How Palm's Treo Got Boost From BlackBerry Lawsuit

Carl Bialik from WSJ writes "Palm ramped up its marketing campaign for its Treo smartphone while rival Research in Motion was embroiled in a patent fight, the Wall Street Journal reports. 'The result: at least 1,500 new inquiries about the Treo in the past few months from corporate customers, resulting in 600 free trials, Palm says. In total, Palm says it has more than doubled its number of sales leads since October. "The doors have been opening," says Ed Colligan, Palm's chief executive. At a November staff meeting, Mr. Colligan says he told his staff to "step things up. We have to go back and knock on doors and respond as fast as we can." ... Internally, Palm executives say they believe that the Treo will outsell BlackBerrys by the end of this year.'"

Comments

Push email on the Treo?

[chaos-five]

Admittedly I've yet to own one of these --- does push email exist on the Treo? That seems to be the only thing keeping BlackBerry afloat.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[DJPenguin]

www.chatteremail.com - push email works really well with my home machine running Dovocot IMAP server.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[HaydnH]

Yes it does, have a look at chattermail as an example. Do a google search on "treo 650 push mail" for more alternatives.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least one email client, ChatterEmail (http://www.chatteremail.com/ - I am a satisfied user but otherwise have no connection) supports IMAP IDLE, which behaves about the same as blackberry-style push. Basically your Treo connects to the IMAP server and says "IDLE" which means "when anything changes, tell me about it." So new messages arriving triggers a message from the IMAP server to the client. From a user perspective, this is the same as push email -- it makes no difference to me whether the server or client technically initiates the connection. It has the advantage of being standards-based -- you are not tied to any particular server implementation.

There is also GoodLink, which I believe is more blackberry-style push where the network operator is involved -- network notices the device, tells the messaging server it's online, and then the messaging server initiates the connection and sends the data.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[ryran]

As they already said, Chatter rocks (especially if you already have push email with a great company like Fastmail). Marc Blanc, the developer, is amazingly productive and open to feedback. Looking at email for the Treo, whether you want push or not, Chatter is farrr better than everything else out there, imho. Just try it. He offers a full-featured 30-day trial still.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[fireboy1919]

What about lack of official support by T-mobile? Seems like a pretty gigantinormous stumbling block to me.

If I can get a Blackberry for $100 with a new plan, or a Treo for $300 that's plan independant, and I only use it for e-mail, which do you think I'm going to get?

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[Lumpy]

no.

the biggest problem is that the treo suffers from bad design. The battery when low will cause buzzing in the phone audio and the damned things lock up and die on a regular basis.

I have yet to have a blackberry lock up to the point of useless like the 4 treo's i have had all have done.

if you like to have a reliable phone. do NOT get a treo.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[Anonymous Coward]

I used Good Technology with my Treo 600 and I LOVED it. Never had to worry about missing an email/meeting request, no matter where I was.

http://www.good.com/

I'm waiting for the Treo700W GSM to come out now. My Treo 600 GSM is still my favorite phone of all time, and it's held up for over 2 years.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[chaos-five]

Mod coward up!

While this is true (re: standards-based), keeping a cellular data connection open constantly appears to be...less than ideal.

GoodLink, otoh, looks much more interesting.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[overbom]

T-Mobile used to carry the Treo 600, I think they switched to just Blackberries so as not to confuse their customers. I use T-Mobile quite happily, but T-Mobile's selection of phones is... lackluster. Just because T-Mobile doesn't carry a phone, it doesn't mean it's a ginormous stumbling block for the company. For example, T-Mobile (in the U.S., anyway) doesn't offer Sony Ericsson phones anymore, either.

Also, since T-Mobile is a GSM company, you can use pretty much any GSM phone you want, just make sure you get it unlocked.

Interestingly, the last time I called T-Mobile and asked if they'd be carrying the Treo, the rep started talking desperately to get a blackberry or one of the newer smartphones they had coming out. My prediction is that T-Mobile will start carrying the Treo again; all of their U.S. competitors do, after all.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[Anonymous Coward]

keeping a cellular data connection open constantly appears to be...less than ideal.

I guess... although the Chatter developer claims you transfer approximately the same amount of data no matter whether you use timed syncs or IDLE push. I believe that -- either you have the connection initiation data every time you wake up and sync, or you have smaller "hi, still idling" messages at similar intervals. Obviously he does not have a server-initiated-push mode in his application to compare against. But my guess would be the savings are not huge -- the bulk of the data is the body of the email, which has to be sent anyway; the difference is just any keep-alive messages to maintain the GRPS and IMAP connections. I can see this is not 100% ideal, and certainly not the cleanest design ever -- similar to the frustration with RSS feeds being pull not push. But like I said above, it's a 99% solution for most people.

My experience is the device lasts about 18-24 hours with Chatter running and continuously connected in the background, plus some phone and PDA use. I charge it every night, so that works fine for me. I know blackberries last for several days of continuous email operation, but I would attribute the difference more to screen type (Treo has a much better/brighter backlight and a sharper/larger screen) and the fact that I use my Treo as a cellphone too, which obviously drains the battery more quickly than data applications.

My treo is for personal use, so the Chatter solution is perfect for me. I just set it up like any mail client to connect to my existing IMAP service (a personal hosting plan at Dreamhost). Everything just works! I can see that this is not the proper model for large businesses, but for medium-sized and small organizations, and for places that place high value on interoperable standards and the ability to easily swap out or intermix server and client components from different vendors, this is a good fit.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[Dr. Sp0ng]

I used Chattermail back when I had my Treo, and yes, it is a fantastic email program. It's not exactly push, but it's more or less the same end result - it keeps an IMAP connection open using the IMAP IDLE command, so it's notified as soon as mail comes in (no delay caused by periodic fetching). The only problem, and it's a problem common to all pseudo-push solutions, is that it kills the battery life by keeping the network connected at all times. BlackBerry, and other true push solutions, don't keep a network connection open - one is opened by the server when mail arrives, and then closed again when it's done sending the message to the device.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[Queer Boy]

I have a Treo 650 and I have no clue what you're talking about. Bad for my battery, I almost always use it until it dies. Lots of people use hacks on Palm devices and then complain when it crashes, most likely that's what you're talking about.

My biggest problem with it is that the speakers aren't loud enough but I use volumecare to get around that. I also like MP3 ringtones and I use Ringo for that. Between the two, I'm sure that's where I get the random crash a week, but it's never been while using the phone.

As a phone, Blackberries are HORRID, the phone function ALWAYS wants to call the last number dialed, it's a stupid "feature" that persists in the newest devices. Plus you have to dial the number and then fiddle with the scroll on the right to activate a call. DUMB. There should be hardware buttons for call and end.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[amorformosus]

I don't know if you'd call it push email, but I have my gmail account coming to my treo. I also have an Exchange account coming to it, both via Versamail, the included mail client for the Treo.

Re:Push email on the Treo?

[dogriley]

I have worked to establish the Active sync connection (which provides the continuous polling that looks to the user like push) to Exchange server on one of the Samsung versions, running on Verizon's network.

I have yet to accomplish it. Documentation on how to set it up is sparce, and at one point we had a representitive from Samsumg, (they support the Active sync portion) and Verizon (they support the network) on the phone neither of which seemed to have ever done this before.

Admittedly we were trying to use a secure connection using SSL (god forbid security). But it seemed that the ability to preload a self signed SSL certificate and not use one that was from the 'big boys' was impossible.

After a few hours of my working through the tech net articles on this, and the Samsung rep suggesting that we hard reset the unit a second time to 'clean it out' we simply gave up.

Until this becomes something that the public at large can accomplish easily and with security, it is all just more MS hype.

my $.02

Ease of use or previousbad marketing?

[HaydnH]

Personally I love the Treo 650, but I'm a techie. While I believe the quality & functionality of the Treo far outweighs that of the blackberry I can see why the blackberry sales are better in comparison. Most execs I've met wouldn't know how to turn on a Treo let alone get their e-mail on it, the iPod is another good example of ease of use winning through.

Having said that, perhaps the 700w (and subsequent Windows versions) will help with the learning curve for execs.

Re:Ease of use or previousbad marketing?

[capecodcarl]

Having said that, perhaps the 700w (and subsequent Windows versions) will help with the learning curve for execs.

The synergy between the Windows OS and the Treo platform certainly creates an exciting new paradigm shift in the handheld market. Executives will see this as a new way to integrate wireless devices into their business processes in a way that will empower their knowledge workers while providing a solid return on investment for the company's strategic initiatives.

/BINGO!

Re:Ease of use or previousbad marketing?

[paesano]

"Having said that, perhaps the 700w (and subsequent Windows versions) will help with the learning curve for execs."

If ease of use is the issue, I don't see how the Windows versions will help anything. Compared to the 650 interface, Windows Mobile is a mess. Truly, the biggest problem with the 650 is stability. Windows Mobile addresses that, but ease of use? I don't think so.

Re:Ease of use or previousbad marketing?

[enantiodromia]

This is funny, because around here, the only people that carry Treos are the Sales guys who are the lest technical people in the whole company.

And why would you want to type on that tiny little keyboard? And run Windows on your mobile phone? I cant really think of a less desirable thing to carry with me.

Treo for the bling factor, Blackberry if you need to actually get some work done.

Re:Ease of use or previousbad marketing?

[Abcd1234]

The synergy between the Windows OS and the Treo platform certainly creates an exciting new paradigm shift

Are you an astroturfing marketdroid?

Re:Ease of use or previousbad marketing?

[Anonymous Coward]

You may want to check the batteries in your humor detector.

Re:Ease of use or previousbad marketing?

[dnoyeb]

I owned a treo 180 and then a newer one and I have been apalled at the quality of the Treo. If I go into a big store like Home Depot where I loose the signal. every time the signal peeks through it will open a *new* window asking for my PIN. So by the time I leave the store there are like ~50 windows (depending on how long i stay) open. I have to close each one at a time.

No fix, no acknowledgement. Since they dont acknowledge it, i can't tell if they fixed it on their new products or not. Also the flip phones all had problems with quality. Speakers going out, battery life poor, etc.

I had treo only because I came from a palm PDA. But with T-mobile refused to carry treo for whatever reason(everyone else does) I just made the jump to blackberry.

You can not be saying Treo has higher quality than a BlackBerry! This thing is seemless and has yet to cause me a single problem. Sure they got some growing to do with the functionality, but its much more stable and reliable than the treo.

I'm not going back. Only drawback of Blackberry is that they seem to be a bit Apple-esque in their control over software and you just can't find any free stuff out there...

Re:Ease of use or previousbad marketing?

[fratermus]

I run a used, unlocked Treo600 which I really like. It's stable, didn't cost much, and works fine for what I need. I went from carrying a phone, a palm500 and an mp3 player to carrying a treo600 with a 1gb card in it.

Plus it's a world-band GSM that you can pop 'most any prepaid sim into in most countries and get a signal.

I wonder

[Eightyford]

I wonder how many of those sales are for the Smartphone that runs Windows?

http://reviews.cnet.com/Palm_Treo_700w/4505-6452_7 -31473222.html

that sucks

[BewireNomali]

because i've used both, and the blackberry far eclipses the treo as a mobile email device.

the blackberry is popular because it does mobile email REALLY well. It also excels in one hand operation because of the clickable scroll wheel. It's also intuitive and easy to use - as well as significantly lighter than its bulk would indicate.

the blackberry isn't an browsing device - it's for voice and text - and it's ideally suited for the workplace.

I haven't used the windows mobile treos, but the palm treos are heavy with small keyboards. The units don't multitask well - and they CRASH. I've never hada blackberry crash - treos freeze up all the time.

maybe the windows mobile treos are better - but treos need to go a long way, from form factor onwards, to truly best the blackberry atwhat it does.

Re:that sucks

[HaydnH]

"I haven't used the windows mobile treos, but the palm treos are heavy with small keyboards. The units don't multitask well - and they CRASH. I've never hada blackberry crash - treos freeze up all the time."

FUD!! Treo's crash due to 3rd party applications (at least with up to date firmware and default applications). If you get a crash on a Treo you can dial #*377 (code is dependent on Treo type) and it will tell you what application crashed it - remove the 3rd party app that's crashing your system and your fine again! The main reason why the palm Treo's are so good is that there are loads of 3rd party apps, however a lot have been written by hobbyists or for previous versions of Palm OS - why do people keep blaming Palm for other peoples errors?

If I put a cron job on my Linux box doing an init 0 every 5 minutes does this mean Linux is unstable??

Re:that sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

8700c thoughts

no touchscreen - part of the reason the Treo/other touchscreen devices are so successful is because of the true one handed navigation the devices offer. Be honest, you really can't navigate and hold a bb with just one hand - one hand holds the device, the other does the wheel/click options.

side-wheel works well only in one hand - no joystick/d-pad - again, it's difficult to work the sidewheel because of it's awkward placement. People are much more used to navigating devices with their thumbs vs fingers (remote controls, xbox, etc.). plus the natural shape of the hand when the thumb is using a dpad allows for greater relaxation.

no SD slot - no possibility EVER of restoring from a backup dynamically. this is one area where good has rim beat hands down. if I break my device on the road, I need assistance from someone with the exchange admins to do a wireless activation. plus, how can I download attachments to my p series futjisu, work on them, and then send them back out via my device. upcoming versions of goodlink have promised this, not a possibility for RIM devices (unless you tether the device to the laptop, which would be technically cumbersome for the lawyers :)

speakerphone great - the speakerphone is a welcome improvement, even over the 650. in a quiet environment, the two devices are near equal, but on a bus/taxi/outside the 8700c shines.

gal lookups faster - due to the edge radio. this is welcomed

web pages faster - edge radio. although I'd like to see a percentage of how many staff actually make extensive use of this feature. having access to fast web is nice, but news.google.com on my Treo is just as good. this is addressed with the Treo 700w/p having evdo radios, and some of the HTC devices running WM5 also have EDGE radios built in.

emails sent faster - the new Intel processor makes the 8700 a snappier device overall. a welcomed and logical improvement.

screen better (why two levels of brightness) - the screen is nice and bright. I like how it seems to adjust to the ambient light level, although sometimes in bright outside light it seems to get overwhelmed and adjust itself to a lower light level, forcing me to hit the light button on the top of the unit

worse ergonomics - side thumb wheel sucks - again, it's not a one handed device. I challenge anyone to a functionality test between the 8700 and the Treo. it's unacceptable that RIM didn't replace the center button on the 8700 with a joy pad/stick. the treo's been out for almost 4 years now with that technology. the upcoming nokia e61/62 also incorporates a dpad in the center.

like the hard screen - protects against scratches - I've had a few devices replaced because the users cracked the screens. if you're not going to have a touchscreen, a hard overlay like the 8700 incorporates is great!

unit feels light/plasticky - I dropped it a few times: it didn't break but I just didn't like the heft of that device in my hand compared to the Treo or older bb's. unlike in Japan, making a device destined for north America too light or small is viewed as a bad thing.

emails don't update as quickly as goodlink. very sloow. very slow. annoying. this is probably my biggest complaint. the 8700 and entire RIM platform is still not a true wireless sync platform. I can't figure this out. why would you want to sync your device with a cable for anything (ok, syncing to a public folder is one exception, but I'm willing to bet this is minimal and could be addressed from the server side config). I've had emails sitting in my inbox outlook for over 10 minutes that I've deleted on the bb. this is just crap, especially considering the speed of the device.

don't like one inbox for everything - I've come to really like the true outlook like functionality of the goodlink suite. why don't I have multiple folders in RIM's world? why do I want to see my inbox and sent messages in one list? yes I know I can turn this off (and I did), but it's hard to go to my sent/delet

Re:that sucks

[Chanc_Gorkon]

How about the same reason we can blame Microsoft for breaking legacy apps between upgrades?? Palm's no different.

Re:that sucks

[Chris Burke]

Or how we can blame Windows 98 and older versions of Mac OS for crashing just because an application crashed.

I like PalmOS and I like my Treo 180 a lot, but I am starting to get sick of PalmOS' ancient technology. No memory protection? What century is this again?

Re:that sucks

[morgan_greywolf]

It also excels in one hand operation because of the clickable scroll wheel.

For most Slashdotters, this is, of course, the most important feature any Web-enabled mobile device. ;-)

Re:that sucks

[BewireNomali]

dude, this is a work phone assigned to me at work. I EXPECT to turn it on and for it to work. Isn't that what apple fans always laud about?

Blackberry - I turned it on and it worked. One hand operation - scroll to a number in contacts, click to call. click to disconnect. scroll to email with dial, click to read. if i need to reply I do, otherwise, I'm on my way. I find it hard pressed for anyone to make it simpler.

Re:that sucks

[TrueJim]

I agree. My employer issued me a Blackberry while my personal cellphone was a Treo 650 (The Treo replaced my previous Kyocera smartphone when it died). After a few weeks with the Blackberry, I stopped carrying the Treo entirely.

As a techno-geek, I was originally excited by the Treo's extensive feature-set, as compared to the Blackberry. But the Treo's short battery life made it die often, no matter that I had chargers at home, office, and car. The PalmOS caused the Treo to crash often. And the Treo is very heavy (I tend to carry my cellphones in my pocket). Combine these three factors, and I eventually found that the Blackberry was always within reach, always charged, and always running -- while my Treo was always left behind, uncharged, and frequently locked-up. (I recently "downgraded" from my Treo to a RAZR so once again I'm back to carrying my personal cellphone as well as my work Blackberry. My Year of Treo will forever go down in my personal history as a bad, bad gadget year.)

Final note: the Treo is bad about "staying on a data call" even when no data applications are running (as opposed to my old Kyocera, which was smart enough to hang up when it didn't need data) so Verizon has to sell you a -very- expensive "unlimited minutes" data plan to compensate (or else deal with hordes of very angry customers who get charged monthly for air-time they didn't use).

Re:that sucks

[diamondsw]

Amen to that. My Treo has dozens of applications and even a couple of sketchy hacks, and it is still rock solid. It hasn't crashed once since I disabled TreoGuard (a third party app I was using to shut off the phone at night), and that was over 9 months ago.

The Treo is the most versatile device I've ever used, wrapped in a great, simple, and above all usable interface. A great phone, great synchronization with my computer (I use Missing Sync on Mac OS X for sync with Address Book, iCal, iTunes, iPhoto, file sync, etc), it has full internet access, multimedia capability, games, you name it. I now have a single address book that supplies my phone, PDA, e-mail, instant messaging, etc. And did I mention it wraps all of this functionality in a really, really usable easy interface?

Just try to do a *fraction* of this on a BlackBerry. On a BlackBerry you get... e-mail. Yay.

On my Treo now (off topic, but damn, it's a versatile device):

Internet
MicroVNC - not just VNC, but SSH tunnelling, TightVNC and server side scaling support - secure access to my desktop from anywhere
Directory Asistance - Great front-end interface to online yellow pages, white pages, etc
KMaps - Google Maps on my phone - excellent
pssh - SSH from anywhere
Quick News - RSS feeds on the go (you like them on the desktop? They're invaluable on the phone)

Multimedia
TCPMP - The Core Pocket Movie Player - plays anything I throw at it - MPEG-4, DiVX, etc, and plays the full-size versions, too! Incredible performance, and open source.
pTunes - A usable iTunes-ish music player with playlists, skins, and the like
Camera/RescoView/etc - don't forget the camera, video recording, or taking your photos with you

Productivity
DocsToGo - Office documents
PalmPDF - Based on xpdf, and works really well
Pocket Quicken - Manage my finances and enter Quicken data anywhere
SoundRec - Voice Recorder for quick notes

Games (of course)
Bejeweled2 (because my wife is addicted to it)
CliFrotz - Adventure, Zork, etc will never die :)
Frodo - Because running my first computer on my phone is too much fun
ScummVM - Classic games are still great

Re:that sucks

[C-Dilla]

I used a treo 600(with Goodlink for e-mail push) for about a year, and it raised my blood pressure so much I now consider Treo's hazardous to my health. 2 or 3 times A DAY the treo would lock up just as an incoming call rang the phone, so it would be frozen, ringing, and I could do nothing about it but reset. The device seemed to be unable to keep an internet connection - I would get instantaneous e-mail for an hour or two at a stretch, then I would get no e-mail for a while, and out of curiosity I'd do a manual send/recieve and have like 10 e-mails flood in. It was heavy, and the screen was terrible. I will never buy a treo, I don't care how good everyone says they've gotten - the 600 caused me so much stress I will not reward Palm with my business.

Currently I use an HP iPAQ 6515, it's been good so far. E-mail works pretty well, internet browsing is serviceable in a pinch, phone is pretty good, and it includes not one but two(2) SD card slots- a regular SD and a mini-SD. I think that's pretty awesome. Also has integrated GPS that I haven't played around with yet.

Once you get used to having always-on e-mail, it's tough to go without it. The people I work with who use blackberries say they work well, and I think most people use it just for mobile e-mail.

Re:that sucks

[letxa2000]

I recently had to decide on whether or not to get a Treo 650. I had read all the complaints but also knew someone that had a Treo 600 (600 no less!) and couldn't say enough good things about it. So I made the plunge.

I absolutely love my Treo. I use it as my exclusive personal line--I don't have a home phone line. It just works. I can browse the web, use all the Palm apps I'm used to using, use Bluetooth, use it to let my laptop get to the Internet if I do not have Internet connectivity.

It has reset once, but that was because I was using a third-party multi-protocol stay-resident instant messaging app. I found I didn't use that much anyway so I deleted it and haven't had any problems since.

I agree that stability problems seem to be third party apps rather than the phone or OS itself. In any case, I wouldn't swap my Treo for a Blackberry if you paid me.

Re:that sucks

[Dr. Sp0ng]

I had a Treo 650 for about 6 months. It crashed CONSTANTLY, even with ZERO third-party software on it. PalmOS just does not have the memory protection and multitasking needed for modern applications. Now I have a BlackBerry and nothing could convince me to go back to Palm (actually I've been a Palm user since the dawn of time [ok, 1997] and the Treo debacle made me swear off their products forever). I can't use a device that I can't rely on (crashing when trying to answer an incoming call is simply unacceptable).

The Treo is the most versatile device I've ever used, wrapped in a great, simple, and above all usable interface. A great phone, great synchronization with my computer (I use Missing Sync on Mac OS X for sync with Address Book, iCal, iTunes, iPhoto, file sync, etc), it has full internet access, multimedia capability, games, you name it. I now have a single address book that supplies my phone, PDA, e-mail, instant messaging, etc. And did I mention it wraps all of this functionality in a really, really usable easy interface?

Just try to do a *fraction* of this on a BlackBerry. On a BlackBerry you get... e-mail. Yay.

Um... on my BlackBerry I have all that, minus the audio/video stuff. I have an RSS reader, I have Google Maps, I have an SSH client, I can read Office docs and PDFs, and I have a better web browser [Opera] than anything that exists on the Palm platform... and the syncing with Exchange is MILES ahead of what you can do with a Treo (make a change in Outlook, and it's there in my BlackBerry a minute later, and vice versa). All my contacts, calendars, email, notes, everything. It's all synced wirelessly and automatically. I've had this thing for 4-5 months now and it's never even been plugged into a computer (and it hasn't crashed once).

Yes, the Treo is more featureful, and there's far more 3rd party software. But when the basic (and most important) functions are unreliable, all the features and 3rd-party addons in the world don't matter. The BlackBerry is a true geek device - it has a small set of functionality, but it does it perfectly. The Treo tries to be all things to all people and ends up doing nothing well.

That said, I do have one big gripe with the BlackBerry - horrendous (HORRENDOUS!) fonts, and apparently no way to do anything about it. The Treo has horrible fonts out of the box too, but there are addons that add gorgeous, anti-aliased fonts.

Re:that sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason the Treo is better is because you can turn the phone into anything.

In addition to the standard apps that come with it, i've installed
- Bhajis Loops - remix music samples
- Filez - browse and delete the file structure (internal and expansion memory)
- Lispme - write and run programs in Scheme (a Lisp dialect)
- PdaNet - turns the phone into an internet connection for the pc
- PdaReach - control the phone using the pc in a remote desktop like interface
- peditPro - powerful text editor that can convert doc from expansion card
- QuickNews - RSS feed gatherer and reader
- VolumeCare - Adjust the volume levels for handset, speakerphone, headset, mic, speaker, ringtone
- Xiino - Second web browser

I may next install
- MP3 ringtone player
- Utility to run applications from the expansion card as needed

Sure, it crashes about twice a month. If I was overly concerned about it, I would uninstall some things.

Good review site
http://blog.treonauts.com/

Re:that sucks

[anothy]

see, my experience is exactly the opposite. i was brought in as IT Director of a medium-sized company. about a half-dozen of the senior execs had blackberries, but none were really happy with them. i was issued one, asked to evaluate it, and make a recommendation. after a little while using the things, i understood why the Blackberries were so unloved. the proposed replacement (this was coming up on 3 years ago; the Treo 600 wasn't around yet) was a Tungsten M. it went over really, really well. everyone who got one thought it was an improvement over the Blackberry. we dumped the Blackberries within a month. folks have subsequently upgraded to Treo 600s and 650s.
now we've got a pair of new execs in from other companies; they brought their Blackberries with them, sadly. and unlike the last batch, these guys are addicted and unwilling to try anything else. i'm not in IT any more, so i don't have the "joy" of dealing with them directly... i just get the stupid email restrictions and whatnot that come with their awful service.

Re:that sucks

[timeOday]

FUD!! Treo's crash due to 3rd party applications

That's not good enough. I can't speak directly to Treos, but Palms have really outgrown the toy OS phase. They direly need a real OS with memory protection, and a rich enough API so that system utilities don't have to be written as "hacks."

Re:that sucks

[BewireNomali]

note that my original point was about voice and text. voice and text. i wouldn't personally buy a BB or a treo - these are devices given to me by work. Given a choice - the BB works right out of the box - single hand operation and intuitive at that.

I don't want to install apps. This is a WORK phone. I want voice and text. It should NEVER crash. It should have a good battery life - be cheap and easy to replace, be lightweight and easy to use.

Again, voice and text. Treo does not match the BB at voice and text. That's why businesses embrace blackberry.

why is it that when the ipod discussions occur, its lack of features is considered a plus? When we discuss BBs, all of a sudden they aren't feature filled enough. Odd and inconsistent.

Blackberries are great at what they do - it's why they're widely adopted by the business community. ipods are great at what they do - it's why everyone has one. Simple.

Re:that sucks

[briareus]

A geek or a good IT person cna make that distinction. However, it's really irrelevant to your average Joe business man or, even worse, average Joe exec. Those of you who don't know that really need a dose of corporate world reality.

Re:that sucks

[amorformosus]

I've been using my Treo for a little over half a year. I find that there are a few issues that arise from time to time (random reboots every few weeks), but overall, I think it functions great. I do agree that it probably isn't just comparable to an email/voice tool. It does a lot more. I can check my email, browse the web, and reboot a server either via RDP or SSH depending on the server flavor. I personally also like the heavy feel of it. The blackberry feels plastic and fragile. But I imagine that's a matter of taste. As for the one handed use, that's the only way I use my Treo 650. The 5-button pad makes it very versatile. I've got a screen cover that I never open, because I never need to. I would definitely say that the Treo isn't necessarily the best email/phone solution. But it IS a great phone/email/web/pictures/all-in-one device. And the 700 (windows mobile and palm os coming out this summer) has high speed access, as well as a 1.3 MP camera. SO yeah, all that to say Treo's are the bomb.

Re:that sucks

[emilymildew]

I can read AND edit Word and Excel files on my 650. And there exists Opera for the Palm. (but it kinda blows) Not saying that what you haven't isn't best for you, just providing more info.

Re:that sucks

[iwnbs]

I just got my new 7100i two days ago. It has antialiased fonts that are crisp and beautiful. I highly recommend it. Where did you get your SSH client?

Re:that sucks

[Dr. Sp0ng]

A quick Google search shows you can do that on the BlackBerry too - DynoPlex claims to be able to do it, although I've never used it.

And is there really an Opera for Palm? When I had my Treo, the word from Opera was that PalmOS was so lame and ass-backwards that they weren't going to even attempt a port. I hadn't heard anything about it since then (and that really wasn't that long ago).

Re:that sucks

[valintin]

Systems should not crash due to 3rd party applications.

If an application crashes, the system should tell me what application crashed and why the system had to kill it.

If you put a cron job on your Linux box doing an init 0 every 5 minutes you should get a request to login in as root every 5 minutes.

Re:that sucks

[Dr. Sp0ng]

I had a 7100 before I returned it for an 8700, and the fonts were no better there (actually they were pretty much exactly the same, but the 8700 has a few the 7100 didn't). Yes, there is the option for antialiasing, but it's half-assed antialiasing that barely does anything and doesn't help improving the appearance of the fonts. They're extremely readable, but hideously ugly (when BBMillbank Tall, size 8 bold is the nicest-looking font on there, something's wrong). Compare the fonts on a BlackBerry to those of a Windows Mobile 5 device, and there's just no comparison (text on my Axim looks almost like ink on paper). As for an SSH client, there are a few, but this is the best one I've found.

Re:that sucks

[Doctor Faustus]

But when the basic (and most important) functions are unreliable, all the features and 3rd-party addons in the world don't matter.

What's most important is different for different people. Personally, I have no use for a PDA that doesn't run the calculator program that I paid $15 for in 1999 (RPN).

Re:that sucks

[Dr. Sp0ng]

Heh. Then get yourself a calculator, or pay another $15 for an RPN calculator progarm on a more stable platform (having a PDA/Smartphone platform that doesn't crash all the time would be worth spending $15 if you ask me...)

But hell, it's your life. If you can live with an unstable and extremely insecure environment, knock yourself out. Myself, I need to be able to rely on my PDA/phone, and PalmOS just isn't up to the task (just like I wouldn't run XP on, say, the computer running a life support system).

Re:that sucks

[iwnbs]

Hmm...I have to agree with you about the Axim having superior fonts (I have an X30 advanced), but I have no problems with BBMillbank at size 7. I just tried your recommendation of BB Tall 8, but it kinda' gives me a headache looking at "stretched" fonts after looking at the "non-Tall" version for awhile. To each his own, I guess. Thanks for the Idokorro link. I'll definitely give their apps a whirl.

Re:that sucks

[Doctor Faustus]

Physical calculators and the other postfix calculator programs that I've seen don't show the contents of the stack and let you rearrange them like RPN does. If I want an equivilant on another platform, I'm probably going to have to write it.

Re:that sucks

[Dr. Sp0ng]

I haven't looked specifically, but I'm sure there are plenty of J2ME RPN calculators (and that's all the BlackBerry is - a J2ME device with a bunch of added APIs. All the standard J2ME APIs are there, though, so you can run any old J2ME application).

And in any case, it's not like an RPN calculator is at all complicated - assuming you're a half-decent programmer, you could write one that behaves how you'd like in a weekend.

Re:that sucks

[Moofie]

"why is it that when the ipod discussions occur, its lack of features is considered a plus? When we discuss BBs, all of a sudden they aren't feature filled enough. Odd and inconsistent."

Two different people arguing two different positions in two different discussions are not inconsistent. You are not debating a hive mind.

I like the design of my iPod, and I like the versatility of my Treo. I have few, if any, stability issues, and I have a number of apps that Make My Life Easier, none of which are available on Blackberry.

And if I used a Blackberry, I'd have to find an Exchange server to install the server software on, and I'd rather nail my tongue to my desk.

Re:that sucks

[nightfire-unique]

Treo's crash due to 3rd party applications (at least with up to date firmware and default applications).

Nice try. Third party applications (whatever that means; this is a general purpose computer) do exaggerate the problem, but it stems from a number of flawed design decisions.

- NVFS / DBcache (somewhat fixed in latest firmware)
- Single threaded operation (supporting "background tasks" with a shared stack)
- No memory protection
- Buggy hardware (bluetooth reliability for me is about 85%)

Believe my, I love my Treo. But it was rushed out the door a year too early. It was not, and still to a large degree is not ready. PalmOne support is horrendously bad. I've exchanged my unit several times before I found one which was stable (though it still crashes or locks about once a week).

And yes, I was running the stripped Chinese (APR) 1.71 rom with English language files the day it was released; this certainly helped over the stock rom, but even the ROW 1.71 isn't where it should be in this day and age.

Re:that sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed with you on two points. I am not debating, as Slashdot simply does not tolerate opposing viewpoints. And Slashdot is a hive mind, with its members espousing rather odd identical stances on consumer electronics products.

Re:that sucks

[Buran]

Opera Mini on Treo (30 Days to becoming an Opera8 Lover)

Since it's a Java app it works on any device that can run the appropriate Java VM, and there is one for the Treo 650. I do not use it on my 650, but it is there.

Re:that sucks

[ncc74656]

Final note: the Treo is bad about "staying on a data call" even when no data applications are running (as opposed to my old Kyocera, which was smart enough to hang up when it didn't need data) so Verizon has to sell you a -very- expensive "unlimited minutes" data plan to compensate (or else deal with hordes of very angry customers who get charged monthly for air-time they didn't use).

Better yet, you could've gotten the more reasonably-priced unlimited data plan from Sprint ($15/month) and used that. I have that on my Treo 650, and it works well with apps on the phone and with my notebook (booted into either Windows or Linux). Combined with the cheapest voice plan, I'm paying no more for voice and data than I used to pay T-Mobile for voice only, and I still have more voice airtime (250 minutes per month) than I'll ever use.

BTW, I wasn't aware that 4-5 days constituted "short battery life." That's about what I've been getting. I replaced the bundled sync cable with one that enables charging over USB, so I can plug it in anywhere if it needs a charge.

Re:that sucks

[Doctor Faustus]

Yes, I expect it'd be a quick job, except I'd need to learn how to do J2ME GUIs, first.

Re:that sucks

[arodland]

I don't want to install apps. This is a WORK phone. I want voice and text. It should NEVER crash. It should have a good battery life - be cheap and easy to replace, be lightweight and easy to use.

That doesn't sound like a blackberry then. It sounds like a phone.

Re:that sucks

[okmijnuhb]

Ok so how do I remove hot sync?

Re:that sucks

[Dr. Sp0ng]

The J2ME APIs, GUI included, are incredibly simple. You can learn enough to make an RPN calculator in a couple hours of reading and experimenting.

Re:that sucks

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

The only time my Treo 600 has crashed when I was using a 3rd party hack. And even then, it wasn't often or very bad. And of course they don't multitask very well, nothing that size does in practice. Just how many applications do you need to be running at the same time on a mobile phone/PDA?

My understanding is yes (and no)

[blueZ3]

I don't think that Treos come from Palm with this capability, but there is 3rd-party software that allows you to push email to the Treo. I'm not sure if there's an Exchange plug-in or whatnot, but I've seen several different applications that allow IMAP mail to be pushed.

Re:My understanding is yes (and no)

[chaos-five]

This was the answer I was looking for: thank you.

Given that all the BlackBerry buzz I hear about from business-types revolves around instant email, I'm not sure how Treo can compete without an on-device provider-supported solution.

Re:My understanding is yes (and no)

[Anonymous Coward]

Errrm. http://www.seven.com/

Look for a local carrier or just get your own workgroup solution. I use it in the UK with Orange, a product called Orange office freedom.

AC

Re:My understanding is yes (and no)

[CodeArtisan]

This was the answer I was looking for: thank you. Given that all the BlackBerry buzz I hear about from business-types revolves around instant email, I'm not sure how Treo can compete without an on-device provider-supported solution.

A number of corporate IT departments (including mine) like to use Goodlink on the 650 - which, as well as push email, also implements wireless synchronization with calendar and contacts etc. Add Documents to Go and you can open native MS Office and pdf attachments.

I hope it works

[yog]

I am a Palm user from way back and I am dying for a Treo, but I don't want to buy one and then see Palm go under or sell out or otherwise orphan their products. I want to see lots o' new stuff coming out for Palm platform and I don't want to have to get a Windows-based handheld in a year or two. Go Palm!

That said, I wish it were happening because of free and fair competition rather than that some predatory patent holder with a team of clever lawyers screwed a great company through bogus patent suits. I hope Rim bounces back, too.

Re:I hope it works

[stickyc]

am a Palm user from way back and I am dying for a Treo, but I don't want to buy one and then see Palm go under or sell out or otherwise orphan their products. I want to see lots o' new stuff coming out for Palm platform and I don't want to have to get a Windows-based handheld in a year or two. Go Palm!

What bad would happen if you bought a Treo and Palm went under? They don't provide the back end (IE - your phone wont go dead) and they dont produce any add-on items that aren't made (often better) by 3rd parties. Assuming they outlive the short warrantee period, I don't really see it having a negative impact. In short - buy it now!

Maybe.

[LWATCDR]

The reason I didn't get a Treo was the data plan that they wanted to sell me.
I got a Samsung A900. It supports Sprints new Power Vision high speed network. I can surf to any site including slashdot, I can get my email, set appointments on my calendar. It is also super small and has a great screen. The battery only lasts for one day but I can live with that.
The current Treos that support high speed all run Windows. I have heard very mixed reviews on them and Verizon charges a lot more for the data plan for the Treo than other phones.
I will look a the the Treo when they have there new Linux based PalmOS and the Data plan costs the same as my current one. Oh and PUT SOME RAM on the bloody things!

Re:Maybe.

[LiquidEdge]

The EV-DO network is *supposed* to be a software solution, not in the hardware, so we may see hacks for our 650's soon.

Re:Maybe.

[LWATCDR]

I heard that EV-DO required hardware to support it. With FPGAs, DSPs, and "soft radios" what is hardware and isn't is hard to say. I have friends that like their 650s but I can do everything they use their treos for with my much smaller and cheaper cell. I am not saying that some people don't need a Treo but most of the people I see using them really don't use them to their full potential.
I am not writing them off yet. I have high hopes. But you have to agree Palm should stick more Ram in the thing.

Re:Maybe.

[Jonboy X]

Word on the rumor sites is that the 700p (for PalmOS, as opposed to 700w for Windows) should be out around late May/early June. Roughly the same hardware specs as the 700w, including Sprint's EVDO high-speed network.

Re:Maybe.

[LiquidEdge]

More RAM in the onboard would definitely be nice because it can be a pain in the ass to run things from the SD. Treo's success is going to come down to price point. If they can drop their pants on the price for a bit, they're going to be able to build some pretty good market momentum.

Re:Maybe.

[mbowen]

I'm a longtime power user; I have a Treo 650 and got it the first day. I've never used a Blackberry nor have I really wanted one. Push email is over-rated. As many phone calls and SMSs as I get, I really don't need one more distraction. The 650 is great on battery. I can go two days easily with no charge and three if I don't have any conference calls. It's true that memory management sucks on the Treo and when you get low it occasionally reboots, but since I'm a programmer I know that's my fault. If I simply purge old emails and messages I don't have a problem. The browser and web access are great. I've even abandoned my more expensive EVDO. (However my car has sat-nav, otherwise I would use EVDO for Google Maps on the laptop, which is basically the only killer app besides open ports behind firewalls, not an issue for me these days.) What I'm looking for is a balance between mobility, functionality and pocket space, with a little bit of redundancy for security's sake. I can keep files on the palm and infrared them to and from my laptop. I'm thinking about a PSP but it doesn't seem to be the choice for music. The palm LifeDrive is too small with regards to storage - I'd prefer something with 10GB and that way I'd take a simpler phone. The LifeDrive would be perfect with 20GB, wifi and bluetooth. Until that day the 650 is as good as it gets. I've got Sudoku, a camera, videocam and voice recorder and access to Office files & PDFs on my phone. That says it all.

Re:Maybe.

[diamondsw]

Or get a Treo 700p from Sprint in May. All of the goodness of the Palm OS, all of the new hardware from the 700w. And the simple (and cheap!) pricing plans from Sprint. I have unlimited data use for $15 a month, and fully supported Bluetooth DUN for my laptop. Verizon just enjoys raping your ass repeatedly.

Re:Maybe.

[gregeth]

I just want to know why there aren't more smart phones with built in wifi. Sure I get the whole convenience of net access on the phone anywhere, but I'm almost always at someplace that has 802.11b/g. I know there are some, but very few.

I know the obvious answer to this is that the cell phone companies are greedy, but I would be willing to pay more for the phone with wifi instead of using the cell phone companies overpriced slow connection.

Re:Maybe.

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

The reason I didn't get a Treo was the data plan that they wanted to sell me.

Bloody US cell networks... Vodafone didn't sell the Treo 600 in a nice, Vodafone branded box when I was looking to buy it, so I simply bought it from a local computer store and inserted my Vodafone SIM card into it. :)

You are already screwed

[soft_guy]

The Treo 700 is a Windows CE based device. The 650 will be the last Palm OS based Treo.

I own a Treo 600 and I really like it, but I too do not want a Windows CE based device, so the 600 will probably be my last Treo.

Re:You are already screwed

[HaydnH]

Actually there's a Treo 700P (palm based) which is coming out this year (perhaps may?) check the treocentral forums for more info.

Re:You are already screwed

[Chanc_Gorkon]

There's going to be a 700p running Palm....care to try again??

Re:You are already screwed

[soft_guy]

Thanks for letting me know - I had not been keeping up with all the Treo rumor sites.

I'm pretty surprised about this given that I remember something about Palm Source being sold last. I don't remember the details, but it sure sounded like the Palm OS was dead.

If they come out with the 700p, I'll probably buy one.

Re:You are already screwed

[overbom]

Yes, PalmOS was bought by a company called ACCESS; they've announced the new Linux-based OS version.

You can read about it here: Access Linux Platform.

Re:You are already screwed

[Queer Boy]

The 650 will be the last Palm OS based Treo.

There's no information ANYWHERE that this is true. Just looking at the sales of the Treo 650, which dominates the smartphone market, it's clear that a PalmOS-based smartphone is where it's at. There have been statements made by people at Palm (with all the mergers, splits and buyouts, who know who said them and if they hold) that the Treo 650 MIGHT be the last GARNET-based Treo, whereas there will be COBALT-based Treos coming up.

Re:You are already screwed

[DonCarlos]

I'd not bet a penny for Cobalt. It's mostly dead before it was born. No device uses Cobalt nor it's know there's any licensee. No apps is being developed for Cobalt. Even Palm related engineers say od dev forum to not care Cobalt. It might however appear that Access' Linux based OS will be Garnet successor though.

And why not?

[HerculesMO]

Blackberries SUCK. They are slow, delete messages with the swiftness of molasses, have few applications, can't use the screen for any interaction, and more. With the combination of GoodLink for email syncing to Exchange, the Treo is a winner. RIM's solution is really FAR in the past. Just because you are the biggest, doesn't mean you're the best. With RIM's legal troubles they have let open the floodgates to let others see that there are better solutions than the 'market leader'.

This, coming from a person who managed both Goodlink (with Treos) and a Blackberry Enterprise Server. People get so touchy with their devices that they don't want to switch (NO, I LOVE MY BLACKBERRY NO TREO FOR ME! -- and vice versa).

Re:And why not?

[enantiodromia]

You must have had a shitty Blackberry then dude. My 2290 is super fast. I can delete all messages just as fast as I can delete one message, in about .25 seconds.

Syncing with BES makes my life about 10 times easier. I have never had a any of these problems you are referring to.

I think you are compairing Blackberries from years ago with the Treos of today.

Have fun running Windows on your mobile phone.

Re:And why not?

[HerculesMO]

Sorry to say, but Windows Mobile runs a helluva lot better than Blackberry. I am *not* referring to older Blackberries... I have a 7250 (all I do is read messages, never really send any), and the deleting items is a problem when you have a lot of messages. It takes a LONG time.

That said, I wasn't even referring to the Windows Mobile Treos... I don't like the new one, I prefer the 650 to it, however your comment makes it very apparent your disdain for Microsoft in general. I can't say I'm suprised, I am on the most zealotous Linux site there is -- it's just entertaining how many people can't give MS a bit of credit for producing some nice stuff. They do in the end, have smart engineers, as does Google and Yahoo, even if they are led by Bill Gates.

Re:And why not?

[codepunk]

Yea and I bet your treo battery life sucks compared to the blackberry. My blackberry holds it's charge for nearly a week, bet that windows mobile crap cannot do that.

Re:And why not?

[HerculesMO]

Two or three days... which is why everybody gets a travel charger and puts it into their car or suitcase when travelling. I can't say I know much about the Windows Mobile devices though, as we only have one floating around from the 'bleeding edge' guy who is suffering now, because the Goodlink software hasn't updated to support the new Treo properly yet.

So hostile by the way? Did Microsoft steal one of your children? I am not even talking about the Windows devices, yet you seem intent on going back to a conversation that I'm not even engaging you in.

Reading comprehension is FUN!

Re:And why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

BlackBerry is , by far, the best mobile email device out there. No other handheld comes close to it.

Treo + GoodLink better than Blackberry

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that a Wall Street Journal reporter does not know that you need GoodLink to make a Treo better than BlackBerry does not surprise me.

TREO 650

[Reflex4468]

I've got a 650. It was my first Palm device, and I can now not live without it. I am a Professional Sound Tech, and now could not live without having internet and email coming to a device in my pocket. There is not an email push(yet), but it is coming. I automatically download my email every hour, which is fine for me. I currently use my treo for a movie player, mp3 player, cell phone, email reciever, computer remote control, and personal organizer. Go buy one.

Re:TREO 650

[MagicMike]

You need ChatterMail and an IMAP server that supports the IDLE command (uw-imap does, for instance, they may all support it now).

email "push", using open standards, but with a chattermail license

Push with Cingular on Treo

[Hegemony]

I actually have used both a Blackberry and a Treo 650 simultaneously for work (BB for email, Treo for phone features). Recently I installed the Cingular "Xpress" software. It can work with corporate email that does use a redirector but is actually pushing the email to my Treo. Sent items are synched, email read on the Treo are marked as read on my desktop, Calendar is synched, I can search corporate contact lists, etc. Not too bad. I haven't picked up my Blackberry in about a month.

Re:Push with Cingular on Treo

[jojo1835]

yeah, but doesn't Xpress require Lotus Notes or Outlook and Windows? Not much of a cross platform solution. Not to mention, if I need to keep my laptop on for this stuff to sync, it can't exactly be in my briefcase with me on the way to a meeting.

Check it out here http://www.cingular.com/midtolarge/xpress_mail_per sonal#

Tim

Lots of inquiries, not so many buyers.

[Jack Johnson]

I imagine most of the attention came from people like me. Even though my employer would have been "exempt" from a shutdown, I was tasked with investigating alternatives to BB handhelds and BES last fall when the threat against RIM appeared to be real.

The worrying is over now and we're sticking with BB/BES.

Re:Lots of inquiries, not so many buyers.

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Yeah, but now that Palm have got their foot in the door, many people might decide that they're offering a better product. So the RIM lawsuit is still of some benifit to Palm.

I would guess not THAT much

[emo boy]

I just don't think that the Windows Treo has had enough time to gain that kind of traction. It's appealing but I don't know if people are hyped enough about the Windows Treo for it to be killing anything in the marketplace. I would expect the next iteration to be a real killer!

Re:I would guess not THAT much

[overbom]

The 700 is doing quite well -- Palm stepped in to a new market with it; it's not really much of a comptetitor to the other Palm OS 5 based Treos. Worse screen, better bluetooth, better camera, faster internet. There were a lot of folks with iPaqs and the like, and a lot of them are moving to the 700w. Rest assured, the traction is quite good for the device.

Treo 600 a nightmare/Treo 650 perfect for my needs

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a Treo 600, and it was a catastrophy, so much that after a lot of arguing (and having to put some money in) I got a 650. ...and all the problems have gone.

I also seen and SPV 500 in use and the Treo is faster, with a very good keyboard.

The other keyboard-equipped phones I've seen are too big. (and the blackberry is an ugly brick IMHO)

An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[DysenteryInTheRanks]

Instead of piggybacking on legal FUD, how about making a product that works?

Here's the score on Palm and its Treo:

Hardware: Famously prone to failure.

Software: Palm thinks so highly of its PalmOS that it has switched over to Windows Mobile!

If you *did* like PalmOS, as I did, this is not an encouraging sign about Palm's support for the platform (you still can't make an appointment starting at 11 pm and ending at 12:30 am, or view national holidays, on the Calendar).

If you don't like PalmOS, well, you may be one of the first Windows Mobile fans on the planet, or you're shopping for a Nokia.

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[Anonymous Coward]

Palm has no control over PalmOS, which is currently being rewritten to run on top of linux.

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[james_shoemaker]

If you *did* like PalmOS, as I did, this is not an encouraging sign about Palm's support for the platform (you still can't make an appointment starting at 11 pm and ending at 12:30 am, or view national holidays, on the Calendar).


    HUH? both are fine for me. Just import the holidays as appointments, how hard is that?

James

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[DysenteryInTheRanks]

I'm not sitting there every year punching in two dozen holidays. Granted, some can be made to repeat, but many fall on odd times. There is no option in Palm for "Repeat first weekday after date X in month X" or "Repeat every Third Thursday in November." This is a basic feature of every paper calendar on the market. The people at Palm are total tools.

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[james_shoemaker]

I'm not sitting there every year punching in two dozen holidays. Granted, some can be made to repeat, but many fall on odd times. There is no option in Palm for "Repeat first weekday after date X in month X" or "Repeat every Third Thursday in November." This is a basic feature of every paper calendar on the market. The people at Palm are total tools.

    or just download them?
http://www.freewarepalm.com/clock/clock_calendar.s html
    and there is a third in option.

James

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[DysenteryInTheRanks]

That looks cool, thanks. I wish they'd keep the PalmOS platform for precisely this reason -- cool 3rd party stuff (I bought an app called ShadowPlan). But I fear the worst given the Microsoft partnership.

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[DysenteryInTheRanks]

Actually the links on that site are 404, the real holiday download is off

http://www.martinsmaha.net/software/index_Page34 7.html

But in any case Palm Desktop will not import the DBA file, pops up an error dialog about it being an unsupported format. Maybe because I'm on a Mac? This is precisely why Palm should build it in.

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[DysenteryInTheRanks]

Ahh, apparently Palm's own DBA format isn't even cross-platform from Palm Desktop Mac to Palm Desktop Windows:

http://www.assburger.org/defcon-13/

By the way, I love how Palm won't even host user-made freeware for their own platform. Only paid software. Genius.

As I said, Palm sucks ass. I rest my case.

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[james_shoemaker]

But in any case Palm Desktop will not import the DBA file, pops up an error dialog about it being an unsupported format. Maybe because I'm on a Mac? This is precisely why Palm should build it in.


    I have no interest in having them built in, if I want them I will go and get them, please don't clutter my calendar with useless entries. The only holidays that I want in my calendar are the ones that my company follows, the rest are just confusing.

    I am sorry that the linked files don't work with mac Palm Desktop, that is a really stupid move on their part, try vcal import. I know there are vcal us holiday files out there (My company provides their holidays to employees in vcal format).

    And they aren't giving up on palm, just adding Windows Mobile to the mix for those who aren't interested in palm.

James

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[DysenteryInTheRanks]

OK, now I feel fairly dumb: after Googling for "vcal holidays" I found a page that stated Palm Desktop 4+ ship with holiday files. I ran a Help search for "holidays" in Palm Desktop, which told me:

Importing holidays into Date Book

You can import files into Palm(TM) Desktop software that add holidays to your Date Book.

To import holidays:

1. From the File menu, choose Import.

2. Go to the Palm folder, open the folder Holiday Files, and then open the folder Import Files.

3. Select the file to import, and click Import.

The holiday files are vCal files, so you can also go to the folder in which the holiday files are stored and drag the files into Date Book.

It seems to, um, work.

For what it's worth, I asked a friend of a friend who works at Palm why there were no holidays and he never mentioned this. Oh well.

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[hacksoncode]

Personally, I don't know of any holidays that follow the "first weekday after date X" format, at least in the US. President's day, for example, switched to the 3rd Monday in February a *long* time ago. Ok, Easter is an anomaly, but that's not Palm's fault :-).

But that aside, you most certainly *can* repeat an appointment on the 3rd Thursday of every November, though what it is that you're doing exactly one week before Thanksgiving every year is a mystery to me...

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[Moofie]

Why don't you just subscribe to an iCal holiday list, and sync that?

Re:An idea for the GENIUSES at Palm:

[LordEvan]

Yes, but this apparently only works if you run Palm Desktop on a Mac, us PC users are somewhat less fortunate. See the Palm Article ID: 37406

Let them eat cake

[Media_Scumbag]

Anyone that seriously shops for a mobile email platform comes to only one conclusion. And if they then choose a Treo, which costs much more, weighs much more, and performs comparitively poorly, they deserve what they get.

I also can't fathom anyone that looked at the patent/lawsuit issues as likely to stop RIM. The Fed is too big of a client, the product is too popular.

I was an early Handspring Visor adopter, I found much utility in Palm OS, but once I carried a Blackberry for a few months, all that was history.

Want mobile email cheap? - get a Sidekick. Want a lot of gadgety features, a lot of applications, and a keyboard? Get a Treo. Want a well-designed wireless email solution with GPS(7520) and a blossoming development climate - Get a Blackberry.

Given the battery life of mobile Windows devices - they aren't even in the running.

Re:Treo 600 a nightmare/Treo 650 perfect for my ne

[Lumpy]

I had 3 600's and 1 650 and all 4 of them had the buzzing in the earpiece and audio to the caller when the bettery would get down to 50% or less. also random lockups that take a reset to get it back are 100% unexcuseable on a phone. I can not have my phone lock up and not recieve calls because the hardware was not proven to be robust enough.

Palm's in general have been great. but they always failed horribly when they tried to marry them to a cellphone. I had the origional Qualcomm Palm unit and it sucked horribly in life and stability. Then I have tried off and on the treo's and all of them had a major flaw that makes them useless. The flip treos would break their hinges within days of getting it, the 600 and 650 have lockup issues and a shielding design flaw that palm refusesto fix (It's even in the 700's! I know of 2 people that have the 700w and they get the buzzing when the battery is lower than 1/3rd.

until they decide to quit making them cheap and put time into making a robust pda/phone that will last more than 12 months they are not practical.

There is a simple explanation

[Anonymous Coward]

There is so much more you can do with a Treo

Oversimplified conclusions

[moochfish]

In the quarter ended in late November, Palm sold 602,000 Treos, nearing the 645,000 new subscriber accounts that RIM signed on in the same period.

Internally, Palm executives say they believe that the Treo will outsell BlackBerrys by the end of this year.

Here's what's happened so far:

1. Company's reliability goes into question
2. Consumers look for alternatives

This is what Palm is hoping is #3:

3. Competitors overtake market

However, this is what is really happening:

3. Company's reliability no longer in question
4. Consumers stop looking for alternatives

Yeah. Maybe they would have outsold Blackberrys had the lawsuit kept on chugging or RIM lost. Unfortunately for Palm, that did not happen. Whatever edge they had during the lawsuit is now gone. How can you predict continued growth when the market changed in the past month with the conclusion of the lawsuit?

Re:Oversimplified conclusions

[overbom]

How can you predict continued growth when the market changed in the past month with the conclusion of the lawsuit?

Well, Palm diversified their smartphone market. Before January, they were just selling Palm OS PDAs that were phones. Now, they're also selling Windows Mobile 5 PDAs that are phones as well. So you can buy from Palm regardless of which OS you wanted to run. With the ACCESS Linux platform, I imagine you'll have an additional option in the next year or so. Also, you can't install any applications on a blackberry. There is always that...

Why the Treo rocks!

[commodoresloat]

Jack Bauer uses one in 24. The best feature it has is that you can program a smart card to blow up when you put it in an enemy intelligence agent's treo. Bones also uses one of these for mapping underground tunnels. Can your blackberry do that? I didn't think so.

Re:Why the Treo rocks!

[BewireNomali]

never seen 24. not sure who bones is.

Treo + Verizon = save your cash

[Josh teh Jenius]

Having pissed away a pretty penny on my own Treo a few months ago (Verizon), I can say that this device is silly for anyone who has a laptop and doesn't travel 90% of the time.

Yes, the Treo can do lots of neat thing, but I'm tired of looking like a clumsy retard everytime I need to answer a call.

Re:Treo + Verizon = save your cash

[Moofie]

If you look like a clumsy retard answering the phone, and you don't have an N-Gage tacophone, it's not the phone.

I agree -- FUD

[fishdan]

Listen, if you say a treo sucks, that's FUD. The Treo 650 obviously does not suck -- check out any of the gazillion websites with treo users -- there is a fanatical support base out there -- who feel as strongly about the Treo as you do about your blackberry. You think the Blackberry is better? Cool, talk about how it does X, Y and Z well. To say the Treo crashes all the time is obviously a personal experience.

I can tell you I love my Treo, and I also had both for a while, but I always had to have my Palm with me for the things it did, and though I agree, email is superior on the blackberry, it's not good enough that I want to lug around another device. With my 4g SD card it's a better mp3 player than an Ipod Nano (well, better for me because I think ITunes is the devil). I have a a kickass GPS on it, so I can fly from city to city, and be able to rent a car and get to wherever the heck I need to be. With pssh I can take care of things I need to on servers anywhere, and with the browser (which also is not the best in the wireless space, but good enough for me) I can read my bloglists while riding in on the train

Re:Treo 600 a nightmare/Treo 650 perfect for my ne

[emilymildew]

Man, that sucks. I have something like 15-20 acquaintences who have them and I haven't had the problem, my two roommates haven't, and none of our friends have. Sorry you had such bad luck!

GoodLink enterprise push email for the Treo

[ewireless]

For companies with Microsoft Exchange or IBM Domino as their mail system, Good Technology provides a product called GoodLink that offers full push email for the Treo and some would argue with an even better user experience than Blackberry. Good's product is #2 in the enterprise market behind Blackberry and is installed and being used in more than half of the Fortune 50. Good does not offer a consumer or individually purchasable product so they are not as well known as some of the consumer offerings, but they've clearly established themselves in the enterprise. Further a significant portion of Treo's business in the enterprise is running GoodLink and a significant portion of Good's overall business is on the Treo as it has been the most successful smartphone to date here in the U.S..

Palm vs. Blackberry

[SCHecklerX]

Screw 'em both. Symbian on Nokia seems impressive to me.

Re:Palm vs. Blackberry

[srussell]

Screw 'em both. Symbian on Nokia seems impressive to me.

Oh, no. No, no, no.

I'm with T-Mobile, and I've been very happy and haven't wanted to switch just to get a Treo. Palm's retarded pricing scheme -- raising the price of unlocked Treo's just to keep Cingular happy -- kept me from buying a Treo, so I purchased a SymbianOS Ericsson i900.

Worst. Mistake. Ever.

Symbian is, by far, the worst PDA OS that I've ever encountered. Admittedly, I've never tried WinCE (or its derivatives), but I have a hard time that any MS OS could be any worse than SymbianOS.

It runs out of memory. I mean, by running applications. You open too many, and suddenly you can't make phone calls without closing apps. That was the singlemost frustrating, retarded thing about SymbianOS. The UI was mostly worthless, although I admit that's a matter of preference. There is almost no public domain or free/shareware software for it (everything costs money). And it crashed a lot. Add to this the fact that it can't be synched with Linux, and that puts it squarely in the "avoid like a case of venereal disease" box, for me.

I could go on about how bad it is. I could talk about the almost unusable handwriting recognition, the awful application chooser (which can't sort applications alphabetically), or that it has to be constantly re-paired with bluetooth devices if you look at it funny. Suffice it to say that the day Palm dropped the price of the Treo by $100, I bought one. The design isn't as elegant as, say, the Tungsten was, and that wasn't as perfect as the Palm V was... but it is orders of magnitude better than SymbianOS.

To be fair, there is one thing that SymbianOS UIQ does better than PalmOS... telephone numbers in every application are recognized, and can be dialed by tapping on them. And the i900's jog dial is pretty handy. But I strongly recommend that you stay away from SymbianOS, because it sucks big, green, putrid donkey dicks, and I'm sorry that they ever got any of my money... it is that bad.

Oh, a little afterward... I gave the i900 to my wife to replace her 8 year old cell phone -- which, admittedly, she was happy with -- thinking that the i900 couldn't be worse than a decrepit, obsolete phone. Wrong! She likes that it is easier to text message, but so far, she's considering going back to her old phone. Of course, I've never been able to get her interested in PDAs, but SymbianOS makes a bad phone OS, and a really shitty PDA OS.

--- SER

The users...

[PhYrE2k2]

Yes but the users who thought that RIM may disappear were idiots anyway. We'll push them to Palm and AOL and be done with them.

-M

More Reasons...

[PhYrE2k2]

There's lots of reasons people are switching from Palm -> Blackberry besides push e-mail. Lets be realistic, if polling every 5 minutes isn't good enough or frequent enough for you, you should probably just sit at your desk all day.

The interface is much smarter than the palm. The wheel is key. It's one-handed, very acurate operation. The stylus (which previous posting on Slashdot said may be removed) is inacurate and the touch screen requires two hands. Awful when driving.

The applications are just plain smarter in many ways, but still have a way to go. The licensing on the Blackberry has yet to be cracked- so developers love it because the security for registering software is great.

Use a Blackberry and you'll find Palm just so darn frustrating to use.

-M

but will they FIX the Treos?

[themushroom]

The increased popularity of Treos will be all for naught if they are still flakier than pie crust. Imagine all these new excited business customers calling their cellular carriers twice a week about how their non-Blackberries keep locking up, dropping calls, and so forth. They'll wish they could get out of their contracts/layouts and switch to Blackberries. (Not claiming BB's are all the sh!t, but that the Palms... are sh!t. Buy your local PDA-phone support person a beer, he or she needs one.)

Blackberry is NOT easier to use than Treo

[ewireless]

I beg to differ that lots of people are switching from Palm to Blackberry. In fact, Palm Treo sales are growing much much faster than Blackberry sales and Palm predicts they will surpass Blackberry by the end of this year in incremental new sales. The Treo with high quality software is arguably easier and better than the Blackberry, even for one-handed operation. The Treo has a 5-way control (not a joystick) in the center of the device and with good software can be easier to use one-handed than the Blackberry. The Blackberry has scroll up, scroll down, click and back. That's it for one-handed use on the Blackberry. If you want to go left or right, you have to hold down a shift key while you scroll the wheel (hardly a one-handed operation). The Treo, on the other hand, has left, right, up, down and click and four other buttons all within one handed reach giving you full one-handed navigation. While nobody should be recommending extended use of a smartphone while driving, I'll happily pit a Treo with good software against a Blackberry with its software for one-handed use. At best, they'll be even. At worst, the Treo will be able to perform a number of additional one-handed operations that the Blackberry will require the second hand for. For more advanced uses, try opening a browser page on a Blackberry and navigate among the links on the page. A browser page, even on a smartphone screen is fundamentally a two-dimensional object. Intuitive navigation requires left/right and up/down movement. Yet, the blackberry only has up/down controls built-in. The Treo, on the other hand, has full left/right and up/down controls built-in for one-handed use. And further, if you really want the most intuitive (though not one-handed use), you can just pull out the stylus and tap on the link you want in your page. That's the way browser pages were meant to be used. Email and browser are just two applications. The Treo's model is designed to support full two-dimensional navigation, the Blackberry is not. As other applications become popular (other business applications or entertainment), the Treo is just that much more flexible and adaptable to the needs of those applications. The Blackberry can do one thing pretty well, but we're starting to see the cracks in it's single purpose design. Remember Wang? The best word processor in the world. Dedicated to doing great word processing. But it was soon surpassed by the more flexible, general purpose and more open PC platform and its range of word processing choices and other applications. Will the same thing happen to the Blackberry? You can draw you own conclusions, but the parallels are surprising.

Palm should hire Tarentino

[cyman777]

One thing Palm does not understand (anymore) is KILLER. As in killer application. Right now, in the corporate (and more and more in the private) world the killer app is simple/y mobile e-mail. Unfortunately (from my personal point of view) scheduling also must be compatible with Microsoft Outlook. Nothing more nothing less. If they do not do it right now with mobile e-mail they will be history. It is this simple. I used to love Palm(s). Since I got my BB and my Palm causes Outlook to hang when I sync I love my BB more and more even though the user interface sucks big time compared to my Treo 650. OK and finally get some Voip and WLAN into your smartphone for us /. smart asses!

Drop both on concrete.

[Wolfier]

From 4 feet in the air, you'll see why Treo has no hope of catching up.