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Awesome Multimedia Technology Heads for KDE
An anonymous reader writes "Linux Devices is reporting on a cool new multimedia technology that's slated to be incuded in KDE 4.0. The two key components are Phonon, a central hardware configuration database said to free multimedia applications from the need to configure hardware, and NMM (network-integrated multimedia middleware), a distributed multimedia architecture whereby multimedia content can be readily shared among networked devices and even 'handed over' from one device to another. Potential NMM applications include networked multimedia home entertainment systems, distributed and parallel media processing applications, distributed streaming servers and services, communication and control systems, and large-scale multimedia installations such as video walls, according to the article, which includes some interesting photos and diagrams. Phonon and NMM will be demonstrated at LinuxTag, May 3-6, in Wiesbaden, Germany."
Seriously, I'm hanging out for 4.0...
“Our opponent is an alien starship packed with nuclear bombs. We have a protractor.” — Neal Stepnenso
I saw that headline and thought it would be another Intel VIIV thing.....
In undeveloped countries, the consumer controls the market. In capitalist America, the market controls you.
Nobody is forcing you to install kedu or kwordquiz. You are absolutely free to install them, or to not install them.
As for kwin, yes, a window manager sure is bloat...
Jesus, will these stupid trolls never stop.
You want to run KDE without kwin? Brilliant! Next up: Running Linux without that pesky kernel.
"Are you hungry? I haven't eaten since later this afternoon." -- Primer
kwin was one of the packages which I did not recognize. But if it's important, feel free to replace it with "kbattleship" in my post.
Wow, have you ever used KDE? Those are optional packages with the exception of kwin (the windowing manager).
> I just love dependencies!
what? You mean I can't get a Window manager, a desktop environment, a web browser, an IDE, a bunch of games, an Office suite, a PIM package, a media player, network tools, useful utilities, administrative tools, and a bunch of educational packages by installing a single statically linked binary?
Oh noes!!!!!11!!
Looks like you're installing a KDE meta-package that has been designed, by your distro, to pull in all of those unnecessary packages. KDE itself can run with just a few packages - kdebase, kdelibs, and a handful of others. If you want to blame someone for this, blame your distro's packagers :)
KDE has a tendency to fill every users system with crap that nobody uses.
And E or GNOME doesn't?
You, my dear sir, are an idiot. Not everyone shares the same interests, and it is practically impossible to find anyone who uses every single piece of software provided by a desktop environment.
What would nice however if this new technology used unix-style seperation of tasks, so that every window manager could use it, i.e. programs with commandlines like x_video_stream video.mpeg --window 12385 --default-x-server --size 320,240 --deinterlace, and stream_from_network_to_pipe nfsfile pipetouse.
This, more than anything else, would make more people use them because their usage can be CUSTOMIZED. Hiding stuff in an API is a mistake.
how does kbattleship bloat KDE?
KDE consists of kdelibs + kdebase. Everything else is optional.
In fact, if you want to run an individual KDE application without the desktop environment, then even kdebase is optional.
If you try to install all of the packages that the Debian KDE maintainer has decided are part of "KDE", then what a suprise, you get ALL of them.
The big heap of dependencies you listed are 90% individual KDE applications that you are completely free to install or not.
If that is difficult, then that is an issue with the packaging of KDE on your distribution, not an issue with KDE itself.
See if there is a "kde-base" meta package you can install - if you do that, you'll get the much smaller set of applications that comprise the core of KDE, and then you can cherry pick the other applications that suit your needs.
Advanced users are users too!
cant wait to get the little widgets on my desktop, and all the multimedia, and its gonna be so much better to look at than vistas Aeroglass crap, and all the games... oh...
:(
****
guess its still not THAT great afterall... come on someone, put up a hundred grand prize for the first "big name title" (some criteria to exclude stuff already on linux, and crap like madden from being eligable) to provide a native Linux version. or something... pretty KDE is nice and everything but... i miss my games
XML - A clever joke would be here if
I know this new multimedia technology is awesome, but I need to know, is it mad crazy, too? The submitter forgot to say.
I fail to see how a lot of software that is kde compatible is a bad thing. Maybe you don't want to play battleships. Others like it, though, and are happy that the interface to this amazing mindgame is compatible to the interface of their editor, spreadsheet or terminal program. Much software is a benefit. If you don't like it, don't install it.
Is this a new attempt at including Digital Restrictions Management in Linux? I've read posts on here that have discussed the DRM inclusions in GNOME's GStreamer. Could KDE be next? Real, Fluendo, and other copyright trolls are a threat to watch out for, similar to the looming threat of binary kernel modules. We as Linux users must be on guard against the copyright mafia's incessant attempts to neuter our computers.
If you don't like it don't install it, if your using Linux select the packages you want not the 'KDE' meta package with "all the official packages" takes a little longer but works just as well, hell if your really worried put together a metapackage of your own with just the bits you want, and none of those you don't. Yeah you will hit some issues with dependencies but not all that many, and you can get rid of a huge amount of bumf if you don't want it, I'm happily using a lightweight KDE with components of my own choosing, but if I install KDE on someone else's PC they tend to get the whole lot, and are generally happy.
Oh and for people who are not worried about bloat and people new to Linux its all "nice features" trying to make KDE attractive to people is not a bad thing, especially when you want to have all the latest wizz bang stuff.
After all Linux gives you choice, its not like you can get rid of all the boat in Windows or even the gnome metapackage...
Just my view
Wow, a metapackage dependacy PROVES that KDE is bloated! Perhaps you should learn about "dpkg-query".
http://packages.debian.org/stable/kde/kde-core
"This metapackage includes the core official modules released with KDE. This includes just the basic desktop (browser, file manager, text editor, control center, panel, etc.) and important libraries and data, in addition to the aRts soundserver."
If that's still too large for you:
http://packages.debian.org/stable/kde/kdebase
"This package depends on the minimum number of packages to provide a simple yet fully functional KDE desktop."
You are calling /usr/include a mistake?
Wow. Maybe you should pull the KCock out of your KAss?
Speaking of idiots, I love it how you assume that I'm using Gnome as soon as I say that don't prefer using KDE.
No, I do not use Gnome.
Looks to me like you made an embarrassingly ill-informed and troll-ish post, got rightly flamed for it, and are now trying to say "Look everyone - one of my detractors made a foolish post, too [which he didn't] - go rag on him, instead!". I'm hoping others will pick up on this and that it will backfire on you.
Either learn to admit your mistakes when people call you on them instead of trying to shift the negative focus back onto them, or stop posting. Carrying on in this childish manner can only end badly for you.
Then you're either a) not using Linux or b) not even the target for a desktop in the same class as KDE (which gnome isn't, but it pretends it is) and thus shouldn't really be bothered by whether or not KDE is bloated (it's not), right? Troll less, enjoy your life more. Everyone will be happier for it.
The Farewell Tour II
Yep, if I don't use either KDE or Gnome I'm totally against running Linux on workstations. You're so correct. (Note: Irony)
Something like Debian GNU/kFreeBSD is very similar to this!
(The concept is that you can use KDE with other window managers instead of kwin)
-- Patent no.123456: A way to personalize
What he means by bloat is that small individual applications that ought only to depend on kdelibs, don't. They depend on "everything". This is, I maintain, because it's slightly easier than actually learning to code.
I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
kWin is the window manager that runs on top of the KDE desktop - surely you should be able to remove it and use a different WM? I'm not to 'up' on KDE but you can definately use alternatives to metacity & sawfish in GNOME (e.g: I've run WindowMaker in GNOME).
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams
Installing KBattleship in Gentoo, with no previous KDE packages installed, would give you three things: kdelibs, libkdegames and kbattleship. If the dependency system on your Linux distribution tries to pull in more, bug the package maintainers.
War is one of the most horrible things a human can be exposed to. And one of the worlds largest industries.
> What he means by bloat is that small individual applications that ought only to depend on kdelibs, don't. They depend on "everything".
No they don't.
Please give an example.
Advanced users are users too!
foo@bar:~$ sudo apt-get install kbattleship
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
kdelibs libkdegames everything
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
God you're dumb. There's almost no point in talking to you.
Windows is incredibly bloated because of the Photoshop and Quicken you're forced to use.
Mac OS is incredibly bloated because of the Final Cut Pro and Aperture you're forced to use.
Computing is incredibly bloated because of the Windows, Linux, and OS/2 you're forced to install.
Ford cars are incredibly bloated because of the all the groceries you're forced to buy and carry in them.
You're so confused, you probably think you're incredibly bloated because of the sunglasses, sunscreen, and wristwatch you're "forced" to wear.
now excuse me if I call a package that absolutely needs
- A browser
- A control center
- A system panel
- A file manager
- A text editor
a bit bloated.
In my perfect world kde would be split up in separate packages so that I can have the window manager and the taskbar, configure them _without_ the control panel, have mozilla as a browser if I wish, and use no file manager at all (at the cost of not having icons on my desktop, of course).
I will also rejoice the day someone cleans the application dependencies (and, yes, I know this is not strictly a task for the kde team) so that any k* app stops depending on 40 different (k)libraries (no you will never make me believe a fraking xterm clone needs all of them).
Anyway this is why _I_ do not use kde, this does not mean it is crap or that _you_ can't use it.
I use E17 instead, the enlightenment package contains just the bare minimum (a window manager + a few widgets) and I can install the rest (the various epplets, epplications and so on) only if I want to.
hehe...Someone better poke the Debian KDE packagers with something sharpe then ;)
Advanced users are users too!
Those that do not understand {Directshow, UPnP} are doomed to reinvent them.. Poorly.
The bare minimum I can install is Konqueror and some libs for kdebase.
No control center, no file manager, no text editor.
I'm sure I could remove Konqueror with 'rpm -e --nodeps konqueror' and it would work fine. But I am too lazy to try.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
What are you, kidding? That reads like a list of minimum requirements for a basic desktop environment! It's heartening to see somebody acknowledge that their needs are their needs, however.
It all sounds really neat, but IMHO it should be a middleware layer, or something like that. It should lie *under* KDE, not be part of KDE. For that matter, it should optionally like under GNOME, or under my current non-KDE, non-GNOME icewm or xfce desktops.
The linkage to KDE for this software layer seems inappropriate to me.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
KDE 4 may seriously cause me to switch from Gnome.
Dude what on earth are you on about.
The _meta_ package is _supposed_ to include the most commonly used apps. You don't have to install it - it's just there to make it easy for you _if_ you want to install the commonly used kde apps.
I haven't been able to figure out yet what major advantages NMM has (if any) over UPnP.
Whether it does or not, UPnP is a standard that is beginning to be widely supported by new PC software and embedded hardware devices, while NMM is going to be stillborn unless it can achieve the market penetration that UPnP has.
Who cares about network-oriented decentralized multimedia when nothing on the network except your PC supports it?
The KDE developers would be much better off focusing on improving UPnP support so that KDE can "play nice" with other devices/software coming on the market, and THEN start researching replacements for UPnP.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Since multimedia is very low on my list of things to do with my computer, it's not something that will endear KDE to me.
My GUI of choice is actually the Enlightenment Window Manager rather than any of the desktops, even then, I spend more time in a cli only environment than in an X session.
J. Henager: If the average user can put a CD in and boot the system and follow the prompts, he can install and use Linux
'nuff said.
Installing KBattleship in Gentoo, with no previous KDE packages installed, would give you three things: kdelibs, libkdegames and kbattleship.
Well, assuming you had all of the other dependencies installed. It has to depend on some other stuff, like libarts (unless that's part of kdelibs), libc, libgcc, etc.
On Debian:
That all seems pretty reasonable. Some of the X extension libraries aren't really needed for kbattleship, but I'm sure they get pulled in by stuff in libqt3 that does need them, and they're both small and almost certainly installed on any system with an X.org server anyway.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I am Canadian and even I know this isn't ironic. This my friend is called S-A-R-C-A-S-M.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
And I never said you weren't interested in running Linux on workstations. I said you aren't using Linux or a desktop in the class of KDE. KDE and gnome (if you count it, which I wouldn't) are the only desktop systems in KDE's class on Linux. There are many fine window managers on Linux that don't have similar feature sets to KDE. I particularly like Fluxbox and Enlightenment has a lot of "pow" effects, but they're not in the same class as KDE.
If you took that as a measure of quality, that's your mistake. It's a matter of classification, based on feature set, and nothing else. On Linux the only options you've got for full integrated desktop environments are KDE and gnome, but only if you hate yourself.
Feel free to give me another round of troll or flamebait, gnome users. My karma can take it and it gives me a warm feeling inside knowing that there are still people out there suffering through using it.
The Farewell Tour II
It's about networking and device discovery. While you need UPnP to find everything, it doesn't mesh the media playback, etc. seamlessly. NMM is more analogous to DirectPlay and probably HAS a backend for UPnP or can easily enough. If you'd have read up on what NMM was, you'd know this, though...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Shouldn't post this early in the morning without my IV bottle of coffee...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Wtf? The post mentioned technologies that have nothing to do with GUI widgets but you're talking about Aero Glass? The post mentioned stuff that will make our lives easier but you're talking about missing a few games?
Bless you, Jesus.
"Are you hungry? I haven't eaten since later this afternoon." -- Primer
Phonon is an API a KDE app will use to do sound/video. Phonon is really just an abstraction layer. You can have an arts backend, alsa backend, gstreamer backend, even a windows backend.
... that you can use on top of the existing (excellent) abstraction layer that is GStreamer? Does it add anything, or are they just NIH people?
... so they're making/adding Phonon, why, exactly?
So Phonon is an abstraction layer
I can't see it being used by a Gnome app, they already have gstreamer (which can do arts, esd, alsa, oss, windows, etc too).
Right
The webpage says: "If you need multimedia functionality in your program, Phonon is for you. Use it from simple audio playback to full blown video playback with audio and video effects. Use it to record an audio signal or capture from a webcam. Use it to concentrate on your program and not on getting the mediaframework to work for you."
So, as a developer, why would I want to use this instead of GStreamer? GStreamer is here, working, has a lot more functionality than Phonon, and has bindings to all my favorite HLLs. What exactly does Phonon offer?
Oh good, a digg style headline on Slashdot.
yes, kde apps requires many packages... but We all like when amaroK, downloads a wikipedia article about the band we are playing... and we can't do that without konqueror... The keywords is reuse and intergration... which is why kde apps depends on many different packages...
UPnP AV is a wireline protocol (Which has A/V components to it...) for device discovery and "use", not an API.
NMM is basically an API and is at a much higher level. To compare what we're talking about here you should really compare DirectShow, etc. with NMM, not UPnP.
UPnP is analogous to URB's, etc. within the USB spec. You typically do not see people coding for URB's and talking to the HID layer, etc. for USB devices- unless they're making device drivers or higher-level programmer API's for the devices.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas