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Code for Unbreakable Quantum Encryption

An anonymous reader writes "ITO is running a story on NIST's latest quantum encryption key generation. From the article: 'Raw code for "unbreakable" quantum encryption has been generated at record speed over optical fiber at NIST. The work is a step toward using conventional high-speed networks such as broadband Internet and local-area networks to transmit ultra-secure video for applications such as surveillance.'"

210 comments

  1. Great, no more supervision by JPribe · · Score: 4, Funny
    Compressed video has been encrypted, transmitted and decrypted at a rate of 30 frames per second, sufficient for smooth streaming images, in Web-quality resolution, 320 by 240 pixels per frame.
    Neat, now those cameras around the country can't get watched by anyone with a net connection anymore. What will I do with my saturday nights?
    --

    Why go fast when you can go anywhere? O|||||||O
    1. Re:Great, no more supervision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      try to get laid?

    2. Re:Great, no more supervision by JPribe · · Score: 2, Funny

      Been there, done that, got the bugs to prove it ;)

      --

      Why go fast when you can go anywhere? O|||||||O
    3. Re:Great, no more supervision by sqrt(2) · · Score: 1

      It's over rated.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
  2. Hold on just a sec... by StevenHenderson · · Score: 5, Funny
    'Raw code for "unbreakable" quantum encryption has been generated...

    Let's see what DVD Jon has to say about this first...

    1. Re:Hold on just a sec... by JPribe · · Score: 0

      Maybe someone will toss $25 million in venture capital his way....

      --

      Why go fast when you can go anywhere? O|||||||O
    2. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you think it is just a question of time that someone will crack it, you have no idea about quantum mechanics. The basic rule is that any measurement of some observable will change it's state, thus garanteeing that any interception of the key is detected. You can tell whether the transmission was 100% secure. There is no way around it.

    3. Re:Hold on just a sec... by MichaeLuke · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Seriously, parent poster is right. I'm not a programmer, but I have doubts about "unbreakable" encryption. If quantum computing is so great at encrypting data, wouldn't it also be great at cracking it?

    4. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, if you use one time pads, they are unbreakable (if they are generated using a truly random feed). The problem is getting the to the destination securely. If you use quantum encryption to transmit the one time pads, you can detect wether one has been intercepted or not. If it has, discard it, if it hasn't keep it and use it.

      Google for one time encryption pads to get a better idea of how they work.

    5. Re:Hold on just a sec... by shawn(at)fsu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Isn't this then 2 seperate issues? One is intercepting the signal the other is decrypting it. Back in WWII with Enimga intercepting the message was easy decrypting it was not. In the case pof Ultra they had decrypted it but they didn't want to let the Germans know they could. So like I asked are there two seperate issues at play here?

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    6. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      If you use quantum encryption to transmit the one time pads, you can detect wether one has been intercepted or not. If it has, discard it, ...

      It isn't just that you can detect it. It's that the very act of intercepting it corrupts it for the intended receiver. If the interceptor has it, the intneded receiver has noise, not the intended message.

      The other half of quantum encryption systems is that you can send info in such a way that you have to have ANOTHER key stream (using some ordinary cryptosystem) to even recieve it. Get a bit wrong in your reception process keying and the corresponding bit of what you're trying to intercept turns into a coin flip. The information is noise for both the intended recipient AND the intercepter.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    7. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Grotus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, it is two separate issues, but they work together.

      You use the quantum technique to transmit the key and are sure no one intercepted it. You then use that key which no one else knows as a one time pad to encrypt your data. One time pads are mathematically proven to be unbreakable.

      --
      "From my cold, dead hands you damn, dirty apes!" - CH
    8. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is even more cool is if Bob transmits pure random noise to Alice and you tell, Fred (who is actually a Russian/Iranian spy) how to intercept it, he will intercept the complete works of William Shakespeare and the entire text of Wikipedia!
      Quantum mechanics is fun.
      Entropy makes me tired.

    9. Re:Hold on just a sec... by shawn(at)fsu · · Score: 1

      Thank you.

      --
      500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
    10. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Edzor · · Score: 1

      just like the unsinkable ship.

    11. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      So... I can completely denial-of-service communication just be intercepting key transmissions?

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    12. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Theatetus · · Score: 1
      It isn't just that you can detect it. It's that the very act of intercepting it corrupts it for the intended receiver. If the interceptor has it, the intneded receiver has noise, not the intended message.

      Do we know there is no possible MITM compromise for this though? (Honest question; I stopped being current with crypto in about 1989.) If there's not, my naive assumption would be that we now have a great channel for key exchange, and this would solve a lot of the key exchange and management problems in non-quantum ciphersystems.

      --
      All's true that is mistrusted
    13. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, last I read (and things may have changed since then), you needed a direct fiber optic link to wherever you wanted to send the bits to.

    14. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      Brief addendum:

      If you use one-time pads, and you use them only one time, then they are unbreakable. One-time pads that were used more than once caused the NSA to be able to decrypt a number of Soviet messages at critical times during the Cold War.

      Not arguing with you -- just being pedantic on a point that some people miss.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    15. Re:Hold on just a sec... by zcsteele · · Score: 1
      In Soviet America, message intercept YOU!!

      (damn cell phones...)

      --
      ...brand new, all over again.
    16. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh. That means the soviets weren't even using one-time pads. They were using 20-time pads, which are much easier to crack. ^_^

    17. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      you needed a direct fiber optic link to wherever you wanted to send the bits to.

      You can also switch with an optic switch (which forwards the actual photons using moving mirrors, switch index-of-refraction light piping, or the like). You can't let the signal go to a box that converts it to electronic signals, routes the packets, and retconverts them to photons.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    18. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Short of invalidating quantum mechanics you can't have a MITM UNLESS he intercepts and rewrites ALL your communications - including the initial setup of your link.

      The MITM must have inserted himself in ALL your communications, so he can fool you and your partner by looking like you to your partner, your partner to you. Side-channel a polarization schedule that he can't rewrite and you detect him.

      In particular, without having the key schedule in advance he can't cut the fiber and retransmit while making a copy to save in the hope that he can work out your key schedule later. He needs the key bits when he receives each photon to avoid having a 50% chance of randomizing each on reception and thus not being able to resend its information.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    19. Re:Hold on just a sec... by moro_666 · · Score: 1

      so this is like sex, except we could have it ?

      unless it's really really dark, you usually spot the interceptor too ...

      anyways, as far as i have cared to read, this thing just depends on the fact that there is a direct physical link between the machines ... if you can't guard your optical cable, what exactly makes you think you can guard your servers themselves ?

      (afaihctr - what an acronym !!!)

        there are quite many computer crimes today done with "physical access" to the machine instead of the nasty network hacking. does the quantiume key encryption protect from it ?

      --

      I'd tell you the chances of this story being a dupe, but you wouldn't like it.
    20. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd argue that a one-time pad that is used more than once ceases to be a one-time pad ;-)

    21. Re:Hold on just a sec... by somersault · · Score: 2, Insightful

      but it's quantum, so you can't really be sure it's secure until it's already been sent.. or something

      But seriously, what would stop someone intercepting the key, then resending it? If the original transmitter can send the key, and the receiver can receive it, why can't a repeater-station type device in the middle read the key, then send out a new duplicate?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    22. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think it is just a question of time that someone will crack it, you have no idea about quantum mechanics.

      Right, because encryption methods are never cracked due to implementation problems. If an encryption method is based on secure technology, it is guaranteed to be safe from being cracked. Wait. No. That's bullshit, and you are talking out of your ass.

    23. Re:Hold on just a sec... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      You use the quantum technique to transmit the key and are sure no one intercepted it.

      Sure they can. You can be sure that no one intercepted it from the quantum channel, but that still leaves holes. I could be standing right behind you, all sneaky-like, and write the key and messages down as you view them. Or I could be standing right behind the sender, watching him write the key and messages with his non-quantum keyboard.

      Using this fancy quantum technique makes capturing the key harder, but in no way makes it impossible. At some point the key or message must leave the quantum world to enter your brains, and at that point it can and will be captured. Or maybe the other guy has been captured and you are really sending all your secrets to your enemy. Or maybe the scientists are all part of a giant conspiracy - I don't understand and cannot test quantum physics, do you ? And if you can and do, are you absolutely certain that the real laws of quantum physics are actually as told - maybe the publically announced laws are just cleverly constructed so that tests seem to prove them, but there's just onne important difference - a loophole that lets the government / illuminati / smurfs intercept the messages without you knowing it ?

      There is no unbreakable crypto. None. Nor is there any absolutely tamper-proof way of getting messages from one point to the next, nor is there any absolutely certain way of knowing if a message has been intercepted.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    24. Re:Hold on just a sec... by Xanthir · · Score: 1

      Note - none of the methods you cited are 'breaking' the crypto. They are all bypassing it. Anything can by bypassed, but QC is truly unbreakable (assuming a truly random bit generator, no unforeseen quantum loopholes, blah blah blah...).

  3. Buzzwords and Challenges. by lordsid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    People really need to quit referring to anything as "unbreakable" or 100% secure. It's never going to happen. Just as making anything idiot proof, they will always build a better idiot. Saying it's unbreakable is just going to challenge someone to do it.

    --
    IMAGE VERIFICATION IS EVIL!
    1. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by duranaki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well yeah.. that's why they used those "air quotes".

    2. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing idiot proof is death.

    3. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by Koiu+Lpoi · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely correct. As always, the idea is to make it as bloody hard as possible. If it takes fouteen million years to brute force, then the industry calls it "unbreakable", as it is, unbreakable.

      This is, of course, saying nothing for that marvel called "social engineering"...

    4. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by thePig · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry, but this *is* unbreakable.
      This is no logic which can be broken by brute force of amazing insight.
      This is the basic law of physics at work i.e. the quantum state of a pair have information which stays the same even if they are far apart. (I think they are using this one here).
      One changes, the other knows. So somebody peeks to it, they guy knows it has been peeked into.

      So, looks like this is it.

      --
      rajmohan_h@yahoo.com
    5. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by vertinox · · Score: 3, Informative

      People really need to quit referring to anything as "unbreakable" or 100% secure.

      Well a one time pad is considered unbreakable if employed correctly.

      However, if you reuse the same pad over again and over again it tends to be easier to break. Maybe that is why they call it a one time pad though...

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    6. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1
      That doesn't mean much. As a practical matter, AES is also currently just as unbreakable as quantum encryption. However, plenty of AES-based security solutions are insecure in the real world because of protocol errors, configuration flaws, OS flaws on the host system, etc. Any quantum-based system will also have these external factors to deal with, and many of them will have exploitable holes.

      IOW, in the real world, quantum encryption systems will probably be no more secure than today's conventional systems.

    7. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by JPribe · · Score: 0

      At this rate though physical access to the original, unencrypted data is going to be the easiest route....I can see a real-life "Sneakers" type break in if I close my eyes just a little bit...this along the lines of the "weakest link" theory already presented. Fact is, under the right circumstances, the data is no less than a USB drive away.

      --

      Why go fast when you can go anywhere? O|||||||O
    8. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Saying it's unbreakable is just going to challenge someone to do it.

      Great! Where's the problem?
    9. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which is why they used code books with sheets of "OTP" (random noise) to be used once and destroyed, the weakness is the delivery system for the code book

    10. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I beg to differ. When it comes to shopping for shoes, my wife's resolve is 100% unbreakable.

    11. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by caluml · · Score: 1
      People really need to quit referring

      People need to stop telling people what to do/think/say

    12. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by cp.tar · · Score: 1

      As a matter of fact, several religions throughout history are/were based on the assumption that death is not idiot-proof.

      But I digress...

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
    13. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by Swanktastic · · Score: 1

      That was a right-pretty speech, sir. But I ask you, what is a contract?

      Webster's defines it as "an agreement under the law which is unbreakable."

      Which is unbreakable!

      Excuse me, I must use the restroom.

    14. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by pclminion · · Score: 1
      People really need to quit referring to anything as "unbreakable" or 100% secure. It's never going to happen. Just as making anything idiot proof, they will always build a better idiot. Saying it's unbreakable is just going to challenge someone to do it.

      Nope. A one time pad generated from a truly random source, transmitted over a secure quantum encryption channel, is absolutely unbreakable. There are the usual human weak spots, like a moron leaving the pad lying around after the fact, but from a physical and mathematical standpoint the system is PERFECT.

      You might as well challenge the truth of the Pythagorean theorem.

    15. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      You might as well challenge the truth of the Pythagorean theorem.

      It doesn't hold in non-Euclidean geometry.

    16. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by perspicaciously · · Score: 1
      You might as well challenge the truth of the Pythagorean theorem.

      It doesn't hold in non-Euclidean geometry.

      Yes--the Pythagorean theorem has to be modified to hold true in non-Euclidean universes. Likewise, this form of encryption might not be unbreakable if our fundamental understanding of quantum mechanics is incorrect. It might be, but counting on an attacker understanding a unifying theorem that supersedes quantum mechanics is asking a bit much. I think this can be called "unbreakable" without dishonesty.
    17. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by Firehed · · Score: 1
      But surely if you brute-force it with a quantum computer, it takes a single clock cycle (if they indeed work in clock cycles, I'm not that informed on the subject). I just figure that once we're to the stage of quantum encryption, we're at or very close to quantum computing. While you can't feasably crack it with a traditional computer and you can't intercept the key without rendering it useless, my understanding is that quantum computing would render traditional security obsolete overnight because you could brute-force through in seconds if even that long. Of course I could be totally off-base here. Do consider that you could get lucky after an hour on a brute-force attack even if it would have hypothetically taken fourteen million years. Likewise, I had to brute-force my bike lock once, and while it took a while, I didn't have to go through every single code in order to find the working one.

      As it is, I thought current high(est)-level encryption would take some insane amount of time that could well be measured in geologic time and certainly well beyond current human lifespan if you tried a brute-force attack. The problem is, of course, those tricky hackers getting their hands on the key (or even moreso the stupid people that lose a USB key or laptop full of sensitive data).

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    18. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by fatphil · · Score: 1

      From a laws-of-physics and mathematical standpoint it's perfect.
      However, we're neither wave equations nor formulae - we're humans in the real world, using high power electronic devices that broadcast their state and their changes of state to their environs. Nothing about OPTs and QKE helps preserve the secrecy of the data once it's been decrypted and, say, stuck on a hard disk, or displayed as text on screen.

      FatPhil

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    19. Re:Buzzwords and Challenges. by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      If you modify the Pythagorean theorem, then it's no longer the same theorem. Also, while the encryption itself may be unbreakable, it doesn't mean that something else can't be broken.

  4. Damn more DRM by run4ever79 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'd like to think that this would be used for something useful like secure financial transactions or transmission of other personal data, but it is disc ouraging to see that TFA focuses on securing video transmissions.

    --
    Linux : Hotrod :: Windows : Yugo
  5. I can't pretend to remotely understand, but... by Odiumjunkie · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    am I correct in ascertaining that the key is generated using some of the quantum properties of very small particles?

    In that case, how is the key shared with the end terminal? In what way is the key generation reproducible at the remote computer to decrypt the signal?

    1. Re:I can't pretend to remotely understand, but... by Musteval · · Score: 0

      They send the key across, using the last key. Duh.

      --
      Note to mods: I'm probably being sarcastic.
    2. Re:I can't pretend to remotely understand, but... by hoggoth · · Score: 2, Funny

      > how is the key shared with the end terminal?

      Come on you Einsteinian caveman! Clearly the sending terminal is quantumly entangled with the receiving terminal, thus providing the key via spooky-action-at-a-distance(tm).

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    3. Re:I can't pretend to remotely understand, but... by Odiumjunkie · · Score: 1

      "They send the key across, using the last key. Duh."

      Sorry, I'm sure it's really obvious, but I still don't see how this works.

      If you're talking about sending an encrypted key, surely there must be some kind of shared, reproducable key in order for the original encrypted key to be decrypted? How is that shared key reproduced? Isn't that incompatible with the "quantum" element?

    4. Re:I can't pretend to remotely understand, but... by Kenja · · Score: 2, Informative
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_cryptography

      Nice bit of text going over the key exchange. Dosn't even involve hurting cats.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    5. Re:I can't pretend to remotely understand, but... by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      The first key (which is HUGE) is shared by a quantum link (a fiber optic cable essentially using quantum entanglement). Then you can remove this link and transmit over the internet with a key changing algorithm.

    6. Re:I can't pretend to remotely understand, but... by Zordak · · Score: 1
      Dosn't even involve hurting cats.
      Or not hurting cats.
      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
  6. Roti by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Funny
    When quantum cryptography is outlawed, both outlaws and law-abiding citizens will simultaneously have and lack quantum cryptography!

    This message encrypted with rotsqrt(-1).

    1. Re:Roti by dascandy · · Score: 1

      Did the people modding you funny lose real or imaginary mod points?

    2. Re:Roti by Zordak · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter. Karma is all imaginary anyway.

      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    3. Re:Roti by gstoddart · · Score: 1
      When quantum cryptography is outlawed, both outlaws and law-abiding citizens will simultaneously have and lack quantum cryptography!

      Is the outlawing and not outlawing the trigger for that? Is it like if the cat isn't in the box, we can tell if it's dead or alive so there are no wave functions to worry about?

      Since it's not yet outlawed, do we neither have nor not have it -- or do we definitely not have or not lack it? Or is the condition of us having and lacking it even depend on the outlawing?

      It's all so very complicated. I get confused sometimes. :-P
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:Roti by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      In one universe, we have, in one universe, we lack. Everett's many-world theory is much less gibberishlike than the Copenhagen model.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    5. Re:Roti by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rot sqrt(-1)? Isn't that just a complex way of saying rot 5?
      (spoiler omitted for brewity)

  7. Unbreakable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, this protects you from *eavesdropping* "the rules of quantum mechanics ensure that anyone intercepting the key is detected", but not from a *man-in-the-middle attack*, where E is cutting every wire between A and B, independently negotiating keys with A and B, and translating back and forth between the two encryptions.

    1. Re:Unbreakable? by infinityxi · · Score: 1

      Courtesy of Wikipedia on the subject:

      In Quantum Cryptography, traditional man-in-the-middle attacks are impossible due to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. If Mallory attempts to intercept the stream of photons, he will inevitably alter them if he uses an incorrect detector. He cannot re-emit the photons to Bob correctly, which will introduce unacceptable levels of error into the communication.

      If Alice and Bob are using an entangled photon system, then it is virtually impossible to hijack these, because creating three entangled photons would decrease the strength of each photon to such a degree that it would be easily detected. Mallory cannot use a man-in-the-middle attack, since he would have to measure an entangled photon and disrupt the other photon, then he would have to re-emit both photons. This is impossible to do, by the laws of quantum physics.


      Unless the law of quantum physics is wrong and the whole system breaks down eitherway.

      --
      Turn based strategy game that runs over XMPP. Phalanx
    2. Re:Unbreakable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wasn't talking about a man-in-the-middle attack on individual photons so that Alice and Bob would end up with the same key, but about a higher-level attack where Alice and Bob end up with different keys but do not know about it because the attacker is translating between the two systems.

  8. Note "unbreakable" is in quotes in the article by Mariner28 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    What makes quantum encryption "unbreakable" is that any attempt tamper with it can be detected. Of course, it doesn't prevent a good old DDos attack!

    My question, however, is this: Once hackers obtain quantum computers themselves to use for cracking quantum codes, will they actually have to run them? After all, it was just proven that a quantum program doesn't even have to run to come up with an answer. That's all we need - a new generation of lazy quantum hackers! What's this world coming to? What happened to good old-fashioned dishonest work?

    --
    "A little misunderstanding? Galileo and the Pope had a little misunderstanding."
    1. Re:Note "unbreakable" is in quotes in the article by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      After all, it was just proven that a quantum program doesn't even have to run to come up with an answer.

      BTW this is bullshit. What they discovered is that if they set up a computation system that is driven by the quantum physics of a photon, they can block that photon before it enters into the computation, and the computation runs anyways. This is due to the quatum elements of the photon entering the system despite the physical photon being blocked. So it still runs, just its not obvious how.. Anyone who has any knowledge of such things as the double slit experiment knows this to be obviously in sync with current expectations.

    2. Re:Note "unbreakable" is in quotes in the article by MaceyHW · · Score: 5, Informative

      All together now: "this has nothing to do with quantum computing".

      This system exploits quantum mechanics to detect if someone is interecepting and retransmitting the signal. That's why it's called Quantum KEY Distribution. There's nothing "quantum" about the encryption itself. It is also of limited use since it requires an unbroken fiber-optic connection between the two devices.

    3. Re:Note "unbreakable" is in quotes in the article by fatphil · · Score: 1

      I find nothing explains such complicated issues better than just simply providing a program with its source code that can be examined and tinkered with:

      <URL:http://fatphil.org/crypto/QKE.html>

      Heheheh ;-)

      FatPhil

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  9. quantum keys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure I want to live in the world we're building for ourselves.

    RU sure all this stuff makes it better? I mean _really sure_? Or are you just telling yourself it'll all be OK, somehow, some way, some day.

  10. You all laughed when... by Yamaha2000usyahoo.co · · Score: 1, Funny

    I filed a patent for my tin foil suit back in 1986.

    --
    Anger has its uses. Here, let me show you.
    1. Re:You all laughed when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which expires this year. Mwa ha ha...

  11. Need to learn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I need to go back to college and take some physics classes. It seems quantum physics is becoming a part of day to day life, and I really have nothing but the most basic laymans understanding to go on.

    If someone could please explain to me how the quantum code can be transmitted over wires, myself and other normal people would greatly appreciate it. They say that they generate the quantum code using photons, but, how can the photons be sent with the message? Also, wouldn't checking the code to see if it had been tampered with actually change the code?

    I JUST DONT GET IT.

  12. Change to "near" Unbreakable. by Kenja · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If it can be decrypted its not unbreakable. Unbreakable encryption is easy, just not that usefull if you ever want access to what you encrytped.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    1. Re:Change to "near" Unbreakable. by PatrickThomson · · Score: 1

      Like Fuck.

      I'm sorry, but you're actually literally wrong.

      Quantum Encryption Is Unbreakable According To All Known Laws Of Quantum Physics Which Have Been Proven Accurate To One Part In Ten Billion And Have Not Been Disproven For Over A Hundred Years.

      Ok?

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    2. Re:Change to "near" Unbreakable. by frankie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      QC is unbreakable in the mathematical sense. It's a souped-up OTP, which cannot be broken by an outside party, period. Note the word "outside". You can't install a sniffer on the wire, copy the message and decrypt it later. Aside from effectively infinite key length, with QC your intrusion will be detected in real time.

      Insider attacks (mole, rootkit, spy camera, etc) which occur AFTER reception and decryption do not count, because the encryption method has nothing to do with that.

    3. Re:Change to "near" Unbreakable. by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      Ok...then decode this: "XFARBUN"

      --
      The cake is a pie
    4. Re:Change to "near" Unbreakable. by eddeye · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Insider attacks (mole, rootkit, spy camera, etc) which occur AFTER reception and decryption do not count, because the encryption method has nothing to do with that.

      Which is exactly why this is a solution looking for a problem. No one ever breaks modern crypto when it's used correctly. Attacking the periphery of the system is orders of magnitude easier. Your resources are much better spent guarding against insider attacks than buying the next useless whiz-bang crypto device.

      --
      Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.
    5. Re:Change to "near" Unbreakable. by MaceyHW · · Score: 2, Insightful
      QC is unbreakable in the mathematical sense. It's a souped-up OTP, which cannot be broken by an outside party, period.

      It's not "souped-up OTP" it's just regular old OTP with a wrapper that prevents a man-in-the-middle attack. As stated in TFA:
      The NIST quantum key distribution (QKD) system uses single photons, the smallest particles of light, in different orientations to produce a continuous binary code, or "key," for encrypting information.
      This is just a system for transmitting an arbitrary-length string of bits with absolute integrity. This is both non-revolutionary and non-trivial.
    6. Re:Change to "near" Unbreakable. by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      I thought you could break it by having a mass of entangled particals so that you could attack the stream in several ways at once but still leave it intact.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    7. Re:Change to "near" Unbreakable. by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Alas it's not as easy as that.

      It is _impossible_ to distinguish an evesdropper causing a -X dB perturbation on the transmitted signal from line noise that causes a -X dB perturbation on it.

      It's stormy - you're getting a lower SNR on your fibre line today - are you sure that a small fraction of your bits are not being evesdropped.

      Of course, that's why you use privacy amplification techniques to make small leaks of the signal to an adversary give no useful information about the real payload.

      FatPhil

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    8. Re:Change to "near" Unbreakable. by zopf · · Score: 1

      I'm confused. If the technology exists to produce streams of photons with predictable characteristics at the source and to observe those predictable characteristics with high accuracy at the detector, how is this system immune to man-in-the-middle attacks?

      For example, if I knew the system would be off for an hour, why couldn't I splice in my own detector/emitter/recorder setup to simply receive, record, and then reproduce each photon that arrived, aside from technological difficulty?

      --
      Did you see the pool? They flipped the bitch!
    9. Re:Change to "near" Unbreakable. by PatrickThomson · · Score: 1

      Only for entanglement. Polarisation is nicer, iirc, in that you know for sure which bits could not have been detected.

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
  13. Principle of quantum cryptography is flawed by dascandy · · Score: 1

    The current state of cryptography is that people can have either secure communication but possibility for man-in-the-middle attacks or secure communication with a requirement for a third party or prior knowledge (previously exchanged key etc). All systems must comply with this basic law, since if you can't ascertain the identity of the other party without relying solely on its information, you need somebody else to tell you or some memory of that entity. If you thus rely solely on the other entity to declare itself as anything, you cannot make for a secure cryptographic channel.

    The idea of quantum cryptography is that you have some form of signal sent both ways that only the receivers can receive, since it can't be tapped in the middle due to detected signal loss and single-atomic-unit transmissions being measured. It's pointless, because anything the actual receiver can do, I can do too, and anything the actual receiver can't do I can't do either. Without prior knowledge, it's not anyhow more secure than current systems. With prior knowledge, it might be ever so slightly more secure, yet not much (on the order of 10^-40 % less chance of decryption).

    Quantum cryptography is near pointless.

    1. Re:Principle of quantum cryptography is flawed by vertinox · · Score: 4, Informative

      The idea of quantum cryptography is that you have some form of signal sent both ways that only the receivers can receive, since it can't be tapped in the middle due to detected signal loss and single-atomic-unit transmissions being measured. It's pointless, because anything the actual receiver can do, I can do too, and anything the actual receiver can't do I can't do either.

      Eeeehh... Quantum entaglment encryption isn't that simple.

      Here is a site by Colossalstorage that explains one of the patents involved in it:

      http://colossalstorage.net/entangled.htm

      To give a layman's translation... You take two photons and entagle them and then send them down two fiber optic line of the same length (say 4km) and then a device on each end determines which direction the spin is.

      Since the spin is the same for the particles regardless of how far apart they are (no information being transfered faster than the speed of light) they have a reference of what the other party is seeing.

      Now of course particle spin is random, but the key factor is knowing what the other party is seeing.

      Now, you can use the spin as a one time pad and basically encrypt everything based off this... Or rather changes are you'll need another method of communication such as having the actual encrypted data on another fiber line and knowing the spin of the photon gives you the key to unencrypt it.

      Now if someone spliced the fiber line, you instantly know it has been comprised because data no longer unencrypts because the particle spin changed on observation and chances are unless the eves dropper has the ability to observe particle spin he might not get much useful data either.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    2. Re:Principle of quantum cryptography is flawed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A brilliant demonstration of the author's ignorance.

    3. Re:Principle of quantum cryptography is flawed by ortholattice · · Score: 1
      Beware, the method shown at Colossalstorage is essentially crank science. It would provide instantaneous communication (faster than the speed of light); although there is a sense in which quantum correlations are "connected" instantaneously, it has been mathematically proven that you cannot use them to transmit information. The fact that these patents were even issued essentially demonstrates the incompetence of the patent office and nothing else. Since they won't allow patents of perpetual motion machines, I'm surprised they let this one get through. (Or maybe I'm not surprised.)

      If you look at the "published papers" on the Colossalstorage site, all of them are essentially press releases or unreferreed presentations at conferences, etc. I don't see one single peer-reviewed publication in a respectable scientific journal.

      A far better reference to provide to the grandparent (who is also mistaken, in a different way) is simply the wikipedia entry.

    4. Re:Principle of quantum cryptography is flawed by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      To give a layman's translation... You take two photons and entagle them and then send them down two fiber optic line of the same length (say 4km) and then a device on each end determines which direction the spin is.

      What tolerance is there for the diffence between the two lengths? What tolerance for the difference in material between the two cables (the photons have different speeds in different materials)?

    5. Re:Principle of quantum cryptography is flawed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So all the attacker would need to do is chop the line close to the receiver and act like the real receiver. How would the sender know the message is going to the wrong receiver?

      After getting the information, the attacker can act like the sender and pass on the message with a newly generated keyset - the real receiver will not be able to tell that he's not communicating with the real sender anymore.

      How does quantum encryption help?

    6. Re:Principle of quantum cryptography is flawed by dascandy · · Score: 1

      Nice to know, but I knew that.

      Now, what if I act as the receiver, breaking the line at his end and routing it solely to me? Using those particle spins to decrypt the data, read it, making a new line with brand new particle spins to the actual receiver, sending data with brand new particle spin one-time pad along the second line.

      Say, following the definition of "man-in-the-middle".

    7. Re:Principle of quantum cryptography is flawed by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1
      Exactly. You'd break the fiber optic, splice in as much fiber as necessary to make it 4KM again, then send your new message through 4KM - (the rest) so that you message goes through exactly 4KM to get to the end point.

      This won't work, because the system will first be tested by generating a key, transmitting that key over regular channels and comparing it with the source. Since you can't generate entangled photons of a particular polarization, just generate and measure, there's no way for you to fool the checks. Also you can't decrypt the data, since it won't be sent until both endpoints have verified that a good key has been sent.

      Quantum key generation works like this:
      1. Generate randon entangled photon pairs.
      2. Let the photons fly.
      3. Measure the photons. Since they are entagled, what you get on one side, is what you get on the other side. There's some way to tell if you recieve a non-entagled photon, either through natural decay, or interception
      4. Collect the bits from several non-intercepted photons and use them as a key for a OTP
      5. Transmit your OTP encryted text.
      6. Decode the text.


      An group of intercepted and retranmitted photons won't decode the eText, so that's another check that everything is ok. Usually the paranoid send several unimportant messages through their encryption system before and after sending a sensitive message. This acts as a check on the system without potentially compromising sensitive information. You also want to send exactly the same message length at the same time every day, so that you attacker can't use increased traffic to deduce something important is going down.
      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    8. Re:Principle of quantum cryptography is flawed by dascandy · · Score: 1

      > because the system will first be tested by generating a key, transmitting that key over regular channels and comparing it with the source ... that's just testing whether the installation works properly

      > Since you can't generate entangled photons of a particular polarization, just generate and measure, there's no way for you to fool the checks

      I'm not trying to fool the checks. I'm trying to find the use of quantum encryption.

      Normal encryption involves exchanging a key in some way, by exchanging information and using previously-acquired information to create a key and to be sure the other party is who they say they are. Multiple methods exist, but they all boil down to either trusting something both share (TTP) or sharing a fixed amount of information "securely" by unknown methods.

      Quantum encryption serves only as a purpose to make the link itself, and not the endpoints integrity, secure. You could do that by putting a random bit generator in the middle sending the same OTP to both ends, although quantum entanglement prevents people from listening in on the key. They don't prevent plain hijacking the key though.

      You should read up on what Man-In-The-Middle actually stands for. I don't think you realise why quantum encryption won't help against it.

    9. Re:Principle of quantum cryptography is flawed by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      although quantum entanglement prevents people from listening in on the key. They don't prevent plain hijacking the key though.

      The way OTP is used in practice allows keys to be hijacked because you don't send the message until you have verified that the keys have been properly received.

      Normally OTP keys are send in a diplomatic pouch handcuffed to the wrist of a trusted courier who does not have a key to the briefcase it's in. If your courier is intercepted, your opponent doesn't get anything, since it's just a random key, and you invalidate that one and send another. Only after your personel on the other side verify that they have recieved the pads untampered with, do you sent the encrypted message.

      OTP used in this way doesn't allow a man-in-the-middle attack unless the bad guys turn your courier, and manage to get the keys without messing up the tamper resistent package. Since the courier has no knowlegde of what's his breifcase, your opponents won't be able to prepare new seals ahead of time. If the courier goes missing for long enough to reproduce them, you just discard those keys and send new ones.

      Quantum key generation just lets you generate boat loads of keys and distribute them in a tamper-evident manner. Someone can still get your keys, but you'll know about it, and then you discard and retransmit. Since you haven't send the etext, you're still secure.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
  14. Physics 101 by Billosaur · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The NIST quantum key distribution (QKD) system uses single photons, the smallest particles of light...

    Ok, maybe I missed something back when I took QM in college, but photons are the only particle of light, aren't they? They are not the only electromagentic particle, but are the only constituents of the light we see. Or has the universe become even stranger and no one told me?

    --
    GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    1. Re:Physics 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two photons would not be the smallest particle of light, for the dictionary definition of particle ("A very small piece or part").

    2. Re:Physics 101 by StoneTempest · · Score: 1

      You're right that they're the only constituents of the light we see, but if supersymmetry turns out to exist, then it predicts the existence of the "photino" which may or may not be related to the electromagnetic force in a similar way as the photon. Also, since it's quite massive it's a possible candidate for dark matter, but that's a bit off-topic.

      A few quick googles and searches on Wikipedia turn up these links:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photino
      http://www.answers.com/topic/gaugino

      They're a bit vague, but will satisfy a passing question.

    3. Re:Physics 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure they're referring to using the single photon emitters they created a few years back. It was a major breakthrough at the time, and by 'smallest part' they mean single photons rather then pulses of multiple photons.

  15. Quantum Snake Oil by hweimer · · Score: 1

    Sorry, but this *is* unbreakable.

    No, it is not. A cryptosystem is only as strong as its weakest link. In Quantum Cryptography the weakest link is not the actual encryption but the authentication of both parties. If Eve pretends to be Bob to Alice and vice versa, Quantum Cryptography can be broken faster than the Caesar code this Italian mafioso was using.

    --
    OS Reviews: Free and Open Source Software
    1. Re:Quantum Snake Oil by MaceyHW · · Score: 1

      The claim wasn't that the system was unbreakable, only the encryption.

      However, the far more important weakness in this system is that it only works over a direct fiber-optic link between the two devices (no routers, no repeaters).

    2. Re:Quantum Snake Oil by arose · · Score: 1

      Which brings us to the other part of the hype...
      "The work is a step toward using conventional high-speed networks such as broadband Internet and local-area networks to transmit ultra-secure video for applications such as surveillance."

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    3. Re:Quantum Snake Oil by fatphil · · Score: 1

      If Eve is _already_ pretending to be Bob to Alice, or
      if Bob and Alice have no way of authenticating each other.

      However, on the whole, if you're building a site-site fibre link, then
      you'd expect the two parties to already be able to authenticate each
      other.

      At some point there needs to exist a side channel. But after that,
      assuming you use the provably secure _primitive_ using an accepted protocol, then you will have provably unbreakable and un-MITM-able crypto.

      Phil

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  16. "unbreakable"? by polv0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's like giving a DEA agent in Columbia a "bulletproof" vest.

    1. Re:"unbreakable"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's Colombia, not Columbia.

    2. Re:"unbreakable"? by nasch · · Score: 1

      Bulletproof is a misnomer. In this case, unbreakable is not, if you would care to read the other replies.

    3. Re:"unbreakable"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or giving a "bulletproof" vest to the iraq people to help them defend against the marines..

  17. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only if the pretense occurred during keysharing, which isn't a problem mathematical cryptography can address. In other words, you're only correct because you're redefining the entire argument--quantum cryptography is unbreakable, and a system which uses quantum cryptography can be broken. Big whoop.

  18. Actual transmission? by Smidge204 · · Score: 1
    From TFA:

    The high speed of the system enables use of the most secure cipher known for ensuring the privacy of a communications channel, in which one secret key bit, known only to the communicating parties, is used only once to encrypt one video bit.

    So if your "secure" stream must be used to transmit a key the same size as the actual data (bit for bit) and, being effectively a one-time pad, you should never re-use the same key (makes storing the key ahead of time basically pointless) then why not just send the actual data over the "secure" stream and do away with the public stream altogether?

    =Smidge=
    1. Re:Actual transmission? by PatrickThomson · · Score: 1

      The secure stream is generated randomly on the fly by quantum mechanics.

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    2. Re:Actual transmission? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 'secure stream' isn't actually secure (in the sense of being hard to decrypt). It's the code stream, which is randomly generated by a quantum process.

      One line sends the ciphertext, the other line sends the key. Due to the way quantum encryption works, you can send the key without any special security precautions, because you'll always know if the key stream is being hijacked (unless the eavesdropper guesses exactly right on every useful bit, which grows exponentially more difficult as the key size increases). Since the key is as long as the ciphertext, it is virtually impossible for an eavesdropper to hijack the keyline undetected, or even get useful information out of the keyline.

      The point of all this is my first sentence - the 'secure' stream is just what they call the key stream. It's the one that employs quantum encryption. The message stream can be sent unsecured, because it's only transmitting ciphertext, which is useless unless you can obtain the proper key.

    3. Re:Actual transmission? by madcow_bg · · Score: 1

      You cannot transmit by it, because you CANNOT modify it!!!
      But, you can use it to XOR it with whatever you want to transmit. Voila!!!

    4. Re:Actual transmission? by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The reason you transmit the pad instead of the actual data is that the properties of the system don't prevent evesdropping, they only make it detectable. If you transmitted the actual data over the "secure" stream, someone could still intercept it. You'd know that they intercepted it, but by then it would be too late to do anything about it. However, if you transmit the pad over the secure stream you can know which bits were intercepted prior to encrypting the data and can remove those bits from the pad. NOTE: I see someone already posted something similar after I started posting, but I think this version is a bit easier to understand for someone who isn't used to quantum cryptography.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
  19. from the article by mapkinase · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The rules of quantum mechanics ensure that anyone intercepting the key is detected, thus providing highly secure key exchange.


    What about the noise of some of the photons being lost (absorption)? The system has to be stable against it. Ergo, one can hide herself under the noise threshold.

    PS. It has been 20 years since my quantum mechanics exams.
    --
    I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    1. Re:from the article by andy_t_roo · · Score: 1

      any photons that are lost are either through interception or absorption are simply ignored - the only thing that can be intercepted is stuff that would end up being ignored by the intended recipient.

      what QE represents is a means to ensure that 1 and only 1 recipient can get a message, or part of a message. if the intended receiver of the OTP gets the random key, then he knows that no one else has it and that it can be used to securely transmit a message via conventional means

    2. Re:from the article by fatphil · · Score: 1

      You seem to have a better insight than most!
      There is a technique used for both (a) recovering from noise and (b) assuring that if the noise is caused by evesdroppers then the information they can recover tells them nothing about the original payload.

      Basically you have to make the message larger, like any error correcting scheme, but such that if you assume no more than a certain proportion of bits are leaked, there are equiprobable encodings for every possible symbol that could contain such leaked bits.

      Hmmm, here's a very clumsy example which doesn't handle the SNR part:
      encode 0 as any of { 00, 11 },
      and 1 as { 01, 10 }
      Let's say the source stream is '0', encoded to '00'
      Let's also assume that none of the signal is lost to noise or evesdropping.
      However, let's also assume the evesdropper did grab one bit.
      If the evesdropper knows the message is 'x0' then it could have been '00' or '10', so the evesdropper has gained no info.
      Likewise if he knows the transmitted message is 'x1' or '0x' or '1x', he gains no information about the plaintext.

      Traditionally you would compress the plaintext before expanding it using these kinds of schemes.

      Such techniques are typically called "privacy amplification". I would hope that Helger Lipmaa has some stuff on his website, as he seems to have lots of useful things to refer to. (I think he may be at ut.ee now, rather than cs.hut.fi)

      FatPhil

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  20. Quantum Encryption != Quantum Computing by ClickOnThis · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article is about quantum encryption, not computing. IIRC, quantum encryption employs the quantum characteristics of photons to make it impossible to eavesdrop on a communication without altering it, thus rendering it uncrackable. Whereas quantum computing employs the overlapping of quantum states of systems in order to provide a kind of natural ability to perform "parallel" computations.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  21. I already have quantum keys... by Thud457 · · Score: 0

    whenever I'm looking for them, they're not there!!!!

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  22. Why send the key? Why not send the video itself? by dpbsmith · · Score: 1

    I'm completely baffled. The article says that the system transmits bits of "key" over a quantum-secured channel, and that "The rules of quantum mechanics ensure that anyone intercepting the key is detected." It then says that video is encrypted, using one key bit per video bit.

    Why not just send the video itself over the quantum-secured channel?

    In both cases, if someone was "detected" intercepting the key, you'd have to stop sending your information, so why not just send the information of the quantum channel and stop immediately if interception were detected?

  23. So, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    where is the code ?

    v

  24. Re:Why send the key? Why not send the video itself by LordOfTheNoobs · · Score: 1

    By sending the key, they will notice its interception, and never send the sensitive data, thus never risking any part of it. To just send the data would confer the ability to steal it, though with the senders knowledge.

    --
    They're there affecting their effect.
  25. Fiber optics is the answer. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Photons travel in optic fibers just fine - polarization state and all. Around corners, bent by index of refraction gradients and bouncing off index of refraction continuities, etc.

    Might as well be using line-of-sight and telescopes, as some (but not all) of the experiments did.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  26. Unbreakable != Useful by oddRaisin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So the code is unbreakable. It's also highly susceptible to DOS attacks. As soon as someone attempts to view the photons, they disrupt the key, which will disrupt the transmission of information. In the case of surveillance, I would think that this is as least as useful as being able to watch the stream itself.

    1. Re:Unbreakable != Useful by Rumagent · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It could be argued that "susceptible to DOS attacks" is present in all crypto systems, that uses public (or not so public, for that matter) transmission systems - it is trivial to distort a message regardless of whether it is encrypted or not. What you view as a vice, I would characterize as a virtue. Now, at least, you know when Eve is trying to eavesdrop.

  27. Unbreakable ...Encryption MD5? by Pixelmixer · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Wasnt MD5 Encryption once referred to as Unbreakable ??

    --
    "What happend to just paying for a product without being constantly nibbled to death by Credit Card Ducks?"
    1. Re:Unbreakable ...Encryption MD5? by Russ+Steffen · · Score: 1

      Not by anyone with a clue, and for a multitude of reasons. The least of which is the little detail of MD5 not being any sort of encryption at all.

    2. Re:Unbreakable ...Encryption MD5? by Pixelmixer · · Score: 1

      its used in alot of places to encrypt passwords... hence "encryption"

      --
      "What happend to just paying for a product without being constantly nibbled to death by Credit Card Ducks?"
    3. Re:Unbreakable ...Encryption MD5? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MD5 is not encryption. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, so just stop before you get burned.

    4. Re:Unbreakable ...Encryption MD5? by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 2, Informative

      Its not encryption, but is what is called a hash. Think of it more like a fingerprint of data. If you alter the data then the fingerprint is no longer the same.

      Now a hash is what would be called one-way encryption. That means from the 'encrypted data' there is _no way whatsoever_ to determine what the original data was. What is being discussed in this /. thread is 2 way encryption, meaning you would determine the original data from the encrypted data.

      The md5 hash is useful if you want to verify a password without sending the password itself across the line, you can just compare hashes without fear that someone is going to intercept the password itself. It is been proven that 2 datasets can produce the same md5 hash (this is known as a collision). This is why you have run into md5 being used in conjunction with passwords. That being said, as it is a one way encryption, md5 would be of no use whatsoever if you were trying to securely transmit a file, it would only be useful for the person on the other end to determine if the file had been altered in-route.

      Hope that helps.

    5. Re:Unbreakable ...Encryption MD5? by Spudster · · Score: 1

      Yes, MD5 is a weak encryption. Check out http://www.hashbreaker.com/, you can download MD5 rainbowtables free to crack MD5 hashes.

    6. Re:Unbreakable ...Encryption MD5? by Pixelmixer · · Score: 1

      ahh, I see... I was off topic i supose, but we were both right. Mine was just 1 way encryption, but a form of encryption none-the-less.

      --
      "What happend to just paying for a product without being constantly nibbled to death by Credit Card Ducks?"
    7. Re:Unbreakable ...Encryption MD5? by Heembo · · Score: 1

      MD5 is not an encryption algorithm, it's a hash function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Md5

      --
      Horns are really just a broken halo.
    8. Re:Unbreakable ...Encryption MD5? by Heembo · · Score: 1

      Sir, MD5 is not an encryption algorithm, it is a hash algorithm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_function

      Encryption implies the ability to "obscure" a message as well as the ability to "uncover" the message through some special method. MD5 is only a one-way algorithm, used to make a "fingerprint" of data for verification, but not for encrypting.

      --
      Horns are really just a broken halo.
  28. Question by shma · · Score: 1

    I've always had an issue with quantum encryption that doesn't so much stem from the technical aspects so much as from the basic requirements of any cypher.

    Probably the most basic requirement of any encryption system is that it be able to send the encoded message quickly and easily. If I have an ultra secure magic box that I want to use to send key information to someone, but I can't get him the box, then it's useless to me. Now, the details of the transfer of information generally don't come into play when discussing most cyphers because the details of transfer are completely unrelated to the particular cypher being used. But quantum encryption is different. Any evesdropping on a transfer line will corrupt the message, not allowing the receiving party a chance to decode it. This makes jamming any line as simple as listening in (and of course, if we weren't worried about people listening in, we wouldn't need encryption in the first place). So does anyone here know how this issue is being addressed?

    --
    I came here for a good argument
    1. Re:Question by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      It's not, I think you've basically just described the limitations of the system. They're more or less inherent to it; it's the disruption that occurs as the result of eavesdropping that gives the whole setup much of its security. If that didn't happen, you'd be better off just stringing some copper bell wire and being done with it.

      There are other forms of encryption -- conventional Diffie-Hellman public key stuff, for example -- which although I don't think anyone says it's unbreakable, are more appropriate for use when you can't accept the limitations of a quantum system, or where you need a more robust system that can tolerate eavesdropping without compromising the transmission. Using a big enough keysize, you can have reasonably good security; it might not be "perfect forward security," like you'd get with a quantum OTP, but I can't think of too many places where it wouldn't be acceptable.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    2. Re:Question by moody · · Score: 1

      I think the problem is a function of how QC would be used. If you are using it in a military operation communicating across enemy lines, this could be a big problem. Keeping a functioning, unmolested fiber optic cable going could be nearly impossible.

      However, if you are a Big Mega Bank 1 sending financial transfer information to Big Mega Bank 2, simply knowing that no one has intercepted the information is enough. If someone is jamming your communication, you get the telecommunication company, police, military, etc. involved, find the place the line has been compromised, take care of the issue and continue sending your communications. It's an inconvenience but not an insurmountable problem in peacetime in a developed country.

      I expect QC to become more important if Quantum computers are developed to the state that they can factor the huge prime numbers that are used in current secure cryptography easily.

  29. Re:Why send the key? Why not send the video itself by spun · · Score: 1

    I don't think you can send information down the quantum channel. You entangle two photons. One goes to person A, one to person B. Person A measures the spin of one, and becuase they are entangled, he now knows that the other has opposite spin. He uses the spin to generate one bit of a one time pad, knowing that person B can derive that bit from his photon. There is no way of encoding information in those bits, it is random which way the spin is until you measure it, and then you know the spin of both particles. So the quantum part is only useful in sending a string of completely random bits, perfect for a one time pad, considerably less so for actual data. If the photon is intercepted along the way, person B won't get the photon and can not decrypt the data stream, therefore, he knows that the quantum chanel is compromised. At least, that's how I understand it.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  30. Re:Why send the key? Why not send the video itself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you send the data in the clear and it is intercepted, then it may never reach you, so you will not know it has been intercepted.

    Instead, by sending a key, you can wait until the key has arrived safely and been confirmed before sending any of the data. If the key was intercepted, a new key should be generated. The Quantum Wotsit ensures that no-one can intercept it and resend it without you knowing.

    As I see it, the only flaw would be in confirming reception of the quantum key... an attacker could spoof the "Key received" message in some way, and so fool the sending system into thinking that it was now safe to send the encrypted data...

  31. Not really. by jd · · Score: 4, Informative
    Quantum Cryptography employs a one-time pad. One-time pads cannot be broken without the pad, because every possible decoded state is equally valid. Breaking cryptography relies on being able to know when you have the right key, but if all keys are equally good, you have no means of knowing. This is made worse by the fact that a true OTP involves a key of equal length to the message. So you not only have no means of knowing which key is correct, you have virtually no hope of sweeping through that part of the keyspace that actually has the right key.


    The one big vulnerability with OTPs is that you've now got to send the key securely. Since it is equal in size to the message and is only valid for one message, it is equally hard to send the key securely as it is to send the message securely. Because the pad is pure randomness, it is possible (using existing methods) to send the pad by public key encryption, as it is non-trivial for someone intercepting the message to know how to decrypt it, as it's hard to know when you've broken the encryption. One piece of randomness looks much like another.


    Generally, though, people take shortcuts. Instead of using a full-sized one-time pad, a much smaller, repeatedly-used pad is used instead, with some form of pseudo-random mangling to churn things up so that it acts in a very similar manner to a one-time pad. This is generally how stream ciphers work.


    Quantum Cryptography - if used sensibly - would involve transmitting a gigantic OTP. Far bigger than the one you need. You then drop all of the bytes that are intercepted. The only bytes used in the pad are the ones the intercepting person does NOT have, so you know the pad is free of holes.


    A "better" solution would be to not transmit the key at all, but somehow exploit photon teleportation to deliver the key in a secure manner. However, if you could do that, you wouldn't need encryption in the first place.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:Not really. by Tilgore+Krout · · Score: 1

      Even after a bit of reading I still fail to see how Quantum Cryptography prevents man-in-the-middle attacks from working.

      If the OTP is intercepted from the transmitter by a 'man-in-the-middle' and at the same time he transmits a new OTP to the receiver how will either side be any wiser? The man-in-the-middle does not let either side of the conversation to communicate directly with each other therefore not allowing them to compare notes to see if the OTP was intercepted (or even if they are using the same OTP).

      The 'man-in-the-middle' can then intercept the encrypted message using the first OTP and re-transmit it to the intended receiver using the second OTP.

      --
      main(){char*c="main(){char*c=%c%s%c;printf(c,34,c, 34);}";printf(c,34,c,34);}
    2. Re:Not really. by radtea · · Score: 1

      The 'man-in-the-middle' can then intercept the encrypted message using the first OTP and re-transmit it to the intended receiver using the second OTP.

      This is correct. So long as there are two independent quantum connections, a fully classical intermediary is permitted.

      Because human beings are notoriously classical systems, the quantum nature of the state transmission only buys you proof against eavesdroppers, not men in the middle who are prepared to completely replicate the transmission and recieving apparatus. And of course, if quantum cryptography were in routine use, such apparatus would be relatively available.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    3. Re:Not really. by radtea · · Score: 1

      but somehow exploit photon teleportation

      No photon has ever been teleported. Ever.

      The only "thing" "teleported" is the quantum state, whose slippery ontological status makes it a bad candidate for thingness, and therefore an unlikely object of teleportation, which in normal usage refers to moving things, like Captain Kirk, and not non-things, like quantum state vectors.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    4. Re:Not really. by perspicaciously · · Score: 1

      It seems like it might be much more difficult to stage a man-in-the-middle attack, since this system disallows any form of routing or repeating during the transmission--the attacker would have to physically cut into the fiber optic cable connecting the two parties, install a reciever on one end and a transmitter on the other, and then operate as they wish. This is location specific, and seems MUCH more risky than most cyber attacks. Am I missing something?

    5. Re:Not really. by fatphil · · Score: 1

      """
      Because the pad is pure randomness, it is possible (using existing methods) to send the pad by public key encryption
      """

      You would never do this. It's "just plain silly".

      If you trust PKC, then you don't need OTP.

      FatPhil

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    6. Re:Not really. by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      it is equally hard to send the key securely as it is to send the message securely.

      You don't have to send the key securely, just tamper-proof. i.e. Your diplomatic pouch is sent handcuffed to the wrist of a trusted courier who does not have a key to the briefcase it's in. If your courier is intercepted, your opponent doesn't get anything, since it's just a random key, and you invalidate that one and send another. Only after your personel on the other side verify that they have recieved the pads untampered with, do you sent the encrypted message.

      That's basically whats going on here. Since your photons are quantumly entangled, what happens to one, happens to the other. If a group of photons is intercepted, you know, and discard the information on your end, and retransmit.

      This is really only useful in extreme cases, since I would imagine most of the big players are sending their pads on DVD-R these days. A diplomatic pouch full of DVDs is a load of data, enough to handle years of encrypted text messages.

      If you want to hear OTP in use, tune your shortwave radio between 10-15 MHz in the evening. You find stations that are just voices saying groups of 5 numbers, seemingly randomly. These are OTP messages to field agents. (Spys) They write down the numbers on the paper pad that has the random key on it, and transliterate the message by hand.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    7. Re:Not really. by jd · · Score: 1

      The PKI would not be used for its encryption properties, but for its authentication properies, which a pure one-time pad does not have. You can substitute any authentication scheme that you like in there, you just need to be able to guarantee that the pad originates with the person it is supposed to, and that there isn't some kind of substitution by means of a man-in-the-middle attack.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  32. One time pads are... by Temujin_12 · · Score: 1
    ...an example of a theoretically optimal situation that has no practicality. Its like the "spherical chickens in a frictionless vacuum at absolute zero" scenarios in physics. They simply don't pan out in the real world. One the reasons is that,

    "it doesn't solve the security problem. One way to look at encryption is that it takes very long secrets--the message--and turns them into very short secrets: the key. With a one-time pad, you haven't shrunk the secret any. It's just as hard to courier the pad to the recipient as it is to courier the message itself...Any product that claims to use a one-time pad is almost certainly lying. And if they're not, the product is almost certainly unusable and/or insecure." --Secrets and Lies
    --
    Faith is a willingness to accept something w/o complete proof and to act on it. Reason allows you to correct that faith.
    1. Re:One time pads are... by Kuciwalker · · Score: 0

      The difference being that you can courier the pad in advance. Send a whole stack every month to the embassy so they can decrypt messages you email them. Give them to a company of soldiers and then broadcast encrypted messages to them by radio.

    2. Re:One time pads are... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole idea of quantum encryption is to ferry the one-time pad in a way where if an interceptor attempts to even read the message, it destroys it for the intended recipient, who can tell it was destroyed. You at that point know the pad is worthless before the attacker can even use it. It makes man-in-the-middile attacks a hard problem.

    3. Re:One time pads are... by FhnuZoag · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, the point is that your pad can be sent at a time when you have secure communication - such as on an USB drive in face to face contact. Then, you can send the message later at any time without secure communication. It's a method of shifting the moment that messages have to be sent to be a time when you can guarantee security.

    4. Re:One time pads are... by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      Well, it would have "no practicality," except for the fact that a quantum link (which is the centerpiece of the whole quantum encryption stuff) lets you transmit that one-time-pad keystream to your recipient, without it being intercepted in transit. It's physically possible, within the bounds of physics as we know them today, to intercept the keystream without altering it.

      There are certainly side attacks on the system as a whole; there have got to be places at either end of the quantum link where the keystream exists in an unprotected form and could be intercepted, but it does seem like a system like this would be impervious to a completely remote third-party intercept.

      I think it's safe to say that no cryptosystem is unbreakable, but I think there are certain features of particular modes of data transmission which may be. Whether or not you think that's significant or trivial depends on your point of view, though.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    5. Re:One time pads are... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      All the real intelligence agencies that have used one-time pads would probably be surprised to learn they have no practicality. Encryption is not all about turning big secrets into small secrets, its all about communicating valuable secrets while preventing unwanted spread of the secrets. Reducing the problem of exchanging big secrets to exchanging small secrets that unlock the bigger secrets so that the latter can be safely sent where they can be seen by all without being intelligible is a means, not the ends, of encryption. A better description of the general problem avoids the focus on size, and says that encryption is all about eliminating vulnerabilities in the exchange of secrets. OTP's eliminate analytical attacks on the message ideally, but suck in most other ways. Quantum encryption eliminates covert interception of the message, but do little in any other way.



      One-time pads aren't optimal solutions in any general sense. They are narrowly optimal in that the transmission containing the valuable secret cannot be broken without the key (the pad), since, implemented properly, every possible message of the given length is an equally likely decryption, and there is no way to narrow it down, even knowing what part of the message is. So they are optimal in that sense.



      On the other hand, they require secure advance exchange of a large (but, independently, not valuable) secret before hand, which must be protected lest it be combined later with the valuable secret to unlock it. This doesn't give them "no practicality", it means that they are useful in particular cases, but not in others.



      Similarly, quantum encryption, which is perfectly immune to man-in-the-middle attacks, but has lots of its own problems. You can't, for instance, store a quantum-encrypted message practically, so it has to be encrypted by some other system as well if it is going to be stored securely at the receiving end, and it's real security even against interception en route will be determined by the other encryption scheme, not the quantum scheme, since all quantum encryption guarantees is that you can't intercept the message without interfering with the intended receiver getting it, and therefore your interception will be detected.


    6. Re:One time pads are... by nasch · · Score: 1
      all quantum encryption guarantees is that you can't intercept the message without interfering with the intended receiver getting it, and therefore your interception will be detected.
      No, it guarantees that any interception of the key will be detected. Once a key is known to have been securely transmitted, OTP encryption is used, which is unbreakable if implemented correctly. How practical will it be to implement correctly for this type of communication? Probably not very since I guess you have to have a single piece of fiber between the endpoints.
    7. Re:One time pads are... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      quantum encryption, which is perfectly immune to man-in-the-middle attacks

      This isn't true. It's immune to *eavesdropping* attacks but what is usually called a MITM attack (also known as a "bucket brigade") is perfectly possible, at least in a naive implmentation.

      There's nothing that quantum cryptography brings to the table that would make it any harder to, before communication commenses, cut the line and insert essentially a repeater.

      Think about classic crypto. Say Alice is trying to talk to Bob and doing Diffie-Hellman to establish a key. Alice sends out a message with her "public key" to Bob. Eve intercepts this message, picks out her own key pair, and forwards her public keys to both Alice and Bob. Bob gives his public key to Eve (thinking he's giving it to Alice). Now when Alice sends a message to Bob, she encrypts it with what she thinks is a private key known only to Bob but is, in fact, a private key known only to Eve. Eve gets the message, decrypts it, encrypts it using the key she shares with Bob, and sends it to Bob. Without authentication outside of DH, Alice and Bob both know they are talking securely to someone, but don't know who.

      Quantum crypto has the same vulnerability. Unless you can verify the endpoints of your fibre cable, or do some authentication above what QC provides you, you would not be able to tell that Eve was listening. (Beyond perhaps a delay.)

      What QC gives you is guaranteed integrity of the channel with whomever you are talking to, not just the classical "guarantee" of it being really hard to break, so Eve can't eavesdrop on Alice and Bob without them knowing. BUT -- this is not a MITM attack.

    8. Re:One time pads are... by pablob · · Score: 1

      A quantum cryptography implementation with a single photon source is not vulnerable to the "insert a repeater in the middle" attack. This is because it is impossible(1) to faithfully copy a quantum state without knowing a priori what it is. So, any kind of repeater that is subreptitiously inserted in the path will introduce an error rate higher than the expected and thus can be detected, without the need to perform "extra" authentication (as in the classical case).

          Current implementations of quantum cryptography don't use perfect single photon sources but rather highly attenuated lasers, which have a non-zero probability of emitting a pair of identical photons. In this case you could, in principle, take one of those photons and let the other go and eavesdrop without being detected (not that it is technically easy, though).

      (1): As far as quantum mechanics really describes our physical reality.

      Pablo B.

  33. Re:Why send the key? Why not send the video itself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article says no such thing. It talks about "generating" a key, not transmitting one. What the technique does is produce two identical copies of random bits at the two endpoints. You cannot choose which bits are produced, so what you do is use them as a one time pad.

  34. Ya, right! by big+dumb+dog · · Score: 1

    ..."for applications such as surveillance"

    Ya, right! You know that the only people using this technology is going to be porn site webmasters, trying to keep their feeds from Amsterdam secure.

    --
    "Seven years of college down the drain. Might as well join the f-ing Peace Corps." - John 'Bluto' Blutarsky
  35. If employed correctly... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

    Let's be a little more clear.

    OTP is unbreakable through direct cryptanalysis.

    OTP is NOT unbreakable if the "opposition" gets the a hold of the pad somehow.

    So, employed correctly implies that 1) you only use the pad once, 2) the pad is distributed to both A and B in secrecy, the the opposition (C) getting it, and 3) that pad is truly random. (IOW, it can't be some obvious pattern).

    Those three conditions are a heck of a lot harder to implement than you might think because at some point, the key (the pad) must be distributed to A and B or from A to B in plaintext.

    1. Re:If employed correctly... by vertinox · · Score: 1

      OTP is NOT unbreakable if the "opposition" gets the a hold of the pad somehow.

      Well even the most complicated security schemes can be thrawted by social engineering. What if the recipient with the one time pad is a double agent and willfully hands over the data he decrypts?

      This is of course a matter of trust and not a matter of encryption strength.

      The question in this case would be "Do you trust the recipient?" rather than "Do you trust the encryption stregnth?"

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    2. Re:If employed correctly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OTP is NOT unbreakable if the "opposition" gets the a hold of the pad somehow.
      I was not aware that decryption when given the ciphertext and key was considered "breaking" a cipher.

  36. my tabby cat is always playing with keys by pdxguy · · Score: 1

    He likes to drag them around and make noise with them. He's a big tabby tom - about 17 pounds and a yard long. Now if I could teach him to teach the paper...

  37. In other words... by Gorimek · · Score: 1

    So you're saying that you're certain that there can't be certainty?

    You know, saying that it's impossible to make something unbreakable, is just going to challenge someone to do it.

  38. Man in the Middle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Okay, I read wikipedia on this, but I really fail to see how you cannot mount a man in the middle attack.

    If Alice and Bob are going to do the key exchange thing, what is to stop Eve from stepping into the middle before it begins. Then Alice actually winds up doing a key exchange with Eve and Eve does a corresponding (but different one) with Alice.

    Sure the quantum things is going to ensure the keys are different, but that is not going to help Alice and Bob unless they actually have a secure channel to compare them on. Without that, Eve can just continuously translate between Bob and Alice, decrypting with the one key and re-encrypting with the other, and no one will be none the wiser.

    Really, as far as I can see, this is only any good if you have another secure channel (and if you have that, apart from a postmortem evaluation, why are you doing all this anyway).

    1. Re:Man in the Middle by barawn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If Alice and Bob are going to do the key exchange thing, what is to stop Eve from stepping into the middle before it begins. Then Alice actually winds up doing a key exchange with Eve and Eve does a corresponding (but different one) with Alice.

      Keep in mind that Eve's (let's call her Mallory, M) key must be different. A's key is random, and there's no way to forcably regenerate A's states given B's intended reception.

      So instead of sending the OTP you want to use for the message, send more. Let's send three times the amount, in fact. We'll use one third for the message (once it's verified secure), and one third to verify the key. The other third I'll explain in a bit.

      Note that each of those thirds is independent, but if you have one third, you have all thirds. So you send this OTP, and then A establishes communications with B via a different channel. Doesn't have to be secure. Just has to be definitely with B. This includes physically going to B's location (I guess I'm assuming that M can't physically clone and replace B and somehow convince A that M's in B's location...).

      Now, once that's done: so B definitely has a copy of A's OTP. Included in that OTP is one third that won't be used for anything - A uses this in the next OTP transmission to insert keyed states - that is, instead of a completely random string, there are 1s and 0s in places that are determined by the previous OTP. M can't know this - she doesn't have the previous OTP. And she can't recognize anything's wrong until the entire key's transmitted and she does a frequency analysis and realize that it doesn't look entirely random.

      The problem was that she attempted to send the OTP to B without knowing about those positions. So she sent random noise in those locations. So now B knows that M isn't A, and the attack fails.

      The one-third OTP can continue to be used in future exchanges to verify that A is A and B is B.

      That sort of thing could be done with a normal OTP exchange too, I think. The main benefit is the initial exchange, where you know that if your recipient has one third of the key - or really, any part - they, and only they - have the whole thing.

      Which is why 'physically going there' is probably unnecessary. It doesn't matter if someone wiretaps the phone hearing the verification OTP. That doesn't help them at all. The only thing 'physically going there' prevents is a universal man-in-the-middle attack.

    2. Re:Man in the Middle by nasch · · Score: 1

      This relies on having a single piece of fiber in between the two end points. So the man in the middle attack would have to physically dig up the cable and cut it. Beyond that, you could also do public/private key authentication so that Alice can ensure that whoever she's talking to has access to Bob's private key, and vice versa.

  39. using entangled particles by 0ptix · · Score: 1

    If i'm not mistaken then that is exactly how one uses entangled particles (photons in your example). the idea is that when two particles are entangled then if alice reads the spin of her particle she will get the same reading as bob (provided they use the same base to messure the spin). The problem with transmitting information (and the reason why this doesnt break the "nothing goes faster then the speed of light" rule) is that the entangled pair can not be created to read to a predefined spin (= bit value). Thus the result is a correlated but random result. ideal for setting up a OTP but no good for actual information exchange. on the other hand i'm no quantum computer scientist nor a physicist so all the usual disclaimers apply here.

  40. Re:Why send the key? Why not send the video itself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Great! So it works well, until someone cracks god's RNG.

  41. Man-in-the-Middle by 0ptix · · Score: 1

    This seems to be a deffinition problem. What is not possible (as the wiki article points out) is a man in the middle _where A and B end up with the same key_. However if we assume that Mallory is also between A and B for all conventional communication (i.e. not the quantum chanel) then things are different. A and M agree on a key, and M and B agree on a different key. then when A and B use normal channels to acertain if they can understand each other (implying they have agreed on the same key.) now Mallory can act as a go between decrypting A's messages and rencrypting them to B. So A and B believe they can understand each other and M is sitting happily in the middle. this is ofcourse a more general problem though. namely that all one ever can verify in the digital world (quantum or not) is that one is communicating with a key (be it a OTP, pk/sk pair, symetric key or whatever) but NOT with an entity. i.e. you are not sending a message to Alice but to alice's key. who knows who actually owns alice's key. maybe not alice at all. as it so happens, solving this problem was the main motivation behind the invention of PKI and Certifactes. These attempt to establish a chain of trust linking a key to an entity. pure quantum key exchange algorithms do nothing to deal with this problem though and thus suffer from the same type of man in the middle as an anonymous deffie hellman does.

    1. Re:Man-in-the-Middle by barawn · · Score: 1

      However if we assume that Mallory is also between A and B for all conventional communication (i.e. not the quantum chanel) then things are different.

      Yes, but there you'd have to assume that M is between A and B for literally all communications.

      Including A driving over to B and getting some of the overlong OTP for verification (i.e. you transmit more than the OTP you're planning on using - you use the excess part for verification).

      Once the first secure OTP is transmitted, that OTP can be used to key future communications to be completely untappable even if M is between A and B: because part of the previous OTP (unused, obviously) could be used to insert keyed states in the OTP stream. M, lacking previous OTPs, wouldn't be able to convince B that he's A because he wouldn't be able to recognize the keyed states in A's OTP stream until it's too late. (Actually, he wouldn't be able to recognize them at all - he'd just be able to recognize that there are keyed states in the stream. Which means all he'd know is that he's screwed.)

      All you need to do, therefore, to set up a connection that's secure from everything except inside jobs is set up the link, send an initialization OTP, drive to the other side, verify that the initialization OTP was sent correctly, and then begin the secured traffic. The instant someone taps, or tries to insert themselves in between, you'll know.

  42. The weakest link by Urusai · · Score: 1

    As long as there are people in the security chain, they can be bribed or otherwise suborned.

  43. Trivial to block by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What good is quantum encryption if it is trivial to block communications by any party by trying to intercept?
    If the message doesn't go through, what good is it?

  44. breakable, even if employed correctly... by Tired_Blood · · Score: 1

    Even if OTP is employed correctly (used once, truly random, completely secret), there are still a finite amount of possible combinations that a message can represent. A sufficiently short message and knowing the context of the message will greatly reduce the security of any system.

    For example, if an eavesdropper is expecting a "yes" or "no" communication and captures a 2 character message: not so secure anymore, eh?

    In the end, everything has a breaking point. The point of using encryption is to make discovery more difficult, not completely impossible.

    --
    This is not my sig.
    1. Re:breakable, even if employed correctly... by prefect42 · · Score: 1

      But even with your example, the interceptor makes a foolish mistake and misinterprets "No!".

      --

      jh

    2. Re:breakable, even if employed correctly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Always thought that OTP messeges must have exactly the same pre-defined length. Say, 100 characters. Let's see you break that.

    3. Re:breakable, even if employed correctly... by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Oh dear - you've obviously never heard of padding.

      Message length may be part of the information in the message. (If length is constant, then it's not; if it's variable, then it is.) That too must be removed from pain sight.

      FatPhil

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    4. Re:breakable, even if employed correctly... by Tired_Blood · · Score: 1

      A single use pad is just a simple substitution cipher, employing a truly random and secret key. OTP does not specify parameters for message length, ever - that issue is beyond its scope.

      Message length can expose message content. OTP (when used by itself) has this one flaw which means that extra measures (such as using fixed length messages) are needed to combat this weakness. But, by utilizing these extra measures, the system then becomes "more than OTP".

      My response was to the claim that OTP is unbreakable, which I believe I proved false by counterexample. It's an extremely limited set, but you only need one counterexample.

      --
      This is not my sig.
  45. Good - now there's only the optical fibres needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whenever an undercover agent needs to report to HQ, all he has to do is dig up the street and lay optical fibre ..

  46. Repeat after me: by gweihir · · Score: 0
    • It is not ''quantum encryption'', it is ''quantum modulation''
    • ''Quantum modulation'' will not be usable over the normal network for a very long time, if ever. It has no relation to conventional natworking.
    • Nobody knows whether Quantum modulated signals can be listened in on or falsified. Quantum physics may have loopholes or be a bit imprecise. Enough to break the security. It may also be completely wrong. There is no proof either way today.


    The amount of nonsense some people will keep saying just to get attention is staggering.
    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  47. An Explanation of Quantum Encryption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First, the important thing about quantum encryption is the generation of the key. The actual message can be encrypted any old way - it doesn't matter. In this case, the key is used as a one-time pad.

    Now, here's how it works:

    First, you have some sort of quantum particle. The exact nature of the particle doesn't matter, you just need two different ways to encode a 0 or 1. We'll call these two methods A and B. If you encode a bit using method A, and the receiver uses method A, it should correctly tell you that the bit is a 0 or 1. If, however, the receiver attempts to use method B to decode the particle, it should randomly report a 0 or 1, so the receiver has no idea which is right.

    Now, here's the method. First, the sender creates a random string of 0s and 1s, and encodes them using a random sequence of encoding methods (the A or B methods). He sends this to the receiver, who attempts to decode it with a random sequence of A or B methods. This gives the receiver a key, though anytime the receiver used a different method than the sender, the particular bit may be incorrect (50% chance). Then, the receiver sends his sequence of decoding methods to the sender, who then checks it against his sequence and tells the receiver which ones were guessed correctly.

    So, now both the sender and receiver know which bits of the sequence were received successfully, and which bits were randomized by the receiver's attempt at decoding. They both ignore the randomized bits, and whatever is left over is used as the cipherkey.

    Voila! Both sender and receiver have the cipherkey, and the sender then encodes the text, transmits it, and the receiver unencrypts it.

    Now, why is this secure? Because of wave-function collapse. Remember when we created two methods of encoding 0s and 1s? That was very important. Due to the nature of quantum information, if you use the wrong method to decode the bit, the bit is set to whatever it happened to return. Basically, if you encode a bit with method A, then decode it with method B, it then acts like it was encoded with B forevermore. If you try using method A on it, you'll just get another random value. You can't get it back to the pre-measurement state. Thus, there are no do-overs. You measure it wrong once, and you can never try again with the other method. So, if an eavesdropper happens to ever guess wrong when the receiver guesses right, there is no way to correct the mistake. That bit is now random, with a 50% chance of being right and a 50% chance of being wrong. The eavesdropper can easily tell whether or not it's random by listening to the sender and receiver exchange decoding methods, but he can never tell what the correct value is.

    Thus, if they guess wrong once, their code has a 50% chance of having one bit wrong. That's easy enough to test - just try to decode the ciphertext twice. But if they guess wrong twice, there are two random bits in their key. That means four possible keys. Three wrong guesses yields 8 possible keys. You see where this is going. If you have a long enough key, the eavesdropper is bound to guess wrong lots of times, giving him too many keys to effectively test. On average, 1/4 of the of the guesses will be wrong (1/2 will be invalid because the receiver guessed wrong, and 1/2 of the remaining will be guessed wrong by the eavesdropper), so a quarter of the guesses will be random. 30 random guesses gives a billion possible keys. 40 gives a trillion. With a codebit for every messagebit (which is how it works in the encoding scheme used by these guys), a video (which consists of millions of bits at minimum) will produce more possible keys for an eavesdropper than there are particles in the universe.

    This wave-function collapse thing is how you know if an eavesdropper exists. They receive the bit, decode it with one method or another, then retransmit it. If they guessed wrong, though, then the bit they resend is random, and has a chance of being wrong. Again, with a long enough key, it's vi

  48. Not breakable WITH CURRENT UNDERSTANDING... by nick_davison · · Score: 1

    Yes, as we currently understand interaction on a quantum level, it's unbreakable.

    To assume it's permanently unbreakable assumes that all theories stay prefectly intact, exactly as specified, for all time and that no one comes up with any edge cases that no one else had previously considered.

    For a good 150 years, Newton's F = M x A where A=9.81m/s for the earth worked pretty well. Then an irksome German guy came along and came up with a more refined understanding. Newton's theory didn't stop being a pretty damn good approximation - it just turned out there were subtle variations to it that allowed for more complex theories.

    Similarly, the Germans were absolutely confident that Enigma was unbreakable to any practical degree. No matter how many mathematicians you could throw at it or how could your cracking code, it would be effectively impossible to break - even if you break one code, you couldn't break the next in any kind of a timely manner. Unfortunately for them, a British postal worker invented this cool thing that could do it a whole new way. The German theory that Enigma was effectively unbreakable remained true in their world that was lacking knowledge of computers.

    Right now, it's true, our understanding of electrons is such that, should we attempt to observe one, we fundamentally change it and thus reveal our attempt.

    And, in ten or fifty or a hundred years time, some other upstart patent clerk (which will account for 90% of the world's population as current patent law is going) will come up with some weird system that we can't even guess at now.

    All of the "properly" educated cryptologists will mock him and say, "The theory has been upheld for decades, centuries even. You can't observe an electron without disturbing it!" and he will carry on placing his weird jumble of quarks or whatever the hell he comes up with in close proximity to a butterfly flapping in Asia and read it unobserved. After he breaks enough of those codes and profits enough from the stolen data, they'll eventually, begrudgingly, begin to accept that... gosh, there might just be an expansion or refinement to the theory that, whilst the theory appeared just as true as Newton's view of gravity, there are things that aren't covered in our arrogance.

    But, if you guys would like to religiously quote current theory, and ideally get jobs for banks etc. - the rest of would love to profit off accepting that we may not be all knowing and that, who knows, sometimes new variations on current theories do get discovered. The longer your refuse to accept that, the longer we can exploit your determination and the richer we can get by doing so.

    1. Re:Not breakable WITH CURRENT UNDERSTANDING... by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      The really interesting thing to me is that since the encryption relies on physics which advances/changes drastically every century or two, it may be less secure than current public key encryption, which is based on mathmatical principles, though of course unsolvable equations get silved sometimes too.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    2. Re:Not breakable WITH CURRENT UNDERSTANDING... by PatrickThomson · · Score: 1

      if I have a choice between trusting "well, unless you have a supercomputer, it's unbreakable" and trusting "it's unbreakable unless you believe science fiction writers", I'd root for quantum theory.

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
  49. Assuming that... by not-admin · · Score: 1

    ...the source of randomness is in itself pattern-free. Also, they are highly inpractical for real usage, as it requires exchanging the key (thorugh a "less secure" method).

  50. Quantum cryptography by wurp · · Score: 1

    Quantum entanglement provides a way to distribute the pad from A to B that is not cleartext. Well, technically it provides a way to generate the same OTP at A and B at the same time while guaranteeing no one else intercepted it, but it's effectively the same.

  51. How messed up our heads are... by Catbeller · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Quantum crypto, a technology that can finally enable private communications for the masses, without being snooped on by the bosses and the government, and what killer app do we see?

    Surveillance, on us. Unbreakable, uncrackable without detection, so our paranoia-clamped citizenry can rest easy that our boss and our government can surveil anyone they like without fear of having some third party, such as a lawyer, see what they are watching.

    Mind-boggling. A pro-authoritarian mindset slipped in so easily.

  52. An Explanation of Quantum Encryption by Xanthir · · Score: 1

    Wee! I just registered for Slashdot. I had posted this previously as a coward, but here it is under my own name. First, the important thing about quantum encryption is the generation of the key. The actual message can be encrypted any old way - it doesn't matter. In this case, the key is used as a one-time pad. Now, here's how it works: First, you have some sort of quantum particle. The exact nature of the particle doesn't matter, you just need two different ways to encode a 0 or 1. We'll call these two methods A and B. If you encode a bit using method A, and the receiver uses method A, it should correctly tell you that the bit is a 0 or 1. If, however, the receiver attempts to use method B to decode the particle, it should randomly report a 0 or 1, so the receiver has no idea which is right. Now, here's the method. First, the sender creates a random string of 0s and 1s, and encodes them using a random sequence of encoding methods (the A or B methods). He sends this to the receiver, who attempts to decode it with a random sequence of A or B methods. This gives the receiver a key, though anytime the receiver used a different method than the sender, the particular bit may be incorrect (50% chance). Then, the receiver sends his sequence of decoding methods to the sender, who then checks it against his sequence and tells the receiver which ones were guessed correctly. So, now both the sender and receiver know which bits of the sequence were received successfully, and which bits were randomized by the receiver's attempt at decoding. They both ignore the randomized bits, and whatever is left over is used as the cipherkey. Voila! Both sender and receiver have the cipherkey, and the sender then encodes the text, transmits it, and the receiver unencrypts it. Now, why is this secure? Because of wave-function collapse. Remember when we created two methods of encoding 0s and 1s? That was very important. Due to the nature of quantum information, if you use the wrong method to decode the bit, the bit is set to whatever it happened to return. Basically, if you encode a bit with method A, then decode it with method B, it then acts like it was encoded with B forevermore. If you try using method A on it, you'll just get another random value. You can't get it back to the pre-measurement state. Thus, there are no do-overs. You measure it wrong once, and you can never try again with the other method. So, if an eavesdropper happens to ever guess wrong when the receiver guesses right, there is no way to correct the mistake. That bit is now random, with a 50% chance of being right and a 50% chance of being wrong. The eavesdropper can easily tell whether or not it's random by listening to the sender and receiver exchange decoding methods, but he can never tell what the correct value is. Thus, if they guess wrong once, their code has a 50% chance of having one bit wrong. That's easy enough to test - just try to decode the ciphertext twice. But if they guess wrong twice, there are two random bits in their key. That means four possible keys. Three wrong guesses yields 8 possible keys. You see where this is going. If you have a long enough key, the eavesdropper is bound to guess wrong lots of times, giving him too many keys to effectively test. On average, 1/4 of the of the guesses will be wrong (1/2 will be invalid because the receiver guessed wrong, and 1/2 of the remaining will be guessed wrong by the eavesdropper), so a quarter of the guesses will be random. 30 random guesses gives a billion possible keys. 40 gives a trillion. With a codebit for every messagebit (which is how it works in the encoding scheme used by these guys), a video (which consists of millions of bits at minimum) will produce more possible keys for an eavesdropper than there are particles in the universe. This wave-function collapse thing is how you know if an eavesdropper exists. They receive the bit, decode it with one method or another, then retransmit it. If they guessed wrong, though, then the bit they resend is random, and has a chance of being wrong. Again,

  53. What Is Quantum Encryption? by nneonneo · · Score: 1
    First of all, Quantum Encryption is better known as Quantum Cryptography (QC).
    I've heard a lot of nonsense and/or misinformation about QC on this newspost already.
    QC is a method of exchanging secure and random key data (usually a one time pad (OTP)). Following the key exchange, the data to be sent is encrypted with the key and transmitted over any non-secure channel.
    Scientific American ran an excellent article about this about a year ago: SciAm Article
    I also did a full semester's worth of study on this topic, so I hope that I am well informed.
    There are two basic ways to carry out QC:
    1. Using entangled photon pairs
    2. Using OTP negotiation

    Both methods are completely secure from interception attacks.
    The first method uses entangled photon pairs which are randomly generated from some secured source in the middle. The photons are then read at either end. As long as the source is not compromised, the method is secure. Even if the source is compromised, the attacker cannot triplicate the entangled photons, and also cannot read out the photons without compromising their entangled state. Thus, fake non-entangled photons would have to be sent out, possibly alerting the communicating parties.

    The other method, OTP negotiation, is much more developed and stable as of today. Alice (the sender) and Bob (the receiver) begin by establishing a one-time key for use with a cipher (such as an XOR cipher). Alice starts by choosing an orientation (orthagonal or diagonal) and then choosing a value (1 or 0).
    For example, Orthagonal values are '-' for 1 and '|' for 0, while Diagonal values are '/' for 1 and '\' for 0.
    Alice sends one of these 4 possible polarized photons to Bob, who chooses either the Orthagonal filter or Diagonal filter.
    The Orthagonal filter is a polarized filter in the '-' direction. '-' photons pass through and register 1, while '|' photons are blocked and register a 0. However, Diagonal photons have a 50/50 chance by quantum mechanics to twist into the filter, so the readout of a Diagonal photon is unreliable.
    Similarly, Diagonal filters cannot read Orthagonal photons accurately.
    Quantum mechanics ensures that nobody can read both orientation schemes at once accurately, and because the photon may twist through the wrong filter, a measurement can only be taken once correctly.
    After the photon reaches Bob and he has measured it, Alice tells Bob which orientation she used (Orthagonal or Diagonal). Bob then tells Alice whether or not he used the right filter. If he used the right one, they keep the bit, otherwise it is discarded.
    This process repeats for the entire length of the message.
    If Eve is intercepting the line, however, she will have to choose a filter and risk twisting the photon.
    For example: Alice chooses '\'. Eve intercepts and reads using Orthagonal, and the photon twists into '-'. Bob then reads using Diagonal, giving the twisted value '/' (1). Since Alice and Bob both chose the same orientation, the bit is retained. However, the bit is incorrect, leading to errors in encryption.
    To detect problems or an interceptor, Alice and Bob perform a keycheck when they finish the negotiation. Alice selects several values at random and sends their values and positions to Bob, who checks them and reports back. If any discrepancies are noted, the entire key is invalidated and the process starts over on a new channel. Otherwise, the check bits are discarded and encryption can proceed.

    As noted, this is a lot of work for a simple encryption, considering that modern ciphers such as RSA-4096 are unbreakable by modern computers. However, quantum computers (capable of breaking RSA in nanoseconds) will eventually present a danger to these ciphers.
    Thus, QC is not yet practical, unless you believe the NSA can break RSA, but it has already proven to be mathematically and practically unbreakable.
    The word

    1. Re:What Is Quantum Encryption? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (yawn)

    2. Re:What Is Quantum Encryption? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Awesome, that' a good overview of this process.

      Question: You mention that Alice and Bob needs to identify each other to prevent the classic man-in-the-middle attack where Eve re-encrypts messages and passes them on. How is this accomplished securely?

    3. Re:What Is Quantum Encryption? by barawn · · Score: 1

      P.S. Of course, QC is not perfect, because inside jobs can still steal the data, sabotage the sender/receiver or use the classic Man-In-The-Middle attack

      How is the Man-in-the-Middle attack doable? Practically, at least.

      Double the size of the OTP transmitted. Keep in mind Bob doesn't have Alice's key - it's just that Bob has a key and Alice has a key and those two keys happen to mathematically be related.

      So Alice can ask Bob to transmit up to half of her OTP (which is twice as long as they need). This can be done via multiple insecure channels, as that portion of the data is discarded. It could be done physically, for that matter. All it does is verify that the recipient of the OTP is who you intended it to be.

      The man-in-the-middle can't grab a random half of the OTP and let the other half get to Bob, and the OTP that M sends to Bob won't be the same as the one A sends to M. Once the OTP is verified, Alice knows Bob has the OTP, and no one else does.

      The only real way to do a man-in-the-middle attack in this case would be to subvert all communications channels between Alice and Bob.

      And once a first secure channel is initiated, I think you could even be super-super clever and use something like a key verification for future OTP streams. That is, insert into the OTP stream fixed states (rather than quantum superpositions - so you'd send a perfectly left-polarized photon, for instance) at positions determined by previous OTP streams (the dummy portion of the OTP stream. So probably to be safe, triple the OTP length and use one for the encoded message, one for verification, and one for the future keying positions).

      A hypothetical man-in-the-middle has no way of knowing when a photon is supposed to be a fixed state (since he doesn't have the previous OTP) and so he'll send mixed states instead. The fixed states for him will just look like random noise. Yes, sure, afterwards once he sees the full stream, he'll be able to say 'oh, crap, those weren't random...' but on a bit by bit basis, he can't know. On the other end, when they try to verify the key positions, they won't verify, and they'll know that someone sent them a fully-random stream rather than an only partially-random stream.

      Which means unless I'm missing something, all you need is a *first* secure exchange, which could be verified in person. Once that's done, the future communications between Alice and Bob are completely secure and utterly untappable.

      I'm pretty sure quantum key distribution is safe against man-in-the-middle attacks. Inside jobs, however... that's a different story.

  54. Unbreakable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Man in the middle attack. Capture like recepiant and send like sender.

  55. Depends. by jd · · Score: 1
    A man-in-the-middle attack is possible, using your suggested method, which is why quantum entanglement (in which there is no intermediate location) is a better solution. However, it is by no means certain, as quantum cryptography relies on the assumption that messages cannot be blocked - that the MitM can't prevent the original receiver from also getting the message and therefore getting the information that the key had been intercepted.


    Another option is to package the values up into blocks and use a cryptographically authenticating block chaining method. That way, if someone attempts to build their own chain, the chaining method will fail to authenticate correctly. That way, even if a MitM found a way to block reception of the original OTP, the recipient would still know that the key had been intercepted.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  56. It's unbreakable, so you break something else. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    They really are "unbreakable" according to a specific mathematical meaning of that. If (when?) such schemes are broken, they will be broken by exploiting something else.

    This application of QM allows you to exchange data where the laws of physics themselves guarantee that no one but God could eavesdrop on the data in transit without you knowing about it. So they *can* eavesdrop, you'll just know if they do. They can also steal the data before or after it is transmitted (e.g. NSA has the hardware secretly cache all keys sent over it for later recovery, or whatever). The endpoint computers probably aren't unbreakable, although they may be very close if they're made by the NSA or someone. And if you're getting hardware like this, you *ought* to have a good admin, but I digress.

    Okay, so you have this super-ultra good link where you can send data and *know* that no one intercepted it. What now? Well, you have a few options:

    A) Send one-time pad data. This encryption method is perfect--EVERY plaintext of the proper length is a possible decryption of any given ciphertext. And you would be padding the length, anyhow. So long as you use a good random source for the pad's data, you'll be fine. Of course, if you use a random source that's somehow deficient, well... Note that it would be good practice to compress (i.e. zip, 7z, rar, whatever) the data before sending it to increase its entropy. Doing this is good for many reasons and is pretty much always helpful when encrypting things.

    B) Send keys. You can send secret keys and use your favorite normal cipher. Because you know if someone was eavesdropping (and can discard any keys they eavesdropped upon), you will know that the key is secret (unless, of course, an endpoint is compromised). Now, so long as you're using a good cipher here, you'll be fine. Of course, if your cipher is deficient here, you're hosed. One good thing about this is that you can keep making new secret keys, to limit how much damage it does if an adversary breaks your cipher. This is a very helpful thing to do because some attacks require a lot of ciphertext, and you're not putting out all that much ciphertext for them to use to recover your key if the key changes for each message. Suddenly they have a lot of crumbs, when they need a large block, all encrypted with the same key(s).

    C) A little of each. There may be reasons to do both. Maybe you want to send short text messages or small files and these can all be done via a true one time pad, but the large files are more efficient to do via some stream cipher. After all, with a stream cipher you only have to transmit file + a relatively small key, whereas a true OTP requires you to send 2 * file worth of data, the first being the OTP, and the second being file [xor] OTP. And that's neglecting overhead, of course. Normally, you want to do a number of things I'm neglecting here to avoid misc. side channel attacks that could reveal things like how large a message you're sending, *that* you're currently sending a message, etc., which can all leak information.

    After all, if you know that A is asking B whether or not A should do something (which you know via other means) and you saw A transfer the ciphertext ^s@ or possibly ÿÿ it wouldn't take a genius to figure out that one was yes and the other was no with or without an OTP ...

    1. Re:It's unbreakable, so you break something else. by cashdot · · Score: 1
      So they *can* eavesdrop, you'll just know if they do.

      This is not actually true. If one could eavesdrop one could just as well retransmit the original message and therby hide your interception.

      The big difference with quantum versus conventional encription is, that the information is immediately destroyed when you read it "the wrong way", i.e. using the wrong angle for your polarisation filter (in case of photons). This polarisation angle(s) act as some sort of key, it has to be known to the intented receiver. An eavesdropper can guess the key, but only *once*. There is no way to make a backup copy of a quantum state. $.

  57. Re:Journalism 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Parent is splitting hairs. TFA's audience is not people who have taken quantum physics, so it's allowed to "dumb things down" a bit.

    Hint: it-observer.com seems to be geared towards IT middle managers, and the last time I checked, QM wasn't listed as a prerequisite for an MBA.

  58. Excuse me...Troll?! mod parent UP by Unlikely_Hero · · Score: 1

    Why the hell is this modded troll? The poster makes an excellent point. Do you want the government/cartel/whomever to be able to spy on you so perfectly? In a system where they know the second you try to mess with it? I'm really suprised for what passes as a troll around here. Do you want to be watched?
    I sure as hell don't.

    --
    Happiness does not come from having much, but from being attached to little.
  59. Slight change by EvanED · · Score: 1

    I'm going to revoke the force with which I said that. I've read a few links and it seems like MITM attacks are more broadly defined than the impression I had. HOWEVER, I stand by it to the point that usually a MITM attack is what I said:

    Wikipedia lists eavesdropping as a possible MITM attack, but also says "MITM is typically used to refer to active manipulation of the messages, rather than passively eavesdropping."

    Both Network Security by Kaufman, Perlman, and Speciner, and Computer Secuity: Art and Science by Bishop define MITM as the more narrow definition I gave.

    A Blackhat conference paper defines it more broadly, but includes my definition and doesn't include eavesdropping.

  60. Over the internet? by NicenessHimself · · Score: 1

    They use photons to exchange a One Time Pad, using a dedicated point-to-point fibre link. They then use the Internet to transfer the video. This doesn't add up, to my way of thinking. If you have a dedicated point-to-point fibre link, you'd use that for the video. How does their quantum cryptography fare as soon as the fibre link is no longer point-to-point, but is a normal trunk with repeaters and routers and stuff not owned by the two people having the conversation? Now if this was entanglement, well... but I'm equally confused how you distribute your entangled photons in the first place, and how this doesn't hit the age-old key distribution problem??

    1. Re:Over the internet? by Xanthir · · Score: 1

      Even if you have a dedicated fiber link, you can't ever be quite sure that there isn't an eavesdropper. QC uses certain quantum properties to ensure that if someone does eavesdrop on the link, it'll screw up the key that you are transmitting and you'll know. Up a bit, I have a nice detailed explanation of QC that doesn't presuppose any knowledge of quantum stuff. Hopefully it's nice and understandable - my wife hates quantum stuff and was able to understand this easily. Unless and until we invent quantum repeaters, it will be impossible for QC to work on a traditional network - the key transmission requires an unbroken fiber link. Of course, if we do invent quantum repeaters, it renders QC useless - QC is based on every reading changing the stream, which means that any interception will result in an incorrect stream. A quantum repeater, obviously, is a device that can read a stream and retransmit it faithfully.

  61. Change it back to "near" Unbreakable. by Eevee · · Score: 1
    Just because it's quantum doesn't mean it's proof against being intercepted. Sorry about the Google cache, but I don't have access to the original at the moment.
    The accepted wisdom driving the recent surge in quantum-encryption schemes posits that physical laws cannot be violated, and thus the quantum properties of photons offer an absolute level of security to optical networks. But Richard Kuhn, a computer security expert at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (Gaithersburg, Md.), has published a method for defeating several quantum-encryption schemes, although Kuhn's method will not work with the BB84 protocol used in commercial systems.
    It's the implementation of an encryption system that's the key to the real-world security of the system. As of right now, we haven't had enough time to "play" with quantum encryption to know just how well they can be implemented to resist attacks.
  62. Yeah that's what they say by DrYak · · Score: 1
    you have no idea about quantum mechanics.

    And you have no idea about cryptography ;-)

    The whole point of using "quantum mechanics" is just to deliver the cryptographic key in a way that CANNOT be eavesdropped successfully without violating the whole Law of Physic (think equivalent of "This message will self-destruct after reading in 3... 2... 1... Pschiiit!")
    As always said, a whole system is just as secure as the weakest link in the chain.
    If they're using their "New Uber-Secure(r) Quantum(tm) Link" to transmit keys for some stupid rot13-alike cryptographic scheme, there's no doubt the content will be cracked in an incredibly fast time, no matter if the key is unkown.

    As a matter of fact, that what happened to the CSS crypting used in DVDs (no key are used in libdvdcss to crack it), and that's what happened to Enigma at the end of World War II (some ancestrors of computers where used to brute force the code using some clever tricks to reduce the key space)

    If this key-exchange channel is used for video (as the article tells) and the crypto scheme used is AACS as with other future video product (which some already claim to have found way to crack - and are waiting that AACS is deployed before publishing their method) DVD Jon will have a fun time cracking it.
    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:Yeah that's what they say by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should tell Videolan that their libdvdcss doesn't use a key, as their developers clearly think that it does - in fact more than one:

      http://developers.videolan.org/libdvdcss/libdvdcss /doc/html/
      """
      DVDCSS_METHOD: sets the authentication and decryption method that libdvdcss will use to read scrambled discs. Can be one of title, key or disc.

              * key is the default method. libdvdcss will use a set of calculated player keys to try and get the disc key. This can fail if the drive does not recognize any of the player keys.
      """

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  63. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? by RMH101 · · Score: 1

    by the very act of observing quanta, you change them...

  64. MITM attack by ajs318 · · Score: 1

    As far as I can see, Quantum Encryption is still vulnerable to a man-in-the-middle attack, as long as the malicious interloper can also intercept the "secondary channel" over which Alice and Bob compare their notes and the insecure channel over which the final data will be sent. What QKE really relies on is that Alice doesn't know for certain whether Bob will receive any given one of her bits transmitted over the quantum channel as a "zero" or a "one", and so they have to compare notes over a secondary communications channel before anything can be exchanged using the key. What's said over this channel is not the key itself, but the key EORed with random zeros and ones {which can be inferred by Alice or Bob, but nobody else who did not see the bits sent or received}, and so is ordinarily meaningless to anyone trying to eavesdrop. But if Mallory has a suitable receiver like Bob's and transmitter like Alice's, and records whatever he receives from Alice exactly the way Bob is doing, then it should be possible to reconstruct the keys for both legs of the transmission {Alice to Mallory and Mallory to Bob} from what is already known.

    There are a lot of reasons why this would be hard to do, but it's not strictly impossible. And it's exactly the sort of system that's likely to be used where the stakes are high.

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  65. Quantum crypto VS zero knowledge agreement by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    So maybe I'm stupid but heres an obvious question.

    What is the advantage of quantum cryptography over zero knowledge protocols such as SRP?

    There absoultely needs to be some prior 'out of band' knowledge established between 'Bob' and 'Alice' to prevent MITM by a 'Malice' tapping both classical and quantum channels and operating it's own proxy beam splitter...

    so it seems to me that the quantum advantage is reduced to a prior knowledge requirement which makes it a weakest link canceling any advantage of the quantum channel alltogeather. It's just harder to do, not impossible.

  66. Almost... by DrYak · · Score: 1
    Sorry I wasn't clear enough.
    libdvdcss will use a set of calculated player keys

    The keys are calculated. Not stolen.
    - As far as I've heard a few of the first de-css-ing software used cracked keys to decrypt content. They depend on managing to get some keys to work. And were also legally challenged.
    - libdvdcss depends on calculating alone by itself some possible keys. It doesn't matter if the companies using CSS do keep safely their key.

    In one case protecting the key is important. Quantum cryptography helps.
    In the other case it doesn't matter how safe the key is, the algo it self is flawed and can be cracked even without capturing an original key.

    by "no key are used in libdvdcss to crack it" I meant no _stolen_ key is ever used inside. It wasn't necessary to steal a key to unlock content. Un breakable key transmission channel is irrevelant.

    I hope I'm clearer now.
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