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Finding a Ready-Made Dev Team?
marshrew writes "We are a small startup just coming out of a period of R&D with IP and prototype code (containing open source, commercial & freelancer-built custom components) developed/integrated in-house by essentially one guy. We're at the point where we want to build out first commercial implementation which will require a handful of developers for at least six months. We really don't have time or funds to go through a developer recruiting cycle, create a practice, get the team "gelled" etc. What we'd really like to do is find a small pre-existing team which which we could form a relationship to get our product out the door and possibly continue working with. We don't mean a splinter group from a larger dev house, but an agile, self-contained team, who enjoy working together and have an existing practice. Geography is not a problem as we are used to working in a distributed manner." Does such an animal exist? What have other teams done in a situation like this?
In 2005, a crack Hacker unit was sent to prison by an over-zealous RIAA for a crime they didn't commit(Theft , it should have been copyright infringement).
,to the Los Angeles und3rgr0und!!!!. Today, still wanted by their Previous employers due to a contractual problem and for maintaining some perl code , they survive as Developers of FORTRAN.
These men promptly got released due to a technicality
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...the @-Team.
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
That's who we used in 2001 when we needed a huge web-based Java system done. They brought in nine programmers with a top-notch project manager. It cost a lot, but it cost less than not doing it.
Try www.rentacoder.com , or other such sites. Although most people on the site are private individuals, there are some organizations with dozens of programmers, that can be hired for any period of time or to accomplish any set goal. Plus there is the benefit of user feedback from others who have hired the same team in the past. You can browse the list of teams with the highest user feedback, and invite them to bid on your project.
I hear there are a group of developers who are just being dropped by Song BMG, perhaps you could give them a call ;)
liqbase
Sourceforge? www.sourceforge.net
When a company shuts down or lays off a bunch of developers, whole teams become available. I've seen hiring 'feeding frenzies' resulting from this, you're not unique in wanting to hire teams. Sometimes a team is hired as salaried staff, sometimes a team leader gets asked if he can get a team together for a contract (ie "form your own company, and we've got a job for you").
Either way, its rich pickings and unfortunately not that hard to find.
in Cambridge, UK. I worked with them once. They are like a small Logica.
Or S3 (Silicon Software Solutions) in Dublin, Ireland. I used to work for them.
Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
This is optimistic at best. Remember the power of 3 rule: :-) )
(where UOW=unit of work (man/month
1 UOW = program for yourself
3 UOW = give it to someone else
(you install, you copy, etc)
9 UOW = give it to local group
(howto, platform change)
27 UOW = shareware/open source
(configure/make/make install)
81 UOW = product
(real docs, slick UI, support teams)
243 UOW = business
(lawyers, CEO, sales, marketing)
you're looking at a lot more work than you're willing to
admit. unless it is a trivial application you need to
understand that writing the program in the first place
is the easiest part of the whole problem. Teams which
don't include the original developer are even harder.
Tim Daly
Have you given SourceForge http://www.sf.net/ a good looking over for projects similar in scope and application to yours? Seems to me it shouldn't be too hard to find a group already working together working on X.application developing in X.language. Good luck...
These were some guys who worked with my company in Massachussetts. They're pretty Java-focussed, I think, but they're good. They formed their group to do exactly what you're asking for. They were composed of three or four guys at the time.
http://team345.com/
Speaking as a developer starting out, and having just joined a startup myself, I believe if your project is cool enough, people will be willing to work with you. And what's more, the people you'll attract will most likely be the ones who stand to contribute most to the project. The converse is also true. Startups have succeeded and and failed according to this rule.
Motivation is a key factor among geeks. Spread awareness of the project, show people that it's worth something, and that its success is in their best interests, and you can stand back and watch the magic. Of course, that's easier said than done. Learn to manage your geeks.
If we abstract it a bit, it sounds like exactly the type of work my previous employer contracted inhouse. They specialized primarily in building automation, but that's just a different field of work.
I would be surprised if you couldn't find consulting engineers (no clue what you call them in English) that specialize in software development. While I don't personally know of any, try calling around to various consulting engineers, or visit in person if there are any in the local area. I know that my employer had calls like that at least once a week (not software development though), and they never had a problem in directing people to the right company (knowing that they in turn will direct people to them). Even if they don't know a company for sure, they'll probably know who might know, or they'll get curious and start asking around themselves.
I hope this helps - and if you manage to find some that do this, by all means tell the rest of us - we never know if it might come in handy.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
Now, what happens when the product is in need for support? Who are going to support code written by a team of super corders?
What happens when there's a demand for extra functionality? Who's going to implement that?
Who will maintain the code?
Yes, you could try to reassemble the team, but developers hate support. And besides, the team will much rather start on a new project than supporting the old one.My suggestion is, that you take your time and hire people the old fashioned way. If you don't have enough time to do that, your project is doomed anyway.
Underholdning.info
AGILE.....goddamnit. It's software, not a 4 legged creature!
This guy is way out there
The question very much reminds me of what I guy I know said when his 15 people ICT security company were looking for a new guy: "All the good people already work for us, or we know who they work for. Now we're looking for the person nobody else has found yet". This will be the same with the ready made development team. They have a job somewhere, so unless they are a small contracting team that just happens to have an open spot in their schedule you're more or less doomed.
Managing this group is even tougher. The way you describe your company is that it is small, tightly knit, build around one person. Now you need to get new people to work with your group, to smoothen out differences in development philosophy, to get the leader to let go of parts of his baby etc etc.
Tough job ahead of you. Good luck.
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The way one local (and now powerful) company did it was by "hiring" people for pizza. If the product is cool, then you'll corral some college geeks to do the groundwork and free up your good coders for the cool work.
0 0713.html ) that college students, who were used and abused during the bubble, remain a good resource of, dare I say it, cheap labour. They like the prestige, need the experience, and are used to working in small project teams. And yeah, you can pay them peanuts.
This has been touched on recently in some blogs ( http://www.wilshipley.com/blog/ and http://www.drunkenblog.com/drunkenblog-archives/0
And no, they don't even need to be in college. Two of the most impressive code monkeys I know dropped out of High School.....
You could try and partner up with an IT firm.
We currently are partned with three startups; our company provides the IT knowledge for a seriously reduced fee in exchange for a partial ownership in the product that is being build.
Basically we're investing (the reduced fee is still very much required, so that there is an incentive to actually finish the product). However you still need to convince the IT firm why it should invest.
Tbee (or not?)
...and how did the project turn out!?
India (Bangladesh)??? :)
India and Bangladesh are 2 separate sovereign countries. India hasn't quite annexed Bangladesh (yet!) and I don't think they want to either
This team works for cheap:
http://www.newtechusa.com/ppi/talent.asp
http://www.welton.it/davidw/
but the poster probably doesn't want another top-notch, ASCII-art dungeon game.
Well, since you're posting as anonymous with high praise for IBM Global Service, let's see this counter argument from Kuro5hin: How IBM Conned My Execs Out Of Millions .
This is a first-person account of how IBM was able to con my execs out of millions of dollars. Gullible management tries to swim with the shark and gets chewed to pieces. Witness the exec-level FUD sales techniques and the $325/hr subcontractor labor bait and switch.... More...
a) Only work with people you know and trust. Until you're Microsoft, you cannot (CANNOT!) afford to make hiring mistakes, everyone in your team must be experienced and brilliant.
b) Try to arrange for everyone to be in the same building or room, THE only way to brain storm is on an old fashioned whiteboard, not on a chat client, which is really only suited to quick questions and answers, not visual thinking. That's why companies still have physical offices, even in a world of broadband and video converencing.
c) ONLY allow remote workers if you can be guaranteed they WILL be available online when YOU are online to ensure maximum productivity and real-time discussion of vital issues.
d) Only farm out small modular tasks to remote workers, keep your core coders close to hand and reward them with ownership in the project.
e) Have a well written contract and strict but fair code of conduct that should be signed by all parties on paper (not e-mail 'replies').
f) If you lack the personality to be firm with those who let you down, or cannot hire someone to take on such a role, do not embark on your venture, else your ship will drift all over the place only to be washed up on the rocks.
g) Else, go for it and if you need any more tips (or can provide any!), reply to this with posting.
Good luck, and "May The Force be You!"
O'WONDERWe're working on it.
I don't mean to be facetious. It's just the team you describe would normally be 90% of the value of a company, so they will be in the position of strength. In their position my first question would be "Why should we go with you when we could probably get to same position by ourselves?", especially given that you seem to be low on resources.
Don't you hate it when that happens? You write something well meaning and helpful, do a Preview, and yet still fail to spot all the errors until after posting it. I guess it's the thought that counts! The fact most /. postings are written by busy people in the mo of the heatment mean that mustooks are bond to hippin wonse in a wyle. Oh whell. :-)
O'WONDERWe're working on it.
My experiences from a few years freelance consulting in mid-sized development projects are:
Of course, there are also downsides to building your own team, and you are probably aware of them. I would go and build my own.
lame.sourceforge.net
the layman's guide to computer science
A bunch of coders with nothing to code was waiting for us in India (Bangladesh).
I assume you mean Bangalore. Bangladesh is a separate country.
Not only that, we still had coders working days in the US, plus the devs working in India, so we were coding over 16 hours a day.
Does this matter? Two people working in the US and two in India should be no better than four working in the US. In fact, they should be slower, as there are all sorts of communications hassles.
The "16 hour day" rubbish works well with call-centers, where you want people available 24/7, but with coding, there is no advantage to shift-work.
IBM milks its clients for the maximum money it can get. I've seen it myself, we would ask for a 1 line change in the code, even show them how to do it and they would milk it for 4 months of team money.
5 years to make a website? No problem, IBM can drag it out that long.
10 years to make a database, yaking so long that the hardware goes out of date before it's complete? RAF can tell you about that one.
what about a serious and renowed technology firm? These guys have your team ready and can assemble/send you a new one -- a GOOD one -- in a matter of days. OR they can manage them for you.
Disclaimer: I don't work for them, I do NOT receive any $$$ from them, but most of them are former University colleagues of mine, and I can vow for their honesty and seriousness. Visit their website, give their clients a call, give them a call, IIRC they can even send someone to talk to you in person.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
I had one such practice a few years back. However, in 2001-2003 there were fewer people looking for this kind of service. People were generally unwilling to take risks, and nothing much was happening in terms of application development. Atleast nothing like whats happening now, or back in '99.
Although many websites (like rentacoder.com) offer this functionality, it is difficult to guarantee the quality of people you will end up working with. The surprising limitation of these sites is that they have no mechanism to ensure quality of bidders or participants. Which is exactly why Arzoo.com (by the hotmail founder) failed. Bad quality. Add to that, people simply trying to outbid others. I have even seen $100 for a 1 month job!!! If you go to such sites, you are very likely to lose some time trying to filter out the not-so-good ones.
Since you will be working with people you know little about, there are however things that you could do, before making your final decision.
1. See if they have blogs. Look at their attitude, language, code quality, passion, whatever...
2. Talk to them. Check for conversational skills. These are very important!
3. See if they have done any open source work. (That will be a real bonus!)
4. Ask them to send source code.
I feel such a practice certainly has a place in modern IT. Agile, Quality-Concious and Inexpensive.
Things are looking up again, and thats good news.
Good luck to you.
Life is just a conviction.
I've had a good working relationship for some years with SoftRP.net . The Web site says they're in Canada, and this may be true, but the outfit originates from the Ukraine. AFAIK, most are graduates from the University of Kiev.
These are a varied and skilled bunch of coding mercenaries, and they quickly and graciously executed a number of small projects for me (figureheading for a small company that was the actual customer). Their prices are a bit higher than your run-of-the-mill Indian/Chinese shop, but that was compensated by their ability to think for themselves and produce a working product off a simple, not overly detailed spec. Also, and I find this important, they ask questions rather than stumbling into blind alleys. As I mentioned, I'm a one man show and my projects were small, on the order of few man-weeks, and I was sorry not to have a decent-sized job for them to chew on. They certainly suggested they had manpower in reserve.
No, I'm not affiliated or kickbacked or anything. I'm just a satisfied customer and would likely hire them again for the next project that comes up.
When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Rel
OK fair enough that you can't afford to do the recruiting cycle for a whole team, but I would go through the effort to hire someone you trust to find and manage the right team for you. Whether these are student "code-monkeys", international cheap-labour, or the IBM-team from hell, all that doesn't matter if you have someone that works close to you and knows how to find and utilise these resources to their fullest potential.
I used to work in residential construction, where through the contracting of a house only the very largest companies actually do the whole process in house.
We had a small crew who did framing and all the odd jobs to glue all the pieces together. But painting, trimming, electric, HVAC, plumbing, and architectural design all got handed off to a specialist who was paid by the job, and didn't get hired again if he did a crappy job. After a while it became very apparent which guys in town were worth hiring, and they're the ones who got all the jobs on the next projects.
Sure there were problems, but none of this "oh you wanted the walls actually painted? I thought you just wanted a primer" BS that I seem to hear all the time out of computer consulting services.
And, for the most part, people stand by their work. All work is pretty much guaranteed for a year - if it was their crap that broke, they'll fix it free. Only time you have to pay them for extra work is if it's something in their expertise who breakage wasn't their fault.
And when people did screw up horribly (like ending up with two different shades of paint in the same room) they worked overtime for the rest of the week to fix it so we could make our schedule or they didn't get paid for the lousy work! Why doesn't anyone enforce this sort of thing in the CS environment?
I had a bad experience and then a very good one with rentacoder.com - basically I had this pain in the ass problem to do with VOIP and I couldn't get to the bottom of it so at the end of my tether I thought - what the hell - I'll drop 100 USD on rentacoder to see if there's someone who wants to take up the challenge. Anyway, I got a couple of bids and eventually I gave the problem to this chap who seemed to know what he was doing. FOUR WEEKS LATER he's only logged into the box once - so I didn't feel that bad when I asked the rentacoder arbitrators to review the 2 week overdue project (or has he put it "ratted me out"). So my options were then either to get the refund from the escrow account ( they do this to prove that you have the funds - but they won't release it until you're 100% happy) or try again - ah what the hell, why not eh? ... sooo I put the project up again and this new chap offers to fix it within 24 hours - I immediately accept his bid ( can't be bothered waiting till the end of the "auction") and send him the IP and login details (this is at about 11pm). By 10am the next day, the dude has fixed exactly what I needed fixing and come up with a number of suggestions about other improvements I could make. Additionally, I've now put approx 800 USD worth of other coding + configuration stuff his way since then.
:
My advice
Start with something small - i.e. around the 100 USD mark. By all means say that it's part of a larger project soon to be up for bidding, but make sure the project tests several areas in which you need experience and expertise, but is relatively straightforward and simple for people who actually know what they're doing. This will hopefully attract the attention of the coders you want and hopefully make it easy for you to weed out the wannabes.
Two wrongs may not make a right, but three
.... then you had a serious problem at the analysis phase of your project, and thus deserve to fail.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It's hard to enforce this with programming.
With construction you have set plans that don't change too drastically, with programming you'll find people changing their mind through out the build.
Think of it as your building a 4 bedroom single family house and the developer is constantly making little(to him) changes to the plan, you know, add a new bathroom, change the den into a formal dinning room, oh, and the garage is actualy supposed to be part of the house, not a seperate building (didn't we mention that?), and yes it wasn't on the plans we signed off on originally, but those plans just don't work anymore.
Now with 50% completion, the owners decide that what would work at this location, is actually a 4 family duplex.
Now that the building is finished and awaiting final inspection, we need 1 really quick change, insteaad of regular telephone jacks wired to each room, we need Cat 6, as we will be doing IP phones, but thats a real easy change right, a couple of plates is all? Now that you've done that, we talked to the guy who bags our grocerys and he had a great idea, move the hoy water tank from the basement to the attic.
Would you expect the contractors to just eat the difference, or not ask that the deadline change? You as a contractor would point out the changes are all going to cost time and money and aren't in the original thst you based you quote on, but the developer is convinced that it has to be done and pays the extra costs. of course once everything is finished, the developer will go on and on how expensive the project is, and how long it took, and how it still isn't exactly what he wanted (but is exactly what the plan and change orders asked for).
And yes I've seen this, I've provided IT to costruction and HVAC companies for over 10 years and see this all the time. They complain about delays annd costs, and compare it to how they build projects.
----
A few points:
1. The client was a defense contractor. defense contractors are some of the most absolutely incompetent companies I've ever worked with. Just as bad as telecom (old at&t) and government.
2. The client apparently went with a waterfall project plan, in which there were few if any milestones. And surprise, they discover at the very end that there are problems. Duh.
3. According to the poster, the client wasn't capable of simple math: didn't know that the contracting run rate would consume their budget before the project was complete. Again, duh.
4. According to the poster, IBM was charging $325 for everyone. That doesn't sound accurate in my experience with IBM (and other large consulting companies) - in which a couple of top people would be at $325, and the shock troops anywhere from $150-$225.
5. Also, the customer hired programmers for a small project from a large system integrator. That's never a good way to save money, it's a good way to assemble a team overnight.
6. The poster doesn't really understand knowledge management, business intelligence, or customer relationship marketing. By simply dismissing these domains as over-hyped, he's just revealing ignorance. This isn't to say that everyone needs everything that all vendors claim they can deliver, but these are huge domains full of history and detail. And can deliver a lot *if* you understand them and their best practices. If you don't, then you're probably buying/building the wrong solution anyway.
On the flip side, I do agree that IBM has a hard time holding onto top talent. They don't pay enough, and their bureacracy can be a pain in the butt. When you get a team you should absolutely interview every member, and put milestones in the project where you can jettison the team if they suck. But, this isn't an IBM-thing, it's something you should do for whatever team you work with.
You know what the real difference is? In home building the design is probably 10 or 15% of the total cost (pulled that out of my butt), but in software, the design is 98% of the total cost. When you finish the design (the code), you're essentially done.
When you're designing a $250,000 house, and you're half done the design and the future owner wants to move everything around, then it might become a $260,000 or $275,000 house cost and the owner sees a small percentage change because design is a small percentage of price. When you're designing a $250,000 software program which is 98% design cost, and the customer wants to make major changes half way through and you tell him the price is now $350,000 or more, they complain big time.
To fix this you need to break the software project up into pre-design and regular design stages. In the pre-design stage you need a mock-up of the application that you use can see and touch and feel, like the blueprints of a house, and let them change their mind then (i.e. rapid prototyping). The problem of course is that user interface design sometimes takes more than 10 to 15% of the total software time, so it's probably impossible, but something to think about.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain