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Apple Applies for a Touchscreen Gesture Patent
SuperMog2002 writes "According to an article in PC Magazine, Apple has submitted an application for a patent on "several methods of applying gestures to touch-sensitive input devices." Could there be a new form of tablet PC or PDA in Apple's future?"
Argh! Enough already with the "doing foo... with a computer!" and "doing foo... on a mobile device!" patents. You're not impressing anybody.
Has the tablet market come up with a way to deal with screen scratches? I think back to my trusty Palm IIIxe which after a few years suffered from horrible wear in the silk screen writing area. I'd hate to have dull spots on my computer screen where the GUI displays common elements.
-- I'm old enough to have lived through six different meanings of the word "hacker."
Maybe I had it right when I came up with the iPod Touch, a while back.
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
Apple did some really great things with the Newton. They were a little too early, though. Competitors like Palm and Casio did them one better in marketing and ubiquity (probably price, too, if I remember). The Newton and eMate are great, but didn't make it.
Apple waited a bit before coming out with a portable music player (didn't make a CD player, and watched the first few MP3-Type players hit market). In this case, they did a great job of design and marketing. It's been a hit ever since.
Now, Apple has made patent application to do some touch-screen stuff. Knowing Apple, they could just be "thinking about something with touch screens", and might just be pro-active in patents. If they do a tablet, iTouchyPod (iPad?, iPodTouch?, iTouch?, touchIPod?), they're likely to learn lots of lessons from the tablet-pc and touch-screen world and do something neat.
A Passionate Independent Musician
What exactly does this have to do with my rights online?
Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
B&W, Palm, etc. have already been mentioned as having prior art. Honestly, this is why I hate corporations like that. But I think there's another party who also has prior art on such a thing. I mean, these kinds of patents are just stupidly ridiculous.
I'd be pretty happy to see this wind up being a prelude to a product to compete with Sony's ereader. I'd really like an ereader, but have no interest in anything sony sells.
Maybe Apple can claim they were there first with the Newton. It is more cost effective to wait and see if something catches on before applying for the patent.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
yeah, but you had to use a pen there! http://www.fingerworks.com/ is probably more like what they were considering, except now there's a screen under it, so you pick up on the icon itself, instead of moving the pointer and then doing a pick up motion! *I haven't read the article*
Uhh dude... i don't think anyone wants to know what you are doing with your palm right now..
It's true. The only question now is did anyone ever run black and white on a touchscreen. Possibly a moot point as nVidia have had gestures on thie driver software for a while now.
May the Maths Be with you!
Not to mention the numerous Nintendo DS games that have this feature
"Don't mess with him, he taunts the happy fun ball."
As far as I can make out, each claim specifically mentions a multipoint touchscreen. Unlike the touchscreens normally used in PDAs, it can register pressure at several points simultaneously. Furthermore all described gestures need the screen to be touched at several places at once. But since the patent mentions virtual controls, I wouldn't really describe the interaction as a gesture. Gestures typically are not performed on a control.
Please take that into account when you try to come up with prior art.
You don't have to use a pen (stylus) with a palm pilot. You could, but you didn't have to. For the gestures you can use fingers, and they are not very exact. For writing you have to be a little more precise, but even a fingernail works well.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Palms have had this for awhile have they not? Not handwriting recognition - you could, say, drag the pen from top to bottom and the backlight would come on.
Palms only recognize one point at a time. The patent covers multi-point gestures, like (as described), zooming in on a point by simultaneously selecting the point with one finger and using another to control the zoom.
The post title, summary, and the article itself all make it sound like Apple is patenting all touch-screen gestures, but that's not what the patent application itself says.
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
User ineterface patents are causing much trouble to users! Imagine to start acquiring patents on accesibility technology! This would be an obvious matter our rights online!
In a simpler case, just think that windscreen wiper's switch control is a switch and not a turning knob (continues) just because of a patent.
I assume that the poster thought that you should care more about freedom-of-use than aples's-new-gadgets, and categorized that way.
What the heck am I doing on my Palm right now?
Using a one-point stylus. The patent application is for gestures using multiple points simultaneously. You can't do that with your Palm. Also note that it isn't a patent on multi-point touch screens or touch pads, which already exist, but on specific types of interfaces using them.
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
Black & White with a touch screen. If you've got it set up to emulate a mouse then it's actually quite fun to play with a touch screen.
If you've got it set up to emulate a mouse, then you're only using one point to make gestures. The patent application covers gestures using multiple points (like using two fingers on a touch screen or a touch pad). Black and White does not have that.
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
one of the new patents will include "navigating interface via tongue", cause we all know apples aqua UI is sooo good you want to lick it?
*runs away and hides*
Music, Games, Media Art and Programming
Not to mention the numerous Nintendo DS games that have this feature
The DS has, as far as I know, a single-point touch screen. The patent application is for gestures using multiple points. I don't have a DS, so tell me: can you touch the screen in two different points and have two different inputs register? Or does the cursor "leap" like most touchpads?
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
I didn't say "with", I said "on". Not sure that makes it better... but still ;-)
Honestly, I wish people would quit saying "Apple/Microsoft/Google/FooCorp is evil because they applied for patent X", even if the patent is for something really obvious (like this one seems to be) or stupid. Given the current legal climate, companies are forced to obtain patents like these so they can defend themselves against (usually smaller) companies that would otherwise get the patents later on (or dredge up old, semi-related patents) and then bring lawsuits. Save the complaints for companies that actually abuse patents (Eolas comes to mind), and the USPTO and the legal system that allow this **** to continue. Also, to the people who keep pointing out "prior art"... please note that this patent application is for a MULTI-POINT touch interface.
chown -R us ~you/base
it leaps. I've gotten killed in Kirby: Canvas Curse a few times because I hit the edge of the screen while playing...
By reading this, you have given me brief control of your mind.
eh, I'm an avid apple supporter, but that is kinda funny... no troll there
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
Actually, I fail to see how. The touch screen reacts the same whether I use one finger or two. The patent is vague (pretty typical for these kind of things), and to be honest probably worthless.
Besides, what's Apple going to do then? Sue the priest at my local Catholic church because he happens to mark the stations on the cross with two fingers during service????
Apple's implementation is much snappier!
The touch screen reacts the same whether I use one finger or two.
That's because it's a single-point screen. Multiple-point touch screens (i.e. the only kind referenced by the patent application) behave differently.
The patent is vague
You've already demonstrated that you haven't read any of it. The very first claim specifies "touch sensitive device having a multipoint capability".
Besides, what's Apple going to do then? Sue the priest...
Now you're demonstrating that you are being willfully stupid.
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
I wouldn't call your lawyer. I'm pretty sure your patent still holds on that particular gesture. I doubt Apple would be willing to reproduce the research it took for you to recieve the patent on that specific gesture.
"What the heck am I doing on my Palm right now?"
You weren't doing dialing motions with your hand or using multiple points of input on the screen.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah but I gotta say the rainbow-colored Windows flag isn't much better.
www.linuxpenguin.net
That's called the "iTouch".
www.linuxpenguin.net
usually people here are more uptight about patents, but when apple does it...
prior art or not, Figure 6A is interesting: shows the user dialing a rheostate or safe dial like device, presumably a visual control on the display.
If it's really multi-point, wouldn't this make an interesting biometric authorization system?
Something you have:
1) finger pattern and spacing of user as they "hold" dial
2) speed and pause of the motion of spinning the dial
Something you know:
3) the safe combination
Not exactly true... http://www.429bauhaus.no-ip.com/Apple/apple_powerc d.html
Portable, check, CD, check, plays music, check.
[UID-HeinzIntel]
The patent application is for gestures on a multi-point touch interface, not just a multi-point interface alone. If they're the first ones to develop a multi-point pad, fine, patent it. Patenting GESTURES is still ridiculously stupid and there is plenty of prior art there.
Think video iPod with the full front of the device as the screen, and the touch wheel just that. The wheel would only be visible when you were using it, alpha'd over the video being displayed.
http://www.iphone.org/
No sig for you!!
Vista also has touch screen guestures in the current beta2 builds.
Funny this article come up today. I have been playing with the touchscreen tablet UI in Vista all day.
I didn't RTA, though owning an iPod the first thing I think of is how the clickwheel responds to volume and tracking - rewind/foward - gestures. I would think that if anything Apple is adding more protection to it's iPod intellectual property.
My user name was a mistake. Input wasn't restricted, my bad.
Score:2, Informative? What flavor of crack are the mods smoking, and where can I get some? On a side note, I think you'll need to be more descriptive of what a reacharound is. The slashdot croud has enough trouble with heterosexuality, much less homo :)
The Newton had some limited gesture recognition, such as "scratching out" text or graphic to erase it. This was one of the features that made the Newton so incredibly easy and fun to use. IMHO, neither Palm nor Microsoft has been able to top it (I have a PocketPC device and it is proof positive that MS just doesn't get it).
No sig? Sigh...
You might like to know about a bit of prior art. It's called the Newton. It was manufactured by ... Apple.
I think they are trying to redo their touchstream patents or something. They already bought the company, why reapply?
See http://fingerfans.dreamhosters.com/forum/ for more on their buyout that we have gathered.
This is what has led to the halt of production of our great keyboards. We have full 10 fingered gesture control, which is why I don't use a mouse or trackball for input, let alone any of the usual shortcut keys. Hope to ot get RSI or any of that crap either...
Look at the Nintendo DS, it has a really good scratch-resistant screen that has stood up under what the average gamer puts it through. I bought mine used and it had no scratches on it, I wouldn't do that with any other portable system (buy it used)! The PSP's is not too bad either.
Twinstiq, game news
It sound like apple "again" is taking an already established idea, enhance it by 5% and file for a patent, making it impossible for others to enhance Apples idea. Good work. I wish more companies did this so we van't have any innovation at all.
Just to correct some people here, multi-touch pads already exist and work very well:
http://www.jazzmutant.com/lemur_overview.php
I have a Sony RM-AV2100 remote control which, when programming it, requires you to hold the reset LCD button down while touching a second button, to reset the second button's function.
From the second page of that review, here's this: You may remove pre-programmed buttons from view by holding it and the RESET button at the same time...
From what I've read of the patent, isn't this exactly what they are patenting?
Don't steal. The government hates competition.
And I'm afraid your stripes as an Apple apologist are showing.
Oh, I see. You just hate Apple. You don't actually care what the patent is about, you just want to make it known that you hate something. Well, have at it, but be aware that branding me an "apologist" because I think that you, personally, have made idiotic statements (before which I thought you were merely mistaken) doesn't actually make you any less wrong.
This is just like the pantenting of the scroll wheel; there's an obvious case of prior art (the radio dial in my old 1972 Dodge Charger for example) where a wheel moves a linear guide, but people think the patent is "new and valid" because it applies to an electronic device.
The patent application for the click wheel is far more specific than that, because the click wheel does more than that. If Apple tried to patent all wheels that operate linear controls, I would agree with you, but they have not.
Sorry... I did read the patent... and I still don't make the distinction. It's a gesture-based interface using a touch screen.
Maybe you read the title, but given that the abstract is even more specific than that, I cannot belive that you went any farther than that.
Like it or not, the prior art exists and is valid.
If you were to provide an example that actually fits the claims in the patent application, then I would probably agree with you. You have not done this.
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
It sound like apple "again" is taking an already established idea, enhance it by 5% and file for a patent,
If you or anyone else were to provide a link to a touch-sensitive device with a multipoint gesture interface, you might have a point. I don't know of any such interfaces, none of the things people have been harping about have such interfaces, so where do you get the claim that this is an "established" idea?
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
I don't see anything in that patent application for making a multipoint touch-sensitive device. All I can see is that they are free-riding on other companys devices with another software patent. Possibly making it harder for the true inventors to sell their devices because Apple patented the uses for them.
You don't see anything wrong with that?
A company called JazzMutant makes a multiple-point touchscreen with customisable controls, used to drive virtual synths and audio workstations. It's lovely, and I want one. I wonder if this counts as prior art? It's certainly closer than the people talking about PDAs I think...
Game dev and music blog
...a comment I posted on Slashdot in June 02:
8 840
:-). Seriously though, the age of the mouse seems to passing and touch screens should provide more than just a single 'mouse-point' reading.
6 15259
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=34641&cid=374
Recognize multiple touch points?(Score:1)
by sonamchauhan (587356) on Saturday June 22, @08:51AM (#3748840)
(Last Journal: Friday January 21, @11:08AM)
It's good to know this tablet can measure pressure -- but it would be nice if touch screens recognized multiple SIMULTANEOUS points of contact. All the touchscreens I've 'touched' only function as a type of mouse (i.e. use a single contact point to define single pointer location). If screens could measure touch points across the entire screen simultaneously, they could be used to select text quickly (think of a 'pick' action), recognize gestures ('twisting' an on-screen knob), or even recognize the *shape* of your hand (the coolest yet most insecure biometric authentication ever!
PS: From what I gather, resistive touch screens look more promising than capacitive ones... This page explains why [go.com]
A question of mine that appeared on Ask Slashdot in July 02:
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/07/24/1
Building a Pressure-Sensitive, Multi-Point TouchScreen?
Posted by Cliff on Thursday July 25, @09:15AM
from the d-i-y-baby dept.
sonamchauhan asks: "I'd like advice on building (yes, building) my own low-res touchscreen. The reasons for 'build' instead of 'buy' are: 1) to have it sense pressure (pressure sensing is quite expensive) and 2) to have it sense multiple points of contact simultaneously (which is a useful thing). Back in 1985, researchers at U.Toronto built (PDF file) a touch-tablet (not a touch-screen) that fulfilled both requirements (pressure-sensitive and multi-touch) and used only basic electronics: lots of diodes, A/D convertors, etc. Some 17 years later, it should be possible to build a touch-screen using the same techniques (possibly using layers of transparent conductive and insulating paint for the sensor paths.) Any comments? Some other links: a Microsoft paper (PDF file) describing a touch sensor painted onto a mouse, a basic FAQ on current touchscreen technology, and a slashdot thread that discussed building touchscreens (these links don't address pressure or multi-touch though)."
I don't see anything in that patent application for making a multipoint touch-sensitive device.
Um, ok. I thought that was obvious. That's probably why it's titled "Gestures for touch sensitive input devices", instead of "Multipoint touch-sensitive devices". Are you trying to imply that the patent is silly because it isn't explicitly a new bit of hardware? If so, you're probably going to have a problem with most patents.
All I can see is that they are free-riding on other companys devices with another software patent. Possibly making it harder for the true inventors to sell their devices because Apple patented the uses for them.
This is a very strange claim. Apple isn't attempting here to patent touch screen/touch pad technology, which is presumably already covered by a hojillion patents, and is a different business besides. A patent like this wouldn't stop anyone from using multipoint touch screens or touch pads in any ways other than the ways described in the appication. Similarly, I don't think that the two patents Apple already holds in this area (referenced in this application, 5,590,219:Method and apparatus for recognizing gestures on a computer system and 5,612,719:Gesture sensitive buttons for graphical user interfaces) have exactly wrecked the economy in the decade or so since they were filed.
Also, you allude to "true inventors" without giving any kind of indication as to who they might be.
As certain as you seem that someone has been ripped-off, you're not very forthcoming about who
you think that someone is.
You don't see anything wrong with that?
All I see here is you making up scenarios that have little to do with reality.
Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
So, as there is no new invention here as you say, you do think it's ok to patent an ever so slightly improvement over an existing idea. In this case it seems to be "specific" gestures on a touchscreen. No one else patents gestures because only Apple thinks it's ok to patent small UI changes. They once got turned down for trying to patent the whole concept of a GUI, luckily they didn't got that one through.
I don't have to give you any examples on where Apples specific gestures are used, because most like there are none. But, Gestures are are used on a wide range of devices (From handheld videgames to webbrowsers) and are nothing new at all. Thats it.
I'm not American so maybe I just don't understand this "every thought no mather how novel should be patentable" thing. But if it works for you, good luck. In the rest of the world it would probably just stiffle innovation.
Saying that Apple bought fingerworks may not be enough for folks who don't know what that is. Fingerworks made a series of keyboards and other devices that allowed users to use 'gestures' for commands. The surface was flat, like a touchpad, so there were no keys, which threw many for a loop. A gesture would be, say, four fingers (all except the pinky) sliding together on the right surface of the keyboard to 'Save'. Gestures were programable, and many geeks loved the extensability. The keyboards were difficult to use, especially relearning typing without tactile feedback. But once you got it, these keyboards were *extremely* powerful. E.g., no mouse, since mousing is taken care of with gestures.
About a year ago, FingerWorks was bought out by some other company, that most now think is Apple. Many of the FingerWorks users are mad because they can no longer purchase new keyboards, or even get support for older keyboards that break. Apple had better think of something briliant to pacify this angry mob of **hundreds**.
**Disclamer -- typed with a FingerWorks TouchStream keyboard.
>>Palms have had this for awhile have they not? Not handwriting recognition - you could, say, drag the pen from top to bottom and the backlight would come on.
Perhaps, but the Apple Newton Messagepad supported gestures (scratch back and forth to erase, Tap & hold to select, upward stroke to capitalise first letter or whole word, tap & drag to edge of screen to copy, etc.) way back when Palm was just a software company with only one product -- Grafitti, a text-input program for the early Newtons. Palm later went on to develop their own hardware and PalmOS, based on Grafitti as the interface. It was quite primitive compared to the Newton, but the market decided it was Good Enough(tm) and enjoyed good developer support by Palm, smartly, providign their developer kit and emulator to the masses at no cost.
[opinion]Personally, after using a Newton everything else felt too limiting. The Palm was functional, but not innovative and I could never adjust to writing funny-shaped letters one over the other in a single spot on the screen. I prefer using a PDA like a writing tablet acting directly on the words I wish to edit and having the computer learn MY writing style by IT adapting to ME, not the other way around.[/opinion]
For those like me who pine for a Newton on modern hardware, there's hope: The Einstein Newton Emulator project. http://www.kallisys.com/newton/einstein/
Yep. They were early in the digital camera market, too.
"Does this mean I have to pay a royalty to Apple every time I go to a porn site and perform a "gesture"?"
No. However you will have to pay a licensing fee if you wish to perform this gesture as a service to others.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)