Mathematics Skills More in Demand Than Ever

knownsense writes "Business week has a nice article (feel good, low on detail, vague numbers) on the rise of maths and mathematicians in a world that is increasingly obsessed with statistics, advertising, search engines, and algorithms. The article also deals with issues of privacy. How has mathematics, statistics and other number driven aspects of life impacted you in the last decade?"

Comments

Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[sbaker]

We all know that advancements in technology can cost people their jobs. However, in the case of the building industry in Texas, the effect of introducing new technology can often be somewhat delayed.

Back in 1997, my new house was in the slow process of changing from plans on paper into bricks on concrete. One of the tasks that has to be done early on is to lay out the shape of the house accurately onto the land. My builder uses a sub-contractor to do that - and I had occasion to watch him work. He arrived in a beat up old pickup truck with four 'migrant workers' sitting in the back. In order to lay out the initial 'bounding rectangle' of the building, they follow this algorithm:

* Measure a baseline for the long edge of the rectangle. Mark it with two stakes hammered into the ground and tie a length of nylon string between them.

* Tie a second piece of string to one of the stakes and measure out the width of the rectangle along it. Eyeball the angle between the new edge and the baseline so it's roughly 90 degrees and you have an 'L' shape. One guy holds the string there.

* Do the same at the other end of the baseline. Now you have a 'U' shape and two guys are holding the open ends of the strings.

* Take a third piece of string - equal in length to the length of the rectangle. Give one end to each of the two guys who are already holding string. 'jiggle' them until all three strings are tight. You now have a parallelogram made of string, staked out at two corners.

* Now take two long tape measures and with one guy standing at each corner of our parallelogram, position the tape measures along the two diagonals of the parallelogram. With two guys holding the tapes on the baseline stakes and the other two holding onto the strings and shouting out the lengths of the diagonals, they jiggle the two free points until all of the strings are tight and the two diagonals tape measures are reading the same lengths. This requires a lot of shouting, cursing and everyone telling everyone else which way to move.

* Now they have a rectangle - so they bash in two more stakes and then level the whole thing with a really impressive-looking laser contraption.

Well, I watched this with some amusement - and asked why they didn't just calculate the length of the diagonal. The boss guy said that you couldn't do that - "It's impossible". I told him about Pythagoras' theorem. With the aid of a calculator (he didn't know what that funny 'square-root' key was for), I was able to show him how easy it is to calculate the length of the diagonal and do away with all the ugly 'jiggling'.

"Wow!" he said. Then he thought for a moment - "Now I'll only need three guys to hold the string!"...and fired one of them on the spot! I thought he was kidding - but the next day when they were measuring out the place for the garage, there was one less guy holding the string.

So, a 2,500 year old technological advance cost some poor guy his job. ...sigh...

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Wholeflaffer]

That makes one less migrant tech worker visa that's needed.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Peden]

While it was true it cost someone his job, it also effectively lowered the price of the subcontractors operations, which in turn, will make it cheaper for you. When will people understand that in the long run better technology is a win-win, no matter how you look at it. Yes widespread RFID will cost alot of people their jobs at supermarkets when people can just go through the exit and the price is deducted automatically from the account. These people, althought sad and with no job at first, will find other jobs and society will be better off in general.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[stunt_penguin]

If Pythagoras can get one guy fired, imagine what Goldman's Polytope is going to do!

/changes professions

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Vellmont]

So, a 2,500 year old technological advance cost some poor guy his job. ...sigh...

That's one way to look at it. There's no denying that technology replaces some low level jobs. But on the other end the boss guy now has more money to spend on something else. He might pocket the money, or he might fire another guy and use the combined money to hire a more skilled helper. Then take on jobs that require more skill than simply staking out building sites.

If technology simply eliminated jobs without creating new ones, we'd all have been out of work a few thousand years ago.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Funakoshi]

While I appreciate the story, I think your sub-contractor was pretty brutal, at the very least he should have had a theodolite (construction instrument) to turn his 90 degree angles for him. I sell construction equipment and there is no doubt that it is difficult to "teach an old dog new tricks", the technology available to those companies is mind boggling, but equally as amazing is the fact that they dont search it out to improve their effeciency.

For example, the layout contractors I speak to (should) use instruments that allow them to layout their forms with not only no string, but also no paper. Plans are transfered to ruggedized PDAs, attached to instruments that calculate locations based on distance and angles from given landmarks, and stakes are pounded. They can increase productivity by 30% with very little effort at all. Some land suveyors are doing layout with GPS systems with sub-centimeter accuracy and are seeing 50-70% increases in productivity.

I dont mean to flame the parent, he/she is correct, the users in that industry dont use enough technology, but it is available to them.

PS: I think, no matter how much frickin money they make, they ALL drive beat up pickups

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Dielectric]

I used to think like that, too. Not so much anymore. Try "Player Piano" by Kurt Vonnegut.

There's always going to be a bottom rung of people who really can't do much more than run a cash register. What happens to them?

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[pogson]

The trailing edge of the bell curve can be accommodated by the small operations that are so small, staff cannot be cut further, the night shift, the undesirable post, and the dole/welfare/prison/social assistance.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Threni]

> When will people understand that in the long run better technology is a win-win, no matter how
> you look at it.

A `win win` in which context? Are people happier, safer, richer etc when there is more technology around them? I though technology was neutral? People in the 1950's were told that washing machines, vaccuum cleaners etc would allow housewifes/etc to get the jobs done so quickly they'd have more time for leisure, but repeated surveys of housewife's/etc show no increase in happiness.

You don't have more fun playing an xbox360 game than you did playing on a spectrum/amiga/psx1, you don't have more fun driving a modern car, or watching a new film etc. Technology is having a negative impact on the environment, jobs (wages, hours worked) etc. These are not the only result of technology, just the way it's being used. We live in an abusive social system where the minority of the worlds population controls the majority of its resources - the rest of use who are lucky enough not to live somewhere where we're likely to die from easily treatable diseases/problems like malnutrition, cholera, diarreah, malaria have to work longer and harder to take home less money to pay more for less. Technology just makes that process faster.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Vellmont]

There's always going to be a bottom rung of people who really can't do much more than run a cash register. What happens to them?

The society works hard to shrink them to a smaller and smaller percentage of the populace through education. Fify years ago I'll bet you the percentage of unskilled labor was much higher in the US than it is now.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[cryfreedomlove]

I don't share your sense of gloom. People today are living longer and better than 50 years ago. People below the poverty line in the USA today drive their own car, they have color TV's, and they are vaccinated. None of them are going to be crippled by polio or die from the measles.

Still, if you really think things are getting worse, let's make you King with absolute authority. What would you do to change things?

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[sammy baby]

Did I just read correctly that one of your options for people who can't find unskilled labor work is prison?

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Dinny]

People are certainly safer and richer. Safer, look at the number of work related deaths as a percentage of population from 1950 to today. Richer, compare the average portion of income spent on luxuries like eating out.

As far as happier, people have signifigantly more control over how they spend their time and what they do. People tend to settle in to a level of happiness based not on their current condition, but on what they compare it to. Find someone and compare what they would have had in the 50's to what they have now and see if what they have now makes them happy.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Threni]

> People today are living longer and better than 50 years ago

People are living longer largely due to decreased infant mortality.

> Still, if you really think things are getting worse, let's make you King with absolute
> authority. What would you do to change things?

More equality of access to healthcare. Discourage the trend towards obesity by ensuring people can afford and have access to fresh fruit and vegetables every day. Encourage people to excersize. Encourage better/cheaper public transport so you don't have 1 person per car all over the planet. Ensure cycling is safe anc convenient.

That's a start, for developed countries. The main problem is in developing problems. While Mr Bush is spending billions fighting `terrorism` many, many, many more people are dying from problems like those I mentioned before. Why not take a look at the number of people dying each year from them? How much money would it take to sort that out?

If you're obsessed with using technology then there's no reason why we couldn't spend less time exploring space - just for a few years, we'll get back to it - and more time working on desalination systems, solar power capture, wave energy capture, hybrid/alternatively powered transport - stuff like that.

Really, the problems are obvious, but because it's not in your face every single day we don't think about it. If there was a part of your town that people were dying of, say, diarreah or sleeping sickness and the cure cost a few pence you wouldn't say `oh, but they're across town, that's not my problem` - you'd probably go there this weekend and help out, like what happens when there's a hurricane or earthquake. That doesn't happen when it's happening across the world, even though thanks to jet technology (a consequence of the military angle that infects all research) you could be there this time tomorrow.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[raddan]

But what happens when your educational system is barely able to keep up with the current demand for educated workers?

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[OldManAndTheC]

let's make you King with absolute authority. What would you do to change things?

Oh boy! Let's see:

• Raise the alcohol content of beer.
• Reinstate the practice of dwarf-tossing
• Get rid of the IRS. Replace it with knights in armor who go door to door and take all your stuff, and give it the King (me).
• Bring back droit du seigneur

It's good to be the King!

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[hswerdfe]

why am I better of that I can buy a bag of apples at a 2% discount?
why am I better of that I can buy this bag of apples 10% quicker then 5 years ago?

why?

perhaps I would be better of this bag of apples was grown in Ontario and shipped to me a few hundred mile, rather then the few thousand it probably was.

the ability to Consume more does not make the world a better place.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fat people are fat for a number of reasons.

unhealthy food is cheap
unhealthy food is fashionable
unhealthy food is heavily advertised (when did you last see an ad for carrots, rice etc)
unhealthy food is available in every city,town, highstreet,corner shop, school,office

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Average_Joe_Sixpack]

Fify years ago I'll bet you the percentage of unskilled labor was much higher in the US than it is now.

I have a hard time believing that ... especially in a country where the largest private employer is Wal-Mart, a country with a 60 Billion+ per month trade deficit and an economy where 75% of GDP is consumer spending. The US is nothing more than a spoiled heiress spending her inheritance.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[Threni]

> People in the first world are living longer due to medical techniques and drugs that didn't
> exist years ago.

That statement is true, but misleading. It's just that so many children didn't make it until their, say, 2nd birthday that the average was massively lowered.

> Exactly how are you going to compel people to do this stuff? Outlaw individual ownership of
> automobiles? Additionally, fruit and veggies aren't that expensive as far as the developed
> countries go.

Didn't you read the original question? I'm the king now - you've got to do what I say otherwise I'll cut your head off! Bicycles will be freely available a la the `white bike` scheme of Amsterdam (only I'll kill bike thieves).

> Why is it the responsibility of the developed world to square this away?

We can do it, so we have a moral responsibility to do it. The developed world spends billions of dollars on the military and entertainment, which would be far more usefully spent on preventing deaths. Why not read up on sleeping sickness in Africa, to pick just one problem.

> This sounds suspiciously like a hint at wealth redistribution.

You say it like it's a bad thing. Where does wealth come from? Natural resources, or services built using them, and largely from undeveloped countries. Why shouldn't this be spread around. You're so interested in people `earning` money/property that you're prepared to allow literally millions of people to die every year from problems which cause practically no deaths at all in developed countries just to maintain your belief in an immoral method of running countries? What percentage of the US GDP is given away each year? If you don't think it should be, why not petition for less. But if it IS the moral thing to do, then compare that with the amount spent on the military.

> Peaceful space exploration must go on for the advancement of the human race.

What's the speed of light? How long does it take at that speed to get to the nearest star? Do the maths - what's the point? Sure, it's interesting - I'm into all that, but at the moment it's not a priority. Each shuttle launch is `worth` millions of human lives. Still think it's worth it? Like I said, we'll get back to it. The universe isn't going anywhere - we're certainly not.

> The reality is that I share more cultural and economic bonds with my fellow citizens,
> therefore their well-being is more important to me.

A very weak argument. On that basis you personally wouldn't find anything immoral about the Nazi genocide of the Jews - unless they had legally binding contracts with you, at which point it would suddenly become immoral.

> You've stated some global problems with
> approximately zero feasible concrete solutions to any of them.

On the contrary, you've just come up with excuses for not making the effort to change anything.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[sammy baby]

Well, yeah, but I haven't seen it phrased so nakedly since...

Well, since this guy.

"At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and Destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.

"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.

"Both very busy, sir."

"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I'm very glad to hear it."

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[ConceptJunkie]

Fify years ago I'll bet you the percentage of unskilled labor was much higher in the US than it is now.

I wouldn't bet that. I'd bet that the so-called "unskilled laborer" of 50 years ago was better educated than the typical burger-flipper, low-level corporate or government bureaucrat, first-teir tech support or Congressman is today.

Have you ever heard of "College education today is like high school education of 50 years ago?" Well, people have been saying that for at least 50 years and there's a lot of truth to it.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[alien_tracking_devic]

It's true. Our nation symbol is no longer the American Eagle, but Paris Hilton.

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[drdewm]

I happen to be one of those people. The trick is that you need to swallow your pride and understand that you are not so bright and work that much harder to keep up with the bright bulbs the best that you can. Reguardless of what overly-hopeful people say not every one can be Michael Jordan or the president or an astronaut etc. Some of us suck and wishing and/or practice won't change that. You do your best, add whatever value that you can and try to be happy with it. Live this and life will be fruitful and more pleasant but if its not then you did your best: Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,. The courage to change the things I can,. And the wisdom to know the difference

Re:Ancient Greek Technology Costs Jobs.

[msouth]

How about blacksmiths that were replaced by the automobiles?

It wasn't really fair to require the poor blacksmiths to carry around the family and a trunkload of groceries anyway. I bet the blacksmiths were glad.

Hmmmm

[antifoidulus]

I wonder if this Neal Goldman was in the AV club during high school and had a crush on a girl named Meg.

English skills?

[tehshen]

"We'll have systems that tap our knowledge by the minute," [Pierre Haren] says. "Productivity could rise by a factor of 10."

That's nice, but which factor? 1 is a factor of 10 :)

Re:Math vs Maths?

[smittyoneeach]

Mathematics - ematic = Maths

well lets just say

[scenestar]

How has mathematics, statistics and other number driven aspects of life impacted you in the last decade?

It hasn't gotten me laid yet.

Re:well lets just say

[massivefoot]

Perhaps you should integrate more.

Be pushed around

[PietjeJantje]

They always advertise it as a field, and sure it's interesting, but as a job, to be a mathematician you're typically in a position where you are a tool for the non-mathematician's. Of course the non-math's want more math's to do the work for them and tell them what to do... but is it a good carreer?

Re:Be pushed around

[elstumpo]

Yes, it is a great career. I have been a corporate mathematician doing various things like the article talks about, for the last 10 years. My job is always interesting enough to make me want to go. Not too many other people can do my job, so I have security. And, there's sufficient demand for my services that if my employer upsets me, I can go elsewhere. And it pays a lot. The whole point of my jobs is that I am expected to be provably correct, and that my suggestions will be followed without much room for debate. The problems only come when people feel threatened, and there is politics and so forth. But if the organization is capable of acting in its best interests, that is exactly what the mathematician is figuring out. S/he says "this is the path of our best interest. I can prove it." Eventually, the business has to do what we say, or go out of business.

To the extent that we're often modeling something, there's wiggle room in the models. Models could be built well or poorly. And the above paragraph is only true if you do a sufficiently good job modeling.

The main impact on me

[Snamh Da Ean]

How has mathematics, statistics and other number driven aspects of life impacted you in the last decade?

It made me go made hairline recede like crazy as I studied calculus in school and at college.

Computational Linguistics

[Vann_v2]

The technique in this article is actually used, too, and can be used on different levels. That is, the BW article says this company uses it to measure the distance between two articles, but you can use it to compare the distance between two words. Here's how.

Let's say you have some corpus with N distinct words in it. For each word w you create a "context vector" vw of length 2N. In the first N positions there are counts for the number of time each word in the corpus appears immediately to the left of the word w, and for the second N positions there are counts of the same for the right context. The angle between any two vectors in this 2N-dimensional vector space produces a measure of the distance between the two words. If you use some kind of dimensionality reduction technique to get a 2-dimensional representation, you can see that although this technique is pretty crude linguistically speaking it does pretty well. Each language has a distinct "shape" in this regard, with similar words grouped together, i.e., in English there might be a cluster of points consisting of "singular nouns," or specific parts of speech, like prepositions. It can sometimes even group words by semantic domain, depending on your corpus.

Remember kids, computational linguistics is fun!

How much more?

[republican gourd]

Article is missing the most important part....

is it 2x more? 3x more? Maybe 5(log n)x^2 more? sin(cos(log (pi) * -1/2)) + e? More importantly, how much has the standard deviation moved from previous years to this one?

Statistics are essential

[Sockatume]

My outlook on the everyday world (especially marketing and the media) has changed immensely since I started getting Stats lectures in my second year at Uni. H. G. Wells was right:

Statistical thinking will one day be as necessary for efficient citizenship as the ability to read or write

It's just unfortunate that so few people do have an understanding of statistics. I've lost count of the newspaper stories, even years-long media-fuelled "controversies"-, which are based entirely on misunderstood, misrepresented, or malformed statistics. "How to Lie with Statistics" should be required reading in high school.

Re:The Pure Profession

[Keck]

And so I slowly started to realize that mathematics were the underlying principle to everything. Maybe you've seen the motion picture Pi and remember the part where the main character has a revelation that everything can be described by math. In my opinion, he was dead right.

I'm a math/sci geek too (do you have to SAY that on /.?) but I want to point out that we are well served to be aware of the limitations of math and logic. Some people put as much faith in logic and our own mathematical knowlege as any fundamentalist zealot puts in their own religion. Reasonable people (and the smartest mathematicians and scientists I've ever seen) realize that math and even logic are human's own inventions, and are limited in what they can be applied to. That said, they are a hugely useful system of describing the natural world and even abstract ideas in a very communicable way -- we've often heard and said that Math is the true international language. Yet, there are statements in math that we know we can neither prove nor disprove -- and conversely, there are things we know to be true (by experience, which Einstein referred to as the ultimate truth) but we know for sure can't be proven!

Google for "Gödel's theorem", or maybe "metamathematics" before knee-jerk replying, please.

Another application for math

[jimand]

statistics, advertising, search engines, and algorithms.

and Texas Hold'em.

Excluded middle

[Anonymous Coward]

It may be just me, but it seems that lots of the traditional computer science curriculum has changed. I remember there being some calculus and statistics with calc requirements. Recently I looked at some school catalogs and was surprised to see that the math requirements for a computer science degree had changed substantially to the point that calc II or III was no longer needed. If the article is true then we're in for a real shortage of programmers who understand the mathematics.

At the same time I'm seeing mathematics positions than seemingly didn't exist before. The odd thing is that they were primarily math positions with some computer language requirements instead of the reverse. Instead of some actuarial positions, there are openings in software houses, animation studios, civil sector, etc..

Guess geeks will have their time in the spotlight again soon. Yay for me.

KLL

Re:The Pure Profession

[RalphLeon]

there are statements in math that we know we can neither prove nor disprove

There called Axioms, and they are needed in all formal logic. If you really don't understand this concept visit:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Axiom.html

Why math is the greatest of all subjects

[nandu_prahlad]

Math is truly the most awsome among all subjects. Learning it offers you the kind of freedom that is unmatched by learning any other subject. Have you noticed how a mathematician can switch easily between multiple areas of study? That's cuz one can apply math to almost every field imaginable from Language (Computational Linguistics) to Biology (Computational Biology). I don't mean to dismiss learning other subjects (it's important to be well rounded) but can any other subject gift you you with such amazing flexibility?

There's beauty and elegance in a mathematical result which will always remain true forever. School kids even today, study about the Pythogoras theorem - a mathematical result that was established more than 2 thousand years ago. You're learning Calculus that was discovered by Newton & Liebniz several hundred years ago. Compare this with other fields like Management where the MBA syllabus keeps changing as newer management techniques and new buzzwords/MBA jargon are invented.

Again, I don't mean to dis MBA dudes. It's just that in an fast paced information age where paradigms are constantly being challenged and new ones being invented, it is reassuring to have a body of knowledge that you can always depend on no matter what.

Seriously! You don't have to be good at math (I'm just a lowly Master's and that too in CS :)) to appreciate the beauty and elegance of this amazing subject.

Math is hurt in the USA by its negative image

[192939495969798999]

I can't imagine how many more kids would learn math and be good at it if it weren't for the whole "math is hard and dumb" attitude of the general public in the USA. I don't think kids go into math thinking it's all that hard, but teachers even tell them it is. When that kid goes home, his parents tell him it is. The media makes math "stupid" and even in cartoons, portrays people that are good at it as social outcasts. How is this helping us in any way? I think the best advance that Math could take is to achieve a positive image in society. If that happened, then its advancements in science could only increase faster.

Re:Math is hurt in the USA by its negative image

[Coryoth]

Too many teachers don't teach applied mathematics, so math becomes boring and hard. Every single forumla you learn from Algebra I to Multivariable calculus and beyond can be used to solve a problem in the very room the student sits.

You know I would say that too many teachers don't teach pure mathematics, so the joy of exploration and discovery and logical thought is lost. Mathematics becomes rote mechanical rules that you unthinkingly chug through to produce some number which is supposed to be important. There is no questioning of why those rules are what they are, why the methods work, and what the structure actually is. The focus is on teaching kids the applications of math and they never get to understand how to think about math, how to think logically, how to explore the structure of our own mental creations. Mathematics is taught with absolutely no sense of wonder, or curiousity.

Teaching kids how to apply mathematics is important, but really not that hard. Teaching kids to see math as something other than a whole list of rules and methods and mechanical applications of formulas - now that takes some real effort. That, however, is what pure mathemathatics can get you.

Jedidiah.

Humans create, Computers execute

[digitaldc]

Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I assure you that mine are greater. - Albert Einstein

I have learned that you can do wonderful and amazing things with machines and math, but machines themselves will never reproduce the creativity, insight, and wonder of the human mind.

Making money as a freelancer mathematician

[Lakedemon]

I would like to know if there is a way to make money out of maths skills, as a freelancer.

I mean, I have a phd and I'm quite good at maths, having solved the 3 problems who where thrown at me in 1 year and a half (instead of the regular 3 years) but what I would like to do is :
solve mathematical problems/bring solutions to people/firms in exchange for hard coin.
Kind like a mathematician freelancer/mercenary : You do the job, you get the money and that's it.

I mean, there are web sites for freelancer artists/web developer/coder. But there isn't one for mathematicians.

So, the only way to make money out of maths (in france) is either to teach it or to research in an university. Either way, you are a salary man.

Man, that sucks.
What is the use for those monsters maths skills, that I patiently honed all these years if I can't even make a little cash out of it/or make more money out of it that the average teacher (that really sucks at research/high lvl maths) ?

Too late

[liangzai]

When I tell a potential employer I know Galois theory, he stares at me for a few seconds, and then asks me "Do you know how to use Excel?". To which I reply that I prefer Mathemathica and rarely touch Microsoft products. Then the interview is over.

When I tell a girl I admire her Riemannesque topology and say her virtues are greater in number than those of the girls of Lesbos combined and raised to the googoolth power, she says: "Dude, you are such a sweetie, but I have to go now".

When I tell my neighbor he can make his wine cellar temperature independent by putting it y meters below the ground, he says "Well, aren't you a smarty, boy!", grins, and then returns home to put on the missis.

Financial industry

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm surprised no one's brought this up yet--but the past decade or so, math has become super attractive in the financial industry.

Math majors from top schools are being recruited (along with other hard sciences, physics and CS) by banks, hedge funds, etc. and getting 6 figures right out of college. No kidding. The story is, about a decade or so ago, some hedge funds decided to try letting some really smart people (i.e. math majors from top schools) handle money. They did so well, they made a fortune and it turned the industry upside-down. Well, that might be an exaggeration, but it's more or less true.

Markets had a number of pricing inconsistencies, etc. in them, and these smart mathy people figured out how to take advantage of them. Lots of algorithms and computer programming found application to managing these hedge funds. To correct for these abuses, the markets had to close the gaps and inconsistencies these hedge funds were abusing.

Although a lot of the market problems have since been cleaned up, a lot of math is going into managing funds to maximize profit. There aren't as many people making millions off of just trading, but there's a lot of jobs in the financial industry for smart math people that still pay extremely well.

The financial industry learned its lesson: math is incredibly useful. This has already been obvious in industries like computer programming, where sophisticated math goes into designing algorithms. In the future, I think we'll continue to see other industries finding out how huge the benefits of math can be.

Re:Math vs Maths?

[gihan_ripper]

This may surprise those of you who assumed that the British contraction is older than the N. American one, but the opposite is in fact true.

The first use of 'math' recorded in the Oxford English Dictionary is in 1849, whereas its earliest recorded entry for 'math' is in 1911, penned by the English War Poet Wilfred Owen

1911 W. OWEN Let. 14 Sept. (1967) 81 The Answers to Maths. Ques. were given us all this morning.

The well-known plural form 'mathematics' is to be compared with terms such as physics and metaphysics. In early use, the subjects were often referred to in the singular, as matamatik, fiskyke, and metaphesyk. In plural, they connoted something entirely different. For instance, physics was the title of Aristotle's collected physical treatises. 'Mathematics' would be used to denote the collection of the various branches of mathematics, such as geometry, algebra, etc. In modern usage, 'mathematic' and 'physic' have fallen by the wayside and the plural forms have taken their place.

Ho! Ho! Ho! That's what they said in the 90's

[another_drone]

I have heard this before. When I was working on a math PhD in the 90's they said the same thing. But then, it was Wall Street calling.

Know math... Yes... But as a platform to an applied field where you will stand tall with a strong math background.

Otherwise, get ready for low pay unless you graduated from MIT, NYU , or Cal Tech in a program designed specifically for the "latest" applied math craze. I watched graduates from a top 10 Applied Math Program grovel for 1 year post-docs. Many went into Comp Sci AFTER receiving their PhD because they did not want to enjoy the bountiful $35K they would get as a post-doc.

By the time a place like Business Week has an article on this, the top math programs located nearby the trend (Read that Boston, NY or Silicon Valley) already have a specialized sub-degree for the trend.

Also, be aware that PhD's tend to prefer hiring students from their adviser or their academic friends. Also a limiting factor for getting a job offer as these high end applied research jobs.

Yep, stick with your applied field and a strong math background.

Not "win-win" *unless*...

[rmcd]

This is a widely-cited and often misquoted (and misunderstood) theorem in economics. "Win-win" in this situation requires that the winners compensate the losers. If you don't pay compensation for the loss (e.g., the salary they would have earned), then you have a winner and a loser, period. You have no way to say that one's gain offsets the other's pain.

The economic theorem says that the monetary gain for the winners is great enough that it is *possible* for the winners to compensate the losers so to leave as well off as before. In this case everyone is at least as well off. But if you don't compensate the losers, you can't say a thing.

Re:The Pure Profession

[Vadim Grinshpun]

You're only partially right. Axioms are statements that (1) can't be proven, and (2) you assume are true, and everything is built upon them. However, there are other, non-axiomatic, statements in any formal system that cannot be proven either true or false. That's what the parent was talking about (hence the mention of the Godel's incompleteness theorem).
BTW, if you're a CS major, you've encountered this in the form of the Halting Problem :)

Whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA

[eepok]

I think you over-estimate the quality of life at the poverty line and all the problems that go along with it. The sense that you give is that people who live under the line have all the amenities everyone else has, but only to a lower quality.

Let me help you out here. I lived with a family of 6 whose yearly average of taxable income of $14,000 (c.2000). We received welfare ($600/month), food stamps ($250/month), and received subsidized rent via HUD ($-400/month). As you can tell, we were below the poverty line.

Now consider the average education level of those under the line. I think my family was a good example having a Vietnam-vet with a GED as a father and a middle-school-educated mother. They were not capable of finding significant income in an area that would allow "people like us" to live.

They eventually got a car-- an '80s junker on a 16% interest loan. We had 2 color televisions with cable. "Why?," you ask? because there is literally NO OTHER WAY OF ESCAPE in a society that focuses around entertainment! A one-time cost of $200 and a monthly cost of $25 is damn reasonable when you consider that most Slashdotters rarely think more than twice about upgrading their system (or buying a new one) with a pricetag of 200+.

Lastly, there's all the qualitative differences in a family that lives below the poverty line. There's frustration (an extreme understatement here) of being stuck and unable to provide. This anger is, more often than not, expressed physically with women and children on the receiving end. There's depression, lack of confidence, in ability to socialize outside of your born-in group as other groups cost money to associate with, no culture of education... there is no hope.

So, before you rain judgement from upon high based on severly miscalculated eyeball-assumptions, give it a shot.

--Ps. The polio thing made me laugh. If you're poor and living in California, you have a limited number of times you can see a physician, emergency room, dentist, or an optometrist in a year. When I was in high school ('96-'00) we had 6 stickers on our Medical tickets. 1) Glasses, 2) Fillings, 3) busted thumb in PE, 4,5,6) Tonsilitis. After that, and with a 104-fever, I was SOL.

Re:Whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA

[MyNymWasTaken]

We had 2 color televisions with cable. "Why?," you ask? because there is literally NO OTHER WAY OF ESCAPE in a society that focuses around entertainment!

I call utter BS!

They're called libraries. You walk in, get a library card and walk out with a book *AT NO ADDITIONAL COST TO YOU*. After you've finished that book, return it and get another one - *still free*! Nowadays, there are almost always free internet connections available as well.

Don't give me that crap about "You just don't know what it's like." I used to have to take my showers, so I could look presentable at menial labor job interviews, at the local campground because I couldn't afford to pay the water bill - much less the cable TV bill.

Stop blaming society for not holding your hand through *every* point in your "oh, woe is me - I'm so pathetic" life.

Re:Whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA

[Frenchy_2001]

I lived with a family of 6 whose yearly average of taxable income of $14,000 (c.2000).[...]We had 2 color televisions with cable.[...] A one-time cost of $200 and a monthly cost of $25 is damn reasonable[...]

So, let me get this straight. You are with a ploor family, desperate for money, below the poverty line and getting helped by the state BUT they blow 20% of their income on cable? Did they also eat out at McDo regularly and buy cigarettes? Because for entertainment value, it does not get any better either.

However, i have new for you: Entertainment does not further anything. It does not allow you to grow, get better and get out of a bad situation. It is just a legal drug that helps you forget your trouble. Troubles dont go away by themselves, you need to face them to solve them, so staying in front of a TV wont solve anything. Neither will bitching or posting on /.

I know people that started with nothing (kicked out of their family home at 16 after being beaten by their dad), but they are successful today. How? They made their choice, got loans and credits, got an education and worked it out. Worked to pay their tuitions and boards, worked in class to succeed and worked and innovated to pay their bills. They could do it, but of course, it was a LOT more difficult than sitting on their butts watching TV and saying how desperate they were.

Life does not always deal you a fair situation and some needs to make more efforts to reach a given point, but USA is a land of opportunities. You can get an education and a job, but it will need LOTS of efforts if you dont get any help (family mostly).

Hope is how you look at things, not what is passed down to you. Every problem has a solution. Some required ungodly efforts to reach it...

(now, let's start the karma bashing...)