Slashdot Mirror
U.S. Army Testing Personal Cooling Suits
DJ BenBen writes to tell us that they Army is currently testing some 500 liquid cooled vests with Humvee crews in Iraq. From the article: "The Humvees with add-on armor were fitted with air conditioners after TARDEC engineers in Warren, Mich., were given the requirement to figure out how Soldiers in armored vehicles could be kept cool under the desert sun. Some of the same engineers had designed the add-on armor kits for the M-998 and M-1025 Humvees in theater. But with the extra armor and doors closed, temperatures inside the vehicles could reportedly reach more than 130 degrees. 'It's like putting somebody in a toaster oven on low heat,' said Charlie Bussee, an engineer at TARDEC."
Is it such a good idea to 'Slashdot' a MILITARY website?
Lets hope they don't hit back....
DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
And exactly why would you ask scientists and engineers in MICHIGAN to test the effect of a DESERT environment? Utah I could understand. Or Nevada. Or Arizona. Or New Mexico. But Michigan?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
That could be a scare for some troops.
I'm not a doctor, but is it good for soldiers' health to be hot and cold simultaneously? I have heard that having air conditioning and heating on is not healthy, so what about this?
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
I have a lot of friends in Iraq right now and they tell me that the Iraqi's are 100% convienced that the US already has air conditioned boxers, briefs, panties and bras... how else can they move around in that heat!
Oh please. A crass advert wrapped up in sentimental twallop. What the hell has this got to do with "bringing our troops home"?
-- Trinity in high heels carrying a whip: The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism
I was a little nipper when the Space Race was in full swing.
In the early '70s, Popular Science ran an article by a stuff writer who tried out one of the water-cooled undergarments worn by astronauts during "EVA."
The garment was resembled full-length underwear, laced with yards and yards of plastic tubing. The cooling source was a bag of ice worn on the hip. Kind of like a fanny pack.
The writer put on the suit, dressed normally, and went for a walk around Manhattan on a stinking hot day. One of the few details I remember: A picture of him loading up the ice bag at a bar.
of them being deployed? Even if all the tests go as planned, what are the chances the government is going buy one for every member of the military in Iraq?
"A rapid-release system allows Soldiers to quickly disconnect the hoses so they can jump out of the vehicle and keep the vests on."
Let's just hope that the water circulating through the vest is sucked out by the release system, or else that once-was-cold water is going to turn very hot and very heavy, RSN.
http://www.asti-usa.com
Besides, it's a waste of money. Just put a forty gallon beer keg in the back of the Humvee, and believe me the desert heat won't be a problem at all.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Not to mention, Helicopter pilots have had this system for a while. Plus it's not that cool; it's not portable.
By chance is it made of black snakeskin, cover your head, and keep you cool despite looking really, well hot?
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
...of course having to carry around that 4 foot tall bong is a real bitch!
It's like putting somebody in a toaster oven on low heat
Boy, but you should see them complain when it's on high!
Sure, these vests might work great while in-vehicle. But they're worn under-armor; what happens when a soldier has to exit the vehicle quickly? Sure, the hoses are quick-release, but now he's got yet another layer of clothing on in the desert heat, a layer that probably doesn't help his maneuverability. Perhaps there's a better solution.
When you think about it, these kinds of thing may very well be the early precursors to the Space Infantry Suits... Soon the US will be declaring war on anything that isn't from earth..
What it takes to get them home safely: stop declaring war on people. :P
Civilian racing versions usually feature a small pump inside of a water reservoir in an ice cooler. The pump runs off the car's 12VDC system. The rest of the cooler is filled with ice, to keep the water cold.
You can get one right here for $320 (for a limited time.) Perhaps the military should just buy them from those guys, if they can come up with 40,000 of them or so :)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I live in São Paulo. In the summer, when it isn't raining (and sometimes even when it is raining) it gets frickin' hot. When I didn't have a car (and for the short time when I had a car without air conditioning) and had to visit customers wearing at least "business casual-plus" clothes and sometimes a suit and tie during the summer, my mind naturally turned to ways to keep myself cool so I wouldn't arrive all sweaty and wrinkled at the customer sites.
I had the idea of a personal cooling unit, with a box (maybe carried in a briefcase) that would cool some liquid (water maybe) and pump it through tubes that I would be wearing to cool strategic regions of my body (major arteries and possibly veins near the skin seemed like good places to have the tubes passing). I had this amazing mental image of me walking down the Avenida Paulista (a famous major avenue in the city) in the blazing sun on the hottest day of the year, wearing a black wool suit and looking cool and comfortable while people around me in shorts, sleeveless shirts and sandals were panting and bathed in sweat.
The technical issues seemed tough to master, especially the question of how I would cool the water (or other liquid). Then it occurred to me that I could just have a reservoir filled with as much ice as it could hold, and then cold water filling the remaining space. A simple battery-operated pump would pump the water through aquarium tubing to the aforementioned strategic points and then back to the reservoir for heat exchange with the ice and cooler water. This version would be able to provide cooling for a much shorter time than the one with a portable refrigeration unit, but one could always refill the reservoir with ice and water, and it would be a lot easier to build and maintain. I would be able to build it from readily available (and inexpensive) components. Not to mention that I wouldn't have the problem of powering a portable refrigeration unit. This one seemed doable, but I ended up buying a car with air conditioning before I got around to making my personal cooling unit, and my interest in actually completing the project waned.
"It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
RTFA much? The suits plug into the Humvee's AC system. Y'know, with a compressor and a heat exchanger and all that.
Actually, we don't usually declare wars; we just wage them.
military spending is such a waste. I can't remember the last time i used something developed by the military. I think the net would be a better place without this kind of research.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
I don't know if this is such a good idea..when I was in Afghanistan we often were in humvees and they were already crammed as it is. I think anything like this would just add to the chaos that is inside the humvee. Although it is a step in the right direction It just dosn't seem smart. Its hard to get out of a humvee when you plan to, and I can't imagine how bad this might add to any reaction to contact or IED. The Ac in humvees right now is not too bad, its just the fact that it overheats the engine and you end up having to shut it off is what sucks. Then again, its always cool up top on the turret...
Support Objectivism and the United States,
Ayn Rand
This is interesting, but I will be really excited when we have our own Still-Suits ala Dune. I mean, I would think we have the technology to make still-suits a reality.
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
WTF is wrong with air conditioning?
Seems to me that if they're going to spend all this time adding a liquid cooling system to the vehicle, they could just add some AC device instead.
k
This too, will end.
Ummm... This sounds pretty ridiculous to those of us who live in the desert. Around here, when it's 125F degrees in the shade, everyone still works outside, and many in direct sunlight. I *never* even turn on my car's air conditioner (though admitedly, most people do).
Can someone fill me in as to why Iraq is so different that people can't work in tempuratures even lower than people in So. California/Arizona/Nevada are used-to?
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
It coud be done with just a racing 'coolsuit'. Plus. extra geek points if instead of a large cooler of ice, you get a small cooler with a Peltier device! http://www.hackaday.com/entry/1234000083048949/
I am going on a limg here and say your not wearing T-shirt, long pants, long sleeves, helmet, flak jacket,canteen, side arm, automatic weaponn, ammo, etc . . .
All while looking for people trying to kill you.
" I *never* even turn on my car's air conditioner (though admitedly, most people do)."
yeah, well your a kook.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Of course, they could just buy a Bushmaster.
"Suppose they gave a war, and nobody came? Why then, the war would come to you!" - Bertolt Brecht
I think you meant to say happy holiday!
;)
Nah, just kidding. I don't actually give a shit what it's called.
Happy holiday!
...the vehicles could reportedly reach more than 130 degrees. 'It's like putting somebody in a toaster oven on low heat,...
OK, so I have the temperature on the Fahrenheit scale and on the "kitchen appliances" scale. Now, how about a SI unit like, say, degrees Celcius (or Kelvin, why not)?
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
Okay, yes, a coolsuit isn't news for some. What I take issue with is that you seem to have taken the same, unfortunate belief that so many smart people fall into. Military development isn't cheap, and because all the exact details are rarely given out to the public, it's assumed to be mostly waste. While this may be true in some cases, it's not the norm. Believe it or not, the Army does have a limited budget and actually cares about researching many areas simultaneously; thus they do care about waste.
Anyway, there's always a difference between a commercial technology and a military one. Take this suit for example. How many times do you think racecar drivers get shot at while in their cars? If a bullet penetrates through, what will the results be? If there is fluid leakage, will it harm internal tissue or poison the blood stream, or is it so cold that muscles will tense up? If there are wires (and there are), could those short out and cause electrical damage to the wearer? If the system becomes non-functioning, what could happen that would prevent the wearer from continuing the mission? Lastly, what do the soldiers that will be issued this device think about it? You know, the guys that have been there, and will be going back? Yep, the Army gets everyone's input (even privates), and that's a huge benefit mostly unique to our military.
As someone that's in the Army, I can tell you that we don't get issued ANYTHING unless the leadership is confident that it will benefit our mission. That's not a bad thing.
Long, cute, or funny Sigs are just another form of over compensation, used by geeks, nerdz, etc.
I can think of 3,000 or so people who might disagree with this, if they could.
- AJ
Well since the US hasn't declared war since 1942, I'd say that they have pretty much stopped.
It's much more convenient to have conflicts instead, since you don't have to abide by all those pesky international rules.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
All these posts and not one single mention of Battletech?? What is Slashdot coming to?
My Sysadmin Blog
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Ducks#Relatio
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/football/nc
http://www.fanblogs.com/pac10/004233.php
Some sources say that they use some sort of liquid coolant, which can also be heated, while others say compressed air is used. Still, the point is that the Ducks are better equipped than the Army.
You tell me how much pencil shavings and graphite powder you'd like in your lungs and then tell me that the pen was such a bad idea. Snopes is your friend.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
Oh boy :-( Don't tell me you are trying to tie 9/11 to Iraq. Dubya/Dick..that you?
"reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
And I can think of 30,000 or so people who might agree with it, if they could. Your point?
Why don't they just fix the air conditioning in the HumVee in the first place.
It costs a buck-oh-five.
Then again - a tank's crew mission is usually to stay in the tank while a humvee crew might have a need to move around more easely (but maybe just cooling their head will help to decrease the cooling unit size and weight).
I hate to say it but NASA did not spend any money on the space pen, both American and Russian space programs used grease pencils until the 'space pen' was produced.
A chap called Paul C. Fisher of the Fisher Pen Co. invested about 1million USD to develop the ball point with presurised ink at no cost to the USA / NASA.
Approx 400 pens were sold to NASA at 6USD each for the Apollo program, and they were also sold to the Russians fo r the Soyuz program.
The Fisher Pen Co. still makes and sells them.
A small cooler for the head, and maybe for under the armpits, would be cheaper and more easily distributed to all infantry that would not add much bulk or weight to their body armor. More junk makes it harder the the troops to fire and maneuver. These suits are better suited for armor rather than scout vehicles.
Excuse me? Pencil "shaver" that wets the pencil and has slight influx of air and filter on the other end and done. I can build one with what I have laying around.
:)
But even without the influx I can just spit on it and shave it and I guarantee no tiny particles will be in the air
Come on, it doesn't take millions of dollars dude.
Also as you're reading this, you're breathing in pieces of death skin, microbes and small particles of garbage (also known as dust) and ah yea, also small living insects... How about throwing few million dollars on that? Or not, because actually we're just ok with it.
Sooner or later, the Americans in Iraq will do what all the other people who have invaded Iraq over the past three thousand years have done. Which is, go native.
20 million people live in Iraq all year round all their lives. Do what they do to deal with the heat. Instead of $5000 air conditioned suits, consider wearing a shawez kameez or other clothing that has been developed by the locals over a thousand years to deal with the climate. Since the Americans are going to be there for a long time, they may as well start making an effort to blend in.
Iraq has been invaded countless times in its history. After a few years the invaders either move on to someplace with better weather or they start the long process of becoming just another minority in Iraq. The Americans are really any different. Eventually the individual solders will drift out of the command structure and find that they have to make a seperate peace with the local people. Dressing like them is a good start.
Come on, it doesn't take millions of dollars dude.
neither did the pen. RTF snopes article.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
Decent sidearm? IIRC, officers can chose the old standby.45 cal as well as the 9mm. Niether one is a slouch of a firearm. The .223 (5.56mmm) round was used in the M-16 to keep the recoil low and prevent the muzzle walking up and wasting ammo shot over the head of the target. With the invention of body armor the 223 round isn't going to do any damage unless it is a lucky shot.
Too bad they can't use the captured AK's, those are all 7.63mm, and look at all the free ammo just lying around all over the world.
The term war is now only utilized for government policies with no chance of success, such as the "War on Drugs", the "War on Poverty" and the "War on Terror". And since we have no hope of winning, "war" is now a permanent state of affairs.
Soylent Green is peoplicious!
Thanks for the clarification. I suspected it's not exactly like this, but it still is one great (pseudo)example of what is happening with the military equipment.
Honestly - suits are heavy and hot? Solution? Not fix suits/make them lighter or anything (I mean has/can anybody built stats of whether wearing so much "protection" disabling swift action and maneuvres can do more harm than help a soldier?).
Instead plaster more technology on them. Which will create problems on its own so what's next? Special robotic enhancements to the soldier's legs and arms so he can move better? Then if he runs out of batteries have accumulator attached on him?
I know I'm being ridiculous but I'm proving a point. You can't just plaster layers and layers of tech trying to solve what the previous layer did. At the end only one wins: those damn firms coming up with absurd inventions to pitch to the military.
There are actualy quite a few good reasons for that investment. Pens will draw a lot more than pencils, by weight. And weight is everything when you are delivering groceries to orbit.
Also, pencils must be sharpened. NASA is crazy about anything that makes a mess. Keeping a capsule clean in zero g is very hard to do - dust and crud can gather on ALL SURFACES including the "ceiling". And there's a lot of delicate equipment up there. Pencil shavings are not something NASA wants to have to deal with. (it also increases the amount of trash generated, and all garbage has to be hauled back to earth, it cannot simply be jettisoned) I can just imagine their reaction to eraser-crumbs.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Now all American soldiers will look like Mr. Freeze and spew inane one-liners at Iraqis... "I'll put joo in da koolah!!"
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
A. invested about 1million USD to develop the ball point
B. 400 pens were sold to NASA at 6USD each
Ouch..
well, there are automatic pencils (have one here) where you just push a button and it reveals more of the graphite. This avoid the weight/trash problem.
And there are oilier but still hard sticks of graphite (wow that'd look odd out of context), say something between pastel and a pencil, to avoid the dust problem.
So uhmm.. and anyway not to get a lot off topic on this whole thing, but.. Fisher spent a million (officially) on those and then sold few hundred of 'em for a couple of bucks? Talk about poor ROI.
And can it take the opening shock of a parachute, impact with the ground, does it make my already heavy as f*** load heavier, and can it take abuse from privates in the infantry? Let me tell you, almost nothing can withstand the latter. We break everything.
Theyre even cheaper on the planet Dune.
IIRC it recycles your own waste. Great message to send to the troops!
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
I was going to let this thread go but this post kinda hit my buttons. Normally, I wouldnt reply to an anonymous coward, but I defend this individuals right to spew whatever he wants as an anonymous coward.
First -- 130 degrees? Where were they testing this thing, Michigan in August? It regularly hits 110-120 in that area of the world. Going on the 35 degree temp spread as mentioned in the article, we are talking 110 outside, 145+ inside... Hmmmmm
Second -- Can you deal with the personal discomfort of a field environment, temps regularly hitting triple digits (Im talking outdoors, not in a tactical vehicle, Tacticle vehicles, you will yearn for 90 after 10 mins on one of them), combat stress of random bullets flying around? This poster probabally has a nice and cushy desk job in a safe, air-conditioned office somewhere. If so, the cold is causing this person to forget something interesting:
When was the last time the USA has fought any type of conflict in a desert environment FOR A SUSTAINED PERIOD. Desert Shield/Storm was quick in the grand scheme of things. Most of our conflicts were in a tropical or continental type of environment (continental I mean grassy/forests... not desert or rainforest extremes). We have not had to deal with any type of sustained combat operations in a desert environment.
The stresses that are experienced by both our equipment and Troops out there have forced a major rethinking of strategy and equipping of our personnel to address these climatic extremes. I think AC units in these HMMWV's are a nifty idea, but not necessarially a good one due to the cost of maintaining one in a piece of equipment like this, in the environment that they serve in. Same extends to these vests, good idea in theory, lets see how well this equipment lasts when our fightin boys beat this equipment up. Yes, they take care of it because its their lifeline, but we will see how they handle the combat stresses endured in daily operations. I hope it works, because we need this type of gear and a conflict like this is allowing our best and brightest in this country to think outside of the box to provide us with equipment that will make life a little more tolerable.
So In closing anonymous coward; YOU enjoy your air-conditioning and cushy life... Maybe if you want an idea of how we feel, without stressing your self out too badly... Wear a 3 piece suit (Its about as heavy as the utility uniform). Drive to work when its nice and hot outside (80+ stateside should do the trick) with your windows cracked and your heat on full blast... You will get an idea of what we deal with. Oh, add the body armor, 3 weeks of stink from not taking a shower, oh and bullets, yes bullets flying at you randomly. You will have somewhat of a clue what is dealt with. Are these ideas perfect? Hell no... But it is a logical idea that cant hurt at this point. Robert Active Duty Marine Maintenance Management Specialist My comments do not reflect that of the US Government or Marine Corps. Just one little guy's random thoughts based on my version of reality, it may or may not match up with yours.
And play baseball.
And are now a democracy, not an autocratic empire with a warrior caste that fought to the death, including by suicide attacks.
And them Germans. They've got themselves a democracy, also. Hell, they haven't even invaded France since Russian tanks poured into Berlin and US tanks poured over the Rhine.
Oh, both places still have US troops deployed in them. 60+ years after the murderous dictators were deposed.
A fleet of Asimo's fully armed and ARMORED. Bring in the Droids. Why put human life through that.
Does this mean we can overclock our soldiers?
I am a doctor and because I happen to live in one of the few last european retard countries that still has moronic stuff like obligatory military service, I had to work in a small military hospital.
...) trapped in such small confined space, overheating happens very easily.
It was summer, it was *very* hot (unussual for this country).
A few of the young soldiers collapsed because of Hyperthermia during exercices in tanks.
Not only was the weather hot, but it was even hotter inside the tank (witch is under direct sun, doesn't radiate a lot and doesn't have large openings, to lower risk of detection. These old models don't have AC). With a lot of people wearing a huge amount of clothing and equipment (uniform, armor, harness,
Also I don't even mention how some chiefs succeded to fuck up the water supply managment during long marching exercises.
So : Yes, given such problems with heat, this kind of technology is welcome. Although I'm sure some officiers can still manage to find a way to fuckup and bring more overheated soldiers to the hospital.
About the Air Conditionning :
I *think* (it's just quick guestimation) the worst effects of the AC are :
- because, obviously, they only work inside, when one is going from one place to another, one is constantly alternating hot/freezing environnements. Which isn't good.
- AC functions by convection (cold air circulation). So you don't get only cold air, but you got actually *cold wind*, which can freeze much more. 18C isn't a cold temperature. But, stong wind blowing at 18C can cool you a lot (surface skin temperature is somewhere near 30C +/- 5C. Don't remember more exact figures), specially if you aren't properly dressed (as everyone dresses on hot days).
- Near the "wind source", the temperature can be even lower. You can get harmed (or at least sick) if you fall asleep near the AC source. (The exact same opposite as falling asleap to close to the heat source in winter)
That's why we european have to always take sweatshirts when we travel in the USA, to avoid catching cold because of the strong A/C inside.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
There is a company called bioCOOL that makes similar cooling suits.
In my humble opinion, the bioCOOL suits are better.
One more thing to help put the TARD in TARDEC. *sigh*
Finally. Someone with direct experience to speak to the environment these are meant for. Then again, what else is /. for if not to make wild assumptions based mostly on groupthink?
Here is a link to a story on the bioCOOL company
Goto:
http://www.sarta.org/default/index.cfm
And click on the "Spacesuit Designer Aims To Take Some Of Heat Out Of Military Life" link.
Yea, not all of us overclockers can remember what temperature our cpu is at.
ok, actually I get worried when mine hits 50. This actually relieves me abit.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
if they can spend money on air conditioning/ why not spend armor for the jeep
They could make them smaller, portable, released for civilians, not a bigallion dollars, and maybe throw in some designer colors.
Then I would consider getting one to wear in my own car.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
A great big HOORAH! from a fellow slashdotter in Afghanistan.
Non tam praeclarum est scire Latine, quam turpe nescire
-- Cicero
For what it's worth this isn't all that new.
a ctsheets/f05_e.html
a ctsheets/f05_e.html
Canadian helicopter crews used cooling suits in the first gulf war... The suits were jury rigged together by Defence Research and Development of Canada (DRDC) in under a couple of weeks and allowed flight crews to remain in the air for longer periods...
See the DRDC website at:
http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/publications/f
The Shearwater Aviation Museam in Halifax has one of the suits on display:
http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/publications/f
Suits are heavy and hot because they're the best armor protection the troops can reasonably carry around. If you can come up with a better material the suits will still be just as heavy and hot, but they'll be able to stop higher power bullets. You can never really have enough protection; you carry as much armor as you can get away with.
The current conflict in Iraq is the first time troops could carry enough armor to stop a standard military rifle bullet, and then only if it hits one of the ceramic inserts secreted around the vest. There are lots of impact angles and surfaces that won't stop a rifle bullet - we have a long way to go before we can start thinking less weight is a good tradeoff for protection.
At the end only one wins: those damn firms coming up with absurd inventions to pitch to the military.
Now this is just pure ignorance. I would suggest you spend a little more time on milblogs and less on slashdot if you want to understand what's really going on here. There's a reason this war has a much, much lower casualty rate than previos wars.
The US Army will never ever wear iraqi clothes!
Why?
Because this will show the US citizen and polticans:
- the #1 viagra consuming country in the world needs more money to spend to push climate change all over the world.
- Islam superior to konservative US christianity because weather is against liberators.
- Super duper expensive high tech cooling gear only second place after traditional desert clothing
- Wearing the same clothes means fraternisation ==> Fraternisation is forbidden for army personel except in Guantanamo.
- it's amazing you are still reading my post
- why?
- okay nothing more to see move on.
- hey you are still here!
- go away or I tell the DHS you are reading slashdot
Grundgesetz * 23. Mai 1949 - 30. November 2007 - http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/
That's because you don't have full gears on. Go to a surplus store and slap all the gulf war tac gears on and try to drive with knee pads, and steer with elbow pads. Then tell me it isn't hot wherever you were.
The M-1 (I presume you mean Abrams tank) is fine. It's massively oversized, but if you can get it to the field of battle, the survivability is very appreciated.
But forget that, we have had some incredible tools for our forces. Like the M2 machine gun.
John Browning was a brilliant man. The 1911 is 100 years old now, and still an incredible piece of work. And you can own one (well, a replica) for a very affordable price. Any engineer could learn a lot from a study of this invention. (And I don't even own any guns)
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Flack != Bullet-proof;
.223 caliber (M16) because, it is made around articulated ceramic/steel plates with a touch of Kevlar fabric to hold it together. My Korean war era flack vests are rated to stop a .50 caliber [from ~100 meters] round (although those are steel), and my lighter composite vests from Vietnam are rated for close range 7.62 NATO (and I'm sure current generation vests are better).
.223 caliber rounds, they are not steel cored, although the soviet 7.62 NATO rounds were... the reason they penetrate armor so well is their profile, a 53 grain .223 caliber bullet (about the weight of a hollow point 9mm) is long and skinny like a javelin with the impact surface remarkably similar to a .22 caliber round (squirrel/small game munitions). The Small striking surface increases the pressure exerted per square inch creating a higher probability of penetration (fun experiment, buy a Kevlar vest and see if it stops a sharp knife [no, not while it's on someone of course]).
A bullet proof jacket is normally made exclusively from layered fabric with an optional flack plate (modern use, older bullet-proof armor was made from solid plate).
A flack jacket will indeed stop a 7.62 NATO (AK-47) round, as well as a
As for the
The Geek in Black
I know my BCD's (when I'm Sober)
Fuck you and fuck off, asshole. My best friend's little brother was killed in the north tower and I don't appreciate you presuming to speak for him, especially when I know where he would stand politically on issues like these, and believe me, that's nowhere near flag-waving rednecks like you.
How about cooling vests while wearing personal protective equipmentt for chem warfare? I've thought about fashioning medical cooling packs into a vest to wear underneath my chem warfare suit. You wouldn't believe how hot those suits get when trying to do any kind of work, like lifting patients on a litter. And don't get me started on the 'breathing through a straw' while wearing the gas mask!
In this war less innocent people died than in previous wars. Yea well, more than from all suicide bombers in Iraq summed, but what the hell, stats can always be twisted to look good for either side.
Eventually the individual solders will drift out of the command structure and find that they have to make a seperate peace with the local people.
Oh yeah, bound to. I mean, it's simply so much easier to just sorta 'drift out of the command structure', desert, change skin color, learn Arabic, and become an Iraqi than it is to finish your tour and go home.
You may not be aware of this, but as things currently stand:
--The US Army, as a rule, frowns on soldiers who 'drift out of the command structure'.
--Iraq, as a rule, does not appear to offer an easy path to a happy and secure life to deserters from occupying armies.
I agree, though, that if the parent post's sheer naievete could be weaponized, it would be deadly enough to force any of these circumstances to change.
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
The weather is rather pleasant right now in Baghdad.
I used to think that US forces were happless victims, poor simple folk who only wanted an education and a job.
But after reading numerous accounts and opinions by US soldiers on message boards and such, I have come to the opinion, that US soldiers are merely willing mercenaries -blood thirsty ones at that.
Therefore, I no longer feel bad when I hear US soldiers have been horribly blown up or injured in Iraq. They are occupiers, they are there killing and murdering Iraqis, they shouldn't be there.
Feeling hot while on a patrol? Sucks to be you.
Being shot at all the time? You asked for it.
Getting blown to ragged chuncks of flesh getting to you? Well that's just too bad!
Of course the bad guys never want to think they are the bad guys. But face it, the US army is being the Nazis right now and anything they have coming to them, they've been asking for.
Some say he is made with ascii, others that he is eyeballed daily by millions. All we know is, he is known as the Sig
I've carried the 9mm (USAF) in a combat zone and it's the source of many jokes. It is a weak round with limited stopping or penetrating power. I am also not given the option to use/carry any other weapon on duty. In Desert Storm, many USAF pilots brought their own more powerful weapons with them because the 9mm round sucks, but they've tightened down the rules since then.
.40 cal. It has the exact same dimensions as the 9mm but the .40cal round has a lot more stopping power. But I wouldn't be allowed to take it with me to Iraq. Special forces and other troops with specific requirements are authorized alternative weapons, but for the average troop you get an M-16 variant or the 9mm Beretta.
I own the same beretta used by the military, but chambered in
I know someone who jokes that the only thing the 9mm is good for is convincing someone nearby to give up their M-16 (haha). Realistically, the usual plan is if they're stuck with only the 9mm pistol for some reason, just keep it in the holster because it identifies them as an officer, and pick up whatever else gets dropped by the first casualties. If that means picking up an AK or whatever the enemy is using, that's fine too.
I don't think they will *require* active cooling but I am sure they'll be grateful. There have been armoured vehicles in Iraq /other desert regions before so you don't *need* cooling, but I am sure it makes the ambient temperature less hellish Rolls Royces Armoured cars in Egypt, Persia and the Palestine, the Desert Rats faced the Africa Korps for a few years in North Africa, and the Six Days War to name a few.
Why are you using 130 degrees. The rest of the developed world uses the Celcius degree calibration, but I suppose that the USA is still undeveloped, nay medieval, they still use rendtion or torture on their enemies or supposed enemies. The Imperial system, only remains in USA - units and torture.
Why is Europe in the center of their top banner ? /me going to buy a good life insurance :p
In other news, parts of the cooling suits had to be covered up with digital effects.
On se Internetz nobody noes your German.
I still wait for martial law to be declared. That would make anti-$sys$liberty terror legislation much easier. Also, there haven't been enough political schenanigans over there lately. Europe demands entertainment! ;)
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
Actually, if you had read the original prospect from Hasbro you'd know that the suits plug into the GI Joe(TM) Desert Warfare(TM) Humvee(TM), which has a reservoir for tap water, keeping it cool for up to five minutes.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
You are a dumbass. 130 + in full combat gear is not "uncomfortable", it is potentially hazzardous. We're not talking about installing fucking lazy boy recliners in the trucks, we're talking about making sure these people don't become heat casualties before ever reaching the fight. And just for the record, I served 11 years, and did my tour in Iraq in GW 1, so yes, I do know WTF I'm talking about from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, not just some bullshit I got from CNN or the Internet.
I think it's a cultural thing. Then again, boxers are becoming more popular with current generations. Personally, I like having something extra for the sake of cleanliness. Easier to wash 7 sets of underwear and one set of jeans each week than 7 sets of jeans. I toy with the no underwear bit when in my kilt, but one has to be careful there so as not to give unintentional previews of the wares. *wry grin* Not to mention that a choice breeze when there's kids around could result in me being charged as a registered sex offender...
As for lack of underwear in the military, my understanding from talking to people in the field is that a lack of underwear is pretty standard, especially in the field. Urine does a good job of reducing the chafing too. Of course, it was a marine who was espousing those benefits...
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
If I was designing such a system I would use drinking water as the liquid
How nice. But it is winter right now, so imagine those tests aren't too useful in-theater. Secondly, temperatures in the shade in August reach over 140 degrees. If they think 130 is hot, they don't have a clue what hot really is.
Disclosure: I am not a soldier. I lived as a civilian in Baghdad for two years, 2003-2005.
This is somewhat tangential, but does anyone else worry that by giving each soldier more and more gear such as these cooling suits, helmets with wireless HUDs, etc we make them more attractive targets?
I recall reading somewhere that by 2020 the average US soldier will carry something like $50,000 of (mostly high tech) gear each.
OK, it's bad that we have to send them where people will try to kill them... but setting up a situation where people will try to kill them just to take (and sell/use) all their high tech stuff seems like it could be even worse.
Many more Arab civilians died before we got hit as a retaliation for bad US foreign policy. Oh but keep ignoring that fact and blindly follow what your government tells you to.
Aren't flak jackets, by definition, just supposed to stop shrapnel? That seems a far cry from stopping bullets...
I'm pretty sure that Canadian soldiers get some training on how to get along with locals, which has definitely aided the success of Canadian peace-keeping missions under the NATO umbrella. Do American soldiers get this? Given the amount of "liberating" they do, it seems like something they would really benefit from. If teaching the marines to be polite prevents even one annoyed jerk from turning insurgent, it would be worth it.
I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this.
.50 BMG? That's ridiculous. There isn't any type of personal body armor that will stop a 50-cal, even today (unless you consider an armored vehicle a form of personal body armor).
I don't know what kind of "flack jacket" you're talking about that's comprised of "rticulated ceramic/steel plates with a touch of Kevlar fabric to hold it together" but it's nothing that I've ever seen. And a flak jacket from the Korean war, that was rated to stop a
I'll refer you over to the Body Armor page at Globalsecurity.org. "The [pre-Interceptor] "flak jacket," constructed of ballistic nylon, provided protection primarily from munitions fragments and was ineffective against most pistol and rifle threats. These vests also were very cumbersome and bulky and were restricted primarily to military use." This adequately describes the vests used up through Vietnam and which were even issued during the onset of the current war in Iraq. On the Interceptor system, which is current issue, "The outer tactical vest consists of a Kevlar weave that's very fine and will stop 9mm pistol rounds. Webbing on the front and back of the vest permits attaching such equipment as grenades, walkie-talkies and pistols. The Small Arms Protective Insert (SAPI) is made of a boron carbide ceramic with a spectra shield backing that's an extremely hard material. It stops, shatters and catches any fragments up to a 7.62 mm round with a muzzle velocity of 2,750 feet per second."
The old, Vietnam-era vest would not stop a 7.62mm rifle round. Whether it would stop a 9mm handgun round I'm not sure, but there are plenty of reports of guys being killed by being shot through the flak vest. It was never intended to stop aimed rifle fire. And it certainly wasn't made from hinged solid plate! Here's a page with a photo. It was made primarily of nylon.
That the new armor system -- with plates -- can reliably stop rifle rounds is a big deal. It was not true before; I do not believe there was a personal armoring system available to the average troops in any war before this one, that would stop bullets. The WWII, Korea, and Vietnam "flak jackets" were exactly that -- to stop flak, that is, fragments produced by things exploding.
You are also mistaken about the 5.56mm round. It does too have a steel penetrator. Nonwithstanding my personal experience (fire one through several layers of 1/4" mild steel plate separated by a few inches and you can see the copper jacket and lead surround strip off, and the steel core continue), there are an abundance of references on the net. The current issue is called the M885 Ball round, it is a 62 grain bullet with a full copper jacket and lead surrounding a cylindrical steel core. It's commonly referred to as "Green tip" because the tips of the bullets are painted green to differentiate them from the older, solid-lead M193 round, which has no coloring on the tips.
You can get quite an argument going with people familiar with terminal ballistics by asking about whether the wound profile of the new M855 bullets (they're quite a bit messier than the old solid lead ones) are due to the bullets 'tumbling,' or breaking apart on impact, but it's quite well known that they have a steel penetrator, and that this was introduced principally to defeat new types of body armor. The Russians have a comparable cartridge, for similar reasons. (Best reference: http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/basics/pmrb.htm l)
Also read:
http://www.geocities.com/odjobman/r1r42.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Not to feed the trolls, but what exactly is a 'legal' war? Is it one the UN signs off on? Does that mean that Korean war would have been illegal if the USSR had not been stupid and walked out that day instead of vetoing it? Was World War I and World War II illegal wars? What the fuck exactly are the conditions to make a war 'legal'?
The civilians are irrelevant to a discussion of body armor, unless they pick up weapons and become "insurgents" or "terrorists", as you prefer.
So THAT's why the Breen wear those suits despite their planet being temperate.
Anybody?
Aw, crap. Next time I'll pull a reference to TNG.
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.
Chaffing between the legs, commonly known as "jock-rot", is extremely unpleasant and painful.
Petroleum jelly (e.g. Vaseline - TM) applied on the fleshy bits that rub against each other will help a great deal. (between legs and testicles, (if you have them), and between the buttocks - no jokes please). Small tins are available for protecting lips. These weigh hardly anything and can save you from a lot of suffering. Beware of talc. Talc may be okay for feet but it can make jock-rot worse. If you inadvertantly mix talc with petroleum jelly you get a very fine grinding paste. Trust me - it rubs away the outer skin between the legs - very nasty!
On the subject of staying cool, a shemargh is brilliant. The native populace developed this clothing over centuries. You can use it too. Beware of wiping off sun protection cream. A walking stick strap or rubbing your face with the back of your hand will reduce or remove sun protection. Take care to reapply protective cream unless you want a nasty burn.
You might be able to walk around topless in Brittany (France) with care (I'm not recommending this). I found bare arms in the San Francisco Giants baseball stadium got painfully burned red during a game. All for the sake of not digging out some sun protection cream. (Well I was going to dig it out but we were in a hurry..)
Lightweights (green) were okay at around 90 deg F but I can't say how they cope in 130 deg F at blocking out IR and UV. I was extremely impressed with a long sleeve Lowe Alpine dry flo TM vest. Although it was black, it was amazingly effective at keeping the sun off and regulating body temperature. At night it was just a case of putting on a goretex jacket and a balaclava helmet while walking.
When active systems fail, you need to rely on passive systems. Keep it simple.
Re wearing a kilt - it might be good for catching locusts...
Don't even think about wearing a kilt in the area of Tyndrum in Scotland. The midges there don't know that jungle formula insect repellant is supposed to ward them off. If you happen to go camping there, make sure you have mosquito mesh in your tent. If you go walking there , take a mosi neat to wear over your head.
Cheers!
My hyperlinks aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
The last three headlines, including this one:
U.S. Army Testing Personal Cooling Suits
The Future of Tech And NSA Wiretaps
Xbox Modders Charged Under DMCA
There seemed to be something depressing when I saw all three of them in a row.
Whedon Calls Death Knell For Firefly
That's got to hurt, too.
No sig for you! Come back one year!
from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war
Detroit is no longer the capital of the automobile manufacturing universe.
Jason Vines - Chrysler Group Vice President of Communications
"Okay..let's try this one more time. There is no Big Three. The Chrysler Group is a unit of a company based in Germany. That leaves two auto companies with headquarters in the U.S., and none of them is us. I've been pounding away at this for a year and yet some publications can't seem to purge this outdated term from their vocabularies.
In today's Detroit Free Press, the lead story contained a sub-headline shouting "Ford, Chrysler and GM skid toward a 50 percent market share."
Sure. If you lump us all together it's technically accurate, but unfair. The fact is, only GM and Ford have lost market share this year. The Chrysler Group's U.S. share has actually increased a full half-point in November. While the other guys are cutting plants and jobs, we've secured the future of plants in Belvidere, Ill., Sterling Heights, Mich., and Toledo, Ohio, while opening a new joint venture global engine plant in Dundee, Mich. Are we becoming leaner at the same time? Yup. But that only adds to our profitability and productivity.
Should we be mentioned as a member of group to which we don't belong? Nope. Now let's look at the nonsense splashed across the pages of the Chicago Tribune. That paper's headline screams "Big Three's Pain Ripples Across the Midwest."
Pain? The only pain here is the extra effort it might have taken to get it right. In all fairness, the headline writer had no choice but to use the lazy, unfair shortcut since the story's two writers took well advantage of using it five times in the body of the story.
Now ditto to everything I said above regarding the Free Press's transgression, but I should point out to the Trib you might want to take a look about an hour up the road from your Michigan Avenue newsroom--the Belvidere Assembly is right in your backyard. The workers there who will enjoy continued employment building great products might be wondering exactly what pain you're speaking of.
So what's it going to take to erase the term from the lexicon? The Men in Black are way too busy to neuralize everyone, so I'll just have to trust you."
Quite clearly, my point was that we had 3,000 people who were not in fact able to "return home safely" despite the fact that "we" hadn't "declar[ed] war on people."
I guess you could say the GP is technically correct if you restrict his/her use of "them" to mean American soldiers, and not civilians. Our soldiers would indeed "return home safely" if we never used them to fight. But so what? The job of a soldier is not to be safe -- it is to put himself or herself in harm's way to protect American lives and interests. The GP's post was labeled "insightful" despite having nothing to say about whether the troops *should* be fighting. I don't get it -- what's insightful about pointing out that being a soldier is dangerous?
- AJ