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Samsung Working On Fuel-Cell Powered Cell Phones
An anonymous reader writes "BusinessWeek reports that Samsung plans to build prototype phones that will be powered by Direct Methanol Fuel Cells." From the article: "The deal also marks a huge vote of confidence in a little-known company. MTI Micro, which had sales of $8 million in 2005, is one of a handful of outfits seeking to bring hydrogen-based fuel-cell technology into more common use. Its Mobion fuel cells have already appeared in industrial handhelds from companies like Intermec, a unit of Unova, and have drawn the attention of military contractors developing devices that soldiers will use in the field. Under the deal, which lasts through the end of the second quarter of 2007, the two companies will jointly research the use of methanol-based fuel-cell technologies for use in cell phones. Any patents that come as the result of the research will be assigned to MTI."
I'm also the fan of saving energy! Thumbs up for technologies like this! :)
Big booty
Now I can keep talking while getting a tan, and not worry about the batteries running out. Goodbye geekdom on a cellphone, hello tanning while on a cell phone. I'll be doing the world good too - I'll be saving energy!
And when the methanol makes you go blind, you won't even have to wear sunglasses!
I only hope this goes on to lots of other things using fuel cells. I would hate for the fuel cell-powered cell phone to become the latest solar-powered calculator.
Similar to the upcoming US election results
If your using your tech devices whilst in a sunny tanning situation, wouldn't it make more sense to have a solar charging unit handy and run all day without even needing a refill?
Let the alcohol refresh you without wasting it on your laptop.
liqbase
A Cell fueled Cell phone using the Cell processor.
That would be cool!
how long until
It worked for Nintendo for 15 years.
Aside from the typical 'good luck trying to get your methanol powered mobile or laptop into a plane', how long have been fuel cells in development?
They're the Duke Nukem Forever of the batteries!
--
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This is one reason why I like Lithium batteries which we have now in phones now. I really dislike the thought of having to continously buy new batteries and actually make the effort to go get them... when my phone runs out I can just lean over and plug it in; requiring a crazily small amount of effort. Also, I don't pay for my electric usage so I guess it's more cost effective for me too
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
Maybe, but times change.
Oh no... it's the future.
I have a solar charger for my mobile phone and it works just fine. I am cheap and like the thought of free energy to power the black hole of money that is my phone. I applaud the expansion of alternative energy technology into our daily lives, but wonder if this is the best application for fuel cells...
Now you can get brain cancer and methanol poisoning at the same time! :)
Seriously, how do you recharge these things, with a can of pressurized methanol? Talk about a fire hazard! Or maybe the fuel cell is disposable and you just slap in a new one? That's not environmentally friendly. Maybe you send them back to the factory and they can refill them? Will there be a grey market in refills such as with Ink Jet/Laser Toner Cartridges? Will those refills be safe? Can you carry them on an airplane since flammable items like this are not allowed today? What do they do with the excess heat from the fuel cell operation? There are a LOT of questions to be answered both from the technology side and the business logistics side before you are going to see these in production for consumers. Meanwhile traditional battery technology is not standing still, we get more power density than ever now For the military which does not have to follow the same precautions it could be a good thing for field use, but I don't see them being comsumer devices ever.
"everytime they lose power"
I believe what they might be going for is having it last as long as a continually recharged battery.
But if your right, don't you think they would develop it more? or maybe thats why it was prefaced with
"ts Mobion fuel cells have already appeared in industrial handhelds from companies like Intermec, a unit of Unova, and have drawn the attention of military contractors developing devices that soldiers will use in the field."
People might just do that if the fuel cells have a lifespan of a year.
Right.
Actually, this is the gillette principle.
Pure repeat sales, they would love to get us to do this, but your absolutely right.
I would use a fuel cell if:
1) I can purchase a 20 gallon barrel for pence and fill up at home.
2) each refill will last much longer than current tech.
liqbase
In what way can these ever be "saving energy"?
The fule Cell has to be manufactured, this has to have an energy cost associated with it, hence you are still using energy, your phone is still using energy, the same amount too.
Are fuel cells more efficent than power plants? With the cost of manufacture and distribution added in?
Now I may be wrong about this, however it is mine understanding that hydrogen used for cells and so forth is produced by applying an electrical charge to water, this causes the hydrogen and oxygen to divide and the gas is gathered and used in cells. At the moment this is done with wind powered or solar generators but when this comes a mass used device the "clean" and "conservative" methods will be tossed out the window(solar and wind can't possibly provide enough power) and replaced by regular power plants, so all in all you really will not have any power conservation.
What are the safety issues of carrying around a hydrogen/methanol cartridge in a warm pocket, leaving it in a hot car, and other abuses suffered by our current phones? Additionally, as water is usually a waste product of fuel cells, are we all going to have to explain away the spreading damp patches on our trousers more than usual?
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I'm getting kind of tired of my old coal powered cell phone.
..would be dandy. Just imagine, in the off-licence:
"No darling, it's not for me, it's for my 'phone!"
*--BigMan--- Time flies like an arrow.. but personally I prefer a nice glass of wine!
...phone nuts will now be able to talk incessantly about their mother's bout of constipation, their lack of a love life, how crappy their company is, and so on, extending the suffering I must endure on the train. And I hear JetBlue is thinking of addign wireless access to their planes, so you could use them in flight. Brilliant!
I'll just nip off and shoot meself...
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
One word: Enema
So people are going to give up being able to recharge their cell phone batteries for free for the ultra-convienence of having to go to the store to buy new fuel cells for their phones
Yeah, I too kinda wonder about the logic behind such a product.
I also have to wonder just how much more eco-friendly this would prove over the life of a phone - For a ballpark calculation, people replace their phones every two years and current phones need charging every two to three days. If this cell lasts twice as long that means it will eat between 120 and 180 cells over the life of the phone. Does one Li-ion battery really cause that much damage to the environment that 180 PEMs+tank represents an improvement???
For bigger things, like laptops, I can see the use of fuel cells as an auxilliary power source (though not replacing batteries outright). But for a cell phone, they last three days, not three hours, per charge. Even then, though, I have to wonder just how popular they would prove themselves.
Mostly, I see fuel cells as useful in places where we already use fluids (ie, gasoline) as a source of power, such as cars and generators. I also see a possible secondary market in places we currently use mostly non-rechargeable batteries, such as flashlights and radios. But targetting cell-phones, laptops, or any other device that already uses rechargeables seems like a sure way to make sure fuel cells never become popular.
I'm also the fan of saving energy! Thumbs up for technologies like this! :)
Pointless really; they already sell solar rechargers, which may be a hassle to carry, but with the extended talk time of most phones now, you pretty much only have to charge them once a day.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
in the toxicity stakes.
That is, the petrol (gasoline, for the North Americans) is, to a first approximation, just as toxic as methanol. When was the last time you heard of someone suffering from petrol poisoning, in any non-trivial (meaning, fixed with 5 minutes of fresh air) manner?
The reason methanol seems more dangerous is that if you contaminate beverages with it, you don't notice it's there until you've consumes a lot. Pure methanol doesn't have that problem. (On the downside, it is absorbed through the skin, so that's not good. Still, when was the last time you got petrol on your hands, in other than a trivial fashion?).
In summary, yes, it's unpleasant. But, in the opinion of this chemist, no more unpleasant that a large number of other substances that we manage to handle quite safely. Just don't drink it.
On battery density - forget it. Battery energy density is on a negative exponential decay - there's just a limit to how much energy you can have in there, and we're at something like 85% of that, IIRC. Power density is improving, but it's better life that you really want, which is energy density. Everyone I know that does reaserch into batteries (that's about 30 people over 7 labs) basically thinks that batteries are more or less as good as they get - there's maybe another 5-10% improvement in energy density, but that's about it.
Hey, they did make a hydrogen car by hooking the business end of a hydrogen tank hose directly into the carbureator of an unmodified diesel sedan... No fabricating at all, they just kinda stuck the hose in there till it worked. Er, and exploded in a giant fireball...
Play the devil's advocate, far and away from our modern mentality of technological post-human embracement: Fuel cells will make power virtually incorruptable. A [nearly]living, breathing unit of self-sustaining power! Unharnassed by man and only regulated by circuitry. A terryfing revelation, if spun out of our reach. As it stands at least we have the option of "pulling" the proverbial plug on technology should it advanced beyond us. Should we take this step? [I realize how paranoid this sounds, and do not endorse any radically way of living, just food for thought!]
I was looking forward to hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (10+ years from now), but didn't think much of it until I read about Honda's new hydrogen fuel cell. It puts out 100KW of power!
It's incredible to me that a fuel cell that is smaller than a common household gas generator puts out 20 times as much power.
You could power your entire neighborhood with one of these in a power outage.
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All right, a mentholated cell phone.. .Now my phone and my Newports have the same minty taste!!!
"But this one goes to 11!"
Smells funny in here. Are you making french fries or calling your Mom?
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
Both Toyota and Honda have made fully-functional fuel cell cars. They said 5 years ago they might have a limited production model in 10 years.
y /fuelcell_hybrid.html
http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technolog
I wouldn't be shocked if others have made similiar prototypes.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Just as an aside, methanol is what model airplanes use for fuel, and it is also used in the process of turning waste vegetable oil into biodiesel. As for safety, how hard can it be to come up with a safe way to transfer 6 oz of liquid from one container to another?
When buying methanol, like most things, the more you buy the cheaper it is. Keeping a 5 gallon container around and then filling your phone or a small syringe from that doesn't seem too difficult a proposition.
"It's because they're stupid, that's why. That's why everybody does everything." -Homer Simpson
Tsk, tsk -- apparently contrary opinions aren't allowed? Good thought about the cave though, as long as it has Internet access. I can just imagine calling Comcast and ordering service...
I'm sick of people bitching about things other people do that cause no harm to others whatsoever. If somebody talking on a cell phone bothers you more than somebody talking to the person across the isle from you on a train (which is damned noisy to begin with, so it's not like they're making it much worse), you have serious issues.
Then why do you read Slashdot? Actually I'm sick of other people bitching about my bitching. Free country, what? Anywho, anybody talking loudly on the train annoys me, as much as anyone with their iPod cranked so high I can hear stuff leaking from their earbuds, and people with offensive body odor. Perhaps it's not doing me physical harm, but since I am pretty much trapped, being I have a long commute on crowded trains, is it it too much to ask for people to be courteous, keep the conversation short and quiet, and give others a chance at some peace? I guess so, according to your view. You are no doubt not on Emily Post's Christmas card list.
And I say that as somebody that doesn't yak on his cell phone in public.
Well, perhaps you have a higher tolerance for this kind of crap than I do, and you are cetainly entitled to your opinion, but my suggestion is that society is hard enough to deal with given the amount of technology that is causing people to be alienated from one another, isolated in their own little worlds, without having to deal with overt rudeness. Personal conversations belong in personal space and don't have to be at the highest volumen possible if they are to be conducted in public.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
FTFA:
What Soucy and MTI CEO Peng Lim envision is a world where instead of recharging your phone's battery, you'll buy disposable fuel cells that last longer than the batteries that come with cell phones today and are more eco-friendly.
I'm not sure exactly how this is supposed to be more eco-friendly. A disposable cartridge system rather than a rechargeable battery? OK, maybe fuel cells can get a somewhat higher fuel efficiency than centralized generation and transmission to individual buildings. But then take into account the energy it takes to make the special enclosure for the cartridges, then to pump them full of methanol. This would need to happen for each cartridge. Plus, carbon-based fuels get more expensive and the power companies start relying more on wind/solar technologies, this tech will still need to use 100% carbon fuel to run at all. Just 'cause it says `fuel cell' does not mean it is `eco-friendly.'
Hate to "burst your bubble," but methane only comprises about 7 percent of human flatus. 21 percent is hydrogen, so you'd do better to power a normal hydrogen fuel cell with it. The big daddy gas in flatus is nitrogen, because we swallow so much air, and is mostly responsible for the "pull my finger" variety of farts. Cows produce much more methane than people do because of their more efficient digestive system, most of the nitrogen and oxygen gets absorbed, leaving mostly methane and hydrogen.
... what did you expect, something profound?
I want an ethanol-fueled PDA-cell-phone-combination with integral hip flask. Just unscrew the antenna and imbibe. Thash not a swizzle stick, Ofisher, thash my stylus!
The difference is that when you unplug them, one of them will be recharged, the other will require you to buy more stuff before you can use your laptop without plugging it in again.
With a fuel cell, you have to pay the fuel bill. With recharging from mains power, you have to pay the light bill at each location where you plan on recharging.
That is my question... what method of production do they intend to use to make all this fuelb and how do they intend to get it to the cell phone users?
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
Mark Twain
Ok, so if I read TFA correctly, what we're really talking about here amounts to a battery with a different type of chemistry and slightly more complex internal structure. I don't see a promise of easy home re-use and re-charge necessarily in the TFA. In fact, it indicates the potential market for "...as many as 80 million fuel-cell cartridges" by 2012.
Seems to me, that "fuel-cell cartridges" == batteries for all intents and purposes. Given that, the issues that will need to be raised are the same as those of batteries now. Will they be made in standard sizes, or will we have to pay a premium for the model used by each manufacturer? Compare this to ink-jet printer cartridges. They all pretty much do the same thing. We are forced to buy a unique one for each manufacturer and printer. They purposely make them different from each other even within the same vendor, so that small competitors cannot have the manufacturing capability to produce a full product line without huge startup costs. The result is that we pay a huge premium for the name brand or one of the few aftermarket versions, or go through hell refilling them.
Be careful here. Calling it a fuel cell doesn't mean you can carry around a bottle of ethyl alcohol and refill it yourself. It also doesn't mean you can go to the local convenience store and buy a stockpile of size AAA from one of a dozen competing companies. The business model that makes HP and Epson so much money now was copied from Gillette. Don't think for a second these guys won't try to go the same way.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
I've heard of exploding batteries in mobile devices. I really hate to think about what the result will be if we end up with exploding fuel cells as well some day.
Of course I also wonder if your cell phone will be able to double as your lighter as well now.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
This is rediculous. Thin film batteries are just around the corner, with a solid state electrolyte, they retain no memory, charge extremely fast, are cheap, high capacity, cannot break and leak chemicals, gas, or boil, and are paper thin to boot.
A fuel-cell powered cell phone would be the perfect example of "because we can" technology. Completely pointless, with little or no practicality, doesn't really advance anything, but it's cool as hell.
... what did you expect, something profound?
I think his point was that it's a pain in the rear to carry around extra "fuel" or to make a trip to buy some, when electrical outlets are pretty ubiquitous.
It's also worth noting that these fuel cells had better standardize on their "fuel" sooner than later, cuz I don't want to have to try to pick out the right one from a rack of 70 different types. In that respect, I fear that they'll very closely resemble batteries. Only instead of AA, AAA, C, D, I'll have to pick from words that look like they came from the ingredient list of a processed food packet.
Remember, kids - if you can't pronounce it, don't eat it.
A common misunderstanding of the "hydrogen economy". In the idealized hydrogen economy, hydrogen is produced through thermolysis -- directly from heat, thus bypassing the (inefficient) electricity generation stage altogether. Also, since a fuel cell powered vehicle really is electric, it can readily be enabled to do power regeneration. Engines become lighter, cheaper, more efficient, and are freed from the necessity of running off of liquid hydrocarbon chains into something that can be more easily produced.
Other energy sources in a hydrogen economy include using peak solar power (you have extra energy in bright, sunny days), extra hydroelectric power in rainy times, and direct bacterial generation of hydrogen. In the former two cases, you're not starting with heat energy, so you're not losing energy to carnot cycle losses before you get the electricity for electrolysis (with best available tech, about 85% efficient).
"You see, Government is a system that is based on weapons." -- Timster
Have you looked at the design of a motorcycle recently?
Fuel tank wedged between your legs, 20 litres of highly explosive fuel less than an inch from your bollocks.
Directly beneath said 20 litre tank of highly explosive fuel we have the engine, on a modern 600cc sportsbike we're talking about somewhere around 100bhp or around 75kW and that's at the crank. Say the engine is a not unreasonable 25% efficient, the "waste heat" output of the engine is 225kW. Yeah that's clever... placing a 225kW heater directly under the fuel tank. Way to go.
Actually the biggest problem is t-boning a muppet who hasn't seen you, that is the biggest risk of riding a bike and most of the heat's piped down the exhaust. It's amazing how risk averse some people are, they have no idea what the biggest risks are.
Deleted
That's not how most people conceive of fuel cells in application. The concept is that your phone has a reservoir of fuel, and you refill this reservoir from a larger tank. If your phone holds 16 ml of fuel (2cm x 4cm x 2cm), a two-gallon tank would provide 473 charges.
In an ideal situation (I don't know about this company's design), you never toss your fuel cell -- you just refill it. With a pressurized fuel canister, it'd be just as easy as plugging in a cell phone, but take a lot less time.
"You see, Government is a system that is based on weapons." -- Timster
Will the hydrogen station have a tiny little methanol pump, so I can fill my cell phone? What kind of exhaust pipe will the phone have? Will we start seeing 17-year-olds holding cell phones with wacky paint jobs, spoilers, and coffee-can mufflers?
You have raised an EXCELLENT point!
TFA states that MTI has arrangements with Gillette (who owns Duracell), which "is helping MTI Micro create a retail and distribution business for a market in disposable fuel cells." They also claim the market could demand up to 80 million units annually.
I've heard plenty about fuel cell cartridges while working in the power electronics research industry, but have yet to see any prototypes until your post inspired me to search. DMFCC has a photo on their home page of their prototype fuel cell cartridges, and judging from the style of container they could be fairly interchangeable.
In the end consumers will be at the mercy of decisions made by these large corporations, so one can only hope that standards will fall into place before too long.
"Don't hate the media, become the media." -Jello Biafra
At home you are already paying an electric bill. Why would you want to spend MORE money to power your phone?
Are you sure it would in fact be more money once fuel cell technology matures?
At work you aren't even paying the electric bill.
No, but your employer is, and if your work cell phone is fuel cell powered, and fuel cell turns out to be cheaper or lower-maintenance than buying a battery and charging it from a DC adapter, then guess what your employer will go for.
So the article states another among a long list of companies is working on a Fuel-Cell Powered device. Nothing has been made yet, not even a prototype. This is news?
This just in...
I'm working on a fuel cell device in my garage.
Ninjas don't carry tic tacs
Unless I'm missing something, Mythbusters don't do a 'trick my ride' type of thing. You'd have to encompass it into an urban legend.
"There's a myth that you can power your automobile with a fuel cell powered phone... what do you think Jamie, is it gonna happen?"
Life has many choices. Eternity has two. What's yours?
Thanks for the info, you're a real fart smeller.
Why yes, I *AM* new here. Why?
even so, can this provide wnough power to say... fuel all the cars in America?
The fact that it requires new infrastructure is a given, given the fact that we're talking about an entirely new method of powering vehicles.
"You see, Government is a system that is based on weapons." -- Timster
They leak water when they ring in your pocket.
Think about it.
"Is your cell phone in your shirt pocket or are you just drooling?"
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
So those stories about cell phones exploding at gas pumps may true after all!
Ethanol requires a much larger volume to reach toxicity. For "safety" reasons it could be flavored to taste terrible, perhaps like Mountain Dew.
recharge their cell phone batteries for free
Who's your power company? I'd give anything to get free (or at least cheap and unmetered!) electricity at home!
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Brazil already has these
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
Seriously, just build more nuke plants and use them for electrolyosis. They're safe, clean and very effiecent. If we can get fusion plants all the better, then we can get rid of a good deal of radioactive waste as well.
Actually, this Nobel laureate http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd -3527312757.html has proposed a "methanol economy" as being better than the hydrogen version.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
I've had shares in MTI for over a year now only to watch them wallow along in a display of volatile but slowly sinking value. A 30% boost is just what I like to see though it still doesn't cover what I forked out for them. If this bears fruit, then I might just have something to show from my investment.
...are fuel-cell powered AC outlets, which will cerainly result in cost-savings!
And do what with the waste? When you are trekking around places where it is inconvenient to recharge a battery, sure, a fuel cell might sound great. But you will never achieve 100% conversion of the fuel so you can't just dump out the waste.
Not only that, but the reaction generates... CO2. So now your phone will be contributing to global warming all the time.
I don't want to mod this down; can somebody translate?
I don't want to mod this down; can somebody translate?
Ummm...
Okay...
1) Free recharges vs pay-per-charge - Who wins?
2) 180 fuel cells vs one rechargeable battery - Which damages Mother Nature more?
3) "New" or "Improved" - Which do you actually want?
(Cheat-sheet: 1B; 2A?; 3B)
The result is that we pay a huge premium for the name brand or one of the few aftermarket versions, or go through hell refilling them.
anyone tried one of theese "continuous ink flow system" kits that feeds the printer directly from big bottles of ink?
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Instead of paying "Samsung Fuel Cell Co" $5 every time your phone runs low, get a hand-cranked mini generator to charge up your phone (and radio, and portable lights). One-time payment, then it runs off junk food forever. But there's no recurring revenue stream for Samsung, Duracell, Energizer, etc., hence you don't see these promoted.
=S
...show me the tools!
Laptop and cell phone battery life and performance do affect a lot of people, but what's given me the most grief is batteries for power tools. They're quirky, the companies discontinue them after a few years forcing you to buy new tools, and some tools are so power-hungry they run through 'em in minutes. Give a cordless circular saw an alcohol fuel cell and a 1/2 liter tank and contractors will snap them up by the thousands.
It would be useful for businesses. It means that you can maintain a box of walk-talkies, phones, handheld systems etc. without the constant need to be fiddling around with chargers or batteries. Just slap a cell in and away you go. It may not even be convenient to have charge devices in some environments, such as an oil rig, a forest, a factory floor or whatever. The military would appreciate it too simply because a fuel cell weighs a hell of a lot less than a battery and there aren't any chargers in the middle of nowhere.
It would also be possible to make these things in an eco friendly way but whether they do or not is another matter. Methanol can be made from renewable sources. Plastic can be made from renewable sources (and biodegrade). That means in theory (and discounting manufacture and transportation) these things can be non-polluting, unlike regular batteries.
So my thoughts are fuel cells are great for certain kinds of business and the military, but it would be madness to pitch these at consumers unless the price is practically nothing which I don't see happening.
What waste are you picturing? There is no waste from a fuel cell except for the exhaust products. The reaction involves a membrane that can only allow a proton without an electron to cross, thus forcing it to give up an electron (thus generating power) in order to react. The only "waste" is impurities in the fuel.
Yes, it generates CO2. But what the heck do you think happens when you plug in your cell phone or buy batteries?
"You see, Government is a system that is based on weapons." -- Timster