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Senate Proposes Patriot Act Extension
geekylinuxkid writes "Senate leaders reached a bipartisan agreement Wednesday night to extend expiring and controversial provisions of the Patriot Act for six months. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a Republican from Tennessee, announced the agreement from the Senate floor, ending an impasse over the measure." From the article: "Last week, the House voted 251-174 to renew the 16 provisions after striking a compromise that altered some of them. The provisions were set to expire at year's end if not renewed. Controversial measures include those allowing the FBI -- with a court order -- to obtain secret warrants for business, library, medical and other records, and to get a wiretap on every phone a suspect uses." More commentary on the BBC. We reported on last week's failure of the original renewal.
HELLO WORLD
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HELLO WORLD
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As has been pointed out before... who needs an extension to the PATRIOT act, when the President can just issue an executive order?
This is not what I hoped for, but 6 months is probably the best the republicans can get for now. After all, 2006 is election year and everyone is switching into CYA mode. This will only hit the garbage can AFTER we elect a democratically controlled senate/house.
Frist makes me laugh, he says "This is a win for America's safety and security, and I'm pleased the Senate was able to rise above the partisan politics being played by the minority to do the right thing."
And we know the majority would NEVER play partisan politics to get what they want.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Put me on the top of the list of supposed "terrists" because I oppose everything the jackbooted thug Republicans stand for. Let's see the idiots open a file on me now if they already haven't! Up the rebels!!!
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
This is sad. 1984 anybody.
Why would the FBI need a warrant when King George can simply bypass FISA and issue a secret and pointless decree allowing domestic spying without a warrant? Especially when, under FISA, a wiretap or other device can be requested without a pre-existing warrant (as long as a warrant comes within 72 hours)?
-- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.
Fortunately, this doesn't guarantee it will pass. One of the provisions I agree with is the one that eliminates barriers to intelligence agents and prosecutors sharing information. This act has already infringed on many peoples freedom, but has also opened up the government to be more scrutinous in the case of certain suspicious entities. Has it overall had a positive or negative effect? Since we as the general public cannot easily gauge what information they have collected entirely as a result, who can say for sure.
For those interested in the provisions the House passed, this site explains most of them in plain english LA Times Provisions
This site has the latest in how the patriot act currently stands.
must be hiding something...
We just got Fristed?
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
US citizens:
Write, phone, email your Representatives and Senators - and ask them to knock down at least some of the more onerous provisions of the Patriot Act - I'm thinking of provisions like the one allowing secret warrants, for example.
Many of them will be back in their districts for the holidays. Visit their offices and talk politely with their staff. Inform yourselves of the Act's details, and make to-the-point suggestions.
Exercise democracy. The Act is vulnerable at this moment.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
Too bad they didn't mean "extinction".
It's better to fight for freedom by _providing_ freedom. The same goes for a whole bunch of other nations as well... *looks at a bunch of European countries wanting to play Stasi as well*
Put the money on finding terrorists, diplomatic solutions to end hostilities and good old fashion not too bright police officers who screw up in a way we can find out.
Almost as bad as the guy that posted "czech this out" on the front page.
Wrists killing you? Not in 2 weeks. Learn Dvorak.
At least we don't have never-expiring extensions that never come up for review.
The simple fact of the matter is that I just don't trust our current administration with the powers they've been granted - and that's quite a change considering I voted for Bush in 2000. He's done a lot to convince me I didn't pick the best man for the job - you'd almost think he was trying.
I haven't read the linked article yet, but I did read a story in the Wisconsin State journal about it...
Apparently the bill still needs to go to the House, as the House originally voted for it to be renewed in it's original form, not an extension. According to that article, because it's different than what the House voted to pass, it has to go up for another vote.
It was also pointed out that the House is scheduled to be in recess until January 31, a month after the original provisions will expire and be off the books--and it's hard to extend something that is already expired (although I wouldn't put anything past this administration--I'll be so glad when W is out of office!)
In my not-so-educated opinion, it would appear that given what little I know, the extension doesn't stand much chance of passing since a recessed House would have to reconvene, debate, and vote on the changes, in less than nine days, during the holiday season.
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
I think that goes directly back to what Benjamin Franklin was saying when he talked about people who give up freedom for security deserve neither.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
What will be the next step? Start gathering a clone army or start building the Death Star?
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The Patriot Act was passed in 2001 while the WTC rubble was still smoking. They built in the expiration because it was obviously a piece of knee-jerk legislation guaranteed to be overreaching-- it was expected that four years later, we'd have simmered down, we'd have the benefit of hindsight and the expiration date would force re-examination and adjustment of the law's provisions.
Nobody imagined that that son of a bitch Bush II and his minions would have spent the intervening years abusing/hiding behind it while turning the U.S. into a police state, and that they'd not want to pare down any of the civil-liberties-stomping aspects.
~Philly
from what I've read case law supports this. Since it involves foreign powers and influence, the President, any President, can use those powers with no need for a warrant as is within his right as commander and chief.
How about we strike a deal? The government will prevent people from blowing stuff up, like the Brooklyn Bridge, and they won't use those tapes in court at a trial.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
The most amazing thing about this soap opera is how all that government spying was accepted to be really happening ever since the 50's by every conspiracy theorist or anyone with common sense.
What did you think those thousands of CIA agents, NSA agents, FBI agents did all day? Eat donuts?
Now that they actually tried to ratify their activities on paper, every conspiracy theorist now says it never happened before and acts like defeating the patriot act is going to make a difference.
Nobody imagined that that son of a bitch Bush II and his minions would have spent the intervening years abusing/hiding behind it while turning the U.S. into a police state...
Um...just for the record...I imagined it. I started imagining it just about when the Republican-dominated Supreme Court of the Unites States handed Dubya the Presidency.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
i'd like to see an example of where the patriot act provisions were used egregiously by the current administration.
Actually, it violates the 4th and 5th amendments to the US Constitution and some of it has already been thrown out by judges.
D eclawed
http://www.devshed.com/showblog/1305/PATRIOT-Act-
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
One thing that no one seems to realise - and is very important for Canadians and other countries who do business in the United Sates (so almost everyone) - is that this law also allows US intelligence agencies to spy on our businesses and citizens who have dealings with the US. They have no right to do this. It is an act of espionage and just another example the gross hypocrisy and mass stupidity of an administration claiming to stand for personal freedoms, civil liberties, and human rights.
These included roving phone taps and secret warrants for documents from businesses and hospitals, and for records of library books taken out by private citizens. From BBC
They can look at my library records? Oh, man. I only checked out the Brian Herbert books 'cause I was curious. I'm so sorry...please don't throw me in jail...
Patriot Act? With the President tapping phone lines, who really cares what laws are in place? Apparently they don't matter.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
"These included roving phone taps and secret warrants for documents from businesses and hospitals, and for records of library books taken out by private citizens."
Delayed notification search warrants are a long-existing, crime-fighting tool upheld by courts nationwide for decades in organized crime, drug cases and child pornography
DA's have been seizing library records for years, and roving wire taps just make sense. If a terrorist walks into Best Buy and can buy 10 pre-paid phones, we should be able to keep tapping him.
This will only hit the garbage can AFTER we elect a democratically controlled senate/house.
Unfortunately, you did elect a democratically controlled sentate/house. It's just that a combination of events allowed most of the checks and balances to be overcome.
Ultimately, the 2000 election aside, a Republican president got elected in to office. In 2004 he got elected back in again. In 2008 he has to leave and either a Republican will be elected in to follow him or a Democrat to replace him. Pretty much democracy in action.
Congress and the Senate, similarly, were populated by votes. Granted there was some dubious redistricting by a guy who's now under criminal investigation - but those offices were all populated by votes and can have their population changed by votes. Again, pretty much democracy in action.
None of those offices, despite some glaring similarities, are dictatorships and, certainly, none of them are "for life" (save the Supreme Court but that's long been accepted). Every one of them can be changes [at regular intervals] by the will of the people. Thus, by definition, it is a democracy.
The problem is, when you allow the will of the people, you have to allow that people are stupid.
9/11 and the threat of the boogie man have worked as a great tool for scaring people and getting them to vote pro-conservative. It worked for the Nazi party in the 1940s, it worked for the Conservatives in Britain during the Falkands and the first Gulf war, and it's working for the Republicans now.
As Jimmy Carter pointed out on The Daily Show last night: "There's 9-10% of the population that, regardless of political affiliation, will always vote to support the current commander in chief whenever there's a war on and America's young men and women are fighting." Most of the margins are well within that 9-10% and, so long as there's a war on, it's an instant bonus for the party in power.
So, sadly, it is, by definition, a democratically elected government. It's just that part of democracy is allowing stupid people to vote, that stupid people can be manipulated, and that smart politicians will, eventually, find a way around almost any checks and balances. But that doesn't stop it being democratically elected.
Hey, if the Iron Curtain was so much fun 1960s, well... the USSA can be fun, too.
With apologies to the Beatles...
Oh, flew into Miami Beach econo-class,
Didn't get to bed last night,
TSA guy's rubber glove still up my ass,
Man I had a dreadful flight,
I'm back in the USSA!
They're watchin' you every day, hey,
Back in the USSA!
Been away so long I hardly knew the place,
Gee it's good to be back home,
Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case,
Honey disconnect the phone,
I'm back in the USSA.
They're watchin' you every day, hey,
Back in the US,
More flak in the US,
No slack in the USSA!
Well the Midwest girls really knock me out
They leave Moscow behind
And DC girls make me sing and shout
'Cuz Washington is always on my mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind!
Oh, they're sayin' it's for reasons of security,
Naw, it ain't no politics,
And now they've redefined the meaning of "be free",
To shiny boots and big nightsticks!
We're back in the USSA!
They're watchin' you every day, hey,
Back in the USSA!
Oh let me tell you, honey! (Ooh ooh ooh!)
Oh, show me around your desert wastelands way down south,
Hire Chicanos for your farm,
Let me hear your patriotic acts ring out,
Shock and awe your comrades warm!
I'm back in the USSA!
They're watchin' you every day, hey,
Back in the USSA!
Oh let me tell you, honey! (Ooh ooh ooh!)
Hey, I'm back! (Ooh ooh ooh!)
I'm back in the USSA. (Ooh ooh ooh!)
Yes, I'm free! (Ooh ooh ooh!)
Yeah, back in the USSA.. (Ooh ooh ooh!)
Next step: Instituting a federal Bear Patrol to stop these constant bear attacks. I also hear there's a little girl who has a rock that keeps tigers away, this should also be investigated.
All movements for social change begin as missions, evolve into businesses, and end up as rackets.
These are the text from number stations, they broadcast messages to spies using a one-time pad. numbers stations for more info; so really, parent should be modded up
1p}{ 1 sp34k |33+ +|-|e|\| p30p13 \/\/il| 8e i/\/\pr3553|)
I'm well aware of the original vote tally passing the "patriot" act. I think we've seen it was an overreaction, that it has been abused, and the White House has overstepped even the wide powers it got from that ill considered peace of legislation.
Every time Condi talks about it, she always says "The first smoking gun could be a mushroom cloud over a major city." My guess is that she's trying to scare and stampeed people into unwise actions.
America is about freedom.
The Administration is always talking about how "they" hate and despise our freedomes.
Seems to me that we shouldn't be limiting freedoms then. Otherwise, we are doing the work of destroying our country for them.
Getting down to cases, I think it's been shown what has done with the special powers granted in the act. EG: Not a lot of good things. We've invaded two countries, installed governments to our liking, and still people are shooting at each other and innocents are still dying. No improvement there, other than getting the Taliban and Saddam out of power. That is aregueably a good thing, but the price is much too high in my opinion. I thought at the time that we should have waited, but I was also concerned about the yellow cake situation. A stiuation it turns out just wasn't true.
Next is that "Congress saw all the same intelligence we did!" Well, sir, that turns out not to be the case. Seems that source assessment reports on the intelligence was NOT shared with congress, but WAS shared with the Administration. A source assessment report grades the source of the intelligence, some "spy" books range it as "Accepted as truth", "Trusted source, personally received", down to "known counterintelligence operat." There are good reasons not to share that information, but it seems most of the most damaging and most pointed to intelligence was from people known to be undependable, and that the administration knew they were but didn't say so, and there were some in the intelligence community that kept trying to point it out these sources were undependable. Some were gagged, some were transferred, some were fired, most were just ignored.
No sir. This is bad law and it isn't good for our country. I will say this, I have no doubt whatever that someone that has a known bad guy and needs the information to protect the country will do what it takes to get the information, even breaking the law to do it if it's that important. When that happens, it will either get covered up, or it will become public. Only if it becomes public will it go to a court, where 12 citizen will sit there and put themselves in the position of the agent and decide if what he did was illegal but justified. Even if it were illegal, I believe that a jury won't find him guilty if it was important enough.
Lastly, I love my country. I do not have to love the administration, and I refuse to accept being called unpatriotic because I disagree with your opinions. That is unworthy of a patriot, and the supporters of this administration should find a more mature way to disagree with people. What I see is that many confuse critizing the administrations actions with hating America. That isn't true. It's called loving your country to want to make it better, no matter how good it already is.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
I suggest you visit this site and familiarize yourself with the event in question.
From the site (emphasis mine):Bush's 2000 victory was only 'legal' in the sense that a decision of the SCOTUS must be de facto lawful, as there is no higher legal authority...in other words, the doctrine of 'the King can do no wrong'.
For a taste of how our Founding Father's felt about this doctrine, here's a quote from The Federalist No. 69:Of course, this is in regard to the executive branch, but similar views were held forth regarding the judicial.
From The Federalist No. 78:
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Please show that nobody imagined that the misnamed Patriot Act would be abused. It is my opinion that anyone with minimal capacity for rational thought imagined exactly that. Further, when it was subsequently revealed that none of those who voted for the bill had actually read it, imagination quickly turned to resignation. At least in my case. I still suspect that the allegations that the DoJ had the PA prepared in advance are true.
--
My other car is a tin foil hat.
America may be falling apart, but it's because of people like you. Oh how quickly we forget that our country was founded on the questioning of authority. Balance of powers, representation, freedom...those words ring a bell? Why are the ones that are so adament about spreading "freedom" to other countries (at least, those we have an economic interest in...oh, and aren't strong enough to fight back) so willing to give up their own? http://www.aclu.org/Privacy/Privacy.cfm?ID=11054&c =130
Do those look like rights that the government already has? Or maybe we should be asking, do those look like rights the government SHOULD have? I'm really getting sick of Republicans using FUD to scare the ignorant masses into sacraficing their civil liberties in the name of security and the war on terror.
Let's use the secret wiretaps as an example here. Are there terrorist threats in the world today? Yes. Would allowing secret wiretaps of American citizens help monitor them? Yes. Do these two facts justify the use of allowing secret wiretaps of American citizens? NO! Jesus tapdancing Christ people, why not have a camera in every household monitoring your actions while we're at it? Maybe a CIA officer handcuffed to you at all times? Hell, why not just station each of us in some massive jail with no outside contact? At least we'd be safe right? No terrorist going to get us that way!
Sacraficing liberty and freedom in the name of security is anti-American and the way Bush and his administration is spinning it off is terrorism. Don't forget your roots and don't forget how quickly one bad dictator can ruin a powerful nation. Countries with seemingly unlimited power have fallen before, we are no different. You ever wonder how all those great empires fell and think "how in the hell did they let that madman drive their nation into the ground?". That's what's happening now. And if we aren't careful, we're going to end up becoming a footnote in history as another world power that toppled because of poor leadership that drew way too many enemies. That's when the terrorist will have won, when we start living in fear and sacraficing the freedom we tout. Hell, I'm not all that convinced they haven't already won. Time will tell.
P.S. The bill was passed by an overwhelming majority because it was thrown together at the last minute because they needed to do something to prevent mass hysteria in the wake of 9/11.
The Washington Post recently launched a comprehensive votes database that lets you browse every vote in the U.S. Congress since 1991 and is updated several times daily.
Here, for instance, is the House vote mentioned in this Slashdot blurb.
Disclaimer: I'm the Web developer who worked on this database.
We well remember the circumstances under which a law called "the PATRIOT Act" got passed to begin with. Yes. You might do better for your side of the ideological divide not to remind anyone of that process. This discussion is already about the abuse of power, you don't need to score points for the other side.
does NOT introduce one new power not already available to the government or a DA in some form to Drug Dealers.
You need to maybe edit this sentence so we have the slightest idea what you're saying. I think I can make a guess, but your point is badly garbled.
do the research and actually read through the entire legislation before making a judgement
Had you noticed that the debate about this law's renewal has had two sides:
Which of those sides seems to be staking out an adult position? Which reflects a thorough understanding of the bill? I ask you.
The objections to this legislation reflect specific concerns about it, they aren't an incoherent rant on the level of your post. I guess we'll just have to cut you some slack, though, as you're busy reading the 342-page text of the act, I feel certain.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
Hell no! I will not leave this country. It is my country. Every time I read a suggestion that "We" find a new place to live, because "Our country is going down the tube, I cringe. I will not run away but will stay the course to restore citizens rights. If "They" don't like it they can leave but "I'm" staying put.
Please mod me 1 or troll. It's where the truth is these days, even on Slashdot. Beware the power of moderators everywh
To thwart would be evil-doers I use:
Cloak of Protection from +1, (+3 vs. Activist Judges)
Gauntlets of Serenity (+3 to saving throws vs. fear of a Neo-Con Supreme Court, unlawful searches and wiretapping)
Boots of successful striding (+4 to saving throws vs. harrasment by overworked and underpaid peon security personnel)
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
No one's checking my papers.
What makes you think you would be told if they were doing this? The PATRIOT act and FISA allow such surveillance to be done in secret, which means that you wouldn't be told. You might well be being monitored right this very minute; this very post may have gone into the "jav1231" file.
And you would simply never know.
--
$tar -xvf
The renewal was killed originally because the Democrats showed something resembling backbone by threatening a filibuster. Then, what? a couple weeks later, the same bill is being extended, and not a peep from the gutless idiots. So it was all posturing. They want it just as bad as the Republicans do, but they want to be seen to be reluctant.
The Senate Democrats showed themselves to be toothless watchdogs when they joined the 98-1 vote in favor of the original Patriot Act. It was later disclosed that most Senators joining in the vote didn't even read the legislation. And they slavishly voted in favor of the resolutions leading to the Iraq war with just as little questioning of the administration (with a very small number of honorable exceptions). Later, they trot out lame excuses: that they were deceived, they didn't know what they were voting for, they were just supporting the president in time of need, etc. This is what is wrong with the Democratic Party. They'll whine a litte, try to mitigate some effects, but they're part of the same rotten system, and are part of a herd mentality that afflicts the entire power elite in Washington. If the Republicans adovated the genocide of ten million, the Dems would offer a counter-proposal of five million, and fret about getting a Presidential assurance that only humane killing methods would be used.
They don't WANT the soap on a rope.
Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
The only meaningful thing you point out, and which is the REAL FUCKING PROBLEM HERE, is "You are all for it when it serves your politics".
I'm a Democrat, leaning libertarian, but some of the krap Clinton tried to pull, like the Clipper chip, and things he did get away with, like NAFTA, really pissed me off.
I guess I'm one of the few who rationally looks at legislation, regardless of whether it's proposed by "my party" or not.
It really blows my mind that the once "small government" Republicans (you know who you are...) are now the ones hell bent on making the U.S. some kind of police state.
IMHO, the Republicans who voted with the Democrats on this latest round of the Patriot Act have way bigger balls than the Bill Frists, et al.
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
NAFTA article
A money quote from above article:
"In addition, NAFTA included unprecedented guarantees to protect the value of corporate investments and even the rights to earn profits in the future arising out of changes in government regulations or policy. In particular, NAFTA created specific clauses that provide for compensation for lost investments and loss of future profits due to regulations that are "tantamount to expropriation" (NAFTA Secretariat 2003, article 1110). No other part of NAFTA has generated as much controversy as this "investor state" clause. To date, 27 cases have been reviewed under this clause by companies alleging that their foreign investments or their right to earn profits in other countries have been expropriated (Hemispheric Social Alliance 2003, 68-74). These claims, several of which have resulted in damages paid or regulations rescinded, have had a chilling effect on government efforts to regulate private businesses throughout the hemisphere."
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) of the Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.
Did you even read my post? FISA (the "Act" this order is referring to) explicitly grants permission to the President to authorize warrantless search for Foreign Governments and its Agents.
However, it EXPLICITLY FORBIDS the government from doing the same search on US Citizens without warrants.
Here, you can read it yourself.
Did you even READ this executive order? It does EXACTLY what I said it does. It says that since FISA gives me this power to search foreign powers, I am going to delegate this power to my Attorney General and other top cabinet officals.
WHERE does it say that even though FISA prohibits it, you are authorized to search US citizens without a warrant? Do you see ANY sentence here that says you should ignore FISA (in fact, EVERY paragraph starts with "Pursuant to FISA...")?
Why is this so hard to understand. I get that Rush and Fox News is distorting it, but gosh darn it, it is right here in black and white. ANY cursory reading of this order and FISA would lead any sane mind to fact that Clinton is going WITH the FISA while Bush is going AGAINST it.
SENATOR CRAIG: Well, Rush, thank you, and thank you for allowing me on. It is a very important debate, and something that I think has -- certainly by Harry Reid and others -- been dramatically miscast as it relates to the intent of some of us who have constantly worked to assure that the Patriot Act did not tread on the rights, the constitutional rights, of law-abiding American citizens. You know, I've been here a little while, and I remember Janet Reno, and I remember Waco and Ruby Ridge, and I fear the day that we get a president, not this president, who has a very liberal attorney general and sees the opportunity, uh, to leap through the holes that are crafted in the Patriot Act, uh, that could tread on our civil liberties. I say that having once voted for the Patriot Act and -- and will vote for it again, and we're working very hard at this moment. We've been visiting with the White House the last few hours along with Democrats and Republicans to try to resolve this, because there is no question that a majority of the Senate, which includes some Democrats, do not want to see the Patriot Act expire. At the same time, we see this as a once-in-a-two-or-three-year opportunity or four to make sure that it never gets misused. That's permanent law we're talking about, not just something that we keel with on a day-to-day basis.
RUSH: I understand that. Let me focus on something you said at first here. You said that Senator Reid is mischaracterizing some of the loyal opposition on the Republican side of this, or I guess throughout the whole Senate. One of the things I think that bothers people, and I'm sure you've been getting e-mail and phone calls in your office from people who just know that you voted against it, don't understand it. The reason they're upset is because they see a Democratic Party trying to undermine this president and sabotage the ability to wage war against this enemy, and the people who elected Republicans in this country expect them to go to Washington and understand this war is taking place and not side with them on things that hurt the president. So that's the first thing. People see that. They don't understand it, and it makes them wonder: What's the point of electing Republicans?
SENATOR CRAIG: Well, you've made a very good point, and I don't deny that. The reality is that we are at war, and we're at war with a very formidable enemy -- and, you know, my votes historically along with a lot of others have demonstrated that. I know --
RUSH: Well, what are you primarily opposed to in the Patriot Act?
SENATOR CRAIG: I'm opposed very simply, Rush, for the right of our government secretly to break into a home and to take computer files and other files and never tell the homeowner. I'm talking about a US citizen. Now, I'm willing to blink, and a lot of us are willing to blink, and we said, "Okay, you can go ahead and do that." This is under the FISA law, the federal -- the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. "We'll let you do that without telling the homeowner." That's a major step.
RUSH: Wait a second --
SENATOR CRAIG: Now, wait a moment. Within seven days after you've done it, if you find that you found nothing, and it will not damage your investigation, then you need to tell them. And if you do find something, and it will damage your investigation, then you've got to do like you do in civil or criminal law, you've got to go before a judge and say, "We have reason to believe, and here are all the facts," and the judge says, "Go forth. Be silent. Continue to investigate." That is a simple, simple request, and it is clearly a protection of our civil liberties.
RUSH: Wait a minute. I'm confused. You're coupling the Patriot Act with the FISA controversy?
SENATOR CRAIG: You bet I am because it's a major provision within the Patriot Act.
RUSH: Well, but there's been no illegality within the president in regards to any of this. This is pure propaganda, senator.
SENATOR CRAIG: No, no, no. No, no. We're talking two separate things here. You'r
Life is not for the lazy.
The reality on the ground is that a few dozen lawmakers, extremely loyal to the Bush administration, would have to turn coat entirely, as the first step toward impeachment. This is true, if the crime you want to prosecute is the domestic spying, or if a dead hooker rolled down the stairs of AF1.
Outside of this process, there is only the option of rebellion or coup d'état, and nobody is *that* upset thus far.
With a sufficiently loyal Congress, the President of the United States is effectively above any rule of law, and beyond the reach of any consequences of his actions.
People keep repeating the "I" word as though there is a conceivable scenario under which it could happen. Perhaps Winter 2006 will see a new Congress dominated by opposition party members who are actually willing to press charges against the President, but I would not count on this.
President Bush will end his term in 2009. When he does, the incoming administration will acquire whatever powers the current administration posseses today. Whether that incoming administration will be a Democratic challenger, or whether it will be Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, all remains to be seen.
But there is no chance of impeachment unless evidence comes to light that is so compelling, it turns some of the most stingently aligned and loyal politicians in history, 180 away from thier current position. You will need a great deal more than the phone tapping ideas, something as yet not ruled to be a crime by any judge. The Iraq lies didn't do it. The Plame case might make some headway, but I doubt it.
There's no Impeachment coming, and there is nobody stupid enough, brave enough, or upset enough to worry about a coup or a rebellion. This will remain the status quo until January of 2009.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Here, let me install a camera in every room in your house and a gps monitoring system on your person.
You're not hiding anything, right?
Sheep...
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
> 68% of the populace thinks we should be able to tap terorist cell phones
Well, no shit. The problem is that it isn't used for terrorists, it's used for terror suspects who are presumed guilty without trial or any chance to defend themselves.
The House has just passed a ONE month extension, vs the six month extension of the Senate. They now get to argue over a compromise. Although GWB has not been in the mood for compromise.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
In addition, we should spend more money on electric passenger and freight railroad systems. Maybe electrically-powered freight could even replace a lot of long-distance trucks in the next 20-30 years (using roll-on roll-off cars where the trailers are driven onto the railcars). Energy itself can also be saved by people adopting more reasonable lifestyles. The majority of incandescent bulbs' power input goes into generating heat. Replace those bulbs with compact fluorescents or LEDs and you're using 25% as much energy as before for lighting (and before someone starts complaining about Hg in CF bulbs, yes, CF bulbs are recyclable). In addition, who needs a 4,000 sq ft McMansion in the suburps for a 4- or 5- person family. Maybe development will become denser and smaller and heating/AC costs will go down that way.
Drilling the ANWR is a Bandaid for a gunshot wound. It might temporarily stop the bleeding, but the patient's still going to croak without major surgery.
-b.
How to become acclimatised to facism
Actually, your statement:
a lCollege.htm
"President is only voted for by the Electoral College, any member of whom can vote for anybody they want."
is substantially incorrect. It's much closer to your next sentence about the "all-or-none nature of each state" - 29 of the 50 states and the District of Columbia have what are called "Faithless Elector" laws, in which an elector is required by state law, and is in violation of that law, if they do not vote for the majority candidate for the state.
Further, there is no provision for apportioning electors between multiple candidates - these laws are in fact "majority rule", where all electoral votes go to a signle candidate based on the state popular vote.
Several states impose fines on electors who violate these laws, and one, New Mexico, treats it as a 4th degree felony (the penalty for a felony includes stripping certain rights of citizenship, including the right to vote in future elections, until and unless the felon is pardoned or the stripped rights are otherwise restored by an act of government).
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/Elector
Also, your statement:
"And the electoral college came about becuase they decided that stupid people shouldn't vote and that an intelligent person should represent their overall preference."
Isn't really that correct, although that was the rationalization used to sell the idea to the Federalists. The actual explanation has more to do with voing technology and communications delays than a plot to disenfranchise "the unwashed masses". It would have been nearly impossible, in the early days of the Republic, to communicate results from polling places to the county seat, and then to the secretary of state, and then to Washington, in under some number of months, effectively leaving us without a rubber-stamped government for large stretches of time following each election.
-- Terry
Interesting. This looks very much like a numbers station. Notice how it's structured.
HELLO WORLD -- Station identification?
51596 51596 -- One time pad?
HELLO WORLD -- Station identification?
And then the message starts.
5 numbers per group, with each group repeated once, which is very common, as well.
This has me thinking, really. Spies used to get messages like these from shortwave radio stations because shortwave can't be traced to the recipient and shortwave radios were commonplace. But shortwave radios aren't commonplace at all any longer. A website like Slashdot, on the other hand, is all but ubiquitous. EVERYBODY reads slashdot. I realize it's probably just someone messing around, but maybe the internet has become commonplace enough that we've gone from numbers stations to numbers posts.
>> If you are tapping communication to/from US, if any party is unknown, that any reasonable person would agree that there is SUBSTANTIAL likelyhood that it involves a citizen.
They could use the theory that if you are calling a private Al Qaeda number, then you are likely affiliated with them. If you are affiliated with them, you are probably not a legal citizen, etc. It doesn't guarantee you aren't... but it is in interesting (if disturbing) connection. I'd hate to accidentally dial one of the numbers =-/
I've found that "reasonable person" in court scenarios cn be a little wacky. We would need to know what was actually targetted to get a better idea of theory/intent, I think.
>>And if you do inadvertantly tap US citizen's communications, you HAVE to get the warrant (even if it is after the fact). That is what section 1805 is all about.
Where does it actually say that? I'm getting lost in alot of the cross referencing.
>> And did you read the definitions? Section 1801? It CLEARLY states that FISA DOES NOT cover US citizens (and legal aliens)
I did read it.
The part you refer to is "Agent of a foreign power", not "foreign power"
1802 (a)(1)(A)(i) states explicitly "as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3)", not 1801 (b), so CLEARLY it does cover the possibility of including some United States Persons.
Anyway, this still doesn't address the court's opinion that it is a constitutional authority of the president, which would exeed legal authority by definition.
If we don't like it, we need to ammend it.