Novell CEO Shakeup Puts Ron Hovsepian in Charge

jht writes "Arriving in my Inbox a few minutes ago (I'm a Novell Partner), was the announcement that effective immediately, CEO Jack Messman and CFO Joe Tibbetts are out of jobs at Novell. Existing president Ron Hovsepian was named CEO, and an interim CFO was named as well. Messman will stay on the board thru the end of October, though. A webcast of the conference call should be available shortly at www.novell.com/company/ir." ukhackster links to ZDNet's coverage of the shakeup, writing "It looks like [Messman's] been blamed for Novell's poor performance in the Linux space versus Red Hat. But can Linux ever be a real cash cow?"

Comments

Can linux ever be a real cash cow!?

[saleenS281]

Can it? Is that a rhetorical question? Linux already is a cash cow, I think Redhat proved that long ago...

Re:Can linux ever be a real cash cow!?

[Medievalist]

Is that a rhetorical question?

Rhetorical question, troll... you say "to-may-toe", I say "to-mah-toe".

Re:Can linux ever be a real cash cow!?

[ackthpt]

Can it? Is that a rhetorical question? Linux already is a cash cow, I think Redhat proved that long ago...

I think IBM have proven that as well.

Keep in mind, if you have companies raking in billions supporting Windows, you're doing something wrong if you can't do it with Linux

Re:Can linux ever be a real cash cow!?

[neonprimetime]

It depends on how you view the cow ...
- Is this "cash cow" producing cash?
- Or is this "cash cow" eating cash?

Re:Can linux ever be a real cash cow!?

[Anonymous Coward]

another bullshit victim hah

Re:Can linux ever be a real cash cow!?

[IAmTheDave]

Yeah, but it isn't Linux that's raking in the cash, it's supporting Linux. And if you're making millions and millions supporting and fixing people's Linux installations, what does that say about Linux?

Same thing it says about Windows?

Re:Can linux ever be a real cash cow!?

[codzumd]

"Same thing it says about Windows?" A major argument against Windows isn't just that it 'breaks, but security issues, backwards-compatibility etc... Regardless of what the OS is, there is always going to be a need for support. *nix is superior, not perfect.

Re:Can linux ever be a real cash cow!?

[PeelBoy]

It starts by eating it and then produces it a little later

Like this?

[i_want_you_to_throw_]

killall -HUP NovellCEO

Re:Like this?

[path_man]

On Netware, isn't it an ABEND??

Re:Like this?

[jesuscyborg]

$ tail /var/log/messages
Jun 22 11:38:53 ipx-svr-lol NovelCEO (): Re-parsing mission statement...
Jun 22 11:38:55 ipx-svr-lol NovelCEO (): [FATAL] Out Of Equity

Re:Like this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, as I once discovered when my Apple Mail client killed the corporate mail server (IMAP on Groupwise) 6 times in a row :) I had no idea what the admins were screaming about at first...

Jack and Joe went up the hill..

[GonzoTech]

.. to catch some open source company's glory..

Jack fell down, as Ron stole is crown, and Dana told Joe, "You don't matter."

"can Linux ever be a cash cow?" & real reason?

[ilovegeorgebush]

Thats a can o' worms. Moreover, its also a crap question. GNU/Linux probably wont be a huge market in terms of overall profit from selling it, but its always going to provide some flow. Whether it be software or support, it isn't totaly redundant.

Also, is the real reason they were removed from their positions due to Novell not performing in the Linux market the push behind this decision? Or is this classic media hype/speculation?

I don't know ....

[hawkeye_82]

I just don't know whether to feel sad for these guys, that they're taking the fall for something that they may not be in control of, or to feel happy that the top management has taken the hit rather than the lower ranks which is usually more common practice in corporate America.

I just don't know how to feel !! Help me Slashdot...

Re:I don't know ....

[Anonymous Coward]

You know Novell also laid around 600 to 1000 employees last year, right?

Re:I don't know ....

[Anonymous Coward]

And same amount the year before ... The lower ranks have been taking the hits for years at Novell. *Finally* the top management is taking some hits as well.

Re:I don't know ....

[Anonymous Coward]

You know Novell also laid around 600 to 1000 employees last year, right?

No wonder Messman left. He must be tired from all that hanky-panky.

For the want of a proofreader.

[azav]

"Existing president Ron Hovsepian was names CEO"

Names?

Why don't the editors actually correct errors in these articles they post?

It just looks shoddy when articles are posted to inform and aren't even checked for basic grammar.

Re:For the want of a proofreader.

[Goblez]

Naaahh, he obviously just changed his name to reflect his new title. I'm personally was names El Presidente.

Re:For the want of a proofreader.

[dhruvx]

may be Slashdot needs an internal shake up as well! We have seen too many of these typos lately.

Re:For the want of a proofreader.

[larryau]

Maybe not all of us have a stick up our a_ _ so it does not bother us much. Seriously if your just too damn stupid to figure it out maybe you should not be reading it.

Re:For the want of a proofreader.

[azav]

You're got professional and accurate and you've got shoddy.

Does your compiler check your code for you and alert you to errors?

If you can't communicate properly and grammar check your communications, why do you even check your code for accuracy?

It's a simple point of being correct and accurate or looking like a chump because you don't proof your own work.

To illustrate my point, you typed:
"Seriously if your just too damn stupid to figure it out maybe you should not be reading it."

Your you are. Basically, you told me that "just too damn stupid" belongs to me.

If you wish to insult me correctly, a proper version of your sentence is below.
"Seriously, if you're just too damn stupid to figure it out maybe you should not be reading it."

On the other hand, if you can not type it correctly, maybe you should not be writing it?

If professionals can't master the basics of 5th grade English it's just a poor reflection on themselves and how they come across to others. In a question and answer session with President Bush, a woman from a professional news organization submitting a question for GWB, asked him if he "conversated" regularly with the person in question. Yes, she looked like a chump on national TV. As did her organization for hiring a reporter who uses words that do not exist.

Re:For the want of a proofreader.

[azav]

HEH

"You're got professional and accurate and you've got shoddy."

Looks like I'm a prime example.

"You've got professional and accurate and you've got shoddy."

It figures, I'd catch that one after proofing it and sending.

Also I typed "your is not your" using the greater than and less than symbols. Slashdot seems to filter that out.

Re:For the want of a proofreader.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you honestly think that they read all this stuff? There are a lot of type A (as in Anal) readers out there to pick up errors. If you don't like it that way, stop paying for it.

Linux=CashCow

[infosec_spaz]

I agree with the guy up there...Linux is already a cash cow...Look at how many companies who make software that runs on Linux are very prosperous, and look at Novell...They have been around a long time, and they plan on being here much longer, hell, I love most of their software, it has a place, and as long as they keep up with the market, and know where to put the software, they will keep a strong customer base. That said, I know several companies who are already running their enterprise Linux, with Netware services and LOVE it!! Yes, Linux will continue to proliferate the enterprise, and as long as companies like Novell are pushing it, it will get there relatively fast.

Re:Linux=CashCow

[Lumpy]

The funny part is the number of nay-sayers here that have zero clue as to the amount of penetration that linux has.

Linux is absolutely number one in integrated items. Most mp3 players at the home component level to many pocket units run linux. most DVD players sold run linux, most PVR's run linux, Commercial security pvr's run linux, almost all SIP phones are linux based.... the list goes on and on and on.

IP security cameras, etc...

In the high end home automation and integration bix I find linux to be more prevalent than microsoft or QNX or other os types simply because of cost (Crestron is a MS whore with their embedded XP but most of their items are repackaged devices available with linux already in them... Adagio Music server for one example.)

This is ignoring the server room and workstations.... Linux is everywhere.

Re:Linux=CashCow

[willabr]

Thank you for your comments Mr. Hovsepian

Re:Linux=CashCow

[tshak]

The funny part is the number of nay-sayers here that have zero clue as to the amount of penetration that linux has.

Linux is absolutely number one in integrated items. Most mp3 players at the home component level to many pocket units run linux. most DVD players sold run linux, most PVR's run linux, Commercial security pvr's run linux, almost all SIP phones are linux based.... the list goes on and on and on.

The funny part is the number of linux supporters here that have zero clue as to what profit means. The companies mentioned here are a great example of how linux could be making money but is not. That is, these companies are not paying license fees for each product sold, even though a non trivial part of their product is based on linux. Sure, they may pay a nominal support fee to RH or IBM for initial development, but this is nowhere near the volume required for "cash cow" status. All of the hard work that Linus and other contributers have put into linux are going towards cost reductions for these companies. In return, the linux community gets nothing while the executives and shareholders of these companies are rewarded for the increase margin in their mp3 players, PVR's, and other products. You're right, the list goes on and on of people making more money on their products because they don't have to pay for linux. But make no mistake, *linux* is not making the money here.

Re:Linux=CashCow

[rtb61]

Linux will never be a cash cow. A "cash cow" implies that it's the customer who gets milked. Linux is hardwork, good customer service and lean margins. The software industry is maturing and the "cash cows" (milking the cutomers i.e. high margins, low service) is reaching it's final days.

Thats why you are seeing the drop off in support for the dead end, expensive, forced upgrade cycle products and the shift to open source where the software develops at a pace defined by the customer and not by the supplier's demand for ever increasing profits.

Every industry has had it's development cycle, after the giddy high profit days it matures and becomes customer driven with lean margins and the dinosaurs that can't adapt become history.

It is hardly suprising that Novell laid of staff, everybody has been laying off windrones as companies have been shifting to open source, the staff that can't adapt become fossils. Of course with improved stability and security, it only takes one open source admin to replace three or more windrones.

Re:"can Linux ever be a cash cow?" & real reas

[Anonymous Coward]

Until the SuSE team learns what the term "regression" means in the software QA/QC arena and
learns to do Regression Testing, so that the YaST2/Patch RPM debacle is eliminated in SuSE 10.1,
no, Linux will NEVER be a cash cow for them.

I've been a loyal SuSE Professional customer for years, buying the retail box at retail in a
CompUSA, just to make sure that both CompUSA and SuSE get the revenue from it and are encouraged
by retail sales. Yeah, I could download and burn the bits for next to nothing, but I am willing
to support a worthwhile competitor to Red Hat, just to keep everybody on their toes.

But for them to break the YOU functionality in SuSE 10.1 AND NOT FIX IT FOR FCS is INEXCUSEABLE !!

I worked for many years for a major UNIX supplier, and that sort of issue was called a
SHOWSTOPPER bug and it meant STOP THE SHOW.

The fact that they refused to include updated versions of stuff like hplip and k3b is also fairly
short-sighted and stupid, but accurately reflects a lackadaisical attitude about product quality.

What a load...

[WindBourne]

But can Linux ever be a real cash cow?

of crap. Linux distros are already making money and growing. The real issue is wether a distro can become a monopoly like MS. And the answer is no. That can never occur due to the GPL.

Re:What a load...

[bano]

Actually a distro can become an monopoly of sorts even with the GPL,

BigDatabaseVendor: I vote we exclusively support DistroX
BigMiddlewareVendor: me top me too
BigIntegrationVendor: Yep
BigDatabaseVendor: We also have to strongarm or buy out our competition
DistroX: We need exclusive OEM rights from a DudeYourgettingahardwareVendor and OverPricedBlueBoxVendor.
All: $$$$$

You are always free to make whatever work on whatever platform you wish if you have the source, but $upport is required for the PHB's and you don't get that $upport safety blanket they insist upon if your not running DistroX.

Re:What a load...

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's say it happens to RHEL, what is to stop Novell from essentially making a CentOS like RHEL clone and taking a big share of Red Hat's support contracts. Then since they have all of this extra cash they improve their clone to be better than RHEL.

bingo, monopoly defeated

Re:What a load...

[spudnic]

Certainly it can. The OS is a commodity. It's the custom features and tools that Novell can supply running on top of that OS on the server side that is the selling point. On the user side they can develop an enjoyable experience that anyone can use but is enhanced if the organization is running their server software.

Why spend their time and money keeping up their own OS when they can use Linux and devote their time to other development?

Re:What a load...

[bano]

The way vendors work is they are very specific about what they support, not support as in will it work or not, support as in tech support, release support, management saftey blanket support.
So it doesn't matter if you are running CentOS, Fedora, or HomeMadeOSBasedOffRedHat, if it's not REDHAT AS SPECIFICVERSIONNUMBER, they are gonna tell you to go pound sand. Thats not to say the the app/middleware/etc... wont run, you'll just be unsupported, and if you can fix it your self 100% of the time, more power to you, but most management will not allow you to run w/o vendor support of some way shape or form. Even some business insurance providers require that you have certain levels of support for some critical stuff, much like they require a disaster recovery plan.

Return of Hubert Mantel?

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

It looks like [Messman's] been blamed for Novell's poor performance in the Linux space versus Red Hat. But can Linux ever be a real cash cow?

Wonder if Hovsepian will be on the phone with Hubert Mantel?

Or is that whole KDE/Gnome thang just a bridge too far?

A little off-topic, but here are a few ideas I've always had for Novel:

1) Write [or purchase] an in-house COMPILER! You've been releasing operating systems for more than twenty years now, yet you've never released your own compiler?!? Steve Ballmer may be a jackass, but he's absolutely correct when he says that it's all about "Developers, developers, developers!" If you can't write your own, then purchase Codewarrior from Motorola/Freescale. [By the way, my advice would be the same for AMD: If you're really serious about confronting Intel, then you've gotta produce something that can challenge the Intel C/C++ compiler.]

2) I don't want to say "abandon the desktop", because you've got a history of interest & subsequent disinterest in the desktop going back more than a decade, to WordPerfect and Corel, but here's an idea that involves expansion beyond the desktop: Take a long, hard look at the embedded market. NDS for QNX, NDS for VxWorks, NDS for Sybian, NDS for iTunes, etc, etc, etc. There are gonna be literally BILLIONS of those little devices sold in the next few years, and somebody's gonna hafta provide enterprise-level/mission-critical security for all of 'em. Might as well be the best enterprise-level/mission-critical outfit in the world.

3) Oh, and while you're at it: PLEASE port NDS to FreeBSD/OpenBSD.

4) Get the hell outta Beantown and return to your Utah roots. Blue States are where companies go to die. Red States are where they go to thrive.

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm..

1. Why should they do that? There are plenty of good open source or otherwise free compilers out there. I fail to see what Novell can gain by creating a compiler for any language that already exists (or creating a new language for that matter)

2. The embedded market is a good place to look for growth, but I don't think those devices will, in general, make good use of a directory server. If they jumped into providing embedded OS's, and could outcompete companies like montavista, could help their cashflow.

3. Never hurts to have a program running in as many places as possible, but I doubt they will do it since they are putting all their energy into linux.

4. They are in the state they are in for major tax breaks and so forth.

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[iccaros]

Write [or purchase] an in-house COMPILER!

never used mono or monodevelop I see. both are novell children

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[thebdj]

So let us address a few shall we:

1) Redhat, who I am pretty sure is the leading Linux distributor, does not have their own C/C++ compiler. The responsibility for a compiler does not really fall on the software makers so much as it should fall on the chip makers. Look at the vast majority of *nix systems with non-gcc compilers readily available. HP-UX, the main commercial compiler is available from HP, who either developed or help develop both the PA-RISC and Itanium chips their OS runs on. The same is true of Sun Solaris, though you can freely acquire Sun Studio 11 now to do the majority of this work for you, once again they are the ones with the chip, UltraSparc in this case. Repeat for AIX. There are also Intel based compilers available for their various chips on various platforms. None of the makers of the Operating Systems does not have some hand in the chips as well.

2) For all we know they are.

3) Sort of like 2, except let them work the bugs out in Linux first.

4) They do still have offices in Provo. They just learned that none of the good upper management and executive people wanted to live in a) One of the whitest and non-diverse areas in the country and b) The religious (and political, and social) conservative capital of the US. Your statement is insane. So every company based in Silicon Valley is just a moment away from death? Btw, I do not mean to sound like I am flaming on Utah, but it is a valid complaint that it is a tightly conservative area and not very diverse either (85% white, 9% hispanic).

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[soren42]

Take a long, hard look at the embedded market. NDS for QNX, NDS for VxWorks, NDS for Sybian, NDS for iTunes, etc, etc, etc.

Let's ignore for a second that it's eDirectory now, not NDS...

I think you meant to say "NDS for Symbian", not Sybian. Although it is much funnier your way.

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[operagost]

Nobody's ever concerned about the fact that caucasians are a huge minority in New Mexico-- but if we find a spot in Utah that has "only" 1 Hispanic person out of 11 (and I'll guess about the same number of Blacks) liberals get in a tizzy. News flash: the national percentage of population made up of Hispanics is only 13% (and about the same for Blacks), so 9% doesn't constitute a Nexus of Indiversity. Of course, once Vincente Fox finishes sending every last Mexican over the border illegally, those figures may change a bit.

It's also news to me that all (you said, "none of the good upper management") good managers are intolerant atheists.

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[evil_Tak]

...and thus you demonstrate the parent's point.

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[Anonymous Coward]

4) Get the hell outta Beantown and return to your Utah roots. Blue States are where companies go to die. Red States are where they go to thrive.

WTF? Last time I checked, "Silicon Valley" was in a "Blue State"

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[Lendrick]

I think you meant to say "NDS for Symbian", not Sybian...

Hmmmm... Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those. That'd be one noisy server room.

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[thebdj]

The african american population of Utah is about 0.8% of the population. This isn't to say that places with small minority populations cannot be progressive, or at least attempt it. Maine is 96% Caucasian and 82% Christian, about 6% below the average...yet they have taken very pro-gay rights stances and have voted Democrat for President since 1992. So check it out. BTW, thank you for the very Pat Buchanan sounding reply. BTW, I am Libertarian, not liberal.

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[Anonymous Coward]

...and thus you demonstrate the parent's point.

What point? The point that to be politically correct we need a certain mix of ethnicities? That he doesn't like illegal immigration? Show me all of the white people in Gary, IN or Detriot, MI. How about all of the latino folks in Vermont? Geez. We're not all one big happy family no many how times you click your heels, eh Dorothy?

You can take your politically correct bullshit and shove it up your ass.

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[infosec_spaz]

Well...You would think it was already available...eDirectory (NDS) has been available for Linux/Solaris for quite a long time...in looking at my cd collection just now, I have a copy that ran on Caldera Linux from back in 1999.

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[aevans]

100% of large corporation CEOs live in 100% white communities. Even the black and hispanic ones, which by percentage, are vastly less than the population of Provo Utah.

Re:Return of Hubert Mantel?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

4)Lower cost, but harder to find, talent exists mainly outside of the huge population cetners california, New York. I think moving out of the place of origin companies lose something. Take a look at gateway, they used to be unbelievable. I think their move out of south dakota was a large reason for their decline. I think its okay to stay in Silicon, like google,apple, whoever, but moving to a place like that just 'cause executives don't like it in the sticks is generally a bad idea. It reeks of vanity, and I think vain managers are the worst ones.

PS. No, that's not a valid complaint. If everyoen jsut stays where they are comfortable, what happens to diversity? you end up with towns, like mine, that one the whole reflect the national average of minority populations, but are self segregrated. It happens on a nationwide, and world wide basis as well. If you want the situation to change, you have to be willing to help it change.

Heads will roll

[Billosaur]

More on the shakeup.

We're seeing this more now (think Sun and SGI) -- companies that are underperforming making changes at the top in the hopes of generating new intitiatives and pumping up the stock price. It remains to be seen if all the bloodletting will lead to any marked improvement in the short term -- new execs have to deal with things as they are and try to untangle the mess left on their desk before they can move forward.

Re:Heads will roll

[am 2k]

Well, but firing a few engineers and keeping the management that created the problem in the first place would be even worse. At least they really get rid of those that are responsible.

Re:Heads will roll

[Ryan Amos]

Many of these companies that are failing are doing so because the "mid-size business server" market that once ran Netware, or on Sun or SGI hardware has moved to commodity PC hardware with Linux. A mid-size Oracle database in 1995 was runinng on Sun hardware under Solaris, now the reccomended platform is RedHat on an Opteron.

These companies are trying to adapt, but the fact is that their market niche was absorbed by the commodity PC market (pentiums and opterons,) which is low-margin and highly competitive. A lot of them are trying to move into this space and they just can't compete with Dell or HP on price because of their corporate sales model. Sun sends in 2 or 3 experienced technical sales guys to try and sell you something. Dell hires kids fresh out of college who take phone and internet orders.

These dinosaurs are pretty much doomed to extinction in my eyes. Sun does make some good Opteron boxes, but that niche will disappear as well once Dell starts selling 4-way Opterons. IMO Sun needs to get out of the hardware/OS business entirely and focus on their products that are doing well and have a future. Solaris is dead in the water and

Re:Heads will roll

[killjoe]

Aren't we seeing in MS too. How many top MS management have left the company in the last six months? It must be the season.

Re:Heads will roll

[Anonymous Coward]

HP already makes Opteron servers that perform just as well as Sun's, but are much cheaper. Sun v20 = HP DL385, Sun v40 = HP DL585. Since Dell isn't doing anything with AMD, I doubt that they'll start using Opterons any time soon.

I think Sun will die as soon as CIOs figure out that they can port most of their Sun apps over to Linux for like 50% of the cost.

It's about damn time...

[Anonymous Coward]

All I can say is that I've worked with both of these men in the past, and Ron is clearly a better choice to lead Novell. Ron brings something very unique to the table - a deep understanding of the technologies Novell is focusing on. Additionally, he has a very clear vision of how to execute on their corporate strategy.

If any of you had ever seen Messman speak at LinuxWorld, BrainShare, or other events, you should have recognized that he was just reading words off of a sheet of paper (or teleprompter). He didn't seem to exhibit even the most basic of understanding when it came to either major Novell product focus (Identity Management and Linux/Open Source). Additionally, he wasn't the best public speaker. Don't get me wrong, he was a great guy - just not the type of person to reinvent a company like Novell.

Novell has some great ideas, better products, and a cohesive strategy. Ron Hovsepian is the type of person to leverage these strengths and bring Novell back to the position of strength it once enjoyed.

Re:It's about damn time...

[soren42]

All I can say is that you hit the nail squarely on the head. If I had some mod points right now, I'd be calling this the most insightful post yet.

Re:It's about damn time...

[demachina]

Ron is also the better choice because he reads and posts on Slashdot even if it is an AC. Thanks for sharing your take on this with us Ron :)

Re:It's about damn time...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi Ron, how are you today ?

Re:It's about damn time...

[yancey]

I'm glad to hear that sort of knowlegable and encouraging talk and am tired of companies who appoint a CEO only hoping to increase the stock price, with no idea of what the company is really about. Novell does have some very good products (eDirectory and Identity Manager are excellent) and moving the existing services from NetWare to Linux, especially taking advantage of 64-bit memory access) should be accelerated (in my opinion). It's obvious that there will never be a 64-bit NetWare and the NetWare platform is being asked to do too much, much more than was originally intended -- causing NetWare to be unstable (many memory leaks), in my opinion.

Moving to Linux and focusing the development resources on providing services is a good strategic direction. I'm also pleased that Novell has decided to make the Linux desktop a viable solution for those who are currently using Windows. Redhat, SuSE, and others have never made Linux as accessible as say Apple has done with Mac OS. I hope Novell will finally be able to take the lead and finally bring Linux desktops into the mainstream (not just in the workplace). When you look around, Windows is the only non-unix-based OS with any significant market share. Resistance is futile, Microsoft! Your days are numbered! Unix will prevail! :-)

Redhat and Novell

[codepunk]

Well at least Novell has a little focus on the desktop they stand half a chance of surviving. RedHat on the other
hand is gonna find themselves in serious trouble quickly I am thinking. When RedHat decided to take focus off their desktop to capitalize on the enterprise market it was a smart thing to do short term to generate more revenue. Now enter ubuntu, hell I don't know many admins or various desktop users that don't use ubuntu for their desktops. The net effect of that is I now prefer it as a serving platform also. RedHat sold their soul for quick money but it is going to kill them in the end. Same goes for Novell, you have to have a good strategy front to back.

Re:Redhat and Novell

[C_Kode]

See, I disagree somewhat. While Redhat's Desktop (see Fedora) isn't as great as Ubuntu or even some others. The one thing it does have is RedHat itself. All I beleive Redhat has to do is start offering corporate support for a version of Fedora on the desktop. Say one version behind current. (FC4) RedHat isn't stupid. They are where they are because they (just like Dell) did what the corporation wants, not what the home desktop user wants. I doubt RedHat couldn't spit out a lean corporate desktop in a short span of time based on Fedora. Hell Fedora is where RHEL gets most of it's features.

Re:Redhat and Novell

[Anonymous Coward]

I know alot of intelligent people that use Linux and not one of them uses Ubuntu because its not that great of a distribution. I shutter just thinking about Ubuntu running on big servers.

Re:Redhat and Novell

[twocents]

I disagree. The Fedora project is well supported and has been promoted by Red Hat corporate in a big way. Some may prefer other distros, but Red Hat hasn't dropped the ball, in my opinion. Also, while you might prefer Ubuntu, you sound as if you set up your own machines at work; this means you would not be a Red Hat customer anyway.

Lastly, there currently is very little money in the Linux desktop market. Red Hat is involved in the enterprise not because it's a short term solution, but because that's where there is 'real' money that allows a company to, well, be a company.

If desktop preference drove server preference, wouldn't everyone be using OS X Server?

Re:Redhat and Novell

[Erwos]

Yeah, just like Debian, Gentoo, Mandrake, and Novell have all killed Red Hat, right? I've been hearing for years about Red Hat's impending demise at the hands of new distro X, and so far, so good - for Red Hat.

-Erwos

Re:Redhat and Novell

[DigitalPenguinDude]

I love SuSE and use both SuSE and Red Hat Enterprise at work. I work for a large defense contractor and we had to throw out SuSE because we could not make it DoD NISPOM chapter 8 compliant. This is required for computers which operate in classified environments. Its failure - PAM configuration and auditing. PAM configurations which support NISPOM 8 would crash on SuSE. The snare kernel (to support auding requirements http://www.intersectalliance.com/projects/Snare/) for SuSE Pro (9.3) is not available. I could not get the patch to apply to thier kernel. RHEL4 could be made compliant, easily. Obviously Red Hat is working closely with customers and SuSE is not.

Re:Redhat and Novell

[LnxAddct]

Fedora isn't as good as Ubuntu? Have you ever used them both? Ubuntu doesn't even come with a damn compiler. Fedora is more polished, has better hardware support & detection, and has better integration with everything (i.e. everything just works). Granted Ubuntu has made leaps in this area recently. The security benefits that Fedora has like SELinux and exec-shield, etc... alone are enough to stay away from Ubuntu. The configuration utilities and everything are better in Fedora. Hell, a lot of the stuff included in Ubuntu was developed by Red Hat engineers. They are both Gnome based distros, and both have decent package management systems, so how exactly are you arguing that Ubuntu is better? It lacks many "standard" features, and many linux users that I know have felt like it was crippled. Some people like a bare bones system where you have to manually install anything useful yourself (Ubuntu makes pretty bad default choices in many areas). With Ubuntu, you always get that, with Fedora you have a *choice* to get that. With Fedora you also have the choice to install everything and the kitchen sink (which I prefer) because some people would rather be productive instead of worrying about some lib or dependency somewhere. So please, tell me how Ubuntu is better than Fedora. Fedora has just as large (if not larger) of an install base, has about an equally active community, etc... So how is it not as good? Seriously, I always hear these small groups of Ubuntu users making all this loud noise, but I've never seen it backed up by anything more than "well apt is better" (which shows their ignorance of yum). Mark Shuttleworth is a business man and a marketing genius, and it seems that all of these Ubuntu users have fallen right into his hands and are preaching what he tells you to preach while he uses you to build brand recognition for his commercial side of the business.
Regards,
Steve

Re:Redhat and Novell

[Etyenne]

Helllllllo ?!? Red Hat already have a desktop product, and always had. Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS -> http://www.redhat.com/rhel/details/clients/

It's based on Fedora Core 3, just like the rest of the RHEL 4.

I hate to be the Red Hat shill, but damn, there's a lot of uninformed opinions about Red Hat going on around here.

Re:Redhat and Novell

[Anonymous Coward]

"hell I don't know many admins or various desktop users that don't use ubuntu for thei desktops"

You don't know many admins then.

You may know many so-called admins, lotta different thing!

Re:Redhat and Novell

[Orange Crush]

Ubuntu's base image is geared for desktop use and to fit on a single CD. User applications are more important than compilers for "Joe Average." Compilers are readily available from the repositories. "sudo apt-get install gcc . . . etc."

Re:Redhat and Novell

[LnxAddct]

Completely understood and agreed. All I'm trying to get at is that the only advantage Ubuntu seems to have is that it fits on one CD. Fedora does everything else it does, and comes with a lot more software if you choose to install it. I just don't get how a distro fitting on one CD makes it better than a distro that comes with more functionality. You can't just say one is better than the other. They are both just as easy to use (for regular users and advanced users), one just comes with more software by default and arguably a little more thorough integration. So making the statement that Ubuntu is better seems ignorant at best. To me a "whatever fits your needs" approach is better. I've honestly given Ubuntu a good long try and many things about it just didn't click well with me. I guess I'm a "power user" so Fedora fits me better, but I guess I'm tired of hearing the Ubuntu camp call out other distros when they have nothing to stand on.
Regards,
Steve

Re:Redhat and Novell

[poofyhairguy82]

They are both Gnome based distros, and both have decent package management systems, so how exactly are you arguing that Ubuntu is better?

The actual systems used to manage packages mean nothing. Deb and RPM are equal. What does matter (and is why I like Ubuntu more and I think its the better of the two) is how many packages a distro has.

Thanks to its forking of Sid, Ubuntu has over 16000 packages in its repos. Fedora at its best has maybe 6000 before a new release (which is then knocked down because the third parties have to repackage each piece of software for each release). That means (unlike when I was a Fedora user) I NEVER have to compile a program ever again. Every program I need is in the Ubuntu repos ready to be installed. THATS why Ubuntu lacks a compiler by default, but Fedora does not. It's because many home Fedora users need one....

slashdot mutant hybrid squirrel-monkey editors...

[Anonymous Coward]

Existing president Ron Hovsepian was names CEO, ... Messman will stay on the board thru the end of October, though.

WTF?
come on you rabid slashdot mutant hybrid squirrel-monkey editors, pleeease do your jobs and correct blatant mistakes, ok?

Software no longer a cash cow.

[LWATCDR]

This is a problem that the software industry has to learn to deal with.
Software doesn't wear out.
Microsoft knows this, that is why they are trying so hard at linking Windows to a single machine. When the computer dies or is replaced you buy a new copy of Windows. How many people have bought WindowsXP over and over?
How many people are still using Office2000 because it really is good enough?
It is getting to the point where new features are not worth cost of buying an upgrade.
In the end software companies will have to become service companies. Red Hat knows this, I think Novell knows this. It is the support contracts stupid. Give them the software but charge them for support.

Re:Software no longer a cash cow.

[hackstraw]

In the end software companies will have to become service companies.

The problem is that even if you pay your hard earned cash for "support", you get some bozo who knows less than I do, and usually the "solution" is for them to blame the hardware or anybody else they can blame.

I find that OSS mailing lists are better in that you are in contact with the actual developers who know the guts of the code in question. AND!! Its free!

Once you pay for "support", the best thing I've ever received is a person who is good at calming me down so I don't kill somebody (possibly them :)

Re:Software no longer a cash cow.

[LWATCDR]

Maybe you should look for a company that offers better support. You can get good support the problem is you have to be willing to pay for it. Don't expect anything but a McDonalds reject in India for support if you bought a $499 Dell. There isn't enough margin to pay for good support people.

Re:Software no longer a cash cow.

[HermanAB]

Windows software does wear out and sometimes rather quickly too.

Re:Software no longer a cash cow.

[Penguin Programmer]

This is true for normal users. However, corporate users are different. Corporate users would rather pay money to hear a voice on the phone at any time of the day or night (even if it's not the _most_ helpful voice) than wait for a great response on a mailing list. Corporate users demand an instant response, and they're more than willing to pay for it.

Re:Software no longer a cash cow.

[infosec_spaz]

Just for the record...I am running Ubuntu Dapper, with OpenOffice :o) Yes, that is me being happy with the decision to move off of M$ OSes.

Re:"can Linux ever be a cash cow?" & real reas

[ilovegeorgebush]

I've been a loyal SuSE Professional customer for years, buying the retail box at retail in a CompUSA, just to make sure that both CompUSA and SuSE get the revenue from it and are encouraged by retail sales. Yeah, I could download and burn the bits for next to nothing, but I am willing to support a worthwhile competitor to Red Hat, just to keep everybody on their toes.
Absolutely!. I wholeheartedly agree with that principal. It is not only important to act in such a way, but it is important for people to understand both the relevance and effect of 'voting' this way.

SUSE is a has been distro

[supersnail]

I recently crashed the disk on my laptop while I was on the road. I needed the machine back again quickly so I got a new hard drive, couldnt get hold of the recovery disks easily so I popped down to the local computer store and had a choice of Mandriva or Suse.
Suse was more expensive but I had previous experience of version 6.0.
On the whole the experience is rather disapointing. The basic Linux stuff works just fine
but the suse extras particularly YAST can be a real pain.
e.g. You double click on an .rpm file and it fires up yast software install which is nice, except that yast cant find the file as it deals in package lists and not rpms.
e.g. It keeps shifting the ethernet and wireless adapters between eth0 and eth1 depending on what was
active last. So you need to keep amending your wireless signon script (which you will need as yast gets you a wireless connection but no DNS server.)

The web site is now just abysmal it is 90% support for Novell legacy products with the suse support hidden in nooks and crannys which is a pity as suse's online support used to be excellent.

Re:SUSE is a has been distro

[molarmass192]

All moot points in SuSE 10.1 since 10.1 ships with Network Manager to handle your wireless sign on scripts and augments vanilla RPM with YUM/RUG. Do you think ANY boxed distro would have fared better ... doubtful!

Re:SUSE is a has been distro

[ehaggis]

I would have to disagree from experience. SuSE provides a great desktop / server distro and once you understand YAST, it becomes your friend. (I am not putting down apt or yum, but YAST is a great tool.) SuSE has been very stable and easy. I find FC2-5 to be buggy and not resolving dependencies correctly. Rarely does this happen in SuSE. Driver support tends to be better with SuSE distros as well (especially wireless networking).

The bigger issue is Novell's marketing. They don't know where they are going with Linux. The start and stop and are not communicating a clear message to IT professionals or the public. I hope this shake up will cause them to focus their energies and become the software company they could be.

Re:SUSE is a has been distro

[filesiteguy]

Bingo! SuSE has always been a good distribution. I didn't use it way back when (I was a Mandrake guy.) but always heard of it.

SUSE 10.1 is a very clean distribution and a worthy successor to the line. Thanks to Andreas, it now includes Novell's ZenWorks updater which takes the pain out of updating software from non-official repositorys (apt, yum, yast, whatever) and is a beautiful feature. I haven't put the system on my notebook (running 10.0) yet, so I don't know if the wireless/wired bug has been fixed.

Yet, Novell has - in my mind - a history of shooting itself in the foot and underperforming in the marketing department. In fact, I cannot even find a marketing banner right now for SUSE 10.1 to display on my websites. I remember when Novell came out with Netware 4.0 as the "great upgrade" to 3.12, which I was installing on many clients' systems. No matter what the actual techical merits of Directory Tree over Bindry, it was destined to fail because Novell did a terrible job of marketing.

Same goes for SUSE - they simply don't know how to market it. Let's just hope they don't kill it off too soon! I might have to switch to FC or Ubuntu or another distro with which I'm unfamiliar.

Cash Cow? It's a Choice

[grahamkg]

I saw the comments re: v10.1, and yes that's a blot. It's only a minor one. I too buy SuSE, and have done so as long at least as long as I've been a /.er. ^_^

If Novell wants to do well, they could look at the Microsoft model for the Windows Logo Program. "Designed to Run SuSE Linux". What a concept. The day machines are sold to Mom and Dad running Linux is the day when it can be a cash cow.

Who Gives a Bleep?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone care enough about this news for it to get anything more than a listing of the title article under an article summary people care about?

Checklist

[Anonymous Coward]

McNealy: check;
Gates: check;
Messman: check;

Jobs: ?

Re:Checklist

[Svartalf]

McNealy: Check...
Messman: Check...
Gates: Nope...He's still Chairman of the BoD. You don't get to count that one- at least not yet.

Jobs...well...Now that he's solidly enmeshed with Disney on their BoD, etc. I don't see him going that way yet or for a while to come.

SGI *not* underperforming

[Anonymous Coward]

SGI is NOT underperforming.

It is bankrupt.

They just sold off their corporate headquarters building to Google.

Re:SGI *not* underperforming

[iggymanz]

wrong, it can underperform as it's stock is being traded pink sheet OTC, right now you can get in at .047 cents per share down 0.003 at market close today

Offtopic, about immigration

[Abreu]

Of course, once Vincente Fox finishes sending every last Mexican over the border illegally, those figures may change a bit.

Its Vicente, not Vincente, btw... And he seems to be exporting our "Spaceship C" population, so dont think theres not a method to his madness...

(Moderators, this is a joke, and not my actual political opinion about my compatriots having to cross deadly extensions of desert, or risk trigger happy commando ranchers just to get a job as a gardener or flipping burgers)

Re:Offtopic, about immigration

[Anonymous Coward]

If you took "care" of all those cheapass americans that hired them instead of trying to build an expensive and hard-to-patrol 700+ mile fence, you'd get the problem solved way better. Though the problem is that many americans would never work for the small wages these employers pay. Though telling the employers that paying minimum wage to their workers would be un-capitalistic hence un-american hence un-patriotic. So, maybe we need to get your name and deport you ...

Re:Offtopic, about immigration

[operagost]

Seems like if our government enforced all the laws, we wouldn't have a problem.

Enforce the minimum-wage law, and citizens will be willing to work the farm jobs. Of course, then even more Mexicans will come looking for highly-paid work, so ...

Enforce the immigration laws, and anyone who sneaks across will be deported and their employer fined.

Wow 10% rise in shares

[DrXym]

Too bad my stock was down 30% before it happened.

Novell Continues to Circle the Drain

[endeavour31]

They have never recovered after the heydays of 3.12 Netware. Failed attempts to provide a business application suite (could anyone have screwed up WordPerfect faster or more completely?) and drawn-out re-issues of updated Netware (some of which had nothing in common stability-wise with 3.12) with some damn good tools never interrupted the downward spiral which has characterized them for the past 10 years. Acquiring Suse brought high hopes but the number of Novell shops has continued to decrease. Just a few isolated islands of zealous CNE's in an otherwise hostile sea. Just pull the damn plug and get it over with. The truly sad fact is that they have nothing compelling to offer businesses.

Re:Novell Continues to Circle the Drain

[yancey]

Novell still has a lot to offer. Just one example is Identity Manager, which synchronizes data between different kinds of systems in "real-time" (event driven). It can handle just about any type of directory service (eDir, AD, or LDAP) and any sort of database (Oracle, MSSQL, MySQL, Sybase, Postgres, etc.). It can synchronize accounts and passwords (bi-directionally with eDir, AD, and NT domains) to many systems, including various operating systems. Infoworld recently ranked it the best such solution available (and that was the older version). The product can also handle provisioning of resources automatically. The tools used to manage this very complex software make it about as simple and easy as it possibly could be. This sort of software is very beneficial to larger companies with many different types of systems that all need to be synchronized in some way.

Re:Novell Continues to Circle the Drain

[gregarican]

True. Novell still has a number of good solutions available. But they consistently seem to fail at marketing them effectively. Back when Netware was a giant in NOS market share they seemed to take comfort in the fact they had a majority of the market and rest on their laurels. Their solution was higher priced than other competitors and before long a cheaper and improving Windows NT NOS began to eat away at their customer base. Although they have made attempts at getting another inroad into the big boys' playground they are still on the outside looking in. It's a shame since they do still have some products worthy of merit.

Re:Novell Continues to Circle the Drain

[endeavour31]

That is why I used the word "compelling". Novell needs to play catch up and to entice business to migrate onto their platforms. A few neat and useful products will not do this and if they truly wish to compete with Linux, Windows, etc in the data center they had better prove why such a migration makes business sense. Unless, that is, they focus on tools and become an application vendor instead of a Server OS company.

I am not saying their software is useless, just that the company is becoming increasingly so since it cannot successfully bundle their NOS with these tools. Perhaps they should just market applications since they are going nowhere on servers and on the desktop.

Shark attack

[frenchguy73]

Hah hah, this is really funny. Hovsepian is such a shark, he's been manipulating people at all level for this purpose only. Not that Jack was any better (he was clueless about the product, direction and Linux) but the new CEO is only interested in his own carreer, not the company, nor its employees. Novell is even more borked now than it was after the Suse acquisition (an all time high). After the tumultuous Suse/Ximian in fighting (KDE vs Gnome, SLUX vs Groupwise vs Hula, Red Carpet vs whatever the Suse thingie is called, SUSE management vs Ximian management), it's a new year of failure for Novell. I hope Mono & Hula get out unscathed.

The OS will never really be profitable

[belal1]

Look at microsoft, they are making profit from the other software they make besides windows. The OS is just a platform to deliver the actual products. Linux won't ever be profitable, only it's services will --like how redhat offers the support service.

A positive outlook for RedHat from Barron's

[lotzmana]

Very pertinent to this discussion is a piece from the financial newspaper Barron's which was posted yesterday. It is a positive review of RedHat's business model as one being based on subscriptions and not one time sales. Here is an excerpt from the article:

"But I think the best opportunity is to target companies offering software as a service."

Worldwide software sales should grow 8% this year, which, while down from 8.7% last year, nonetheless proves that "there is clear evidence of pent-up demand for new software technology," says Joanne Correia, a software analyst with Gartner Inc. in Stamford, Conn.

But software spending increasingly goes to the top four vendors -- IBM, Microsoft, SAP and Oracle -- whose combined share of global software spending jumped from 33.5% in 2000 to 36.8% last year, estimates Charles Di Bona with Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. in New York.

So to get a leg up, small young vendors are changing the rules of engagement. They are eschewing the multimillion-dollar one-time contracts for software and instead letting corporate buyers pay for product updates and support on a year-by-year basis.

"We're seeing a shift in the economic balance," in software sales, says Correia's colleague, Simon Hayward. "From this up-front cost of software to an annuity model, with money shifting to firms that are service providers."

Of Red Hat's $278 million in sales last year, 82% was from subscriptions, which the company realizes over the life of a contract of one to three years. Oracle still gets over a third of its sales the old way.

Red Hat's sales should rise 35% this year to $375 million, far above the 15% rate expected for Oracle, according to estimates from Goldman Sachs analyst Rick Sherlund.

Subscriptions should make Red Hat's sales -- and its customers' expenses -- more predictable, which is good.

"You're able to match your revenue model to the way that you provide that product to your customer," notes Ursillo.

"If you are constantly providing them with value as opposed to a one-shot deal, then you can charge them on a regular basis," he says.

What's more, by acquiring subscribers, rather than one-time buyers, Red Hat can milk its customer base by offering more and more new programs.

In addition to the Linux operating system, Red Hat now provides software to let companies take transactions over the Internet.

"They are in the first inning of a very big ballgame," says Steven Ashley, an analyst with Robert W. Baird & Co. in Milwaukee.

---

Re:"can Linux ever be a cash cow?" & real reas

[kimvette]

Actually the slowness in YaST (in my experience) is that it's set to refresh installation sources EVERY time you go into the package manager, Disable the automatic installation source refresh then it will speed right up by virtue of not having to parse the YaST repository every damn time it's launched. The down side is that you will have to occasionally manually refresh, particularly when new KDE releases are made available.

If you think 10.1 was bad, have you actually tried Samba or Ximian Evolution with the Exchange connector on an out-of-the-box 10.0 install? Now THAT was painful. THAT was evidence of a total lack of regression testing. How bad is it when a networking company totally breaks KDE/samba integration AND break their flagship email client?

YaST is slow? That's a minor inconvenience. I can see that slipping by their QA department when the YaST repositories are local.

Not being able to join a Windows domain or browse windows shares? Not being able to connect to an Exchange server? That was inexcusable. Both work right out of the box in 10.1 so I'd say that it is a vast improvement.

Linux can be a real cash cow for Novell.

[miffo.swe]

I have been implementing Novell Open Enterprise Linux, Zenworks for Linux, Groupwise for Linux and now i need a client for linux to implement the rest in Linux. Novell is making a huge enormous mistake if they dont release a Linux client for Redhat, Ubuntu etc real soon. Novells products sits like a perfect glue in a mixed enviroment of Windows, Mac, Linux and other OS.

My point is they can very well fill a void in the linux ecosystem if they try to play along and dont try to tie people into SUSE in every aspect.

Blame the ones responsible, please

[hesiod]

> It looks like [Messman's] been blamed for Novell's poor performance in the Linux space versus Red Hat.

Well, I'll bet they were hoping their GroupWise software being ported to Linux would have helped. And it would have, had they done it properly. I tried three times to get that damned thing running on SuSE Enterprise 9, and it's the biggest pain in the ass. I've set up Email servers before with no problem, this was absolutely horrid. At first I blamed the product in general, but after installing it on Windows 2003 I realized that it was actually incomplete! The NetWare client for it does not exist (at least on any of the CDs they gave us -- which were incomplete in & of themselves), and trying to actually manage the thing can be a huge pain in the ass.

They still sell it at full price and still charge $300 for a single support case... It's like MS taking Vista as it is now and selling it as a fully-working product. It is not, and I would have been highly pissed off had our software license not covered the GroupWise software for whichever of the three platforms (Lin, Win, NetWare) we ended up using.

So anyway, unless Messman forced the product out before it was done, it was not his fault. Of course, Novell does more than just Email servers, so this may be only a very small part of it.

Re:Blame the ones responsible, please

[miffo.swe]

Actually, i have just setup Groupwise on Linux and i too had a hard time. Im perfectly capable of setting up sendmail, postfix, Zimbra, Hula and even the horrid beast Horde. Once i had figured out everything it was easy to setup but boy, that learning curve sure is vertical on groupwise. I think the reason its hard is that its so extremely flexible. Now that ive learnt how to setup groupwise on linux its pretty easy and i can make it do pretty much whatever i want. The best part is that its very lean on CPU and memory. One Groupwise server can easily handle ten times more user than a Exchange server on the same hardware.

About the client, if you mean eDir its on the eDir Unix/Solaris/Linux cd. Its avaliable for download from Novell. Clients for users exist for Java, Linux, Windows and a very good webmail.

The only thing i think they could do better is to make the installation program easier and better at choosing defaults for a clueless user.

Re:Blame the ones responsible, please

[hesiod]

By client, I am referring to the "Netware Client" which, in Windows, replaces the windows login box ("Press Ctrl-Alt-Del"). That way you can just log into the server with eDirectory credentials and do whatever you need to do... I suppose it's not a huge deal, but it's just one of many details.

Re:Blame the ones responsible, please

[miffo.swe]

Well then we are on the same level completely. They have NCL (Novell Linux Client), now in version 1.2. Sadly some schmucks at Novell have decided to make it SUSE only. Thats a huge mistake and many lost sales if that idiocy continue. I see Novells products as perfect glue in a mixed enviroment. Limiting clients to SUSE takes that advantage away for any company who uses Linux because they most definately have more than one distribution inhouse.

Horrible

[T1 Man]

Jack Messman and Joe Tibbetts are going to go down in history for bringing linux to the masses, the SUSE 10.x release with xGL is going to REVOLUTIONIZE how people perceive and use linux. Not to mention all the work thats been done with application integration!! One little delay in release due to the NEW package manager and heads roll... its sad really.. that the Novel board cant see whats about to happen. Hard work really does pay off, and these guys have been working HARD. In a couple years imo there will be Novell and Apple OSes.. Vista is going to be a joke compared to both, and XP is going to die.

Re:Horrible

[soren42]

Jack Messman ... [is] going to go down in history for bringing linux to the masses

I'm sorry, but that's crap. Do you know these people? Do you follow Novell closely? If anyone deserves credit for bringing "Linux to the Masses" within Novell, it's Chris Stone, Nat Friedman, Eric Anderson, Ron Hovespian, and many others - but certainly not Jack Messman.

Re:Horrible

[q3ctf4]

WOW, They got deleted (404 Page Not Found) pretty fast, as if they were a virus. http://www.novell.com/company/bios/jmessman.html http://www.novell.com/company/bios/jtibbetts.html At least Microsoft has the courtesy to add the word "Former" next to their name instead of deleting them. Take Martin Taylor for example: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/martintayl or/default.mspx

What I find amazing

[dethtoll]

... is that in that conference call discussion about 'headlights' and sales improvements, not one mention of Novell's marketing strategies was uttered.

They still have not figured out how to sell a product. Or that a four-page list of SKUs with meaningless buzzword acronyms for names DOES NOT constitute a Product.

I know Novell stuff fairly well. I'm a fan of both Linux and Novell, and I represent a fairly typical prospective customer as a mid-sized manufacturing company. And even I am having a hard time determining how best to approach the OES suite, if at all.

I can say this: Novell's value to me is not as an OS vendor. It's as an NOS application vendor. Directory, Policy, Auth, File, Print. Give me these, cleanly, on _my_ *NIX server, and then get the hell out of the way please.

really?

[Mastedon]

Novell? They're still around? Who knew...

Re:slashdot mutant hybrid squirrel-monkey editors.

[PeelBoy]

Why? Do your epileptic seizures kick in when you see a typo or an abbreviated word?

Sigh..... Messman Mark II

[segedunum]

During Thursday's conference call, Hovsepian said that Novell could win more Linux customers on the back of the launch of Microsoft's Vista operating system. "There's the possibilities of customers using us for desktop Linux in certain segments of their business. We've been getting real positive information back on that," said Hovsepian.

This is not what Novell's business is, not where their money is coming from and not what they need to focus on if they want to survive at all. Messman's successor pulls one right out of Messman's buzzword laden phrase book.

Why get something for free ...

[Anonymous Coward]

when you can pay for it?

Most large organisations I've worked with follow this approach. They'd rather pay for something then get it for free, because that's how they're used to doing business. Free stuff just makes them suspicious. This applies to software as much as anything else.

Re:"can Linux ever be a cash cow?" & real reas

[Anonymous Coward]

What the original poster meant by "YOU" was YaST Online Update,
and not the general slowness of YaST.
YOU is broken in SuSE 10.1 - normally, under 10.0, a software fix
would be delivered via a 'patch rpm' which was downloaded and
installed by YOU. Instead, under SuSE 10.1, you have to download the
complete RPM, at the cost of increased bandwidth usage and time on
the incumbent system to install. For an individual on a broadband
modem, it might not be an issue. For someone who has to pay by the
kilobyte for a dial-up link, it is.

But, more to the point, there are a bunch of other things that are
simply out of date - hplip, wine, k3b, etc. - that the integration
crew refused to even try to include, even though it would have been
trivial for them to do so. The cited components are out of date
by well over one or two dot releases, and were in BL9, long before
code freeze. How YaST performs compared to its competition is, at this
point, irrelevant because it doesn't currently function properly, period.

At this point, I think SuSE and Novell ought to scrap 10.1 and issue
a 10.2 that's a fixed 10.1 without any major enhancements (with up to
date components, especially the kernel) and then worry about fancy new
stuff in 10.3 or 11.0. Quality should come first, in any event.

Novell gets new CEO - goto 10

[Anonymous Coward]

It's amazing that no-one has used the obvious metaphor involving "deckchairs" and "The Titanic"

The root of the problem is the Novell board, and the obsession with Management By Objectives. This guarantees that only ideas and innovation come from the top, and clear opportunities for revenue growth are deliberately ignored because they do not form part of a manager's objectives.

A former manager remarked to me that every first week in a quarter was taken up by the "QBR" (Quarterly Business Review). This was where the managers tried to find excuses for not fulfilling the targets of the previous quarter, while at the same time not running the business because they're doing the QBR.

QBRs and other shibboleths of MBO including all sorts of metrics that crush innovation and longterm planning in favor of targets. This produces an extreme CYA mentality. The guy at the top therefore receives good news and not bad, and cannot correct imbalances and problems because everyone to trying to not have the finger of blame upon them.

Unless Hovsapien starts challenging that mindset, preferably by getting everyone to read W Edwards Deming, then the result will be inevitable and yet another CEO will get stabbed in the back, rather than the Novell Board actually accepting responsibility and resigning.

In case this is too highbrow for Slashdot: Novell is FUCKED.

The problem is..

[Trendkill_84]

where is the PR machine? sure, WE know novell has linux, and WE know why linux is good, but where the heck is the PR for this product?

the reason why microsoft does so well has nothing to with their distrobution or the actual product, it has everything to do with getting the product out there, SHOWING people why they should buy linux.

i mean god, sure, ive seen advertisements for novell suse in computer magazines, slashdot etc, but what about at football stadiums (microsoft have a advertisement at the melbourne cricket ground, our biggest stadium, stating "microsoft windows xp: be whatever you want, be loyal" etc..) and places like shops where people would just wonder what the pc product is that promises stability, easy use, and why do they have a lizard as a icon?

in other words, the reason why novell isnt doing well with selling linux is that they are targeting the wrong audience and need to get their name and brand out there, simple as that. microsoft have that downpat.

Novell gets new CEO - goto 10

[DiamondGeezer]

I posted this as anonymous by mistake:-

It's amazing that no-one has used the obvious metaphor involving "deckchairs" and "The Titanic"

The root of the problem is the Novell board, and the obsession with Management By Objectives. This guarantees that only ideas and innovation come from the top, and clear opportunities for revenue growth are deliberately ignored because they do not form part of a manager's objectives.

A former manager remarked to me that every first week in a quarter was taken up by the "QBR" (Quarterly Business Review). This was where the managers tried to find excuses for not fulfilling the targets of the previous quarter, while at the same time not running the business because they're doing the QBR.

QBRs and other shibboleths of MBO including all sorts of metrics that crush innovation and longterm planning in favor of targets. This produces an extreme CYA mentality. The guy at the top therefore receives good news and not bad, and cannot correct imbalances and problems because everyone to trying to not have the finger of blame upon them.

Unless Hovsapien starts challenging that mindset, preferably by getting everyone to read W Edwards Deming, then the result will be inevitable and yet another CEO will get stabbed in the back, rather than the Novell Board actually accepting responsibility and resigning.

In case this is too highbrow for Slashdot: Novell is FUCKED.

Milking the public cow

[ajaypal]

Microsoft kicked it out in server market, then again m$ kicked it out in word processors/ office suites markets (remember wordperfect takeover and finally sale by novell) and it is unable to match even redhat for linux (even after takeover of suse linux).

Milking a public cow ain't going to get you loads of milk, many are in queue or are doing it right now. But doing some value addition will, maybe something like add some ice and water to sell milk shakes to make profits even ice creams is a good idea.

But as far as I can see still their strategy is GNU/ Linux and related technologies, but they have a lot of competition, redhat, IBM, and a little bit of HP and many small time integrators

And compare this with what balmer said once:

"We don't have a monopoly. We have market share. There's a difference. -- Steve Ballmer"

here the actual thing is monopoly and not market share not even technology. Somehow use technology/ market share whatever to build monopoly and get rich.

Don't be silly.

[jotaeleemeese]

The best piece of technlogy (any kind of technology) requires support.

Your inuendo is frankly puerile.

Novell client for linux

[welshwaterloo]

http://sourceforge.net/projects/novelclient/

HTH

The dinos are gone, some crocs are left.

[jotaeleemeese]

To compare Sun with Dell or even HP is ludicrous.

The depth and width of what Sun can offer is not even attempted by Dell, HP makes money from printers from goodnes sakes....

Re:The dinos are gone, some crocs are left.

[Ryan Amos]

Right, the point being that customers are increasingly caring less about what Sun can offer them than price. The business model for servers is quickly becoming the same as the one for printers (industrial laser printers, not the cheap inkjet ones. That's the home PC market.)

Dell and HP are eating Sun for lunch right now at their own game (selling server hardware,) so I do consider it a valid comparison.

Not just Corporate Users

[LWATCDR]

Just about any user that depends on a piece of software to run their business will feel the same. Be it a restaurant, doctors office, or a one of those self storage places. They all use vertical market software and probably pay for support.
The problem with main stream software developers is that they depended on increased growth. What happens when everyone that needs a copy of word has one?
Software companies need to move from the idea of sales as profit base to service as a profit base.