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Galactic Civilizations II Breaks DRM Mold

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the who-needs-drm dept.

Machitis writes "A recent news item at GalCiv2.com says, 'Our license allows you to install the game onto as many machines that you own that you want as long as only one copy is being used at once. How many sales are lost because people want to have a game on their laptop and desktop and don't want to drag CDs around so choose not to buy the game? [...] we were quite disturbed to discover that the company that makes Starforce provided a working URL to a list of pirated GalCiv II torrents. I'm not sure whether what they did was illegal or not, but it's troubling nevertheless and was totally unnecessary.'"

61 of 168 comments (clear)

  1. what assholes... by Malor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Boy, if you wanted any proof that the Starforce people are _serious_ assholes, there it is.

    1. Re:what assholes... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, how Mafia-esque. "Games which don't use our product suffer from more piracy... if you catch my drift."

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    2. Re:what assholes... by quantax · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You said it.

      Previously, I have defended starforce on the basis that it does do what it advertises; hell I have seen warez forums where people actually complain about how hard it is to get around it. Its not terribly difficult to get past, but most people are too lazy to go through that much effort to play a game, so their approach does work to an extent; they cant stop piracy but they can make it a real pain in the ass. But having bought GalCiv2 the day it came out via their online-delivery system, this type of shit makes me regret my prior defenses. I have no problem that SF wants to make a copy protection, even if its invasive and overbearing, but once they go out and then take a fairly independant game like GalCiv which doesn't have major publisher backing and then hold it out on a stick as an example of the failure to copy-protect, complete with torrent links, that just means you're a giant asshole who gets no sympathy when people attack your products, legitimate or not.

      --
      "What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
    3. Re:what assholes... by Arker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Starforce really illustrates what many of have been saying for years - when you come up with a 'copy protection' system that's enough of a PITA to slow down the pirates even a little, it'll also be enough of a PITA to drive your customers off. Little surprise that they would resort to such tactics, really - every time a game comes out with Starforce, a certain percentage of buyers are screwed hard enough they will boycott it. Not fun when you pay good money for a game you never get to play...

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    4. Re:what assholes... by AlexMax2742 · · Score: 3, Informative
      Its not terribly difficult to get past, but most people are too lazy to go through that much effort to play a game, so their approach does work to an extent; they cant stop piracy but they can make it a real pain in the ass.

      Careful there. Sersious cracking groups are not dumb by any means. They had to destroy the first two generations of Starforce protection, along with pretty much everything SecurROM and Safedisc has come out with.

      --
      I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
  2. There you have it, perfect proof by j0nb0y · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Now everyone knows what gamers have been saying all along.

    Starforce encourages piracy.

    --
    If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
    1. Re:There you have it, perfect proof by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, the StarForce Forum Administrator who made the post (with torrent link) is from Russia.

      What he did might not be illegal over there.

      But yea, talk about being an A-Hole.

      Screen shot of the StarForce thread: http://www.galciv2.com/temp/starfo2.jpg

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:There you have it, perfect proof by D'Arque+Bishop · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, the StarForce Forum Administrator who made the post (with torrent link) is from Russia.

      What he did might not be illegal over there.

      Legalities aside, what he did is certainly extremely hypocritical considering later in the thread he points to the forum rules and says anyone else posting links to pirated materials will have their posts deleted.

      http://www.star-force.com/forum/index.php?showtopi c=670&st=20#, if you want to see for yourself.

    3. Re:There you have it, perfect proof by GMFTatsujin · · Score: 5, Funny

      In Soviet Russia, copy-protection cracks YOU!

  3. Makes me wonder... by miscz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Makes me wonder if it was Starforce guys that released this torrents just to sell their product. Looking at how did they behave recently (threatening people, etc) I would bet some money on this.

  4. I was an early adopter by HeavensBlade23 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Don't make the same mistake I did and run out to purchase the game based on good reviews and the fact that the developers have a good attitude. At this point I'm pretty much thinking of GC2 in the same way I thought about Black & White: It was awesome for the first few days but over the course of a week or so I started liking it less and less. Even after a few patches I'd say the game is still suffering from a poor UI and a lack of information about how the game mechanics actually work. Wait for a demo, and then decide if you're going to buy, as always.

    1. Re:I was an early adopter by Daetrin · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Don't make the same mistake I did and run out to purchase the game based on good reviews and the fact that the developers have a good attitude. At this point I'm pretty much thinking of GC2 in the same way I thought about Black & White: It was awesome for the first few days but over the course of a week or so I started liking it less and less. Even after a few patches I'd say the game is still suffering from a poor UI and a lack of information about how the game mechanics actually work. Wait for a demo, and then decide if you're going to buy, as always.

      Well what you say makes a certain amount of sense, but here's an alternate view:

      First, both good reviews and good developers sound like good reasons to consider buying a game. Good reviews for the obvious reason, good developers because i like to support such behavior. One can make a good theoretical argument that one should judge the merit of a piece of art solely on the basis of the work itself, completly isolated from the context of the artist(s) who made it. Although i understand the reasoning behind the argument i do believe that the actions of the artist should influence your judgement to some degree. If the artist is actively working to bring about changes to society that you disagree with then any interest you have in their work should be mitigated by the knowledge that supporting them will support a cause you disagree with. Likewise if the artist is working to support views you agree with then choosing to support their work in preference to other artists whose work may be technically superior but who are not "fighting the good fight" is a completely valid position.

      Furthermore, those who played the first GalCiv already know that Stardock has a history of not only listening to feedback from the players but incorporating those changes into completely free patches and add-ons. Everything they've said so far indicates that they plan to do the same for GalCiv2 as well, which greatly mitigates any fears i have about purchasing an unplayable or even just unenjoyable game. And if you did play the first GalCiv, consider how much you paid for it (about $50 in my case i believe) and how much enjoyment you got out of it compared to other games of the same price. In my case the amount of time i spent playing it and the enjoyment i got out of those hours far exceeded what i gained from many other games that i paid just as much for. Personally i feel i "owe" Stardock more than the original $50 i paid for the first game, and as such paying another $50 for the second game is well worth the risk. If the second game turns out to be mediocre or worse then i can consider my karmic dept for the first game to be repaid and be more wary when and if they release a third game in the series.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    2. Re:I was an early adopter by dolphinling · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In other, shorter, words: Judge art solely on its artistic merits, pay for art based on a whole view of what your money gets you and what will be done with it by the person you give it to.

      --
      There are 11 types of people in the world: those who can count in binary, and those who can't.
  5. Good on them by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A sensible approach to a modern world.
    The trust model can work.

    Gaining the trust of your user base WILL be beneficial.
    If you treat them fairly, they will pay you back.

    As long as the torrent sites follow the DMCA rules (as it suggests the one in the article does) then the piracy can be tamed (and having lots of well intentioned customers warning them of torrents will help)

    Word of mouth will get this game far, I wonder just how many torrent downloaders will purchase this game vs an EA game?

    Does high downloads turn into high profits?

    I see something similar happening with Serenity, I saw it months ago after downloading it, but today went out and bought a copy.
    I want to tell Wheldon and the backers I support it and want more.

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
    1. Re:Good on them by ultranova · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As long as the torrent sites follow the DMCA rules (as it suggests the one in the article does) then the piracy can be tamed (and having lots of well intentioned customers warning them of torrents will help)

      Better yet, have them follow honor rules: only pirate games that have copy protection, and refuse to distribute non-protected games. A bit like the warrior ideal of fighting other warriors but refusing to strike at civilians.

      So, does that mean that a hackers debugger is his soul ?-)

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  6. talk about sour grapes ... by dougmc · · Score: 4, Informative
    we were quite disturbed to discover that the company that makes Starforce provided a working URL to a list of pirated GalCiv II torrents.
    Well, if you actually read the URL, he's saying that `thousands of people are downloading the game from there', not `go here for a copy of the game' (though the end result is the same -- those who aren't smart enough to find torrent searches can just use the given URL, though the purprose of the URL was presumably to prove his point.)

    And it is the most effective way to prove his point that I'm aware of, so I'd like to give the Starforce guy the benefit of the doubt (as odious as I find copy protection and DRM and similar things), even though he probably should have considered how his comment would be taken -- piracy of a program that's sold by somebody who is not their customer is NOT ANY OF HIS BUSINESS, even if it does suggest that his software is great or something (it's not, but I digress.) (And really, even if this were a customer of his, posting a link like this is bad form. A screen shot of how many people are involved in the torrent would have proven the point almost as well, and get him a lot less flak.

    However, the point that he's trying to make is easily rebuffed by simply posting another link (or many other links) to software that was protected by Starforce and yet people are still downloading it, because the protection has been cracked, either via things like SecuROM or a cracked binary that removes the Starforce checks. Copy protection negatively affects those who paid for the software the most -- the pirates just emulate it, or use cracks to bypass it, so it doesn't really affect them at all.

    1. Re:talk about sour grapes ... by Jugalator · · Score: 4, Insightful

      though the purprose of the URL was presumably to prove his point

      I don't think anyone browsing the forums of a copy protection product is actually needing proof that web sites involved in piracy exist, much less via direct links.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    2. Re:talk about sour grapes ... by svip · · Score: 5, Informative

      Disclaimer: Even though I'm going to correct your facts I agree with your post. Also these things were true at the end of last year but I'm not 100% sure about the present state.

      Firstly, I'm not sure what you were making it out to be, but SecuROM is a competing copy protection. EA, LucasArts and several other major publishers use it. On to Starforce.

      Starforce is an in some ways really effective copy protection. First of all making a 'cracked exe' is a lot more work than just stripping the copy protection, as the Starforce protection produces heavily modified and obfuscated binaries, this is why you practically don't see backup CD cracks or 'NoCDs' for Starforce protected discs.

      Additionally, Starforce refuses to load the CD from a SCSI drive if an IDE CD/DVD drive is present in the system. That includes the popular virtual CD programs, as they emulate SCSI drives (there's the not-released-yet Daemon Tools IDE version which apparently shares release date of Duke Nukem Forever). Older Starforce versions required you to disable the IDE controller in Windows to use a virtual drive for a Starforce game. Recent versions go to the level of requiring you to physically unplug the drive. However, anything that prevents the PC from having a standard IDE drive will, currently, let virtual drives run Starforce-protected games. This includes PCI raid controllers and USB CD drives. As such it's a fairly easily beatable protection but requires different hardware.

      However, the really funny thing here is that most burners can burn working copies of Starforce games given a proper source image. So it fails at the most base level of preventing copying of the CDs. However, copying fails if the Starforce protection drivers are present in the system doing the burning. Yes, the Starforce drivers monitor all the CD drive access. Luckily, there's an offical tool to remove the protection drivers.

      --
      This is a sig. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.
    3. Re:talk about sour grapes ... by dougmc · · Score: 2, Insightful
      but SecuROM is a competing copy protection.
      Oops, you're right. I must be thinking of something else. Ahh, here it is -- `securom loader'. This thing hides tools like daemon tools from things like SecuROM and Starforce, allowing one to use the game even without cracking it at all.
      First of all making a 'cracked exe' is a lot more work than just stripping the copy protection, as the Starforce protection produces heavily modified and obfuscated binaries, this is why you practically don't see backup CD cracks or 'NoCDs' for Starforce protected discs.
      I do see them. They just take a little longer to come out than cracks for other protection schemes, and not every game is cracked like this.

      In any event, it's an arms war, and it's been going on for over 20 years. So far, I'm not predicting any winner, but the biggest loser so far has been the consumer (and the one who actually pays for the program, and gets it along with copy protection that makes his machine less stable, slower, and may not work on his hardware at all.)

    4. Re:talk about sour grapes ... by Rimbo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just burn the copies on a Mac or Linux machine.

      Piece o' cake.

  7. Wow. by Txiasaeia · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I didn't really like the first game, but I bought the second because of their distribution model & lack of DRM. It's a pleasant sidenote that the game is actually half-decent, but more important than the game itself, I wanted to support a company that provides games without DRM. Another news item on galciv.com says that they sold more copies of GalCiv2 in 10 days than they ever sold of GalCiv1, which says to me that their method certainly isn't *hurting* sales.

    But if I ever needed a tangible reason to not use Starforce products, this would be enough.

    --
    Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
    1. Re:Wow. by cliffski · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Theres no shortage of games without DRM and without the big 'EA / Sony' attitude. My own companies one of them:
      www.positech.co.uk
      There is enough choice to buy the DRM-free games that you enjoy, this game isn't the only option.
      That said, galciv 2 IS a superb game, and one I've been addicted to since the day it was released. All power to them.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    2. Re:Wow. by Nataku564 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Democracy rocks. Played that thing non stop for a while. Its also a great game to jump into for a few turns whenever you have a few minutes. Haven't quite figured out how to get Japan out of debt yet, though ...

    3. Re:Wow. by forkazoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know, I don't game much anymore, but I think I may go and buy this game just to make a point, too. I basically never buy any PC games any more for fear that they might have some junkware copy protection. Games are a diversion, not the reason I have a computer. So, if a game has any potential to interfere with my ability to burn CD's and DVD's, then I won't even think about bothering with it.

      The companies pushing strict DRM need to remember that they are providing entertainment, not our only source of breathable oxygen.

  8. Proof of claim? by Crash24 · · Score: 3, Informative

    The forum admin linked to a torrent search of GalCiv II...that is utterly shameful.

  9. Not too surprising... by babbling · · Score: 4, Insightful

    id Software have been making the most popular games in the industry for over a decade, and have never bothered with heavy copy restrictions. They tend to put in copy restrictions as long as they have zero chance of inconveniencing their customers.

    If only more game companies would just follow the leaders and dump this Starforce DRM crap...

    1. Re:Not too surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      id hasn't been releasing the most popular games for the PC since Quake I. On top of that their titles do CD checks, which are latter removed in patches after a certain quantity of time. They don't rely on any special anti-piracy techniques, but they aren't exactly the most user-friendly with their tendency to require CDs at launch.

    2. Re:Not too surprising... by stonecypher · · Score: 5, Funny

      Dude. iD has had some of the harshest copy protection in history.

      Of course, DOOM II is a trademark of id Software,
      copyright 1994-95, so don't mess with it. Remember, if you
      are playing a pirated copy of DOOM II you are going to HELL.
      Buy it and avoid an eternity with all the other freeloaders.
      If you have any problems playing DOOM II, please call our
      technical support line at (212) 951-3126.

      Maybe Starforce are thugs who promote software theft if you don't do business with you, but at least they're not sending you into the Inferno...

      --
      StoneCypher is Full of BS
    3. Re:Not too surprising... by svip · · Score: 2, Informative

      Raven made the game under iD supervision. Just because it doesn't fit your vision doesn't make it cease existing. When Quake 3 was made, CD-based copy protections were just starting to come into fashion with Microsoft Games and EA using the at the time #1 name, Safedisc, but a lot of gamse had, like Quake 3, merely a basic CD check. It was nothing special at the time. If they release a game now with no real protection, all respect to that. But 1999?

      By the way, the 2000 Quake 3: Team Arena expansion, in-house iD developed, used a commercial copy protection.

      --
      This is a sig. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.
    4. Re:Not too surprising... by Hard_Rock_2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You do realize that in EVERY single case you mentioned, the copy protection was removed in a later patch?

      Quake 3, Doom 3, Quake 4 all have had the cd check removed after a few patches.

      Thats right Quake 4 no longer requires a cd check. The inclusion of the commercial cd check has more to do with the publisher (activision) then a decision on ID's side.

  10. Excellent game & company, Starforce can suck m by mrRay720 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm sure I don't need to finish.

    It's a great game by a great company and I pre-ordered it and have been enjoying it for a while now.

    The point is though that they're not treating their customers like criminals by default. This is something that we really should all support. Mutual trust between company and buyer is something that's been almost eradicated over the past few years by rape-artists like Starforce and Sony.

    The proof of what Starforce is all about is right there in front of you. "They didn't pay us loads of money to crap all over their customers, so DAMMIT WE'RE GOING TO PROMOTE PIRACY OF THEIR SOFTWARE." You know, does this remind anyone else of mafia-like tactics? That's because that's exactly what this is. It look for all intents and purposes like a protection racket.

    Starforce are saying by their actions - "Give us money or we'll encourage and make it easier for people to take from you."

    Support Stardock, Screw Starforce.

  11. Games are pirated, news at 11 by jandrese · · Score: 3, Funny

    I wish someone would have posted a bunch of links to that forum for torrents of games that _are_ protected by Starforce. They aren't hard to find. This was little more than a scare tactic.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
  12. GalCiv2 'Genuine Advantage' by Ryz0r · · Score: 5, Informative

    ..to coin a phrase. Although the actual game has no DRM in it, the guys at Stardock use the unique serial number method to access online content such as frequent updates and bugfixes, giving people a good incentive to buy it instead of pirating it.

    On top of there being no DRM, the game is also $10 cheaper than most retail games, which makes up for there being no multiplayer in it (at the moment.) The guys over at IGN reckon there's multiplayer architecture hidden in the game at the moment, and think they'll incorporate the multiplayer later on as part of their 'geniune advantage' scheme. Who knows, it may boost their game sales up a notch after the initial release sales have died down. Good on 'em!

    --
    Peace, Love, Unity, Respect
  13. Sell me the CD key by Spiffness · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think, a strong deterrant to piracy, based off my own experiences and those of people I know is: Allow me to buy just the CD key (and patch it so it doesnt need the CD to play).

    People will download the games, piracy isnt going to go away. But alot of games have awesome online play, that you can access with a stolen copy (usually).

    So allow these people, who downloaded the game, to just buy a real KEY from you. Sell the retail box, a download copy, or just the CD key, users choice.

    personally, It is very difficult for me to GO OUT and buy a game. My work schedule and living situation, plus where I am simply doesnt permit it more than once every three months. If I could download a torrent copy of a game, then purchase the CD key. Boy, we'd be in business.

    1. Re:Sell me the CD key by mrRay720 · · Score: 5, Informative

      www.galciv2.com - go there and you can buy, download, install, and play the game with minimum hassle.

      IT sems to me that they're giving you exactly what you're asking for, and that's great. I did it and I have never had to touch a CD. I have a backup stored on my HD, and can re-downoad it from them whenever I want and all I have to do is supply them with the serial number to do so.

      Oh, if I lose the serial number too, if I can prove ownership (via registered email address, receipt, etc) they'll give me the serial number I lost so I can get playing again.

      Pretty neat, eh? (Not a fanboy, just VERY impressed with a company where supporting the customer is priority)

    2. Re:Sell me the CD key by Fweeky · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Go ahead; grab a torrent of Gal Civ II. When you're ready to buy it, do so from the website, install Stardock's little management tool, and it will happily go ahead and upgrade your "pirate" install to the latest version with your legitimate activation key, no fuss.

      Personally I almost bought it purely for this enlightened attitude but it's also a really good game so.. :)

  14. Good for them! by (H)elix1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    About fracking time a game company figured out that people don't like the CD dongle. One of the reasons CounterStrike was such a huge hit was once you installed it, it just ran. No CD needed in the drive. Anytime I clicked it, I was good to go. I've got a mess of banged up media - three copies of some games - just because they need the physical disk in the drive.

    The net dongle (via Steam and their ilk) is OK for multiplayer games, but it still pisses me off when I want to do single player. I got HL2, but don't plan to buy any more stand alone games that have to call home every time they start up.

    Lastly, the StarForce stuff can badly munge up a system. I can't see any titles worth building a SCSI only box for just so my other software continues to run after they try to rewrite system drivers. I hope the support calls bury any profit those who opt for this type of 'protection'.

    --
    +++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
    1. Re:Good for them! by JNighthawk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Just FYI, if you don't have an internet connection (or you can choose so, I believe) you can set Steam to offline mode which won't do a phone home when playing single player.

      --
      Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
    2. Re:Good for them! by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Umm, I guess you don't remember when games required you to read little bits out of the manual to verify that your copy was legit? That was more of a PITA than having to have a CD with you.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
  15. So lets do the decent thing by cliffski · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They seem to be ironically promoting piracy of a companies product just because they wouldnt use starforce.
    thats clearly illegal so...
    http://www.theesa.com/piracy/index.php
    I've already reported them, the mroe who do so, the better.

    --
    DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    1. Re:So lets do the decent thing by mikeswi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, so was I, as well as tipping off their web host about a DMCA violation. But I wanted the address of the page with the link to the warez site. And I found it. And they removed the link. This is the article that shows up in the screenshot at the Galactic Civ site

      --
      Only on /.
  16. Two can play that game... by s3n10r+d1ngd0ng · · Score: 5, Informative
    Here are piratebay links to torrents of a few of the better Starforge protected games, most of which currently have cracks. King Kong: (action/adventure, Ubisoft)
    http://thepiratebay.org/search.php?q=king%20kong&a udio=&video=&apps=&games=on&porn=&other=&what=sear ch&page=0&orderby=se

    Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones: (action/adventure, Ubisoft)
    http://thepiratebay.org/search.php?q=two%20thrones &audio=&video=&apps=&games=on&porn=&other=&what=se arch&page=0&orderby=se

    Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (stealth action, Ubisoft)
    http://thepiratebay.org/search.php?q=chaos%20theor y&audio=&video=&apps=&games=on&porn=&other=&what=s earch&page=0&orderby=se

    Brothers in Arms: Earned in Blood (first person shooter, Gearbox)
    http://thepiratebay.org/search.php?q=brothers+in+a rms+earned+in+blood>

    X3 (space sim, Enlight Software)
    http://thepiratebay.org/search.php?q=x3+reunion&ga mes=on

    enjoy.

  17. Even game demos! by antdude · · Score: 2, Informative

    It pisses me off that game demos have these protections too. I wonder if game companies are lazy to remove them from demos, want us customers to test them, etc.

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    1. Re:Even game demos! by Sheetrock · · Score: 5, Insightful
      As I understand it, game demos are copy protected because it avoids giving software crackers an unencrypted/unprotected version of the game binary. While I doubt a demo game .exe would be an exact unprotected copy of a retail game .exe (i.e., you couldn't just drop it in with retail data files and expect it to work in most cases) maybe it's still useful to the cracker for comparison purposes?

      I don't know that it makes that big of a difference if somebody's going to reverse the copy protection. I imagine protecting each successive patch a different way makes for a bigger headache. They've gotten so clever that they occasionally fail to permit my use of the games after I buy them, so I've mostly stopped buying or even playing them (although I did buy Galactic Civilizations, which is among the best games I've played, and shall buy Galactic Civilizations II because its creator doesn't engage in this wankery.)

      --

      Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
      -- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.




    2. Re:Even game demos! by miyako · · Score: 3, Interesting

      From what I seem to recall someone on slashdot saying a few days ago on a different thread, the reason that game demos are distributed with the copy protection is that one of the ways the copy protection works is that it installs it's own VM and converts some of the .EXE into a bytecode. This way you have to have the copy protection program running so that it can interpret some of the bytecode in the .EXE. Since interpreting bytecode is slow, a lot of games have that code in the menus and stuff. So if they distributed the demos unprotected, the crackers could take the demo, pull out that bit of code that is bytecode in the retail version, replace it, and therefore make the game run without the copy protection.
      Anyway, that's how I understand it based off what another slashdotter said.

      --
      Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
  18. SF == limited evil by Tom · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yes, I consider StarForce evil. Anything that installs in order to protect a software I paid for against me, the owner of the machine it's installed on, has its priorities seriously messed up.

    Check: X3, a game I considered buying until I found out it's got SF in it. No sale.
    Check2: GalCiv2, a game I might buy when it becomes more affordable (sorry, 50 for a game isn't fair. Let's talk again when it's 35). No stupid copy protection is a good argument - my main machine is a notebook...

    Also, there's literally tons of tools out there to circumvent SF. Most of them appear to be a PITA to use, but they're there. The largest group of gamers who copy regularily are kids with not enough money and more than enough time, so they won't mind.

    Plus, of course, the cracker groups who'll break any new SF game in a day or two.

    Nah, to me SF and its likes are a big scam designed to rip off software companies who should better spend the money on making their games less buggy.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:SF == limited evil by CountZero117 · · Score: 2, Informative

      umm, GalCiv2 is $39. you should atleast check the price before you say it's too much =P but i can see how that would be easy to do, most games are $50 anyway..

    2. Re:SF == limited evil by Devistater · · Score: 3, Informative

      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000 BPBAPI/ less than $39 with free shipping and almost all places no tax. Thats equivelent to $35 in a store with tax :)

  19. forgot the limit by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One thing, though: At least SF does provide a removal tool. That's the one reason I don't consider it a trojan.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  20. Yeah by Xymor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Starforce games are not pirated at all... Strangelly enought, right now there are thousands of people downloading torrents of: X3: Reunion, UFO: Aftershock, Splinter Cell3....
    Their half-ass copy protection is easly bypassed and if don't have IDE optical drives it's like there is no protection at all.

    1. Re:Yeah by Fweeky · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have an SATA optical drive, and Starforce is indeed almost like no protection at all; it quite happily verifies mounted DVD images as legitimate physical disks. In fact it seems significantly more reliable there than with a legitimate disk in a real drive, presumably because the scary barely working hacks they use work better on an emulated drive...

  21. No, they don't, RTFA by Daetrin · · Score: 3, Informative
    Does this game use Starforce?

    Please RTFA. There are two main points to it, A: Stardock, the company behind GalCiv, uses virtually no DRM and particularly doesn't use third-party customer-unfriendly DRM such as that provided by Starforce, and that the heavy sales of the game may seem threatening to companies whose primary buisness is selling DRM software (again, such as Starforce.)

    B: A Starforce employee posted on the Starforce forums a link to a site where pirate torrents of GalCiv2 could be downloaded. Ostensibly this was to provide "proof" that GalCiv/Stardock were suffering from piracy. (Presumably with the intent to encourage other companies to purchase Starforce software.) As noted in other comments however some people are viewing it as a mafia-esque tactic to harm Stardock by increasing piracy of their game. (Presumably with the intent to intimidate Stardock and other companies into purchasing Starforce software.)

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    This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  22. Galciv and DRM, and lessons learned by arstal · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Stardock isn't primarily in the games business. In fact, the only "major" game they produce is the GalCiv series. (They did make some other games their interns made as very low-budget titles, like Lightweight Ninja) GC1 was published by Strategy First, and had DRM on the original title (they removed it in a future patch). Strategy First stiffed Stardock, so they published GC2 themselves at a budget of $300,000. I think they've made their profit on it already due to initial sales, which have been stronger then anything Starforce has gotten so far. The thing most people don't get about piracy is that the economic cost of piracy isn't the cost of the game for each copy downloaded. Most people who download a game wouldn't even consider buying it without the download (a few will buy if they like) This is one reason, to go on a related topic- that anime companies have allowed fansubbers to continue in most cases- while it's illegal, they view it as a form of advertising- the only change in their business model is that they have a tendency to pick up series now before they're fansubbed. You can tell by looking at the Starforce forums their forum rep, whoever he is, has no concept of English grammar or tact. Basically, I think the lesson we're learning from all this is that at least for the radical fringe of games (I don't think the average gamer knows what Starforce is, or even if he's infected by it)- we view non-invasive DRM as part of customer service. Of course, if GC2 was crap, no one would have this discussion- it's a kudos really for Stardock that the oligarchs (using a term that's perjorative to Russians) at Starforce felt a threat and struck at them.

  23. Ironically, they took the links down on request by greenreaper · · Score: 2, Informative

    We asked them nicely to consider not listing our work on their torrent listing site. They did. Score one for politeness.

  24. Re:Well, heck! by greenreaper · · Score: 5, Informative

    GalCiv II is sort of a mix of Civilizations and MOO (2, not 3). The ship designer will make you enjoy building units. :-)

  25. Congrats... by Khyber · · Score: 4, Funny

    You just slashdotted The Pirate Bay. No pir8 booty for me. *sigh* guess I'll go look at Carmen Electra's for a while ;)

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  26. UT creators remove CD-Checks shortly after release by IIDX · · Score: 4, Interesting

    UT guys are pretty good about copy protection in moderation. Shortly after release, the official patches remove the cd-checks. Happened to UT2k3 and 2k4 as far as I can remember.

    Nice touch

  27. Re:MODs! What the heck are you thinking! by JamesTRexx · · Score: 3, Funny

    Every punchline so original...so...so...unexpected

    "You must be new here..."

    --
    home
  28. I think their customers should sue them by sgant · · Score: 3

    All the Starforce customers should gather together and sue Starforce because they obviously are paying for something that's not working. How many "Silent Hunter III" pirated copies are out there now? How many other games that use Starforce are pirated anyway?

    From what I understand, it's one of the easiest copy protection schemes to break. If I'm a company that paid good money to implement Starforce into my product to help curb piracy of my game, I'd be majorly pissed off because:

    A. It doesn't stop piracy at all and is easy to break.
    B. I would be getting a ton of complaints from legit buyers of my game that Starforce has broken their CD or DVD drive capabilities in one way or another.

    They should sue them for not delivering a product that works. It's money out the window.

    --

    "Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
    1. Re:I think their customers should sue them by StikyPad · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you'd have a hard time suing StarForce, since you never bought anything from them, nor did you buy the product expecting StarForce to effectively prevent you from copying. At least, you'd have a hard time convincing the judge that you were concerned about your right not to copy, so the case would probably be thrown out.

      You might be able to sue the publishers for artificially increasing the product price, but that's a huge stretch as well. The only real hope would be for shareholders to sue publishers for financial imprudence by licensing StarForce. Again, that would be a tough sell, since publishers would argue that they were exercising due dilligance in trying to prevent rampant copying. They'd also argue, accurately, that every copy protection scheme in the past has eventually been compromised, yet copy protection remains the industry standard, so there's no reason to single out StarForce protection as a waste of money. Additionally, the costs were recouped from the consumer, so it didn't hurt the company's bottom line.

      Furthermore, they would argue, the goal of modern copy protection is merely to extend the time between release of the title and release of a crack, which is believed to increase overall sales. Anecdotally, anyone who's ever read threads regarding games which took months to crack has doubtless seen the "Screw this, I'm buying the game," posts, so there's possibly some merit to publishers' thinking.

      --
      https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
  29. XIII and Starforce and my dead DVD drive by Barbarian · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A while back, in 2003, I downloaded the XIII demo. It was quite an interesting game concept but I didn't buy the game. Around the same time, my DVD reader/CD writer combo drive from Benq quit working--windows would only recognize it in PIO mode, and it made a lot of coasters. I didn't make the connection--instead, I reinstalled windows xp, and bought a new drive. That seemed to fix the problem. I just realized yesterday that the demo probably came with Starforce (most demos also come with it to prevent cracking the demo exe to aid in cracking the game) and hosed my writer just by being installed. Even after I uninstalled the demo, the drive still wouldn't work. The drive is still sitting on a shelf, and I bet it still works if I install it.

    There are probably at least thousands of people who got screwed like me.