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Gay Guild Recruitment Disallowed From WoW?
Fireball394 wrote with a link to an article on the site 'In Newsweekly'. The article, entitled "Blizzard of GLBT gaming policy questions", discusses the application of a harassment warning on a player who was recruiting for a GLBT guild. From the article: "In her follow-up letter to the company, Andrews explained that there was an obvious misunderstanding and that she was not insulting anyone, but merely recruiting for a 'GLBT friendly' guild. The response from Blizzard was, 'While we appreciate and understand your point of view, we do feel that the advertisement of a GLBT friendly guild is very likely to result in harassment for players that may not have existed otherwise. If you will look at our policy, you will notice the suggested penalty for violating the Sexual Orientation Harassment Policy is to be temporarily suspended from the game. However, as there was clearly no malicious intent on your part, this penalty was reduced to a warning.' Blizzard's stance was clear that recruiting for a guild using 'GLBT' was inappropriate as, the company said, it may 'incite certain responses in other players that will allow for discussion that we feel has no place in our game.'"
From what I have read, Blizzard is pretty tight on what sort of character names, etc that they allow. The decision in the article seems to be consistent with their in-game policies.
WoW is a fantasy world and they just want to take the issues of contemporarly life out of it.
It's not like a gay couldn't play WoW, as I'm sure thousands of gay people do play, but rather that recruiting people to a gay guild is adding unnecessary tension. It's like naming a guild "republican lovers" and trying to recruit people in to that kind of guild. I'm sure many people would dislike that too and I'm almost certain Blizzard would act similarly.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
Why should a guild be limited to GLBT? What if someone tried to make a "whites-only" guild? The whole POINT of an online game is that you can get away from your real self and become another persona - a person's sexual orientation, race, creed, color, or taste in music has exactly jack squat to do with the game or the game world.
Let's see... because doing this MIGHT cause other players to harass and discriminate GLBT folks, Blizzard will head this all off by discriminating against GLBT folks.
So now you're allowed to go around calling other people and things gay, but refer to yourself that way, and you're in trouble.
Quality ideas here.
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
is "do they allow other guilds based on sexual orientation?" the Guild of Heterosexual Males? The Guild of White Men From America?
If so, then this decision is wrong. If not, then this is a nonissue and that's that.
Can straight people join it? If no, then it's discriminatory. If yes, then there's no point to it.
I really don't see the point of a guild like this. Sure, clubs like this at Uni are a good idea, but why should your orientation be brought into a game that has nothing to do with sex?
I may have something wrong here, but it seems as though the company is blaming the gay player for harassment that might come from other players. That would be like banning women from playing so that men don't harass them. It seems pretty backwards to me.
San Francisco Photographers
Actually they are really acting within the best interest of most of the people involved. If you go out of your way to create a 'GLBT' guild and advertise it for all to see, then you, and your guild members are certain to become prime target for the rest of the server that are not quite as ok with the alternate sexuality as the guild members.
I'm sure if such a person wanted to create a 'GLBT' guild they could go to one of those forums mentioned in TFA and announce it there, having the effect of reaching a large fraction of the people they wanted to reach while keeping those who have no business with it out. Anything else is just asking for pure grief from the vast majority of the community.
When you consider how many players blizzard may have lost had such a guild come to exist, became publicized, then had all of the members harassed versus the few they will lose over this announcement you should see where I'm coming from.
Christian guilds, why should other communities be blocked.
I guess you think they should sit back down and take the abuse silently like good little homosexuals... I can't believe this received a +4 Insightful on Slashdot.
They can do what they want with the game including make the rules, change the rules, and break the rules. Your options are limited to playing the game they way they want or not playing it. Accept it.
I have two questions here.
That's a nice way of putting it. As a longtime gamer, I can say with assurance that there is a LARGE segment of the MMORPG player population who would not react with maturity and tolerance...I'm not saying that they're bad people, or that they'd necesarrily act that way irl, but when you add in anonymity and the kind of sexual purience you get out of highschoolers (who tend not to react well to stuff like that because they haven't really grown into their sexual identities bla blah), you're bound to get some ugly scenes.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
No. Would some of you dense people read the fucking article? The guild was formed because WoW is rife with homophobic abuse. Yes, Blizzard has a policy against it but it is not enforced. And the guild is "GLBT Friendly" not "GLBT ONLY." What does GLBT Friendly mean? It means guild members can rest assured that they will not receive homophobic harassment from other guild members. It does not mean this is some sort of "gay sex club." Get a fucking grip.
I'm going to fill it full of gay bars, trannie bars, and the like. A core part of the game will be shopping in goth/punk/hellokitty type areas in order to equip your character with all the correct gear for their sexuality. Instead of Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic it'll have Straight-Bi-Gay-RichardSimmons... (yes, this is a joke). It'd get all the business that other games don't want.
I can understand Blizzard's POV - let's not bring these things into the game, it's a game, it's fantasy.
OTOH I can understand that some people might want to be with people who (external to the game) are like them. That's natural. It's like older gamers not wanting to play with punk 14 year olds with attitude problems.
I, for one, think Blizzard is completely off-base.
There's certainly Chinese guilds, French guilds, mature guilds, and 1337 guilds; why not a GBLT guild? Being GBLT isn't about primarily about sexuality, it's about gender roles and common culture. Just as geeks have sites like slashdot, GBLT persons have common forums, movies, and books with which they identify to create common cultural references.
Defined gender roles and attitudes toward them have an integral role in any cooperative community -- real or virtual -- and I believe that it's perfectly reasonable to use this set of common beliefs to form a guild.
(Note: I am not GBLT, but I am friends with quite a few)
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Hmm... maybe I misinterpreted you, but it sounds like you're agreeing that if there's a problem here, it's not with the folks who want to start an LGBT--it's the puerile kids who haven't yet learned how to function in society. So the question is: why is Blizzard supporting the latter instead of the former? I'm guessing because there's a lot more of the latter, and a lot more, to Blizzard, means a lot more money.
But shouldn't people be able to freely associate regardless of what others might like to think of them? I mean it's their choice to be open about it or not.
Save a life, sign your organ donor card.
"While we appreciate and understand your point of view, we do feel that parking your bright red 2006 Ferrari F430 Spider is very likely to result in the theft or vandalism of a car that may not have occured otherwise. If you look at our local and state laws, you will notice the suggested penalty for parking bright red sports cars in seedy neigborhoods is to temporarily jail you. However, as you are just an arrogant, rich prick, this penalty has been reduced to parole and 1000 hours of community services."
Seriously though, this situation is ridiculous. Blizzard is punishing the wrong people here. Harassment of any player (gays, lesbians, straights, americans, canadians, jews, muslims, etc) should not be tolerated. Blizzard apparently has a "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy when it comes to diversity.
-William Brendel
Because the alternative is playing and having to look at a male orc in a loin cloth.
Are all neocons so philosophically unsophisticated or are you just intellectually lazy? This punishes a group that is actively harrased and demeaned in WOW 24/7 who only wished to form a safe haven from pricks like you and WOW punishes them by censoring their recruitment ingame. The story here is that pricks like you need to die off or shut up for civil rights to progress. Take your heterosexual once a week monogomous guilt sex and shove it.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
Blizzard encourages players to report harrasment of any form. There aren't enough GMs to police every single chat message. They rely on player reporting.
And yes, using that type of language is against their terms of service.
So I don't believe your point is valid. If players aren't receiveing punishment it is not necessarily because Blizzard is actively deciding to let them slip by, it's because they don't have the resources to do it, and the players themselves are apathetic towards it.
This one chat message happened to have been caught. Do you think that this is the first advertisement for a GLBT group? This was a routine wrong place, wrong time, got caught language issue that has been blown out of control because so many people feel so strongly about the subject, one way or the other.
This is less about Blizzard's policy than it is about the media and militant people using this event to control their message and how it's portrayed by the media. How else are they going to get their message onto the front page of Slashdot?
-Adam
A lot of people miss the point. Thankfully, other slashdotters get it and have clarified the point in these comments. To me, it seems clear that Blizzard is trying to prevent people from fighting by preventing them from getting to know one another...but they're doing so inconsistently. "For your protection, we are not going to let you identify yourself as being gay." But not... "For your protection, we are not going to let you identify yourself as being xxxx." where xxxx is anything else that might make a person a target for harassment: Christian, Jewish, African-American, Muslim, French, female, etc. The guilds in question are not GLBT-exclusive. They don't prohibit heterosexuals from joining. They essentially have a code of conduct that they make clear in their recruitment efforts. Given the ubiquitous "ghey" and "fag" comments seen in every chat channel in the game, GLBT-Friendly translates to: "We do not tolerate harassment of GLBT people or slurs against them. If you cannot abide by this policy, don't even ask to join our guild. If this policy is acceptable, we welcome you." Why is that different from "We do not tolerate foul language in our guild channel, regardless of the built-in language filter."? It isn't about sex. It isn't about bigots. It isn't about religion. It's about Blizzard's vague and inconsistent application of their own policies in a manner that looks a heck of a lot like discrimination.
If you're going to live a lifestyle that is against nature, sinful and basically sick to the majority of the world then keep it to yourself and you won't have problems. the same books you are refering also tells you that people are not allowed to judge this, it is Gods business. ...and homosexuality is known behaviour among other species on this planet so it is not unnatural. ...and why do you think you are "the majority" ?
I sleep with girls and I'm a guy... If you really need to remind yourself of it, you probably are a gay who do not have the courage to accept it.
--
No, I'm not gay... I would however love to have a pair of good tits.
And if you were principal of a middle school, you'd ban LBGT student groups for the same reason--their existence invites harassment and denigration from the rest of the student body, causing more problems than there would otherwise be. Even though it'd all be the fault of other students, not the LGBTs.
I hope that's not actually what you would do as principal. And I hope that's not what you'd do as Blizzard's CEO, even though I can understand why you would.
You seem to make an assumption that I'm on a given side. I've been beaten while marching for gay rights and have an extensive collection of lingere and corsets in my size. Check out my listed website for a hint of my hobbies. I'm also a large hairy male who is getting married to someone who isn't XX this fall.
I'm all for gays being in game -- I'd love to see a guild of gay Tauren or a guild of Amazon lesbian warriors. And the players would be a mix of men and women who are of all sexual orientation in both sides. Because, in my eyes, they may have made the right decision for the wrong reasons, but it is *still* the right decision: A guild is a group of like minded characters, not a group of like minded players.
Then you would probably get some really good roleplaying going on.
You assume that the gay players are roleplaying gay characters -- how is it good roleplaying if one character is harassing a straight character because his player is gay? Besides, what if a gay player creates a character in the GBLT guild who is intolerant of gays? You're confusing player groups and in-game character groups.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
I'm guessing because there's a lot more of the latter, and a lot more, to Blizzard, means a lot more money.
Yeah, pretty much.
I think Blizzard is also taking the "don't make waves" style of law enforcement. That is, a certain amount of antisocial behavior is allowed, as long as it doesn't rock the boat, so to speak. And conversely, your right to say whatever you want is going to be conditional that it doesn't cause a problem in their pretty little world.
WoW is a lot like Disneyland. It's a part of the real world, and yet it's not. It's all quite fake and intended to create the an illusion (in Disneyland, an idyllic place to take the kids; in WoW a world where you can take on an alternate persona and hack at people with swords) which people pay for the priviledge of experiencing. The Disney folks are probably not going to let you burn the American flag in front of EPCOT Center -- even though it may be your right to do somewhere else -- because a whole lot of other people who are paying to be there don't want to see it. Likewise, Blizzard isn't going to let you set up a GLBT guild, because a lot of other customers would dislike it. (And I suspect they have a fear of being portrayed as a place for perverts in the Conservative media, which could cost them a lot of customers; there are still a lot of people for whom "gay" is synomous with "pervert" or "pedophile," especially in regards to interaction with their children.)
I admit, it's not very fair. However, WoW is essentially a private playground, and they can do what they like in there. Anyone who doesn't like the rules can take their membership fee and go home.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I'm sure someone will argue with me, but as I understand it, being gay basically means that you're sexually attracted to people of the same gender. The "GLBT community" is generally made up of people whose sexuality is nontraditional. Where you fit in that community has to do with your own sexual identity and the sort of sexual identity of the people you want to be sexually intimate with. You don't generally find straight people or asexual people being associated with the GLBT community.
That being said... sex (as an act) has no place in the game. Primary sexual traits (ie. male and female) are unavoidable, so it seems natural to have male and female characters. But you can be male or female without considering sexual orientation or sexual acts. You can't be a member of the GLBT without that. Otherwise, what does it mean to be gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender?
So, as I say, sex (as an act) has no place in the game. Therefore, anything relating to sex (as an act) should be excluded. That's not just GLBT, but ANY kind of sex-act-related topic. It would be just as inappropriate to discuss being straight or any kind of straight-sex related topics. There is no discrimination here.
LOL. Okay, I'll formally state now that I won't accept "make-believe" evidence from a parody site. :-P
Modern copyright is theft of culture from everyone and it retards the progress of the useful arts and sciences.
Oh and gays, no walking hand in hand, that might upset people. White and blacks kissing in public, no sorry, could lead to scenes.
What you suggest is a very slippery slope. You are giving in to the haters. How far are you prepared to give in? What race/religion/orientation can be told to keep quit before you will say enough? Or will you only cry out when it is you who is being told to behave.
No this stuff makes me sick. People like you in my eyes are worse then the open haters, I rather deal with ten neo-nazi's then with one person who says to not upset them.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Everyone who has been part of an openly gay-friendly guild is very aware of how bigoted and homophobic some other players are. They don't need Blizzard's patronizing "concern" to warn them off; they know what they're getting into.
In fact, the awfulness of many other players is very likely exactly why these people have chosen to form or join a gay-friendly guild. They want a place where they can say things like "Sorry, can't play tomorrow, it's my boyfriend's birthday" in guild chat without getting that harrassment from their guildmates as well.
Er, I don't know about you, but personally, I would find a guild advertised as 'non-caucasian' to be exclusionary, racist and offensive.
The very fact that people feel a need for a Gay Lesbian Bisexual Trans(gender/sexual) friendly guild in World of Warcraft (just so the people confused with acronyms know what this is all about) says enough about blizzard.
It is not a very "mature" place resulting in a very intollerant atmosphere. Not just of GLBT people either. WoW is more or less anonymous and this allows people to behave in ways that in real life would earn them a few broken teeth. Rather then do something about this Blizzard instead asks there the victims of the online bullies to keep quiet and not attract attention.
Nice move. Good to see the last 100 years of liberation of the individual was all for nothing. It is still only acceptable to be a while male protestant and everyone else should just be quiet.
What next Blizzard? Women who play your game and are harrased should not tell people they are really female?
People who claim that Blizzard owns WoW and can therefore do what it wants are living in a fantasy world. A MMO is closer to a social club and the law requires clubs to be open to anyone regardless of sex/religion/race/color/sexual orientation. A club that rejects women because they claim that they want to protect the women from being harrassed by their male members would find very little sympathy from the law.
This woman (presumable lesbian) wanted to create a guild that was friendly to people of a different sexuality then heterosexual. From other comments here it is pretty clear that WoW as a whole is not very friendly to that group. She did NOT want to make a guild for GLBT people only! She did not exclude hetero's.
It is sad that this is still needed in 2006. Very sad in fact that even in a place like Amsterdam wich used to be a really open place it is again becoming necessary to make sure GLBT people can feel safe.
Rather then dealing with the haters among its subscribers Blizzard seems to prefer the "don't rock the boat" attitude that made Amsterdam into the city it is today. And paris france. Don't speak out, keep quiet and hopefully the haters will go away. They never do.
I hope canadian lawmakers are watching this and taking the legal steps to get Blizzard in court and punished to hell and back.
Just what is canadian law on this subject? I would imagine that the sport of hockey has a large proportion of homophobic fans, how is this dealt with? Can a gay player be part of a team or is he hooted of the ice?
Ofcourse the slashdot audience consisting mostly of white hetero male christians is not exactly best fit to understand why there would be a need for a special guild for people who do not fit the so-called norm.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Good for them.
So long as they apply it to everyone.
I'm quite gay-friendly.
Gay people have a tendency to bring their persecution down upon themselves.
"LOOK AT ME!!!!! I'M GAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Then they wonder why people think they are assholes.
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
Every time I reload Diablo 2 I'm reminded of why I remove it; "oh yes, I'm surrounded by scum".
My solution to this was simple. I only play games with a few people I know IRL or people I know I get along with from online. I create private games in Diablo 2 and I password protect them. Believe me, this makes Diablo 2 a hell of a shitload better.
In WoW, my guild is restricted to people I know IRL, and a few we have encountered online we care to play with. Fnord the rest of them. It's rare we invite someone into the guild, because it's rare we find someone we don't think is an idiotic brat.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
They're not discriminating against the individuals, they're discriminating against their group. It would be like an LGBT group walking into Burger King with signs and walking around telling everyone what they were and what they stood for, and then setting up base camp by the drink machine.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like it and wish it didn't have to happen, it's just that I believe people should use accurate arguments to defend their beliefs.