The Future of IT in America?

tomocoo asks: "As a young person considering various choices for the future career I'd like to pursue, IT and computer science continually reappear near the top of the list of fields I'm interested in. In fact, one of my only hesitations is the suspected ease by which programming and other related tasks can be sent to other countries for pennies on the dollar. How much of a threat do the readers of Slashdot feel outsourcing is to the American programmer? Should I and other young people be pursuing something more specialized or have I simply been watching too much CNN?"

Comments

There will be a job for you

[dracocat]

I have been hearing about the doom of the industry for a very long time. The fact is, is that IT and Computer Science follow a cycle.

Will there be a high paying job waiting for you the moment you graduate? That is impossible to predict, but long term you are almost assured to find a healthy career waiting for you.

Proof that the offshoring is an overexagerated issue? Look at average salaries of graduates. They may not be as high as you want them, but compared with any other fields they are consistently towards the top. Even now, with so much media attention focusing on the downturn in the tech economy, I doubt you would receive very much sympathy for having to receive a starting salary of over 51k. (Starting Salaries)

Anyone complaining about the lack of jobs and low pay in the industry is an anomaly. I am not saying it is their fault, but there will be people that simply have bad luck finding a job no matter what field you look at.

In short, the reason there is so much noise is simply because some people have unrealistic expectations of both finding a job and the pay they will receive. Take that away and what you have is an industry on a whole that is actually more healthy than a lot of others.

All of that being said, it is always better to specialize if your goal is more money. Almost any job will base your pay based on your expertise in the area they are looking for. If a job is looking for a C# developer and you have a little knowledge of everything then you will get paid for having a little knowledge of C#. If on the other hand you are a Java expert and have been doing nothing but Java for the previous 5 years you may not get that C# position at all, but when you find a company looking for someone with knowledge of Java you can definitely expect a higher pay.

Re:There will be a job for you

[Jerim]

I agree. IT is no diffirent than any other sector. The problem is that the IT industry went through this idealic phase where anyone who knew how to turn on a computer was making over $50k a year as a computer programmer. So yes, compared to the 90's the industry would appear to be in a slump. But if you look at the 90's as being the result of stupidity that should never have existed, you will see that the IT industry is just like any other sector. You can make a living in whatever industry you want.

The difference being your expectations. If you are expecting a fantasy land of 20 companies offering you $70k jobs the day you graduate, then you are stuck in the heydays of the 90's. Do what you love knowing that you will always have a job somewhere in the IT industry.

Re:There will be a job for you

[Triode]

"...long term you are almost assured to find a healthy career waiting for you."

Don't belive that for a second. I have a BS in EECE/CompSci, MS in Physics, and took
all of the courses to get a Ph.D. in Computer Eng. I have 15 years unix experience,
10 years hands on sysadmin experience, can design and write software, and in fact
hardware at the device level.

When I was in the Ph.D. program, people from other countries were getting the internships,
job offers, etc. The four (out of almost 200) grad students who were "local" to this
country did not get jack, myself included. I was told by a friend of mine who went to
work at Intel that they were not hiring US citizens, as it costs too damn much.

So there, I said it. I was born here, went to college here, gained expeience here...
And 1.5 years and 1000s of resumes (with college degrees and experience and all) later,
I am still without employment in the US.

Like the other comment mentioned, knowing a second language may not be a bad thing right now.

Re:There will be a job for you

[DerekLyons]

So there, I said it. I was born here, went to college here, gained expeience here...

And 1.5 years and 1000s of resumes (with college degrees and experience and all) later, I am still without employment in the US.

Of course your mishmash of experience and lack of a clear focus couldn't possibly be part of the problem. (What exactly kind of work are you looking for? Your degree indicates CS, yet the experience you cite is IT.)

Re:There will be a job for you

[mcrbids]

I'll be glib. I'll be gleeful. And I'll be right.

Make your own damned job. It's the American way. Start your own business, hang a shingle, make some sales, do some cold calls. It hurts at first, contracts don't come with a 401k. But, pretty soon, you get the whole customer-relations thing figured out. Then, not too horribly long after that, you get the whole tax/accountant/bank thing figured out.

Next thing you know, you're swamped with highly paid work! You've stretched your wings, you've gone out, you landed a few key contracts, and suddenly, you have more work than you can do.

So then you figure out hiring and firing. It's a painful lesson, as you often really like the people you're firing. It can be very expensive, if you miscalculate and pay people to make up stuff to "look busy". But, if you come even close to getting it right, it pays, too, and sometimes quite nicely.

If you're half as skilled as you make out to be, you can follow this path, and make better money than your graduate peers in as little as 5-10 years. You can be independently wealthy (retired, never work again) in as little as 20 years.

That's the American way.

Do you want to be the kind of person who mopes when you can't afford your own private plane for at another year? Do you want to be the kind of person who ends up paying more in "recreation" than most people earn in their jobs? Do you long for the stability of knowing you can never be fired, because you're not only the boss, but the owner of the business?

Take your skills, and find a way to market them. A business license costs around $50 in my home town of Chico, CA. A fictitious name statement and accompanying bank account can be had for around $300 most places in California. Everything after that is up to you.

When you take the time to dissect business models to see which works for you, you grow in ways you can't easily convey. When you shoulder the responsibility of keeping the show running, even when your cashflow is bleeding red, you become a bigger, more capable, and more powerful person. When you run the show, you become a bigger, better, more capable, more responsible person in ways that years of college can't even begin to approximate.

I strongly recommend that you turn your frustration into success, and turn your own personal lemon juice into sweet, refreshing lemonade!

Once you've done this, the whole idea of a "job" just seems... well... stupid...

Re:There will be a job for you

[Michael Petrov]

I completely agree with your take on this job "crisis" - and I am an actual example of how it can be done!

I had a passion for programming since I was 10 years old and as other posters have said, that makes all the difference. I have been working independently in the industry for only a year now - my work consists of a wide variety of programming: C++ development, web programming work (PHP / MySQL), and other programming related work. At this time I do not have a formal education and I was never even asked for it throughout my relatively short career - when you independently do contract work, credentials become irrelevant. Starting a year ago doing a lot of monkey programming to increase my actual programming skills was a great way to learn the new technologies and gain practical experience, the pay was at that time relatively low ($10-$20 per hour). It has then grown into more interesting work, and now I'm getting consistently paid $60 / hour and more.

I am not implying that this path is easy to take: there are countless late nights, constant weekend work, and it's at times interfering with my studies. MY point is that it took some effort, but my passion for programming did the rest. I am constantly developing my own side projects to gain passive income, reading marketing books, and improving my investment skills. I am proud to say that I accomplished all that between the ages 16-18 - so my advice for the original poster would be to take action and start a business. I am currently 18, therefore in September I will be going into a top Canadian University for Computer Science. I decided to try getting a formal education - I am not going to University to become employable, but merely to gain some new knowledge and take many business courses. Therefore working in North America within the CS industry can definitely be done - but you have to become the one outsourcing the work or hiring local workers.

Once you've done this, the whole idea of a "job" just seems... well... stupid... I completely agree with your take on this - currently all my peers are being brainwashed to "get an education and a safe secure job". When I hear that line, especially combined with job stability - I merely laugh and take note of who could be employable for a minimum secure wage. If you want to live out "The American Dream" - then just do what other great people did: work hard and learn skills in all areas (accounting, investments, programming, selling, marketing).

Re:There will be a job for you

[FredFnord]

I'll be glib. I'll be gleeful. And I'll be right.

Glib, and gleeful. And right for you. And a bit, sorry to say it, self-centered, because you assume that something that would work for you would work for anyone. There are people who are comfortable doing this sort of thing and people who aren't. And if you aren't, you're not going to succeed at it. And of course, the possibility of doing this sort of thing depends on not too many other people doing it.

Make your own damned job. It's the American way. Start your own business, hang a shingle, make some sales, do some cold calls. It hurts at first, contracts don't come with a 401k. But, pretty soon, you get the whole customer-relations thing figured out. Then, not too horribly long after that, you get the whole tax/accountant/bank thing figured out.

If you're lucky. And you're cut out for that kind of thing. And you're lucky. And you're not in a market that's oversaturated with people who can do what you can do. And you're happy to work fifteen hour days, seven days a week, at the beginning at least, because that's what it's going to take to satisfy some of your more demanding customers. And you have enough money to get you through the first year. And you don't accidentally alienate your first employer though not doing something they assume you will know to do, because you're not experienced. (Pleading inexperience doesn't work; they only want people who are experienced.) And you don't get a company that signs a contract and then doesn't pay you for eight months after you finish the job, when you can't really afford the time and money to sue the hell out of them. And you don't get companies that make you give them a cost up front and then continually add features while you're working. (I lost two clients that way, because I told them I wasn't going to put in extra work that wasn't in my contract for no extra money, and they said, 'Well, then, I'll find someone who will.')

And the sorriest thing is, you only get a chance to run into those problems at all if you're lucky, or at least not unlucky.

It's really the smugness and superiority that drive me nuts. 'It was right for me, obviously it's right for everyone!' I've tried it. It's hard, it's nasty, and it's not a situation that fits every personality type. I made it okay for a couple of years, but I was delighted to return to a job where I was working 40 hours a week for decent pay and had health insurance that couldn't be cancelled (three times) for no reason other than a single, low-cost, low-mantenance health problem. I like to have a social life that doesn't require me to choose between it and sleep on any given day. I like to have coworkers to interact with, and to ask when I have a problem, and to go out to lunch with. And God, do I hate billing.

Perhaps this is the business model of the future: work 15 hours a day every day with no health insurance and no guarantee that you'll actually be paid before you starve to death or else you won't have a job at all. If it is, I will probably live through it for as long as I decide it's worth living through. But don't try to sell it to me as some kind of goddamned paradise because I know what hell looks like.

-fred

Yeah, too much CNN

[RunFatBoy.net]

You're way too caught up in picking a career by the "current market trend". If you're great at what you do, there will always be a market for your skill set.

If the current trend of outsourcing has you scared, what about other adverse situations? What about the next recession; are you going to run back to school and become a CPA? I'm suspect that you have a deep love for programming. When you love development, you feel it in your bones; you think about problems on your lunch break, you stay up until 3am to get that last bug worked out. If you don't have this sort of passion for creative logistics, then maybe you should reconsider other options (because you're likely to get burned out fairly quickly).

Jim http://www.runfatboy.net/ -- A workout plan that doesn't feel like homework.

Re:Yeah, too much CNN

[Stiletto]

If you're great at what you do, there will always be a market for your skill set.

Tell that to the great buggy-whip manufacturers.

Re:Yeah, too much CNN

[rolfwind]

I don't know, they might have switched to BD/SM products;)

Re:Yeah, too much CNN

[wenchmagnet]

Tell that to the great buggy-whip manufacturers.

If a buggy-whip maker was gifted with working with leather he could just as easily move on and start making car/coach seats.

You have to be flexible - the world changes. Keep you skills current - there is room in every field for the truly gifted.

Up, not down

[Marlow the Irelander]

As I understand it, IT employment in the US is increasing, not decreasing; you'll have a better chance if you develop skills in things like project management rather than just being a code monkey.

Re:Up, not down

[GoofyBoy]

As the AC clearly points out, you need more than just coding skills to stay employed. You also need interpersonal skills.

Young People.

[sglider]

I am one of those young people. I'm finishing up a stint in the Army, and going back to finish my final year of my BS in Computer Information Systems. ( I was mobilized during my senior year of college.)

I firmly believe that there is plenty out there for me -- but not in something like programming, rather I believe my talent lies in being a Systems Analyst for a business, or something both technical and managerial in nature.

Sure, the off shore folks have us beat when it comes to programminng, no doubt about that -- but that's only a problem if you want to be just a programmer.

They still need people to lead and manage these teams of programmers, and perhaps that's where the value of the American IT professional is.

Re:Young People.

[ClamIAm]

Sure, the off shore folks have us beat when it comes to programminng, no doubt about that ...

Sure, managers and PHB-types might think it's a great idea to outsource programming. By doing this, you can get a similar-quality "product" for a much lower cost. But it's not all roses and cherub farts.

Programming is hard. There have been countless times where a project has not met the needs it was supposed to, and this often has to do with poor communication. Now throw in a few thousand miles difference from the customer and the coders, a time difference and possibly a language barrier. Is this going to make it easier to get what you need? The chance for miscommunication here goes up a huge amount. What also gets worse is turnaround time. The factors I've mentioned will definitely slow down some parts of the development.

Re:Young People.

[El Cubano]

I am one of those young people. I'm finishing up a stint in the Army, and going back to finish my final year of my BS in Computer Information Systems. ( I was mobilized during my senior year of college.)

You have a couple of serious advantages that your peers (other recent college grads) simply don't have:

• Employers know that you are disciplined (that is a given based on military experience)
• They know you are already well trained (it doesn't matter at what) and apt to learn since you had to go through a good amount of training for your MOS (unless you happen to be a cook or truck driver)
• You probably have a security clearance (even if it is just a Secret-level clearance)
• You are probably more mature (in terms of age, where the people graduating with you are likely 22-23 years old, you are probably 25-26 years old), which makes a difference in how potential employers view you

In summary, you have nothing to worry about. Same with others in similar situation to yours. The moral of the story, if you want to be better off in the job market, consider a 3-4 year hitch in the military. Even if you are not in IT, the added experience will be a huge benefit and establish a track record that you can show to future employers.

From a Services Perspective..

[beheaderaswp]

Well, my experience has been that offshoring has had little impact on my business, which is security, deployment, and maintenance of internet facing computers.

I do a little coding. Some stays in house, some gets GPLd.

But from a services perspective, most of my clients have migrated to my company because we don't have tier 1 tech support, we have engineers- and our customers *hate* doing business with a company that offshores their support or engineering staff.

Every single client I have is a refugee from a services company with offshoring. Every Single One. They pay more... some times a lot more... for the services we provide. But we are also a lot more accountable to them.

FWIW- I've been successful in making a good living by being the opposite of the offshoring trend. But I think to make this work in the market place you have to run your own little business rather than seek employment from someone else.

On the down side- prepare to be awoken at 4:30am by a client calling your cell phone... because you have the shift... and both of your other engineers are in the Bahamas or Canada vacationing.

IT.

[Anonymous Coward]

IT: run as far away as fast and as you fucking possibly can.

If it's what you want to do, do it.

[deanj]

Don't worry about what CNN is saying. They're not programmers. If you're a decent programmer, you'll always have a job.

Here's the bottom line, though:

If programming is something you love to do, then do it. If it's just something you want to do because you've heard it'll earn you "big bucks", don't.

Not that you can't make a good living...you can. It's just that unless you love something, you shouldn't go into it. You might be able to handle it for 10 or even 20 years, but unless your heart is really into it, you'll regret it long term.

Good luck.

Re:If it's what you want to do, do it.

[Hao Wu]

If programming is something you love to do, then do it. If it's just something you want to do because you've heard it'll earn you "big bucks", don't.

By the same token, don't confuse "programming" with "playing computer games 21 hours a day".

Learn what you're good at.

[crhylove]

And you'll be useful to somebody. Get really good at something, and you'll be useful to everybody. Almost doesn't matter what field. Whatever it is you REALLY enjoy, there is a way to make money at it, and a way to make yourself valuable in that field. In fact, if you REALLY enjoy it, create something new and market THAT. That's the way to make real money. I don't know anybody who makes a lot of money solely based on their education credentials. I'm sure they exist, but that breed is becoming rarer and rarer.

rhY

Re:Learn what you're good at.

[eddeye]

Whatever it is you REALLY enjoy, there is a way to make money at it, and a way to make yourself valuable in that field.

If that were true, we'd all be pornstars.

Outsourcing

[Metabolife]

Most of the programmers I see working in the US have something to go along with the CS major. Having an english degree with the CS degree, for example, makes you multifunctional and can specialize your work (real world example).

You don't want Computer Science

[Heretik]

if your primary concern is writing software and getting a job making money doing so. You want Software Engineering.

I suggest you do some research into what Computer Science actually is before assuming you'd like to go to University for it, because if you think you'll spend the majority of your time programming, you'll be unpleasantly surprised (The obscenely high first-year dropout rates of Computer Science programs are due mostly to this misconception)

Re:You don't want Computer Science

[NitsujTPU]

I don't know about that.

I'm getting a PhD in Computer Science in the Fall. I earned by B.S. in 2001, and started up as a software engineer at a defense contractor after that. Right now, I'm a researcher at an Ivy League university's Computer Science department. I write software, and lots of it, to support my research.

Largely, Computer Science can be divided into:

Systems
Theory
and
*Wildcard (but, usually people say "Artificial Intelligence" here)

As for undergrad CS, I'd say it's mostly programming and theory, with some application specific stuff thrown in (databases, artificial intelligence, robotics, games, graphics).

My first year was entirely programming, and, that's what incoming freshmen can expect here. I think that what drove people out is that it wasn't networking, configuring computers, "IT" stuff. They also didn't like that it was hard. They were "good with computers," but that didn't make them programmers. The first couple classes are weed-outs to make sure that they won't hate programming too much their sophomore year and feel stuck when they're in their junior year, having only done the requirements to declare for computer science, and need a whole mess of classes to jump into Mechanical Engineering or Chemical Engineering.

Most of the people that I know who majored in Computer Science became programmers when they got out of school, and I know relatively few schools that offer "software engineering" as its own major.

I say this with all due respect to you, but, seriously, I don't think this is very good advice at all.

Re:You don't want Computer Science

[JamesWJohnson]

I would agree with this. In fact, on the first day of CS2001 (a stupid pass/fail class that's supposed to help us get familiarized with the uni), the professor who was doing the class told us specifically that computer science is *not* just programming, and it's possible to have an IT job without ever programming once. Based on the people who are/aren't doing well in CS right now, I can say that you need to make sure that you know what you're getting into. In my suite right now, there are 5 computer science majors. The ones who are huge gamers and are just really good at clicking around in Windows are dropping it and moving to MIS. The guys who are always messing with how their computers work (and enjoy it) are doing well.

Re:You don't want Computer Science

[ChrisGilliard]

As for undergrad CS, I'd say it's mostly programming and theory, with some application specific stuff thrown in (databases, artificial intelligence, robotics, games, graphics).

As a person with a Bachelors in Computer Engineering, I can tell you that the first year of my major or the Computer Science major (which has the exact same classes the first year), is mostly about Math (Calculus), Science (either Chemistry or Physics or both), Electives (e.g. Humanities/Social Sci) and Intro to programming classes. You might have to take a discrete (sp?) math class first year also. These are largely designed to be weeder classes to get rid of those that can't cut it as an engineer and for the most part have nothing to do with what you will do after graudation as a programmer. They are however very useful as weeder classes. So, I agree with the GP. The first year is more about Math and Science than hardcore programming. You don't get into games, robotics, graphics, ai, or databases until year three or four. Of course when I say that I'm not talking about using a database in an application or even creating simple games like tic tac toe or concentration, these could be done in the intro programming classes, but the theory behind db, ai, and graphics are certainly not covered until year three or four.

Re:Learn a new language?

[Keruo]

Parent was bit trollish, but he has a point though..
Asia is currently worlds fastest growing economical area, and knowing how to speak japanese, mandarin or hindi might be rather useful.

Sigh

[NitsujTPU]

Do this with your future: What you want to do with it.

Do you really feel so tied down that you have to choose your career based on current trends? The trends won't last through when you finish your degree. Do you think that people who started their BS during the dot com boom made a dime of the millions that people made hawking their crap?

Seriously, pick a career based on what you want to do. You'll be a happier person for it.

There is shortage of good talent in Silicon Valley

[cryfreedomlove]

I am a hiring manager in Silicon Valley. There is a shortage of great talent among the IT work force. In the last 12 months it has gotten harder to hire great talent and there is a definite salary inflation situation going on right now because most great candidates are seeing multiple competing offers.

Do IT only if you love it.
Consistently renew your skills. Commit yourself to a lifetime of learning new tech.
Live where the jobs are (e.g. San Jose, CA or Austin , TX).
Find a business where you are excited to apply your skills.
Avoid arrogance and treat people well.

Do these things and you'll always be in a high paying job.

Re:High real estate + low wages == collapse

[NitsujTPU]

Yeah, but if you're going to buy into that, the safest thing to do is to move out into the mountains, grow your own food, and have a really trusty shotgun. That, or move to Canada.

Don't worry, go for it

[LowneWulf]

I wouldn't worry. Sure a lot of even development tasks are being farmed out to India or China. But there's still more than enough demand and competition for the top CS graduates to ensure a healthy and lucrative career.

My only advice is to get a good education, and build a good resume while you can. If you spend 6 months getting a certification-of-the-week, write a little text adventure in Visual Basic, then wonder why you're not getting six-figure salary offers to start, you're probably next on the list to be outsourced. If you've got a CS undergrad degree (or better yet, a master's degree) from a top school, then people are going to be literally fighting over you, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

IT is still worth it

[Wiseleo]

One one hand we have rapid education growth globally, on the other we have rapidly growing complexity of technology.

My prediction is that as we get out of the Bush dark ages, corrective measures will be passed to stop certain forms of offshore activity. Additionally, consumer backlash is very real these days and as the requirement for high level technology rises in general so will the demand for those who can make it work correctly.

A lot of companies are in fact abandoning or at least reconsidering their offshore initiatives. I have several clients who have offshore operations and they are scaling them back and bringing some of that work back home.

Why is this important? I support a product called Microsoft Small Business Server 2003. I am one of the leading experts on this product today. It is something you can literally buy off the shelf and setup easily. One would think that is the end. :-) SBS2003 is comprised on Windows Server 2003, Exchange Server 2003, SQL Server 2000, Windows Sharepoint Servers pre-installed, ISA 2004 Server, and a few sophisticated web applications. Some clients also add other stack components such as Small Business Financials and MS CRM 3.0 Small Business Edition.

In translation, that means that we sell a $4700 application suite for $1500. These are full products that require enterprise expertise to use them. Small Business Financials is a friendly name for Great Plains (yes, THAT, Great Plains), and MS CRM 3.0 Small Business has no feature limitations on itself either besides the maximum number of users.

If you take a typical small business owner who uses Quickbooks and throw them into this environment, they are lost. Make no mistake, they demand these applications from us and they do love them when they are customized.

I think the next era of highly complex networks is about to begin. A competent software developer specializing in making this process easier will make a killing. I know how much money my company is set to make this year and I am truly amazed at just how many untapped markets there are. :-)

There is a lot of opportunity in IT, but I think you have to own a business to truly succeed. Working for someone else will not make it happen. That means, take some basic business courses in addition to IT when you have the opportunity.

Good luck!

Make sure you can write.

[daeg]

The best advice I can give you is have stunning writing skills. You will be writing every day. E-mail, IM, proposals, agendas, reports and presentations are part of any job, even if they are a small part. Some companies don't care if you have good writing skills, but no business will complain if your skills are higher than they want.

Go for "Software Architecture" for 200, Alex

[autophile]

All of this is, of course, IMHO.

"Programming" conjures up visions of some guy with pale complexion staring into his monitor, banging away at the keyboard, trying to fix yet another bug. Or, in a better light, maybe reading some API and/or design specification and banging away at the keyboard trying to implement it. A "programmer" can be thought of as a construction worker.

"Software Architect" is what you get when you take away the specific implementation: the programming language, the operating system, the specific database. What you're left with is the high-level big-picture design. You get to draw boxes, arrows, flowcharts, ping-pong diagrams... you get to be the guy up at the marker board smiling at the camera, pointing to a complex diagram, your vision for the product, that you don't have to spend nights implementing because that's what they pay the keyboard-bashers for. A "software architect" can be thought of as the high-paid and lauded building architect.

In a sense, software architecture is the creative side, while converting the design to code is the mechanical side.

I'm not even sure you want to talk about "going into IT". I thought IT was more like the maintenance guys of the building after it's built. Like in the UK's "The IT Crowd". It certainly wouldn't be as rewarding to me as programmer or software architect. In any case, even if all this does fall under the general heading "IT", you can at least narrow down what you want to do.

Anyway, what's this have to do with outsourcing? I think software architecture is what you want to get into, since I firmly believe that is what the US is not going to outsource -- or at least not to the extent that keyboard-bashing has.

That being said, it definitely doesn't hurt to know at least one major programming language -- either Java, or (shudder) even C#. That way you at least have some idea of the common idioms of the code, and then you don't have to specify every nut and bolt in your diagram.

--Rob

Re:Go for "Software Architecture" for 200, Alex

[leabre]

Your idea of a software architect is flawed. I interview people for a Sr. Developer position that says that are also an architect. Problem is, in over a year, we haven't found a single person that knows what software architecture truly is and it sounds like you don't either.

Is software architecture all about flowcharts and design specs but the architect not a competent programmer? Not in my shop (we make insurance and accounting software). A truly competent architect will be deeply acquainted with various design methadologies, techniques, tips & tricks for that various technologies/paradigms being implemented, industry trends and will have been through quite a lot in the trenches before they can truly design a system like ours that scales to tens of thousands of concurrent users daily and millions of financial & non-financial transactions per day.

We get applications that think they are an architect because they know what the Factory or Strategy patterns are but can't write explain or write code that explains why one would use a quicksort over a bubblesort or why one would use a list traversal over a binary search for finding sorted information. The same people say they are competent in distributed architectures but can't explain when to use SOAP and WebServices instead of a custom TCP/IP server or how a message-based system works. They can't explain the difference between a Factory and an Abstract Factory or any suitable definition and implementation of the Provider and Observer design patterns. I'm not talking about rocket science. I don't expect my architects to be one with design patterns but if they put on their resume that they are expert with patterns they better impress me regarding that topic.

The same people can explain the difference between .NET/ASP.NET and Java/JSP but can't come up with any good comparitive strenths/weaknesses between both. The same "architects" know very little about clustering and load balancing but somehow feel competent in designing systems that scale to potentially millions of users.

They can't explain (or more importantly, demonstrate) very well how to both invoke and prevent against cross-site scripting attacks and SQL-Injection attacks alike. While a few applicants appeared to be well acquainted with preventing SQL injection attacks neither could write code that has the vulnerability or explain certain practices/mindsets that can contribute to both the cause and the solution to the problem. When asked how they would design a destributed component over a network, they would write "chatty" interfaces and thus, consume more resources, network bandwith, and impede performance and act surprised when asked if there was a better way.

Many have the attitude that they know everything and what they know is how they'll do anything. While not wrong if they are truly that competent, in general, a good architect will be open to new ideas and will refuse to lock themselves into a box. I don't want a COBOL architect on my team that hasn't opened their mind to newer ideas and methadologies, more importantly, an architect that full well is aware they don't know everything and always double-checks and verifies their designs/ideas are the right way vs. assuming such is the architect that gets my praise and will have the best success anywhere they go.

When asked to about transactional system (both at the database level and at via compensating resource managers for non-database transactions) only one demonstrating any understanding of the topic, problems, concerns, and good design skills relating to the topic. Others had simply avoided using transactions for the past 15 years of the "architectural" career. They don't udnerstand the nature of insurance accounting, and related banking, I suppose. About all were uncomfortable discussing transactions and transactional systems/concerns during the interview (to their defense, no one ever made a point of it on their resume either, at least; the one guy who did was truly amazing

Media spreads fear, uncertainty and doubt

[Mustang Matt]

The offshoring problem is grossly overexaggerated and all it does is separate the men from the boys.

That being said, I would focus on doing something you enjoy regardless of money. It makes the difference in life. I bet a lot of people claim to enjoy their job on here, but I bet a lot of them are lying about it. Usually the money makes these jobs worth tolerating but working in a "the office/dilbert/office space" style environment is detrimental to the soul.

don't do information systel.ms

[Gramberto]

Computer Science, computer engineering, and electrical engineering are far more powerful degrees. They are also much hard than IS. I took some IS classes to learn some new things at a local state college. I thought the classes were a joke. The classes were easy. There was no low level theory at all. No you will never directly use the theory, but if you understand the concepts its much easier to grab a book and learn the practical stuff on your own. The same school has very hard computer science courses.

Even if you want to be a network engineer. You will learn ALOT more with a computer science degree. You can then do a minor in information systems and take a few classes that you are interested in.

Computer engineering is probably the most valuable to employers. The reason is that the barrier to entry is higher. For a network administrator or a programmer you can learn it without school. You really can't learn computer engineering without school.

Re:don't do information systel.ms

[Average_Joe_Sixpack]

They are also much hard than IS. I took some IS classes to learn some new things at a local state college. I thought the classes were a joke. The classes were easy.

... I'm guessing English 101 wasn't one of the classes.

Re:don't do information systel.ms

[joekampf]

No, most of us with our CS degrees are not creating the next processor, or the next programming language or OS. However, what I have found to be invaluable, and what makes ME more valuable than the masses of IS majors or even the offshore/inshore cookie cutter programmers out there is that I understand what is going on under the covers. So when I decide to use a feature, or create a system, I'll know how it will scale, what the implication are when the damn thing is running on something other than my desktop. I can't tell you how many developers out there have no idea about things like, threads, transactions, I/O, networks. What can go wrong when those things break or are not handled right and what that means to the system they are developing. Thus you get crap that has to be restarted every day, or isn't robust.

Re:The industry isn't that bad.

[Greventls]

I am graduating in a week. The hard workers I know all have jobs. The slackers and incompetent people all do not have a job. If you aren't going to go into IT, what are you going to go into? In terms of people having jobs out of college, engineering and then business degrees are the only other ones I see. So you could go into engineering or if you want to be someones bitch, go into business. I feel bad for liberal arts majors.

There's a future for *competent* IT

[RyoShin]

I'd say you do have a future, but you have to actually work for it. Too many programmers think that their years of Visual Basic and HTML mean they can truly code, and too many people used to just Windows AD get shunted into the field.

At a non-profit I worked for as an intern, I was under three different head admins in a year and a half. The first guy was pretty good- while he didn't know everything, he could do the common stuff and figure out other things as they came around. After he left (he worked for a company that contracted out per-yearly) he got replaced by a guy who was lazy as all hell. I, the intern, had to remind him about such things as ping and ipconfig. He was also lazy, and got canned soon after starting. The third guy was alright, but also lacked some common knowledge, despite years in the field.

In short, don't limit yourself to what you know. Don't learn one programming language, learn five. Know how to administrate in both Windows and Linux/Unix. The things that are being offshored are helpdesks and jobs that don't require heavy expertise. Make yourself useful, and you're made.

You could also try going into some "different" areas. I have a year or two before I graduate as a CS major, and I'm thinking about being a computer forensics guy. With the increase in crimes done through or related to the internet, there's a growing demand by law enforcement, both local and federal, for people who can get into confiscated computers and retrieve deleted files. If not with the police force, I could work as a private detective, contracting to large corporations when they get hacked to trace it and try to find the perps.

Do it for the love of it!

[canuck57]

As a young person considering various choices for the future career...

There are far too many people in this I/T business for the wrong reasons. In part, because there is a shortage and a marginally compentant employee is better than none is a currently accepted norm. That being said, your career is a life long endeavor. Those that succeed to the top in any profession have one thing in common, a passion for what they do.

So if you pick a profession and don't have a passion for it and then become a mushroom in a chair do not blame the business... blame yourself.

So before you pick a career, ask yourself will you do it with passion?

Go for it

[Derkec]

If what you're interested in is computer programming - go for it. Money magazine just ranked 'Software Developer' it's top job largely because of expected growth in the field. That said, be sure that you can write and speak well. Your key advantages over someone in India should be:
1) Timezone
2) More experience (developers there are often promoted to management too quickly)
3) Superior command of English (they'll speak it, you need to do so better)
4) Assorted cultural advantages

You will need to be able to talk to people and sort out requirements to be more valuable. The guy in India just can't sit across the table from a user of whatever you are making and discuss options, quickly estimate 'lots of effort' or 'pretty easy', and help the users tell you what to create.

At the end of the day, you'll still need to be able to write code, but you'll need to do a whole lot more as well. These days, I'm thinking that the 'whole lot more' may be more fun, but that's just me.

As for the guy who joked 'speak hindi', I'd point out that there are dozens of languages in India and when Indians from different parts of the country speak to eachother, they usually do so in English.

Re:Go for it

[Vulcann]

The guy in India just can't sit across the table from a user of whatever you are making and discuss options, quickly estimate 'lots of effort' or 'pretty easy', and help the users tell you what to create.

Terribly sorry to disappoint you but I'd like to add another little bullet point to you're list:

5) Never underestimate you're competition.

If everyone remains in a pipe dream of high caliber work never making its way to Indians, it'll lull you into a complacence that is hard to justify. What makes one assume that an Indian who works hard as hell, is more driven towards excelling in his education, and often works for sheer survival is going to fare worse than you ? In India, seeking a higher education is almost a "non-option" for most people. Everyone who is anyone will either try like hell to get into Engineering or Medicine. After they graduate, they face ten times more competition than Americans do in securing a job. All this makes Indians work they're asses off to differentiate themselves from the competition. When they go abroad, typically the odds are much much better in they're favour. I have friends who barely made the top 20 of the class in India and they excelled beyond belief in the US. One of them now is a tech lead in a firm with 30 people under him and all he was in India was a commerce graduate (read non-engineer).

So if you assume that all Indians are good for is being "code monkeys", think again.

Indians typically dont take risks (like starting a business) but they have all the technical muscle it takes to run a business to the top and charge a fraction of they're US counterparts. Thats the reason they're keenly sought after in the first place.

You wanna keep you're job. I suggest you develop and differentiate you're skills to compete at the plane Indians/Chinese do.

Career choices

[bytesmythe]

I've noticed a number of problems with IT as a career choice. Back in '97, I graduated with a degree in computer science and started working like everyone else. I hopped from job to job for a number of years. The longest I stayed at one place was about a year and 4 months. After a while, I finally realized my problem. I absolutely hate working in IT. There are a number of reasons why. I'm not saying that these will apply to you or anyone else, but if you feel they do, it might be a good indication that IT is not the field for you.

1) I can't stand having to work on other people's stuff. I don't like being given assignments that I'm not interested in and having to complete them. I'm sure people with stronger "work ethics" can force themselves to muddle through, but I'm not going to do it. Worse, there are a lot of mundane administrative tasks (like timesheets, etc.) that have to be dealt with. If I'm working for myself and getting paid based on those things, it would be different, but it always just seems like a waste.

2) Having to constantly keep up with new technology got kind of old for me. I like low-level programming in C. I don't really care for web apps and such. I tend to find the various frameworks overly complicated for no apparent reason. Most places I've interviewed with want to see lots of solid job experience with particular technologies, which can be difficult if you weren't working somewhere that used it. .NET is the newest example I can think of.

3) "IT" type programming isn't very interesting. I would rather work on low-level stuff, simulations, academic problems, etc. I don't really care a bit about data migration, or making loan payment GUIs, or whatever. There's relatively little problem solving to be done, which is the whole reason I liked programming in the first place. Instead you get handed some half-assed specs and spend all your time chasing people down to figure out what needs to be done, even though none of them really know or have the authority to decide. That's when the meetings begin.

4) Did I mention meetings? I hate meetings. I can't decide if conference calls are worse or not. On one hand, you can mute the phone and make faces, but on the other, it's frustrating to have to listen to people you can barely hear, deal with flaky connections, etc., and you still have to pay attention because someone will certainly end up asking you a question.

5) Outsourcing. Not just to foreign countries or migrant H1-B visa holders, but to any third-party contracting group. There are several problems with this. Many times, consulting companies (Accenture) will put people on a project who have never programmed before. They don't even have degrees in programming. The consulting company will use a project to train them. It's real fun explaining what recursion and stack overflows are to someone on a major project.

6) If you ARE a contractor though, you might be in luck. You're more likely to get to work with newer technology, so it's easier to stay ahead of the curve. From what I've seen, full-time employees tend to have to work on maintenance rather than new development.

Right now I'm transitioning out of IT as a career. I'm still working, but as a training consultant. It pays enough that I can finally risk going into business on my own. (A non-IT business at that!) The only way I'll ever feel motivated to put effort into a "job" is working for myself. I'll never give up computers and programming, and will pursue it as a hobby (and possibly as an academic career in the future) for the rest of my life.

But work in IT in the modern business world? No way.

Re:Career choices

[Kjella]

1) I can't stand having to work on other people's stuff. I don't like being given assignments that I'm not interested in and having to complete them. I'm sure people with stronger "work ethics" can force themselves to muddle through, but I'm not going to do it. Worse, there are a lot of mundane administrative tasks (like timesheets, etc.) that have to be dealt with. If I'm working for myself and getting paid based on those things, it would be different, but it always just seems like a waste.

That sounds like working in any reasonably sized company in any position. I think you will find that even working for yourself you have to do a lot of work that isn't interesting, but the authorities or your clients demand it. Timesheets are annoying to track in any case but unless you track time and see which assignments are winners and losers your business will fail quite quickly, not to mention you normally need it for invoicing.

The rest of the points are fairly on target, but if that's your 1) reason to quit, good luck. My experience is that the grass isn't greener on the other side. I went from being independent (co-owner) to working for a major company. Why? I know what my paycheck will be, it's not stellar but it's predictable. I get to do more of what I want to do - in a small company everyone's a handyman where needed. And at the moment, I feel a slowness in work is more my boss' problem than mine, because I know I have specific skills they need and can't make anyone else cover for. I could imagine trying to make it on my own again, but then I want to have what I consider a sure-fire winner. Going out there again just to have all my clients be my "boss" instead of the one I have? No thanks. It's not all it's cracked up to be.

Re:Career choices

[eyegone]

I can take my business income and spend it as I see fit without having to "go through the channels" and "get everyone's buy-in".

Until you get married.

Supplemtal Computer Science.

[jellomizer]

I would suggest that you take a Supplemental Major/Minor with your Computer Science Degree. Things like Computer Science/(Business, Engineering (Non Computer Engineering), Physical Sciences, etc...) That way your skills are targeted beyond just a Programmer but to a professional who is useful to your future employer on multiple levels. You can easily outsource a Programmer, but a Programmer who understands something else the business needs is much harder.

Re:There is shortage of good talent in Silicon Val

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree. I code in the valley, and there are tons of jobs now. Only problem is housing prices around here are too high to justify staying in this area. We are looking to leave - go to portland or something.

But if you're down with living in an apartment and making a decent wage, it's looking really really good.

(You'd have to make about $250,000 to even look at decent house in the bay area (not to mention have $120,000 in cash for the down payment) - while the pay around here is good, it's not that good)

CNN and College

[pete-classic]

It's laudable that you are concerned about college, but you have the rest of your life to worry about job security. On the other hand the days in which you may bang 17-year-olds are numbered. Get your priorities straight.

-Peter

Re:CNN and College

[nEoN nOoDlE]

It's laudable that you live your life to the fullest with no worries about tomorrow, but he's got the rest of his life to worry about.

As one of those people who worried about college when I was in high school, did well in college because I wasn't out getting drunk every night "living life to the fullest" and now have an awesome job that I love shortly after graduation and now have money to burn on alcohol and women while most of my graduating class doesn't... I'd say his priorities are pretty straight.

Jobs in the Free Market?

[reporter]

The free exchange of goods and services (including labor) between the United States and India damages how the (relatively) free market operates in the United States. The (relatively) non-free market in India has destroyed much of its economy. The majority of Indians are unemployed or underemployed. Although the news reports describing the tech boom in India is accurate, that boom is largely restricted to the tech sector. The remainder of the Indian economy is in terrible shape. Indian government intervention in that economy generates hordes of desperate labor that flood into the United States or into the Indian tech sector.

The final result is that, due to the free flow of services (including labor in the form of outsourcing) between the United States and India, Indian government intervention now indirectly damages the operation of the American free market (for high-tech labor), suppressing wages and diminishing working conditions.

You see a similar phenomenon in the unskilled-labor market. Mexican government intervention in the Mexican economy generates hordes of desperate labor that floods the American market for unskilled labor. The presence of Mexican illegal aliens in the American market suppresses wages and diminishes working conditions as American employers exploit a nearly limitless supply of desperate workers willing to work for slave wages in dangerous or grueling conditions.

No job in America is safe from this destruction to the free market.

You should select the job doing the kind of work that most interests you. In your spare time on the weekend, stay abreast of international news. Vote for populist politicians who support free trade between the United States and only other (relatively) free markets like Canada and Japan, not Mexico nor India. Support policies that terminate trade between the United States and (relatively) non-free markets like Mexico or India.

Also support policies that compel Washington to aggressively intervene in both the Mexican government and the Indian government. The nature of the intervention should be at least as aggressive as the Mexican meddling (by Vicente Fox and his corrupt ilk) in the American Congress. Washington should eliminate Mexican politicians and Indian politicians who promote the economic destruction that has generated hordes of desperate labor fleeing to the United States.

Re:Jobs in the Free Market?

[jcr]

The (relatively) non-free market in India has destroyed much of its economy.

I think you've missed the real story here, which is that India's economy is improving at a drastic rate as India gets over its traditional habit of trying to follow the Soviet central-planning model. High tech isn't the only area where the difference is dramatic. India was unable to feed itself only about fifteen years ago, and today is a major food exporter to the rest of Asia, for example.

-jcr

Re:Jobs in the Free Market?

[say]

No job in America is safe from this destruction to the free market.

This must be the least insightful comment on globalization I've ever seen. What constitutes a free market seems... vague. Do you really have any proof that government intervention in Canada is any less than in Mexico?

Here's a mind bending newsflash for you: The difference between the countries you want to trade with and the ones you don't want to trade with is that the non-tradables are _poor_, while the tradables are _rich_. You don't want free markets. You want protectionism, where the rich world is allowed to keep its benefits by keeping the poor away through immoral trade barrier.

So it isn't the free market that is being destroyed in the US, it is the protectionistic privileges. That's the true essence of the free market: it makes sure that cheapest (per quality unit) is preferred. And it's no way the US can remain cheapest without dropping some of its (relative) riches.

Re:Jobs in the Free Market?

[fisternipply]

Not true!! The playing field isn't level between the first and third worlds, and that's the fundamental cause of the financial incentive for companies to use overseas labor. Yes, we exploit people in third-world countries, but this "truly free market" of which you speak would include creating comparable labor conditions for all countries who trade with each other. That currently isn't the case. Demanding comparable labor conditions isn't protectionism, and would actually lower the "immoral" trade barrier.

Re:Jobs in the Free Market?

[killjoe]

One important reason why developers can work for cheap in india is the prevelance of slave, indentured and child labor there. Because of a permanent underclass of slaves and near slaves the developers get all their needs for housing, food, clothing etc met dirt cheap. When your bricks are made by 14 year olds who have been sold into slavery it's pretty cheap to build a house.

If India ever outlaws child labor or the buying and selling of humans and gives the untouchables full rights the cost of development will go up there and the outsources will move to africa or use chinese prison laborers.

In actually a plummer gets just as much money as a code monkey if not more and your job is not likely to be outsourced. Think about it.

Re:Jobs in the Free Market?

[Ex-MislTech]

Yes,

The steel industry is gone here, thus billy joel's song allen town .

The mercantile industry is not totally gone yet, but its going to china and malaysia .

Farming got so bad here that many bands got together to do farmaid for the
bankrupt farmers and we now subsidize thru tax money some farms by paying them
to not grow anything at all .

GM recently shuttered 5 major facilities, and opened a new one in India,
with more to come from all US auto manufacturers .

When GM closed the plants here Delphi a supplier also had huge layoffs,
and other suppliers got hit by trickle down effect as well .

It is my opinion and that of others as well that soon the US will make nothing here .

We will have zero manufacturing, and with that the engineering for it will follow suit .

India and China have engineers being trained "right here" in our schools , funded
with our tax dollars + the students tuition . Yes, some tax dollars still go to pay for
the university and its expansion . Look it up, me and my frieds did .

Wal-mart is building the largest building on earth in china for direct warehousing
of products to come from china .

Like in rome, all the ppl cared about before the fall was "Bread and Circuses"

Oh well...

Ex-MislTech

SQL is the way to go!

[Faramir]

At least in the Twin Cities, if you know SQL you're golden right now. Desparate shortage up here. My company has been searching for someone since January, with very few applicants, and even fewer qualified. The only two who were qualified turned us down for other offers. I came from Austin, TX, where I had spent 3 years looking for a new job. No luck -- too much competition from laid off workers. But up north there is high demand for C#, Java, SQL. Even finding a straight up, skilled HTML guru is difficult here.

Too much Lou Dobbs

[crmartin]

The fact is that the offshoring fad is fading as people find out that it's not the cost per line that matters if you aren't getting the code you need. I'm engaged in helping save a project that went down that path too far; we got lots of code, it didn't do what was needed. We now hope to recover some value, but all development has moved back to the US, where we can interact with the customers in real time.

Re:There is shortage of good talent in Silicon Val

[NitsujTPU]

Everything that I hear says that Portland's a good deal. The area is heating up a bit, and you can still get a house at a good price. If you can hop on a developing area, and then ride that rising tide, that's the way to get ahead financially (if that's your goal). It's also nice to be in an expanding area, and an expanding (or new) business.

I think it's all a matter of taste, but if I weren't floating around stodgy old academic institutions, I'd be looking at shiny new tech companies.

I'm not industry analyst, but I'd say that you're right on the money.

The Catch

[DanTheLewis]

As long as you survive the Iran deployment.

Further thought needed

[Jerry Coffin]

As a young person considering various choices for the future career I'd like to pursue, IT and computer science continually reappear near the top of the list of fields I'm interested in.

I'd say that if both are showing up, either the testing methodology is a mess, or else you need to give considerably more thought to what you really want. At least IMO, the mindsets needed for IT and computer science are enough different that almost no one person is likely to be particularly good at both.

IT mostly involves applying existing knowledge. It's true that you need often to write bits of code, typically in some scripting language to apply the existing knowledge to your exact situation.

Though the term is often mis-applied, computer science is really about research into things like algorithms, languages, computability, etc. For a true computer scientist, writing code is mostly a sideline, and the code s/he writes will often be little more than a proof of concept to demonstrate something they've invented (e.g. a demonstration implementation of a new algorithm). The code he writes will rarely have much practical applicability -- if he's demonstrating a sorting algorithm, it'll probably have a nearly unusable user interface. OTOH, if he's doing user interface research, it probably won't implement any real algorithm behind that interface.

More or less halfway between the two is software engineering. At least as I'd use the term, software engineering is what many "computer scientists" really do. Specifically, a software engineer is somebody whose primary job is to develop software. The software engineer should be aware of what the computer scientists have invented, and (particularly) needs to have a broader perspective, to help produce complete applications including both (reasonably) optimal algorithms and decent UIs.

From a corporate perspective, computer science falls under "research". Software Engineering falls under "development", and IT falls under operations.

Consider a single task: doing backups. A computer scientist might deal with something like inventing a faster method for coalescing incremental updates to a file to produce the final output more quickly. The software engineers write the backup program that implements this algorithm, along with a decent UI, etc. The IT person is responsible for ensuring that the backup program is run at the right times, ensuring the correct backup media are in the drives at the right times, etc.

A computer scientist will usually be absent-minded, idealistic and will focus on future possibilities. An IT specialist will be pragmatic, focused on the here and now, and his single largest strength will often be presence of mind.

my advice to my kids and you

[iplayfast]

Do a job that you love. There are up sides and down sides to this but the up side is that you can enjoy going to work where you will spend a significant portion of you life. The downside is that your love may change and what used to be fun is now a chore. I was first a musician, and after 3 years on the road decided it was not fun anymore. I then went back to University and learned about computers. Luckily, I still love it 25 years later.

Another up side, is that if you love to do something you will get better at it. This means that you will become the craftsman that people want to have working for them. Your salary will increase and you will be employed.

A third upside is that your enthusiasm about your work will show. When you go for job interviews it will show. People feel more comfortable hiring someone who they can see has enthusiasm and a proven experience.

The nice thing about the computer field, is that it's large enough that you can partition your hobby and work into 2 different types of work, so you don't become overexposed in the one at work.

Re:Starting Salaries

[dracocat]

That may be, but the amount of money being paid is also a correlation to the supply vs demand ratio for a particular job.

You may also notice in the same study that more jobs were offered in IT than registered nurses, and I dont think anyone who is a registered nurse is complaining for lack of employment.

The fact remains, it is not difficult to get a job in IT. You or someone you know may have had some bad luck, but the industry as a whole is very healty; and when comparing IT graduates with those of other industries is nothing short of spectacular.

Re:Learn a new language?

[sterno]

Of the three, hindi would be the least useful. English is very commonly taught in India which is why a lot of the outsourcing goes there. Chinese and Japanese will be far more useful.

The arbitrage gap is disappearing...

[jordandeamattson]

The current arbitrage opportunities between the US market and other labor markets (India, Eastern Europe, China), like all arbitrage opportunities, is on the path to disappearing. I know many of you will look at bold statement with a high degree of skepticism.

In fact, I will go even further, within 20 years labor costs will not be a factor in moving work to India, Eastern Europe, or even China.

How do I back up these statements? Well, in my last position I was the dotted-line manager of an India team for a major software company. The 2005 raise budget for the India campus was 18%! Yes, that is correct. And this was on top of a mid-year, across the board, salary adjustment of 10%.

Simply put, salaries cannot grow at this rate (a CAGR of 29%) for an extended period of time without coming into line with those in the US. The ratio between the US and India is no longer 1:10, it is more like 1:4 and shrinking. This is the reality of a world which is flat. Things reach a point of balance. And in this case, the point of balance is moving up.

When I speak to companies who are doing offshoring these days, I am not hearing issues about labor costs at the front of the back. Rather, it is about finding specific skill sets and to attract people who don't want to live in Silicon Valley, the US, etc. Least you think the last point is fantasy, I personally know of a good 1/2 dozen folks who have moved to India and China (accepting local pay packages) in order to have a better quality of life (for example, household servants).

So, contrary to what Lou Dobbs would have you believe, IT and High Tech jobs are not leaving the US for India and China. IT and High Tech is alive and well in the US and will be for some time.

So my words to you: go for it! You will have a blast and will be able to feed your family.

Yours,

Jordan

Re:The arbitrage gap is disappearing...

[tedgyz]

So, contrary to what Lou Dobbs would have you believe, IT and High Tech jobs are not leaving the US for India and China. IT and High Tech is alive and well in the US and will be for some time.

So my words to you: go for it! You will have a blast and will be able to feed your family.

Well said. To put it another way, the really good IT workers will always have jobs. During the dot-com heyday I saw far too many people that had no business working in software. If you are only in it for the money, then you have already failed.

Re:Learn a new language?

[coleblak]

It really doesn't matter how well they speak English if I still can't understand them through a thick accent/crappy headset. Face-to-face, it's a lot easier than on the phone with someone wearing a headset that was bought since it was the cheapest model on the market. Half the time I talk to a Tech, in the US or out, I constantly have to ask them to repeat, speak up, and/or move the mouthpiece closer.

You'll need to learn ajax

[tlynch001]

Be sure you learn ajax. And get certified in web 2.0.

Re:Starting Salaries

[Brandybuck]

The starting salary only applies for those graduates who get jobs in the first place.

Having recently interviewed several candidates on campus, I'm starting to see why they're not getting hired. Most are unmotivated, but a lack of income will soon fix that. The real problem is that they don't have any real world skills. A university CS/CE graduate should either have enough hand-on programming experience to know which end of a compiler goes up, or enough theoretical knowledge to know the difference between the basic data structures. I'm not getting that from the candidates I'm interviewing.

Unless the universities straighten up, I think the future of university graduates is an extra year at DeVry/ITT just to get the skills to be employable.

Re:IT is a Commodity most places

[atomic-penguin]

Yeah, what he said. There is more to I.T. and Computer Science than programming. I am one of those insourcing consultants. We do just about anything and everything for customers related to I.T. One of the reasons we are more valuable than having a separate developer, network administrator, system administrator, security specialist, and technical support agent is they only have to go to us for all of those services.

We don't pigeonhole ourselves, the more services we offer, the benefit to the customer increases. It is more cost effective than paying salaries to full time employees who offer the same specialty as the services we provide. I do enough work for so many clients, it is like having several part-time jobs. I really love it too, never know what new problems I will have to face the next day.

To the original poster:
If you haven't started or finished College, it helps to focus on more than just programming. Take the parents advice and don't pigeonhole yourself. It never hurts to have a diverse foundation in your education. You will have more to fall back on something, in case programming doesn't pan out. There will probably be a hundred or so other posts in this article about getting a secondary degree in business. That's not a bad idea. It could be something different like engineering, physics, chemistry, graphic design, accounting, law, or literature. Don't put limits on yourself. Good luck, whatever you do.

Do what you love

[ggambett]

Do what you love. Be the best. The rest just happens.

Wake up and smell the coffee!

[firedragon852]

As someone who has worked in both the Silicon Valley in the US and the Far East, I can only say that I haven't looked back the day when I stopped hiring US software engineers and moved the development center to China. For companies like Oracle etc, what they are doing now is stop hiring in the US but continue to increase their headcount in India and China. The reason is simple: US IT staff salaries are just too high to be competitive. I can get the Chinese engineers to produce the same code for 10% of the cost. Then when you look at the skills that the US software engineers possess apart from the usual technical skills, they are just pathetic. For instance, I need all my software engineering staff to be able to read and write English and Chinese. That rules out 99% of the resumes I received in the US. When I started hiring in China, 100% of the local candidates can read and write English (though not perfect). The reality is it is only going to get worse for the US IT staff.

Re:Wake up and smell the coffee!

[David's Boy Toy]

Do your employees really need to all know how to read/write Chinese? Sounds like a convient excuse. Translation work isn't something programmers need to do. You need a small handful of people who can do that.

Think about transitions too

[eddeye]

Remember that an IT degree doesn't necessarily limit you to a job in the IT field. Besides the many jobs open to anyone with a college degree, you can use your technical background to move into other fields. Combine it with biochemistry for a job in the pharmaceutical industry. A solid math background is attractive to financial companies. Physics, geology, climatology, accounting, library science -- the list is virtually endless. There will always be options available to people willing and able to use their technical background outside of IT and programming.

I went from an MS in computer science to software developer to teaching cs to law school. Law is an incredibly broad field and technical skills will serve you well in any area, not just intellectual property.

Re:Learn a new language?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not going to say a word about irony here. Not a word.

Because I try to be act good behavior on /.

Re:Starting Salaries

[jcr]

A university CS/CE graduate should either have enough hand-on programming experience to know which end of a compiler goes up, or enough theoretical knowledge to know the difference between the basic data structures. I'm not getting that from the candidates I'm interviewing.

I find that the quality of applicants varies enormously, even from the same school. I do see rather a lot of "grade inflation", but new CSEE graduates who had a 3.0 or better GPA are usually at least trainable.

What I try to seek out is whether a newly-minted CS degree holder likes the field, or just got steered to it by a guidance counselor. If the interest is there, the talent can generally be trained in.

-jcr

The first questions to ask yourself...

[chicago_scott]

I suppose the first questions to ask yourself is why you are looking at going into IT. Are you looking for a stable career? Are you looking for fortune? Do you really enjoy computers and programming as a hobby and think it would be cool to earn a living doing something you enjoy or are you just looking for any job that you can earn a living doing?

I went into technology as a programmer/software enginner because I loved working with computers and I saw a way make a living while doing something I love. Ten years later I still love it. I've always prefered hands on development and prefer coding and on some project I like being the technical lead, but otherwise I have avoided the management-side of IT. I could make more money, but at a huge cost to my personal satisifaction.

Why do you want to go into IT?

A job in IT vs A job in comp sci

[DaedalusHKX]

Those are two VERY different things.

*Job in computer science = programmer getting paid 51k/year. You might end up actually building software, though most likely you'll get a job in the so called "defense" industry, making a living rewriting code for yet another way of bringing death to others. If you have ethics, or lack friends in the business of death, then this job will be closed to you and you'll have to go wait tables, flip burgers, or reeducate yourself, and consider comp sci as something that prepared you for the future... and not much else.

*Job in IT = 40 hours plus overtime hourly pay as a windows only troubleshooter at 6 to 10 bucks /hour. If you have a degree in comp sci, you will be expected to work weekends recoding the Microsoft Frontpage 98 website of the company, and making it compatible with the 'latest IE6 technology' by "integrating innovative software solutions with Microsoft Front Page 2003" (or whatever the latest piece of trash from the Micro Shaft is... If you're lucky they'll even pay you for it, that or buy you lunch (probably the latter).

The Real World

[billybob_jcv]

I'm an IT director at a corporation with an IT staff of ~20 people. Our IT budget is fairly small - we typically have funds for 1-3 decent sized projects per year. But, like most companies our size, we do not have the full-time staff to continue maintenance on our existing systems AND run a dedicated project team to implement a new system. We bring in an implementation partner to staff the new projects - and members of our full-time staff generally act as the project manager and as part-time technical members of the team. The dedicated project team is primarily contractors. I worked for a while as a contractor when I was younger - and as many here can testify, it is not an easy life, and not for everyone. Traveling from customer to customer all over the country, staying in one place for only a few months at a time - and always having the threat of lay-off over your head if you don't find a spot on the next project. What's the problem? There are many. The full-time staff doesn't really get involved enough in the new system implementation - they are too busy with maintenance. Tight budgets make us push the schedules too hard - because we want the high-priced contractors gone as soon as possible. The contractors aren't in-house long enough to really refine the solution to match our business processes - they try to slam it in, get paid and move on - leaving us to clean-up the messes and deal with business users who are disappointed with 80% solutions. The real-world of corporate IT is an ugly place - full of long hours & weekends, clueless corporate execs and $500K software packages that won't even install unless you spend a thousand manhours patching and tweaking code. Schools don't teach this stuff - they show you a few theories for building data models and writing compilers and send you on your way. I'm not saying a degree is worthless - on the contrary, the discipline required to complete a university program is extremely valuable and I won't hire non-degreed script kiddies. It's just that IMO the university curriculum is completely unrelated to the world of corporate IT. One of my university professors told me something that has stuck with me for 20 years: Technical people are complete idiots. We believe we have a Holy Calling to be techies, and we like being techies so much that we would do the work even if we didn't get paid. Lawyers and accountants get paid so much because they charge you just to have a talk with them. If techies did the same thing we would all be making millions of dollars!

Re:The Real World

[Narc]

Lawyers and Accounants also get paid to deal with people and interface with them. I don't want to sound stereotypical when saying techies are social retards, but I am by any stretch of the means in the workplace. I'd rather get my head down and do my job as opposed to get involved in politics. Therein lies the problem. If I had the skills, (give it a efw years to develop, I'm still young) I would do techy consultancy. Techies may grok at the idea.. it takes you away from the techy side and you get more involved in the BS we all hate, but face it... if you want the cash then thats where you have to go.

Everyone has that ubergeek thats been there for ages, knows it all and is generally well respected and admired. I'd assume compensated well also, but these spots are limited and few and far between.

Comes down to asking yourself 'what do you want?' sometimes you cant have both. Other times, right place and the right time you may strike it lucky. Sitting there and getting on with it goes unnoticed for a majority of the time, sad but true. Just look at Milton from office space. ;)

Re:Learn a new language?

[Evilest Doer]

Chinese and Japanese will be far more useful.

I would say that Chinese would be the best one to learn overall. The Chinese I have known tend to take it as a compliment if you speak even some Chinese.

The Japanese I have known seem to be offended, even if your Japanese is perfect. Plus, if your resume does not have you in the precise little required sub-group, they won't even consider you for a particular job. And I'm not even getting into the whole racism issue. The Chinese aren't perfect, but I've been treated a damn sight better by them than any of the Japanese I have ever dealt with.

***note to mods: This is not meant as a troll. I am simply explaining my own personal experience...

Re:Jobs That Can't Be "Outsourced"?

[Animats]

HVAC installation and repair. That's a popular career change in Silicon Valley. Somebody has to go there to install and fix the ductwork, the fans, the chillers, and the controls.

Global perspective

[SuperGus]

I agree with other posts that first and foremost you should choose something you enjoy doing. Poor and happy is better than rich and miserable.

Once you've cleared that criterion, I think there is always a lucrative niche for technical people that have language skills (e.g. Chinese, not Perl) and are willing to work in the global economy. I'm an engineer, I have three languages, and have worked as an expat for companies in three countries.

There are thousands of MBAs who speak Chinese. There are vastly fewer people who have technical ability and can function overseas. Do a couple of years locally polishing your tech skillz, then you can go abroad as a project manager. Do a good job and soon you will be asked to decide whether to stay in a tech track or continue upward in management. Even companies that outsource need competent people who can run the show.

My recommendation: If you enjoy CompSci, then go CompSci major and Chinese or Japanese minor. How to choose Chinese vs Japanese? Trying firing up your favorite ethnic pr()n sites and see what tickles your fancy. Remember, do what you enjoy... :->

Re:And yet...

[DaedalusHKX]

I was presuming you are american, our government took out about 120% inflation on us (~3.4 trillion federal debt - 8.9 trillion last november when they cancelled the M3 report) when they went to war in Iraq.

Because of the sheer devaluing of the dollar against foreign currencies AND gold/silver/commodities... the dollar lost value big time (I haven't kept up on GBP). You may have made 50k, but if you were american, you would've noticed (well probably not) that the 50k you made has less buying power. Take rising transportation costs, food costs, housing, heating, power. If you think I'm just parrotting Lou Dobbs, I have gas powered heat. I paid nearly 90 dollars in January for heat. I drive for a living, which means I was home roughly 4 weekends and for the rest the heat was off... (except to keep the water heater running so the pipes didn't crack, but that is a minute amount.) I thought I got overcharged and went to talk to my neighbors... they fared even worse!

You see however, this concept isn't understood easily so I'll make it simple.

[Example:]

If you earned 10 dollars for a day from me for your labour, and there is only 10 dollars in the whole economy (its an abstract, bear with me), and I suddenly printed another 90 dollars, (don't ask why, the people never ask the government why they're being gouged), you suddenly have 10/100, your value has just dropped to 1/10th. You might still make a "profit" if you sell something you bought for 10 dollars for 12, but your overall economic power has dropped to 10% of what you used to have.

But to shut you up, I'll raise your pay tomorrow to a WHOPPING 15 dollars (a whole 50% pay increase!!)

[/Example]

However, fuel, power, food and housing costs will go up respectively, not immediately, but more gradually, to keep you from getting mad and doing the american thing... reaching for a gun and blowing my usurious international banker ass away.

As you can see, I'm referring to your buying power. Internally in your own economy you've got inflation beat. Congrats. A house is actually what is known as a "store of value" (or it would be in an economy dictated by solid assets/moneys instead of the fiat inflatable/deflatable paper/credit currency). If you're wondering, it isn't your house "appreciating" it is the fact that the national paper currency is depreciating, and thus the fixed "store of value" is simply reflecting that the little pieces of paper you sell your life for, are worth less and less each year.

Have you ever wondered why there was never inflation in economies based on Gold and Silver? Because the supply is controlled by nature. As gold and silver are not easilly printed like paper, one cannot simply print another 300000000000.00 in gold bullion bars at their local mint. That would require a few hundred trucks, and the material would be a set weight. On the opposite side, paper has NO intrinsic value... the same ink and paper is used to print 1 dollar bills and 100 dollar bills. The paper isn't worth the numbers on it, and the government acknowledges this by not allowing you to redeem any valuable assets against them, try redeeming gold at face value at Fort Knox sometime, and see if you can buy a bar from them. (You're likely to get shot first, the last time Congressmen tried to inventory Fort Knox assets, they were turned back by Army enforcers, it seems that Fort Knox is off limits to them... strangely since our Constitution states that Congress is in charge of coining and evaluating currency, which shall be made of nothing but gold or silver (according to Article 1 Section 10, I believe)... but hey, nobody reads those silly documents anymore...)

Just in case you're wondering, look up the Colonial Scrip (American Colonies), or the Talley Stick (England), and find out their uses.

Currencies were used to facilitate the transfer of goods, not as a Store of Value, that is saved for physical assets, gold, silver, houses, etc. Inflatable currencies were not meant to be used as S

Re:Learn a new language?

[gnuwho?]

I'm so sick of these alarmist IT outsourcing articles. Go to moster.com or hotjobs.com, if you live an any major metropolitian area, you will see hundreds if not thousands of jobs for skilled IT professionals. I spend most of my time at work looking for talented Java programmers and Linux gurus. My counterparts in other companies are seeing the same thing, a lack of talented developers. It is no longer 2002, people. The economy is doing just fine here in the US, the PHB's found out the hard way you can't just ship everything overseas. If you need to learn a language to better market yourself, I suggest AJAX.

Re:And yet...

[DaedalusHKX]

Okay, you're digging for a hostile reaction... what year psyops class did you graduate from?

Seriously. If the government borrows (with interest) money (which is unconstitutional also, but that is besides the point, i'm sure that the US constitution is "inaccurate" for your purposes also), and then uses that money to pay its mounting war debt, then please enlighten me how it is that we can pay off that debt?

I can fully understand your love of the debt based fiat money system. You've probably read plenty of brochures and very little of the writings of our founding fathers or even those preceding them.

You remind me of the American "Christians"(televangelists like Pat Robertson notwithstanding) of today, screaming for the blood of Iraqis, Venezuelans and whoever else is the enemy flavor of the month based on the constant repeating of 9/11 9/11 9/11 remember 9/11... on news, in speeches, you name it.

You are well indoctrinated my young "friend". Which means I'm going to try to talk to you until I'm blue in the face. You return back to your 2006 economics manuals, while I'll try to figure out why it is that Eric Blair's 1984 Proletariat is so prevalent in the USA...

Future developer opportunities in the US

[twasserman]

There are smart people and talented developers all over the world. The results of the recent ACM Programming Contest http://icpc.baylor.edu/icpc/Finals/ show that very clearly. Salaries and overhead costs for developers (and everyone else) in Eastern Europe, Latin America, Asia, and India, are far less than salaries in North America, so American developers are at a significant competitive disadvantage from purely a financial perspective. US companies will continue to send software development work offshore. Thomas Friedman explains all of this very well in The World Is Flat, which I highly recommend.

That said, there are lots of great opportunities for developers in North America, as long as you think about how to differentiate yourself from an average cubicle-based, head-down code jockey. One way is to develop an outstanding professional reputation as a developer, perhaps through a visible role on a popular open source project. That recognition can sustain a successful consulting business.

Another way is to use your technical skills in a customer-facing role, perhaps as a system engineer at a software or system vendor, providing onsite support and custom development for a customer. That role requires good communication skills and an upgraded wardrobe, but can't easily be replicated by someone halfway around the world. The downside of this role is that you don't get to contribute to a product and you may find yourself in a product niche. But companies always need technical people who can talk to customers and prospective customers.

A third way is to envision a career path leading to become a senior engineering manager or a CTO. You can start as a developer with the full expectation that your code-writing days may be limited. Accordingly, you begin to network with managers to learn more about their work (and let them know of your interest in a management role), and take some management and/or business-related courses. Make an effort to understand how your current and envisioned future positions fit into your company's business strategy, since that can help you pick the projects on which to work. Speak up in meetings, volunteer to be the techie in your company's trade show booth, and generally make yourself visible as someone looking for more responsibility. Be prepared to leave your current position if that responsibility isn't forthcoming.

The US has become one of the most expensive countries for employers, not just because of relative salaries, but also because of health insurance costs, litigation, and regulatory costs. As a result, if a job can be done effectively elsewhere, it is either already there or likely to migrate there soon. This is true not just for software development, but also for lots of other "white collar" jobs. Of course, most of the manufacturing jobs are already long gone. But that's a whole other discussion.

Re:Learn a new language?

[Ohreally_factor]

I constantly have to ask them to repeat, speak up, and/or move the mouthpiece closer.

And eventually you have to ask them to pull up to the window.

"I couldn't tell if you were asking for the apple pies, or the extra large fries."

my own 2 cents...

[Czapahnda]

I will pass you the very, very boring details about the economics behind it all but here's a couple of points you may find interesting that I garnered during my *exciting* academic career studying the economics of the software industry:

- Yes, jobs are moving abroad. But most of the time they are what are known as "low value-added" jobs - not the leading edge, cool, revolutionary new programming but the mundane old stuff such as debugging, maintenance, hotlining (gasp), etc... A lot of what is done abroad is actually adapting American or European programs to local languages.
- High value-added jobs will probably still be found in the states for a few years to come. Why is this? Well as mentioned above, the training you will receive in the US will always carry some kudos (here or abroad) because of the US's reputation as a technology leader. Secondly, knowledge in IT tends to be geographically concentrated (see Route 128, SV, etc). This is in large part due to the *nature of knowledge*. I'll pass you the boring theory but basically, interaction with your peers, frequently possible in such an environment as SV, has been found to be very important in learning about new techniques, languages, etc. Also as there is a concentration of skilled labourers in those areas, firms keep wanting to settle there (self-reinforcing geographic concentration)
- Excellent coders will always find work. All right, you may have to compromise and be willing to move abroad if required. But if you're good at what you do, keep up to date with the latest languages etc, you will always find work.
- IT is everywhere. Even if you do not end up working in the industry per se, ALL industries use computers, and there are a lot of possibilities in that. Take for example the bio-technology industry: there is a shortage of biologists who know how to code, so a lot of their bioinformatics development is done by IT graduates.

Now my advice to you, young grasshopper: go into IT if you really want to. Believe me, unless you love it, the many many years at college as well as the hours devoted in your spare time learning new languages and garnering experience on your own projects etc, will be pointless: you'll end up not liking your job, and chances are you won't be very good at it (there is a strong element of passion required, I believe, to be the best at your job). If you want money, go into consulting, bio-technology, or run for Congress.

If this is what you really want to do, my tips would be:
- Start learning now: there is no substitute for experience. You can already pick up the basics - it will make college easier anyway
- Keep up to date. Languages evolve, and it's always worth keeping up to date with what is relevant in the marketplace nowadays
- Open Source software is an excellent opportunity to learn (if not only by looking at code other have written and seeing how stuff works, but also by adding your own bits and getting feedback on your work). Your contributions also work as a signal to the marketplace: when writing your CV you can add that you contributed to X/Y/Z project, and your potential employer can actually track down what you wrote and be astounded by how wonderful you are, decide to hire you on the shot, and give you a billion dollars (well maybe not the last part)
- And just to be safe, learn mandarin...

Re:Students, please note the above response

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Its 25 years later and I'm in charge of the technology for a fortune 1000 sized firm, I make $150K and I work 45 hour weeks.

And post anonymously on Slashdot. How exactly is this a success story?

Re:Learn a new language?

[SageMusings]

Yes,

Go and see all the false job listings planted by resume-hoarding head hunters. There are some legitimate ones, too. Those that demand experience with every language and methodology spawned in the last 10 years for a mere $30K per year.

IT in America is in decline. If you pursue development, you do it because you love it. Just be warned that you will

1) Never make much money
2) Never have anything resembling job security
3) Always be on the bottom rung of every coporate ladder.

There are exceptions...but they are only exceptions.

Buggy whip makers? They're online....

[John Murdoch]

[OP:] If you're great at what you do, there will always be a market for your skill set.

Tell that to the great buggy-whip manufacturers

Hi!

Sorry, but you happened to trigger one of my pet rants. People DO still make buggy whips--and they make buggies, and carts, and drays, and all sorts of horse-drawn conveyances. And they have web sites.

And since I have some knowledge of how prosperous some buggy manufacturers are, and also recruit and hire electrical and computer engineers, I'd venture to guess that the original poster was correct--if you're good at what you do, you'll succeed at whatever you do. I'd be willing to bet money that the family that owns Smucker's Harness does substantially better than your average electrical engineer.

Cheers!

John Murdoch
(Who spent the late afternoon breaking a pony to drive a carriage, and has two buggy whips on his shopping list.)

Re:Do what you're good at

[ErikZ]

Eh? You were serious about that?

What isn't part of a network or a system when dealing with computers? And all of IT I've been exposed to can be boiled down to "Problem solving."

I don't see how you can say you don't have time to train someone. You're filling in the IT position, on top of what you already do. For over a year. You've been interviewing for months, you see what your ad is bringing in.

So, it's either one of two things,
1. There's something wrong with the ad, it's not communicating effectively.
2. You're not perceiving the environment correctly, and acting in a way that isn't bringing you the results you want.

Hey look, it's problem solving. ;-)

Ah well, I'm sure posting on Slashdot has gotten you a nice stack of resumes. Good luck.

Re:Learn a new language?

[bwanagary]

*KNOW* what you want! Understand what business you're in.
If you want to be in the business of making money, go into sales.
If you want to be in the business of making technology to make other people rich and be allowed to work hard until you burn out, be a techy.
If you want to not work too hard, not burn yourself out, and basically have little accountability, go into management.

My viewpoint

[HonerJetso]

Having been recently dismissed from a 6 year IT career in the UK I have witnessed the market shift totaly. This may just be the organisation that I worked for but I get the impression that it something that is occuring in all the major organisations, specifically those who are outsourcing. In my first few years on the job, my IT skill set kept me in my position. My ability to provide solutions to problems and know my way around a number of languages, products etc. Towards the end of my tenure what became more usefull was my ability to sit in meetings, say yes to the right people and stop my ear catching on fire when on 4 hour long conference calls on the mobile phone. My eventual dismissal came after breaching health and saftey regulations (Driving too many miles in a day, completing a task that was neither IT related or with any significance to the business from what I could see). I am lucky because my previous management team had left the shop floor a number of years ago and have been after my services within an hour of the announcement being made. The new breed of IT people being recruited have no technical degree, infact an IT degree is not a requirement, knowing who to call and who to outsource too is the current requirement. I would like to say that I took the fall as a cost saving measure, but the new breed start on significantly more. Personally I love working in IT, or IT as it was before. Now I have serious doubts, everyone I speak to tells me to contract and to be honest if working in a permanent IT position means that I have too spend a whole morning speaking to dozens of different people in a number of countries to arrange for a task to be completed that would honestly only take up 30 mins of my own time if I was to do it myself then I don't really wish to stay in the industry. I am hoping that I have got out at the right time, I doubt it though....

Sure Sherlock, we Mexicans will destroy US economy

[jotaeleemeese]

When Spain and Portugal joined the EU, the cries of panic from the workers (and populists, xenophobes and all such distinguished ilk) in richer countries (Germany and France back then) was immediate.

The rich countries were going to be swamped, the jobs were going to be gone, disaster could not be averted.

20 years later Spain and Portugal are prosperous countries, France and Germany are struggling.

But you will find impossible to find any sane economist of politician that would blame Portuguese or Spanish immigration for the problems of France and Germany.

Most likely you will find that the protectionist policies of France and Germany combined with a rigid job market are to blame. Most serious imigration studies (i.e. not sponsored by Neonazis) say that immigration has a positive net effect in the society that receives the immigrants.

You say that unskilled Mexicans take US jobs. Well, if my unskilled compatriots can take jobs that US people could be doing then you should question how bad your education system is, since unskilled people can take those jobs (you guys have an average of High School education or thereabouts. If we can beat you with 6 or 8 years less of education, either we are tremendsouly clever or you are brain dead. Most likely we are not competing for the same jobs).

Mexicans take the jobs that nobody else wants (cleaners, dish washers, gardeners, cotton or tomato pickers, etc) filling inneficiencies in the US economic system (if the Mexicans did not do those jobs, who would Mr Sherlock?)

And Mexicans do it gladly expecting little or nothing in return. Until now at least, we are a patient bunch. We demand nothing for long, but once we get tired we get down to bussiness to get what is rightly ours.

Mexicans (and other poor immigrants) are not taking skilled or semiskilled jobs, they are taking the jobs they can do (unskilled ones), so square this circle for me Sherlock:

-Who would do the jobs Mexicans are doing now?
-How would you remove 10 million or more people doing productive work?
-Who will be rushing to cover those positions once the Mexicans were stopped or gone?

I really wish that the US goverment and racists and xenophobes that circle them were really serious about building that 2000km wall in the Rio Bravo.

Nothing would provide me more pleasure than them retreating once the people doing productive work in the US, the families that otherwise would not have a clean house or a nice nanny looking after their children and in general the people benefitting from Mexicans' work in the US, once these people gave the xenophobes a reality check.

But the US government is not stupid. They know that by pretending to be though without actually doing anything they get to have their cake and eat it: on the one hand they placate the xenophobes, on the other hand they get fresh workers (never mind if a few hundred die while crossing the border every year) badly needed by the US economy (hint Sherlock: if there were no jobs in the US Mexicans will not go there. We are badly treated and insulted in the US, it is the need that make us go there).

Finally, before you blame the Mexican goverment for not taking care of its citizens, I just want to remind you that when we elected our first democratic leader your embassador backed a murderous general that executed it. That was followed by 70 or so years of a "perfect dictatorship" as one of the greatest writers in Latinamerica put it.

Your country keeps our countries poor, and reaps the cheap labour, pretending to be offended by the "invassion" in the process. A real work of evil genius.