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Sony Hints At PS3 'Homebrew' Linux Plans
simoniker writes "Talking to the Japanese press, Sony executive Izumi Kawanishi has illuminated some of his company's PlayStation 3 Linux plans, indicating that it will be possible for individual 'homebrew' coders to create playable content for PS3, something actively blocked for Sony's PSP handheld. He commented: "Other then game studios tied to official developer licenses, we'd like to see various individuals participate in content creation for the PS3"."
PS2 linux failed because:
1) Sony crippled it and didn't give anything close to direct access to hardware, meaning very little hardware acceleration
2) Sony charged a big chunk of change to "buy" linux support
And Sony is actively trying to kill off PSP homebrew. So don't get your hopes up!
Ken Kutaragi will not get a cent from me.
The PS2 was supposed to support Linux. How many homebrewers bought the PS2 dev kit and actually had success?
How about the amazing no-show on the PSP?
And now the PS3 is supposed to be friendly? It'd be cheaper to buy a MacMini and howebrew up something for Ubuntu or OS X than the Sony PS3.
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Remember how PS2 homebrew development exploded when the PS2 Linux kit came out? Remember how many new and exciting independant games were released for the PS2?
This is going to be awesome.
I think we all remember how well their last attempt to bring Linux to their console went. Half-arsed and a complete joke.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
I think this would be a good move for Sony. I would definitely reconsider purchasing the console if I could run linux on it and I think many other people would reconsider too. $599 isn't too bad for a console+linux PC.
So Sony is going to go after the free software audience with a $600 console? Someone needs to recheck their math...
I don't see how there can be such a big difference in the stance of homebrew applications for their 2 main flagship products. Unless they are going to stop cracking down on these applications for the PSP, or else, this is just some lame attempt to recover from the bashing they are receiving at E3, since they've been bashed about a lot of things, including the crack downs on homebrew apps.
There was absolutely nothing that Sony even hinted that there might be "homebrew" application development on the PS3. Then Nintendo mentions it a little during their conference. Now Sony is once again trying to take ideas from Nintendo and incorperate them into their plan.
But it doesn't matter. It will turn out like their controller, stripped down features and poor implementation.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Why not get our hopes up a little, when before it didn't really do well and the comment from the article:
"indicating that it will be possible for individual 'homebrew' coders to create playable content for PS3"
seems to directly address your concern?
The most obvious answer is that Sony learned from the past lack up update with PS2 linux and furthermore wants to seed a variety of cool downloadable games, which they can take a cut of. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You don't need anything the $100 more version has if you're going to run Linux on it. You can run HD resolutions over component cables and you can hook up USB card readers and storage devices (there was a seperetae article where I think the same person casually mentioned that people who needed CF readers could just hook up normal USB ones).
I think it could be pretty reasonable as well.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
So, on the PSP, they are currently actively blocking any attempts of "homebrew" software. But for the PS3, they are going to allow it?
I don't see how there can be such a big difference in the stance of homebrew applications for their 2 main flagship products.
The difference is this. On the PSP, if someone creates a game you can play Sony gets no money.
On the PS3, if you crate a game for others to play you can probably sell it on the Sony online service and Sony gets a cut.
I'm pretty sure Sony intends this to be a way to have a lot of small games generated to give theonline service buzz, which benefits everyone. It's a shame they can't see reason on the PSP but at least they came to thier senses with the PS3 and it even makes sense in terms of a profit motive.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You've never used PS2 Linux
They only blocked access to the DVD file system. everything was intact down to the kernel source.
Clueless shit gets passed off as +5 Knowledgable here.
The wii development kit is still $2000 - hardly what I'd call cheap for just anyone to buy (though hugely cheaper than traditional kits and I think will be a big hit).
However Linux on a PS3 is I think something that really was thought out before, unlike the shaking controller deal that I agree looks like it was put together at the last moment.
They did have Linux on the PS2, it just was not very useful. However combined with the online service it makes a lot more sense for people to write thier own cool programs that can then be distributed over the service, making its use much more compelling. The online service had to have been under consideration ever since the XBox.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Maybe they're not having to much success with creating apps on the CELL. Hopefully they'll open it up for the genius's of the world to take a stab at coding in the cell environment. For the coders who want to experiment with the CELL, this could be an attractive offering. I"m sure a CELL desktop/server will cost a hell of a lot more than a $599.
Could be a good thing if they actually give access to all of the hardware. But I doubt it, my PSP is still on firmware 1.5.
MrJynxx
It'd be cheaper to buy a MacMini
Most Mac mini computers are not connected to a television, so good luck getting an audience for a 4-player same-screen game in the tradition of Tetris or Bomberman that's meant to be played on a platform typically connected to a 17" monitor.
You can't just recompile an application and have it work nicely on the Cell.
A single-threaded app such as a typical 2D game will run OK on the Cell processor's PPE alone provided that the compiler is configured for the number of pipes. Sure, the PPE lacks out-of-order, but out-of-order helps primarily when running i586 code on a PII/PIII, or PII/PIII code on a P4, or Pentium code on an Athlon, etc. If you know that all Cell processors have the same pipeline configuration, you can tell the compiler to reorder the instructions in advance.
I think as the gaming console is more and more resembling a normal PC (or more), I don't think putting linux on PS3 would be a problem. I tried running Linux on XBox and it works. Heck, it's working on a *Microsoft* product.
Have a little (more) faith with Sony.
But I *do* hope Sony cut down on the price..
- Kutaragi at the recent 2006 PlayStation Business Briefing
- Kutaragi at the earlier PS3 Conference Report
It would appear then that things aren't all that bleak. Maybe IBM had an influence this time around, as they would love to see the Cell succeed, and perhaps forced Sony to open up a bit.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Even if a large percentage of Mac mini computers are connected to televisions large enough for four players, that's a large percentage of what number? How many Mac mini computers have been sold or will be sold by November 2007? How many PS3 consoles will be sold by the same date?
So Sony is going to go after the free software audience with a $600 console?
It's a lot cheaper than emigration to a country that doesn't reserve the right to throw modchip users in jail.
The PS3, however, looks more capable in all ways than the PowerPC Mac-Minis -- which makes it capable enough to be someone's primary PC.
If they play the Linux card right, this is Sony's chance to take the Workstation market (the Cell chip is indeed awesome - I'm evaluating starting a company building a High-Def H264 video encoder with it) away from Sun and Linux - and put a pretty good dent in the PC / Apple market.
I'm optimistic they see this and will do it right this time.
Just buy a computer that comes with a nice high resolution lcd monitor, two extremely versatile input devices (keyboard and mouse), and is upgradeable with thousands of devices from Dell, eMachines, etc for $599... Trust me, linux will run on that too, and most software won't require a recompile (after the come up with a good compiler for the Cell processor for single thread designed programs) to work.
You don't need anything the $100 more version has if you're going to run Linux on it.
Unless the Linux environment is available only as part of the $600 bundle, meaning that owners of the $500 system are limited to playing only signed code.
Its true. Although I doubt they will give access to the blu ray drive, but that won't really be such a bad thing.
Will it run Perl?
So how does an indie developer develop and sell a first title to earn the money to buy a $2000 devkit for the developer's second title?
Will it run Windows? Ha I thought so, what a pos.
Of course you don;t get access to the libraries, that's what the really expensve dev kit fees pay for!
It doesn't matter as long as you have direct access to the graphics processors. Then people can craft thier own libraries. Yes it's unlikely that we'll see MGS5 - Joe Schmo edition, but we'll see a lot of cool smaller games I think if people are allowed to develop and share them online.
There are plenty of free engines people could also port if they really need libraries.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
And let's get some mirrors in here!
Don't put them there. Put them in front of that sign--the one that says 599.
I have no idea, but perhaps they are working on it... you'd think they would like to tie the PSP into the online market they are building. I assume that they probably will do something like that when the PS3 ships, until then there's no need (for them).
Perhaps Linux for the PS3 will eventually see a cross-compiler that supports the PSP.
You'd think these portable makers would wake up to the huge demand for programmability of these devices and give people an outlet for that...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I hope they haven't totally crippled possibility of separating the two GIGe ports intended for intranet.
One for lan, other for dmz, and this would make a killing router/firewall/vpn-concentrator.
The CPU should be fast enough to handle hundreds of vpn connections, if the promised performance holds true.
I know you can get 1gig gaming router from dlink for less than $100, but that thing doesn't:
* have dmz
* work as vpn server
* run linux
If sony would make the platform open enough, this thing would be WRT54G on steroids.
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
Plus it could make them some money in the long run.
No it may not be documented but if "amateurs" can emulate consoles from scratch and put homebrew software on hardware that tries to fight them then I don't think this will be too much of a problem.
What I wonder is not the access to libraries but to the hardware. Will the Cell really be fully available?
I think Sony is experimenting. They know MS owns the PC and they can do little about it but perhaps just maybe sometime in the future all of a sudden another OS they do not have to develop themselves might just make inroads.
If it fails, then they lost nothing. If it succeeds. Well who knows what might happen.
If PS3 sells like the PS2 AND it does become a viable linux computer then that would give MS the serious jitters. You can't tell me Sony wouldn't like that.
Remember MS siding with Nintendo against Sony? Might be because they too think Sony has designs other then on having the best selling console.
We will just have to see what really happens but for now lets keep an open mind. Whatever sony is trying it is way more then the other console companies have done to allow amateurs to develop for their machines.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Cause you would be running a IBM/Linux desktop NOT the everpresent Wintel setup. I think Sony would like it because MicroSoft would totally not like it.
It is offcourse unlikely that this will have any effect but at least something is being tried.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
All I'm interested in is who is supporting homebrew NOW!
For handhelds, that would be GamePark Holdings. Unfortunately, if you want to develop and sell games for GP2X, you run into the problem that the GP2X doesn't have enough user base to support the economies of scale of a typical game. PDAs don't count anymore because Microsoft and other PDA OS vendors have gone down the lockout chip route, with network operators having the ability to shut off execution of unsigned apps on their subsidized smartphones, and with little or no "open market" for unsubsidized smartphones or standalone PDAs in North America.
For consoles, that would be Apple. Apple learned from the failed Pippin and made a console that can run programs that run on its other Macintosh computers. This console has about the same footprint as a GameCube, costs roughly 500 to 600 USD, and is called the Mac mini.
Sony themseves has said they want this to be able to build user provided content.
That's "user provided content", not "user provided programs". People writing about the entertainment industry tend to use the term "content" to refer to any work other than a computer program. Such a statement could just refer to mods (maps, models, and missions) for existing licensed games, right?
Since content includes games, and they are trying to build an online store with microgames simialr to XBOx Live, we can be pretty sure of what the intent is.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The kernel source may have open; OP is referring to the fact that the whole PS2 Linux setup basically ran on an emulation layer between the OS and the 'bare metal'. Using closed drivers.
He is absolutely right to say that it was crippled and didn't allow access to the hardware.
my password really is 'stinkypants'
Phil Harrison: .. If you're a complete music fan and video fan, and you want to have huge amounts of digital content, then you can upgrade to whatever size of drive you like. You can put any in that you like - it is a computer, after all.
= 16969
gamesindustry.biz: So that hard drive is a standard PC drive?
Phil Harrison: ATA, bog standard, yeah.
gamesindustry.biz: You're not going to be selling Sony drive upgrades?
Phil Harrison: We've got no plan to. We may offer something, but we have no plan to at the moment.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid
I started in computing with a ZX81 connected to a TV and moved on to a Sinclair Spectrum. Later bought an Atari ST set but had access to a nephew's Commodore Amiga. This was at a time when PC had crappy graphic and cost an arm and a leg. Now on to my third PC in 10 years which is good enough for everything but play the games at their best. (A good graphic cost more than a PS3). A PS3 with Linux installed and off the shelf USB keyboard and mouse will be a viable alternative to a Windows PC.
Yes, but on the internet we use the American English rules
Perhaps you may be correct on sites in the .us domain, but on www.bbc.co.uk they use the Queen's English, and they like it. Tendencies on Slashdot also tend toward "hackish" (jargon) constructions. Eric Raymond offers the example of the difference between "Type 'dd.'" and "Type 'dd.'" in a tutorial about the vi text editor.
so your point is mute.
You mean "moot".
Assuming you are a professional developer of some sort
I want to move out of my parents' basement and become a professional game developer. However, I lack the money to move out of Fort Wayne, Indiana, where the video game development industry is pretty much nonexistent.
the $2,000 for an official dev kit (including special hardware, support, and technical specifications) probably costs less than that piece of exercise equipment you wish you used more.
For cardio, I buy a $50 pair of running shoes a year. For strength training, I went to a gym for 2 years at $500 per year to get to the point where I could just go to a public park and use my body as the resistance for dips and chin-ups and the like.
People learn, animals learn, corporations do not learn.
What do you think composes corperations? Hint: It's not animals, but they learn.
The most obvious answer to me is that Sony got some good press from PS2 Linux (I know I was excited - I had a PS2 Linux mousepad for a couple years). Now they hope to suck in some users that Microsoft just plain won't touch. Seems obvious to me.
That's far fetched at best, given that they got really little press at all from the last round of PS2 stuff. You are ignoring something that can make them money - they aren't.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
A beowulf cluster of LimitedLinux(TM) PS3s.
on a P200 with no hardware accel. Quake, Duke 3d, Doom, etc. I'm sure the raw performance of the ps3 will be more than enough for hobbiests to code the kind of basic 3D they're able to. If you're skilled/professional enough to code ps3 hardware (no mean feat), then buy the sdk.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Main point:
Nintendo Wii has its virtual console where classic Nintendo, Sega, and Turbographix 16 games can be played. Xbox 360 has Xbox Live Arcade where users can download classic games and play them on their console. And what does PS3 have? Homebrew. With homebrew will come access to everything availabe on Nintendo's Virtual Console and the 360's Live Arcade and much more. Documentation is freely available on how to code for the Cell, and it bet it would take all of 6 months to have MAME, Snes9x, Reailty64, FCE Ultra (NES), Gens and everything else up and running on it. Underhanded? Sure is. But you know it will happen. And I for one will be thrilled about it.
Other points:
- I think Sony also realizes that by allowing homebrews on Linux, they'll due themselves a favor by stifling people trying to hack the system. Most system hacks come from hackers who want to run homebrew apps on a system (case and point, the 360 has been hacked, but since the hack can only be used to pirate games, they've not released the source code). So by giving people the ability to run homebrews outright, they'll immediately cut down on hacking and (i think) in dear themselves to a lot of users.
- PS2 linux failed because (as mentioned in these comments) was not a very serious nor technically mature effort by Sony. It was more of a proof of concept than anything. Sony barely talked about, and they certainly never bragged about it. They released it in 2002 and discontinued it 2003. With only 32MB of RAM (not to mention the processing power) there was limited use for the system as much more of a gimmick. Not many of you would've actively been running a poorly optimized version of linux on a slow pc with only 32MB of memory, so I mean, you can't blame Sony for not sticking with it long term as supporting it. The product had limited use. Like a car that could only drive 30 miles at a time.
- Fast forward to 2006, and Sony has publicly stated the PS3's intent to run Linux (and potentialy Mac OS X- . Sony & Apple have talked about teaming up, and with OS X on PS3 they could both stick it nemesis Microsoft). The PS3 has a total of 512MB of RAM, more than enough to run Linux properly, and in additional to that it has a processor that easily twice as fast (probably more) than the fastest PC desktop processor available. IBM already has a Linux kernel compiled and running on the Cell, so this notion of PS3+LINUX is -today- far more reality than fiction. With its built-in hdd (once, maybe still, rumored to ship -with- linux preinstalled) the PS3 could be a fully functional, very useful computer.
- When you look at it (or at least when I do) for $500-$600 you would have seriously powerful PC, Console, and Blu-Ray disc player. I realize that's more than some people want, but it's everything I'd like to see in the system.
PS3 is a very expensive console. $599 or $699. That's a lot of money for a console. Now, what Sony should do is to provide a lot of functionlaity for that money. What could they do?
a) Make it a good DVD/Blu-Ray player. Yes, PS2 and Xbox can play back DVD's. But they are not very good at it. Make the PS3 actually a good DVD-player, and consumers have no reason to buy a separate DVD-player.
b) Make it a computer. People still need computers. And while Cell might not be ideal for general-purpose computing, it should still be fast enough. So put Linux in the PS3, make it easy for the consumer to use it. They could use it for email, surfing, word-processing and the like. So the consumer has no need to buy a separate computer that costs several hundred dollars. And, this way Sony can attack Microsoft on it's home-turf. If the PS3-Computer" fails, no big deal. If it succeeds, it hurts MS where it counts (Widnows and Office. Less money to put to their console-business).
If sony does thosetwo things, they could say (truthfully) that Why buy a console that costs 499 dollars, and then buy a computer that costs 699 dollars and DVD-player that costs 109 sollars, when you could jsut buy a PS3 for 699 dollars and be done with it?
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It's starting to look like the PS3's primary goal is to ship Blu-Ray players. They're using the gaming console simply as a means to that end.
Licensing the Next Big Media Format(tm) could provide at least as much revenue as the entire PS3 gaming market would. Trying to establish Blu-Ray as the standard would be a goal worthy enough for Sony to break some former believes in order to get the Blu-Ray format in homes.
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