The Future of IT in America?

tomocoo asks: "As a young person considering various choices for the future career I'd like to pursue, IT and computer science continually reappear near the top of the list of fields I'm interested in. In fact, one of my only hesitations is the suspected ease by which programming and other related tasks can be sent to other countries for pennies on the dollar. How much of a threat do the readers of Slashdot feel outsourcing is to the American programmer? Should I and other young people be pursuing something more specialized or have I simply been watching too much CNN?"

Comments

There will be a job for you

[dracocat]

I have been hearing about the doom of the industry for a very long time. The fact is, is that IT and Computer Science follow a cycle.

Will there be a high paying job waiting for you the moment you graduate? That is impossible to predict, but long term you are almost assured to find a healthy career waiting for you.

Proof that the offshoring is an overexagerated issue? Look at average salaries of graduates. They may not be as high as you want them, but compared with any other fields they are consistently towards the top. Even now, with so much media attention focusing on the downturn in the tech economy, I doubt you would receive very much sympathy for having to receive a starting salary of over 51k. (Starting Salaries)

Anyone complaining about the lack of jobs and low pay in the industry is an anomaly. I am not saying it is their fault, but there will be people that simply have bad luck finding a job no matter what field you look at.

In short, the reason there is so much noise is simply because some people have unrealistic expectations of both finding a job and the pay they will receive. Take that away and what you have is an industry on a whole that is actually more healthy than a lot of others.

All of that being said, it is always better to specialize if your goal is more money. Almost any job will base your pay based on your expertise in the area they are looking for. If a job is looking for a C# developer and you have a little knowledge of everything then you will get paid for having a little knowledge of C#. If on the other hand you are a Java expert and have been doing nothing but Java for the previous 5 years you may not get that C# position at all, but when you find a company looking for someone with knowledge of Java you can definitely expect a higher pay.

Re:There will be a job for you

[mcrbids]

I'll be glib. I'll be gleeful. And I'll be right.

Make your own damned job. It's the American way. Start your own business, hang a shingle, make some sales, do some cold calls. It hurts at first, contracts don't come with a 401k. But, pretty soon, you get the whole customer-relations thing figured out. Then, not too horribly long after that, you get the whole tax/accountant/bank thing figured out.

Next thing you know, you're swamped with highly paid work! You've stretched your wings, you've gone out, you landed a few key contracts, and suddenly, you have more work than you can do.

So then you figure out hiring and firing. It's a painful lesson, as you often really like the people you're firing. It can be very expensive, if you miscalculate and pay people to make up stuff to "look busy". But, if you come even close to getting it right, it pays, too, and sometimes quite nicely.

If you're half as skilled as you make out to be, you can follow this path, and make better money than your graduate peers in as little as 5-10 years. You can be independently wealthy (retired, never work again) in as little as 20 years.

That's the American way.

Do you want to be the kind of person who mopes when you can't afford your own private plane for at another year? Do you want to be the kind of person who ends up paying more in "recreation" than most people earn in their jobs? Do you long for the stability of knowing you can never be fired, because you're not only the boss, but the owner of the business?

Take your skills, and find a way to market them. A business license costs around $50 in my home town of Chico, CA. A fictitious name statement and accompanying bank account can be had for around $300 most places in California. Everything after that is up to you.

When you take the time to dissect business models to see which works for you, you grow in ways you can't easily convey. When you shoulder the responsibility of keeping the show running, even when your cashflow is bleeding red, you become a bigger, more capable, and more powerful person. When you run the show, you become a bigger, better, more capable, more responsible person in ways that years of college can't even begin to approximate.

I strongly recommend that you turn your frustration into success, and turn your own personal lemon juice into sweet, refreshing lemonade!

Once you've done this, the whole idea of a "job" just seems... well... stupid...

Re:There will be a job for you

[FredFnord]

I'll be glib. I'll be gleeful. And I'll be right.

Glib, and gleeful. And right for you. And a bit, sorry to say it, self-centered, because you assume that something that would work for you would work for anyone. There are people who are comfortable doing this sort of thing and people who aren't. And if you aren't, you're not going to succeed at it. And of course, the possibility of doing this sort of thing depends on not too many other people doing it.

Make your own damned job. It's the American way. Start your own business, hang a shingle, make some sales, do some cold calls. It hurts at first, contracts don't come with a 401k. But, pretty soon, you get the whole customer-relations thing figured out. Then, not too horribly long after that, you get the whole tax/accountant/bank thing figured out.

If you're lucky. And you're cut out for that kind of thing. And you're lucky. And you're not in a market that's oversaturated with people who can do what you can do. And you're happy to work fifteen hour days, seven days a week, at the beginning at least, because that's what it's going to take to satisfy some of your more demanding customers. And you have enough money to get you through the first year. And you don't accidentally alienate your first employer though not doing something they assume you will know to do, because you're not experienced. (Pleading inexperience doesn't work; they only want people who are experienced.) And you don't get a company that signs a contract and then doesn't pay you for eight months after you finish the job, when you can't really afford the time and money to sue the hell out of them. And you don't get companies that make you give them a cost up front and then continually add features while you're working. (I lost two clients that way, because I told them I wasn't going to put in extra work that wasn't in my contract for no extra money, and they said, 'Well, then, I'll find someone who will.')

And the sorriest thing is, you only get a chance to run into those problems at all if you're lucky, or at least not unlucky.

It's really the smugness and superiority that drive me nuts. 'It was right for me, obviously it's right for everyone!' I've tried it. It's hard, it's nasty, and it's not a situation that fits every personality type. I made it okay for a couple of years, but I was delighted to return to a job where I was working 40 hours a week for decent pay and had health insurance that couldn't be cancelled (three times) for no reason other than a single, low-cost, low-mantenance health problem. I like to have a social life that doesn't require me to choose between it and sleep on any given day. I like to have coworkers to interact with, and to ask when I have a problem, and to go out to lunch with. And God, do I hate billing.

Perhaps this is the business model of the future: work 15 hours a day every day with no health insurance and no guarantee that you'll actually be paid before you starve to death or else you won't have a job at all. If it is, I will probably live through it for as long as I decide it's worth living through. But don't try to sell it to me as some kind of goddamned paradise because I know what hell looks like.

-fred

Yeah, too much CNN

[RunFatBoy.net]

You're way too caught up in picking a career by the "current market trend". If you're great at what you do, there will always be a market for your skill set.

If the current trend of outsourcing has you scared, what about other adverse situations? What about the next recession; are you going to run back to school and become a CPA? I'm suspect that you have a deep love for programming. When you love development, you feel it in your bones; you think about problems on your lunch break, you stay up until 3am to get that last bug worked out. If you don't have this sort of passion for creative logistics, then maybe you should reconsider other options (because you're likely to get burned out fairly quickly).

Jim http://www.runfatboy.net/ -- A workout plan that doesn't feel like homework.

Re:Yeah, too much CNN

[Stiletto]

If you're great at what you do, there will always be a market for your skill set.

Tell that to the great buggy-whip manufacturers.

Re:Yeah, too much CNN

[rolfwind]

I don't know, they might have switched to BD/SM products;)

Up, not down

[Marlow the Irelander]

As I understand it, IT employment in the US is increasing, not decreasing; you'll have a better chance if you develop skills in things like project management rather than just being a code monkey.

Re:Up, not down

[GoofyBoy]

As the AC clearly points out, you need more than just coding skills to stay employed. You also need interpersonal skills.

Young People.

[sglider]

I am one of those young people. I'm finishing up a stint in the Army, and going back to finish my final year of my BS in Computer Information Systems. ( I was mobilized during my senior year of college.)

I firmly believe that there is plenty out there for me -- but not in something like programming, rather I believe my talent lies in being a Systems Analyst for a business, or something both technical and managerial in nature.

Sure, the off shore folks have us beat when it comes to programminng, no doubt about that -- but that's only a problem if you want to be just a programmer.

They still need people to lead and manage these teams of programmers, and perhaps that's where the value of the American IT professional is.

Re:Young People.

[ClamIAm]

Sure, the off shore folks have us beat when it comes to programminng, no doubt about that ...

Sure, managers and PHB-types might think it's a great idea to outsource programming. By doing this, you can get a similar-quality "product" for a much lower cost. But it's not all roses and cherub farts.

Programming is hard. There have been countless times where a project has not met the needs it was supposed to, and this often has to do with poor communication. Now throw in a few thousand miles difference from the customer and the coders, a time difference and possibly a language barrier. Is this going to make it easier to get what you need? The chance for miscommunication here goes up a huge amount. What also gets worse is turnaround time. The factors I've mentioned will definitely slow down some parts of the development.

Re:Young People.

[El Cubano]

I am one of those young people. I'm finishing up a stint in the Army, and going back to finish my final year of my BS in Computer Information Systems. ( I was mobilized during my senior year of college.)

You have a couple of serious advantages that your peers (other recent college grads) simply don't have:

• Employers know that you are disciplined (that is a given based on military experience)
• They know you are already well trained (it doesn't matter at what) and apt to learn since you had to go through a good amount of training for your MOS (unless you happen to be a cook or truck driver)
• You probably have a security clearance (even if it is just a Secret-level clearance)
• You are probably more mature (in terms of age, where the people graduating with you are likely 22-23 years old, you are probably 25-26 years old), which makes a difference in how potential employers view you

In summary, you have nothing to worry about. Same with others in similar situation to yours. The moral of the story, if you want to be better off in the job market, consider a 3-4 year hitch in the military. Even if you are not in IT, the added experience will be a huge benefit and establish a track record that you can show to future employers.

IT.

[Anonymous Coward]

IT: run as far away as fast and as you fucking possibly can.

If it's what you want to do, do it.

[deanj]

Don't worry about what CNN is saying. They're not programmers. If you're a decent programmer, you'll always have a job.

Here's the bottom line, though:

If programming is something you love to do, then do it. If it's just something you want to do because you've heard it'll earn you "big bucks", don't.

Not that you can't make a good living...you can. It's just that unless you love something, you shouldn't go into it. You might be able to handle it for 10 or even 20 years, but unless your heart is really into it, you'll regret it long term.

Good luck.

Learn what you're good at.

[crhylove]

And you'll be useful to somebody. Get really good at something, and you'll be useful to everybody. Almost doesn't matter what field. Whatever it is you REALLY enjoy, there is a way to make money at it, and a way to make yourself valuable in that field. In fact, if you REALLY enjoy it, create something new and market THAT. That's the way to make real money. I don't know anybody who makes a lot of money solely based on their education credentials. I'm sure they exist, but that breed is becoming rarer and rarer.

rhY

Re:Learn what you're good at.

[eddeye]

Whatever it is you REALLY enjoy, there is a way to make money at it, and a way to make yourself valuable in that field.

If that were true, we'd all be pornstars.

You don't want Computer Science

[Heretik]

if your primary concern is writing software and getting a job making money doing so. You want Software Engineering.

I suggest you do some research into what Computer Science actually is before assuming you'd like to go to University for it, because if you think you'll spend the majority of your time programming, you'll be unpleasantly surprised (The obscenely high first-year dropout rates of Computer Science programs are due mostly to this misconception)

Re:You don't want Computer Science

[NitsujTPU]

I don't know about that.

I'm getting a PhD in Computer Science in the Fall. I earned by B.S. in 2001, and started up as a software engineer at a defense contractor after that. Right now, I'm a researcher at an Ivy League university's Computer Science department. I write software, and lots of it, to support my research.

Largely, Computer Science can be divided into:

Systems
Theory
and
*Wildcard (but, usually people say "Artificial Intelligence" here)

As for undergrad CS, I'd say it's mostly programming and theory, with some application specific stuff thrown in (databases, artificial intelligence, robotics, games, graphics).

My first year was entirely programming, and, that's what incoming freshmen can expect here. I think that what drove people out is that it wasn't networking, configuring computers, "IT" stuff. They also didn't like that it was hard. They were "good with computers," but that didn't make them programmers. The first couple classes are weed-outs to make sure that they won't hate programming too much their sophomore year and feel stuck when they're in their junior year, having only done the requirements to declare for computer science, and need a whole mess of classes to jump into Mechanical Engineering or Chemical Engineering.

Most of the people that I know who majored in Computer Science became programmers when they got out of school, and I know relatively few schools that offer "software engineering" as its own major.

I say this with all due respect to you, but, seriously, I don't think this is very good advice at all.

Re:Learn a new language?

[Keruo]

Parent was bit trollish, but he has a point though..
Asia is currently worlds fastest growing economical area, and knowing how to speak japanese, mandarin or hindi might be rather useful.

Sigh

[NitsujTPU]

Do this with your future: What you want to do with it.

Do you really feel so tied down that you have to choose your career based on current trends? The trends won't last through when you finish your degree. Do you think that people who started their BS during the dot com boom made a dime of the millions that people made hawking their crap?

Seriously, pick a career based on what you want to do. You'll be a happier person for it.

Re:High real estate + low wages == collapse

[NitsujTPU]

Yeah, but if you're going to buy into that, the safest thing to do is to move out into the mountains, grow your own food, and have a really trusty shotgun. That, or move to Canada.

Make sure you can write.

[daeg]

The best advice I can give you is have stunning writing skills. You will be writing every day. E-mail, IM, proposals, agendas, reports and presentations are part of any job, even if they are a small part. Some companies don't care if you have good writing skills, but no business will complain if your skills are higher than they want.

don't do information systel.ms

[Gramberto]

Computer Science, computer engineering, and electrical engineering are far more powerful degrees. They are also much hard than IS. I took some IS classes to learn some new things at a local state college. I thought the classes were a joke. The classes were easy. There was no low level theory at all. No you will never directly use the theory, but if you understand the concepts its much easier to grab a book and learn the practical stuff on your own. The same school has very hard computer science courses.

Even if you want to be a network engineer. You will learn ALOT more with a computer science degree. You can then do a minor in information systems and take a few classes that you are interested in.

Computer engineering is probably the most valuable to employers. The reason is that the barrier to entry is higher. For a network administrator or a programmer you can learn it without school. You really can't learn computer engineering without school.

Re:don't do information systel.ms

[joekampf]

No, most of us with our CS degrees are not creating the next processor, or the next programming language or OS. However, what I have found to be invaluable, and what makes ME more valuable than the masses of IS majors or even the offshore/inshore cookie cutter programmers out there is that I understand what is going on under the covers. So when I decide to use a feature, or create a system, I'll know how it will scale, what the implication are when the damn thing is running on something other than my desktop. I can't tell you how many developers out there have no idea about things like, threads, transactions, I/O, networks. What can go wrong when those things break or are not handled right and what that means to the system they are developing. Thus you get crap that has to be restarted every day, or isn't robust.

Go for it

[Derkec]

If what you're interested in is computer programming - go for it. Money magazine just ranked 'Software Developer' it's top job largely because of expected growth in the field. That said, be sure that you can write and speak well. Your key advantages over someone in India should be:
1) Timezone
2) More experience (developers there are often promoted to management too quickly)
3) Superior command of English (they'll speak it, you need to do so better)
4) Assorted cultural advantages

You will need to be able to talk to people and sort out requirements to be more valuable. The guy in India just can't sit across the table from a user of whatever you are making and discuss options, quickly estimate 'lots of effort' or 'pretty easy', and help the users tell you what to create.

At the end of the day, you'll still need to be able to write code, but you'll need to do a whole lot more as well. These days, I'm thinking that the 'whole lot more' may be more fun, but that's just me.

As for the guy who joked 'speak hindi', I'd point out that there are dozens of languages in India and when Indians from different parts of the country speak to eachother, they usually do so in English.

Supplemtal Computer Science.

[jellomizer]

I would suggest that you take a Supplemental Major/Minor with your Computer Science Degree. Things like Computer Science/(Business, Engineering (Non Computer Engineering), Physical Sciences, etc...) That way your skills are targeted beyond just a Programmer but to a professional who is useful to your future employer on multiple levels. You can easily outsource a Programmer, but a Programmer who understands something else the business needs is much harder.

CNN and College

[pete-classic]

It's laudable that you are concerned about college, but you have the rest of your life to worry about job security. On the other hand the days in which you may bang 17-year-olds are numbered. Get your priorities straight.

-Peter

Jobs in the Free Market?

[reporter]

The free exchange of goods and services (including labor) between the United States and India damages how the (relatively) free market operates in the United States. The (relatively) non-free market in India has destroyed much of its economy. The majority of Indians are unemployed or underemployed. Although the news reports describing the tech boom in India is accurate, that boom is largely restricted to the tech sector. The remainder of the Indian economy is in terrible shape. Indian government intervention in that economy generates hordes of desperate labor that flood into the United States or into the Indian tech sector.

The final result is that, due to the free flow of services (including labor in the form of outsourcing) between the United States and India, Indian government intervention now indirectly damages the operation of the American free market (for high-tech labor), suppressing wages and diminishing working conditions.

You see a similar phenomenon in the unskilled-labor market. Mexican government intervention in the Mexican economy generates hordes of desperate labor that floods the American market for unskilled labor. The presence of Mexican illegal aliens in the American market suppresses wages and diminishes working conditions as American employers exploit a nearly limitless supply of desperate workers willing to work for slave wages in dangerous or grueling conditions.

No job in America is safe from this destruction to the free market.

You should select the job doing the kind of work that most interests you. In your spare time on the weekend, stay abreast of international news. Vote for populist politicians who support free trade between the United States and only other (relatively) free markets like Canada and Japan, not Mexico nor India. Support policies that terminate trade between the United States and (relatively) non-free markets like Mexico or India.

Also support policies that compel Washington to aggressively intervene in both the Mexican government and the Indian government. The nature of the intervention should be at least as aggressive as the Mexican meddling (by Vicente Fox and his corrupt ilk) in the American Congress. Washington should eliminate Mexican politicians and Indian politicians who promote the economic destruction that has generated hordes of desperate labor fleeing to the United States.

Re:Jobs in the Free Market?

[jcr]

The (relatively) non-free market in India has destroyed much of its economy.

I think you've missed the real story here, which is that India's economy is improving at a drastic rate as India gets over its traditional habit of trying to follow the Soviet central-planning model. High tech isn't the only area where the difference is dramatic. India was unable to feed itself only about fifteen years ago, and today is a major food exporter to the rest of Asia, for example.

-jcr

Re:Jobs in the Free Market?

[say]

No job in America is safe from this destruction to the free market.

This must be the least insightful comment on globalization I've ever seen. What constitutes a free market seems... vague. Do you really have any proof that government intervention in Canada is any less than in Mexico?

Here's a mind bending newsflash for you: The difference between the countries you want to trade with and the ones you don't want to trade with is that the non-tradables are _poor_, while the tradables are _rich_. You don't want free markets. You want protectionism, where the rich world is allowed to keep its benefits by keeping the poor away through immoral trade barrier.

So it isn't the free market that is being destroyed in the US, it is the protectionistic privileges. That's the true essence of the free market: it makes sure that cheapest (per quality unit) is preferred. And it's no way the US can remain cheapest without dropping some of its (relative) riches.

Re:Starting Salaries

[Brandybuck]

The starting salary only applies for those graduates who get jobs in the first place.

Having recently interviewed several candidates on campus, I'm starting to see why they're not getting hired. Most are unmotivated, but a lack of income will soon fix that. The real problem is that they don't have any real world skills. A university CS/CE graduate should either have enough hand-on programming experience to know which end of a compiler goes up, or enough theoretical knowledge to know the difference between the basic data structures. I'm not getting that from the candidates I'm interviewing.

Unless the universities straighten up, I think the future of university graduates is an extra year at DeVry/ITT just to get the skills to be employable.

Do what you love

[ggambett]

Do what you love. Be the best. The rest just happens.

Wake up and smell the coffee!

[firedragon852]

As someone who has worked in both the Silicon Valley in the US and the Far East, I can only say that I haven't looked back the day when I stopped hiring US software engineers and moved the development center to China. For companies like Oracle etc, what they are doing now is stop hiring in the US but continue to increase their headcount in India and China. The reason is simple: US IT staff salaries are just too high to be competitive. I can get the Chinese engineers to produce the same code for 10% of the cost. Then when you look at the skills that the US software engineers possess apart from the usual technical skills, they are just pathetic. For instance, I need all my software engineering staff to be able to read and write English and Chinese. That rules out 99% of the resumes I received in the US. When I started hiring in China, 100% of the local candidates can read and write English (though not perfect). The reality is it is only going to get worse for the US IT staff.

Think about transitions too

[eddeye]

Remember that an IT degree doesn't necessarily limit you to a job in the IT field. Besides the many jobs open to anyone with a college degree, you can use your technical background to move into other fields. Combine it with biochemistry for a job in the pharmaceutical industry. A solid math background is attractive to financial companies. Physics, geology, climatology, accounting, library science -- the list is virtually endless. There will always be options available to people willing and able to use their technical background outside of IT and programming.

I went from an MS in computer science to software developer to teaching cs to law school. Law is an incredibly broad field and technical skills will serve you well in any area, not just intellectual property.

Re:Learn a new language?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not going to say a word about irony here. Not a word.

Because I try to be act good behavior on /.

Re:Starting Salaries

[jcr]

A university CS/CE graduate should either have enough hand-on programming experience to know which end of a compiler goes up, or enough theoretical knowledge to know the difference between the basic data structures. I'm not getting that from the candidates I'm interviewing.

I find that the quality of applicants varies enormously, even from the same school. I do see rather a lot of "grade inflation", but new CSEE graduates who had a 3.0 or better GPA are usually at least trainable.

What I try to seek out is whether a newly-minted CS degree holder likes the field, or just got steered to it by a guidance counselor. If the interest is there, the talent can generally be trained in.

-jcr

Re:Learn a new language?

[Evilest Doer]

Chinese and Japanese will be far more useful.

I would say that Chinese would be the best one to learn overall. The Chinese I have known tend to take it as a compliment if you speak even some Chinese.

The Japanese I have known seem to be offended, even if your Japanese is perfect. Plus, if your resume does not have you in the precise little required sub-group, they won't even consider you for a particular job. And I'm not even getting into the whole racism issue. The Chinese aren't perfect, but I've been treated a damn sight better by them than any of the Japanese I have ever dealt with.

***note to mods: This is not meant as a troll. I am simply explaining my own personal experience...