A Contrarian View of FFVII

This week is seeing the commercial release of Advent Children, so it's appropriate to see Jeremy Parish discussing the original game. However, he's got a slightly different take on the game than you might be used to. Seen via GameSetWatch. From Parish's article: "What better way to sell to people than by speaking directly to them? Cloud Strife is the everynerd -- wrapped up in delusions of greatness when allowed to take things on his own carefully-selected terms until he sees the world for what it is and is forced to come to grips with the fact that he's actually completely pathetic. That's your average game-obsessed message board dork in a nutshell: the petty tyrant of a tiny little niche of the Internet but a failure in real life. It's the kind of parable Jesus would have been proud to have shared with the hungry masses between bites of magical fishloaf, the cigarette ad of nerd coming-of-age stories -- a promise to nerdlings that if you face down your demons, accept your failures and struggle to move beyond them, you'll save the world and your childhood crush will fall madly in love with you."

Comments

Contrarian?

[EggyToast]

I thought it was already established that there were a large number of people who didn't like FF7 when it came out, and more who changed their mind as time went on?

For many people, it was the first Final Fantasy game that they played, so it's obvious why there are many who hold it in high regard. But it's sluggishly paced and the characters are mostly interchangeable towards the end game, despite their roles (or lack thereof in some cases) in the story.

Re:Contrarian?

[techpawn]

We're not naming names on the useless ones *cough* yuffie *cough*

Re:Contrarian?

[TheCarp]

Yah it was certainly no FFI...now there was a game with a deep story line and amazing character development.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the Final Fantasy series, and have played most of them to the end. However, they have always been kind of cheesy in alot of departments.

Actually, my main problem is that they seem to have become alot more movie-like since around VII. The first several hours of some of them is just like watching a movie with very little actual interaction beyond running the battles.

I long for them to bring back the feel of the old games, like I, II, and III (US release numbers, never went back for the japanese release versions).

-Steve

Re:Contrarian?

[falcon5768]

I agree, compared to FFVI iit was kinda a dissapointment, like they spend forever on the graphics and forgot that a good story has to well infact, HAVE a story.

Not to say that VII didnt have a good story, but once Aries dies, its well kind of a letdown. Here they are building and building and building and then bame, shes dead and the story just takes a nosedive into emoville.

If they had made it so that Cloud made the ultimate sacrafice at the end and comes to the conclusion that he needs to, I have a feeling a lot of the ending could have been saved. But then we wouldnt have AC.

Re:Contrarian?

[voice_of_all_reason]

Hey, without her there wouldn't be such a... erm... lively doujinshi market!

Re:Contrarian?

[techpawn]

If that's your agrument for the ninja wanna be, we'd like to bring our next witness to the stand: Tifa...

Re:Contrarian?

[ZiakII]

We're not naming names on the useless ones *cough* yuffie *cough*

Beat the game using intial weapons, no materia, and no accessorys.. and you would see yuffie is one of the most important characters!

no I don't have a girlfriend... why do you ask?

Re:Contrarian?

[hackwrench]

Great, a person who's only concept of RPG is tabletop RPG. Couple that with a lack of metaphysical understanding, and value system that says what he likes in a game is what everyone should like in a game, and you've got one person who has no standing in reviewing games period.

On top of that he's seriously emotionally repressed. Apathy is about as emotionally stable as death is medically stable.

Also, he's reading a lot into the game. I never thought that Tifa was Zack's girlfriend, and besides Cloud and Tifa grew up together.

Then there's his stereotype of the average Final Fantasy player. On what basis is he judging the success or failure of a life?

He calls FFVII a winnowing rod. Well I honestly believe that generally those who like the game to varying degrees are better off than those who don't.

Re:Contrarian?

[Anonymous Coward]

I never thought that Tifa was Zack's girlfriend, and besides Cloud and Tifa grew up together.

They were few and far between but there were hints of Tifa and Zack seeing each other.

Re:Contrarian?

[Cecil]

it's sluggishly paced and the characters are mostly interchangeable towards the end game, despite their roles (or lack thereof in some cases) in the story.

You know, the same thing could be said about any of the later FF games. 8? Most definitely. 9? Pretty much, yeah. 10? Very much so. Even Final Fantasy 6(3) had the same issue due to the fact that anyone could use Espers to learn any and every spell, although at least the special abilities were somewhat unique and non-interchangable. But really, you rarely needed any special abilities once your raw damage output could reach up to of 9999 per turn or beyond with the Genji Glove and/or Offering. FF5 was *built* around the concept of having interchangable characters with the job system.

FF2 was the only North American FF game where your characters had hard, defined roles. Rydia was a caster, Cecil was a fighter, Rosa was a healer, and so on. Even though you could deck him out in White Mage equipment, there was no way to make Cecil become a caster, short of his tiny underpowered complement of white magic spells. Even if you tried to give her decidedly uber equipment and put her in the front row, Rydia would never be any good at melee fighting. Her stats simply did not allow it.

FF7 was and remains my favourite of the FF series. It was not my first, nor my last, but it is my favourite. I hated the Materia system, but I loved the characters and to a lesser extent the storyline. And I detect a note of truth in this guy's suggestion that Cloud was the ultimate geek hero. I think that to some extent I identified with him. I wanted him to save the world and get the girl, because that's what I would've wanted.

I don't think there was any need to be offensive about the way he said it, but I think there is some truth to what he's saying.

Re:Contrarian?

[zerocool^]

Not to mention the plot holes that you can drive a semi-truck through.

Most of the people that like that game like it due to nostalgia - they never had an SNES, it was the first console RPG they played, etc etc. But, I agree. The game is just awful. I was happy when Aris died. The characters are cookie cutter. The story DRAGS ON FOREVER. The end guy is too easy. The sidequests are stupid. In the end, everybody dies anyway, even though she "saved the world".

~W

Re:Contrarian?

[zerocool^]

The problem you mention in FF3/6 is simply that the game will level you up too quickly; or, more accurately, there are a number of sidequests in the World of Ruin that people won't pass up on. Think: If you were playing it for the first time, would you sit there and hammer away at Intangir on Gogo's island in the World of Balance before the floating continent? I wouldn't. Or, in the world of ruin... would you try to get every character + Umaro and Gogo? Nope, I would have stopped once I had a good compliment of Celes, Sabin, Edgar, Terra, Shadow, Mog, and maybe Gau.

People get overpowered in FF3, and then wonder why the game gets lame. You're not supposed to be able to do 9999 damage 8 times per round with Genji Glove + Offering! You're not supposed to be able to cast 3 ultima spells per round for 4 MP (magic box / economizer, Ult. Haste Ult. Ult.). You (and I) are overpowered by the end of the game BECAUSE we love it so much that we explore every nook and cranny. We do the phoenix cave. We beat all 8 dragons. We get Tritoch and beat doom gaze. We upgrade Odin to Raiden. We de-curse the cursed shield. We do Elbot's rock. We get the Water Rondo.

If you were speed running the game, it would be much harder.

~Will

Re:Contrarian?

[Impotent_Emperor]

And FFVI was a disappointment compared to FFV. Of course, I haven't completed FFV yet, but at this rate, it's already turning out to be more interesting.

Re:Contrarian?

[Dashcolon]

"Not to say that VII didnt have a good story, but once Aries dies, its well kind of a letdown. Here they are building and building and building and then bame, shes dead and the story just takes a nosedive into emoville."
I wasn't aware that the greek god of war made an appearance in the game. The story, in my opinion, was far more detailed than any other FF. Six was a great game in it's own right, but claims that it had a better plot or character development than 7 should be met with raucous laughter.

Re:Contrarian?

[Das Modell]

FF7 was and remains my favourite of the FF series. It was not my first, nor my last, but it is my favourite. I hated the Materia system, but I loved the characters and to a lesser extent the storyline.

I loved the Materia system, it was very interesting.

And I detect a note of truth in this guy's suggestion that Cloud was the ultimate geek hero. I think that to some extent I identified with him. I wanted him to save the world and get the girl, because that's what I would've wanted.

You make it sound like it was some happy Hollywood ending. Maybe it was, but I never saw it that way. The game felt very dark and sad because of Aerith's death. I remember feeling sad at the end of the game. Anyway, I could tell by just the article's summary that the guy is full of shit and not worth listening to. In fact, I didn't even bother reading the article.

Re:Contrarian?

[c_forq]

and besides Cloud and Tifa grew up together.

Umm... I could be wrong because it has been awhile but wasn't it revealed in the game that Cloud never grew up with Tifa, that he kind of "stole" Zack's memories, putting himself in Zack's place?

Re:Contrarian?

[despisethesun]

Tifa and Cloud did grow up together. That part was never in question. Tifa never contradicted it, though there were parts of his story that he made up when he was telling it to the rest of the cast at the inn at Kalm. Tifa isn't the girl he was talking about, though. It's been a while since I've played the game, but I'm pretty sure there were a lot of hints that Zack had been Aeris' boyfriend. She even mentions an ex-boyfriend that was in SOLDIER when she notices Cloud's "Mako eyes".

I feel a little dirty discussing this with so much seriousness.

Re:Contrarian?

[Malakusen]

Yeah, FFIX had a happy ending, with the guy getting the girl and everyone winding up fairly whole and hearty.

Re:Contrarian?

[Koiu Lpoi]

It's the "Halo Effect". It's the first decent game someone has played in a particular genre, and thus it gets labeled "The best thing since bread and butter."

Re:Contrarian?

[heinousjay]

Oh, I spend all my raucous laughter on the people who like 'playing' those melodramatic soap operas.

Re:Contrarian?

[John Courtland]

You are able to resurrect Aries, but only in the Japanese version or if you have a game shark. If I remember correctly, you need three items before you move on to disc 2 in order to resurrect her, and what Square did was put a locked door in front of an area that has one of the required items that can't be opened until Disc 2. This effectively makes it impossible to bring her back without learning Japanese or hacking the game.

Re:Contrarian?

[thre5her]

*wipes tears from eyes*

that was...beautiful...

Re:Contrarian?

[RealmRPGer]

Isn't that a bit ironic, considering she's the one that hordes materia like nothin' else?

Re:Contrarian?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahaha... the water rondo.

I'm guessing I'm not the only one who experimented for days to see each character's low-HP special attack, eh?

Re:Contrarian?

[RealmRPGer]

Requesting proof.

Re:Contrarian?

[cascino]

This is an example of a bad rumor that will never die. There is no way to resurrect Aeris. Period. I have owned the Japanese version since it was released in January of 1997 and I can assure you there is no such feature.

Re:Contrarian?

[RealmRPGer]

The only thing I remember is Aeris and Zack were a couple. Afaik Tifa only met Zack once, and she was giddy with excitement to see Cloud (who, as far as she knew, didn't show up). And then later, when Cloud does in fact reveal himself, Tifa gets all emotional and happy. Doesn't seem like she was ever interested in Zack to me.

Re:Contrarian?

[masterzora]

Mommy... why didn't they use Phoenix Down on Aerith?
</little kid voice>

Re:Contrarian?

[zerocool^]

negative.

Re:Contrarian?

[John Courtland]

My sister managed to do it with a game shark. Perhaps you can't in the Japanese game, that was simply something I read and can't confirm myself, but you most certainly can defeat the game with Aries in the party.

Re:Contrarian?

[An Ominous Cow Erred]

You can add Aerith/Aeris back into the party manually, sure -- that doesn't mean she'll be in the STORY at all. She won't have any dialogue (aside from generic lines that EVERY character says exactly the same) and sometimes the game will crash with her in your party.

In other words you just swapped character data into your party, she's not actually "there" story-wise.

Re:Contrarian?

[Anonymous Coward]

The end guy is too easy.

Would you play a game where the end guy couldn't be beaten? Yes, Sephiroth was easy to beat, if you had gone through all the side quests to level up, power up, and get all the best Materia and equipment. If you didn't, he would be harder. There are also challenges harder than the end boss if you want to test your characters -- Emerald and Ruby Weapons.

The sidequests are stupid.

That's your opinion. Frankly, I enjoyed a lot of the side quests and subgames -- some of them had tangible rewards in terms of Materia, equipment, and/or Limit Breaks. Some had less tangible rewards, as they told you more about the story.

In the end, everybody dies anyway, even though she "saved the world".

Well yes, everybody dies eventually. If you mean everyone died as a result of the last battle, you're incorrect. Rmemeber the time stamp of the last scene of the game -- I don't think the last battle is the cause of death for most of the characters that are dead when that scene was set.

To each their own, though. You don't like FF7, but I do. I'm sure I wouldn't like some of the movies/games that you do.

Re:Contrarian?

[Ayaress]

Not so much a speed run - try the low level challenge. At an average character level of 8, Kefka is one hell of a hard fight.

Re:Contrarian?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aries Dies??!! I haven't reach that part yet you insensitive clod!!

Re:Contrarian?

[falcon5768]

but the story ends with her death. People try to claim the shadows are parts of the original JP data for her, but all research and evidence points to the fact that much like the twins in 4 in the original version as well as rereleases, shes dead and never comes back.

all the gameshark does is force the data in, but depending on where you are, you can actually crash the game doing it.

Re:Contrarian?

[zerocool^]

Oh, that brings to mind another point about the game. When you get most new characters, their level is based on the level of your existing characters, plus or minus a modifier that's static.

So, when you get Sabin, if edgar, locke, and terra are lvl 6 (reasonable), Sabin will be lvl 7 or 8. If your characters are lvl 30 (you used frameskip to level them up), sabin will also be around lvl 30.

So, if you spend the time at the begining of the game, then everything from then on our is cake.

It's better this way...

[Qzukk]

accept your failures and struggle to move beyond them

Because obviously trying to improve ourselves is doomed to failure, we're all going to remain permanent virgins for the rest of our lives.

Re:It's better this way...

[RingDev]

Step 1: Move out of mother's basement
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Get laid

-Rick

Re:It's better this way...

[Poltras]

I see you miss the 2nd point... Probably means you've been beyond the first one. There's no one there, man, no one.

Re:It's better this way...

[Kuros_overkill]

Step 1: Move out of mother's basement

Step 2: ...

Step 3: Get laid



no its

Step 1: Move out of mother's basement

Step 2: Get a job

Step 3: ...

Step 4: ???

Step 5: PROFIT

Step 6: Get Laid.

  Remember: Money is a prerequisite to getting Laid.

Re:It's better this way...

[Elad Alon]

Once you accept your shortcomings on the romantic front, you can at least move past them, to hookers. You give up the hope to ever get laid, and settle with paying for sex.

Re:It's better this way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Step 1: Move out of mother's basement

But that would mean facing your demons and moving past the weakness of living in your mother's basement. According to Jeremy Parish, you fail it.

More graphics, less gameplay

[CogDissident]

That was the FFVII revolution: half the game, spread across twice as much time.

I've always thought that FFVI had much more meat to the game. I mean, the plot in 7 wasn't really that great compaired to the plot of the other games. But it had so much flash, it just made peoples eyes glaze over if they hadn't had previous RPG experiance.

I for one am glad that I played RPGs well before FF7 came along, otherwise I think it would have ruined me and made me unable to enjoy graphics and ignore the actual gameplay.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[TooMuchEspressoGuy]

I've always thought that FFVI had much more meat to the game.

I agree completely. In a smaller storage space, and with pixels rather than 3-D models, FF6 managed to tell a much better, richer, and more complex story than FF7. Every one of the many characters had his/her own personality and slice of backstory, and each had his/her time in the spotlight at some point in the game. Oh, and Kefka makes Sephiroth look like a pansy.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[CogDissident]

It's pretty sad that FFVI's Kefka literally dressed like a clown, yet represented a far more significant threat than his successor. Kefka broke the world in his quest for raw power, then ruled over the ruined remains with divine fury; Sephiroth wanted a hug from mommy and babbled a lot.

Advantage: Kekfa.

Yes, he did look like a panzy, compairatively

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Drakin030]

FF7 had a unique plot at its time. Now every game after that is the same thing...Save the world bang the girl. Its becoming to repetitive.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, here's where I'm going to be *genuinely* contrarian by slashdot standards.

I personally think that FF6, while a perfectly good game, was not as good as any of the games which have followed it in the series (including the highly contraversial FFX-2 and FFXI). Why? A few reasons, really.

First of all, the actual gameplay in FF6 isn't actually that great. The system for learning spells from espers is pretty shallow, really, and makes for a good bit of grinding. Later FF games, particularly FF8, FFX and FFXI have tried to do more interesting things with how character and battle mechanics work and have succeeded to varying degrees. In fact, earlier installments in the series had also tried to be more interesting, particularly FF5. FF6 just felt pretty flat by comparison. It's not helped by the fact that very few of the boss fights in FF6 really felt like they needed actual tactics... they mostly just seemed to be a case of "if you can't win now, go grab a couple more levels and try again". This contrasts sharply with some of the more challenging and unconventional fights in later games (FFX-2 is particularly good here), where you have to actually know how to make various skills and abilities work together well to get the win.

Also, the lack of a single main character didn't really do much for me. Sure, FF6 had some good scenes and some fairly memorable characters, but a lot of it struck me as pretty superficial. None of the characters really get all that much depth, besides one or two flashback scenes. I guess the wider cast makes it more likely that every player will find at least one character they can sympathise with, but I'd rather get a bit more depth. Again, even older installments, such as FF4, had done better character work.

Again, not saying that FF6 is a bad game in any way. It has a cool soundtrack, there are some mrmorable scenes and the characters are likeable. However, I think that most of the claims that it's the best installment in the series are based either on nostalgia or on a desire to sound "cool" by trashing the more popular later installments.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Fred Or Alive]

Every one of the many characters had his/her own personality and slice of backstory.

What, even the moogle, the mime, and the abomniable snowman? It's a bit like they decided to have a seperate character for every "class", and by the end ran out of ideas. A few of the other characters are a bit disposable as well IMO. I have a bit of a general dislike of the whole thing in RPGs where you end up with a dozen characters but you can only use about three of them at once, so maybe I'm biased about it...

(My other main issues with FFVI is that I personally can't take a prick in a clown costume seriously as the main villian, and the whole "fighting really nice static images drawn in a completley different style to your own characters" bit about the battle system)

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[TooMuchEspressoGuy]

What, even the moogle, the mime, and the abomniable snowman? It's a bit like they decided to have a seperate character for every "class", and by the end ran out of ideas. A few of the other characters are a bit disposable as well IMO. I have a bit of a general dislike of the whole thing in RPGs where you end up with a dozen characters but you can only use about three of them at once, so maybe I'm biased about it...

Thus why I said "slice of backstory" instead of "complete backstory." All of the characters, at least, have a reason for being (yes, even the moogle and the yeti.)

My other main issues with FFVI is that I personally can't take a prick in a clown costume seriously as the main villian

And what if that "prick in a clown costume" poisoned entire villages, shattered the world, and sent his wrath upon anyone who dared to disobey him? Would you take him seriously, then?

and the whole "fighting really nice static images drawn in a completley different style to your own characters" bit about the battle system)

...which existed in just about every other 16-bit RPG.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[drinkypoo]

The plot in FFVII is not expansive but what I found impressive is that there's so much to do. I think the basic dichotomy between people who do and don't like FFVII is actually over mini-games. People who like mini-games adore FFVII, it was the first game to do them worth a crap. People who don't like mini-games hate it, because some of them are mandatory and in order to accomplish certain things you pretty much have to play them. I mean the whole chocobo thing requires you to race your chocobos just to breed them up in order to get to the point where you can even get one of the characters...

Now, I had played a bunch of console RPGs before FFVII, but it was my first final fantasy experience. I've been playing (off and on) some of the rereleases of the old games that have new interfaces, they are pretty excellent. The old interfaces were what stopped me from playing them before; if I had come across them back in the day I'd have played them, but there's so many games on my list now that playing games with interfaces that poor just doesn't happen.

To date, FFVII is still my favorite final fantasy. It has a tangible quality that is developed only through effort.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Rydia]

au contraire, the minigames were the only part of FFVII I liked. Well, Yuffie and her story were pretty cool. But aside from that, I found it incredibly trite and needlessly convoluted story-wise. That, along with static and cliched characters and the emphasis on Cloud to the exclusion of everyone else ruined it for me.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Fred Or Alive]

Thus why I said "slice of backstory" instead of "complete backstory." All of the characters, at least, have a reason for being (yes, even the moogle and the yeti.)

They're still pretty throwaway, you could easily get rid of half of FFVI's playable characters for the core story to work.

And what if that "prick in a clown costume" poisoned entire villages,shattered the world, and sent his wrath upon anyone who dared to disobey him? Would you take him seriously, then?

Not really. He's a generic evil villian, his only standout feature is he wears a clown costume, and has a stupid theme tune.

and the whole "fighting really nice static images drawn in a completley different style to your own characters" bit about the battle system) ...which existed in just about every other 16-bit RPG.

Most of them that I've played at least aren't as obvious about it as the Final Fantasy games. They could've at least had the enemies and the protagonists drawn in the same style.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Rei]

I know people will hate me for saying this, but Kefka was transparent. He was an Insane Evil Overlord(TM). Kill people with unneeded brutality! Destroy the world for no particular reason! All while dressing like a clown!

I just have trouble seing a character like that as a person. Now, Sephiroth, that was a "villain" I could get behind. Yes, he angsted a fair bit. But he had a plan, a purpose. He had a method to become a God that actually worked well within the framework of the game universe. He wasn't evil for evil's sake - he was purposefully evil.

Of course, here is my greatest heretical notion: that FF8 was a better written game than FF7. No, seriously, I mean it. Compare the dialogue from the earlier FFs (through 7) and later (say, 9; oh dear god, 9 was poorly written) to that in FF8.

Non-8 FFs:
A: "Oh, woe! The world will end!"
B: "WHAT?!?!?!?!!?!!!!?"
C: "Take heart, everyone, we can do it!!!!"
D: "Lets do it... together."
A: "Yes! For the world!!! If we believe in ourselves, we can do it!!!"

VIII did have its fair share of that kind of cliche (it's an FF tradition, after all), just not as much. And certainly not the entire script, as in IX. God, that was awful.

Not that FF8 didn't have its problems. Ultimecia would best be described, to borrow Miss Snark's term, as "aliens that arrive in chapter 14". Squall was deliberately hard to like, and as a video game MC, that's harder to deal with than an unlikable book MC. And lets not even get into the gameplay balance/time issues.

Of course, nothing beats Tactics. I think they were channelling George R. R. Martin on that one ;)

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[shoptroll]

The more I look back on VII the more I think they were trying to adapt VI in a new setting. I find similiarity in Kefka and Sephiroth. Vincent's mystique is no different than Shadow's (only less so since Shadow's backstory is never made clear anywhere). Aeris and Terra are both "specimins" that the main antagonists are looking for.

I don't know if anyone agress with this either. It's been quite some time since I played both so I could be wrong...

Anyways, VII was a good game in the series. I would say it ranks highly within the series, but I am loathe to pinpoint the best game in an ongoing series.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[visgoth]

Save the world bang the girl.

Isn't that pretty much every red blooded male's fantasy? Ok yeah, I suppose you could replace save with enslave, but otherwise...

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Gulthek]

Of course, nothing beats Tactics. I think they were channelling George R. R. Martin on that one ;)

Say what? I never played Tactics but am almost unhealthily obsessed with the Song of Ice and Fire. If you're serious about the great Tactics plot then I predict an addition to my DS (advance) library very soon.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Adam Whisnant]

No no no no no.

The original Tactics, for Playstation, was the one with the good story.

Tactics DS has great gameplay, but the story is ABYSMAL. Irritating, angsty little self-absorbed brats wrapped up in their own fantasy world. Honestly, it features some of the least-likable characters ever.

If you like the style of game, I recommend it heartily. But I suggest you ignore the story.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Swordsmanus]

FFT: Advance has a complete crap story compared to the original FFT. So if you get FFT: Advance, get it for the gameplay, not the story. As a side note, the combat in FFT dominates just about any combat scene Martin has written imo :X

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[timster]

Whatever.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Siffy]

I mean the whole chocobo thing requires you to race your chocobos just to breed them up in order to get to the point where you can even get one of the characters...

Eh? Just curious if there's a 10th character I've never known about. I always thought it was about getting 4 kickass materia (well, 3 kickass, 1 shitty) and access to the Ancient Forest before killing Ultimate Weapon. Which then led to being able to whoop Ruby's butt and give you something useless... A 2nd, but much slower, Gold Chocobo, woohoo! Lame.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[drinkypoo]

You need a chocobo that can run up waterfalls (not the first water-walking color, I forget which is which) in order to get Vincent. Vincent is in a cave on a little lake which you have to run up a waterfall to get to (and up the river itself.)

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Siffy]

No, you get Vincent in the basement of the Shinra Mansion in Nibelheim. You get Vincent's Level 4 Limit Break and "Best Weapon"/8 slot 0 growth in Lucrecia's Cave behind the waterfall. And that cave can be accessed with the submarine, so a Chocobo isn't needed for him.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[despisethesun]

Shadow's backstory gets exposed, but you have to do certain things and go to certain areas with him in your party to do it. It's actually a real pain in the ass to do, but you can find out who he is if you're willing to dig deep enough in the game.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Koiu Lpoi]

Sephiroth is just Magus rehashed. And you don't get to have him in your party.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Rei]

The original Tactics, for Playstation, was the one with the good story.

When I picture the script for the original Tactics being written, I picture someone in a kaiser helmet cracking a whip at huddling writers, shouting, "More characters! Damn you, they better be lost in a sea of plot-critical characters before the game even starts! More political intrigue! More historical parallels! I don't see enough references to 15th century British succession wars and Old English epic poetry in this script!"

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Anonymous Coward]

FFT had a horrible, almost unreadable translation riddled with spelling/grammatical errors and nonsensical sentences (especially the tutorial: "Moving ability is ability tat is move"). The story was too overreaching and got confusing and absurd towards the end. I don't know who George R. R. Martin is, but I do know this: If you play FFT, play it for it's fantastic gameplay, not for it's ludicrous story.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[apoc06]

LMAO.

so im NOT the only one!!!!

seriously, FFT has the best FF story thusfar, IMHO. FFTA was kind of a letdown because after the first stage it was always apparent that nothing was real. you never feel a sense of true urgency or danger, since you know [and are constantly reminded] that youre in some form of hallucination. i loved the gameplay, but i sat it down an never went back about 2/3rds into FFTA.

why arent more RPGs well written dayumit!!!?!?!? the thing i appreciated about the final fantasy series [with X being the biggest notable exception] is the fact that you dont assume the role of some dumb skill-less kid that picks up a sword one day and starts a mystic quest to save the world. is it truly that hard to write an original script for an RPG? the break from the norm is one of the biggest draws of the FF series and why its considered popular in relation to everything else except maybe dragon quest.

Mod TFA down

[Rob T Firefly]

(-1 Flamebait)

Re:Mod TFA down

[linvir]

They actually do this now with the tags. And it's getting kind of pathetic - every other article gets tagged as flamebait or troll just because it's a little controversial. An interesting parallel with the moderation system.

Re:Mod TFA down

[falcon5768]

agreed those tags need to go. it does nothing but promote group think, even moreso than Slashdot promotes currently.

Re:Mod TFA down

[linvir]

No no, not at all. The tags are great, it's the people using them. They aren't being whipped hard enough.

Re:Mod TFA down

[Rob T Firefly]

I agree totally and unequivocally with your agreement and complaint against groupthink, and urge everyone else to do the same.

Er.. WTF

[Turn-X Alphonse]

"The petty tyrant of a tiny little niche of the Internet but a failure in real life"

Maybe it's just me here.. MAYBE.. but isn't life a meaningless exercise of not dying untill you die..? Surely being a failure at life means you're oh.. DEAD!

Maybe we should stop judging people on their job/material goods and go "Hey this guys doing something he enjoys, he's not doing too bad really is he?" Life is not what you own, what you buy or what you want to buy.

Re:Er.. WTF

[linvir]

As a journalist, it's his job, nay, his duty to inform the likes of us mere readers of our most shameful shortcomings. I don't understand why people like you are always wasting our time with these 'independent thoughts', when people like this are already being paid to pre-fabricate opinions and ideas for us.

Get over your stupid little philosophy, sit down, shut up and consume. Maybe if you weren't such an ideological insurgent, the elders would have already picked you out to work as a supplier of opinions alongside the eminent Mr. Parish.

You go ahead and come up with some 'original idea' to counter my arguments, I'm not afraid. My masters in the gaming press will protect me from tyrants like you! Your military training and superhuman strength (apparently you everynerds are all soldiers now) are no match for my robot-like obedience!

Re:Er.. WTF

[sottitron]

He wrote a failure in life not a failure at life.

Go ahead, be contrarian.. but...

[The Living Fractal]

It's ok to be contrarian. You have every right to form an opinion. But I can't help but say I detect a degree of hypocrisy when I read this:

"That's your average game-obsessed message board dork in a nutshell: the petty tyrant of a tiny little niche of the Internet but a failure in real life."

I mean, is it just me, or does it seem like this is exactly what this guy represents, within the context of the very article he has written about it?

The rest of it.. I tried hard to find anything meaningful. But every time I just can't help but think the author has personal experience pushing each word into the keyboard.

TLF

Uh, why would you do this...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, in honour of a video release hes making a really bad review of a really old game? Theres a time and place for everything and personally i think hes just being a troll.

anyone who would be watching the movie obviously *likes* the game. If he wanted to do this, it should of been when the game actully went out.

Re:Uh, why would you do this...?

[CogDissident]

In his defense, it has exactly the same relevance as the movie has to the game.

Its got a few similar places, but mostly the story is confusing and muddled down in "mysterious past" syndrome. Its basically a large number of fight scenes strung together with pretty graphics, just like FF7.

Re:Uh, why would you do this...?

[Anonymous Coward]

personally i think hes just being a troll.

You've never read any of Jeremy Parish's stuff before, have you?

The dude REEKS of elitist trollism. Just go through his site and have a look for yourself.

Re:Uh, why would you do this...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Call me crazy, but I enjoy J. Parish's brand of "elitist trollism".

Holy Cow

[th1ckasabr1ck]

A lot of times I read articles about how gaming journalism needs to be more "professional" and "serious" - Well, if articles like this are the direction people think we should be heading then COUNT ME OUT.

This dude has his head so far up his ass that he doesn't even realize what he is saying anymore. He has "Chris Crawford" syndrome. These poor little people don't even understand what fun is! They have no idea how to derive enjoyment from an entertainment product! They just don't GET it. They don't understand the glory that I could bring if someone would just give me $30 million to deliver my opus upon the world!

Give me a break.

I played FF7 and loved it. I also played Vagrant Story, FFVI, and Chrono Trigger. I've played a huge number of console RPGs since the NES. This is just a case of having some strange glasses on, holding some sort of strange grudge against a cool game, and writing a bunch of filler about it. I wonder why he doesn't go on and on about the amount of hitting AAAAAA through dialogue of:

Terra: "..."
Cyan: "..."

I loved FFVI also, but it wasn't without it's problems. FFVII wasn't perfect either by a long shot, but they're both fun games.

Re:Holy Cow

[linvir]

...

My reasoning

[Traiklin]

the only real reason I enjoyed this game was because of the setting.

I got so sick and tired of seeing the EXACT same setting for every RPG, is there some rule when it comes to making a good RPG that says "You MUST set this in times of dragons and dungeons!"? I understand that they are all based off the D&D games but come on, do they ALL have to take place in the same time frame?

Earthbound, Secret of Evermore, Final Fantasy VI (III in the US), VII all these use the same formula but they exsist in the steam universes (where they are set in the past but have future tech) which is perfect for RPG's.

That's my reasoning for people jumping on FFVII, is that the market was getting saturated with RPG's that took place in the same time frame no matter what...kind of like now, the most popular MMORPG's seem to all take place in the same time frame when there are so many other routes they can go (and there are some that are giving it a shot).

Re:My reasoning

[meringuoid]

I got so sick and tired of seeing the EXACT same setting for every RPG, is there some rule when it comes to making a good RPG that says "You MUST set this in times of dragons and dungeons!"? I understand that they are all based off the D&D games but come on, do they ALL have to take place in the same time frame?

Well, let's see...

* checks RPGs on game shelf *

Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Neverwinter Nights: Forgotten Realms, D&D
Morrowind: Vvardenfell, Mournhold and Solstheim, magic mediaeval
Fallout 1 and 2: radioactive future California
Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines: contemporary California
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2: a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away

Four mediaeval D&D style, four futuristic, one present-day. It's not THAT overwhelming. I'm guessing that the tendency among RPGs to mediaevalism is largely due to the established D&D market and game worlds, which save a lot of work in design.

Re:My reasoning

[Rydia]

Star Ocean 1, 2 and 3- future of galaxy which is actually a computer simulation in 5D space, with a smattering of undeveloped planets
Phantasy Star, Xenosaga- high technology in alien worlds
Kingdom Hearts- pretty much everything

There is a LOT of variation that people gloss over because they've only played Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy and simply assume that everything is the same. You get the same thing as far as plots go: people reduce the plots to absurdity to further whatever point they want to make.

Re:My reasoning

[Anonymous Coward]

Earthbound (of which I'm a hardcore fan) was not set in a "steam universe". It was set in a current day earth-like world. The game even tells you that when it introduces the setting as 199X (note that it was released around 93).

The only "future tech" in it was made by a crackpot inventor, or the aliens that were subtly invading. The magic-like elements came from telekinesis (sp) which still fit in with the current day, plus there we hippies, resorts, buses. Nothing at all fitting with the "steam universe" model.

And from what I remember, secret of evermore was set in something like a dark age/post-apocalyptic world where all technology was lost, so life became more primitive. I could be confusing it with another game: I played a lot of NES/SNES RPGs, and mostly just rentals since I beat them all in about 3 days of solid playing.

Re:My reasoning

[Anonymous Coward]

Secret of Evermore was actually set in a virtual world, where it's creator his grandaughter and his colleagues were all stranded in it until the hero came in.

All the areas in it had different themes, one land being prehistoric, another taking place in an ancient Rome-type setting, another taking place in a midievil setting. The last one was futuristic though.

Too bad it was panned by critics, and fans, for not being Secret of Mana 2. It would've been at least a good game in people's opinions if it were, maybe, released alongside it.

Re:My reasoning

[shoptroll]

Earthbound is steam universe?

Ummm... check your facts. It's sci-fi set in a modern context. You cut out the alien technology (sky runner, psi, phase distorter) and you're left with modern day.

Evermore is just a giant cyberworld where each area has a "theme" of some epoch.

Final Fantasy VI i guess is steam... Narshe is entirely run on steam... But there's always been some element of high technology mixed with fantasy in the series. Some games just gravitate to one side of the line more than others. VII and VIII being a couple of the more technology centered games.

Re:My reasoning

[hal2814]

Right. Now how many of those came out before FFVII? The GP's assertion is quite correct in the context of when the game was released.

Re:My reasoning

[Siffy]

Hey hey now. We'll have none of that. Take your "logic" and "thought" and "context" elsewhere.

Whoa there

[voice_of_all_reason]

he's actually completely pathetic.

I think I speak for all of us when I say I'm glad that most basement nerds aren't commiting terrorism (bombing a power stations), attempted murder (attack on Rufus), and having unsafe, preparital sex (what do you think that fade-to-black with Tifa outside the highwind was?)

Re:Whoa there

[jandrese]

How do we know it was unsafe?

For all we know Cloud had to go on a side quest where he slotted up his condom with lube materia.

Re:Whoa there

[voice_of_all_reason]

Probably "size", "speed plus", and "exit", lol amirite?

Re:Whoa there

[drinkypoo]

Uh no. The only important materia to have equipped would be final attack and phoenix.

Yes, I am a nerd.

FF7 article

[Turn-X Alphonse]

Personally I'd say skip the article. The poor writer clearly has no clue about anything but "being cool" in the geek way. For example "Of course, to call FFVII a role-playing game is to stretch the term to the point where it gets so thin you can see the veins through its skin"

Last time I checked playing a role could be where you have full control and make the character (western sandbox style RPGS), or where you take the hero and play as him, to tell the story (Eastern RPGs). The entire article comes across as a poorly written FF7 troll from the early 00s.

I may not be an FF7 fan (I'm sick of the fanboys, who isn't?), but when you claim it had poor music you know they're nuts. FF music has always been very good and although 7 isn't exceptionally good it's still not bad.

Plus I won't even go into the crap about Tomb raider. It's like a 10 year old going "LOL BLACK AND WHITE TV SUCKS!", because they live in an era where they can "see zee future!" and totally ignore the current climate for the object.

Re:FF7 article

[drinkypoo]

I'd like to know what kind of idiot doesn't realize that no computer RPG that isn't multiplayer can actually involve roleplaying? If you're picking from a list of responses, you're not playing a role, you're taking a test. Final fantasy (and most other console RPGs) does away with this by simply providing you scripted dialogue, while you make in-game choices by doing things or not doing things. Most console RPGs have gone the same way, because why bother?

As for the quality of the FFVII music, well, I disagree with him on that too. The primary problem with the music is that it sounds like crap because it's played on synth, and since Square realized that the expectation is for CD-quality music, they put less emphasis on the music. If you get your hands on the FFVII Orchestral soundtrack, it's fantastic - and of course, Sephiroth's theme is the best.

Re:FF7 article

[spun]

You can roleplay without it being interactive. So you're choosing premade dialogue. Actors don't even get to do that, and no one would argue whether they are playing a role.

Personally, I think that if you aren't minimaxing every decision but thinking, "What would this character do in this situation?" then you are roleplaying, whether anyone else is watching. In an MMORPG you may be minimaxing, power-levelling and chatting in l33tsp43k and that is NOT roleplaying even if others are around.

Very few single player roleplaying games get me to actually role play though. I mean, no one is watching, so why go to the trouble? It has to be good. Morrowind was the last RPG that actually got me to the point where I would make bad decisions simply because "That's what my character would do."

Re:FF7 article

[Mathonwy]

Bioware has managed to produce quite a few games that I feel have a great deal of roleplaying to them. You can get from point a (the game start) to b (game end) in a LOT of different ways, and there isn't a "right" one. They are different in how your character ends up.

Planescape Torment, Baldur's gate 1,2, KOTR, Jade empire... Fallout, for goodness sake (although not bioware). YOU get to decide who your character is, and how to play them.

Japanese "rpgs" tend to be more of "here are a bunch of characters in a story. Click through ritualized battles, and you'll be rewarded with another chunk of storyline".

I'm not saying that they can't be engaging or fun, but there really isn't much role playing in them.

But, as companies have demonstrated, it clearly IS possible to have non-MMO RPGs that actually encourage role playing. So when you say "I'd like to know what kind of idiot doesn't realize that no computer RPG that isn't multiplayer can actually involve roleplaying?" you're really just showing that you're either not very familiar with the medium, or you have different standards of what "role playing" is.

Oh, and TFA's complaint with the music wasn't so much with the scoring, but with the instrument set.

Re:FF7 article

[drinkypoo]

Planescape Torment, Baldur's gate 1,2, KOTR, Jade empire... Fallout, for goodness sake (although not bioware). YOU get to decide who your character is, and how to play them.

Now, I've beat Torment, and I don't remember any features in there that used conversational AI to allow me to have real conversations with anyone... Probably because it's not possible and if it were, it would not be desirable.

you're really just showing that you're either not very familiar with the medium, or you have different standards of what "role playing" is.

Yes. I have standards. See, I don't think that picking from one of a few canned responses is equal to roleplaying, even if some responses only appear if you have the key item or a certain statistic is over a given threshold. That's not roleplaying! It's being a digital sheep.

Re:FF7 article

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to know what kind of idiot doesn't realize that no computer RPG that isn't multiplayer can actually involve roleplaying?

Can you try that again without the quadruple negatives?

Contrarian? More like asking for it...

[Kaellenn]

Everything about this article yells: "I couldn't get attention on myspace so I'm gonna try to piss off as many people as possible."

Honestly, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but the entire tone of this article is "I'm calling you an idiot; what're ya gonna do about it?"

Tripe

[Anonymous Coward]

STUFF THAT MATTERS

squueeenix isn't squaresoft

[awing0]

The old Squaresoft we know isn't anymore. This FF VII movie just proves it. It's one of the only things they have that might spawn a successful franchise (besides NEW and GOOD FF games). If this movie goes over well, expect to see more of the same old thing. I thought the FFs were just ONE game, no sequels and no returning characters. I guess that changed with X-2 and the marketing engine that is now in full swing.

Amano (Artwork for 1-6) is long gone. Yoshida (FF Tactics) is designing the new FF XII. Uematsu (music composer) is also gone.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I think SE is the EA of RPGs now.

Re:squueeenix isn't squaresoft

[Rydia]

The Enix half is alive and well, thank you very much. Star Ocean III (with Tri-Ace) and Dragon Quest VIII are two such examples of absolutely fantastic modern games.

Re:squueeenix isn't squaresoft

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely agree!

When I first saw the square-enix logo I was scared that my favourite RPG producing company was no-more. Dragon-Warrior 4 is my all time favourite RPG (I also played 1 (the first RPG I played, 2, 3, 7, 8, but the translated roms on 5 and 6 were unplayable for me), and I quite liked Star Ocean, despite the poorly written interactions between characters.

Lucky for me and the few other Enix fans out there, it seems like Enix got to use what resources they wanted from square, and make their own awesome games with them.

Why I loved DW4:
1. Extensive, and interesting plot.
-5 chapters (seemingly unrelated but brought together in fifth)
-Interesting characters (except slimey and Alena's companions)
-Enemies that have a reason to be insanely powerful
-Arch-villian actually has a purpose in destroying the world as we know it
-No sappy love story between Hero and others (they have better reasons for being together)
-etc.
2. Many unique characters to use
-Mages and Healers have different spells and physical stats
-Fighters (ragnar/alena) have variety in equipment, speed, power, and defence
-Hero is perfectly well rounded
-Taloon = WTF? (Awesome character - none like him anywhere else)
3. A plethora of hidden items, and leveling up (I like levelling up in most Enix games)
-Also plenty of full world exploration throughout the game
4. Battle system in Chapter 5
-Only able to control Hero
-Characters each behave differently
-Swapping out characters (even dead ones) in mid-battle provided you have the wagon
-good ol' turn-based
5. Completely first person in Ch. 5
-Don't use main character until ch. 5
-No default name
-No speach apart from yes/no, but written not in a "why doesn't he/she talk" sort of way.
-can be male or female
-Aforementioned battle system accentuates this nature
6. Well designed timing for accumulating party members (levels and abilitys closely match those of current members)

And I could go on, but I doubt anybody really cares as much as I do. In all seriousness though, if you can get past the NES graphics and music, you should check this game out, and take your time.

Re:squueeenix isn't squaresoft

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say the Square side isn't doing that too bad either, what with a five year old mmorpg racking in about 20$ (32$CND from me) a month from around 500,000 users. However, that may support the SE being the EA of RPGS after all.

Re:squueeenix isn't squaresoft

[Anonymous Coward]

There's still Konami (Suikoden, etc.), Namco (Tales, Xenosaga, etc), Atlus (Shin Megami Tensei), Nippon Ichi (Disgaea, etc), and others. The Square of the past may be gone, becoming the EA of RPGs, but other companies are still churning out good games.

Re:squueeenix isn't squaresoft

[dancingmad]

It's a good thing Yoshida's at the helm. The Final Fantasy games since 6 have been terrible and while Yoshida's made some bold desicions, his work in FFT is a throwback to older games and he seems to bring a lot of that into FF12 (from what I've played here in Japan).

Advent Children continues the tradition...

[Maul]

I've seen the movie. Advent Children continues the tradition of subpar plot paired with awesome visuals, and is basically a huge action sequence with bits and pieces of a dumb plot sprinkled in. The plot may have been cool had they developed it, but that would have gotten in the way of the fights!

Basically, it is worth seeing for the cool effects and the fanboyism of seeing all the characters, but don't go in expecting a coherant plot.

My Life as a Kettle

[Doomstalk]

That's your average game-obsessed message board dork in a nutshell: the petty tyrant of a tiny little niche of the Internet but a failure in real life.

Says the man who A) reviews 7 year-old games B) uses them to insult people.

This man is absolutely correct

[MilenCent]

This is going to provide all kinds of fodder for the Overrated Gremlins that follow me around Slashdot, but....

This article is right on, on just about every point. It's what I always considered to be wrong with VII. From the annoyingness of Cloud Strife, to how VII is everywhere now, to how it wrecked length expectations in the console RPG market, to how it's horribly padded, to the load times. ESPECIALLY the load times. Those are the reasons I got to the 10 hour mark in the PS1 game and lost interest at that point.

These days I'm not really too fond of the earlier games, either, but that didn't stop me from picking up IV on GBA mostly out of a feeling of nostalgia. VII, though, leaves me cold.

Re:This man is absolutely correct

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with him for the most part too. He comes accross as overly fanatical, and very hypocritical, but many points are the same ones I've noticed.

However, I thought the opposite in terms of game times. He claimed a (what he thought long) time of 60 hours. I beat it in 36 hours max. That was without any form of guide; I was even focusing on improving Aeris over all other characters, since I hated Cloud, and didn't know she died half way through. It was a pitifully short game, with most time spent either walking from one place to another, or watching movies.

I remember the RPGs I played on NES/SNES taking much longer (none of them FF). Granted, many of them could be finished fairly quickly, but with all the oportunity to explore (that was actually fun, and with clues scattered throughout the game) I would take much more time. Chronotrigger is an excellent example of this.

After I finished FF7, I played a little more with a guide to find the hidden characters, and do the whole weapon thing, but quickly lost interest. It was also very linear.

Personally, I prefer a game that gives a possibility 80 hours of play pre-ending (and keeps my interest throughout) over a game that has 40 or fewer (even if it has post-ending stuff). Of course the most important thing for an RPG is to keep my interest, if I can get all the special items/characters while still having fun... Bonus!

Last Order DVD

[Nazmun]

Lil 20-30 min animated episode showing a earlier part with Zack that came with the Japanese DVD release was much more enjoyable to me. I wish they continued that instead.

Re:Last Order DVD

[Maul]

I agree on Last Order. I haven't looked at the North American DVD details, but I hope they are including that with the movie. I may still get the Advent Children DVD for the "show off my home theater" factor... not sure.

Re:Last Order DVD

[voice_of_all_reason]

They're not. You had to spend 28,000 yen (like $230) for it in Japan, so no way they'd include it for 20 bucks in the US.

It spoke to me

[Godai]

The author's a little flamebait-astic, but he's right about a lot of things, particuarly FF7's popularity being driven by 'firsties'. Though I have to wonder, if he hated FF7 how much he must despise the trainwreck that was FF8!

It's like he crawled into my head and managed to coalesce a lot of the things I hated about FF7. I never liked it much; it was okay but it never engaged me like the previous FFs did.

Re:It spoke to me

[zerocool^]

Final Fantasy 8 had one thing: the card game.

The damn card game in FF9 is WAY too random. I mean, a 6m15 card should occasionally be able to beat a 6m27 card, but should never be able to beat a Dx7A card.

Other than that, yeah. Give me FF3/6 and FF9.

Re:It spoke to me

[WNight]

What I don't understand is how this "game" where most of the character building is in random battles that (last I looked at FF?) still used the Bard's Tale style of combat (stacks of monsters, front line of PCs, back line of PCs, etc, etc).

It was lame on my Apple2 in 86. In the same era I was playing RPGs like Ultima that let me move each character independently, modify the world (did dungeons stay dead on the console?)

How in any way do you derive even the slightest fun from console RPGs? I admit to only playing a few, but they were all so bad that I read a magazine while everyone else was crowing about pulling zeny coins out of the ground, or slashing yet another stack of monsters with their oversized sword. (Zelda 64 and FF6-8??)

Admittedly, Zelda 64 was a far worse game than FF appeared to be. Whoever made the N64 was probably as smart as a mentally defective rock. The 3rd-person camera would swing to avoid obstacles, meaning you had to then press in a different direction to keep moving straight. Combine this with a "game" where all the puzzles seem to be jumping ones where there's always something to screw with the camera at a critical time... Mario 64 was worse, and the game... dishwater has more personality than the yet another Mario clone.

Dumb.

[menace3society]

This has to be the dumbest "review" of a game I've read in a long time. To sum up his major "arguments" (and I'm committing an injustice to the civility of marital altercations the world over by using this term):

• "I don't like FF7" (not really arguable), "I'm a rational person" (debatable), "therefore no rational people like FF7" (fallacious).
  
• "It's not really an "RPG" according to the classical definition." But then, 90% of D&D sessions I've played in involved about as much role-playing as a random number generator. For better or worse, the term 'RPG' in video games refers to games like Final Fantasy. Get over it.
  
• "The characters are animated inconsistently--there are several versions of each character, with widely varying degrees of realism for each." This is, I suppose, as valid a complaint as any of the author's, but since he spends two paragraphs talking about how great the graphics are (and eventually goes on to complain about how good the graphics were) he does kind of undermine himself here.
  
• "The story is convoluted and weird." This is also true. Too bad FF7 didn't have a plot as good as the original FF, where the ultimate bad guy trying to take over the world is a souped up version of someone you killed in the very beginning, or Suikoden where the King is being controlled by an evil witch--oh wait, no, he's not, he's just love sick.
  
• "Cloud isn't a one-dimensional character who picks one of two personality types and never changes emotional state throughout the game." While technically a true statement, I'm not sure if it counts as criticism.
  
• "Sephiroth is a bizarre and incomprehensible villain, and hence inferior to Kefka." Or, to put it another way, Kefka is a 1970's destroy-the-world-I'm-evil comic book villain, and Sephiroth is a guy with his own neurosis, and motivations (however bizarre). Kefka just does it for the hell of it, really.
  

Basically, what it boils down to, is that this guy wishes all RPGs were still developed for the SNES because things like graphics, characters with personality, and entertainment are all things which subtract from a good RPG.

Re:Dumb.

[ronfar]

The thing I liked about Kefka, is that in the beginning of the game he didn't start out as the main villain, he started out as chief henchman. The character you can compare him to is Dildandau in Escaflowne. They are both creations of the Empire, and they are both insane. However, they are not in charge! Watching Kefka get more and more evil and powerful until he takes over was kind of fun.

Douglas Adams used to really hate characters like Kefka, villains who were just motivated by sheer destructive evil, but I've always had a soft spot for them. Yes, I know, they are common as diamonds, but I still like them.

This is not to say Kefka is complex, he reminds me of that Hawk character in Black Adder. Black Adder succeeds in assembling the six most evil men in England into his gang, and then Hawk shows up and decides to take over. Black Adder says, "But he just wants to kill everyone!" Which, of course, makes Hawk very popular with the six most evil men in England.

However, I'm not complaining about Final Fantasy VII here, because I really liked the Shinra corporation, Rufus Shinra was cool as all Hell.

What is he criticizing? The game or the player?

[shadexiii]

This article smacks of "My opinion is better than yours, and if you disagree, it is because you are wrong." Sure, the game had flaws. Few games don't. Sure, earlier RPGs are arguably far better, and I'll even agree with him on that. I still have a hard time finding a better game than Chrono Trigger in that sense. And yes, I played that long before I played FFVII. Still have a super nintendo on my living room table (Coffee table? There's more cigarette ash on that thing than anything else... Ash table it is then.) specifically so I can load it up from time to time and relive the good ol' days.

Even with the flaws, there were many good aspects of the game. There were reasons people enjoyed it. The story may not have been as "meaty" as some other game stories, but games are no different than movies in this sense. Everyone has their own reasons for liking or disliking a story, be it content, style, whatever.

That being said, his eloquently written work of self-gratification didn't do too much for me. It was written in a style common to bloggers, one he even commented on, about having their small chunk of the net all to themselves, that they rule with an iron fist. This article seems to be less of an attack on the game itself, and more of an attack on the opinions of anyone who thought anything positive of the game.

Opinions are like assholes, people. We all have one, so don't parade yours around like it is made of gold. Sure, share it, but not in a way that implies that it is unique and superior. Arrogance in that form makes it hard for some people to stomach the message, let alone appreciate it.

Parish

[Thad Boyd]

Parish is a great guy, but has terrible taste. Just last week he was singing the praises of the mediocre-at-best Chrono Cross, and he's also on-record bashing Transformers: The Movie.

Re:Parish

[Anonymous Coward]

While singing the praises of Chrono Cross is kind of hard to imagine, I've got some bad news for you: Transformers: The Movie? Ain't that good.

Sorry.

Zzzzzz...

[Quiet_Desperation]

That's your average game-obsessed message board dork in a nutshell:

Well, at least he's self referential.

Never understood the whole fractioning of the FF fanbase. I've played all of them except #11. I enjoyed them all. Even X-2, which was just a bit of fun that seems to offend so many *cough*serious*cough* RPG gamers.

Ah well... Kingdom Hearts II is in my PS2 now, so who cares about anything else? :)

Re:Zzzzzz...

[kyouteki]

And one thing KH2 bucks from the recent (past 10 years or so) Square history is that it clocks in at around 22-25 hours. It probably could have been shortened just a bit (going back to each world asking, "You seen Riku?" got annoying after the first two times or so), but it feels like a very natural length to me.

Hmm, almost there

[Chris Burke]

So he's done a nice job of recognizing that Cloud's dilemna represents what happens when you come to believe your own lies about yourself, how these lies take on a life of their own and gain power over you, and how only by recognizing the lies can you overcome the problems that led you to cover up the truth in the first place. 'A' or 'B' material so far on this work of literary analysis, if we're grading at a high school level.

Thinking that this observation applies to gamers and only gamers? That's a 'D'. From relevent and deep to shallow and stupid in one bad assumption.

TFA in a nutshell.

[dannycim]

In a nutshell, TFA: "I'm cool because, contrary to the masses, I think FFVII sucks and you're idiots if you disagree."

Thanks dude. People who try to force their opinions on others have other nasty habits.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Contrarian? More like asking for it...

[spun]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Even bad attention is better than none, right? The funny thing is, this guy demonstrates every cliche he rants against.

"Personal demon?"

[Guppy06]

"a promise to nerdlings that if you face down your demons, accept your failures and struggle to move beyond them,"

Except, in this case, his demon is this guy who's calling forth a meteor to destroy the world...

You see, everyone has their own personal El Guapo which they must face one day. For some, shyness may be their El Guapo. For others, a lack of education may be their El Guapo. For us, our El Guapo is a big, ugly guy who wants to kill us. But I believe that if the people of this town work together, that they can overcome their personal El Guapos, who in this case happens to be the actual El Guapo.

Re:"Personal demon?"

[Ekhymosis]

Wow, that's a plethora of "El Guapo"'s in there, jefe!

Re:"Personal demon?"

[Guppy06]

Source.

Inconsistencies

[Guppy06]

"Cloud Strife is the everynerd -- wrapped up in delusions of greatness when allowed to take things on his own carefully-selected terms until he sees the world for what it is and is forced to come to grips with the fact that he's actually completely pathetic."

Except he didn't have all that much control over those "carefully-selected terms." He envied Zack, sure, and he didn't dare tell anybody in his hometown that he ultimately failed in his goal, but after having his mind fucked with, Cloud honestly though he was Zack (or at least that he had really lived Zack's life). And the process that fucked up his mind also made him bad-ass enough to pull it off (even Barrett grudingly admitted that Cloud knew what he was doing). If it was a conscious effort to delude himself, Sephiroth wouldn't have been able to manipulate him; he'd know why it was Zack in the photograph.

"and your childhood crush will fall madly in love with you."

Or the story could be interpreted as "Your childhood crush won't notice you exist until you are both

1. The only guy left alive (at least from their hometown) and
2. A total bad-ass that kills things with a sword bigger than he is

It sounds like the author is picking and choosing where to be jaded for maximum effect.

Over-analyzing much?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't get it. Who cares if Cloud wasn't a super-soldier? That whole part of the story is a "Magic Feather" parable; Cloud becomes badass enough to save the world because he fooled himself into thinking he was. Come on, now; a five year old could have gleaned that from the story.

If the scenario was as this guy described, Cloud would have been vaporized in the first fight of the game. Just like some idiot kid who tried to use his l33t counterstrike skills to take on real terrorists. Just like if whackos like this guy demanded to meet with the President because "I own a web log!"

Is there any reason to _hate_ it?

[Axeus]

So...millions of people played the game and enjoyed it. Hence, they think it's 'good'. Is there really anything wrong with that? Is he telling people they shouldn't have enjoyed the game? That they should have been so snobbish to rant about the inconsistent art direction instead of actually playing and enjoying the game?

wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Who pissed in his wheaties?

Examples

[Surael]

I notice that, in many of his points, he doesn't cite examples.

Flame Bait!

[TheZorch]

This whole article is flame bait.

The author obviously doesn't get the whole story of FFVII at all or the appeal of the characters. Its close-minded, self-righteous idiots like this guy that make me wish for manditory sterilization of stupid people.

FFVII was a masterpiece of storytelling and innovative game design. It changed the world of console RPGs forever and showed what could really be done with the PSOne hardware if developers too the time to "try" harder.

Re:Flame Bait!

[Xuranova]

Amen. That and Sephiroth was the coolest villian to grace any medium, period.

Re:What is he criticizing? The game or the player?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some are unique and superior. Not opinions, mind you. I'm sure all slashdotters will remember a certain back orifice that was paraded around all over the Internet. And, of course, it *was* hard to stomach, let alone appreciate.

You know what I'm talking about. Just be glad I'm not linking.

I liked Squall.

[Lendrick]

I thought he as a lot more interesting than Cloud. He at least had emotions, even though he wasn't necessarily capable of showing them. Squall's just an example of someone who closed up because they were afraid of losing someone again. He actually becomes pretty likeable by the end of the game, and he shows more character development than any other video/computer game I can think of at the moment.

I hated the draw system, and I didn't much care for the Ultimecia plot. I can think of a lot of RPGs that are less flawed than FF8, but FF8 is still my favorite video game.

I can understand why a lot of people don't like FF8... if you're going to appreciate it, three things are necessary:

1) You have to be playing for the story and not the game system. I didn't sit there repeatedly drawing spells out of enemies because I enjoyed FF8 combat. I did it because I wanted to see what happened next.
2) You have to "get" Squall. There's an interesting personality there, and he starts to change for the better when you first get to Fisherman's Horizon. Liking story more than combat in general doesn't help you if you can't get past Squall's personality on the first disc.
3) You have to realize that the stupid Ultimecia plot is really just a backdrop for the main story, which is Squall's own personal struggle.

All this probably makes it sound like I had to work at liking FF8. Honestly, I just loved it. Also, the music was awesome.

That's why people think the game is good

[hackwrench]

They all come away with their own interpretation of game events, something I look for when determining whether or not a game is good, but the reviewer apparently doesn'tl.

at the age you discover people are stupid...

[Glowing Fish]

We, as humans, aren't really all that smart

Do you all remember the age at which you could state, in all seriousness, that people aren't smart? And say it as a straight-forward comment, as if this is a great discovery? I think everybody goes through this period. Especially geeks. Especially geeks who may have had a hard time in the teenage years. But then, after you get done picking on the expected targets: mainstream culture and society, you have to prove yourself "geekier than thou" by picking on things in your own sub-culture, until only the very narrowest is good for you. I think we have all seen this and taken part in it.

The thing is, in places, FFVII is indeed stupid. It has the same hardcore hero who gets better and more magical powers, living everyone's dreams of power fulfillment. And of course he is surrounded by the same group of magical beautiful women. Of course it has a villain that you save the world from. The game mechanics are often repetitive. There are certain holes and inconsistences in the story. The world only has ten or so towns, and the planet is shaped like a Torus. There is an Evil Corporation(TM) running things. And many more. So, yes, like all human endeavor it has lots of stupidity. But it also has many, many smart and engaging things about it: the gradual, spooky peeling back of Cloud's character, the mixture of cute nostalgia and gothic elements, the look at the inner machinations of Shinra, the gigantic amounts of literary references, the sometimes understated dialogue, the design of the geographic locations you visit, and of course the music and graphics.

So, yes, while in some ways stupid and repetitive, it seems somewhat snide to dismiss it out of hand. He could say that he doesn't like playing it, or that its legions of fanboys and fangirls sometimes treat the game as the greatest thing ever. But I think Final Fantasy VII got its reputation for a reason. Lots of people who are not stupid at all think it is a great, great game.

And, slightly OT but worth reading:

[Glowing Fish]

And, just on the subject of the various literary references that you can find in Final Fantasy, and why the game does indeed have a lot of substance, read these:

God will forgive you, but I won't...

The lack of realism in Final Fantasy VII

Although perhaps after reading these, a case could be made that I am a fanboy who reads too much into the game...

Re:And, slightly OT but worth reading:

[BitwizeGHC]

# The two people who are in political control in the game are called "President", even though they are a Father and Son. "President" suggests a republic, where leaders are suggested through merit, not because of who your father was.
# In addition, the government doesn't seem to be elected. It seems to be just a front for a bunch of greedy energy company executives.

[Insert standard snarky Slashdotter remarks about the Bush administration here.]

Re:And, slightly OT but worth reading:

[Anonymous Coward]

Regarding your list of "unrealistc" aspects of FFVII:

1. Shinra was a company. The head of a company is often called the President. President Shinra was the head of the company. Rufus was VP until his dad died. Makes sense he was promoted to Pres. Also, the term Preisdent is often applied to dictators.

2. Again, Shinra was a company that dominated the world through economic/military might. And unelected governments aren't exactly uncommon.

3. A company/goverment motivated by greed and self-interest? That's unpossible!

4. Seems like a common political tactic. Patriot Act, hello!

5. We've pretty much abandoned space development since the end of the Cold War. Not too far fetched that Shinra would do the same when their war with Wutai ended.

6. Rich people galivanting while poor disenfranchised people suffer? Another unpossibility.

Seriously... were you trying to be ironic with this list or something?

Linear

[ShakaUVM]

FFVII was a bad game because it was linear, nothing less, nothing more. There's no character design, no real thought involved in materia, and no real challenge. I beat the whole game without dying in a non-optional combat.

FFVII is closer to an "interactive movie" than it is to an actual game. At some point, I was playing the game half-asleep just waiting for the next cutscene, not really noticing the 100 random combats that they make you fight between "Cutscene H" and "Cutscene I".

My girlfriend played FFVII the right way, which is to say she didn't play it at all but just watched the cutscenes and read the story.

I don't know FF7 but ...

[Qbertino]

I don't know FF7 but I know an arrogant asshole when I see one. Or read an article by one for that matter. So this game had some stuff that made it cream of the crop for a large fanbase. Judging from the screenshots it had some really neat looking 3D Anime characters by the standards of those days. Apparently he doesn't comply with the majorities opinion. So what's the big deal?
Using D&D as the bar to define Roleplaying - not matter if Pen & Paper or Videogame - goes to show that this guy is nothing but a halfwit with an over-inflated opinion of himself. And a very obnoxious attitude and writing style. That alone is enough to dismiss the article. No matter how many points he may have along the way or not.
I want my 5 Minutes back.

Flamebait

[brkello]

That is all this is. If he truly feels this way, then he has some serious mental delusions. The only reason I think that anyone could or would write this up is if they wanted to see a bunch of people get pissed off. While he writes well enough, he fails to argue any of his points. He just places a bunch of degrading labels on the characters without deomnstrating why he believes that. Same when he talks about the plot or storyline. He just complains and doesn't state anything specific to make you say "hey, he has a point". I really dislike people like him...who think they can judge a person based on their tastes on a specific topic. A lot of people had fun playing the game. That was the point...to have fun. If he wants to dis on a game that was made many years ago...well, he has a sad little life. Heck, I bet he enjoyed playing it at the time too. Personally, FFVII had one of the most moving moments I have had in a game. When the pretty girl who is a main character gets slaughtered right in front of you....and you can't bring her back...I remember not wanting to stop playing until I somehow found a way to bring her back.

While FFVII isn't my favorite in the series, I still enjoyed it. And if this pompous ass didn't...well, I am sure he can find plenty of company that enjoy looking down on others for enjoying a certain passtime.

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

So moving was it that you don't remember the characters name.

Re:Flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

When the pretty girl who is a main character gets slaughtered right in front of you....and you can't bring her back..

Phantasy Star IV

"firsties"

[PaganRitual]

Part of what makes FFVII's popularity so enduring is the nefarious power of "firsties" syndrome.

Also see : Halo

Re:Contrarian? More like asking for it...

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Honestly, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but the entire tone of this article is "I'm calling you an idiot; what're ya gonna do about it?"

I had a slightly different take. I thought he was trying to gather together an army of people who don't want to be idiots so they support his view and fight the battle.

Dunno if that's the case here, but I've seen it on web forums. "I don't like BSG!" "Me too! I look more sophisticated and intelligent by having a different view!" "STFU!"

Hironbu is gone too

[Nazmun]

He was considered the father of FF and at least produced/directed up to FF7-8. He's now going to be rotting in Mistwalker Studios... guh... no matter how awesome his Eastern RPG might be I doubt it would sell well in Japan for the xbox360.

Cloud was Tifa's Crush

[Nazmun]

It seemed like Cloud wasn't too concerned with Romance or really showed signs of loving anyone too much until Aeris arrived. Especially the younger cloud...Earlier on it seemed like Tifa had a crush on him then the other way around.

Failure in real life?

[MagusSlurpy]

A guy writing an internet review of a video game that came out almost ten years ago is applying this term to others?

Is FF 7 The Great Game Ever?

[bnielson]

Is FF 7 The Great Game Ever? Doesn't matter. It's just a matter of opinion anyhow. However, I think we can concluded beyond doubt that Toasty Frog is wrong in his assessment as to *why* it's fondly remembered by so many (when he thinks it's a bad game.) To read my full rebuttal check out http://www.onlineroleplayer.com/Home/tabid/36/Entr yID/29/Default.aspx

Re:Is FF 7 The Great Game Ever?

[bnielson]

Oops, that should have been *greatest* game ever. Oh well. :P