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Higher Education Fears Wiretapping Law
alphadogg writes "Institutions of higher education are up in arms over an FCC ruling on wiretapping they say could cost them billions of dollars in upgrades, expose their networks to more attacks, and jeopardize rights to privacy and freedom of speech.
"
hate our freedom?
Could the answer be 'They have history departments'?
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Higher education vs. government decisions... I do wonder who's in the right.
Ignore this signature. By order.
When you see terrorists under every bed and in every closet you just know they're rampant in the liberal colleges... [rolls eyes]
Remember, if it stops just one terrorist, it's all worth it!
OK, so it was only three weeks before 9/11. And it was some other country. But you have to give him credit for achieving his policy objective, not only in his own country, but in his opponent's country too.
I find it interesting about the things the universities are concerned with. It might just be the article, but it seems the main concern is the cost of the venture est. 400 - 500 dollars a student. The next concern is hackers and the last one is freedom of speech / stifling of research.
I would think that the universities would be worried more about the free speech implications rather than the cost... I don't think the cost issue will hold up in court that well - but free speech (hopefully would).
The only other thing is that the article mentions that a negative ruleing, could force even labtops on campus to be CALEA compliant. Since I'm a student at a university that requires students going into certain majors to have a labtop (to use and plug into the campus network) - I'm wondering if that means that we as students would have to modify our personal labtops (cause they interact with the campus network).
Sadly I bet the universities will compromise on this issue - rather than go to court.
There is always a frontier where there is an open and willing mind
Once general wiretapping goes into effect on "public" internet connections in conjunction with the patriot acts 'no warrant necessary'. This will become a major revenue source for the police as they place the equivalent of automatic red light traffic tickets on any unlawful internet traffic.
Kiss your free (as in speech) internet goodbye.
-- The morphemes of your disquisition are ascertainable, but they have eschewed an ambit of transpicuous exposition.
Okay, I'll bite. You spelled it that way three times. What's a labtop?
You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
"Math in a song is good."-Linford
My understanding is the most recent rulemaking by the FCC states that colleges and universities would only need to provide the "wiretap" capability for traffic going to and from the campus and the Internet. As such, a wholesale replacement of all routers and switches on campus would not be necessary; most likely some edge equipment and possibly some VLAN switching.
Of course, the cost complaint ignores the ongoing privacy versus security debate.
In any event, there is an excellent resource for higher education's position on this issue at EDUCAUSE. See http://www.educause.edu/calea
No need to mention how much it costs; to do so says that you'd be okay with such intrusions if they were suddenly free.
If you RTFA, the FCC ruling was expanded to ISP's. Universities are concerned that they may legally fit in the legal definition of an ISP. If so, then they would have to obey the same laws as, say AOL and MSN. If that happens and the FBI is investigating, say, someone on campus who with a child porn website, the University would be required to give the FBI access to the network to monitor traffic if a subpoena is granted for a tap. So, all in all, the Universities want to provide broadband internet service for all students, but not be classified as providers of internet service.
The previous comment is purposely vague and generalized, but all of the facts are completely true.
upset about this, the cost, the total annihilation of the Bill of Rights, it sucks...
If I had 'nuff mod points
If I could find a way
I'd mod up those words that you've posted
And you'd stay
If I had 'nuff mod points
I'd give them all to you
And you'd love me, love me, like you used to do
Ignore this signature. By order.
If you don't like the laws of this country, nobody is stopping you from picking up and moving your college/business/home someplace else.
Ahhh... that's the great thing about the good ol' USA. We don't have to just leave if we don't like the laws. We can write our representatives, vote, support candidates we like, camp out in front of the president's house, yell, complain, march and protest. Hell, you don't even have to be a citizen of this country or here legally to protest - as we've seen today.
Maybe the people with the different opinions aren't the ones that should leave, maybe it's the people who want to opress free discussions of ideas, like YOU.
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So, anytime someone in government abuses the trust and welfare of the country, it's okay to use the position of your home on the map as a means to rationalize that abuse?
If the government suddenly decided to legalize raping children, you wouldn't see anything wrong with that either, I suppose, because after all this is the Almighty Perfect Government of America.
Shouldn't freedom of speech be the first of those pririties listed?
We're not a big college - we have ~ 5,000 students. We can barely afford to keep our network upgraded and pay our bandwidth bills as it is. Because we are state funded our "income" is very dependent on the state budget which varies significantly (and has been mostly crap for the past 6 years). To do any capital expenditures (which upgrading our network would be) we have to negotiate for a cut of a finite pot of money shared by all state funded colleges and universities in our state, including the flagship university which is large and politically powerful and invariably gets a disproportionate share of the capital budget. We are also saddled with the state's personnel system - we have some departments in the college which have a lot of old employees who can not be fired because they have been here forever. This includes our IT department which has an uneven allocation of funding since it is "new" on college-scale time and not really politically powerful - we have a handful of these old employees who, because they have been here so long, make more money than anyone else in IT but don't actually do much of anything except hang out and go to "meetings" - thus we can't afford to hire many new people (since they eat up a chunk of our already small budget) and even when we can afford to hire them the state requires a long drawn out hiring process and mandates structured pay rates that we can not legally deviate from. If we wanted to hire some network god he would be stuck taking substandard pay and we couldn't even offer him a signing bonus to entice him. Assuming he still wanted the job after the 6+ month hiring process was completed. Additionally, the state system is inherently biased against younger people - if you haven't been in the industry at least 5 years already or if you just "look young" then chances are significantly decreased that you will even be hired in the first place.
So yeah - we fear some bullshit federal regulations that are going to require us to let the Feds poke their noses into our network - it's old and underfunded serviced by too few staff and there is no hope of that changing. Not to mention we have to deal with faculty and students who already distrust us and the Feds AND who get pissed off at us constantly because of the various IT-related failures on campus (due to the obvious underfunding and staffing issues).
Internet/Echelon Compatibility Protocol
Is your network Echelon-ready?
If the government manages to put onerous restrictions and requirements on those who supply our network connections, many organizations will leave the business and the price of a network connection will go up.
In the case of universities, they might cease to provide email accounts for students for instance. Forget being able to get a free wireless connection in the common room.
The flow of information will be a little more restricted and we'll get a little closer to becoming a third world economy.
You got it all wrong. We're back to protecting the kids. Get your talking points right, junior. It'll be back to the terrorists in a year when that's back in style--or when Bush needs to stop making history as the first President to get negative approval rating numbers.
They will just pass it along to the students.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Hey, if you don't like people who want to oppress free speech and the open exchange of ideas, you DEFINITELY should move to another country!
The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
Or are they worried about the cost of limiting that access to just the government?
With our overlords in the RIAA just starting to turn towards campus networks in their War on Piracy, my tin foil hat is beeping like crazy over this matter.
We've become the government we kicked out two centuries ago, except they didn't pretend to be otherwise.
"Made up/misattributed quote that makes me look smart. I am on
I'm gonna make my own internet, with blackjack and hookers! In fact, forget the internet and the blackjack.
Prediction: The real iPhone killer is going to be sex robots from Japan. Think about it.
Law Enforcement and higher education seem to have been clashing odds for a while. I used to be a PBX guy at a college, and I know that there was at least two occasions while I was there that we had a member of the local PD come in and ask for subscriber information. Unless they had a subponea, we pretty much showed them the door. The only real reason that anyone really looked at the information was for billing purposes, or if we were doing testing on the line (DCONX, anyone?).
PBX means just that: Private Branch Exchange. PBX != "Telephone Company"
I disable sigs...do you?
It is what you get when your beer gut extends so far you laptop now rest on it instead of your lap. It is an american thing.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Like Spain, for example, where public higher education institutions are the voice of their master.
How can you consider wiretapping 'freedom'?
Or were you just trying to be cute?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
See... this is why masterbatory threads about Bush bashing are counter-productive. When an important issue comes up that slashdot should get behind, we've burnt our bridges already and are seen as chick-littles or simple Bush haters who oppose everything. Don't expect slashdots "righteous outrage" to resonate very far on this one...
Wow. I knew the Canadian VAT was kind of expensive, but I didn't know anything about the killing daughters part! With those sort of atrocities, as well as the fact that Canada has oil, why haven't we inva^H^H^H^Hliberated yet?
Does anybody remember if government required AT&T to make changes in the telephone system to ease wiretapping?
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
How exactly does wiretapping threaten freedom of speech? If you have freedom of speech, it doesn't matter if someone else (the gov't) hears what you're saying because they can't do anything about it. That's the point of freedom of speech, after all...
I wish people would stop confusing (or associating) freedom of speech and privacy.
Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
That's good advice to give to someone who is afraid to stand up for one's self.
On the other hand, if you advising people who believe in freedom of speech, the pursuit of happiness, and individual rights, well then your just not going to get many takers.
As far as upgrading crappy hardware though, I'm with you on that.
Is she? I never knew.
Get your own free personal location tracker
As long as you don't try and mess with my precious bodily fluids...
"But this one goes to 11!"
Higher education could have a good say in this should they make a push to all agree that this is not a good thing.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
Remember that even if your encryption is infallible, if you are protecting anything of value, monetary or otherwise, there is incentive the break the encryption.
It is often easier/faster to break a user than to break the encryption. How long can you stand being beaten with a rubber hose until you hand over the password? How long can you watch your significant other being beaten? How long could you stand your domain being hosted on an IIS server?
For me, well they can beat my wife a long time before I will break. But they better leave my poor little kitty cats alone!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Things were already better - things are being changed for the worse. I don't mean that in a pro-liberal way either. Look, in the 1970s how many people complained about Christmas displays? If they did, it wasn't news. In an effort to push political correctness on every citizen there will be a backlash - it's happening now. People are getting sick of being told how they should refer to someone else.
They're not gay, they leave an "alternative" lifestyle.
He's not an illegal alien, he's an "undocumented immigrant worker".
He's not a pedophile, he's "mentally ill".
It goes on and on and on. Universities have become a haven for teaching this line of thinking as to not offend anyone.
You read last year about how teachers are switching to purple ink as opposed to red ink for grading papers right? They don't want to traumatize the student with that horribly scary red ink! When will it end?!
Since network communications can be encrypted and tunneled, simple interception is (generally) pointless. Honestly, I don't know the session keys chosen; I can't help decrypt a lot of the data. Especially an IM session.
So, to implement wiretapping usefully, modifications typically have to be made to each of the endpoint machines (key loggers, etc.). Either additional software, or hardware. Once the endpoint machine modification is in place, what is to prevent it from being used by another agency (not authorized)? Software would be very prone to this, so a hardware solution would be preferred.
Yes, I can see $400 per endpoint machine.
And, being a key logger, it would be very intrusive. Either wiretap data would be sent to custom routers (note that a standard router could be set to block the traffic), adding another expense (but only tapping if specifically authorized) OR the key logger can always log keystrokes to non-volatile memory, to be read out later by an authorized wiretap. In the second case, the user would have to warned about the intrusion ("You are being logged.").
What a fuck-up.
Ratboy.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
You have to put those two together at some point.
Rod Taylor
>If you don't like the laws of this country, nobody is stopping you from picking up and moving
One of those laws is the Constitution. It's the root law of the US.
Some people seem not to like the Constitution. For example, they want to do mass searches without probable cause. One such person is rumored to have called it "just a God-damned piece of paper".
Are you, perhaps, suggesting that people who pass laws like USAPATRIOT, who imprison with charge or trial, who seize property without court authority and who torture their alleged enemies ought to leave the country? Wouldn't you prefer they stay so we can give them the fair trials they have denied to others?
You are aware, I hope, that during a significant number of those conflicts we lost a lot more of our freedoms than we are currently discussing even the potential of losing right now...
I'm not defending the current administration's policies, but I just think that you should be careful drawing historical comparisons before you know where they're going. President Lincoln -- who history has treated quite favorably -- declared and imposed martial law, suspended habeas corpus, and arrested people that today would probably be termed "political dissidents," including a few members of Congress. (The anti-war Democrats known as the "Copperheads" were the common target.)
When the arrests and courts-martial were declared blatantly unconstitutional by the Supreme Court (under Taney), Lincoln simply ignored the ruling until the conclusion of the war. You can Google this, just type in "John Merryman" or check out Ex parte Merryman (the ruling that was ignored).
That's one of the more well-known and egregious violations, but there are others; the persecution of the Germans in World War I, the Japanese in World War II, and a host of other things, any of which can and were argued to be necessary at the time owing to extenuating circumstances.
So by drawing a historical parallel between 9/11 and any other "war period" in our history, you can quite easily play into the hands of a pro-oppression argument, because there is ample historical evidence for periods of relative oppression (or at least, of substantially reduced civil liberties) during conflicts, followed by a return to normalcy afterwards.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Please keep an open mind as you read this.
I've spent the last 15 years caring about what happens in government. At 31, I've finally decided that life is too short for any of it. Every year there are thousands more laws on the books, government seizes more revenue and power over the people, your "freedom" as a citizen is destroyed even further, and I've finally realized that there's no way to stop it. There's just no way -- no government in history has ever significantly and permanently reduced its powers through the democratic process.
All I can do now is (1) concentrate on making myself and my family as happy as possible, (2) disobey as many unethical laws as possible while keeping a low profile, (3) continue my attempts to educate people about the most dangerous, destructive organization to ever exist (government), and (4) ready myself and my family to move to another, less oppressive country as soon as possible.
Don't get me wrong -- I still care about the victims of runaway government. I just don't believe it's possible to stop this runaway train anymore, and I'm not going to waste my life away trying. I've finally realized that there are much more important things in life: the things that matter to myself and my family, the things which I have a god-given right to put above everything else, especially government.
Now, on the other hand, Congress could withhold funding unless we do it, but that's a different story.
Is there a website that rates countries by civil rights? It would be interesting to know what country was number 1, and where the US, UK, France, Germany, etc came.
Get your own free personal location tracker
[Taco]
Guess what class? Field trip to Cuba!
Spoken like a true liberal. Glad I don't know you.
Didn't say I didn't like them. Just said maybe they should move someplace where they will be more happy.
Besides, where would I go?
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That's why there are a lot fewer Russian and Chinese people coming here for "freedom." A lot more are staying home, and many are returning. Relatively speaking, we don't offer that much of an advantage.
Very sad, don't you think?
politics hat off)
:-)
(infosec hat on)
There was a recent scandal in Greece about massive eavesdropping. Many government phone calls were getting involuntarily "conferenced" to multiple prepaid cellular phones. Nobody's caught the perpetrators.
This was done with the "lawful intercept" feature of the telco switching equipment. Depending on the nature of the phone calls it might have been a national security issue.
"Lawful intercept" is a huge security bypass. Bad guys will be highly motivated to exploit it. They won't have to breach physical security either, because CALEA (if memory serves) requires the ISP to offer law enforcemnt remote access.
The threat model also has to include unauthorized users at the law enforcement agency ("Hey, what's this sticky note on the monitor at the CALEA terminal?"). Next worry about the law enforcemnt officer with a personal agenda, e.g. a stalker. Then consider the amount of money in computer crime these days, and ask whether the CALEA operators will be the first incorrutible cops in history. Then reread _The Art of Deception_ and imagine what the next Kevin Mitnick could get the police to do.
That's off the top of my head. For a client I'd get really paranoid
"While you may find tucking your tail between your legs and running away from your problems a suitable way of life, many of us prefer to make an effort to change things for the better."
Ready! Set! Start your P2P clients!
I'm curious what ramifications this will have on HIPAA? http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/finalreg.html
Currently, telecommunications falls under one of the electronic mediums where the healthcare information obtained via said service must be protected. If the goverment goes and records all the telecommunications going between say a hospital and a pharmacy, would that be a violation of HIPAA?
Is there heaven? Is there Hell? Is that a Tuna Melt I smell?-Primus
Sooner or later, it will happen to them too because the TIA principle will be established. The novelty here is that this shit was not pushed through public universities first. Freedoms are usually taken from children first to condition them before they know better.
It's too bad the university administrations are not putting their weight behind CELA being a bad idea for anyone instead of worrying about their own costs. After all, the current expansion of CELA to AOL and M$N is a perfect example of how these kinds of laws grow.
The Federal government is getting way out of step with what people want. TIA and Carnivore were explicitly voted down by Congress, but continued as dark projects. Domestic spying was outlawed in the late 70's. The man who signed those laws thinks they have been broken. No one, outside of law enforcement, wants more domestic spying. I imagine there are plenty of people in law enforcement who also don't want their email and browsing watched and who think this is a perfect waste of time and money.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
My understanding is that it is generally accepted among those who should know that the operation was run out of a certain embassy belonging to a currently unpopular government which is also very close to certain powerful elements in "Grecian" society. Not necessarily the "bad guys" since they were the ones who put the "lawful intercept" in the equipment in the first place but I suppose that is a matter of perspective these days and it does piss people off when they find out their "friend" has gone through their dresser drawers.
I think you're absolutely right, and as my views of governments are as they are, the way I live my life is not exactly reflected by them, as I know they will fail not by being fought (especially as most people "fighting the system" don't have a clue about what they should be fighting and how) as such, but will topple by itself when it's foundations are no longer able to support it.
From atoms to complete cells to civilizations, they split (or die) once they reach a size that's impossible to keep order in. Whether the America will split, or turn against the government and corps that drive it, time will tell, but it's not gonna be sped up by anyone who has time to read and post on slashdot.
The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
I doubt the oppressors of free speech etc are gonna move elsewhere tho, not when they have seats in the government, or have at least their opinions backed by the government.
As for where to move to escape these people? Well on the surface many other countries look as bad (and may even have similar laws in place giving government the same ear-dropping-etc powers), but without the same level of paranoia America has, you'll find the desire for use of such powers usually less.
The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
Fucking fascist.
...the mod didn't detect my "OT" statement was in fact just a break from the usual correction of spelling mistake; demonstration of what the spelt word actually means.
/.
Welcome to
The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
Honestly Professor, I did my homework...
but Homeland Security confiscated it.
The law itself is stupid and should be abolished as a whole. However, as long as it's in effect, everybody might as well suffer equally, and if colleges and universities suffer under it, then there is a better chance that it will get repealed sooner rather than later.
dude, sounds like they already got to it, get a new hat, quickly!!!
President Lincoln -- who history has treated quite favorably -- declared and imposed martial law, suspended habeas corpus, and arrested people that today would probably be termed "political dissidents," including a few members of Congress.
Of course, there was gruesome live combat occuring on American soil between Americans. It's a little different when the main thing propelling the whole argument is just a spun up fear of "terrorism".
So by drawing a historical parallel between 9/11 and any other "war period" in our history, you can quite easily play into the hands of a pro-oppression argument, because there is ample historical evidence for periods of relative oppression (or at least, of substantially reduced civil liberties) during conflicts, followed by a return to normalcy afterwards.
Exactly. That's why I say THERE IS NO WAR.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
Alternatively, they know that the quickest way to shoot down an idea is to say it's going to cost a lot of money.
The Gov't can mandate whatever the Fark they want, but without funding, it might as well have never been proposed.
Kinda like how some people are making noise about defunding the NSA. Without any money, the legality of the NSA's practices instantly becomes moot.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
A label. Your argument ends with a label. How third grade is that?
Publius.
"Made up/misattributed quote that makes me look smart. I am on
I'm not seeing any tags anywhere. I seem to recall mention of them around the time they also introducing bookmarks. http://slashdot.org/faq/tags.shtml#tags100 says currently tagging is only open to subscribers and some users, but then says your tags are public. Everyone will be able to see them! Apparently I'm no one then.
Some people seem not to like the Constitution. For example, they want to do mass searches without probable cause. One such person is rumored to have called it "just a God-damned piece of paper".
Such is the way of the facist. The foundation and ideals of his country run contrary to his own narrow and simplistic view of the world. He believes in absolutes, homogeneity, hierarchies, divine right, power and the right to use it.
The facist's deepest desire is to dominate those he feels are beneath him, without oversight or accountability. As he sees fit. The Constitution expressly forbids this to him, and thus is beneath contempt. It becomes, a document of the weak, a powerless writ of those beneath him, a meaningless formality, just a God-damned piece of paper.
That piece of paper is the only thing standing between you and the raw, unrestrained brutality of a brownshirted mob. I suggest you defend what's left of it before the pack brays with delight as they gleefully devour the carcass of your free society.
May the Maths Be with you!
"[Department of Justice] notes that it is willing to work with representatives of certain classes of service providers, such as schools, libraries and research networks, on solutions that would apply to narrowly tailored and well-defined categories of providers and would clearly identify sufficient alternative means of addressing the needs of law enforcement,"
.....
1. Introduce sweeping, over-generalized assault on freedom from potential massive abuse of law enforcement power (but won't someone think of the children?)
2. Agree to "compromise" in the face of horrified opposition; compromise would, on its own, already have been discounted as "egregious".
3.
4. Profit!
But hey, I guess our universities are already rife with criminals and terrorists.
Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
The real problem is that people like YOU don't realize that control of your money *IS* a freedom.
Want to travel out of state? Going to need money. Want to call your friends? Going to need money. Want to live indoors? Going to need money. Want to have a good lawyer? Going to need money.
For a lot of people, not having $500 makes a much more immediate and real impact on their practical freedom than the government snooping their IP traffic.
Freedom to not be forced to spend your money on stupid shit is no less important than other freedoms.
paintball
Not broken. Well actually split in half with a very thin insulator, so a potential can build up across the two halves when hit by mind control waves. The potential difference is detected and the alarm sounds. This warns the wearer to don the full body foil suit and head for their TEMPEST accredited shelter.
Please go into detail. If you can name names, that would be great.
rejected my submission on this rather aged but very important topic over TWO months ago.
"Govt. mandated spying will cost $700 per student
Sunday February 26, @02:34AM Rejected"
Why yes I am complaining about the arbitrary nature of which articles get accepted if you don't like it too bad...
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
I double checked a number of articles, and not there. I had 'Simple Design' turned on, and turned it off, no dice. However I did see a 'realated story' on Netflix vs. Blockbuster Revisited, with a plus next to it that shows the content of that story. If they're going to do that, would they please reenable previous story, next story, links under the stories?
One of the very best laws was created under the supervision of President Teddy Roosevelt - forbidding corporations to donate to any political campaign and to any politician. Once the law was overturned, the foundation for fascism was laid.
Are they tax exempt and do they receive federal monies from taxation?
Yes, they do.
So...they want to run their business (selling degrees) without being taxed like other businesses and, somehow, being more equal than anyone else with regard to the law.
They can't have it both ways. That's all there is to it.
They won't stand a chance in this "debate" which is a repeat from a few months ago. Did the laws change or did the schools give up their tax exempt status? No? Well, nothing's new then, is it?
They are behaving like spoiled brats who are being held to accountability. I have to work, pay taxes and submit to the laws in order to eat. Why should they be any different? Why should I have to work to support them? Are their thoughts somehow more "pure" than mine because they are "academic"?
Pfff!!
Clockwurk did a much better job of comparing the two than I could ever hope to do:
(Mod me underrated if you want to mod this post up; I don't want to karma whore off of someone else's work.)
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
* or whatever the upmod is that doesn't affect karma.. Funny, perhaps.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Let's analyze your argument. Lincoln, Wilson, and FDR all placed restrictions on the freedom of American citizens during their respective tenures of office. Lincoln, Wilson, and FDR all are revered leaders in American history. These three presidents are revered for their actions as president. A president who restricts freedom in times of conflict is acting like Lincoln, Wilson, and/or FDR. Therefore, a president who restricts freedom is times of conflict is worthy of reverence.
Do you really think that we revere leaders like Lincoln, Wilson, and Roosevelt because they took away our freedoms in spite of war? Or in spite of it?
Or, do you suppose that these presidents are largely revered because historians gain the benefits of their tenures (a free and preserved Union) without having to suffer the restrictions which those presidents induced? FDR and Lincoln were both effectively martyred because they died not only while in office, but before the war was completely finished. Wilson was notably reviled by his generation, which explains in part why the US stayed out of the League of Nations and Wilson couldn't get a third term. No one alive today cares particularly much whether the people in 1863 could freely express themselves; the number of people to whom the internment of Japanese during World War is an issue is rapidly diminishing.
"History is written by the victors, but lived by the losers."
From atoms to complete cells to civilizations, they split (or die) once they reach a size that's impossible to keep order in. Whether the America will split, or turn against the government and corps that drive it, time will tell, but it's not gonna be sped up by anyone who has time to read and post on slashdot.
Its not just America that has gotten too big, its the world. The world is edging closer to a disaster every day, and there will come a point where we can't turn back. Perhaps we have already reached that point.
Our government no longer cares about governing. It simply exists to protect the profits of the corporate world as they nickel and dime Americans to death. The economy, which used to be America's strength, has slowly had its foundation pulled from underneath it. Now the Chinese keep the dollar propped up for many reasons, especially since it provides them with a favorable trading relationship.
So if America collapses in on itself and seperates into many nations or goes into prolonged civil war, much of the world will end up coming down with us. China, in particular, will being to suffer economic problems as their principle trading partner will no longer be able to buy from them. It will be hard for them to keep their currency devalued. The collapse of the dollar, which is still one of the principle currencies of the planet, will send shockwaves through the world economy and possibly trigger a global depression.
If it does come, it will come from the most surprising of places. It probably won't start in the education system as they try to keep people from learning how to think. It probably won't come from the general population as they are too busy paying off their debt. Perhaps the Illegals are the only hope for this country....
My Sysadmin Blog
Now, think about it for a minute, the Constitution is just paper. It's a collection of laws, any of which can be changed if the people of the U.S. ask their government to do so. In a democracy the will of the people is paramount, not the laws.
If the Constitution is some perfect, eternal and incorruptible ruleset like a physical law, then why does it have so many amendments?
It's interesting to note that the English constitution, being unwritten, is much harder to attack in this way. On the downside, it's harder to defend it as well. In fact, it's tricky even to determine how much of it is actually still intact.
So, it seems you believe the garbage that is being fed to the public?
When they tell you having cameras in your home will make you safer will you buy that too? I hope you have a limit somewhere, I do.
Or did i just feed a troll? With some subjects you can never tell..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Look, in the 1970s how many people complained about Christmas displays?
Are you referring to the "War on Christmas"? That little gem is the product of a few pundits with too much time on their hands and not enough real news to talk about. I wouldn't think much of it; most people don't give a damn what kind of holiday decorations Target chooses to have.
They're not gay, they leave an "alternative" lifestyle.
Who says that homosexuals aren't gay? And of course they lead an alternative lifestyle - that's what homosexuality is all about!
He's not an illegal alien, he's an "undocumented immigrant worker".
Truly the War on Synonyms has just begun.
He's not a pedophile, he's "mentally ill".
Again, I don't know anyone who objects to the term "pedophile" when describing pedophiles.
Universities have become a haven for teaching this line of thinking as to not offend anyone.
Not likely. Researchers have to compete in a very real market when trying to publish papers. There is a standard of quality that not everyone agrees with, but it is nonetheless a standard.
I suspect that what you're complaining about is more apparent in the corporate world, where the clients are always right (even when they are wrong), and in the realm of religion. After all, offending God is considered the ultimate no-no in most mainstream religions. People are taught to pussyfoot around God's wrath by tithing and taking political views similar to those of their preacher. Is that not political correctness taken to the absurd extreme?
If the Constitution is some perfect, eternal and incorruptible ruleset like a physical law, then why does it have so many amendments?
If it's just a piece of paper that can be ignored at will, then why have people gone through the considerable trouble of amending it so many times? Why can't you change the laws in the constitution without changing the document itself?
To make this argument even more explicit, suppose that I enumerate a few existing laws on a piece of paper. What makes the constitution more than my paper is that the piece of paper reflects the laws, but the laws reflect the constitution.
its so important that ISPs and colleges resist this as much as possible. i dont care the excuse (but hardware/software upgrade costs are signifigant, especially considering how colleges are getting less and less money with bush in office) This invades our freedom. Its just one more slip on the slope towards a camera in every room in your house, or microchips in your head that monitor your sences or thoughts. and this WILL be abused by the government just like everything else is.
while that was an egregious violation of human rights, i'd like to point out what might have happened had fdr_not_done that...no, not sabotage...
it's far more likely that many jap-ams et al would have been lynched by mobs, as happened during ww1 to germans: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/1/
the internment camps were most definitely not death camps on the nazi model: to call them concentration camps is a ignorant if not outright bigoted slur...
i'm not aware of any deaths due to fdr's relocation camps (to spin it the other way;-) more like protective custody, a lesser of 2 evils (which doesn't reflect highly on the nativist majority)-:
...because there is ample historical evidence for periods of relative oppression (or at least, of substantially reduced civil liberties) during conflicts, followed by a return to normalcy afterwards.
Not exactly. While I agree that there is a farily large base of evidence for periods of reduced civil liberties at the time of conflict being followed by a relative return to normalcy, it must be taken into account that nto everything returns to the same state afterwards. Items are often put onto the books during wartime that are not stricken when the war ends, especially if they grant the government income and/or power. Take income tax, for example. Here in Canada, it was introduced in 1917 as a war measure... And somehow it just never went away.
I think that one of the things that moderate "oppression conspiracy" theorists fear is that when the United States are no longer in a major conflict, most civil liberties will be returned, but not all. The thing is, people will be so happy with the relative freedom that enduring a few restrictions/laws/taxes that came into effect during the conflict will seem like a small price to pay for getting most of their civil liberties back. Then, enter the next conflict, and the cycle continues...
For the historical record: the "someone else" who wrote that is Sean Wilentz, a professor of history at Princeton, not Clockwurk.
Originally there weren't going to be any amendments, but even with the speration of powers provisions the states still feared a powerful central government and required the amedments before ratifying. The Constitution is not repeat not a collection of laws. The constitution is a description of the powers of the government and how those powers are divided between the branches of the government. The only wording that might be considered a law is the absolute prohibition on bills of attainder and ex post facto laws. Nor is the Bill of Rights (amend 1-10) a set of laws. It is a further restriction on the central government ("congress shall make no law ..." or "... the right to ... shall not be infringed"). It has been argued that the Bill of Rights does not 'grant' any rights that what it does is to aknowledge the existance of the intrinsic rights of individuals. Does the constitution reflect the 'will of the people'? Depends on how you define that. Normally a political group will define what ever they believe in as the 'will of the people'. Given that an amendment requires 3/4's of the states to ratify, it may only reflect the will of 3/4's of the country. However, as seen in the last two presidential elections, getting 3/4's of the country to agree on anything might be impossible. That might explain why there have only been 17 amendments since ratification. If you read those, several have been additional restrictions on the government (state and federal).
There is no reset button in life; however, there are bonus levels.
They might be one in the same..
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Rock on!! 80s Cher music references are teh rox0r.
http://undecidedgames.blogspot.com