program.

Some got paid considerably LESS than $9.30/hour

[Work Account]

That's how averages work.

Some put in more time.

Some put in less time.

Mathematics does not lie, however.

The average Google Summer of Code participant got scant more than minimum wage for their participation.

People complain about the Walmarts of the world but I guess here on Slashdot, Google can do no wrong, so $9/hr with no benefits for high-end tech work is fine and dandy.

Re:Some got paid considerably LESS than $9.30/hour

[kertong]

some CS interns do it for free.

Re:Some got paid considerably LESS than $9.30/hour

[eoyount]

Mathematics does not lie, but nowhere does anything say that the coders spent an average of 40 hours per week on their project. I would bet that a lot of these coders had summer jobs as well, and besides, I bet they're all getting paid to do something they enjoy.

Re:Some got paid considerably LESS than $9.30/hour

[Anonymous Coward]

What?! How do you know that the average coder put in 480 hours of work for their $4500? You just stated how much time they would have worked on it had they put in full-time hours for 12 weeks. What does that have to do with averages?

Re:Some got paid considerably LESS than $9.30/hour

[kebes]

Math may not lie, but people can misrepresent what's going on.

Google didn't pay these people anything. Rather, it provided grants/scholarships to people interested in working on open source code. People (coders and/or organizations) submitted proposals for ideas they wanted to work on, and Google selected some worthy ones that they would give extra money to, so as to encourage students to spend time doing some open-source coding.

Google was not hiring these people to work on specific projects that get added to the portfolio of Google products. Everyone involved could have turned down the grant money if they had a better offer. But for these students, who would have likely worked on these (or other) open-source projects over the summer anyway (to bolster their CV and/or because it's fun), the grant was probably a welcome bonus.

Everyone benefits from the open-source software that has been produced by these (partially funded) volunteers. Remember that the people working on these projects were contributing to open-source projects that are, by and large, non-commercial. That is, the summer-of-code people got $4500, whereas everyone else working on the project got $0. They are doing it because they want to. It is not a (traditional) job.

Re:Some got paid considerably LESS than $9.30/hour

[Cornflake917]

So the average GSoC participant worked on their project 40 hours a week? Can I see where you got these statistics please?

Even if you're right...

$9/hr is 75% (thats (9.00-5.15)/5.15*100% ) increase over minimum wage. Maybe to you that is "scant" more than minimum wage. But to someone who's never had a job or has only had minimum wage type jobs, it's not scant at all.

You say mathematics don't lie. However, I fail to see you actaully use any mathematics to prove your point.

Also it seems you left out a few obvious things like:

- Working at Walmart sucks ass.
- Working for one of the GSoC project might be fun and a good learning experience.
- The GSoC project will look good on your resume.
- Working at a fast food place or as a cashier won't get you coding experience.

Re:Some got paid considerably LESS than $9.30/hour

[Antonymous Flower]

Not to mention, some of these projects may have been started before summer of code was announced. In fact, applications which indicated an ongoing project were probably preferred as they were more likely to yield results.

Re:Some got paid considerably LESS than $9.30/hour

[Carewolf]

And remember two important things. It was only designed to be 9 weeks of work not 12, that puts the pay at 12$/hour, AND it is taxfree!
Which adds a nice extra bonus to it, besides being allowed to do whatever we like.

Re:Some got paid considerably LESS than $9.30/hour

[MrResistor]

Mathematics DOES lie. It's called "Statistics".

While we're on the subject, your math is certainly questionable: how exactly does "nearly double" = "scant more"?

There are plenty of tech jobs that pay $9 an hour, and those are exactly the kinds of jobs a CS student with no documentable experience can expect to get. Besides, it was 9 weeks, not 12, which makes it more like $12 an hour. To make it $9 an hour they'd have to have been putting in 55 hours per week, and to bring it down to minimum wage, $5.15 an hour, they'd have to be putting in 97 hours a week. "Scant more", you say?

I'm a woman in CS

[dptalia]

And with the exception of one job, I've always been the only woman on the programming team. I even had an employer ask me if I was okay with being the only woman. My response: "And this differs from the past 10 years how?"

At college most of the women went into chemical engineering, or varients (geological, biological, and there was one other which I can't remember). I don't know why more women don't care to program, but low stats for women doesn't surprise me a bit.

Re:I'm a woman in CS

[Tiger4]

"I even had an employer ask me if I was okay with being the only woman."

You insensitive clod! He was offering to cross dress publicly, so you would feel less lonely. He was coming out of the closet for you!

On a more serious note, back when I was in engineering school, my graduating class of 135 had 9 women. I was told the Industrial Engineering and Civil Engineering departments had the most women, at around 15%. Certainly those are the specialties I where find the most women working in industry.

Re:I'm a woman in CS

[Lifewish]

I've noticed the same thing at my university, in most of the more "technical" subjects (apart from biological natural sciences which has a large female contingent). The conclusion I've come to is that some part of Western cultural brainwashing trains girls to be less obsessive than guys. I have no firm idea why this should be, although it makes a sort of sense if you accept "man get food, woman clean home" as the most common situation a few years back. The man would need to specialise (see Hobbes et al) and the woman would need to stay general enough to do all the tasks relating to the home.

I figure that the trend will eventually reverse itself, and we'll get more girls spending their Sundays tinkering with random electronics and programming and stuff like a lot of the guys I know.

Re:I'm a woman in CS

[dptalia]

You insensitive clod! He was offering to cross dress publicly, so you would feel less lonely. He was coming out of the closet for you!

Oops! That'll teach me to be oblivious... That company even had a transgender bathroom policy.... You got to use whichever bathroom you were dressed as. Let me tell you I had a couple of worries when husky girls came in to use the facilities!

Re:I'm a woman in CS

[dptalia]

Apparently womean outnumber men in the life sciences, whereas men outnumber women in physics and computers. It seems that women prefer working with life things, rather than unresponsive machinery. Maybe men like the machines because they never ask if something makes them look fat.

Re:I'm a woman in CS

[Eric S. Smith]

It seems that women prefer working with life things, rather than unresponsive machinery.

Hey, it's only unresponsive when it's broken...

I also fail to see how killing and cutting up fuzzy bunnies is really feeding into anyone's nurturing, life-loving instincts, but I guess when you're deciding to go into a field you're working from the image, not the reality.

It's more than that, though, or people would drop programmes that didn't suit their initial impressions. A friend of mine from high school started in engineering in university, but then chucked it when he realized that he hated the programme, hated the people, hated the equations...

Various disciplines no doubt develop their own cultures, possibly not really related to the subject matter as such, and the various cultures will be uncomfortable to people of different temperaments. Setting aside as obvious barriers any traditions of blatant sexism, there are still likely to be sex-correlated patterns in who feels comfortable where. As other commenters have noted, these may even change over time, though not, I would suspect, necessarily automatically for the better.

Re:I'm a woman in CS

[dptalia]

Damn, I wish I could mod that up as insightful. But you're right, while there is a cutural component, there's also a biological component. I know I started off in a more science oriented major that CS, but one week of organic chemistry convinced me to change majors.

Personally, I enjoy the computer geek culture. I used to say that I was a programmer, which transcended all ideas of gender. Lately however I've found myself becoming more girly, so I wonder how much of my embrace of geek culture had to do with the rebelion of youth.

Your logic is horrendous

[Work Account]

Wow, McDonalds is hiring coders?

The point here is that software programming is more complex than flipping burgers. The pay should not be remotely close. Google is a billion dollar company. It is an insult that they even throw a paltry couple thousand at these guys who are doing real, complex engineering of software.

Yeah, but the downside is that it's McDonalds "food".

Close your DailyKos feed and stop going to your hippie documentary film class. Yes, a man ate a ton of food at McDonald's for a month and gained weight. Surprise surprise. I could do the same with any "heart-healthy" food you find at a food story. Guess what? Many have since LOST a ton of food by eating nothing but McDonald's food.

And yes, it is real food, at least as much as any of the 96% of items at a grocery store that are all pre-packaged, high in sodium, high in fat, and deficient in overall quality.

Re:Your logic is horrendous

[FLAGGR]

Do you know what this was all about? They weren't getting paid a wage. Google did not hire them. They spent spare time in the summer making a contribution to an open source project, which they may have/were doing for free anyway, and Google gave 'em $4500 and a tshirt. What the hell is wrong with that? These guys didn't sit in cubicles all summer coding, they did it on their spare time.

p.s. Your opinions on McDonalds food is pretty funny.

Re:Your logic is horrendous

[miyako]

It's amazing that google gives away 2 million dollars to benefit the open source community and you complain because it wasn't enough.
The Summer of Code wasn't a job. Google did not higher people to write code for them and play them only $9/hour.
Google instead offered students a chance to do some work with real OSS applications and to work with people who have experience developing with the OSS applications. They also gave each person who finished their project $4500 and $500 to the mentor (I think the mentor got the money regardless of if the coder finished his or her project or not) as a sort of bonus for perseverence.
The Summer of Code was sort of like a big round of bounties for code, except instead of deciding before hand what to put a bounty on they let the developers come up with ideas and then they picked the best ones.
Unfortunately none of the three applications I put in for the Summer of Code were accepted (and I will try to keep the bitterness toward the people who did complete their projects to a minimum ;) and the money would have been nice- but more importantly the Summer of Code really got me to look at some of the neat programs that still need to be written, the interesting things that still need to be contributed. I've always wanted to do more to contribute to open source, but I found it exceedingly hard to figgure out where to jump in. The Summer of Code helped a lot of people like me, projects accepted or not, by showing how we can get started helping the community that has built so much great software that we use every day.
(And by the way, I am working on one of the programs that I had originally submitted in an application, and IDE/Front End and Debugger for QCL, the idea being a way for non-physisist programmers to ease into learning about development on quantum computers. I hope to have an early release done sometime soon).

Re:Your logic is horrendous

[Cornflake917]

I think people could have told you years before the release of that documentary (which I haven't even watched) that McDonalds is crappy food.

Re:Your logic is horrendous

[stor]

Many have since LOST a ton of food by eating nothing but McDonald's food.

Oh I'd believe that. I'd lose all the food in my stomach if I ate a McDonald's "meal".

Chicken McNuggets, 9 Pieces. 27g fat. That's about your daily allowance of fat. I hope you're not eating anything else that day (e.g. fries with your meal) or that you're doing a decent amount of exercise:
http://www.dietfacts.com/html/items/1650.htm

Medium fries, 22g fat
http://www.dietfacts.com/html/items/17220.htm

Big Mac, 33g fat:
http://www.dietfacts.com/html/items/17210.htm

Enjoy, fatty.

Cheers
Stor

Re:Your logic is horrendous

[Anonymous Coward]

I was paid ~8.50/hr one summer to write code for a jet engine controller into the care of which many of you have put your lives.

It's not about how complicated the job is. It's about how much the company knows you'll be willing to whore yourself for just to get the opportunity.

Re:Your logic is horrendous

[lordofthechia]

The Summer of Code wasn't a job

Aye, thank you! Google was just offering money as an incentive for people (students) to do volunteer work! I mean c'mon, it's really win win. Even if obviously google chose projects that they were mostly interested in, they mated alot of CS students with making real contributions to open source projects (how many folks do you know that would like to do something but are just to shy or unmotivated to take the first step to volunteer?).

To summarize:
* Tons of extra progress made in a myriad of OSS projects
* A whole bunch of students got some spending money to *volunteer*
* These students are very likely to continue volunteering now that they have taken that first step
* Alot of volunteers have a really awesome addition to their resume
* Those same folks now have their foot in the door at Google
* Google gets some of their favorite projects worked on, develop further goodwill with the OSS community, and they set an awesome example to the business community.

Heck, next folks will be complaining about the peace core paying too little...

Re:Your logic is horrendous

[Anonymous Coward]

Your daily allowance of fat is 65g, of which no more than 20g should be saturated fat.

T-Shirts?

[The Rizz]

"Now we just have to wait for the T-shirts..."

"I coded open-source software all summer, and all I got was $4500 and this lousy T-shirt" ??

Re:T-Shirts?

[arrow014]

As opposed to all the students who coded all summer and didn't even get a T-shirt?

Re:T-Shirts?

[Pneuma ROCKS]

"Open-source: cheap"

Your analogy is horrible

[schon]

On the off chance that you're not a troll, I'll respond here.

The point here is that software programming is more complex than flipping burgers.

No, the point is that flipping burgers for a fast-food chain is in no way comparable to being paid to do something you would already be doing, rather than having to give up that thing you love to go work in a fast-food joint.

It is an insult that they even throw a paltry couple thousand at these guys who are doing real, complex engineering of software.

So, rather than "insulting" them, Google should have done nothing, and let the programmers languish?

Isn't that chip on your shoulder getting a little heavy for you?

Re:Your analogy is horrible

[Anonymous Coward]

What matters isn't how much you enjoy it, it's how much work you're actually doing. Coding is skilled work, working at a fast food place is not, so it should be paid more.

George?

[Chickenofbristol55]

This time shall be known as the summer of George!

mod_smtpd (?)

[pergamon]

So I noticed mod_smtpd in there.

Is there some corollary to the well known quote like "Every daemon attempts to expand until it can schlep mail" that I'm not aware of?

Re:mod_smtpd (?)

[Matts]

It may seem bizarre to you, but apache.org's mail servers already run on an SMTPD that runs in the apache2 process. It's called Qpsmtpd.

Re:mod_smtpd (?)

[pergamon]

Bizarre? No. Funny? Yes.

Funny because a piece of software that's just a glorified "cat" (and a little of "ls") has evolved into something so complex and powerful that it makes sense to use it as platform for other kinds of software.

Re:This was posted 6 WEEKS AGO!

[HanClinto]

*don't feed the trolls, don't feed the trolls*... bah. I'll bite and reply.

If you remember anything about the article from 6 weeks ago that you posted a link to, then you would remember that it was extremely thin as far as details went. Did you look at many of the projects when it was "officially over"? If you had, you would remember that a quite a number of them hadn't turned in their final versions yet, nor had they turned in their final reports (and if they had finished/turned in the report, then it wasn't available yet for public access, it had only been turned into their project supervisors).

If you went to college, then maybe you remember that college students have a "habit" of turning stuff in at or after the deadline? The SOC was no different. That's why you don't get your grade results until a week or two *after* it's over. It takes time to figure out what-the-heck-happened during the flurry that was the deadline.

You would have preferred this in a slashback then? Perhaps -- I for one was glad to see this, and I look forward to more updates as this list is completed. It will be good to see some more information about the results of the SOC, and what can be changed to improve it in the future.

There was plenty of new information in this new article, after having read both of them, I frankly don't see what you're griping about.

Next time, complain about a legitimate dupe. If things are as bad as you say they are, then you should have no trouble finding a real one.

google earth is supposedly being ported for linux

[PhiberOptix]

here's one of numerous slashdot articles about google mentioning it >>

Other interesting things include a Linux port of Google Earth

Pay is about right

[Sdoh]

The idea is good. The pay is about right. I had a chance to take a look at one of the "finished" projects. About 20K of PHP code which looks like written in last two weeks before the deadline with a lot of copy-paste from other sources.

I guess the idea was not to get a lot of good code but to make more students involved in coding and Open Source. I guess this goal is achieved. I would consider the program as an investment in public education and a good PR.

Southern Hemisphere Summer

[paul.schulz]

The Google Summer of Code fitted in with northern hemisphere student
timetables.. what about Southern Hemisphere students?

- South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, Brazil, New Zealand,
and Brazil (no particular order, and by no means exclusive) are some of the
countries that would have students that could participate.

Maybe Canonical/Ubuntu could run a Southern Hemisphere Summer of Code?
or, in the spirit of open source and open markets, southern hemisphere students
can hook into Ubuntu's bounty program.

http://www.ubuntu.com/community/bounties/view?sear chterm=bounty

A 'do it yourself' summer of code... anyone want to sponsor the T-shirts?

Re:Southern Hemisphere Summer

[ShakiirNvar]

How about google open an office in Australia, that way there can be an "Aussie" Summer of Code for us coders in the southern half of the planet.

Yeah, I've read it, too.

[Anonymous Coward]

I knew about this, but I posted it anyway as a wish...

a. for completeness and
b. You know, sometimes you're short in arguments... it was a kind of marketing thing... *blushes*

Thanks for bringing this up. It gave me a chance to apologize to Google...

From a woman in engineering...

[icefaerie]

Yeah, things tend to be skewed that way. In my high school programming experience, I was always one of the few girls, although at the competitions we attended, girls were always equitably represented among the winners, it seemed. Through the three years I participated, there were three, then five, then six girls at competitions with about 70ish participants. My programming teacher in high school once asked me what it was like to be the only girl in the class. It's difficult, especially when you're around insecure teenage boys who can't deal with the fact that a girl could own them at programming. Although I eventually gained their respect (it only took, oh, two years), the task was lonely and difficult.

As for the ratio of men to women in CS at my university, I can't specifically comment, as I'm a freshman ChemE now (51% female here, interestingly), but I know that electrical and computer engineering is 11% female. (Oh, the facts one must know to be a tour guide...)

As for Google specifically, just tonight I attended a Google information session at my university, and the proportions of men to women were about the same as those aforementioned programming competitions. It wasn't very surprising, because I guess I've just gotten used to it.

Naga...Naga....Not Gonna Work Here Anymore.

[methangel]

Ok, wow. Did this "Summer of Code" take place over in India?

Aside from the two "Thomas" fellas, the rest were all foreigners.

Re:Naga...Naga....Not Gonna Work Here Anymore.

[trythil]

Obviously, you can't always determine a person's country of origin by their name.

The map at http://code.google.com/soc-map.html seems to be a pretty good indicator of where SoC students are. While incomplete -- and, judging from the traffic on the SoC mailing lists, maybe even wrong in some ways -- it still provides a better way to judge student locations than inferring on names, IMHO.

- David, USian SoC student

Re:Naga...Naga....Not Gonna Work Here Anymore.

[Anonymous Coward]

hey!

you've just discovered that the world is more than just the USA

heck, you've probably just realised that the internet is more than
just a USA network - and that most coders are not American.

xenophobic freak!

Re:Summer Of Half Baked shitty projects

[Anonymous Coward]

True, it would have been better if a single soc_2005 project would have been created and divided into sub-projects similar as wxCode (http://wxcode.sf.net/) is for wxWidgets code snippets.

Google didn't pay wages at all

[mcvos]

At least as far as I understand it, the $4500 aren't wages. The participants weren't on Google's payroll, and if you didn't finish, you didn't get anything.

The guy at my work who participated (and finished) still got his regular wages from our employer, as far as I know.

"finishing code" is only 1/3 of product

[peter303]

Having worked for the largest commercial software writer in my sector for a decade, writing a chuck of code to the point where is all compiles and runs is only 1/3 of the work at best. Refining to team and customer sasitifaction, removing bugs. support and marketing can easily be 60-80% of the work. Especially if you work in teams with people of different specialties.

Hey, they did Blender stuff!

[Papatoast]

I love Blender. Gotta get ready for the '06 summer of love..er..code..

README

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that's an interesting point and along the lines of what I'm thinking of. It bothers me that they are paying people to contribute to open source projects. (My image word is "depends" - ironic) Right, basically I see UNPAID contribution to open source projects as intrinsic to the very culture that is open source projects. I myself have developed code and released it for the good of the FOSS community and not for money. I'm NOT saying that the people that contributed to the Google Summer of Code projects did it ONLY for money. All I'm saying is that the nature of open source development is that you give regardless. Then maybe later if you've contributed something valuable you get the rewards. I don't want to sound pessimistic so please don't misconstrue what I'm saying. Let's keep the egg before the chicken (or whatever way you want to loook at it). Do we want a new culture where OSS developers only contribute for money?? What would that be? I really hope they are not trying to be gods here. Google is a publically owned company. I think they houldn't tamper with OSS culture. I do hope their intentions are good but never the less, we have a duty to be sceptical. What if there was NO open source development culture? Would Tanenbaum have vreated Minix if noone else was developing for free? Would the development teams be as strong as they are now? Let me put it this way: Do we want all open source development to be subsidised by companies like Google, IBM, or Sun? I say leave OSS development alone. It's just fine the way it is. It gave us Linux?? I'd love someone to tell me how much money would have had to have been invested in developers to create Linux!! And would they have done given the knowledge that they were directlty supporting a corporation?? Once again I am not tryin to troll of flamebait here. It's just an interestin muse of mine in to the possibly changing nature of OSS development. It worries me.

--Paul