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WMF Exploit Sold Underground for $4,000

tero1176 writes "Eweek has a story with information from Kaspersky showing that exploit code used in the WMF malware attack was being peddled on underground sites by rival Russian hacker groups for $4,000 in early December. The first sign of an exploit was traced back to the December 1, 2005, a full month before anti-virus vendors started noticing mysterious WMF files rigged with malicious executable code. It serves as more proof that the market for malware is well and truly alive."

166 comments

  1. Bad Deal by lseltzer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The exploit is a flop. The guy should get his money back.

    1. Re:Bad Deal by ackthpt · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      Oooh! My first first post!

      I don't think that anyone cares about this. They're all reading about this story.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:Bad Deal by hal9000(jr) · · Score: 2, Informative

      The exploit is a flop. The guy should get his money back.

      Huh? It worked just dandy on all the machines I tested on. Well, at least the Metasploit WMF exploit mods did.

      It's not the sellers fault those pesky white hat hackers discovered it so soon. :) Buyer beware!

    3. Re:Bad Deal by lseltzer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It worked, but it was supposed to be the tool of a major outbreak that never materialized, and is now unlikely to.

    4. Re:Bad Deal by grcumb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "It worked, but it was supposed to be the tool of a major outbreak that never materialized, and is now unlikely to."

      True, but it never happened in the same way the Y2K crisis 'didn't happen'. It was prevented by the concerted action of a very large number of people who re-emptively developed and deployed a patch to fill the gap until the vendor-provided one happened along. If it hadn't been for the public dissemination of the risk assessment and analytical data, this could have been a big problem.

      That said, the damage was also mitigated by the fact that the black hats using the exploit decided not to package it in a highly virulent form. Nonetheless, the potential for widespread damage was very real - and remains a danger to those few who have yet to patch their systems.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    5. Re:Bad Deal by DrSkwid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you buy an exploit for $4000, chances are you already have a target.

      And, you've probably bought one before and made more than the $4000 you are about to spend.

      Perhaps they got the trade secrets / passwords they were after in a few hours, not the month it took to become Zero Day, lol, now there's a misnomer !

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    6. Re:Bad Deal by dekemoose · · Score: 0, Troll

      Either that, or like the Y2K crisis it was never that big of a deal to begin with.

    7. Re:Bad Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Over on isc.sans.org, they mentioned a counter with something like half a million hits to it. These were people infected by a WMF exploit.

      While not all of them may have been unique, the Internet surely has quite a few more spam relays. For all the time you spend wondering why the computers didn't just give up and die, just remember: they don't want to kill the machines, they want to 0wn them.

      And their armies continue to grow larger.

    8. Re:Bad Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, I've never seen a Troll with a score of 5 before.
      Yeah, go ahead and mod me Offtopic- I just thought this was really weird

    9. Re:Bad Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the long, or in the short term? Because I think it's a growing trend.

      http://ddanchev.blogspot.com/2006/01/was-wmf-vulne rability-purchased-for.html (30th January)

    10. Re:Bad Deal by lseltzer · · Score: 1

      Complete horse crap. The counter was an ad banner counter for an unscrupulous ad network on a lot of porn sites that served the graphic. The counter ticks even if the client is not vulnerable.

    11. Re:Bad Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "It worked, but it was supposed to be the tool of a major outbreak that never materialized, and is now unlikely to."

      How would you know?

      I mean, OK in this case you can probably look at various historical logged data, scanning for messages with vulnerability-exploiting code in them. But generally, if something doesn't send a thousand packets per second, doesn't make your computer run slow, and does't make XP reboot more than usual, would anyone even notice?

      Maybe this was the first worm to be written by someone who wasn't using it as a spambot? Maybe some of these exploits are being used by "intelligence" agencies rather than by scammers. How can anyone know that their computer is trustworthy, if exploits need to DDOS a website before people notice them?

  2. Maybe they should get involved... by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Funny
    It serves as more proof that the market for malware is well and truly alive."

    Do you suppose Microsoft will try to enter this market, too?

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by ZeroExistenZ · · Score: 1

      Only after google went there and Microsoft has to "keep up" again.

      --
      I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
    2. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by hal9000(jr) · · Score: 0
      Do you suppose Microsoft will try to enter this market, too?

      <obligatory microsoft bash>They established that market with the introduction of Windows 1.0</obligatory microsoft bash>
    3. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by ackthpt · · Score: 1
      Only after google went there and Microsoft has to "keep up" again.

      We'll call it the Ecch-Box

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    4. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Do you suppose Microsoft will try to enter this market, too?

      They already have! Look at the Carma Sutra worm. Tomorrow it goes crazy, and you can't get the patch/update unless you are paid up on your security/extortion money already. If that does not work they may try your knee caps next.

    5. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by pHatidic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Am I the only one who thinks it's scary that a zero day exploit with the potential to take society back to the stone age sold for less than the cost of a nice flat panel TV? Assuming the laws of supply and demand hold on the black market, it means that opportunities to destroy 90% of the word's IT infrastructure are common as dirt.

    6. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by hunterx11 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it was really tough back in the 40's. I don't know how my grandparents survived using stone tools. But there are greater concerns than that. Have you ever seen the movie WarGames? Apparently we have to worry about computer hackers launching nuclear missiles too.

      --
      English is easier said than done.
    7. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think that these stories just show how out of touch these security 'experts' are. We have exploits for sale online that end up in the wild. How long does it take the security/antivirus companies to start taking notice?

      Remember the Sony Rootkit fiasco? How many thousands of computers did that compromise and for how many months before they found out about it? And then how many of the AV vendors jumped at the chance to list an item from a major record label as 'malware'?

      Then consider how slow the AV companies were to detect spyware. "Oh, it's installed at the user's choice, we shouldn't be detecting or removing it." Yeah, thanks a lot you braindead idiots, it's not like the same spyware might use security exploits as an install vector, same as certain worms and viruses.

      Can you tell that I have a small amount of contempt for these 'experts'? They've even managed to convince the users that their products are a neccessity, instead of a too-little-too-late bandaid measure.

    8. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by jzeejunk · · Score: 1

      no i think Google is more likely to enter this marke too

      --
      sarchasm
    9. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if they don't, Google will.

    10. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by geobeck · · Score: 1
      Do you suppose Microsoft will try to enter this market, too?

      Enter it? They created it!

      --
      Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
    11. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by Pollardito · · Score: 1

      i heard that they may start a licensing program for exploits. not to make money or anything, they just want to lock out hobbyists they don't have time for

    12. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by dekemoose · · Score: 1

      It's not a patch, there is no patch. You can, however, get the update for Microsofts security tools which will remove it. Or, you can run one of the removal tools from the anti-virus vendors.

      ftp://ftp.f-secure.com/anti-virus/tools/f-force.zi p

    13. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by baKanale · · Score: 1

      Do you suppose Microsoft will try to enter this market, too?

      Either way they win!

      Kinda like how Bill Gates owns Apple stock.

    14. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just use Linux, I don't have those Windows problems.

    15. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by geekoid · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes. you are the only one here that thinks the problem would through us back to the stone ages.

      You are hear by forbidden from ever using statistics or percentages again.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    16. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by GodBlessTexas · · Score: 1

      Security intelligence companies that gather information about exploits and malware are already offering bounties for new exploits that haven't been found in the wild yet so they can scoop their competitors, and $5,000 US is about right for what most of them pay. What makes this any different?

      --
      Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
    17. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Funny

      You are hear by forbidden from ever using statistics or percentages again.

      You are the only one here who thinks hereby is spelled "hear by" or throw is spelled "through". *

      You are hereby forbidden to use the English language in a pedantic and patronising manner ever again.

      * Probably not true

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    18. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by TechnoGuyRob · · Score: 1

      No, but it's certainly the spine of the market.

    19. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by Jimmy_B · · Score: 1

      *Ahem*

      You are hereby forbidden to use the English language in a pedantic and patronising manner ever again.

      That should be:
      You are hereby forbidden from using the English language in a pedantic and patronising manner ever again.

    20. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by legirons · · Score: 1

      "Am I the only one who thinks it's scary that a zero day exploit with the potential to take society back to the stone age"

      I wonder if people will still be saying that "Linux isn't ready for the desktop" when all the Linux desktops are still running and the Windows users' files have been deleted by the 8943rd worm this decade...

    21. Re:Maybe they should get involved... by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1

      That should be:
      You are hereby forbidden from using the English language in a pedantic and patronising manner ever again.


      Why?

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  3. What, you expected... by Orrin+Bloquy · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...open source exploits for a commercial OS?

    Joke, don't waste your mod points here.

    --
    "Made up/misattributed quote that makes me look smart. I am on /. and I must look smart."
    1. Re:What, you expected... by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      GPLed exploit code

      Googd luck trying to sue the bastards who modify but don't give back to the community.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:What, you expected... by Net_Wakker · · Score: 1
      Googd luck
      I think your fingers remember typing "google" too often.
  4. Metasploit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Idiots should've used metasploit. It had it for a long time.

  5. Access to this market by davidgrouchy · · Score: 5, Funny

    Will my AT&T "platinum," "gold" and "silver" levels of Internet access provide access to this underground market ?

    1. Re:Access to this market by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sorry, but no.

      Just wait till you get your next AOL Platinum trial CD in the mail. Then you'll be good.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
  6. Ah, Windows by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    As usual, Mac and Linux users are unaffected and wonder why everyone relies on such unreliable software. And the world turns...

    --
    "Sufferin' succotash."
    1. Re:Ah, Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nor my DOS computer

    2. Re:Ah, Windows by Thundersnatch · · Score: 1

      Umm... how about these file format bugs, which could be exploited just by opening/viewing files on Linux or OSX?

      PNG ZIP GIF

      File parsing vulnerabilites are certainly as prevalent on Linux and OSX as Windows. It seems that most worm writers don't bother attacking these, though, as Linux and OSX combined make up a very small percentage of client workstations.

    3. Re:Ah, Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These vunerabilities may exist, however, since no one is exploiting them, I will be happily surfing on my Mac while you are freaking out about the information you lost and the time it takes you to reinstall your swiss cheese-like operating system.

    4. Re:Ah, Windows by Thundersnatch · · Score: 1
      ...since no one is exploiting them...

      How, exactly, would you know they're not being exploited? You Mac guys have no AV software, right? And I'll bet you allow all outbound connections from your machine to the internet. Do you have an IDS to warn you of malicious traffic?

      An attack doesn't have to be a worm. And it doesn't necessarily have to make itself easily visible by spewing megabits per second of traffic or slowing your machine appreciably.

  7. Russians eh? by Dragon+of+the+Pants · · Score: 4, Funny

    In Soviet Russia, code exploits you!

    1. Re:Russians eh? by dasnov · · Score: 3, Insightful

      how many times will 'jokes' like this be modded funny?

    2. Re:Russians eh? by Hitokiri · · Score: 1

      I think they were moderating the sig.

    3. Re:Russians eh? by caluml · · Score: 0, Redundant

      In Soviet Russia, you exploit hackers!

    4. Re:Russians eh? by miffo.swe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The whole point of jokes like that is they get funnier the more worn out and lame they get. They arent supposed to be funny in themselves. I suppose its a cultural thing. I cant stand slapstick and US humour with pie throwing and at the same time i cant understand why someone dont think the dead parrot with Monty Python is hilarious.

      --
      HTTP/1.1 400
    5. Re:Russians eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, that one isn't half bad. I like the ring of "exploit" in this context.

    6. Re:Russians eh? by user24 · · Score: 1

      don't you mean ex-Soviet?

      ---
      and yes /. sometimes I *can* write a reply in less than 15 seconds.

    7. Re:Russians eh? by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      for as long as they are funny

      f007

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    8. Re:Russians eh? by Wolvie+MkM · · Score: 0

      Yes... That's what we wanted you to Believe!!

      --
      I Like Pie...
    9. Re:Russians eh? by blincoln · · Score: 1

      I understand this phenomenon, but I don't think the "in Soviet Russia..." joke is a good example of it. "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" is one that gets better every time IMO.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    10. Re:Russians eh? by BBobberson · · Score: 1

      Your comment is rated at 0!?

      Does no one here watch the Simpsons?

      what is the world coming to...

      --
      12 steps is too long. My ideal plan is: 1) Quit 2) Relapse 3) ??? 4) Profit!
    11. Re:Russians eh? by MadUndergrad · · Score: 2, Funny

      Also the fact that things like the Spanish Inquisition are used so infrequently these days that when one actually is used it's that much more effective. Last time I said "supposing two carried it together" it got quite a few laughs.

    12. Re:Russians eh? by Ninjaesque+One · · Score: 1

      Nope. Not really. We're nerds, you see. . ..

      --
      Ninjas and pirates. How piquant.
    13. Re:Russians eh? by Wolvie+MkM · · Score: 0

      Thank You!! I feel like it's being wasted here! hehe

      --
      I Like Pie...
    14. Re:Russians eh? by milimetric · · Score: 1

      here's the thing. This joke isn't funny unless it's true the other way. In this case... people don't exploit code... got it?
      It's really not that hard of a concept. Something like "In Soviet Russia, car drives you". That works. Or one I invented: "In Soviet Russia, Market sells YOU". Just so you know for the future, jokes have to make sense.

  8. Oops... by Pheersome · · Score: 0

    more proof

    You misspelled "evidence".

    --
    Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.
    1. Re:Oops... by cburman · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I just came up with the word "guessvertisement".

      No, I don't know either.

      Sorry.

    2. Re:Oops... by sp0rk173 · · Score: 1

      Props go to you. I hate when people use the word "proof", when they should use "Evidence". It's extremely misleading.

  9. I wonder.... by up2ng · · Score: 1

    I wonder how much someone from an A/V company paid "Melissa" to leave the guy who wrote the virus/worm ?

    Is it just me or does it seem like there is no money to be made with this "underground" stuff. $20 for Win NT/2000 source $4,000 for this.
    Maybe he should sue Apple, I have to believe he bought an iPod with his new found treasure, and we all know it kills ears dead http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=175984&cid= 14627254

    --
    Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion, you must set yourself on fire.
  10. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  11. Windows Only? by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Interesting
    As usual, Mac and Linux users are unaffected and wonder why everyone relies on such unreliable software. And the world turns...

    So you think Mac and Linux are as unlikely to be unaffected by such?

    While it might be hard to purposely code exploits into Windows and Mac, if you were an insider plotting to take advantage of it some day and don't mind losing your job over it. Isn't it more possible to pull a fast one on Open Source, assuming you covered your tracks well enough the few would find it on first glance.

    I remember a mud client, early version of Tintin, IIRC, which would make all players shout "Snowy rules, OK" if a client saw some particular text. Not necessarily as bad as it could have been, someone could code the client to [remove all, drop all, flee] on a command if they had wanted. People only became aware of the stunt after the coder logged onto a mud and said "yo"

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    1. Re:Windows Only? by Monkelectric · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Haha you're the kind of person that thinks anyone cares what happens in a mud :)

      --

      Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

    2. Re:Windows Only? by user24 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Already tried - a little while ago someone tried to slip a backdoor into the linux kernel.

      Fortunately, the backdoor was caught via exactly the kind of peer review that open source allows.

      see http://kerneltrap.org/node/1584

      with open source, it's easier to get trojaned code in, but harder for it to stay there. on the reverse, who knows what could be lurking in MS code? I quote:

      "A senior Microsoft Corp. executive told a federal court last week that sharing information with competitors could damage national security and even threaten the U.S. war effort in Afghanistan. He later acknowledged that some Microsoft code was so flawed it could not be safely disclosed."
      (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,5264,00.asp)

    3. Re:Windows Only? by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      "A senior Microsoft Corp. executive told a federal court last week ..."

      Did he say "we would dearly love to release our Source Code, but we can't because ..."

      MS are convicted criminals. In legal speak you can't say "they are of good character" ergo, anything they tell you must be taken as a potential lie.

      That Windows Source has undisclosed bugs and exploits is not news so they can use that information to their advantage, not anyone elses.

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    4. Re:Windows Only? by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 1

      So you think Mac and Linux are as unlikely to be unaffected by such?

      Well, OS X at least, because any kind of system changes that are often required by these trojans to hook themselves into the system gives either a password prompt or just doesn't work at all. Root isn't even enabled on default installs of OS X. There's no registry to bury arcane system-hook entries in either.

      I'd imagine in Linux such system attacks just don't work since they have no way to hook in and propagate, but it's been about a couple of years since I used Linux.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    5. Re:Windows Only? by AndroidCat · · Score: 4, Funny
      I remember a mud client, early version of Tintin, IIRC, which would make all players shout "Snowy rules, OK" if a client saw some particular text.

      Not unlike Slashdot where certain text will cause all readers to post "All your base", "Soviet Russia", "..only old people", "3. Profit!" comments.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    6. Re:Windows Only? by TrancePhreak · · Score: 1

      Who needs root to email or wipe personal data? It's not really that simple of a question. It because quite a bit easier when one is found, but until then we can only wonder if it is possible.

      --

      -]Phreak Out[-
    7. Re:Windows Only? by realTremens · · Score: 1

      Offtopic but... Interview with Maynard by Loder Loder: What do you make of the current state of the music business, and the illegal downloading the record companies say is siphoning off their profits? Keenan: There is still a future with music, because people want music. But I don't know if the record labels will be involved. The panic you're seeing now is basically coming from the labels trying to figure out how they're gonna monopolize and manipulate and suck the blood out of artists anymore. Loder: Are you opposed to file-sharing? Keenan: Not necessarily. But I wish people would realize what an artist normally makes on the sale of an album. Nowadays, you have to sell, like, half a million or a million records just to break even. And how many bands sell a million records? Not that many.

    8. Re:Windows Only? by lebski · · Score: 1

      I say it's about time we put together a consortium of the brightest minds and programmers to end this once and for all. Our goal? To create a Mac/Linux vunerability worm and put an end to this debate - there must be a common vunerability out there somewhere. Smug bastards.

    9. Re:Windows Only? by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Billy Howerdel on piracy:

      "What are your feelings on piracy, internet or otherwise?
      Like anyone else that works hard on their art, I'm against it, as I would be against any kind of stealing."

      Maynard Keenan on piracy:
      "My music is not yours to give away."

      From a 2001 interview linked in the Wikipedia article on Tool:

      NYROCK:
      There's a lot of talk about the Napster controversy. How do you view the new technology? After all, with Tool you were one of the less commercial bands in the music scene.

      MAYNARD:
      In a way, it does destroy the music scene, not just the record companies, even more the artists, the people who write the songs and who don't get paid. I think there are a lot of other industries out there that might deserve being destroyed. The ones who get hurt by MP3s are not so much companies or the business, but the artists, people who are trying to write songs.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    10. Re:Windows Only? by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

      say it's about time we put together a consortium of the brightest minds and programmers to end this once and for all. Our goal? To create a Mac/Linux vunerability worm and put an end to this debate - there must be a common vunerability out there somewhere. Smug bastards

      What, and let them know it existed? That is crazy talk. They might patch it and we won't be able to check out their documents and porn collections anymore.

      In all honesty, just imagine how much of this could exist on any platform. It only seems the dumb hackers and virus authors that ever get noticed or caught.

      What about the smart ones that leave no tracks and don't flash "Legalize Pot" on the screen the next time the user restarts their computer?

      Mac/*nix users - these is not the post you are looking for. -*Waves hand using a simple Jedi Mind Trick*

    11. Re:Windows Only? by realTremens · · Score: 1

      I couldn't find the interview you referenced, but if it's factual than his view has changed. Don't believe half the stuff you read on wikipedia. http://www.mtv.com/bands/a/a_perfect_circle/news_f eature_040122/

    12. Re:Windows Only? by dfinster · · Score: 1
    13. Re:Windows Only? by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Assuming libwmf implemented the WMF standard to specification, ImageMagick + libwmf have the same vulnerability since it's a design vulnerability, not an implementation bug. Open Source software won't protect you from these kinds of issues.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    14. Re:Windows Only? by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Wiping personal data isn't profitable. Selling personal data to the highest bidder is.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    15. Re:Windows Only? by patio11 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and peer review also caught that exploit in libpng after scant decades of use! Why, if that had been a Microsoft library, it would have taken... more decades!

    16. Re:Windows Only? by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 1

      http://www.nyrock.com/interviews/2000/apc_int.asp

      That's the interview linked on Wikipedia. Band members have made similar statements. Ripping artists off is just making sure they don't get paid for their art.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    17. Re:Windows Only? by TrancePhreak · · Score: 1

      Yes, thus the emailing of personal data.

      --

      -]Phreak Out[-
  12. And who is surprised by theCat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There have been shadowy glimpses of this "other economy" for a while, in the bot army cottage industry and the various rackets where popular sites are threatened with black-out if they don't pay for "protection". But all that is just the warmup to the big show.

    Organized crime has found the internet, and they seem to like what they see. It's just like one huge, dark alley lined with endless smoke-filled lounges. Lots of seamy places to meet up. Anonimity if you want it. Under-the-table dealings. Faceless bosses and eager young turks with itchy trigger fingers.

    The perfect growth media for scum and parasites.

    --
    =^..^= all your rodent are belong to us
    1. Re:And who is surprised by grasshoppa · · Score: 2, Funny

      Organized crime has found the internet, and they seem to like what they see. It's just like one huge, dark alley lined with endless smoke-filled lounges. Lots of seamy places to meet up. Anonimity if you want it. Under-the-table dealings. Faceless bosses and eager young turks with itchy trigger fingers.

      The perfect growth media for scum and parasites.


      You misspelled AT&T a few times in there.

      --
      Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    2. Re:And who is surprised by Amouth · · Score: 2, Funny

      oh be fair and leave the white house out of this.. you know W can't read

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    3. Re:And who is surprised by WinterSolstice · · Score: 1

      So the internet is basically Tatooine? That rocks!

      -WS

      --
      An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
    4. Re:And who is surprised by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Organized crime has found the internet

      I suddenly had a vision of Robert DeNiro in "Analyze This!", saying "Get with the times? What do you want to do, start a fuckin' web page?"

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    5. Re:And who is surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot something important - the almost endless supply of rubes begging to be fleeced.

    6. Re:And who is surprised by the_furman · · Score: 1

      I think that you're taking the analogy way the hell too far. Think of it, this exploit was one of the more effective Windows exploits for a while - at least of those that I remember - and it sold for a measly 4000 bucks. This is way too little for any serious criminals to get involved. While I don't know the exact prices, I'm sure that it is much much easier to generate returns of this scale by selling small quantities of drugs, which is easier, takes much less education and skill, and is a lot less tracable. Once the figures jump by an order of magnitude or two, we can talk about serious organized crime. For now, it's still a loose network of antisocial teenagers with entirely too much time on their hands.

    7. Re:And who is surprised by Dr.Syshalt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Organized crime"? Oh, no. I know such guys - not in person, but I've had "talks" with them online - they are surprisingly blunt with us, russian security specialists and webmasters. They are mostly young (17-25) russians, living in exUSSR republics (Estonia, Ukraine), usually jobless - or even if they have a job, an income is usually very low. They are just geeks who have chosen a dark side of the Force.

  13. Why would anyone pay when you can just simply... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... open up IE on a fresh Windows XP installation and let 'er rip!

  14. really, you don't say? by corbettw · · Score: 1

    It serves as more proof that the market for malware is well and truly alive.

    No kidding, they've got a whole aisle over at Fry's for this stuff. No, not the anti-viral stuff. Look over in the office productivity and word processing section. They even bundle it together sometimes!

    --
    God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  15. Security Through Obscurity, anyone? by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 1

    So, let's hear someone argue against full disclosure now, eh?

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
    1. Re:Security Through Obscurity, anyone? by borawjm · · Score: 1

      So, let's hear someone argue against full disclosure now, eh?

      I'm fairly confident that Microsoft would not be able to keep up with the wave of bugs discovered once/if they do release their source. They have a hard time keeping up as it is.

    2. Re:Security Through Obscurity, anyone? by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      Well, there are two possibilities:

      Either a white hat discovers a vulnerability when it's already known by some black hats or the vulnerabity isn't known by any blackhats yet.

      In the first case, full disclosure means that everyone will know it, which will allow all the black hats to exploit the public with it before the company has a chance to fix it and deploy (or at least try) the fix. Those are the disadvantages - the only advantage I see is that no black hats will be able to make money selling the vulnerability information. Conclusion - the world loses, the black hats win.

      In the second case, it's really the same as the first one, with the exception that no black hats were exploiting the vulnerability before.

      What really are the advantages of full disclosure in your mind? I can only see it being useful on those cases where the vendor has known and ignored the vulnerability for months - it forces them to fix it and therefore improves the situation if the first case I presented is the true one for the vulnerability in question.

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    3. Re:Security Through Obscurity, anyone? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      With full disclosure, users can be warned ahead of time.

      also, with full disclosure companies won't be able to ignore it to begin with.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Security Through Obscurity, anyone? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      yes, but the consumer backlash might finally be enough for Microsoft to use better techniques in developing their OS to minimize bugs.
      Or they'll throw up their hands, and use BSD with their own GUI.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:Security Through Obscurity, anyone? by theLOUDroom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In the first case, full disclosure means that everyone will know it, which will allow all the black hats to exploit the public with it before the company has a chance to fix it and deploy (or at least try) the fix.

      BZZZZT! WRONG!

      The only people going to be exploited in this case are the people who CONTINUE TO USE THE SERVICE DESPITE PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS INSECURE.

      Imagine there's a server out there with all your financial infomation on it. If someone gets access to it you'll be ruined. Do you really want to just *hope* that no one takes advantage of the vunerability, OR would you rather they just unplug that box until the fix is ready in 24 hours.

      Full disclosure puts the pressure where it belongs (better fix it before I switch to a different platform) and allows users to make an informed decision about what software to use.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    6. Re:Security Through Obscurity, anyone? by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      So you're suggesting that everyone stops using windows/linux everytime a vulnerability is found?

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    7. Re:Security Through Obscurity, anyone? by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      So you're suggesting that everyone stops using windows/linux everytime a vulnerability is found?

      I would suggest that everyone uses a multi-tiered approach to security, and if this fails, shut down that part of the system until a fix is availible. In the case where you're using a poorly designed system that would not allow you shut that portion down, you'll have to weigh the risk of being owned vs the convenience of staying operational.

      People who really care about staying up already have redundant hardware. Provided you stick to standard technologies, it's not impossible to have two different codesbases for most of the network functions you will be performing. (Use Opera until Mozilla is patched, etc.)

      In the vast majority of cases, you're not talking about shutting down the whole system, but instead shutting down a specfic windows service, apache module, etc. Often there's even a workaround available, such that a reasonably competent system adminsitrator can keep using the same software, but protect themselves (or their clients) from being exploited.

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    8. Re:Security Through Obscurity, anyone? by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      You're obviously just thinking about servers, not personal computers...

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
  16. Congratulations. You are a winner! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Oooh! My first first post!

    And you get your first first offtopic post too... for free!

  17. The hacking world. by oztiks · · Score: 2

    It just goes to show how much the underground actually retains as far as exploit code is concered. Makes you think what else is circulating which the general public doesnt know about.

    1. Re:The hacking world. by CrossChris · · Score: 1

      There are rumours circulating of malware that removes or wrecks "pirated" copies of some brands of software. The Windows exploits used HAVE NOT been patched yet, and probably won't be - after all it's a GREAT way for Microsoft to guarantee their income!

  18. The War Against Spam by Phroggy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is a huge issue that the general public is completely unaware of. Most people still believe that viruses are created as an annoying prank by kids with something to prove. This may be true in some cases, but most of the malware out there now is created for a very specific purpose: building a botnet that can be sold for cold hard cash to the highest bidder. Who's buying them? Spammers.

    It used to be that spammers would look for open relay servers in third-world countries, and let those servers do all the work of actually sending the messages. The server administrators either didn't care, or didn't know how to fix the problem, and the language barrier made things difficult. So, people started making blacklists of known open relays, and just refusing any mail that came from those IPs. Spammers would keep finding more open relays, and the blacklists grew.

    Eventually, mail servers started coming pre-configured not to allow relaying, and as servers were upgraded, spammers had to move on. Spammers started commissioning worms, paying people to write software that would infect Windows machines remotely over the Internet, and open up a backdoor for the spammers to access. Suddenly you've got hundreds of thousands of IP addresses responsible for sending spam, with many of them on dynamic IPs. There's no good way to blacklist them all, since they keep changing!

    Enter Windows XP Service Pack 2, with a software firewall enabled by default. As people upgrade, worms like Code Red and Nimda are no longer effective. So what's next? Spreading viruses through e-mail, IM, and the Web.

    So, look for improvements in antivirus software in the next couple of years, as the war against spam continues. Then look for the spammers to find a new way to get their crap into your inbox.

    --
    $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
    $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    1. Re:The War Against Spam by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Enter Windows XP Service Pack 2, with a software firewall enabled by default. As people upgrade, worms like Code Red and Nimda are no longer effective. So what's next? Spreading viruses through e-mail, IM, and the Web.

      You left out something important: Outlook express would execute code by default, so email was kind of the de facto vector for virus propagation until they started closing down OE [somewhat] and that's when worms really took off.

      Before that, it was mostly viruses attached to programs. You'd attach a new virus to some really desirable warez and upload the stuff to a BBS. The BBS owner would run the software and the virus would attach itself to lots of other software, any time they repacked it for their chosen archive format...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:The War Against Spam by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      Before that, it was mostly viruses attached to programs. You'd attach a new virus to some really desirable warez and upload the stuff to a BBS. The BBS owner would run the software and the virus would attach itself to lots of other software, any time they repacked it for their chosen archive format...

      That was a different kind of virus, not sponsored by spammers. Back then, it really WAS created by kids with something to prove, and there was no money in it.

      You're right about Outlook Express (although I think Outlook was even more vulnerable than OE was), but again, I think this was mostly before the spammers got involved.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    3. Re:The War Against Spam by AndroidCat · · Score: 1
      The BBS owner would run the software and the virus would attach itself to lots of other software, any time they repacked it for their chosen archive format...

      I think you mean each time they inserted an advertisement for their BBS into every archive that passed through. It wasn't uncommon to download zips with ads for several different boards.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    4. Re:The War Against Spam by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Actually, you don't have to unpack a zip to add a comment. It's only if you're changing to rar/ace/zoo/whatever (I used LHA, in the short time I ran anything, but it was pre-RAR) that your executables are necessarily exposed.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:The War Against Spam by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

      although I think Outlook was even more vulnerable than OE was

      Depends on the version, Pre 2000 Outlook, ya probably, but in 2000 Microsoft started locking attachments and in page HTML abilities from the users by default, even if the user assumed them to be safe. For example, a .url, .vbs, .exe - etc would not be able to be opened or retreived in Outlook even if the user wanted the file.

    6. Re:The War Against Spam by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Well, I wouldn't know. My BBS software ran on Coherent and was immune to viruses. :)

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    7. Re:The War Against Spam by CRiMSON · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry :)

      --
      oogly boogly!
  19. DRM needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ironically, copies of the exploit were pirated by a group of Chinese hackers and sold on Ebay for pennies on the dollar...

  20. A "Do we report it" Story by OctoberSky · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is one of those "Do we, the media, report it?" stories.
    This article is pretty meaningless as far as the bigger picture goes, and it probably could have gone unpublished in my mind and no one would have really cared. But it may do more damage than good by being published.
    This article shows, and maybe it's because I work with criminals all day (Public Defenders office), that writing malware pays. Before it was for notoriety or to prove you could or to piss people off, but now it can provide an income source and I think we will be seeing more of it from now on just because people are going to be trying to make a buck off of it.
    We live in a socitey where a Million-Dolllar-Homepage gets filled (it recently did), where the Gotti family has its own TV show and where Carrot top is a rich man. Our lust for money leads us down the less then friendly paths, and this article reports, once again... that crime does infact pay.

    1. Re:A "Do we report it" Story by E-Rock · · Score: 1

      Yea, but everyone already knew that (crime pays). Luckily, finding security holes in products is hard work and that keeps most of the criminally inclined away.

    2. Re:A "Do we report it" Story by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      You only have to look at the history of the world and where the govts. of Europe came from.

      My govt. is the ashes of the 1066 invasion of England by France, definitely a crime. Our Royal Family are some of the world's richest people. They didn't amass that fortune through hard work, sweat and toil. Their ancestors killed people for it. Plain and simple.

      Crime pays, it even pays you!

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    3. Re:A "Do we report it" Story by odyaws · · Score: 1
      But it may do more damage than good by being published. This article shows, and maybe it's because I work with criminals all day (Public Defenders office), that writing malware pays. Before it was for notoriety or to prove you could or to piss people off, but now it can provide an income source and I think we will be seeing more of it from now on just because people are going to be trying to make a buck off of it.
      Seems to me that the folks who are capable of writing (good) malware are likely to already be pretty aware of how well it pays. I'm not too worried about some common criminal reading this news and thinking "holy cow, there's a new career for me!"
      --
      Still trying to think of a clever sig...
  21. Not that kind of full disclosure. by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 1

    I meant full disclosure as in releasing the details of an exploit as soon as it's found, instead of keeping it covered up until a fix is released.

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
  22. Hmm.. by punkr0x · · Score: 3, Funny

    So is windows exploits are worth $4,000 a pop, and Bill Gates is worth something like $50 billion, that adds up to... 12.5 million windows exploits. That number seems a little low, must be not all of them are worth 4 grand.

  23. More expensive with Vista by jbeaupre · · Score: 2, Funny

    It will cost an extra $500 to get set up to sign your malware in order for it to install. Good thinking Microsoft. That extra 12.5% tax will make it totally uneconomical.

    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  24. 2 weeks != a full month by unholy1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From summary: "The first sign of an exploit was traced back to the December 1, 2005, a full month before anti-virus vendors started noticing mysterious WMF files rigged with malicious executable code."

    From article: "The first sign of an exploit was traced back to the middle of December 2005, a full two weeks before anti-virus vendors started noticing mysterious WMF files rigged with malicious executable code..."

    Oh... actually, to be fair, the article does carry on to say: "...it was most likely that the vulnerability was detected by an unnamed person around Dec. 1, 2005. However, it took a few days for the exploit enabling random code to be executed on the victim machine to be developed and put on the market."

    meh. nm.
  25. in soviet swedenuckistan... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    ....dead parrot bakes pie and throws it at YOU!

  26. WMF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Weapons of Mass Fraudulence?

  27. D;oh by stunt_penguin · · Score: 1

    I misread that as 'WMDs Exploit sold underground for $4,000'.

    Of course, WMDs would read 'WMDs exploit sold by administration for $Several hundred billion '

    --
    When the posters fear their moderators, there is tyranny; when the moderators fears the posters, there is liberty.
    1. Re:D;oh by C-Diddy · · Score: 1

      How original. Zzzzz.

      --
      "Me fail English? That's unpossible." - Ralph
    2. Re:D;oh by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

      How original. Zzzzz.
      --
      "Me fail English? That's unpossible." - Ralph


      Are you sure that isn't a direct quote from your president?

      Zzzzzz +

    3. Re:D;oh by C-Diddy · · Score: 1

      Again, how original. Ha ha. Zzzzz.

      --
      "Me fail English? That's unpossible." - Ralph
  28. Actually... by _KiTA_ · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Pardon me if I am remembering things wrong, but wasn't there a hidden "_NSAKEY" variable or something like that hidden in some WinNTs, that Microsoft never could explain?

    1. Re:Actually... by tajmorton · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      Tell the truth and you won't have so much to remember.
    2. Re:Actually... by storem · · Score: 2, Informative

      Technical Explanation (Wikipedia says this doesn't exist anymore :) )

      http://web.archive.org/web/20000302035403/http://w ww.cryptonym.com/hottopics/msft-nsa/msft-nsa.html

  29. Amusing advert by eyepeepackets · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How appropriate that a Microsoft "Get the Facts" ad should show up at the top of this particular page -- gotta love that Murphy guy when he works in your favor.

    To the Microsoft Marketing folks: I'd trade you a fact for a clue but since you have neither facts nor clues I guess we won't be doing business any time soon.

    Cheers.

    --
    Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
    1. Re:Amusing advert by peterfa · · Score: 1

      Damn, I noticed that too, and then posted before I read all the way down. Now I'm going to get modded down as redundant :'(

  30. They didn't know how much it was worth by __aaijsn7246 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    According to Gostev, the rival hacker gangs did not seem to fully understand the exact nature of the vulnerability.

    Otherwise it should have gone for much more than $4,000, even in a black market. Imagine an exploit where you can gain access to any Windows computer on Earth for the last several builds of Windows?

    This is why we should set up companies to act as middleman and legitimately buy exploits. They would pay more and we would be able to get things patched quicker.

  31. unknown name? by AyeRoxor! · · Score: 4, Funny

    "[...] the vulnerability was detected by an unnamed person around Dec. 1, 2005."

    Ok, what are the chances that this person really has no name?!

    I'm going to have to call shenanigans on this whole article.

  32. Maybe they should lay off security researchers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wasn't Microsoft pissed about the WMF vulnerability being disclosed to the public before a patch was available? They certainly have whined about other announcements. Well, this completely justifies independent announcement of vulnerabilities. The bad guys already know about them, and are using them. Reporting to the vendor won't help nearly as much as publishing a third party fixes.

  33. They charged money for it? by Gary+Destruction · · Score: 1

    Whatever happened to hackers wanting all information to be free?

    1. Re:They charged money for it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently as kids get older, they can go to jail for "hacking."

      Gotta make bail somehow, I guess.

  34. Run for your lives! by novus+ordo · · Score: 0

    from our ms friends:
    "A remote code execution vulnerability exists in the Graphics Rendering Engine because of the way that it handles Windows Metafile (WMF) images. An attacker could exploit the vulnerability by constructing a specially crafted WMF image that could potentially allow remote code execution if a user visited a malicious Web site or opened a specially crafted attachment in e-mail. An attacker who successfully exploited this vulnerability could take complete control of an affected system."

    in other words this is not much different than downloading and opening an email attachment and poof--all your iNteRneT ArE BeLonG t0 Us. As always, the biggest security risk is the user.

    --
    "You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
    1. Re:Run for your lives! by BlacKat · · Score: 1

      No, this exploit does not actually require you to "double click" on anything to execute it.

      A web browser, for example, only needs to parse the WMF file prior to display to trigger the exploit. If your mail client happens to have a "preview" pane simply clicking the email could also trigger the exploit.

      This was a tad more severe then the usual types of email worms.

  35. I know this is a bit offtopic but... by Tigwyk · · Score: 1

    "The Internet Underground. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious."
      --Obi_1_Kenobi4836

    --
    "Pi is exactly 3!" *gasp*
  36. Goodbye Information Thuperhighway by carn1fex · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    ... hello William Gibson.

    --

    ---------

    No matter how thin you slice it, its still baloney.

  37. Re:Biggest question by The+Jonas · · Score: 1

    I don't know if it was the .wmf exploit, but there was an exploit for sale on eBay during the first week of December, 2005. This was referenced in the Full-Disclosure mailing list, which is archived at seclists.org (among other places). the auction may have been a hoax, but eBay cancelled it anyway.

  38. Unfair for Microsoft by houghi · · Score: 1

    I think it is unfair that it is first offerd to the people who pay money for it and only later to others. Especialy unfair to Microsoft who would NEVER do such a thing.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  39. Great seller! by saboola · · Score: 4, Funny

    Exploit works as advertised!!! Speedy email!! Would Buy From AGAIN!! A+++++++++++! :)

  40. Sell the Cure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Someone should sell the cure to it.

  41. Society back to the stone age? by mnmn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've seen powerouts but geez. Stone age? People in the Bronze age didnt require MS Windows did they?

    At best millions of people will be bugged and Linux and Apple vendors will have a hell of a time selling their OSes.

    --
    "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
  42. M$ ad on /. by peterfa · · Score: 1

    How funny. I just saw an ad from M$ "Know The Facts" right under the summary. Kinda' hard to believe the ad. Why is M$ advertizing on /. anyway? Is /. not own by the same company that owns freshmeat? Does this not have anything to do with the benifeit of Linux?

  43. damn by subtropolis · · Score: 1

    wishing i had mods for you now

    --
    "Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more exciting," he said.
  44. More importantly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it puts the lie to this whole attitude that hackers only develop exploits from the descriptions of vulnerabilities that are published!

    Damnit, there are no vulnerabilities that Microsoft publishes that haven't already been exploited in the wild! They don't spend any time looking for vulnerabilities, they only react to vulnerabilities that are already being exploited!

  45. In Soviet Russia by subtropolis · · Score: 1

    comedy questions you!

    --
    "Our interests are to see if we can't scale it up to something more exciting," he said.
  46. $4000!?!?!?! by ianguy · · Score: 0

    no wonder the russian economy sucks... all their programmers are wasting their money on trading windows exploits...

  47. What the hell can u do with a WMF exploit?? by ThePengwin · · Score: 1

    Hax the Office clipart gallery??? Fun, but pointless. Honestly WMF files are a bit of a wierd object to send in emails anyways....

    1. Re:What the hell can u do with a WMF exploit?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      er no. The WMF exploit allows remote code execution: I send you a link (www.mysite.xxx/funny.htm), you click it, your computer does whatever I want it to do. I let it download a trojan, install it, etc
      you can get infected by just visiting a site that looks normal, without any obvious wmf image references.

    2. Re:What the hell can u do with a WMF exploit?? by BLKMGK · · Score: 1

      Umm, remotely install Trojan code to any vulnerable WEB client that views your WEB page? The AMD forums got hit with one of these on an ad banner recently - a VERY popular forum. I can only imagine how many people became infected. If you think that this is just for clip art or that it can only execute from attachments then you've been asleep at the switch for oh like a month now. That noise you hear is the clue phone ringning - might want to answer it...

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
  48. I tried it myself... by Babayasin · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...from the Metasploit framework. That exploint was a champ. 99.9% guaranteed remote trojan installation. In fact, it was enough just to HOVER OVER the file in a directory so that Explorer would try to get its properties - and ooops.

  49. If disclosing it would damage national security... by r00t · · Score: 1

    why did Microsoft reveal the source to China? Can we conclude that Microsoft has committed treason? This is the one crime for which the U.S. Constitution explicitly mentions execution. For a corporation, that either means we dissolve it or we execute the executives and board members.

  50. Re: Why. by mlheur · · Score: 1

    In thinking about this, I don't know how I would word it, but it does not seem proper to use the past tense word "forbidden" with a future tense form of "to use".

    Maybe, "We hereby forbid you to use the En....."