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U.S. Army Testing Personal Cooling Suits
DJ BenBen writes to tell us that they Army is currently testing some 500 liquid cooled vests with Humvee crews in Iraq. From the article: "The Humvees with add-on armor were fitted with air conditioners after TARDEC engineers in Warren, Mich., were given the requirement to figure out how Soldiers in armored vehicles could be kept cool under the desert sun. Some of the same engineers had designed the add-on armor kits for the M-998 and M-1025 Humvees in theater. But with the extra armor and doors closed, temperatures inside the vehicles could reportedly reach more than 130 degrees. 'It's like putting somebody in a toaster oven on low heat,' said Charlie Bussee, an engineer at TARDEC."
Is it such a good idea to 'Slashdot' a MILITARY website?
Lets hope they don't hit back....
DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
And exactly why would you ask scientists and engineers in MICHIGAN to test the effect of a DESERT environment? Utah I could understand. Or Nevada. Or Arizona. Or New Mexico. But Michigan?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
That could be a scare for some troops.
I'm not a doctor, but is it good for soldiers' health to be hot and cold simultaneously? I have heard that having air conditioning and heating on is not healthy, so what about this?
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I have a lot of friends in Iraq right now and they tell me that the Iraqi's are 100% convienced that the US already has air conditioned boxers, briefs, panties and bras... how else can they move around in that heat!
I was a little nipper when the Space Race was in full swing.
In the early '70s, Popular Science ran an article by a stuff writer who tried out one of the water-cooled undergarments worn by astronauts during "EVA."
The garment was resembled full-length underwear, laced with yards and yards of plastic tubing. The cooling source was a bag of ice worn on the hip. Kind of like a fanny pack.
The writer put on the suit, dressed normally, and went for a walk around Manhattan on a stinking hot day. One of the few details I remember: A picture of him loading up the ice bag at a bar.
"A rapid-release system allows Soldiers to quickly disconnect the hoses so they can jump out of the vehicle and keep the vests on."
Let's just hope that the water circulating through the vest is sucked out by the release system, or else that once-was-cold water is going to turn very hot and very heavy, RSN.
http://www.asti-usa.com
By chance is it made of black snakeskin, cover your head, and keep you cool despite looking really, well hot?
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
It's like putting somebody in a toaster oven on low heat
Boy, but you should see them complain when it's on high!
Sure, these vests might work great while in-vehicle. But they're worn under-armor; what happens when a soldier has to exit the vehicle quickly? Sure, the hoses are quick-release, but now he's got yet another layer of clothing on in the desert heat, a layer that probably doesn't help his maneuverability. Perhaps there's a better solution.
What's old is new again! NASA had it in the 60's. NASCAR drivers had it in the 70's and 80's. It was called the Cool Suit. It ran water in hoses via a small pump thru a cooler full of ice and then thru a vest like garment worn by the driver. Later on they added a fan which blew cool air into the helmet to keep the head cool. Worked great but the extra weight of the ice/water was not very nice. And some of the earlier systems did need ice added if it was really really hot. Temps inside a race car can run 135 and up and for 3-4 hours during a race.
What it takes to get them home safely: stop declaring war on people. :P
that's a great idea, but of course we then still need this system to keep the beer cold.
Civilian racing versions usually feature a small pump inside of a water reservoir in an ice cooler. The pump runs off the car's 12VDC system. The rest of the cooler is filled with ice, to keep the water cold.
You can get one right here for $320 (for a limited time.) Perhaps the military should just buy them from those guys, if they can come up with 40,000 of them or so :)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I live in São Paulo. In the summer, when it isn't raining (and sometimes even when it is raining) it gets frickin' hot. When I didn't have a car (and for the short time when I had a car without air conditioning) and had to visit customers wearing at least "business casual-plus" clothes and sometimes a suit and tie during the summer, my mind naturally turned to ways to keep myself cool so I wouldn't arrive all sweaty and wrinkled at the customer sites.
I had the idea of a personal cooling unit, with a box (maybe carried in a briefcase) that would cool some liquid (water maybe) and pump it through tubes that I would be wearing to cool strategic regions of my body (major arteries and possibly veins near the skin seemed like good places to have the tubes passing). I had this amazing mental image of me walking down the Avenida Paulista (a famous major avenue in the city) in the blazing sun on the hottest day of the year, wearing a black wool suit and looking cool and comfortable while people around me in shorts, sleeveless shirts and sandals were panting and bathed in sweat.
The technical issues seemed tough to master, especially the question of how I would cool the water (or other liquid). Then it occurred to me that I could just have a reservoir filled with as much ice as it could hold, and then cold water filling the remaining space. A simple battery-operated pump would pump the water through aquarium tubing to the aforementioned strategic points and then back to the reservoir for heat exchange with the ice and cooler water. This version would be able to provide cooling for a much shorter time than the one with a portable refrigeration unit, but one could always refill the reservoir with ice and water, and it would be a lot easier to build and maintain. I would be able to build it from readily available (and inexpensive) components. Not to mention that I wouldn't have the problem of powering a portable refrigeration unit. This one seemed doable, but I ended up buying a car with air conditioning before I got around to making my personal cooling unit, and my interest in actually completing the project waned.
"It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
Actually, we don't usually declare wars; we just wage them.
military spending is such a waste. I can't remember the last time i used something developed by the military. I think the net would be a better place without this kind of research.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
I don't know if this is such a good idea..when I was in Afghanistan we often were in humvees and they were already crammed as it is. I think anything like this would just add to the chaos that is inside the humvee. Although it is a step in the right direction It just dosn't seem smart. Its hard to get out of a humvee when you plan to, and I can't imagine how bad this might add to any reaction to contact or IED. The Ac in humvees right now is not too bad, its just the fact that it overheats the engine and you end up having to shut it off is what sucks. Then again, its always cool up top on the turret...
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Becasue drinking your own sweat is fun!
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Do you wear full body armour on top of coveralls and carry 50 pounds of equipment wherever you go on those days? I know I sure as hell wouldn't if I had the choice hehe.
I am going on a limg here and say your not wearing T-shirt, long pants, long sleeves, helmet, flak jacket,canteen, side arm, automatic weaponn, ammo, etc . . .
All while looking for people trying to kill you.
" I *never* even turn on my car's air conditioner (though admitedly, most people do)."
yeah, well your a kook.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Okay, yes, a coolsuit isn't news for some. What I take issue with is that you seem to have taken the same, unfortunate belief that so many smart people fall into. Military development isn't cheap, and because all the exact details are rarely given out to the public, it's assumed to be mostly waste. While this may be true in some cases, it's not the norm. Believe it or not, the Army does have a limited budget and actually cares about researching many areas simultaneously; thus they do care about waste.
Anyway, there's always a difference between a commercial technology and a military one. Take this suit for example. How many times do you think racecar drivers get shot at while in their cars? If a bullet penetrates through, what will the results be? If there is fluid leakage, will it harm internal tissue or poison the blood stream, or is it so cold that muscles will tense up? If there are wires (and there are), could those short out and cause electrical damage to the wearer? If the system becomes non-functioning, what could happen that would prevent the wearer from continuing the mission? Lastly, what do the soldiers that will be issued this device think about it? You know, the guys that have been there, and will be going back? Yep, the Army gets everyone's input (even privates), and that's a huge benefit mostly unique to our military.
As someone that's in the Army, I can tell you that we don't get issued ANYTHING unless the leadership is confident that it will benefit our mission. That's not a bad thing.
Long, cute, or funny Sigs are just another form of over compensation, used by geeks, nerdz, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Ducks#Relatio
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/football/nc
http://www.fanblogs.com/pac10/004233.php
Some sources say that they use some sort of liquid coolant, which can also be heated, while others say compressed air is used. Still, the point is that the Ducks are better equipped than the Army.
Oh boy :-( Don't tell me you are trying to tie 9/11 to Iraq. Dubya/Dick..that you?
"reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
And I can think of 30,000 or so people who might agree with it, if they could. Your point?
Why don't they just fix the air conditioning in the HumVee in the first place.
Then again - a tank's crew mission is usually to stay in the tank while a humvee crew might have a need to move around more easely (but maybe just cooling their head will help to decrease the cooling unit size and weight).
I hate to say it but NASA did not spend any money on the space pen, both American and Russian space programs used grease pencils until the 'space pen' was produced.
A chap called Paul C. Fisher of the Fisher Pen Co. invested about 1million USD to develop the ball point with presurised ink at no cost to the USA / NASA.
Approx 400 pens were sold to NASA at 6USD each for the Apollo program, and they were also sold to the Russians fo r the Soyuz program.
The Fisher Pen Co. still makes and sells them.
A small cooler for the head, and maybe for under the armpits, would be cheaper and more easily distributed to all infantry that would not add much bulk or weight to their body armor. More junk makes it harder the the troops to fire and maneuver. These suits are better suited for armor rather than scout vehicles.
Peltiers are nice in theory but they have one major drawback not many know about. They are not efficient. I have a development peltier here (1" x 1", 128 junctions, 12v) and it will condense water on the cold side almost instantly. BUT... on the hot side, I have a heat sink and it's pumping out lots of heat - a lot more than what's being pulled from the cold side. It draws about 2 amps at 12v, so it's dissipating about 25 watts of heat in addition to what's being pumped from the cold side.
So peltiers actually work to generate heat in your vicinity, and have to be kept cooled. This peltier will try to hold about a 45 degree temp difference between the hot and cold side. So if the hot side heats up to say, 95 degrees due to inefficiency, it can only drop the cold side down to 50 degrees.
I've also heard people comment about "stacking" peltiers, to increase the cooling. (temp differential) This is great if they are not each producing 25 watts of heat. If you have two of them stacked, the "downwind" peltier is having to dump what... 35 or so watts of heat to its hot side, in addition to the 25 it's adding, so you're getting closer to 60 watts of heat being sent to the heat sink now, so you know it's going to get a lot hotter than with one peltier - which will raise your cold side temp which is what you were trying NOT to do. Stacking peltiers is rarely useful or productive.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
The term war is now only utilized for government policies with no chance of success, such as the "War on Drugs", the "War on Poverty" and the "War on Terror". And since we have no hope of winning, "war" is now a permanent state of affairs.
Soylent Green is peoplicious!
Now all American soldiers will look like Mr. Freeze and spew inane one-liners at Iraqis... "I'll put joo in da koolah!!"
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
Do what they do to deal with the heat. Instead of $5000 air conditioned suits, consider wearing a shawez kameez or other clothing that has been developed by the locals over a thousand years to deal with the climate.
Yeah, because the natives drive around in heavily armored humvees all day long, right? Personally, I know that sitting in a slow moving car, with the windows down, in the Texas sun in the middle of the summer is quite hot. What is it going to be like if you raise the temperature and decrease the ventilation?
I believe they will require some active cooling.
Americans I've known had trouble going without the undies. They just need something tight to squish the package no matter the weather.
I dont know about the arabic dress but the shalwar kameez is awesome and very versatile. People wear it in the morning jogging, soldiers wear it fighting, its a nightgown and a formal dress too. We used to just order 5x of em back home in different colors, and use the older ones for nightgowns etc. The tailor just had our measurements, no hassle, no hawaii shirts for friday or beach shorts or khakhis for casual days or tux for wedding days etc.
Getting back to history, when we (Mongols) had Iraq we couldnt last much long in there. We left some governors in cool areas and the rest left. Russia was much nicer. I dont expect the Americans to simply adjust to the 50C heat, well maybe the aussies and the texans. Certainly not the New Yorkers.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
I was going to let this thread go but this post kinda hit my buttons. Normally, I wouldnt reply to an anonymous coward, but I defend this individuals right to spew whatever he wants as an anonymous coward.
First -- 130 degrees? Where were they testing this thing, Michigan in August? It regularly hits 110-120 in that area of the world. Going on the 35 degree temp spread as mentioned in the article, we are talking 110 outside, 145+ inside... Hmmmmm
Second -- Can you deal with the personal discomfort of a field environment, temps regularly hitting triple digits (Im talking outdoors, not in a tactical vehicle, Tacticle vehicles, you will yearn for 90 after 10 mins on one of them), combat stress of random bullets flying around? This poster probabally has a nice and cushy desk job in a safe, air-conditioned office somewhere. If so, the cold is causing this person to forget something interesting:
When was the last time the USA has fought any type of conflict in a desert environment FOR A SUSTAINED PERIOD. Desert Shield/Storm was quick in the grand scheme of things. Most of our conflicts were in a tropical or continental type of environment (continental I mean grassy/forests... not desert or rainforest extremes). We have not had to deal with any type of sustained combat operations in a desert environment.
The stresses that are experienced by both our equipment and Troops out there have forced a major rethinking of strategy and equipping of our personnel to address these climatic extremes. I think AC units in these HMMWV's are a nifty idea, but not necessarially a good one due to the cost of maintaining one in a piece of equipment like this, in the environment that they serve in. Same extends to these vests, good idea in theory, lets see how well this equipment lasts when our fightin boys beat this equipment up. Yes, they take care of it because its their lifeline, but we will see how they handle the combat stresses endured in daily operations. I hope it works, because we need this type of gear and a conflict like this is allowing our best and brightest in this country to think outside of the box to provide us with equipment that will make life a little more tolerable.
So In closing anonymous coward; YOU enjoy your air-conditioning and cushy life... Maybe if you want an idea of how we feel, without stressing your self out too badly... Wear a 3 piece suit (Its about as heavy as the utility uniform). Drive to work when its nice and hot outside (80+ stateside should do the trick) with your windows cracked and your heat on full blast... You will get an idea of what we deal with. Oh, add the body armor, 3 weeks of stink from not taking a shower, oh and bullets, yes bullets flying at you randomly. You will have somewhat of a clue what is dealt with. Are these ideas perfect? Hell no... But it is a logical idea that cant hurt at this point. Robert Active Duty Marine Maintenance Management Specialist My comments do not reflect that of the US Government or Marine Corps. Just one little guy's random thoughts based on my version of reality, it may or may not match up with yours.
And play baseball.
And are now a democracy, not an autocratic empire with a warrior caste that fought to the death, including by suicide attacks.
And them Germans. They've got themselves a democracy, also. Hell, they haven't even invaded France since Russian tanks poured into Berlin and US tanks poured over the Rhine.
Oh, both places still have US troops deployed in them. 60+ years after the murderous dictators were deposed.
Does this mean we can overclock our soldiers?
I am a doctor and because I happen to live in one of the few last european retard countries that still has moronic stuff like obligatory military service, I had to work in a small military hospital.
...) trapped in such small confined space, overheating happens very easily.
It was summer, it was *very* hot (unussual for this country).
A few of the young soldiers collapsed because of Hyperthermia during exercices in tanks.
Not only was the weather hot, but it was even hotter inside the tank (witch is under direct sun, doesn't radiate a lot and doesn't have large openings, to lower risk of detection. These old models don't have AC). With a lot of people wearing a huge amount of clothing and equipment (uniform, armor, harness,
Also I don't even mention how some chiefs succeded to fuck up the water supply managment during long marching exercises.
So : Yes, given such problems with heat, this kind of technology is welcome. Although I'm sure some officiers can still manage to find a way to fuckup and bring more overheated soldiers to the hospital.
About the Air Conditionning :
I *think* (it's just quick guestimation) the worst effects of the AC are :
- because, obviously, they only work inside, when one is going from one place to another, one is constantly alternating hot/freezing environnements. Which isn't good.
- AC functions by convection (cold air circulation). So you don't get only cold air, but you got actually *cold wind*, which can freeze much more. 18C isn't a cold temperature. But, stong wind blowing at 18C can cool you a lot (surface skin temperature is somewhere near 30C +/- 5C. Don't remember more exact figures), specially if you aren't properly dressed (as everyone dresses on hot days).
- Near the "wind source", the temperature can be even lower. You can get harmed (or at least sick) if you fall asleep near the AC source. (The exact same opposite as falling asleap to close to the heat source in winter)
That's why we european have to always take sweatshirts when we travel in the USA, to avoid catching cold because of the strong A/C inside.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
If they did, they would be much COOLER. If you read the article, you'd know standard air conditioning is already used, and gets up to 95F degrees at most. Outside tempuratures are much higer.
If you can handle outside tempuratures for long periods of time, you can handle sitting in a humvee.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
The flak jacket itself will not stop a rifle round (I'm not entirely sure about a handgun round), however when worn with a "trauma plate" it will. The plates are steel -- or more recently, some sort of ceramic 'Chobham' composite -- inserts that fit into pockets over the center of the chest and back. The steel ones at least are no fun at all, they're very heavy and I doubt that most guys who aren't really expecting to get shot at wear them. The ceramic ones I've heard are a big improvement but I don't know how widely distributed they are, or what people think of them.
The kevlar helmet is supposedly able to stop a 7.62mm rifle round, although I'm not sure at exactly what distance. It does not stop the 5.56mm round fired by the M-16. In fact the ammunition in the M-16 was designed specifically to penetrate the kevlar, among other things (it has a steel core as opposed to the older solid lead bullets).
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
You have, apparently, not thought this through.
Why does water cool people down? Because heat is convected from the human body into the water, which then evaporates. This disipates the heat energy.
Have you ever lived in a hot, dry climate? Anything short of water cooling of some sort will NOT cool them down at a fast enough rate. They have ambient dry heat indexes of 120F on a regular, daily basis over there. Have you ever gotten into a vehicle during the middle of the summer, and the steering wheel is too hot to touch? You'll immediately roll the window down because it's almost too hot to breath. It rarely gets above 105F in the US. Now, think of being in an armored vehicle, with the motor running, and the heat on, with the windows down, wearing a combat pack, long clothing, boots, gloves, and a helmet - and with 5 other men in the vehicle with you. THAT is the kind of heat they are in over there.
Look at a photo from Iraq of our troops. Notice how everyone is wearing gloves? There's a reason for that: their guns and other gear are too hot to touch.
The only way they could really do it would be with water of some sort. The only practical way to do it is to drink it, as pouring it on yourself or your clothing will a) get you dirty - really dirty - really quickly, b) do little, as it will evaporate too quickly, c) waste valuable water, and d) decrease their agility and ability to move quickly.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Flack != Bullet-proof;
.223 caliber (M16) because, it is made around articulated ceramic/steel plates with a touch of Kevlar fabric to hold it together. My Korean war era flack vests are rated to stop a .50 caliber [from ~100 meters] round (although those are steel), and my lighter composite vests from Vietnam are rated for close range 7.62 NATO (and I'm sure current generation vests are better).
.223 caliber rounds, they are not steel cored, although the soviet 7.62 NATO rounds were... the reason they penetrate armor so well is their profile, a 53 grain .223 caliber bullet (about the weight of a hollow point 9mm) is long and skinny like a javelin with the impact surface remarkably similar to a .22 caliber round (squirrel/small game munitions). The Small striking surface increases the pressure exerted per square inch creating a higher probability of penetration (fun experiment, buy a Kevlar vest and see if it stops a sharp knife [no, not while it's on someone of course]).
A bullet proof jacket is normally made exclusively from layered fabric with an optional flack plate (modern use, older bullet-proof armor was made from solid plate).
A flack jacket will indeed stop a 7.62 NATO (AK-47) round, as well as a
As for the
The Geek in Black
I know my BCD's (when I'm Sober)
And the idea that American soldiers are going to start blending in with native populations is of course completely ludicrous. Not so say it couldn't happen in the far future, but it's certainly not happening now, give me a break.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
Eventually the individual solders will drift out of the command structure and find that they have to make a seperate peace with the local people.
Oh yeah, bound to. I mean, it's simply so much easier to just sorta 'drift out of the command structure', desert, change skin color, learn Arabic, and become an Iraqi than it is to finish your tour and go home.
You may not be aware of this, but as things currently stand:
--The US Army, as a rule, frowns on soldiers who 'drift out of the command structure'.
--Iraq, as a rule, does not appear to offer an easy path to a happy and secure life to deserters from occupying armies.
I agree, though, that if the parent post's sheer naievete could be weaponized, it would be deadly enough to force any of these circumstances to change.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
"I don't think 95 degrees is cool enough for any kind of clothing."
Well, people here in Miami are *nearly* naked, but we keep that mostly to our beaches and clubs.
I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this.
.50 BMG? That's ridiculous. There isn't any type of personal body armor that will stop a 50-cal, even today (unless you consider an armored vehicle a form of personal body armor).
I don't know what kind of "flack jacket" you're talking about that's comprised of "rticulated ceramic/steel plates with a touch of Kevlar fabric to hold it together" but it's nothing that I've ever seen. And a flak jacket from the Korean war, that was rated to stop a
I'll refer you over to the Body Armor page at Globalsecurity.org. "The [pre-Interceptor] "flak jacket," constructed of ballistic nylon, provided protection primarily from munitions fragments and was ineffective against most pistol and rifle threats. These vests also were very cumbersome and bulky and were restricted primarily to military use." This adequately describes the vests used up through Vietnam and which were even issued during the onset of the current war in Iraq. On the Interceptor system, which is current issue, "The outer tactical vest consists of a Kevlar weave that's very fine and will stop 9mm pistol rounds. Webbing on the front and back of the vest permits attaching such equipment as grenades, walkie-talkies and pistols. The Small Arms Protective Insert (SAPI) is made of a boron carbide ceramic with a spectra shield backing that's an extremely hard material. It stops, shatters and catches any fragments up to a 7.62 mm round with a muzzle velocity of 2,750 feet per second."
The old, Vietnam-era vest would not stop a 7.62mm rifle round. Whether it would stop a 9mm handgun round I'm not sure, but there are plenty of reports of guys being killed by being shot through the flak vest. It was never intended to stop aimed rifle fire. And it certainly wasn't made from hinged solid plate! Here's a page with a photo. It was made primarily of nylon.
That the new armor system -- with plates -- can reliably stop rifle rounds is a big deal. It was not true before; I do not believe there was a personal armoring system available to the average troops in any war before this one, that would stop bullets. The WWII, Korea, and Vietnam "flak jackets" were exactly that -- to stop flak, that is, fragments produced by things exploding.
You are also mistaken about the 5.56mm round. It does too have a steel penetrator. Nonwithstanding my personal experience (fire one through several layers of 1/4" mild steel plate separated by a few inches and you can see the copper jacket and lead surround strip off, and the steel core continue), there are an abundance of references on the net. The current issue is called the M885 Ball round, it is a 62 grain bullet with a full copper jacket and lead surrounding a cylindrical steel core. It's commonly referred to as "Green tip" because the tips of the bullets are painted green to differentiate them from the older, solid-lead M193 round, which has no coloring on the tips.
You can get quite an argument going with people familiar with terminal ballistics by asking about whether the wound profile of the new M855 bullets (they're quite a bit messier than the old solid lead ones) are due to the bullets 'tumbling,' or breaking apart on impact, but it's quite well known that they have a steel penetrator, and that this was introduced principally to defeat new types of body armor. The Russians have a comparable cartridge, for similar reasons. (Best reference: http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.htm l)
Also read:
http://www.geocities.com/odjobman/r1r42.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."