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Winning (and Losing) the First Wired War

Noah Shachtman writes "The Iraq war was launched on a theory: That, with the right networking gear, American armed forces could control a country with a fraction of the troops ordinarily needed. But that equipment never made it down to the front lines, David Axe (just back from his 6th trip to Iraq) and I note in this month's Popular Science. That's a problem, because the insurgents are using throwaway cellphones and anonymous e-mail accounts to stitch together a network of their own."

74 of 396 comments (clear)

  1. Not to be contrarian or anything by bunions · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... but I don't really think that was the theory the Iraq war was launched on.

    --
    there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
    1. Re:Not to be contrarian or anything by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 4, Funny
      Silly you. You probably thought it was about WMDs, bringing democracy to Iraq, securing Iraqi oil supplies or some such nonsense. Actually, the plans for Iraq started as a bet between a couple of generals.
      General #1: Y'know, I'll bet we could control a country with a fraction of the troops ordinarily needed if we just had the right networking gear.
      General #2: You're full of shit.
      General #1: Wanna bet?
      General #2: You're on!
      Now comes the more interesting question: What do you think the prize was? I'm thinking it was $1.

    2. Re:Not to be contrarian or anything by Alien+Being · · Score: 3, Funny

      Generals, please... there's no fighting in the war room.

    3. Re:Not to be contrarian or anything by wtansill · · Score: 3, Interesting
      It was the theory behind sendng a third as many troops as the generals knew were needed. Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, et al were as entranced by the "Revolution in Military Affairs" as McNamara was by his precious operations research.
      Indeed. Historically speaking, an army has required something on the order of one soldier for every 40 or so unarmed civilians in order to successfully occupy a country. See this link for details: http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking/story.asp? ID=2149

      We have about 150,000 troops in-theatre. According to the CIA factbook (link here: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ iz.html there are 26.7 million Iraqis. According to the math, we have one soldier for every 179 Iraqis, many of whom are still armed. This is a recipe for disaster.

      The quote "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy." has been variously attributed to Field Marshall Helmuth Carl Bernard von Moltke, Colin Powell, Murphy Military Laws, and Heinz Guderian (there may be others). D. Rumsfeld and his boys would do well to remember that, since they seem to be incapable of altering either their battle plans or their rhetoric.

      --
      The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
  2. wired war by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Cellphones are wired now?

    Jeez I must have an uber fancy one then...

  3. American Army now an ISP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From a technological, and business standpoint if you think about it.

    Essentially they are an ISP onto themselves, but then if the Iraqi's or Al Quaeda are the customers, using networks to cover a larger amount of ground with less troops is exactly the same as Verizon overselling their bandwidth. It's great because most of the time, terrorist cells only activate in short bursts, similar to grandma checking webmail... But if ever multiple cells decide to work all at the same time, I fear the marines may be in for a slashdotting!

  4. But they're still getting spam emails somehow.. by Channard · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wait, that's how terrorism is being funded. By Nigerian bankers. Damn you, Mr Obawutube - next time you send a missive asking for help getting six million dollars out of the country and offering half of it in return for someone's help, try adding a 'Are you a member of a Al Queda' Yes [ ] No [ ]' at the bottom.

  5. Signals Intelligence Gathering by CodeBuster · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I thought that signals intelligence gathering was one of the few types that the United States was really good at. I would be surprised if the NSA is not intercepting every single call on those disposable cell phones. The free e-mail accounts might take a bit more work to monitor, but surely the NSA could ask their buddies at AT&T and other backbone providers to intercept all of the emails coming out of Iraq and forward them on to the NSA for scanning into their Echelon system. If the insurgents are managing to elude our intelligence gathering efforts with disposable cell phones and hotmail then what does that say about our vaunted intelligence agencies? My tax dollars at work...or not as the case may be.

    1. Re:Signals Intelligence Gathering by MindStalker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apparently disposable cell phones are VERY common in developing nations. This means that there is a lot of people to track. If someone can switch phone numbers on a regular basis, tracking and snooping on them can be very hard if a majority of the traffic is legitimate.

    2. Re:Signals Intelligence Gathering by AuMatar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even if they do- they're speaking in arabic, it needs to be translated. Most likely, they're speaking in arabic in code. WHich could be very difficult to crack, if anything got lost in translation you may not be able to. You'd almost have to have an arabic speaking code breaker. There can't be too many of those. ANd most likely, the code cycles every few days, the enemy isn't stupid.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    3. Re:Signals Intelligence Gathering by Paladin144 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I would be surprised if the NSA is not intercepting every single call on those disposable cell phones. The free e-mail accounts might take a bit more work to monitor, but surely the NSA could ask their buddies at AT&T and other backbone providers to intercept all of the emails coming out of Iraq and forward them on to the NSA for scanning into their Echelon system. If the insurgents are managing to elude our intelligence gathering efforts with disposable cell phones and hotmail then what does that say about our vaunted intelligence agencies?

      I'd bet that those calls are being recorded, too. But so what? How do you know who is calling whom if the phone can't be traced? Perhaps they steal the cell from businessmen, use them for a few days and then abandon them. The NSA could track them back to their legitimate owner, but what about the insurgent that was actually using it?

      Without a relational database filled with tons of other personal information, just intercepting a phone call isn't going to do squat. You need voiceprint software, you need street-level info on the caller. Is he a real threat? Where does he hang out? Which faction is he involved with? Simply intercepting a call tells you none of this, usually. And how many Arabic speakers does the NSA employ? If it's anything like the CIA, not nearly enough.

      You know, maybe we wouldn't be losing this war so badly if the NSA concentrated on getting intel in Iraq instead of spying on Americans at home. It seems that they are doing a bang-up job of infringing on our rights, but they haven't actually achieved any meaningful successes when it comes to defeating terrorism.

      Kinda makes you wonder if fighting terrorism is the real goal....

    4. Re:Signals Intelligence Gathering by Tackhead · · Score: 2, Funny
      > So bomb the houses of everyone in Baghdad named 'Ackbar' at the time of the supposed meeting...you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs after all

      Yeah, Ackbar never caught on

    5. Re:Signals Intelligence Gathering by Malc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If what Colin Powel presented to the UN is representative, and signals intelligence is supposed to be one of America's better areas, then I'm very concerned.

    6. Re:Signals Intelligence Gathering by AuMatar · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yup, aware of all that. I have no doubt we could break their codes given time. Thats something we don't have here- we have people communicating ON THE BATTLEFIELD. Battles don't take days or weeks, vs guerillas they take minutes and hours. In order for the information to do any good, you'd need the code broken within minutes. Not hours, not days, minutes. Thats not doable. You might be able to grab a few pieces of info on the future dropped, so its worth the effort of breaking later, but for the most part the interception is worthless. And if the enemy is smart, the code cycles so frequently that we won't get enough of a sample size to break it.

      Now using the signal to triangulate to the enemy- that could be useful. And I'm sure they're working on that.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    7. Re:Signals Intelligence Gathering by MindStalker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      but can't we either control them 100% or if not, just keep them shutdown and force locatable landlines to be used instead?

      You do realize of course that the "war" with Iraq is over and we are currently in a joint peacekeeping operation with the Iraq government. To do any of this we would have to get the governments approval. Yea that would go over like a lead brick..

  6. This is not news by voice_of_all_reason · · Score: 2, Insightful
    1. Re:This is not news by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 2, Funny

      Remember, appropriate technology! For the jungle, you want a mesh network.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  7. On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by Aaron+England · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Terrorists would love to have the kind of Command, Control and Communications (C3) that the US military enjoys. The reason they don't is because doing so would give them a large footprint and make it easy for us to round up senior leadership (by simply following the comms back). So they are forced to engage in decentralized command and control and an ad hoc communications network.

    This again offers the advantage of making it hard to find senior leadership while it has the disadvantage of not allowing them to utilize their assets in a centralized manner which would be far more efficient and effective.

    1. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by Aaron+England · · Score: 2, Insightful
      How are you measuring their effectiveness? By the number of bodies they kill? That's the standard of a military force that wants to lose. You measure effectiveness by your ability to meet strategic goals.

      If their goal was to prevent free elections in Iraq, they have failed.
      If their goal was to defeat us through attrition and failed public support, they have failed.
      If their goal was to create a lawless Iraq through instability and/or civil war, they have failed.

      I simply don't see how you can say they have been successful thus far.

    2. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by Tx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I measure their effectiveness by the fact that the coalition forces are still there several years after they expected to be able to pull out, and by the fact that the insurgency is still going - the main aim of such a campaign is to be a continuous thorn in the side of their enemy, and to keep going, both of which the insurgents are doing very well.

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    3. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by bunions · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You could have said the same thing about Vietnam until close to the end. It's classic Maoist tactics and just saying "We're still there" really doesn't mean much. Mao saw that Western democracies just don't have the patience for 12 years of war over things that don't directly concern them. And he's right.

      The US simply refuses to learn from history that the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend, much as the friend of your enemy is not necessarily your enemy. Syngman Rhee, Dihn Diem, Noriega, now here. It's the broken goddamn record of foreign policy.

      --
      there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
    4. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by Aaron+England · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Although there are many similarities between Iraq and Vietnam, they are dissimilar in this one important regard: we are making progress and the enemy is not. I think our success can only be measured by our ability to give Iraq the ability to defend themselves and our ability to make Iraq free. To that end, Iraq has had free elections, we've incorporated the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites into the government and we training of their military is ongoing.

      What progress can insurgents really say they have made since the start of the war?

    5. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by bunions · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I don't want to press the iraq-vietnam analogy very far at all, because I think they're dissimilar in many, many aspects.

      I think our success can only be measured by our ability to give Iraq the ability to defend themselves and our ability to make Iraq free. To that end, Iraq has had free elections, we've incorporated the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites into the government and we training of their military is ongoing.

      My impression of the popularly elected government is that it is immensely fragile and that, for the majority of Iraqis, is essentially switching one strong Saddam for many small ones. Oh, and also their power and water don't work and they're shelled every now and then. I don't imagine that the Iraqi government will survive long in the power vaccuum when the US leaves. I hope I'm wrong, and I very well could be. It's hard to judge what things are actually like there there's so much noise.

      What progress can insurgents really say they have made since the start of the war?

      That they've been an immensely destabilizing influence? Which is really their goal. They obviously can't fight the US toe-to-toe, hence the adoption of the Maoist tactics.

      --
      there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
    6. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by Aaron+England · · Score: 2, Informative
      My impression of the popularly elected government is that it is immensely fragile and that, for the majority of Iraqis, is essentially switching one strong Saddam for many small ones. Oh, and also their power and water don't work and they're shelled every now and then. I don't imagine that the Iraqi government will survive long in the power vaccuum when the US leaves. I hope I'm wrong, and I very well could be. It's hard to judge what things are actually like there there's so much noise.

      They are immensely fragile, and so I think it wouldn't be appropriate to leave right now; we must beef them up first. I don't think it is accurate to say that we have replaced one strong Saddam for many small ones. They genuinely have a democracy and they have good representation amongst the different political/racial lines. I agree that the Iraqi government wouldn't last long now, but I believe everyday we are getting them closer to that point where they can stand on their own.

      That they've been an immensely destabilizing influence? Which is really their goal. They obviously can't fight the US toe-to-toe, hence the adoption of the Maoist tactics.

      But how effective has their destablilizing influence been? They wanted to scare the Iraqis into not voting, they have failed. They wanted to bring the country into a civil war with the Golden Mosque bombings and related attacks, they have failed. They are definitely a pain in our side, but it seems like they are a tolerable pain in our side because we continue to make progress in spite of their prescence.

    7. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by Aaron+England · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Well the insurgency is facing three reasons why they won't win.

      A commander-in-chief who is committed to this conflict.
      Our training of the Iraqi National Army so they can stand up to the insurgents when we leave.
      The fact that most of the insurgents are driven to fight by our very prescence. When we leave, much of the motivation for the majority of terrorist groups in Iraq leaves with us.

    8. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by Frostalicious · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think your characterization of the situation is rather short sighted and optimistic. The ultimate goal of Islamic fundamentalism is to dismantle secular institutions and set up an Islamic state. The main thing preventing this currently is US influence in the region. Iraq is only a piece of this.

      The bad guys suffered significant military defeats in Afghanistan and Iraq. This is obvious, and I think what you are alluding to. However I think we must realize that Bin Laden et al have no real expectation of winning militarily. This never was a military war for them. This is an economic war. I think the grand strategy for them is to keep the US engaged in a war which they are not financially able to maintain indefinitely, and I believe they are doing it. Iraq is costing hundreds of billions. The US dollar is weakening significantly. Foreign nations are starting to move away from the US dollar. Iran is setting up their own oil bourse.

      The terrorists just want to keep the US engaged. They don't care where. The US has more resources available to them than anyone, but the manner in which they conduct war is orders of magnitude more expensive than the terrorists, and thus less sustainable.

      I think Bin Laden was happy when the US invaded Iraq. This development shifted the financial costs of the war even further in his favor. Thus, while the US has achieved many military goals, his financial strategy is coming to fruition.

    9. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by EvanED · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A commander-in-chief who is committed to this conflict

      But who only has another 2 1/2 years to win, something that is far from certain will happen, and has a growing unrest with his policies at home.

      Our training of the Iraqi National Army so they can stand up to the insurgents when we leave.

      Which has been working *so* well so far

      The fact that most of the insurgents are driven to fight by our very prescence. When we leave, much of the motivation for the majority of terrorist groups in Iraq leaves with us.

      Either you're wrong, or the insurgents are pretty stupid. Because if they agreed with you, then their best course of action would be to stop fighting for a few weeks. So either they don't agree that they just want us out of Iraq, or they are too obtuse to recognize the shortest path to their goal. Which do you think it is?

    10. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by Aaron+England · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I think your characterization of the situation is rather short sighted and optimistic. The ultimate goal of Islamic fundamentalism is to dismantle secular institutions and set up an Islamic state. The main thing preventing this currently is US influence in the region. Iraq is only a piece of this.

      It's hard to group terrorists together and say they all want an Islamic state. I'm not sure Bin Laden's desired end state is another Iran.

      However I think we must realize that Bin Laden et al have no real expectation of winning militarily. This never was a military war for them. This is an economic war. I think the grand strategy for them is to keep the US engaged in a war which they are not financially able to maintain indefinitely, and I believe they are doing it. Iraq is costing hundreds of billions. The US dollar is weakening significantly. Foreign nations are starting to move away from the US dollar. Iran is setting up their own oil bourse.

      That's a good point. In that sense I think you could argue Bin Laden is making progress towards his strategic goal. But in the context of this thread, I don't think you could say insurgents in Iraq are winning. Also I think you have to ask yourself, does Bin Laden's finnancial plan solve? Will it bring the US to its knees? I think he underestimates our strength. His logistical and financial support to the insurgency is definitely a pain but one that I think we can overcome.

      The terrorists just want to keep the US engaged. They don't care where. The US has more resources available to them than anyone, but the manner in which they conduct war is orders of magnitude more expensive than the terrorists, and thus less sustainable. I think Bin Laden was happy when the US invaded Iraq. This development shifted the financial costs of the war even further in his favor. Thus, while the US has achieved many military goals, his financial strategy is coming to fruition.

      I agree with you here. Iraq was really the wrong war. But now that we are in it, leaving prematurely would give such a huge information operations campaign victory to the insurgents. Additionally I fear leaving Iraq in its weakened state would allow it to become a puppet for insurgents (eg. Taliban's relationship with Al Qaeda) and it will inevitably force us to return there if we don't finish the job this time.

    11. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by myth_of_sisyphus · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "googlenews Iraqi Army you'll see a slew of reports indicating progress."

      I recently saw the Iraqi "army" on CNN take off their uniforms in protest over getting assigned to a place other than their hometowns. As far as I know, they have 1 battalion ready, when this administration said they would have 100 by now. Many of the soldiers and policemen are deserting once they are issued weapons. (Wonder where their next stop is?)

      Iraqis are getting sick and tired of "democracy" and are probably ready for another tyrant or a civil war if promised running water and electricity. Many Middle-Eastern people I know say this.

      How much longer is the public going to put up with news of another soldier killed by an IED? One year? Two? Five? How many of our fine soldiers will get killed before the public says 'enough'? 3000? 5000? 10000?

      Many journalists and opinionistas are saying this whole war has been a fiasco, been run poorly, and probably headed for civil war. I don't know where your optimism comes from, probably Fox News.

    12. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by quax · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They wanted to bring the country into a civil war with the Golden Mosque bombings and related attacks, they have failed.

      What news sources are you consuming? The amount of violence in Iraq certainly qualifies as low intensity civil war by any conventional measure. And the situation has been continuously deteriorating. Denying this will just set us up for a colossal failure. Even Alawi who has been the US most favorite Iraqi politician (not counting Chalabi) has said as much. Now even Basra is starting to come unglued. A trend that started last year when militias infiltrated the police force is now playing out. A development that was entirely predictable when the US failed to unarm and disband the Shia militias while dissolving the old Iraqi army (probably the worst blunder of the whole occupation saga - and there have been so many!).

      The Basra security situation is very bad news.

      Sorry my friend, but I will certainly take the former Iraqi PM's assement over yours. You may want to check out some broader spectrum of news sites to protect yourself from falling for spin.

    13. Re:On the terrorists ad hoc C3 by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think our success can only be measured by our ability to give Iraq the ability to defend themselves and our ability to make Iraq free.

      Then your success so far is exactly zero. Iraq is a more free today, but most of that is on paper and not in real, daily life. Their ability to defend themselves is, well I'd guess there aren't many countries in the world that could not successfully invade Iraq if they had only their own army to defend themselves.

      To that end, Iraq has had free elections, we've incorporated the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites into the government and we training of their military is ongoing.

      Much of the training is to rebuild something they had 5 years ago. Like a police force. It's not progress, it's a desperate attempt to return to normality.

      The free elections, yes. But the "incorporation" isn't going very well, is it? Saddam had kept the nationalities more or less seperated and used them against each other, but at least it was a stable relationship without much bloodshed. Not exactly what we have today, is it?

      What progress can insurgents really say they have made since the start of the war?

      Wrong scale. At the start of the war, there were no insurgents, so you can't measure their progress from there. You have to measure from the end of the war, when the insurgents first appeared.

      And they've made a lot of progress since then. Currently, for example, Basra is falling into their hands, the Brits already admit they don't control the city any longer. And let's not even talk about Baghdad...

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  8. I'm kinda glad... by RyanFenton · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not that America isn't a superb nation (ignoring the current administration), but I get a bad taste in my mouth about the idea of any nation having the capacity to control another *on the cheap* over the long term on a military basis.

    Still, this can be seen as more of a failed experiment than a conclusive result. When the tools are available, and less humanity necissary for the military control of a population... well, tyranny can then become something greater than a Thomas Paine pamphlet can help fight anymore.

    The automated undermining of freedoms is a scary concept.

    Ryan Fenton

  9. there's a clear solution by yagu · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you've been reading the recent slashdot articles, and seen the decisive actions governments are considering, it's only a matter of time before these terrorists are reined in. All they need to do is quickly enact legislation that, among other things:

    • requires all throwaway cellphones to be registered with the government
    • outlaw anonymous e-mail accounts
    • (and, from recent article) require all terrorists to register and provide any and all encryption keys
    • (and, also from recent article) prohibit terrorists from using and having access to any network tools.

    Sheeesh, how simple can this be?

  10. im sick of the liberal media harping on mistakes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    what about all the things that are going right in iraq?

    --your pal, sean hannity

  11. What do you mean by "control" by killjoe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You can't control a country with troops. There are three basic components to controlling masses of people. These are religion, Television/Media, and placation.

    If you can get people converted to your brand of god it's easy to control them, the more people who believe in your god the more control you have. The vast majority of the worlds population believes in some god or another.

    You need to be able to constant bombard the populace with your message and you need to be able to change this message subtly and continuously. In oder to do that you need television. The vast majority of the population view television every night after work. For the vast majority of people their entire waking hours are spend either at work or in front of the TV. As a bonus television makes your eyes focus on a very narrow depth of field which is surprising similar to a hypnotic state. Television is successful mostly because it puts people in a mildly hypnotic state during which they are prone to suggestions. Why do you think people spend a dollar for colored, sugared water?

    Finally you need to fill their bellies to kill their ambition (apologies to Lao Tzu). You need to keep them fed and comfortable so that they don't take action against you. You will need to increase wealth till everybody can go to church and afford a TV.

    Voila, you are now controlling a country and you don't need a 150,000 soldiers. The largest economy in the world, the richest country in the world with a population of over 300 million people and taking up vast almost unthinkable amount of space is controlled by a surprisingly few people. Much less then 100,000. Hell much less then 50,000.

    Look at it another way. A very small cabal of neocons got their boy electected, got themselves into positions of power and took over a country and all it's natural resources with the full consent of the US population. These people (less then a 100 really) "controlled" the US population into waging a war for their beneift/profit/ideology/god.

    --
    evil is as evil does
    1. Re:What do you mean by "control" by cnettel · · Score: 3, Funny
      As a bonus television makes your eyes focus on a very narrow depth of field which is surprising similar to a hypnotic state. Television is successful mostly because it puts people in a mildly hypnotic state during which they are prone to suggestions.
      *staring at the screen* *feeling a bit dizzy* You're absolutely right!
    2. Re:What do you mean by "control" by vux984 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why do you think people spend a dollar for colored, sugared water?

      I think the real question is why do you think people spend 2 dollars for plain water?

      Then factor in that they can get it with sugar and colour for half the price...

      Nevermind with alcohol...

    3. Re:What do you mean by "control" by johnfatz · · Score: 2, Informative
      Finally you need to fill their bellies to kill their ambition (apologies to Lao Tzu). You need to keep them fed and comfortable so that they don't take action against you.

      Gotta disagree with you here. Looking at my own country's history (Ireland), during the times when Ireland was poor and short of food it worked better for Britain. When a population is short on food and basic supplies, they are less likely to worry about ideological issues such as government and are more concerned about surviving. A famous Irish politition (Parnell) recognised this and instead of concentrating on getting home rule for Ireland he first worked on getting the right for Irish people to buy their land. When this right was achieved, the movement for home rule exploded. This movement grew to create a situation where Ireland was a free state approx. 50 years later.

      So in suming up - keep 'em poor and they're to busy struggling to bother you!

  12. War Stories by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Stopping terrorists means the Terror War funds dry up. Instead, you can spy on domestic political "enemies". Just like in the Drug War, where less drugs means less war means less funding, and you can't keep your population under surveillence.

    Both those wars are unwinnable, never expected to win, designed and prosecuted by the same people, and directed against the naive American public - with foreigners as expendible props from Central Casting.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  13. Incompatibility by Stoned4Life · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From the article: "...FBCB2 relies on a classified radio band to communicate. BFT, designed later ... uses more-open satellite transmissions; troops can share information at greater distances, but they can't get the kind of secrecy that FBCB2 provides. The Army is working on a bridge between the two systems so that they will be able to share some basic information, but for now they are mostly incompatible. Feldmayer won't be able to see where the tank is leading them, and he won't be able to use FBCB2's Instant Messenger-like tool to quickly relay commands. He won't have access to any of the communications links that increase what the Pentagon calls "situational awareness" and that ultimately power network-centric warfare. If the navigation systems were working, every vehicle could split up or speed ahead if an attack came, without getting lost. But today they will all have to follow the tank's taillights in a neat line, just as it was done in 1944." No matter what the Pentagon eventually comes up with as far as "21st Century Warfare" goes, they're going to have to pull out a big tab from Congress' already lemon-squeezed budget to get everyone up to speed. And from then on, they're going to have to come up with some standards to keep everyone on the same page. It shouldn't be too hard, as long as they don't start hiring people from Microsoft.

    --
    Stoned4Life
    gen = new Random
  14. The obvious solution by wealthychef · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Clearly, what needs to be done is for Congress to pass a "Stop Terrorism NOW" bill that bans cellphones and private email accounts. They are too dangerous if they can be used by terrorists!

    --
    Currently hooked on AMP
  15. The solution is obvious... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Disposable cell phones and anonymous email accounts should be banned. If terrorists are using them at the grassroot level, maybe the American voting population could do the same thing to throw out the current administration. Opps... I didn't meant to say that out aloud. Now Dick Cheney will be hunting me down for my RNC card. :P

  16. Taste of Freedom by DaFallus · · Score: 4, Funny

    Iraq's slaves^H^H^H^H^H^H^H citizens, behold the fruit of your labours! The Mobile Oppression Palace! I don't need to tell you that occupation forces are expensive. But with the Mobile Oppression Palace our dignitaries can oppress your entire country for pennies a day.

    --
    No one cares what your captcha was

    Houston TX, USA
  17. not the first wired war by mr_burns · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I seem to remember the telegraph having been used extensively during the American civil war. Warfighters have used communication technology for thousands of years. Even Sun Tzu talked of using flags and drums for communication.

    If by "wired war" we're talking about the use of telecommunications technologies we have to consider the telegraph. The American civil war is the first conflict I can think of where it was used as a strategic communications tool but it had been around for about 20 years by that point, so it's possible that telecommunications had been used in a major conflict prior to that.

    --
    "Let him go, Ralph. He knows what he's doing." --Otto Mann (simpsons)
  18. Re:They should learn from history by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It is (or at least, it was) winnable, but not the way the current administration is going. You're right, you have to win their hearts. This isn't done by setting up no power puppet governments and using them only as extra bodies for fighting. It requires making Iraq a better place to live.

    Take some of those billions we're spending on bombs and spend it on infrastructure- build sewers, electical plants, roads, hospitals and schools. Send in the army medics to treat at the hospitals. Send peace corp workers to teach at the schools (if you can't find enough Iraqis). Put Iraqis in charge of these things- and let them make actual decisions. Give tax breaks to a few US companies to build factories there to provide jobs.

    The first Iraqi president was an old CIA lackey. Horrible choice. Worst they could have made. The correct choice would be to find someone who has some respect from the 3 factions and dump the job on him. Bonus points if he's moderately anti-US- it makes it look more realistic. Let the IRaqi government actually control Iraq, just use the US army to maintain security at the infrastructure projects. Plan a slow phase out of troops.

    Faced with something like this, an insurgency wouldn't get the support of the people they need to be anything but a lunatic fringe. They'd be completely ineffective. For a fraction of what we spent on bombs and guns, we would have ended up not only with fewer deaths but with a trading partner and possible ally in the middle east. And a democratic government that would actually work without propping up by the US army.

    --
    I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
  19. A war of attrition. by khasim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The insurgency is still viable. Not only viable, it is growing.

    If the insurgency can outlast our occupation, they have, by definition, "won".

    Strategically, there are more factors than just them fighting us. There's also our huge debt and deficit. There's also the price of a gallon of gas.

    We are NOT fighting this war to "win". That is obvious because we are not focusing on the strategy that will allow us to remain in Iraq long enough to outlast the insurgency. As a country, we need to start rationing and saving. Just like in WW2.

    Instead, we're sending the National Guard to Iraq, and then to the Mexican border. Because we cannot afford to correctly handle either situation.

    The insurgency will "win" when we leave.
    And we will leave before the insurgency dies. Because we will be broke.

    1. Re:A war of attrition. by slashdotwannabe · · Score: 2, Insightful
      If the Republic of South Vietnam could have somehow withstood the invasion from the North, would we be calling Vietnam a victory today?

      If the new Iraqi government survives after the US pulls out against the insurgency, would this be a victory?

      --
      This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
  20. Re:Genius at pentagon by silentbozo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "The Pentagon's pursuit of network-centric warfare began in the info-tech boom of the 1990s--largely influenced by, of all things, Wal-Mart."

    You do realize that it's WalMart's logistical and networking infrastructure which has made as unstoppable and large as it is today, right? Remember, when WalMart started, it was nothing more than a bigger, less fancy, five and dime store, completely beneath the notice of the giants of the time - Sears and K-Mart. Today, WalMart dominates the landscape, and Sears/K-Mart are also-rans. And yet, Sam Walton managed to go from one little store in Bentonville, AR to leader of the US retailing indstry - selling pretty much the exact same items as Sears/K-Mart.

    Everybody learns from WalMart. Why should the government be an exception?

  21. You Completely Miss the Point by monopole · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Terrorists have no use for the DoD's C4ISR (command, control, communications, computing, intelligence, surveilence, reconisance) capability. Because it generates a huge foot print, is highly sensitive to decapitation attacks, is massively centralized and is extremely dependent upon huge resources. In fact, terrorists love to disrupt just such systems. For example the central command post for disaster response, and the corresponding antennas for New York were located in and on the World Trade Center.

    This is the central point of asymetric warfare. Effective insurgencies employ highly decentralized, organic and redundant C3I structures which degrade gracefully under attack. The highly centralized C4ISR structure of Iraq's Regular Army collapsed over a period of days as a result of decapitation attacks, twice. On the other hand the insurgency remains highly effective despite intensive attacks over a period of 3 years. As for intelligence, the insurgency is quite effective as evidenced by the number of ambushes, assasinations and kidnappings sucessfully pulled off. You can't fight termites with a sniper rifle.

    To provide another analogy, the bane of Organized Crime is accounting. While the Mafia (which developed from a Sicilian insurgency) is often resillient to conventional procecution over their violent crimes, the need for systematic accounting and banking often proves to be their Achilles heel.

    While terrorists and insurgencies can and do exploit high tech is is usually in a fashion quite different in structure of established goverments. Read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" for a good example.

  22. They don't have time to monitor calls from Iraq by commodoresloat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They are too busy monitoring calls between American citizens within the United States.

  23. War and occupation by Infonaut · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article misses an important point, I think. It speaks about the full spectrum of US involvement in Iraq as if it were all one affair. The invasion was successful in that American forces rapidly toppled the Iraqi government and defeated those Iraqi forces that presented resistence. That was a purely military operation, and the American technology that was designed for high-intensity conflict worked quite well.

    However, at the conclusion of the invasion, American forces had to switch to peacemaking activity. American units in Iraq are part of a larger civil-military effort, and regardless of whether you feel the effort will succeed in the long run or not, it clearly hasn't succeeded yet. The invasion lasted 21 days. The peacemaking effort has lasted three years. According to the Army's own manual on low-intensity conflict, peacemaking operations run into trouble if they last too long:
    The long-range goals of a peacemaking operation are often unclear; therefore, these operations are best terminated by prompt withdrawal after a settlement is reached, or by rapid transition to a peacekeeping operation (see Chapter 4) . Unless the peacemaking force has the necessary power, both military and political, to compel a lasting settlement, it may find itself attempting to govern in the face of opposition from both parties. Extrication from such a situation may be difficult and the force may leave the area having made the situation worse than it was before it intervened.

    Low-intensity insurgency/counterinsurgency operations have always been markedly different than all-out war. Technology is not the force multiplier that it is in high-intensity operations. The most important factors in the success of counterinsurgency operations are political. Troops on the ground are constantly engaged in diplomacy, as the article demonstrated. But soldiers and marines do not conduct their negotiations in a vacuum. If the larger political context is not positive, soldiers confronting insurgents are fighting an uphill battle.

    In Iraq, the locals know the physical environment. They know the cultural environment intimately. They know the individuals and organizations that influence a particular area. Regardless of sectarian schisms, they share a common religion. Technology gives occupiers no advantage in dealing with these advantages enjoyed by insurgents. Getting involved with the locals and making them feel comfortable often requires taking some risks in order to demonstrate good intentions. The American approach, which emphasizes technology and force protection above all else, may actually hinder the development of trust between locals and American forces.

    The larger issue is that while Saddam placed his trust in generals who only gave him news he wanted to hear, the Secretary of Defense seemed to feel that American warfighting technology would win the war and somehow obviate the need for occupation of Iraq. As we have found out, the miscalculation was enormous.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  24. We can intercept it all, understand none of it. by Lanboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    American foriegn lanquage skills are notably crappy. Most of our farsi translators are of questionable use in counter insurgency.

    1. Re:We can intercept it all, understand none of it. by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      American foriegn lanquage skills are notably crappy. Most of our farsi translators are of questionable use in counter insurgency.

      According to a recent State Department IG report, Radio Sawa, our pop music and news station aimed at young Arab audiences, has very little influence since parents tell their kids not to listen to it- "because its broadcasts contained such poor Arabic grammar."

    2. Re:We can intercept it all, understand none of it. by DigiShaman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In other new...

      Parents all around the USA are telling their kids not to listen to Hip-Hop "because it contained such poor English grammar".

      Seriously! Since when do kids listen to their parents anyways? I know I sure as hell didn't. If it was "cool", it's game-on.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    3. Re:We can intercept it all, understand none of it. by Eunuchswear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      See, the problem is that Iraq is like a religous republicans dream - kids listen to thier parents, women are modestly dressed and stay at home, the population is heavily armed in order to resist attempts to install a dictatorship or foreign invasion...

      It's not that the terrorists envy our freedom, it's that the republicans envy Iraq's lack of freedom.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    4. Re:We can intercept it all, understand none of it. by cold+fjord · · Score: 2, Informative
      You didn't really capture the gist of the report, so I'll excerpt:
      The report credited Radio Sawa with attracting a large audience in key Middle East countries but said the station, which has an annual budget of $22 million, has been so preoccupied with building an audience through its music that it has failed to adequately measure whether it is influencing minds.

      Two independent panels of Arab-language experts hired by the inspector general's office gave the programming a mixed review, saying it did not match al-Jazeera in terms of quality and that parents would prefer that their teenagers not listen to Radio Sawa because its broadcasts contained such poor Arabic grammar. "Radio Sawa failed to present America to its audience," one panel concluded.

      The Broadcasting Board of Governors has vehemently protested the report, questioning its methodology and assumptions in a 49-page pre-publication rebuttal.


      Of course, there is more.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  25. Link to Linux by mangu · · Score: 3, Funny
    how are we going to link this story to Linux?


    Here you are. Notice the sentence about "...a Linux-based operating system, as opposed to Windows. 'Evidence shows that Linux is more stable. We are moving in general to where the Army is going, to Linux-based OS,'" says the program's manager, Lt. Col. Dave Gallop".

  26. It should be by argoff · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... but I don't really think that was the theory the Iraq war was launched on.

    It should be. The bottom line is that the internet and the information age are exposing US cluture to the rest of the world in a big way. It is difficult for even the US government to deal with the internet, but I think that many don't understand that for Islamic countries like Iran, Saudi, and Egypt - it is a complete and absolute culture shock. Countries like Iran and radical sects just didn't decide to lash out at us one day because we were jerks (even though the US gov hasn't been a saint). They lashed out at us because to them, their culture and belief systems are under seige by the western world. The unrestricted free flow of ideas and information is very very threatening to the power of the overloards in these cultures.

    So the solution IMHO is to saturate these cultures with such an unyielding and unrelenting free flow of information, that those countering give up in exhaustion. In Iraq the information battle shouldn't be fought with the enemy, but by making sure people in Iraq have unrestricted and uninhibited information access. In addtion, contrary to popular belief, the copyright system contributes to terrorisim. A copyright media system rewards hype over substance, and creates an idea refuge for terrorists to exploit with campaigns of terror that get whipped up out of controll by media hype. By removing copyright controlls (which is the US way of controlling information), you also remove the hype that they exploit.

    1. Re:It should be by JahToasted · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Holy Shit! You did not just say that copyrights cause terrorism, did you? Yeah, copyrights can be a pain in the ass sometimes, but damn... Take a breather and get some perspective dude.

    2. Re:It should be by fufubag · · Score: 2, Informative
      Oh Really? So you are telling me that women/people in general living in some countries run by Islamic Dictators have all the same rights as women do in the Land of The Free? I hope you aren't trying to tell me that, because it simply is not true.

      Here's just one article that proves you wrong: http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/iran/document. do?id=BC7ABDB06436BBB9802569A500714EF4

    3. Re:It should be by (1+-sqrt(5))*(2**-1) · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You do realize that western style schools and a western style legal system was _exactly_ what Saddam did implement during the 70's-80's?
      Thanks: that needs to be underscored again and again; a classic moment from 2003: the American media cheers the graduation of women from Baghdad University, forgetting to mention that they would have been attending for four years under Hussein. From a similar article:
      And right now she's on a high: an Iraqi woman, able to study in America, ironically because she'd learned English in Iraq. And her education at Baghdad University? It was funded by Saddam Hussein.
    4. Re:It should be by h4rm0ny · · Score: 2, Insightful


      You are both completely right and I am wrong. The scary thing is that I am usually the one pointing out that Iraq is a modern state and [was until US occupation] secular. Re-reading my post I can see that I'm misguided even without your replies. Now I have to reassess just how very difficult it is to avoid picking up the prevailing misconceptions of your society.

      I can't edit my comment, so I hope that lots of other people have read your rebuttals. Thanks!

      -H.

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  27. Creating order vs. maintaining chaos by Dire+Bonobo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > What progress can insurgents really say they have made since the start of the war?

    Quite a bit, unfortunately.

    For a start, they've successfully prevented much of our reconstruction efforts. The large majority of the funds set aside for reconstruction have been allocated, but oil production, electricity generation, water, sewer systems, road networks, security, and employment are all around or below pre-war levels. Security and employment troubles are especially bad - about 1,000 civilians and police/military are being violently killed per month now, as opposed to well under a tenth of that in the last years of Hussein's regime, and unemployment is running at about 40%, making insurgency or crime look tempting to large numbers of desperate young men with nothing else to occupy their time.

    If the money runs out and Iraq still hasn't been effectively rebuilt, the insurgents have scored a major victory. Without that rebuilding, it's questionable whether the democratic reforms we've started in Iraq can really take root - without jobs, security, and infrastructure, the new society will remain extremely fragile. That fragility isn't so much of a problem at the moment, since it's widely known that a great deal of time, money, and effort is being spent to rebuild Iraq. If that effort fails to bear fruit, though, the insurgents will have successfully undercut our attempt to stabilize the situation, and it's not clear that we'll give it a second try.

    That's the thing about asymmetric warfare like this: the status quo means the insurgents are winning. Our task is to create order; theirs is to maintain chaos.

    We all know US troops won't be there forever, meaning every day that passes without enough order being created is a day the insurgents make progress. The greater the chaos in the country when US troops finally leave, the greater the opportunity for insurgents to move into the power vaccuum and exert greater control over the country. If this happens, they win.

    Essentially, we're in a race against time - we need to make Iraq stable, safe, and prosperous before we leave - and "progress" for the insurgents is simply blocking our progress towards that goal. Every day Iraq doesn't get better fast enough - every time a pipeline is attacked, every time a hospital isn't built because security costs took up the construction budget, every time a death squad murders civilians of the "wrong group" - the insurgents make progress.

    The shorter our withdrawal timetable, the more progress we have to make each day, and hence the more progress the insurgents make when we fall behind. If we truly are willing to stick this out - and remember that the average counter-insurgency of this type lasts 9 years - they have almost no chance of winning. But they're betting we won't - or can't - and it's not clear they're wrong. It's an alarming situation. I hope this is a race we win, even if it means we have to eat crow to get the manpower it takes.

  28. A problem with an easy solution... by raehl · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If insurgents are using untraceable cell phones to plan attacks, it would seem the simple answer is to have the cellular network stop accepting calls from disposable phones. Either the number is registered to someone, or you can't make a call with it. Then we can give that NSA terrorist phone call pattern matching program a real test!

    The reason we are losing in Iraq is because we are trying to have a small number of troops fight a small number of insurgents. This doesn't work because the in that environment, the insurgents get to choose when to fight.

    We are never going to be successful until we have enough troops and equipment in Iraq to control transportation and communication.

  29. Is the war really being lost? by FleaPlus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The general consensus in the media, popular culture, and commentary on places like slashdot seems to be that the conflict in Iraq is totally lost, but despite Bush's dumbassery, I'm still not convinced that's the case. There's an interesting article ("The Real Iraq") I was reading today by Amir Taheri, about how the realities he finds in Iraq are different from what the media portrays. He also discusses a number of signs which cause him to believe conditions in Iraq are getting progressively better (especially compared to what they were pre-war).

    I'm still not entirely certain I agree, but it's an interesting read nonetheless. A quote:

    Since my first encounter with Iraq almost 40 years ago, I have relied on several broad measures of social and economic health to assess the countrys condition. Through good times and bad, these signs have proved remarkably accurateas accurate, that is, as is possible in human affairs. For some time now, all have been pointing in an unequivocally positive direction.

    The first sign is refugees. When things have been truly desperate in Iraqin 1959, 1969, 1971, 1973, 1980, 1988, and 1990long queues of Iraqis have formed at the Turkish and Iranian frontiers, hoping to escape. In 1973, for example, when Saddam Hussein decided to expel all those whose ancestors had not been Ottoman citizens before Iraqs creation as a state, some 1.2 million Iraqis left their homes in the space of just six weeks. This was not the temporary exile of a small group of middle-class professionals and intellectuals, which is a common enough phenomenon in most Arab countries. Rather, it was a departure en masse, affecting people both in small villages and in big cities, and it was a scene regularly repeated under Saddam Hussein.

    Since the toppling of Saddam in 2003, this is one highly damaging image we have not seen on our television setsand we can be sure that we would be seeing it if it were there to be shown. To the contrary, Iraqis, far from fleeing, have been returning home. By the end of 2005, in the most conservative estimate, the number of returnees topped the 1.2-million mark. Many of the camps set up for fleeing Iraqis in Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia since 1959 have now closed down. The oldest such center, at Ashrafiayh in southwest Iran, was formally shut when its last Iraqi guests returned home in 2004.

    1. Re:Is the war really being lost? by debruce · · Score: 2, Informative
      These aren't the refugees you're looking for. Nothing to see here. Move along.

      ...when six armed men stormed into their sons' primary school this month, shot a guard dead, and left fliers ordering it to close, Assad Bahjat knew it was time to leave.

      "The main thing now is to just get out of Iraq," said Mr. Bahjat, standing in a room heaped with suitcases and bedroom furniture in eastern Baghdad.

      In the latest indication of the crushing hardships weighing on the lives of Iraqis, increasing portions of the middle class seem to be doing everything they can to leave the country. In the last 10 months, the state has issued new passports to 1.85 million Iraqis, 7 percent of the population and a quarter of the country's estimated middle class.

      The school system offers another clue: Since 2004, the Ministry of Education has issued 39,554 letters permitting parents to take their children's academic records abroad. The number of such letters issued in 2005 was double that in 2004, according to the director of the ministry's examination department. Iraqi officials and international organizations put the number of Iraqis in Jordan at close to a million.
      ...
      Mr. Abdul Razzaq, who will move his family to Syria next month, where he has already rented an apartment, said a fistfight broke out while he waited for five hours in a packed passport office to fill out applications for his two young sons.
      ...
      "At the beginning we said, 'Let's wait, maybe it will be better tomorrow,' " Mr. Kubba said.

      "Now I know it is time to go."

  30. Re:Genius at pentagon by jcr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You do realize that it's WalMart's logistical and networking infrastructure which has made as unstoppable and large as it is today, right?

    Actually, I'd say it had more to do with Sam Walton's realization that there was a lot more business available in smaller towns than Sears and K-mart realized.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  31. Speaking of Iraqi refugees by sjofi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    News today:

    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/ar ticle548945.ece

    Across central Iraq, there is an exodus of people fleeing for their lives as sectarian assassins and death squads hunt them down. At ground level, Iraq is disintegrating as ethnic cleansing takes hold on a massive scale.

    As a sidenote I think the argument that lack of refugees is a sign of things getting better in Iraq is pretty stupid...

  32. Cell phones in iraq by tibman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I could have replied to almost anyone's post.. but yours was convenient. Their cell phone service is wayyy different than say America's. I bought a cell phone and was talking to my buddy in less than a minute, literally. Once you have a phone that can take those wtfchips, you can use most of the networks there. If you went too far south, you had to switch to one of those kuwaiti wtfchips. I had to buy cards to deposit money onto my wtfchip.. that was the worst part. I'd ask some hodgi for a $10 card and he'd say "mista, for you twenty dollas." Bah, i'm an American! i'm not use to the whole "talking the guy down thing". I'm sure he probably got some counterfitted cards for a buck and made 15X that from me. As far as "insurgents" using cell phones and the NSA/CIA listening in on them.. what's the point? it's not like they'd tell me about it. I'm the guy on the ground with a gun. My group worked on tips from locals. Most of em are criminals in some way.. so neighbors are quick to tell the IPs. Not to mention gossip. Mygod does Iraqi gossip travel fast. My group was pretty much "it" for many many miles. There wasn't any three letter agency giving us tips. I'd bet Bagdad gets monitored quite a bit, but whether the lefthand tells the righthand what's going on is a totally different issue.

    --
    http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
  33. Amerika is building 14 permanent bases in Iraq. by kop · · Score: 4, Informative

    Amerika is building 14 permanent bases in Iraq.
    http://www.google.com/search?q=14+permanent+bases+ in+Iraq/

    Your leadership is keen to hold press conferences on it, but you are there to stay.
    It is the only choice they have because there simply is no base for a US friendly regime in Iraq.
    To keep control over their oil you will need military presence

  34. Re:When does free flow of information become TMI? by Da+Masta · · Score: 2, Funny

    And how did they find out he was a virgin?

    Because he was trying to load Slashdot on that same glowing touchscreen?

  35. Shinseki vs Rumsfeld by Bowling+Moses · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's a little more like this:

    Rumsfeld: We're invading Iraq to take their oil...I mean, destroy their WMDs!
    Shinseki: Okay, that'll take several hundred thousand men.
    Rumsfeld: Nonsense! It'll take six Special Forces guys armed with bananas!
    Shinseki: No, it'll take several hundred thousand men.
    Rumsfeld: Who's the expert here soldier? You with your decades of hands-on military experience or me with my |337 Risk skillz?
    Shinseki: ...
    Rumsfeld: Okay, just to make you feel better, we'll send Rambo as backup.
    Shinseki: [shakes head in disbelief] Sir, Rambo is a fictional character.
    Rumsfeld: YOU'RE A FICTIONAL CHARACTER!
    Shinseki: Calm down, sir. After we beat the Iraqi Army, "Something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers...would be required. We're talking about post-hostilities control over a piece of geography that's fairly significant, with the kinds of ethnic tensions that could lead to other problems. And so it takes a significant ground- force presence to maintain a safe and secure environment, to ensure that people are fed, that water is distributed, all the normal responsibilities that go along with administering a situation like this." Again, that's several hundred thousand pairs of boots on the ground!
    Rumsfeld: Boots...why didn't you say so in the first place! Here's the plan: six heavily banana-laden Special Forces guys (backed by Rambo with a big, pointy knife) will fly in with cargo blimps and pummel Iraq with hundreds of thousands of brand new boots until they surrender their oil.
    Shinski: There's so much wrong with that I don't even know where to begin.
    Rumsfeld: Maybe you're right. Forget new boots, just get the boots from the Marines after they complete basic training. Nice and stinky--that'll show the Iranians!
    Shinseki: You mean Iraqis.
    Rumsfeld: Well, for now at least.
    Shinseki: Exactly how many countries is this administration planning on invading? We don't have enough troops! Iraq alone will require several hundred thousand men!
    Shinseki: What is your fascination with "several hundred thousand men?" Are you gay? I'll bet that's it. You just told me you're gay, so under "Don't ask, don't tell" you told, so you're fired!
    Shinseki: [resists urge to strangle jabbering senile old fool]Sir, I don't know what world you live on, but it isn't the same one as the rest of us. Reality isn't subjective. Iraq will require several hundred thousand troops.
    Rumsfeld: [pouts]Haven't you heard? We're all postmodernists in this administration. Reality is what we say it is, so if I say six soldiers armed with bananas (supported by Rambo and a big pointy knife) can successfully secure Iraq's vast oil wealth by dropping several hundred thousand pairs of stinky boots from cargo blimps, then by God that's what will happen or my name isn't Queen Elizabeth the Great!


    Quote taken from wikipedia from exchange between Senator Levin and General Shinseki before the Senate Armed Forces Committee.

  36. Re:Also, Not to be contrarian or anything by EQ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I differ.

    "Loss depend on not getting the objectives you want. And therefore the US has lost (remember - the cakewalk? Did that happen?)"

    The objective was not to achieve "a cakewalk" - the objective of the US and allied military was to toss out the Saddam backed government and replace it with a government that would not threaten the US and that would be more open and more democratic. And to do so with the minimum use of force needed.

    So looking at the facts, it is a success. The new government and parliament were seated today, the result of a series of plebicitess, constitutional votes and generla elections, nationwide. And the combat fatality count of US & Allied troops due to enemy action (exclude heart attacks, accidents, etc) is historically amazingly low for such a large scale operation.

    Before the mods go ape on me for being a "Bushie" - observe that the goal and achievement were at question - and thats what I'm looking at, as clearly as looking at whether Napoleon acheived his victory at Waterloo (he didn't - losing his bid to split the allied armies into 2 parts and defeat each in detail, ensuring the survival of his Imperial reign), or the Germans achieved their goals in the Franco Prussian wars (they did with the awarding of Alsace-Lorraine, etc).

    This isnt to say the goal and its acheivement was "right" or "just" or "proper" - those involve judging the *reasons* for that goal - those judgements are a different thing altogether, and highly debatable.

    So did the US military achieve its goal, as set forth by the politicians, in Iraq?

    SO far, "yes" is the resonable answer.

    As to is it WHY they went after that goal, thats a debate for elsehwere - its a different question.

    --
    Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo! http://goo.gl/J9bkO
  37. Cites for article's claims? by Dire+Bonobo · · Score: 2, Informative
    > There's an interesting article ("The Real Iraq") I was reading today by Amir Taheri, about how the
    > realities he finds in Iraq are different from what the media portrays. He also discusses a number
    > of signs which cause him to believe conditions in Iraq are getting progressively better
    > (especially compared to what they were pre-war).

    This article indeed paints a very different picture of Iraq than the one we usually hear about, but some of its claims cite little or no corroborating evidence. It motivated me to a little digging on my own, though, to see what the situation is. Unfortunately, the reports I could find often contradict the article. For example, the article asserts:

    "To the contrary, Iraqis, far from fleeing, have been returning home. By the end of 2005, in the most conservative estimate, the number of returnees topped the 1.2-million mark."


    By contrast, in December 2005 the UN Refugee Agency noted:

    "Some 20,500 refugees returned from Iran and Saudi Arabia with the support of UNHCR. Parallel to the organized return movements, the Iraqi Ministry of Trade recorded the spontaneous return of some 270,000 refugees to Iraq after May 2003."


    That's only about 300,000 rather than 1,200,000. In fact, that same UN article states:

    "UNHCR estimates that nearly one million Iraqis (of whom some 98,000 are registered refugees) are living in the countries immediately surrounding Iraq, and a further 350,000 Iraqis (of whom 166,000 are registered refugees) are living further afield."


    Even assuming that doesn't count the 300,000 already returned, that's only a total of 1.65 million Iraqis residing or formerly residing abroad, of whom the article asserts 75% have returned to Iraq by "the most conservative estimate".


    More importantly, though, that doesn't even take into account the reportedly-vast numbers of Iraqis fleeing Iraq. From a report entitled "Iraqi Refugees Overwhelm Syria":

    "Syrian officials say 700,000 Iraqis from various ethnic, religious and economic backgrounds have arrived since the U.S.-led invasion, far more than in any other country in the region."


    There are several other highly-questionable assertions in the article (e.g., Iraq is again a major oil exporter that will fulfill its OPEC quota of 2.8Mbpd by the end of 2006; the US Department of Energy reports that Iraq doesn't even have an OPEC quota, and is producing at best 2.0Mbpd as of May 2006) and enough politicization and bias that, much as I'd like to believe what the author is saying, "The Real Iraq" is not a credible piece.