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Microsoft Makes Surprise CE 6 Release

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the major-overhaul dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Unexpectedly, Microsoft has released a beta of Windows CE 6, at its mobile developer's conference (MEDC) this week. CE is the real-time OS that underpins Windows Mobile and Microsoft's other device software stacks for phones, PDAs, set-top boxes, and the like. CE 6 looks to be a major rewrite, featuring the capability to support several orders of magnitude more concurrent processes and virtual memory. Also new is support for MS's .NET IDE. Together, these new capabilities seem calculated to morph CE from a closed-box, off-the-shelf OS into a more customizable OS."

145 comments

  1. MS betas by celardore · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Hooray! More software to patch!

  2. Huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    LOL HY LOL

    Choose from some of the most popular search engines on the Web - they're pre-loaded in the Firefox Search bar.

  3. Oh, so this is news. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic
    It's an announcement that CE 6 will come out some day, which is pretty much what we knew already. Jeez.

    Meanwhile they've completely buried the news about Apple's new MacBook laptops:

    May 9th, 2006

    By Jen Tui

    LOS ANGELES, CA (Presswire) - Apple Computer finally launched its long awaited Macbook series of consumer laptops today, after months of speculation from the computing community. The new systems replace the older iBook laptops, and are based upon Intel's recent Core series of computer chips, instead of IBM and Freescale's older PowerPC line.

    "We're delighted to get these machines out the door to an eagerly awaiting public", Apple CEO Steve Jobs explained to a packed press conference. "We're expecting great sales with this model. It's great machine, extremely competitive with our rivals, and I think our customers are going to love it."

    Choosing the E3 Expo to announce the new machines, Apple revealed models varying from a $799 model with an Intel Core Solo, 512Mb of RAM and 80 gigs of hard disk space, to a $1,499 "Macbook gamer" model, with a high-end ATI X1600 graphics card, 120gigs of hard disk space, 2Gb of RAM, and a DVD burning feature. All Macbooks come with a 13" screen, iSight digital camera, optical audio out, and infra-red remote control.

    Surprising many, Jobs announced that instead of bundling the machines with Mac OS X, a specially customized version of Linux would be supplied instead, with both Windows XP and Mac OS X available for an additional fee. The version of Linux, called Gentoo, is bundled with software from Codeweavers Inc that allows the operating system to run many games designed for Microsoft's Windows XP operating system.

    "It's a major step for us", said Jobs, "But we're confident users are going to love this. This isn't a laptop aimed at the high-end professional market, this is for the rest of us, and the rest of us need speed, performance, and cross platform compatibility. Our tests showed that Gentoo was about 5-10% faster than pretty much everything we compared it to."

    Jobs also was keen to stress the Codeweaver's technology in each laptop. "We're looking at a laptop that runs everything. It does it faster, it does it more economically. And the Macbook gamer is the jewel in the crown, if you love games, you're going to love it."

    The Gentoo operating system is bundled with a collection of lifestyle applications that complement Apple's own "iLife" suite. In addition to iTunes, running via the Codeweavers technology, the system includes Gimp, a graphics package, and VLC, a program for viewing DVDs. Apple has made some minor modifications, having the machines boot with a gray "Apple" logo instead of the usual scrolling Linux messages. For those who need compatibility with older Mac OS X applications, Mac OS X is available for an upgrade fee of $499.

    Response to the new Macbooks has been mixed but generally positive at this games-orientated show. "I think most of us have been asking Apple to do this for a long time" one journalist told me, "The real problem with the Mac is the complete lack of games. At a swoop, with Intel, Linux, and Codeweavers, Apple has fixed this."

    The new Macbooks are available immediately.

    Why isn't that on Page 1? Oh wait, it's because it's APPLE, not Microsoft. Geez. Plus with Slashdot's well known anti-Gentoo bias, it doesn't stand a chance. They'll probably pretend the MacBook doesn't exist.
  4. This shows publicity priorities... by ZSpade · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Meanwhile Microsoft's Major new consumer operating system has been pushed back several times, and talked up every chance they get. I think this says a lot about the order of importance of the mobile OS to people. Having worked in retail I can honestly say nobody ever asked me if that palm I was selling them came with a windows based OS or which OS it came with, yet with people who bought desktops I'd always get this question: "Does it come with XP?". This was, of course, years after XP was common, and computers really weren't packaged with anything else.

    I don't think this release was so much a secret as it was an unadvertised release. If microsoft thought there would be a huge public reaction to this, they would have talked it up publicly before they even started work on it.

    --
    Go ahead and call me unreliable; reliable is just a synonym for predictable.
    1. Re:This shows publicity priorities... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The difference is that MS already "own" the desktop. They feel that they don't really need to make much of an effort. To an extent their server OS can piggyback off the desktop machines. They have competition, but can get by with fud a lot of the time, at least in windows shops.

      The embedded space is different still face serious challenges in the embedded space, so they actually have to do some work. They actually have to do some work with CE because they don't have a monopoly.

    2. Re:This shows publicity priorities... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think thats because CE isn't all that bad. I'm a palmOSer myself, but the CE platform is respectable enough. However, people want to know if their computer is laden with a microsoft tax for an undesirable OS, and thus ask about XP in hopes they can find a system that doesn't have it.

    3. Re:This shows publicity priorities... by EraserMouseMan · · Score: 0, Troll

      Having worked in retail I can honestly say nobody ever asked me if that palm I was selling them came with a windows based OS . . .

      Very interesting. It must mean that people don't care. Which means that nobody has a beef with the Microsoft mobile OS. And even though MS makes the mobile OS preferred by the large majority, MS continues to innovate with their mobile OS.

      Watch the haters with their head in the sand say something like, "Oh, well we'll see if this is really innovation or if it's just another bug-filled DRM'd release that the government uses to spy on you."

    4. Re:This shows publicity priorities... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I'd say it has more to do with one team at microsoft with good focus, the other had major parts torn out and re-written for buzzword compliance.

    5. Re:This shows publicity priorities... by NickFortune · · Score: 2, Funny
      Watch the haters with their head in the sand say something like, "Oh, well we'll see if this is really innovation or if it's just another bug-filled DRM'd release that the government uses to spy on you."

      Yep, I really hate that knee-jerk wait-and-see attitude. I mean how irrational can you get?

      --
      Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    6. Re:This shows publicity priorities... by Serapth · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You make it sound like one division at Microsoft gains because another division loses. This is just a silly way to view things. Its not like Microsoft is delaying Vista because they have over allocated resources to the CE group.

      How about this for a reality check view of things. First of, Microsoft has 90%+ of the desktop OS market, but maybe 1/3 of the portable market, with 1/3 stretching things huge. Where would you allocate your resources to? Secondly, which do you think would be easier to make... a consumer OS for an unlimited variety of hardware and 20 years of legacy to support? Or, an embedded OS with very little legacy support and a much lower level of hardware requirements?

      The thing im wondering is how much does CE 6 have to do with Microsofts push to having gaming across all platforms. Is CE6 purely CE5 with better gaming/.Net support?

    7. Re:This shows publicity priorities... by ZSpade · · Score: 1

      What I meant was that Microsoft was a lot more public about Vista before they even really had anything to show for it (remember longhorn.) But they waited with CE6 until they had something to show for, rather than creating a lot of hype for something still on the drawing board.

      I never meant that they placed more importance on one over the other, or that focus on one effected the other. Microsoft is a big corp with a lot of divisions, and I've got a feeling what one division does isn't going to have a whole lot of effect on what another is doing.

      --
      Go ahead and call me unreliable; reliable is just a synonym for predictable.
    8. Re:This shows publicity priorities... by Serapth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ah... thats simple to explain. Microsoft has to hype Vista all the way to hell and back, simply because who is their biggest competition? Its not linux... its not Mac OS X, its Windows Xp/2000. They need to convince people to buy the new product and thus keep their purse lined with gold, or their business model fails.

      In the embeded market there is no such presure. For the most part, people dont "upgrade" devices like the do computers. Point blank Microsoft needs to convince millions of people with the mindset of "Xp is good enough" that XP isnt good enough, while at the same time convincing them that the alternatives arent any better. Not a place I would like to be personally... but then they did it with 2K users going to XP, so dont be shocked if they do it again.

    9. Re:This shows publicity priorities... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, people who hate anything from Microsoft suck. People like me just don't use their products, because their products are either too expensive or too poorly designed (or both). Oh yeah, and the deliberately disabled features thing sucks too.

    10. Re:This shows publicity priorities... by glens · · Score: 1

      Sorry that I'm too lazy to look it up just now, but I've posted it here a couple or few times over the last few years: There's an article yet at archive.org which is an interview of Bill Gates at an Indonesian (I believe) journalistic web site where he was asked whether he was concerned about competition from Linux. He answered that he didn't [at that time] consider Linux a competitor. He considered his biggest competitors to be his installed user base who were content with what they had.

      I guess I can see his point of view on that, but it would sure make me reluctant to ever do business with a company who openly considered me a competitor as a result!

      At any rate, it's concrete confirmation of the idea you'd expressed.

  5. Surprise? by AnalystX · · Score: 5, Informative

    What was the surprise? Microsoft showed off a new version of its mobile OS to a mobile developer's conference, or that they included .Net? (.Net. You know, that dev platform that Microsoft would port to your bathroom shower head if they could).

    1. Re:Surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We all knw only NET BSD runs on the showerheads though!

    2. Re:Surprise? by smbarbour · · Score: 1

      It looks like the development environment is being ported. The .NET framework has been available on the past few revisions of CE (The Pocket PC versions). I have a Pocket PC handheld for that purpose (Too much of a learning curve for Palm programming. My C++ skills are absent since I've not used them in years).

    3. Re:Surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows Mobile != Windows CE

      Windows CE is the OS. Windows Mobile is the OS + Shell customizations for use as a PDA/Phone/Smartphone. So while announcements about Windows Mobile may have been going around, announcements about a new version of Windows CE have not.

    4. Re:Surprise? by AnalystX · · Score: 1

      I hope you had a point to that. As far as I could tell, nobody was saying anything about Windows Mobile in this thread. I know I simply referred to a Microsoft mobile OS. In other words, I don't find it surprising that Microsoft used the MEDC to announce a new OS version to be used in mobile markets. Now I would have been surprised if Microsoft announced it at an Apple event.

    5. Re:Surprise? by AnalystX · · Score: 1

      According to the article it is .NET [CF] 2.0 support that is being added, and as far as I'm concerned, that is the only real .NET. Who would actually develop in a CE environment? I think I would rather have root canal surgery.

    6. Re:Surprise? by zeroduck · · Score: 1

      .NET CF 2.0 has been around for a while... in fact, you can get 2.0 on most devices except for PocketPC 2002. I believe it's the development debugging tools they are announcing.

    7. Re:Surprise? by MioTheGreat · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the System.Bathroom.Shower namespace.....

    8. Re:Surprise? by AnalystX · · Score: 1

      As I understand it, the news of supporting .NET CF 2.0 relates to WinCE 6 versus its predecessor (WinCE 5.0), not WinCE 4.2, and even 2.0 for 4.2 has only been out for a short while.

    9. Re:Surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the big surprise was supposed to be the VS integration and the beta. While devs knew CE 6 was coming, they didn't really know what the IDE integration was coming.

    10. Re:Surprise? by tehcyder · · Score: 0
      You know, that dev platform that Microsoft would port to your bathroom shower head if they could
      I thought I'd had to restart my shower more often recently than I used to.
      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  6. FTM makes surprise flatulence release by Fecal+Troll+Matter · · Score: -1

    Smells like roses.

  7. Last time i checked... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "MS's .NET IDE"

    Last time I checked .Net was was a VM and not an IDE

    1. Re:Last time i checked... by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Actually, what microsoft calls it, is a solution. A set of packaged technologies that are supposedly designed to work together for a better business experience or some other crap like that.
      .NET VM is one of their present technologies that's designed to knock off java, but far from the only thing present. Including a lot of things that people already pay for, such as visual studio.
      If you go to the .NET homepage, you'll not see any sort of runtime environment mentioned.

  8. Microsoft windows cE 6.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    This is no surprise to people "embedded" in India, where the CE embedded software was developed. Soon, with all the development shipped over to India, you should hopefully see an end to delays in the rollout of the desktop version as well. Not only is India cheaper , but also , it looks like it's faster. Probably because they do what they're told rather than standing around smirking.

    1. Re:Microsoft windows cE 6.0 by mrbooze · · Score: 1

      That has absolutely not been my company's experience with doing development in India. Indian staff and offices *are* much cheaper, sometimes orders of magnitude cheaper than US offices, but the productivity out of our Indian offices is nowhere near that of others. Going forward I've been told India will be used mainly for doing QA work. Another common complaint I hear about India is the very high turnover. It's like the old dot-com days in Silicon Valley where everyone only stays at a job for a few months, just long enough to learn what they need to hop to the next better paying job. Ironically, we employ a large number of Indians in our California offices as well, and *their* productivity is typically pretty high. Heck, at this point, the California engineering teams are mostly Indian, with almost 100% of the Engineering management being Indian as well.

      Now, Canada, on the other hand, I've been told that our Canadian offices are a much better value. Not as cheap as India, but much cheaper than the US (not only are salaries cheaper, but the company doesn't pay as much if anything for health benefits) and the productivity of the Canadian offices are fairly high.

      I'm pretty sure we do some development out of Israel as well, but I honestly haven't heard much from the engineering managers about those offices, so I don't know what the costs and productivity are like there.

  9. Surprise?-A heated arrival by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "(.Net. You know, that dev platform that Microsoft would port to your bathroom shower head if they could)."

    Clippy: I see you would like to take a shower?

    Clippy: Would you like hot water, or cold?

    User: Some of both.

    User: AHHHEEEE!

    User: I said medium you stupid !@#%~.

  10. real-time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    me no think so

  11. Windows CE realtime? by Locutus · · Score: -1, Troll

    LOL.

    I guess if you're counting ocean waves you could call it realtime.

    And a rewrite huh? Maybe we should check for the WMF expoit code to see if any more of the Windows 3.x code made it into another rewritten Microsoft operating system. ;-)

    LoB

    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    1. Re:Windows CE realtime? by ad0gg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Um do you know what a realtime operation system is? Glad someone modded you insightful, because your post was truly that.

      --

      Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

    2. Re:Windows CE realtime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's pretty clear he doesn't

    3. Re:Windows CE realtime? by throx · · Score: 4, Informative
      I guess if you're counting ocean waves you could call it realtime.

      Realtime has absolutely nothing to do with the relative speed of the OS or GUI. What it means is that the OS can *guarantee* a response to an input within a defined period of time. While that time is typically very short, you could still technically be realtime if you could demonstrate guaranteed response within 24 hours (though you wouldn't be particularly useful).

      Again, technically that's "hard" realtime. "Soft" realtime system are just pretenders that can't really guarantee anything and just look kinda like a preemptive OS with priority levels and the like.

      Linux is not a realtime system (without very specific extensions anyway). You don't really want a general purpose OS as "realtime" anyway - it just doesn't help things at all and tends to complicate the processing model.

      CE 5.0 (and probably 6.0) are not hard realtime systems. Even at the OEM level (where you can actually write real ISRs) there's no guaranteed response time, just a bunch of realtime looking stuff. At the Application Developer, or even Device Driver level (ISTs, not ISRs) you are so far from realtime it really doesn't make much sense to talk about it in those terms.

      If you read between the lines on this report from Microsoft you can glean most of what I've said.
      --

      Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means

    4. Re:Windows CE realtime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Any post on Slashdot involving the bashing of Microsoft must be considered insightful.

    5. Re:Windows CE realtime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wikipedia is completely wrong about Windows CE. No one in the RT arena would ever consider it as a real-time OS.

    6. Re:Windows CE realtime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      He's right though. It's not a real-time OS, nor is Linux (out of the box anyway), Symbian OS is.

    7. Re:Windows CE realtime? by ClosedSource · · Score: 0

      Well, you're mostly right. In a hard realtime OS, it's consistency of timing that matters, not its upper bound.

      If you have a timing problem in a hard realtime system, merely increasing the processing speed will not solve it. It's more like a dance than a race.

    8. Re:Windows CE realtime? by HalWasRight · · Score: 1
      You don't really want a general purpose OS as "realtime" anyway - it just doesn't help things at all and tends to complicate the processing model.

      In what way does an RTOS complicate the "processing model"? On the aplication side you can use pthreads on a posix conforming RTOS and you get better response time to events from the drivers than you would with a posix conforming non-RTOS like Linux.

      --
      "This mission is too important to allow you to jeopardize it." -- HAL
    9. Re:Windows CE realtime? by throx · · Score: 1

      No. The definition of hard realtime is all about maximum latency, not consistency. While it is certainly advantageous to be consistent, as long as you are deterministically better than your maximum defined latency then you are hard realtime.

      I challenge you to find any definition of hard realtime that talks about consistency and not deterministic maximum response time.

      --

      Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means

    10. Re:Windows CE realtime? by throx · · Score: 2, Informative

      On a true hard RTOS, you have to worry about all sorts of artifacts like priority inversion, not holding exclusive locks for non-deterministic lengths of time and other stuff like that. With a general purpose operating system, it's discouraged but the system will let you do it.

      The fact that you can't wait on stuff for too long adds a whole bunch of complexity to your processing - mainly in the error handling and timeout handling code where you have to decide how to handle errors in what is very likely an unattended environment.

      --

      Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means

    11. Re:Windows CE realtime? by el_jake · · Score: 1
      Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means


      [blink]>A:[/blink]edlin.exe (wait, wait wait damn those pesky large editors.)
      B8 00 4C ( MOV AX,0x4c00 )
      CD 21 ( CALL INT 21 )
      [blink]>A:[/blink]
      WTF, who messed with debug.exe

      I recall this from the old MS DOS days as the TERMNINATOR string.
      Once wrote a macro called hastalavista pop es, mov ah 49, int 21, mov, ax 3100

      Nothing like an early memory release, priceless if the memory segement is not owned by you.

      FEAR: M$ invented the virus!
      Horror: if you understand any of the above. Because you age combined with the fact that you are reading slashdot equals greybeardedgeek wich is more powerfull than our Precious.
      --
      In order to form an immaculate member of a flock of sheep one must, above all, be a sheep.
    12. Re:Windows CE realtime? by Zordak · · Score: 1

      Troll? Come on people. No Windows is anything like an RTOS. You don't go to the trouble and expense of writing a real-time OS so you can run sol.exe and some mobile version of Outlook. You use a real-time OS when you've got time-critical control systems and things absolutely must happen within a certain time. You won't see one on a $300 PDA.

      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    13. Re:Windows CE realtime? by ad0gg · · Score: 1

      How about medical devices? Or manufactoring control systems?

      --

      Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

    14. Re:Windows CE realtime? by BreadMan · · Score: 1

      I don't think the hardware timers on those cheap-o devices aren't good enough to drive RT software anyway. You can't be RT if the underlying hardware can't generate dependable clock ticks.

    15. Re:Windows CE realtime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes it not a real-time operating system?

    16. Re:Windows CE realtime? by Zordak · · Score: 1

      Sorry, still not convinced. The medical devices don't even claim to be real time, and the controllers just say you can buy third party software to make a real-time OS out of Windows. I don't know why you would want to do either. There is time-tested, proven software that handles these tasks quite capably. And that is not just a Microsoft-bashing one-liner. Some of those companies are just as dodgy about licensing and lock-in as Microsoft is. But they know how to do real time. Use the right tool for the job. If you want pretty widgets, go with Microsoft or Apple. If you want rock-solid real time, go with something like VxWorks.

      --

      Today's Sesame Street was brought to you by the number e.
    17. Re:Windows CE realtime? by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      On your sig, terminate process? I feel older than I am. And like more of a geek.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    18. Re:Windows CE realtime? by HalWasRight · · Score: 1

      You can get priority inversion with ANY threading package, including pthreads and Java as both allow you to set priorities. You can get deadlock in ANY multi-threaded program, including pthreads and Java programs. There is nothing magic about an RTOS. Now building real time systems with an RTOS is something that very few people seem to grasp.

      --
      "This mission is too important to allow you to jeopardize it." -- HAL
    19. Re:Windows CE realtime? by throx · · Score: 1

      A lot of non-RT systems have protection against priority inversion, doing funky things like boosting priority of threads that haven't been run for a while and other good stuff that goes against the stict priority ordering your typical RTOS will enforce.

      I have no idea why you mentioned deadlocks, but I figure it's because you didn't understand my statement on waiting forever on an object. On a typical RTOS you just can't do that. This has nothing to do with deadlocking, this has to do with how long you can wait around for something to happen - especially if you are holding a spinlock. Try it for yourself some day: grab a kernel resource and do a while(i++);. Then do the same thing on a true hard RTOS and see the difference.

      There is something "magic" about RTOSes and it's the very definition of them: they are *deterministic* in their response to input. This places all sorts of restrictions all through your code and if you aren't aware of them then you're going to get some crazy buggy software in all sorts of non obvious ways.

      --

      Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means

    20. Re:Windows CE realtime? by HalWasRight · · Score: 1

      Most RTOSes have optional priority inversion safe semaphores. I can't think of an RTOS that doesn't provide semaphores, as opposed to spin-locks. An RTOS places no restrictions on APPLICATION code. An RTOS does place restrictions on DRIVER code. You are right that the things you decribe cannot be done in driver code. But from an application API and multi-threaded programming point of view, an RTOS looks like any other OS.

      --
      "This mission is too important to allow you to jeopardize it." -- HAL
    21. Re:Windows CE realtime? by throx · · Score: 1

      I see your point. My argument there is once you've reached the application level you describe then things are no longer "realtime". The primary reason for using RTOS is the guaranteed interrupt response time, which means driver code. Once you get away from guaranteed times then you're absolutely correct - things look pretty normal.

      --

      Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means

    22. Re:Windows CE realtime? by Locutus · · Score: 1

      yes I know what realtime means and I stand by my comment. Windows CE is not an RTOS as considered by those in the field. No matter what label Microsoft puts on it.

      Microsoft is a MARKETING COMPANY so for them to SAY their OS is realtime capable must be taken with a grain of salt. Just how RT capable is it and how must the hardware be customized to help it get to that point? At best, can it monitor the surf reliably and is this the criteria MSFT used to validate Windows is RT capable? ;-)

      IMO, this is a marketing trick to try and keep up the marketshare of WinCE as the phone hardware vendors move to consolidate the chipsets of the highend models. Where there used to be a CPU for the UI OS and a CPU for the telecom OS, there's a move to use only one CPU and some shared resources to lower the costs and shrink the size. And my guess is that these RT WinCE phones are going to be dropping calls. But, lucky for Microsoft, the customers will more likely to be blaming the carrier unless Windows BSODs or something indicates it's Windows failing.

      Oh, and did you know that Microsoft has lost over $9 billion on Windows CE so far and only had one profitable quarter? The quarter following Microsofts cutting of its R&D budget by ~$3.5 billion. Surprisingly, a couple of other MSFT marketing divisions showed profits for the first time during this quarter too... My gawd, it's been almost 10 years already and they STILL can't make a profit off of, The Little Windows That Couldn't.

      When they stop trying to change my MIND with press releases and start providing products which stand on their own in the marketplace, THEN I'll consider not looking at them as a MARKETING COMPANY first and a technology company second or third.

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    23. Re:Windows CE realtime? by Locutus · · Score: 1

      Remember one thing, Microsoft is a marketing company first and foremost.
      And also know that using Windows where it didn't belong was responsible for this event:

      http://socalscanner.com/2004/091604_1.htm

      Microsoft can say that their software is this or that, but their EULA and their legal people make sure they are not responsible for how it runs, or doesn't run. Oh, and I don't think most of what they say in court or to the press is really true. It might be true to what the definition of MS-TRUTH is but then again, that is not the same definition others have for truth.
      IMO.

      LoB

      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    24. Re:Windows CE realtime? by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      My comment was based on my personal professional experience, not on looking it up online. If your definition fully describes hard realtime, than there are clearly realtime systems that are significantly "harder" than hard realtime. There are environments in which events need to occur with an accuracy of 1 CPU cycle. You can't be 1 CPU cycle early or 1 CPU cycle late. Anyone who has done bleeding-edge Atari 2600 game programming is familiar with this sort of "harder" realtime requirement.

    25. Re:Windows CE realtime? by HalWasRight · · Score: 1

      The predictable response time in an RTOS extends up to the application level. Interrupt to semaphore release time is a figure of merit with regard to RTOSes.

      --
      "This mission is too important to allow you to jeopardize it." -- HAL
    26. Re:Windows CE realtime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A real-time os can guarantee scheduling. CE cannot.

  12. Ya know... by the+phantom · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...WinCE just makes me want to wince.

    --
    Rhapsody in Numbers
    1. Re:Ya know... by Tyrion+Moath · · Score: 1

      I laughed at the tag used for the whole tagging beta thing.

    2. Re:Ya know... by martinultima · · Score: 1

      Maybe Microsoft should buy out Nintendo – after all, they're both in it for world domination, and they both have such talented names going on. Wii-CE, anyone?

      --
      Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
  13. when will they fix version 5.0 by atomclock · · Score: -1, Troll

    I am so tired of Microsoft. They never fix anything! They release a buggy piece of crap (Name your MS OS here) and then ignore the problems and release a new and improved buggy piece of crap (name your MS OS here). When will MS actually fix one of their products to function as advertised. This sort of behavior is not tolorated with any other company. Why does Microsoft get a pass from the public and government?

    1. Re:when will they fix version 5.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because Microsoft runs the government. Recall the recent security audits???

  14. Wow by xXenXx · · Score: 1

    I haven't used Windows CE since my old Hitachi S3 Windows CE palmtop (which I still have today), on that thing it's basically a black and white Windows 95 without dos.

    Has it changed much since then?

    1. Re:Wow by Samus · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      No, not much at all. I think they added color but that is probably all. Don't worry your 1990's tech is still not out of date.

      --
      In Republican America phones tap you.
    2. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes you have.

      Windows PocketPC is windows CE.. PocketPC2000 was CE 4.11 + added libs and upgraded apps.

      All other PocketPC releases were simply incremental with lib and app upgrades.

      I always got a kick out of the fanbois that touted that PocketPC was better than CE when it IS nothing but a rebranded CE.

    3. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hmm, just imagine:
      'A new SIM card has been detected. Do you want to connect to Microsoft to search for a driver?'

  15. Hardly Closed by Zebra_X · · Score: 4, Informative

    "Also new is support for MS's .NET IDE. Together, these new capabilities seem calculated to morph CE from a closed-box, off-the-shelf OS into a more customizable OS."

    CE is hardly closed and not really "off the shelf". For starters the source code for the OS is available as part of the platform builder tool. Also, the platform builder tool allows you to create releases of windows CE with different configurations, drivers and applications pre-isntalled. It is the equavlent of being about to build a custom image of windows XP, sans the explorer GUI interface (Desktop), or other system services such as RDP. The only problem is that CE looks about as old as it is, it will be nice to have a UI update. It is also the only OS that MS makes that is a "hard" real time OS and whose kernel does not provide GUI services. CE is also currently suported by VS.NET 2005, though not on the native C++ side. However, .NET applications can run on the CF 2.0 under CE and can be cable debugged, or remotely accessed using the RDP client.

    1. Re:Hardly Closed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      It is also the only OS that MS makes that is a "hard" real time OS

      lol, you must know more than Microsoft. Even they themselve don't claim that...

      Also, only PART of the source code is available, not 100%.

    2. Re:Hardly Closed by Locke2005 · · Score: 2, Informative

      For starters the source code for the OS is available as part of the platform builder tool. Which parts are source actually provided for? I thought it was just source for the BSP, and not for all the DLLs... at least it was back when I was using WinCE.

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    3. Re:Hardly Closed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought it was just source for the BSP, and not for all the DLLs... at least it was back when I was using WinCE.
      That was certainly true when I was developing a CE.NET 4.2 platform. I doubt very much they'd open up any more than absolutely necessary.

      BTW, I hope the .NET Compact Framework 2.0 is a lot less "compact" than CF 1.0, that restricted API truly sucked. As they seem to be at least encouraging bigger-footprint devices, it'd be nice if developers had a bit more power at their disposal. Some of the hacks in the Compact Framework made doing any kind of non-trivial application hell. The (one and only) UI thread used to get so pre-empted you could watch the individual borders of a frame getting drawn on a screen refresh. Ugh.

    4. Re:Hardly Closed by ReluctantRefactorer · · Score: 1

      CE is also currently suported by VS.NET 2005, though not on the native C++ side

      Er, of course native C++ development for CE is supported in Visual Studio 2005.

      If you're talking application development for Windows Smartphone and Pocket PC, VS2005 supports C++, ATL and COM development. Pocket PC adds MFC support.

      By the way, it's not called Visual Studio.NET 2005, they've dropped the .NET part.

      --
      RR
    5. Re:Hardly Closed by Zebra_X · · Score: 1

      BTW, I hope the .NET Compact Framework 2.0 is a lot less "compact" than CF 1.0, that restricted API truly sucked.

      There are still a number of restrictions. Most of the remoting has been pulled out, which is not great considering that many devices today have a level of connectivity that would make this useful. A good deal of the niceness in ADO doesn't exist either. Serial port programming is a breeze now which is nice.

      The (one and only) UI thread used to get so pre-empted you could watch the individual borders of a frame getting drawn on a screen refresh. Ugh.

      The threading restrictions still exist. Although it sounds like this may change with CE 6, due out this fall.

    6. Re:Hardly Closed by Zebra_X · · Score: 1

      "Windows CE is a hard real-time operating system."

      http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/usewinemb/ce/te chno/realtme/default.aspx

      The code avaiability is best explained here:

      http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/usewinemb/ce/sh aredsrccode/default.aspx

      The bottom line is that the core CE code is made available, but many of the appliactions, services, and drivers are not.

  16. Another move on the handheld/phone market by hguorbray · · Score: 3, Informative

    This ties in with Microsoft's renewed partnership with Qualcom:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/08/microsoft_ qualcomm_alliance/

    Microsoft and Qualcom wish to make common cause against Nokia -Qualcom due to CDMA and Microsoft due to Symbian OS and mobile Linux. Microsoft has had difficulty in getting any major manufacturer to use their platform on phones due to manufacturer's rightful fears of being commoditized as PC makers have been. .NET will help support a lot of distributed apps and better concurrent apps and memory handling will allow for 'media-rich' phones as phones and PDAs converge.

    -that said, they're both bastards and the success of this venture will lead to more microsoft lockin.

    -What's the speed of dark?

    1. Re:Another move on the handheld/phone market by ashpool7 · · Score: 1

      Turning phones into a commodity would be a boon for customers. Could I not then pick out any phone I wanted instead of being limited to whatever my carrier has in fashion this week? Not that I think they should all standardize on WinCE, but some form of standardization (can we get SIM cards of sorts for CDMA phones already?) would be nice.

    2. Re:Another move on the handheld/phone market by edxwelch · · Score: 1

      I think the main reason for manufactures staying away from it was that the earlier versions being so poor. Also fear of dealing with Microsoft also has something to do with it ( after what they did to Sendo).
      I seriously doubt Microsoft will ever make a comeback in the mobile world.

  17. Transcript of Press Conference by Stanistani · · Score: 3, Funny

    *Crickets chirping*
    .
    .
    .
    .
    *taps microphone*
    .
    .
    .
    "Is this thing... on?"

    --
    You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
    1. Re:Transcript of Press Conference by dean.collins · · Score: 1

      lol - it's almost like that....is anyone even releasing product on Win CE anymore with Windows Mobile 5.0 being such a defacto these days.

      Also is anyone aware of the new entirely Java OS for mobile phones from www.Savaje.com ?

      They are launching the first of their mobile hardware solutions at JavaOne next week in SF along with the sdk for your code.

      Basically the idealogy behind savaje is that anyone can build java applications that will run on your phone today right now and best of all be able to interface with applications and devices over the data stream via the internet.

      more info here http://deancollinsblog.blogspot.com/2006/05/javaon e.html

      I'll be on the Savaje stand at JavaOne (working for an as yet un-named 3rd party development partner)

      Cheers,

      Dean Collins
      http://www.cognation.net/

  18. This could be where the money is. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The number of embedded systems dwarfs the number of desktop computers. Microsoft really shouldn't cede this market to Linux.

  19. -1 off-topic by ranjix · · Score: 1

    I love the "An anonymous reader writes...". what's next? "In a related news, an anonymous writer reads..." ? the allways surprising crowd of /...
    Otherwise I couldn't care less about the announcement. I swear

    --
    I had another sig before, but this one is better
  20. So.. by GmAz · · Score: 1

    So, the new Windows Mobile 5 that just came out is already going to be replaced. I know its early, but come on, give us some time to enjoy having the newest OS for our mobile devices.

    --
    Click Click Bloody Click PANCAKES!
    1. Re:So.. by dragonedge · · Score: 1

      I know! I just bought the Tmobile MDA. Came out almost 2 months ago!! WTF

    2. Re:So.. by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      take all the time you want. there aren't any updates yet

    3. Re:So.. by pimpimpim · · Score: 1
      GP's remark and the other remarks I read that wince 5.0 already had .Net compatibility makes me wonder a bit if this is a remake or an update? Maybe they're just misusing their numbering system to hide the fact that they just needed some bugsfixes on 5.0 out.

      Anyway, it doesn't sound like a too good idea, I guess the manufacturers that just put 5.0 on their devices might be a bit pissed about making a series of devices that just recently came out obsolete with this move.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
  21. I hate to admit it, but... by soren42 · · Score: 4, Informative

    While I'm certainly no fan of the Windows family of operating systems on desktops or servers (or PDAs, for that matter), I've recently found myself appreciating a Windows Embedded product. When I bought a new Honda in November, I fell in love with the navigation system - so much so that when I sought to purchase another new vehicle last month, the nav system was a requirement.

    After some research and discussion, I was dishearted to find that the navigation systems I had grown to love so much were actually powered by Windows Automotive Edition - based on Windows Embedded, which is a flavor of Windows CE. While I cannot actually tell (by any means) that the system is Windows-based, it is very stable, responsive, fast, and user friendly - most of which is probably of function of the application and not the operating system.

    All that said, I'm still psyched about CE 6 if it provides further media access features, hardware drivers, and other niceitys.

    I have real pain saying I'm psyched about a Windows product as a Linux and Mac OS geek! :) But, if it helps me get a better navigation system, I'll sell my soul to Redmond.

    --

    "Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things."
    1. Re:I hate to admit it, but... by kfg · · Score: 5, Funny

      I once asked my "navigation system" which way we went from here and she looked at the map and said, "Up."

      Maybe it's time to upgrade.

      KFG

    2. Re:I hate to admit it, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      here's the official press release from Microsoft regarding the Honda/Alpine/Microsoft partnership..

      http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/jan0 6/01-05InfotainmentExperiencesPR.mspx

    3. Re:I hate to admit it, but... by misleb · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Wow, navigation system. What a luxury. I just keep an atlas in my back seat. Love the user interface! Ya know, for a systems administrator, I sure am low tech. I don't even own a cell phone.

      -matthew

      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    4. Re:I hate to admit it, but... by T-Ranger · · Score: 2, Funny

      Usualy a closed fist to the throat area solves problems like that.

    5. Re:I hate to admit it, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey! Who cares what you do or don't have?

    6. Re:I hate to admit it, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You!

    7. Re:I hate to admit it, but... by superburger · · Score: 2, Funny

      I have always used "Windows" as my primary navigation aid when driving.

      Mainly by looking out of them

    8. Re:I hate to admit it, but... by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1

      So how many times a day do you reboot your Honda then?

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    9. Re:I hate to admit it, but... by rtb61 · · Score: 1
      And you have never heard of that checky little red devil, BSD. The reality of course is it is still a dead end, why pay a licence fee on mass comsumer disposable products.

      Attempting to use win ce in the long run is just a cost mill stone to place about your neck, competitors who go for embedded linux immediately have a licence free head start, control over their own development direction and they avoid their one time partner becoming their monopoly abusing competitor.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    10. Re:I hate to admit it, but... by PinkPanther · · Score: 1
      I was dishearted to find that the navigation systems I had grown to love so much were actually powered by Windows Automotive Edition
      1. Why disheartened?
      2. Why does having a good appliation make you appreciate its underlying OS?
      That's like saying you are a Linux fan because of the great browser.
      --
      It's a simple matter of complex programming.
  22. Correction regarding IDE by Qwavel · · Score: 4, Informative


    "Also new is support for MS's .NET IDE."

    Windows CE is already supported by VS.NET 2005. And I don't just mean for .NET applications. I have written C++ apps using VC8 for deployment to WinCE 5.0.

    1. Re:Correction regarding IDE by themoneyish · · Score: 1

      I think they're talking about the IDE being installed on the mobile device with CE; not an IDE that runs on a PC that supports Windows CE Application Development.

    2. Re:Correction regarding IDE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You probably did not RTFA. Actually, the new thing is Platform Builder support in VS2005, not creating application. Basically what it means is you can compile the OS to your target platform using VS2005 (with the plugin, of course) without the need of using seperate tools.

  23. Pocket Internet Explorer? by coop535 · · Score: 1

    What a let down. I was praying for Pocket Internet Explorer to get a shot in the arm. This release is great for both embedded developers and ISVs, but I got nothin! Then again, I might get a surprise ... when I find out my new fangled PVR runs windows (ce) outside of a firewall. Surprise!

  24. Several orders of magnitude? by Tim+C · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary defines several as meaning "some... fewer than many" and many as "a large number of".

    Given that, I think it's fair to assume that three is not too large a number to be "several"; certainly, about that many is what I generally mean when I say "several". Working on that basis, then, supporting "several orders of magnitude more concurrent processes" means supporting about three orders of magnitude more processes. Three orders of magnitude is 1000 (=10^3). If we up "several" to four or five, we have 10,000 or 100,000.

    Perhaps the OS can support that many concurrent processes (although I admit to having my doubts), but I'd be amazed if any hardware it runs on does.

    --
    It's official. Most of you are morons.
    1. Re:Several orders of magnitude? by agentcdog · · Score: 1

      HelllooOOoo! It's a computer. Try 2^3=8. Eight times as many. Silly decimals.

      --
      If I understand Dirac correctly, his meaning is this: there is no God, and Dirac is his Prophet. -Pauli
    2. Re:Several orders of magnitude? by MooUK · · Score: 1

      I tend to go by the following:

      Couple = 2
      Few = 3-4
      Several = 5-7 or possibly slightly higher.

    3. Re:Several orders of magnitude? by Maxmin · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Order of magnitude" is a base ten factor. Silly humans. ;)

      --
      O lord, bless this thy holy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
  25. going price by jefu · · Score: 0, Troll

    So, what does a soul go for in Redmond these days? (I'm so resisting the temptation to say something about souls being at a premium there as so many have already been sold.)

  26. Hope they make it faster by bobm · · Score: 1

    I have a smart phone (SX66) and even with it's 400Mhz processor it's not what I would call fast.

    I'm pretty confused since there isn't that much screen to refresh (320x200 or so) and it's not running a bunch of stuff.

    Has anyone ever profiled the OS? I'm really curious if the hardware is just sucky and slow (i.e. really slow bus, etc) or if the OS is just not well structured.

    I can remember the old 4.7Mhz days and can't how a 100x increase in clock speed can produce something so unimpressive in performance.

    Of course this is all 'seat of the pants' observations since I seen any benchmark apps out there.

    1. Re:Hope they make it faster by Frangible · · Score: 1

      I ran it ok on a 90mhz MIPS CPU (IBM z50) and 75mhz SH3 (HP 620LX), and the gold standard for WinCE running well was the original iPaq, which had a 206mhz StrongARM CPU. The graphics architecture in most devices is pretty horrible, but most 2D apps should run fine with that speed of CPU.

  27. Microsoft's Version of Linux by Ben174 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    WinCE is Microsoft's stab at a Linux type of OS. With packages, dependencies, and multiple architecture support, I believe it is the future of Microsoft -- eventually to replace Windows altogether... It's the complete rewrite of Windows we've all been waiting for.

    --
    Here is my home page.
    1. Re:Microsoft's Version of Linux by DigitlDud · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, its kind of necessary given the fact that CE has to run on some pretty limited and varied hardware. It's also very different from Linux in that it's a real-time OS and can run without interrupts enabled.

    2. Re:Microsoft's Version of Linux by onx · · Score: 1

      It's also like linux (for embedded tech) in the fact that it doesn't matter how much of a pain in the ass it would be for the consumer to setup, or in what wide, constantly changing, bleeding edge hardware configurations it has to work for, seemlessly, and easily...for the consumer.

  28. Orders of magnitude! by Manzanita · · Score: 3, Funny

    Wow! I am looking forward to being able to run "several orders of magnitude more concurrent processes." That will be 5, maybe 6 thousand concurrent processes, probably as many as 100 times as many as on my server at home! Cool!

    1. Re:Orders of magnitude! by Slashcrap · · Score: 1

      Wow! I am looking forward to being able to run "several orders of magnitude more concurrent processes." That will be 5, maybe 6 thousand concurrent processes, probably as many as 100 times as many as on my server at home! Cool!

      Actually the new version can run 32,000 simultaneous processes. I shit you not.

      As we all know, emebedded software developers have been crying out for the ability to run 32,000 processes on a fucking PDA for years.

  29. CSS Suport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...but does their phone browser support css yet?

    i started coding a phone based app and had to learn to style tables w/o css.

    i quit that project.

    what a nightmare - and it was a small app.

  30. Win CE != Windows Mobile by podRZA · · Score: 2, Informative

    Win CE is a collection of services that can be used to build a custom embedded OS. Windows Mobile is one of these custom OS's. for more info: http://blogs.msdn.com/mikehall/archive/2005/03/15/ 395958.aspx

  31. what is it by jrldh2 · · Score: 1

    with Microsoft and major rewrites ("CE 6 looks to be a major rewrite") ??? As if the new one is so much better because it was rewritten? Given that there was hardly ground breaking research in OS design unveiled in the last few years, does that mean that the "old" WinCE code base was shit? I mean multi-millions in development costs in writing WinCE in the past for naught? Does MS not have competent SW architects and coders so that already written code can be used as a basis for new releases? Rewritten code == newly written bugs. How stupid.

    1. Re:what is it by Thundersnatch · · Score: 1
      Given that there was hardly ground breaking research in OS design unveiled in the last few years

      I don't know, Singularity seems pretty ground-breaking to me. Far more interesting than anything I've heard about since Plan 9, anyway.

  32. Re:Several orders of magnitude? YES. by gibson042 · · Score: 1

    Many people have complained about the 32 process limit of Windows CE 5. According to Engadget, Windows CE 6 will support more than 32000 processes, which is indeed an increase of several orders of magnitude.

  33. Lol. by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    >> CE is the real-time OS that underpins Windows Mobile...

    CE Reatime. LOL.... Whatever. I guess Microsoft must have patented the definition of realtime or something.

    1. Re:Lol. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, there are two classes of realtime operating systems: Hard realtime and soft realtime.

      Hard realtime is the stricter of the two -- soft realtime is more like advisory realtime.

      Back in the day when I was working with Concurrent's CX/UX on Harris Nighthawks we had a sales rep
      come in from some company that had converted NT into a realtime OS. IIRC it was $10K or so for the volume
      we needed.

      Ahh, sweet nostalgia. It would be pretty cool to have an 8-way Harris Nighthawk again. Well, for about 15 minutes.
      And then that loud ass fan would grate on my nerves. That and I've got pocket calculators that are faster ;)

  34. Release? How odd... by Omnifarious · · Score: 1

    I thought Microsoft had forgotten the meaning of the word 'release'. They haven't seemed to have been able to do it for quite awhile now.

    --
    Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
  35. CE 6 looks to be a major rewrite by iminplaya · · Score: 1

    So can we call it Vista CE?

    --
    What?
    1. Re:CE 6 looks to be a major rewrite by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "So can we call it Vista CE?"

      Oh... I dunno. WinCE is definitely a more descriptive acronym.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    2. Re:CE 6 looks to be a major rewrite by heson · · Score: 1

      No, this one isn't vaporware anymore. Vista is just a concept, the prototyp you can get (labled beta) is not what you will get when it is released in some years.

  36. That's the point, dumbass. by XMilkProject · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The fact that people aren't even aware of their reliance on Windows CE is exactly the reason why it is so important Microsoft keeps on the ball with CE releases.

    I think you underestimate the sheer volume of Windows CE users, and almost none of them even know it. Most of your major car manufacurers use CE in their newer vehicles, especially luxury cars. It is in cable boxes, dvrs, exercise equipment, dish washers and point of sale systems... It is everywhere and being used more every day.

    And what is so wrong with XP that a new version is needed in a rush? Keep in mind that Vista is designed as a new generation of operating system, taking advantage of it (or even using it) will require pretty advanced and expensive hardware... Microsoft needs to wait until people are ready for it.

    --
    Big ones, small ones, some as big as yer 'ead!
    Give 'em a twist, a flick o' the wrist...
    1. Re:That's the point, dumbass. by drsmithy · · Score: 0
      Keep in mind that Vista is designed as a new generation of operating system, taking advantage of it (or even using it) will require pretty advanced and expensive hardware...

      A several-years-old standard desktop PC is "advanced and expensive hardware" ?

    2. Re:That's the point, dumbass. by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      Vista was going to be a new generation of OS, but as time's gone on the requirements have been scaled back, and now it's more of an evoluntionary upgrade. It certainly will not require hardware that's substantially more powerful than was common a few years years ago.

      When Microsoft does release what it originally intended Vista to be, I don't think it's going to be particularly pushing the hardware requirements. Fundamentally, the intention was to get .NET the primary focus of all development, and .NET isn't particularly bad in terms of resource usage. It's better than Java, and even Java isn't as bad as Java any more - the technology has improved and the performance has also improved.

      I think getting Vista out sooner not later will generally be a good thing. Vista is going to be more secure and more friendly than XP. It's still not the OS *I* want to use, but from what I've seen of it, it'll be a big improvement on XP, for me (because like everyone, I have to use it at work) and everyone else. We need more of the security issues of the NT OSes front-ends fixed. We need less of a mono-culture, and having different versions of Windows out there will help too.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  37. M$....M is for morons by PortHaven · · Score: 0, Troll

    So let me get this straight. They are getting ready to release a new version when they're just finally getting Windows Mobile 2005 phones to market. They haven't even fixed the bugs.

    I swear...they're !@#$% morons.

    - Saj

    PS - Slashdot is a moron too.

    a) a few symbols as alternative to swearing != ascii art
    b) 5 symbols != lame. :P

  38. Realtime by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

    I bet this is as much realtime as Windows XP Embedded is embedded. That is, it probably squeaks by the dictionary definition if you squint hard enough...

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
  39. Re:.NET!=Fast by kadnan · · Score: 1

    If its based on .NET then it cant be considered fast.I did few scripts for Windows Mobile 5 for Smartphone and it was not a good experience at all.Symbian rocks.

  40. More than 32 processes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Posted anon because of my connections: WinCE, as it is now, can only run 32 processes and more than that is required to runa reasonable feature set these days. i expect that all that has happened is that this has been incresed to 64 or 128 or so.

    From what I've seen happening inside Wince devices, I don't believe the real time attribute of WinCE that much.

    I believe that the only real reasons Microsoft is doing OK in this arena is because (1) They throw in huge amounts of money and don't mind making a huge loss to keep their foot in the door and (2) they have brand recognition (remember the non-slashdotters think Microsoft are miracle workers).

    Having worked on both embedded Linux and Windows CE at the kernel level, I far prefer Linux. Not for any hippy-dippy freedom reasons, but because Linux development is far faster. If I change a line of kernel code, it takes me less than 30 seconds to rebuild the kernel and have it booted up and running on a Linux board. WinCE will take many times longer than that, meaning less development gets done in a day.

    1. Re:More than 32 processes by Maxmin · · Score: 1

      If I change a line of kernel code ... WinCE will take many times longer than that

      Not to mention that you can't change the Wince kernel... :)

      --
      O lord, bless this thy holy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
  41. Every 18 months has been the norm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting



    A new version release every 18 months has been the norm so calling it "surprising" is naive. You won't see a GA user product for a year or more, though. One can only hope these won't be the junk that WM5 (CE5-based) user devices are.

  42. The Pro version is less than $3 per unit, and free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    The Pro version is less than $3 per unit, and free in many cases (anyone here can distribute CE-based devices free for non-commercial use). If you want Premium, that'll cost you about $15 per unit. Premium includes all the applications. Prices are subject to change. This is not an endorsement, but a 300 KB kernal is easy to get your little mind around, and yes, it can be hard real-time, as opposed to hard time which my Ex- is doing right now.

  43. Upgrades? by tHatDudeUK · · Score: 1

    Most PDA manufacturers will not even bother releasing an upgrade for pre-existing devices, which means if you want the newest fangled Windows CE, you have to buy a new device. Glad I read this as I will put off buying a new PDA until CE 6 is supplied in the box on the device.

  44. Virtual Memory on a PDA? by woodsrunner · · Score: 1

    The article really didn't explain this and it doesn't make sense. Isn't virtual memory a segment of hard drive space that is used as RAM? I am guessing they mean something else or it's just a marketing term, probably the latter.

    1. Re:Virtual Memory on a PDA? by 1g$man · · Score: 1

      > Isn't virtual memory a segment of hard drive space that is used as RAM?

      No. You're describing the use of a paging file. Paging != virtual memory. Virtual memory only means every process gets its own virtual address space... which could be backed by any sort of memory including physical RAM or file on disk. The point of virtual memory is so that programs can use their own memory addresses and the operating system maps them to physical locations that don't conflict with other programs.

    2. Re:Virtual Memory on a PDA? by woodsrunner · · Score: 1

      Doh! Thanks. I should have remembered that from school.

      Now it makes a lot more sense. Do you think this will help in keeping programs from taking over too much space? I seem to have difficulty in keeping my apps lean despite my best efforts at returning values to null and garbage collection, etc. This sounds like it will help reduce the need to reboot as often to free up memory. That would be nice.

    3. Re:Virtual Memory on a PDA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't virtual memory a segment of hard drive space that is used as RAM? I am guessing they mean something else or it's just a marketing term, probably the latter.

      Guess they are swapping to flash...

    4. Re:Virtual Memory on a PDA? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Maybe the mean using a CF/SD card, or a micro drive, as virtual...

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  45. Re:The Pro version is less than $3 per unit, and f by bensch128 · · Score: 1

    $3/unit seems pretty heavy to me. My bosses were not too happy when a vendor wanted $1/unit for a substantial subsystem and we build medical equipment (it's expensive but the user will pay for it anyway).

    Don't expect $15/unit winCE showing up anywhere in less then luxury good items. The economics doesn't make much sense...

    Cheers,
    Ben

  46. Obligtory Star Wars Reference by therealking · · Score: 1

    linux fanboi: These are not the updates your looking for...

    slashdotter: these are not the updates we're looking for

    --
    Gadget News at Gizmo.com
  47. Heart monitoring devices... by mikiN · · Score: 1

    ...running Windows CE?

    oohh i'm feeling very lightheaded now, think i'm going to pass ouqef-\/.bafs,.

    --
    The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
  48. Re:CF/SD card or micro drive by woodsrunner · · Score: 1

    That would be cool, especially a better way of using card memory. As it is now most PDA's don't combine the memory. A real annoying thing is that many PDA's with extra memory install the memory as a Storage space separate from Program space so you can't use it to boost performance only as storage which can be expanded more economically through a card which can also actually be faster.

  49. carriers lock-in vs commoditization by hguorbray · · Score: 1

    actually the lowend phones are commoditized already -they cost ~ 25$ or are given away 'free' when signing up for mobi service.

    HOWEVER, the service operators use sim cards and the like to 'lock' the phones so that they only work with their service.

    the real threat is the walled garden effect that .NET driven content would bring that could freeze out the non MS phones.