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Library Chief Criticized for Requiring Subpoena
sudnshok writes "Hasbrouck Heights (NJ) Library Director Michele Reutty is under fire for refusing to give police library circulation records without a subpoena. Her lawyer explained, 'Reutty did the right thing... At no time did Michele Reutty say to any police officer or anybody else that she would not give the information if it was properly requested.' However, borough labor lawyer Ellen Horn, who also represented the library trustees, said Reutty was 'more interested in protecting' her library than helping the police. 'It was an absolute misjudgment of the seriousness of the matter,' Horn said."
protecting privacy is not "cool" any more...
sad day
FTA: the mayor called it "a blatant disregard for the Police Department"
When the police are breaking the laws (or sneaking around them) who do we ask to protect us?
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
"I followed the law. And because I followed the law, at the end of the day, the policemen's case is going to hold strong. Nobody is going to sue the library and nobody is going to sue the municipality of Hasbrouck Heights because information was given out illegally."
That's actually the best argument she can make. Any case prosecutors will have against this man will be much stronger because the library complied with the applicable law(s) when responding to a police request. What if that evidence had been thrown out because it was illegally, or at least questionably, obtained?
Teachers and librarians are the real heroes. They change the world without ever kicking down a door.
Faith: n. -- That human impulse that drives them to steal appliances when the power goes out
violation of fundamential civil right principles is far more heinous a crime
than any child molestation, rape, murder, or terrorist act.
but then, the population of that country called USA really doesn't give a damn
about that thing called liberty it gives drone-like lip service too.
never did really.
And journalists rarely let facts get in the way of a good story. So, I would caution people to not assume everything printed is correct. Nonetheless, to whatever degree it is true that a librarian was asked to break the law by the police, the librarian was in the right to refuse. She is likely to be punished, possibly severely, regardless. I doubt the city or the police will forget in a hurry, no matter who was in the right, and that should be the real point of concern. When revenge becomes more important than upholding the law, there is no law. It is a troubling cultural divide by zero error.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
are you serious?? You think the entire law of due process and the requiring of warrants should be overturned because of this case?
i never really thought having warrants and keeping the police in check was a bad thing....
'more interested in protecting' her library than helping the police.
You don't say? That's precisely why that rule exists in the first place! Fucking morons.
1. You're an idiot.
When everyone gets together to "help" you have mob rule, riots, and other nasty things that generally follow the rule that the intelligence of a group is inversely proportional to the size of the group.
Secondly, you're exactly right that it is not her library, it's the cities and more importantly the patrons library: And it's also their data. It's not her place to give it to whom she deems may see it. That decision has been passed on to judges, hence requiring the police to ask one for a warrant.
If we go and throw out logically reasoned laws everytime a kid is in trouble from some jerk we'll throw the law to the wind and have a "society" of chaotic anarchy, no offense to anarchists.
It's called "due process". Or maybe you prefer the cops play judge/jury/executioner and shoot anyone who has checked out that library book just to be on the safe side.
Please refrain from reading anything ever again. In future, if you ever require an opinion please contact your local law enforcement authority and you will be issued one in due course. Do not give out this opinion to others as a) they don't want to hear it and b) they will source their own opinions from wherever they see fit.
Yours truly,
George Bush,
Prezident of the United Satest.
I hate printers.
From TFA:
Borough labor lawyer Ellen Horn, who also represented the library trustees, said Reutty was "more interested in protecting" her library than helping the police.
"It was an absolute misjudgment of the seriousness of the matter," Horn said at Tuesday's meeting.
What utter bullshit. She doesn't work for the police, and it is her job and her legal mandate to protect the privacy of people who check out books from her library.
These "borough officials" are nothing but a bunch of grandstanding politician assholes trying to make their careers by harassing a librarian who was doing her job the way it should be done. They should all be voted out of office.
A quick googling reveals that you can send your thanks and support to reutty@BCCLS.ORG.
I already have.
(Does anyone else just love that some cases are too important for proper legal procedure? They should have gotten warrants in the first place...)
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
If the police can commit crimes, so can the rest of us!
Warrants are there for a reason.
What if the dangerous paedophile actually managed, through hard work and dedication, to get a job on the police force? Sure, the overwhelming majority of police are good, but it's definitely possible for ONE bad cop to get through. Should he be able to get your child's records without anyone even looking over his work to determine if it's 'warranted'?
Food for thought.
She's obstructing justice, IMHO. By the time that warrant is issued, the lead could be cold. Did she consult the trustees? If it's the law, it's a law that should be amended.
I could maybe see your point if this were a case of a missing person, but how could the lead go cold? The information isn't going anywhere, and if you rush something like this you're apt to get slick lawyers unraveling the entire case. The law is fine, it's sloppy police work that needs to be fixed.
When will our legislature take a stand against these domestic book-huggers?
No, that's bullpoop. The police could have come up with the subpoena in minutes if there was sufficient cause. The woman in question is NOT in the position to make the policy decision that the information she could provide would be material in the case. That's a question for a judge.
In September, I ran the datacenter in the Houston Astrodome during the Hurricane Katrina disaster. The organization I was working for (a large international organization that provides relief in disasters, hint hint) keeps data on the people who seek help private. In fact, that's their mantra. I received visits from no less than FOUR Department of Homeland Security deputies who wanted to get their hands on the refugee data, purportedly to track sexual predators. Some of these requests were polite and some were not. I've encountered similar requests within the last year for data in my corporate job as well.
It's my observation that these people will ALWAYS appeal to our base fear when they encounter barriers to getting the data they want, knowing that no one wants to aid and abet "Sexual Predators" or "Terrorists". That's why the due process laws, calling for subpoenas are in place here in the US (but for how long?) I can only hope that we can come to our senses and end this gross abuse of power. . . . Has anyone else had similar experiences? How come we never really hear much about it?
Unless you are "fighting terror", an improperly conducted search will get thrown out by the courts and then the "bad guys" usually get a walk.
Why should there be an exception for "fighting terror?"
It is the mindset though. Look for more and more things to fall under the concept of 'fighting terror' as a way to get around due process and the Bill of Rights. I remember hearing some guy on NPR say some members of LA gangs were 'street terrorists'.
Reutty was 'more interested in protecting' her library [and its users] than helping the police
I think I'd actually be proud if someone said something like that about me.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
http://www.hasbrouck-heights.nj.us/#Municipal%20Ph one%20Numbers
Sounds like fun to me.
If the police were hot on a pedophile or sex offender, they would have been able to get their warrant in no time. This is a case of the police trying to be above the law and being sore because they were put in their place.
Also it's a public library, and a public place, and I would hope that a librarian would use her power to protect the public. We have a due process for a reason. Any potential "sex offender" has rights too. Innocent until proven guilty.
hell in a handbasket I tell you...
Those who would sacrifice liberty over security, deserve neither security nor liberty.
-Benjamin Franklin
and that leaves exactly 1% that are bad.
How is she suppose to tell the difference? Or is she suppose to just let them all have access to our records without proper paper work? There's a reason for the proper paper work. So that way the corrupt cops can't swing by after work still in uniform and decide to see what someone is doing because they're planning something devious.
The problem isn't her. The problem is that the police cannot obtain a warrant fast enough. Just because *that* is a problem, doesn't mean the solution is to allow police access to records without having to get a warrant.
Police are people too. They're not impervious to committing crimes themselves. She's protecting the well being and privacy of individuals.
Alleged sex offender. Allegedly scoping out your child. What's stopping them from pulling YOUR library records because they don't like you, and making up some story to throw you behind bars. This dude was 23, probably was a skateboarder or something and said "lick me where I pee" but the police wants to get rid of such a trouble maker so they just pin sexual comments on him. Maybe the girl threw something at his car, or maybe she's lying. God knows 12 year olds NEVER lie. I don't see how someone's library records could possibly stop a life or death situation. You see that stupid crap in the movies all the time but that doesn't make it real. Real police work is tedious and exhaustive. It has to be that way to protect the innocent. That is what sets America apart from the rest of the world. Now if a bunch of Redneck cops want to flex on the constitution, and then COMPLAIN that the librarian didn't LET THEM? Shit, it's every citizen's duty to make sure that the constitution is followed and to speak out if it isn't. For the protection of future generations. But I forgot, only "lefties" think about the future.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
that the ones supposed to UPHOLD the Law are the first ones wanting to BREAK the Law.
Second - the Library director did the right thing. Why? Because if the information she gave was obtained without "due process", the pedophile could get free because of this. Now who would be the one to blame? The Library. Wonderful.
I'd pretty much tell the stupid police to just do their job and STFU.
What about the privacy of the people who didn't commit the crime ? What if the next step from the police was to search every house in the city and then arrest the person who had this book, would you be up for that ?
P.S. Every major city will be holding a book burning this July 4th in celebration of our Independence; our Independence from free-thought that does not consist of A. Jesus or B. NASCAR.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
The problem here is the reaction of her superiors on the library board who apparently believed she should have given the police whatever they wanted without question.
Technoli
Far from being an "... absolute misjudgment of the seriousness of the matter", this librarian correctly realized that it was a serious matter which she was not qualified or empowered to judge. She deferred to the courts, which are only appropriate and authorized arbiter of police search powers.
Bravo, Ms. Reutty!
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
Of course they did. Journalists file FOIA requests all day long, and have to wade through mountains of forms to get information that should be freely available to any citizen, if the governement wasn't fricking corrupt. Cops are supposed to have to do the same thing for data that isn't freely available. That's the law. And after filing dozens of FOIA requests for police reports, you bet your ass they jumped on it when the cops tried to pretend like they were above the law.
On top of that journalists are in a position where they can end up in posession of information that the government wants to know, and unlike librarians, they don't have the luxury of giving that info up if they want to continue in their careers. Strong and respected privacy laws are very much in their self interest.
And finally, journalists tend to be literate library affectionados, and, as such, are well disposed toward spunky, privacy-respecting librarians.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
In this drama, the police use illegal means to trap potential criminals.
None of the police are ever criticised or punished in any meaningful way for breaking the rules. The drama shows the rights of innocent people being routinely and egreiously trampled upon.
I see it as the BBC portraying what some people in government would like. No restraint on the police, no rules of evidence, no need, in fact for actual evidence -- just lock up (or better still, shoot) the people you think are the "bad guys". How many people will watch the drama and later think it is OK for the police to take such actions becasue "they have seen it on TV"?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
If she hadn't forced them to follow the letter of the law, whoever this person was that broke the law initially could have turned around and used the illegal obtaining of his records in court to get the case thrown out.
That exact scenario has happened before, where these small-town cops get worked up, don't follow the rules, and it ends up hurting what could have been a simple, open-shut case if they had just had patience. I really wish I could post a link to the details (I've spent a lot of time in Jersey Boroughs) but usually there is little to no public record, things get lost, or safety nets are put in place.
Its really really sad actually.
1 (short ton / firkin) = 89.1432354 slugs / keg
The police are out there busting their hump, protecting you and me. 99% of them are good
Apparently you've never been pulled over by a cop in Georgia.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
As a Lifelong resident, I have to agree. From local goverment to the state house, this state S*cks. As soon as my kids graduate, it's off to another state that lets me own a gun with out a hassle, and to let me shoot off a couple of bottle rockets to celebrate this COUNTRY's Independance, from the vey TYRANNY we are facing today.
Let's tell these sociopathic assholes what we think of their attempts to trample on our rights.
e w_Jerseyf o.html
HASBROUCK HEIGHTS NJ - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbrouck_Heights,_N
General Info - http://www.hasbrouck-heights.nj.us/general/townin
Mayor Ronald R. Jones
Borough of Hasbrouck Heights
320 Boulevard
Hasbrouck Heights, NJ 07604 USA
Phone: (201)-288-4111
Police Chief Michael Colaneri
Hasbrouck Heights (Bergen County)
248 Hamilton Avenue
Hasbrouck Heights, NJ 07604-1811
Phone: (201) 288-1000
Fax: (201) 288-1691
Bergen County Prosecutor's Office
10 Main Street
Hackensack, NJ 07601
Mon-Fri (201) 646-2300
After Hours (201) 646-2700
Also let's show Ms. Reutty our support!
Michele Reutty, Director
Free Public Library of Hasbrouck Heights
320 Boulevard, Hasbrouck Heights NJ 07604
E-mail: reutty@bccls.org
TEL: 201-288-0488
FAX: 201-288-6653
i am going to give her a call when i get done w/ work.
i gaurantee if the people involved get just a few dozen calls or emails it will make them think twice. please take a moment to show your anger and/or support.
Why should there be an exception for "fighting terror?"
It is the mindset though. Look for more and more things to fall under the concept of 'fighting terror' as a way to get around due process and the Bill of Rights. I remember hearing some guy on NPR say some members of LA gangs were 'street terrorists'.
There shouldn't be an exception for "fighting terror" However since the middle of September 2001 the PATRIOT Act has legitimized many exceptions to due process in order to help the police of our nation "fight terror"
That is why you see so many in the enforcement business trying to get all kinds of different crime labeled as terrorism. That way they can just go arrest and hold people without having to justify their suspicions before the courts.
Calm down Skippy. I know there's an almost uncontrollable reaction to do something here, but if the librarian had given up the lending lists, that idiot would have gotten off with any $100 dollar lawyer-- likely a public defender (who you, and I, have already paid for) could have gotten the case thrown out because of tainted evidence.
We are still a nation of laws. This isn't an Amber Alert-- the girl was home, unharmed, with her parents. This librarian made it possible for the police to gather useful, and legal, evidence to prosecute the bastard. I hope he rots in jail, but don't blame the librarian. She's doing her job, and keeping the local cops from blowing the case.
Everything I've ever learned the hard way was based on a statistically invalid sample.
If it's that serious, you want a trail of evidence and iron-clad law-abiding police searches and questioning to bring you through prosecution. The fact that the police failed to get a subpeona for a situation where one would likely be needed (they wouldn't have to use it right away, only if the librarian put up a fight).
I applaud this librarian for forcing the police to do their job. Why, if everyone did this, we might actually have a trust-worthy government! Oh, the horror!
The article mentions that reps from a library association went to a meeting to show support for Reutty, but I think it might help if concerned citizens from around the country let their voice be heard.
Hasbrouck Heights Library website
Here is a list of staff, with the board of trustees at the bottom. I can't find individual contact lists for them, but sending snail mail to the library and putting their name would probably work.
It seems that most any time privacy issues are called into question, one group always retreats to the "how dare you interfere" concept. They consider the rules irrlelvent because "the good guys would never abuse their power". If it were up to them it would be a police state, where the police did not have to follow the same laws the rest of us do. But they forget, this is the exact reason we have those laws, to protect the people from abuse by the government. In a perfect world where the government was just and wise, those such laws would not be necessary. But the government is oftentimes neither just nor wise, and in that case I prefer to have the law on my side to protect me from the abuse.
Stripping the people of the protection from persicution to make the job of law enforcement simpler is proteting people's fredom and rights by taking them away.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
If ANY law enforcement agency shows up and asks for anything, they had better have a warrant from a court in hand. These National Security Letters are bullshit and I wipe my ass with it after I scan and post it right here on slashdot.org, infowars.com, rense.com or whomever else would take it. Here that facist aggressor of the state. Fuck you. Yes this will drop the karma points, but I am damn tired of seeing facist police scum jackboots trying to set up a police state using secrecy and fear. I ain't scared of you people.
Apparently the police didn't think it was even serious enough to bother getting a subpoena.
Certain facts were presented, no matter the original spin. The police did not have a subpeona, and the chief of the library did not give them the information requested.
The facts are what we are cheering. It doesn't matter whether she helped an alleged pedophile get away or not. (She didn't.) She helped protect liberty. That's more than most of us do in a lifetime.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Last I checked, the little girl wasn't asking to see the library patron records, nor should she have the right to. What rights of the little girl are being violated by requiring that the police have a warrant?
"Reutty was 'more interested in protecting' her library than helping the police."
errr... call me stupid, but isn't that what her job supposed to be, protecting the library? I just don't get it... If she wanted to help the police, she'd be a neighborhood watch woman.
"Don't let fools fool you. They are the clever ones."
Citizens of the United States of America, you do realize you live in a fascist state, don't you?
The law is in place, she was justified in her technicalities, but she violated the spirit of law enforcement.
What the hell is "the spirit of law enforcement"? "Law enforcement" first and foremost requires the agents in charge of executing that duty to *follow the law*, right? The separation of powers spelled out in the Constitution isn't some 200+ year old idea implemented just to inconvenience the police, you know.
You should probably read up on cases such as Warren v. D.C. and Castle Rock v. Gonzales that clearly establish that the police have no duty to help or protect anyone. If they have no legal duty to help anyone, exactly how is anyone obligated to break the law to help them? Often, the police aren't even aware what the law is. I don't say that to belittle them, just that it's a fact - just this week, I spent about half an hour talking with a local cop about state concealed weapons permits. He was a nice enough guy, but he had absolutely no clue as to what the state requirements for obtaining one were, where weapons are and aren't allowed, which weapons are and aren't legal, etc.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
"If the police aren't abusing their powers and have a legal claim to the information then what's the problem here?"
That's what a warrant or a subpoena is for, establishing that the police have a legal claim to the information.
-HT
Library records which contain the names or other personally identifying details regarding the users of libraries are confidential and shall not be disclosed except in the following circumstances:
a. The records are necessary for the proper operation of the library;
b. Disclosure is requested by the user; or
c. Disclosure is required pursuant to a subpena [sic -- probably transcription error in the database] issued by a court or court order.
L. 1985, c. 172, s. 2, eff. May 31, 1985.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
Following the law is not a "misjudgement".
From the article, "But borough officials say Reutty intentionally stonewalled the police investigation by putting the library first.".
The subpeona has to be specific about what is to be seized. The librarian did what was proper.
The instrument was not license for a 'fishing expedition'. When the police returned with a more
specific instrument, she complied with the instrument.
This is how our system is supposed to work. The police were negligent OR STUPID. They ask
for subpoena's ALL the time. They should know that they need to be specific. Can you say "Keystone Cops employ Barney Fife"? Sure you can.
As stated previously, the city idiots are politicians, with NO CLUE. They were, after all, voted into office.
The inclusion of the city or Libraries lawyer, would most likely have not lead to ANY more protection to the
citizen's rights. Sadly, these same people have been around for many years, and have had the opportunity to
read newspapers that have published cases like this before. They did not read them or convienently forgot the precedents already in the law.
Pity.
Considering the direction laws are headed in the United states in this past decade, I would beg differ (sad day indeed.)
I would say given the direction of laws in the US, they are in fact designed to protect us, from everything including ourselves.
What is Utopia, absolute freedom, or absolute security? Civilizations volley back-and-forth between the two, neither ever giving people what they want.
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
That's exactly right. The criminal has no right to privacy. But in this case the police were inquiring about a person suspected to be a criminal, not about a proven criminal. The police have to prove to a judge that a certain person is criminal, then they can get a warrant, and then they can get the info on that person's library habits.
Otherwise, if you do not follow this procedure, you might as well throw out the presumption of innocence and assume everybody is a criminal.
You need to install an RTFM interface.
There is no single legal argument that can put this librarian at fault for her actions under current law.
'nuf said.
(fuck the patriot act anyway)
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
NO DIRECT EMAIL TO MAYOR OR COUNCIL MEMBERS
Cops & Politicians
From Hasbrouck Heights,NJ website
http://www.hasbrouck-heights.nj.us/index.html/
Chief of Police Hasbrouck Heights email: chief_colaneri@hhpd.com
Borough of Hasbrouck Heights email: info@hasbrouck-heights.nj.us
Librarian & Reporter
Michele Reutty (Super-Librarian) email: reutty@bccls.org
Merry Firschein (Intrepid Reporter) firschein@northjersey.com
The only thing new in this world is the history that you don't know.[Harry Truman]
"The girl told police the man was carrying a library book with a certain title. The next day, borough police detectives asked Reutty to tell them who took out that book."
There is NO WAY anyone could have determined IF THAT BOOK came from THAT library. Not with the data given in the
article. Pervs would hide using books as mis-direction. The 'book' could have come from ANY library, unless there was a great BIG sign saying, "I came from THIS library". Most library books from a specific area, state, county or city, resemble each other. Why re-invent the wheel? They usually use the same software and marking system.
Do you think that the girl read a big sign saying "I got this book from XYZ library system, remember this title IF you are sexually threatened"?
I think NOT. It MAY have come from a nearby library or maybe not. Who can tell? Where did the 12 year old get the lucidity to notice a particular book? Was the title "how to harass young girls"? What was exactly the title? I smell a rat. Maybe a rat who was formerly crippled, and then received Stem Cell Therapy. When would a person being scared and threatened , look for clues or even think about such stuff? Did the 'perp' deliberately show her the book?
This smells on way too many levels. I , had I been a 12 year old girl, would have yelled at the top of my lungs. They would have heard it in Hackensack.
From the article:
... Reutty, the director for 17 years, now faces possible discipline by the library board. Members of the Borough Council have suggested she receive punishment ranging from a letter of reprimand in her personnel file to a 30-day unpaid suspension.
Library Director Michele Reutty is under fire for refusing to give police library circulation records without a subpoena.
You can't be serious!
What if I said:
"Michele Reutty didn't send me a Christmas card last year. This made me very sad and I got angry at some children. This was a blatant disregard for my feelings and resulted in harm to children. I suggest we put a letter of reprimand in her file or suspend her for 30 days."
You'd think I was nuts, right? Why? Well, she is under no obligation whatsoever to send a Christmas card to me. Now, here she is, having been pressured to do something she was under no obligation to do... and frankly, likely in breach of privacy laws as well. She said no. Good on her!
If people want a law that forces anyone to obey arbitrary instructions of police officers (hint: this might be a baaaad thing), then petition to pass one. Until then, she not only did nothing wrong, but she did the right thing. If the police need the information for an investigation, they should get a warrant. Until then, she's done the right thing. Shame on the council members who have suggested disciplinary action.
OMG THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
There is this thing called "The Rule of Law" which basically means that the law always trumps irrational emotional appeals. If the police could make a good case for those records being absolutely critical, then they'd have no problem getting a warrant for those records. If they can't get a warrant, then they can't convince a judge that they need them, and therefore they don't.
This isn't some piddly local statute either.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
People tend to ignore it these days, but the Constitution is still the law of this country. Screw with the little laws as much as you like, but not that one.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
This may very well be the dumbest thing I've heard anyone say in weeks. If you thought you were in the slightest danger, you'd be screaming for protection. Everone thinks they're self-reliant during periods in which they have no problems. As soon as anything goes wrong, as soon as there's some tiny risk, they start crying from help and protection. If your home was invaded and you were incapacitated, you'd be pretty damn glad when the cops showed up because your neighbour had the sense to call them to PROTECT you, rather than to simply check your corpse for evidence so that they can investigate the crime.
Seriously, my head is spinning with the incredible lack of thought that went into your post.
Really want to thank her? Why not mail her $10 or something?
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
Where in the last 400 years has any nation really had ether, or even really attempted to have ether?
While undergoing surgery?
Those who advocate more authority for the police are actually advocating a "police state" as opposed to a "Free nation".
Yes, there is nothing irrational about the desire for a police state. Nor is there anything irrational about the desire to live in a Free society. This is not about rational/irrational.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
It's not "her" library,
Then it isn't her information, either, and so she isn't entitled to give it away.
Apparently you're not a black man living in Chicago. or Las Vegas. Or Los Angeles. or any major metro area in the US. Or any small town.
Or a Latino living in any of the same cities.
Or a practicing Muslim attempting to pray in public.
I'm not sure "a good reason" is quite enough. They need to have a legally good reason, which can only be determined by the court. Library records are not something that can be gotten lightly. A library is a place you can go for free information, and if you have to fear the government looking at what you check out, you will be influenced, and therefore the information is no longer free. Plus, she is not qualified to sacrifice the rights of her readers. The rights weren't hers to sacrifice.
I give bread to the poor, they call me a saint.
I ask why the poor have no bread, they call me a communist.
I'm all for protecting out citizens from crime, but the fact of the matter is that a unchecked government is way more of a threat to society then any one person. Even 9/11 killed only a few thousand, when corrupt governments can kill and oppress millions. Libraries are especially protected, because they exist for free information. If a person is worried about the government looking at what they read, they will be influenced in their choices, and therefore the information is no longer free. This limits the freedom of speech, and that is the first step to a totalitarian government. We believe in freedom over safety because while it is easy for us to sacrifice rights for safety, history has shown that blood must often be shed to gain them back.
I give bread to the poor, they call me a saint.
I ask why the poor have no bread, they call me a communist.
I find it interesting that you are using your freedom of speech, which people have died to gain and protect, to criticize free speech. Remember it is the belief in that right that allows you to state your opinion. Sure, that opinion can lead to death of thousands of innocents (like in the Holocaust and North Korea), but it is your right to state it.
I give bread to the poor, they call me a saint.
I ask why the poor have no bread, they call me a communist.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
I'll see your cop in Georgia and raise you a cop in Louisiana.
On my way home from a motorcycle trip once I was stopped in Columbia, MO. The policeman had me demonstrate that all my lights worked and then told me he was going to have to search my bags. Now I had been on the road for a week, and had some funky clothes and little else in the bags. There was for sure nothing the policeman would have cared about, but I did not feel like having him dig through my dirty underwear.
I told him that he did not have my permission to search the bags, and I asked if I was being charged with anything. He told me he could have a search warrant in no time. He had been fishing with the judge just that morning.
I encouraged him to get a warrant if he wanted to search the bags.
He said it could also take a while to process the warrant, and he would have to take me to the jail to wait. I told him I was a teacher and was on summer break. A wait would just make for a better story when I got home.
I asked if I was being charged with anything.
We danced around this issue for a while. I was polite but firm. He kept telling me he was going to have to search the bags.
He never did search the bags or write me a ticket or tell me why he stopped me.
It still pisses me off.
I think the librarian should have asked for a subpoena. There are fundamental issues here, and while I don't think anyone should obstruct justice, I also don't think policemen should be able to waltz into a library and ask for circulation records. It is not that you have anything to hide, but sometimes you don't feel like having someone digging through your personal stuff.
Isn't it the judge's job to judge whether or not the seriousness of the matter requires that information be given to police?
You guys need some serious privacy legislation.
http://outcampaign.org/
Can anyone explain why the police in this case would get a subpoena, instead of a warrant?
The way I understand it, a subpoena is a court order that a human appear in court; and a warrant is a court approval of police search or seizure. So, since in this case the police wanted to search the library records and sieze one of them, I would assume a warrant would be the proper writ. But obviously I'm confused about something.
The only difference between the suicides a few weeks ago that was different from before was that more recent suicides succeeded. There were several dozen suicide attempts before. These particular suicides weren't a start, they were a culmination.
"it's not about aptitude, it's the way you're viewed" - Galinda
How about we contact the library and let them know we appreciate that she did her job?
http://www.bccls.org/hasbrouck/librarystaff.htm
Ms. Reutty's email is also on the contact page.
I think writing would be better... I don't think they'd like their email or answering machine slashdotted.
The site also has the names of the Board of Trustees, who seem intent on persecuting Ms. Reutty instead of supporting her.
Put your money where your mouths are. Do something!
No unauthorized use. Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
...and there is no way in hell our library would give out ANY information about ANYONE to te police, or any justice official without a warrant first. We are not even allowed to say to a police officer if someone they are looking for is in, or has been in the library.
In saying this, I am in New Zealand, where people actually care about privacy laws.
It is not the job of the police to prevent crime. That is no-one's job because as soon as you start entolling the importance of preventing crime (and we have, terrorism == crime) you are creating a power against freedom that is uncheckable. Everyone has the right to commit crime. No society can be free without that right. If you are caught committing crime you will be judged and you will lose your freedom - all your freedom - but that is after the fact; it doesn't deminish your freedom. All freedom has consequences. I have the right to free speech. I can say whatever I like to whoever I like - no-one will try to stop me, and if they do I am free to ignore them - but that does not mean that my speech will not have consequences. If I tell my boss he is an idiot he might fire me, or give me really shit work to do, or (more likely) steam off in a hissy fit and make me feel bad. If I tell people to go out and kill others I may be arrested and lose my freedom.
The police are not the Access Control Lists of society. They're not there to prevent you from doing things. They're there to aid in repremanding or removing you from society if you fail to abide by its laws. The fact that this results in some sense of the word "protection" is just an unfortunate coincidence. I say unfortunate because people have come to believe that this is what the police are for; to ensure no harm ever comes to them. The result is this learned helplessness that has led us down this garden path of voting people into power who promise to "smoke out the terrorists". They're openingly promising to pass laws that deminish our freedom and people are eating it up. It sickens me.
How we know is more important than what we know.
As a Norwegian, I think you are spot-on. People always complain a little about politicians, they have done that all my life. But those who actually DO something good to society, lift up the spirit of lesser fortunates, spread information and knowledge about issues, are far and between. I don't expect everyone to become politicians, but everyone can do something with their unique talents, however small in the beginning, and grow on that.
I can only conclude that most of the population just cares to read, bitch, moan and watch bad movies. Ultimately it's someone else's problem. News remains a perpetual depressing treadmill, so people can revel in some "reality", while themselves mostly being far-cut off from any real trouble. Easy sadness-fix, to be kept in a depressing and dull state.
Everyone seems to be waiting for someone else to fix the big problems, but who can do that without support? Politicians will come and go, giving a little fix here and there while fighting eachother, often making the big picture worse actually.
How much wealth can we amass, and to what use? That new car, new apartment, how much happiness will it bring. In a few years, they too go boring, and we spend much time hunting for new pieces of happiness. How much can we enjoy partying every weekend, and what do we do that is really fun. We spend so much time amassing wealth and trying to find happiness out in the world. Everyone seeks happiness and love, but true happiness and love doesn't come from drug-injection and superficial relationships, as they instead drain our energy.
Stretch _your_ hand out first. Happiness comes from within, but can be cultivated by doing the 'right' thing. Our inner voice always tells what to do, but it is up to us to cultivate hearing it. It's an adventure, and totally fulfilling and unique to every person. This is the steps to come forward in the world and out of self-indulged misery.
It also helps to do breathing-excercises, or similar practices, to lift the energy. It will actually feel uncomfortable in the beginning, because we're so used to deplete our energy all the time. However, isn't it time to turn around now?
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
Here in the UK, my sister, who is a librarian, is often asked for customers' data by the police. Usually for sensible reasons, e.g. they found a handbag with a library book in it and want to find the owner. However, she has had it made clear to her by her bosses that it is completely illegal to give such information out without a warrent - the data protection act simply doesn't allow it. She always finds it amusing to be having to explain to the police what the law is!
Here, I've corrected it for you. This is my pet peeve: the USA isn't the country which has the most freedom today. Try Sweden, Finland, Denmark or Norway if you're looking for the most freedom.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
Pining for the fjords
And one way you keep seeing it cutting the other way is providing an endless stream of ammo for those in power to use as justification for their getting more power. Any crime or problem can be presented as a nation-sweeping epidemic, that demands immediate action, if the public is just bombarded with just enough examples of it happening.
The problem, as I've been saying before is that human brains functions sorta like that of Terry Prattchett's trolls, whose counting went something like "one, two, many, lots". People simply lose sense of proportion beyond a certain scale. A week, a month, or a year, or even ten years, you can put into an intuitive proportion. A billion years, you can't. Or 10, 100 or 1000 people you can see every day. A billion people becomes just a very large number. "Lots." You may be able to work maths with 1,000,000,000 or 10^9, but your intuition won't help you.
Hence bombarding people with stuff that happened over such huge, unintuitive areas and numbers of people can be a very dangerous thing. The fact that it was a one in a million or one in a billion case just gets lost, and all those cases are treated as if they all happened in a world barely larger than their home town.
E.g., if you heard that one gamer in your home town preferred to play EQ until he lost his job, his house and everything, you think "heh. What a loser." But when you get bombarded with thousands of examples of that happening, it suddenly becomes "whoa! It's a dangerous addiction! It's a wave sweeping the nation!" Why? Because your brain doesn't have the intuitive framework to put it in the right proportion: that it's one in a million cases. But your intuition acts as if they all happened within a mile of your home.
E.g., if you heard that someone raped a child in your home town, you're disgusted, shocked, etc, but in the end, eh, it's one insane person. But get bombarded with cases from all over the world, and evidence that it happens every day, and suddenly it starts seeming like every other adult male is getting a hard-on at pre-teens. Why? Again, because it's not put in the right proportion. It's compared to a vague "Lots" number that's just marginally larger than the male population you see in a day.
And so on.
And while, yes, on one hand it does serve to also amplify the perceived extent of the abuses of power, it also works the other way, giving those in power ammo to keep people scared and justify getting more power. Yes, some citizens might be genuinely mistaken and concerned about the extent of police abuses. But on the other hand, there'll also be a bunch of ruthless politicians understanding this phenomenon and milking it for everything its got.
And frankly, the latter worries me more.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
What kind of an argument is that? Because you had a somewhat irritating experience, therefore this privacy thing is too much hassle? Did you even read the examples I posted?
Making her call to see what it was did not protect or help her.
I see you completely ignored my examples. I guess I'll just have to give you some more.
You might say that your wife was not protected, but what if she (or some other wife, if these examples offend you or are otherwise not applicable) had checked out:
-a book on adultery or divorce (self-explanitory)
-a book on abortion (she doesn't want to have another kid, and would rather take care of it without you knowing)
-a book about a very serious medical condition she has just been diagnosed with. (She could have a myriad of reasons for not telling you, e.g. not wanting you to worry about it just yet because you're in the middle of some very delicate/stressful projects.)
-a book about a new hobby she's getting into (It might be a dangerous hobby and she knows you'll disapprove, or maybe she thinks you'll laugh and mock her about it, or maybe she just wants it to be a surprise when she gives you a hand-fired clay vase for Christmas)
-a book about lesbianism, or a book focused on a specific sexual fetish of some sort (if she doesn't think you'd be understanding, she damn well has the right to keep this secret from you)
-a book about a religion you do not subscribe to (if she wants to worship Shiva in private without being told by her conservative Christian husband that she's going to hell, that's her business.)
-a book on a strange or morbid subject that she checked out simply to satisfy her curiosity (she shouldn't have to explain or justify her reading habits to anyone. I know that I've checked out quite a few weird or morbid books out of mere curiosity, and I'd be pissed if someone told my family about it--even though it was merely innocent curiosity, I would now have to go through the hassle of explaining and justifying my reading habits, and there could still be some lingering doubts.)
I could go on and on. Point is, you didn't know whether your wife was being protected until after you knew the book's title. Yeah, you assumed it was a book for your 5-year-old, but since it was checked out on your wife's card you didn't know that for sure. Now, let me say that I do think that the library should offer a consent form to release your reading history, but your one small moment of irritation pales in comparison to the damage that could be done, to the lives that could be ruined if such spying was allowed. Your wife is a seperate individual, entitled to her own private life if she so chooses.
When my kid is old enough to have his own card, but still a minor, I suppose the librarians will protect his privacy be refusing to tell me what books he checks out, too.
As far as I know it doesn't apply to kids (few civil liberties do, it seems.) I seem to recall my mom calling up and doing some checking on my reading habits a few times. If it does in fact apply to kids (and my mom was just bluffing or our librarian just didn't care), that's another issue entirely--I'm talking about consenting adults who want to read in privacy. Don't you dare drag that despicable "it's for the children!" argument when it clearly does not apply to the issue at hand.
It's gone too far. Where did the common sense go? I think it left when the sense of entitlement and privacy arrived as a consequence of the warped ideology of the boomers.
Yup. You had to wait a few minutes while your wife called to ask about the book. The horror!
If anyone is warped, it's people like you who would rather we sacrifice every last one of our rights (which incidentally have existed for hundreds of years before the boomers) in the name of a small, and I mean VERY fucking small convenience. And to top it off, you actually call it "common sense." Natch.
You're so far detached from reality I will not be surprised at all if your reply consists of nothing but Biblical quotes which "prove" that God hates privacy.
She saved their collective butts on this case. If they requested the information and she just handed it over with the
subpoena the case would have been most likely thrown out with the defense lawyer arguing his client's rights were abused.
'It was an absolute misjudgment of the seriousness of the matter,'
Well, if this case requires a JUDGEment as to how SERIOUS it is, maybe you should ask a JUDGE. Like you do... when you get a subpoena.
The librarian could misjudge the situation, and come under legal fire!
The police could misjudge the situation, and come under legal fire!
If you get a subpoena, its ok! Duh!
This pisses me off so much. The government HAS methods available to it for obtaining information, they ought to USE them, instead of complaining that the situation was 'too serious' for such methods.
Your
Do you honestly think that any cop would rather go knocking on every door in the city looking for this book than go sit in an air conditioned courthouse for an hour & get a suppena for the record? They were lazy, they got rejected, they did it right, they got the information they wanted.
You should probably run for congress, your hyperbole is certainly world class.
Let's look at it more closely had she done as the police had asked:
- Officer: Give me the records on this book [book of the day].
- Librarian: Here you go.
- Officer: Bob Buddy, you are under arrest.
- Prossecutor: Judge we have here the book identified by the victim, as you can see it was checked out by Bob Buddy on June 10th at 5PM.
- Defence: Your honor I object, the prossecution has no chain of custody for the records.
- Prossecutor: Of course we do, Librarian->Officer->Me.
- Defence: Where's the suppena to obtain the records?
- Prossecutor: We don't have one.
- Defence: Judge, that constitutes illegal search and seasure of the records. I request the book and the records be ruled as inadmissable.
- Judge: Sorry, but he's right. The loan records are the property of the patron not the librarian, she had no right to release them to you without a suppena. The book & the records are ruled inadmisable.
[2 weeks later][Newspaper Headlines]
Accused Child Molester, freed on technicality, sues Police and Library for $30M for violating his civil rights.
In a country where police are routinely sued for 'abuse' when they do their job by the book, you don't think that suit would happen?
Today -- Librarian 1 : Cops 0 : Nutjob 0 : Board of Directors 0
I've sent a note to the ACLU via its website to see if they can get involved. I REALLY hate to see all the "librarian was wrong" talk in that article. What people don't seem to understand is that the ends do NOT justify the means. Maybe today you cheer because the police forced their way in to immediately capture a murder suspect "before he could escape"... tomorrow that wrong suspect may be you, because someone that dislikes you called in an anonymous tip on a local murder and fingered you... a judge would never grant a warrant on that alone, but if the police don't think they have to be hassled by getting the warrant... Things like this always remind me of my favorite line in "JFK" - "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."
Let me introduce you to my very own DMCA-protected encryption key: BC 1B 64 4A 8D DE 49 E8 C3 7D CC EE 1A AD EE
If this is happening in a city this size, I can only imagine the greed and underhandedness that happens in larger cities. This country needs to wake up, and the general population needs a few more IQ points to boot.
She can't just hand it over.
- It's not hers to give. By fact, law, and tradition the private information an organization collects about you is yours.
That's why there are a crapload of privacy laws in effect that state under what circumstances the credit reporting agencies can release your information. Why everyone is bent on the telco's giving your call records to the NSA. Why people are pissed about the FBI buying $30M of personal information from data brokers (who generally shouldn't have it) that they can't obtain legaly by requesting it without a warrent.
- It's part of her job to ensure that the policies and procedures of the library are enforced. Check up above, someone actually went out & found the privacy ruling for the library in question. It's clear about when & how those records will be released. Because a cop says 'gimme' is not on the list.
For the other point, a suppena or warrent is the court saying that the police have a 'good reason for needing' whatever. So even by your standard, she was correct to require the police to get a suppena or warrent. Remember here, she didn't say "No", she said "Not without the correct paperwork." She wasn't impeding anything, she was following a set procedure which has been in place and well defined for 200 years.Don't forget that we haven't carpet bombed anywhere in Iraq, much less with white phosphorus. That's a WWII technique that was frequently used against Japan.
Yes, we have had planes and helicopters bomb/shoot targets in fallujah and elsewhere. However, in one example where they drop a bomb on a group moving down a street, you hear the pilot asking if he should take out the group, and a voice answers 'yes'. That affirmation would be from a combat controller, who's on the ground nearby tracking the enemies.
I don't read AC A human right
Disclosure: I was a resident of NJ from 1973-1993.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
You have no idea how many criminals are walking the streets simply because of the technicalities.
I'd rather have some criminals walking the streets than have *the police turn criminal* and committing "technical" violations against innocent people.
You earlier said the library is a public place and it should be public info. So if *I* walk into your public library and I ask the librarian for the dates and titles of every book your 9 year old daughter has ever taken out, then the librarian should just hand that over to me?
If I happen to be a police officer and walk into the library *EMPTY HANDED*, should the librarian turn over the the dates and titles of every book your 9 year old daughter has ever taken out, just on my say-so?
A government that itself becomes criminal and ignores and violates the rights of people... violating the rights of the innocent and guilty indiscriminantly... a government that itself becomes a criminal is far more dangerous and harmful than any ordinary criminal person.
You earlier said 99% of police are good. Hell, lets forget the 1% of police and other government officials who are currupt or malicious. Lets imagine that 100% of police and government officials are good. Often the greatest dangers and worst violations are committed by well intentioned people simply trying to do their jobs and get the bad guys. It is often the most well intentioned of people who break the law and violate our civil rights and other such "technicalites" in their zeal to "get the bad guy".
Catching criminals the right way is more important than making it easier for police to catch criminals. Ensuring that the police operate with respect for individual rights, ensuring that the police operate within the law, ensuring that the police do not become the criminal, that is more important than making it easier for police to catch some ordinary criminal.
It would certainly be easier to catch criminals if any officer could arbitrarily break into innocent people's homes and search and seize innocent people's property. It would certainly be easier to catch criminals if any officer could arbitraily and forcibly extract blood samples from innocent people. It would certainly be easier to catch criminals if any officer could beat a confession out of innocent people.
But in *THIS* country we take the high road. Police are required to operate within the law. Police are required to operate within the Constitution. Police are required to respect Civil rights. Police are required to get search warrants and subpoenas. In this country our police operate "with one hand tied behind their back". And that is what makes this country great and noble.
If you dissagree with that, if you don't want the police to operate with one hand tied behind their back, I suggest you move to Somalia or Nigeria or someplace. The police over there are free to persue criminals - and suspected criminals - and personal enemies - with ruthless efficiency. No need for pesky judges over there. No pesky warrants and subpoenas getting in the way over there. No pesky Civil Rights getting in the way over there. No pesky "technicalites" over there. Police can most efficently catch and punish "the bad guys" over there, guilty or not.
she could just as easily allowed another bus bomber
I'd rather have our police respect "technicalities" (as you call them) and take that risk, than to destroy the fundamental and most noble principles that make America America. Terrorists can "attack our freedoms" and blow up a some busses or buildings and kill some people, but they are incapable of taking away any freedoms and they are incapable of destroying this country.
No, it is only people like you who can actually take away our freedoms, only people like you who can destroy this country.
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
This sgtory has been spun in such a way as to ignore the central issue. She was protecting her library patrons rights and helping the police. What kind of case would they have if they didn't follow procedure? The creep might have gotten off scott-free. The police and the library might have been sued. So she added a few extra hours to the investigation. She should get a fucking medal, for doing her job, and also for doing the police's job.
The conspiracy nut in me wants to think this is all calculated to make people forget that police actually need a subpeona.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The great CBC sure did a lousy job reporting this information to you. It was the "Equal Time Rule" that was rescinded. That Federal law required broadcasters to donate an equal amount of time to any political opposition candidates. If one candidate bought an hour of advertizing the broadcaster had to provide an hour to his opponent.
I'm sorry to inform you that you were close... but what he was refering to what was called the "Fairness Doctrine".
Wikipedia has a good article on it : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine
The summary of the article is "The Fairness Doctrine is a former policy of the United States's Federal Communications Commission. It required broadcast licensees to present controversial issues of public importance, and to present such issues in an honest, equal and balanced manner."
The only reason I knew the name was because I remembered it being done. It was done so that Rush Limbaugh's show could exist.
BTW before accusing anyone of doing a lousy job, at least get your facts right (Just pokin fun).
Regards,
Bill
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
You have certain rights spelled out in the Constitution, as well as in many other documents; among them is the Fourth Amendment. ("The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.")
If that makes you feel secure, great! If it doesn't, too bad. There's no protection for feeling secure, any more than there's a protection for 'having a great life.' If you feel secure within the realm of protections afforded to you by law, or don't feel secure, that's your own business. The job of the police, and of government in general, are not to make you feel a certain way, and just because you feel insecure, it doesn't mean that they're not doing their jobs.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
> The problem isn't her. The problem is that the police cannot obtain a warrant fast enough.
They had a subpeons THE SAME DAY. I'd say that's pretty damned fast.
So much of the populace today seems to think that the right to privacy can't be abused because "if you didn't do anything, then you won't be affected". Well, I don't know what country they're living in, but in the "good ole usa" I often see someone who's managed to be misidentified, or simply be at the wrong place at the wrong time almost every night on the TV news. Occasionally these mistakes are perpetuated for such a long time that reputations are ruined and jobs are lost. There are legal channels available for authorities to use in order to request information (a supoena). I expect them to use them before coming to me. Period.
No, PRIVATE information is private. It is yours. If I call up AT&T and they give me your DUF information, they are in violation of Federal laws (Telecommunications Act of 1996 is one). If I call up Citibank and they give me your CC details, they are in violation of other federal laws. If one of the credit reporting agencies gives my information away without my authorization, they are in violation of federal law. Data collected on you illegally is not thiers any more than your TV belongs to the thief who stole it from your livingroom. Why can data collection services sell it, because due to a loophole Congress is trying to close, it's illegal for companies to give you that information, but not for you to have it. Other information - your appearances in court, ownership of a house, birth date - public record type stuff is another matter.
Second I did not say that she should give out everyone's records but if the police have a good reason for wanting a particular record she should cooperate.
Who's opinion should she defer to for a 'good reason'? That's the very essence of the supena/warrent system. She doesn't have to defer to anyone's opinion [it's not the judges opinion she has to defer to, it's his ruling]. She has to follow a set protocol which is clearly defined in both the US Constitution, and in 200 years of case law.
The library policy is a guideline for behavior meant to protect there patrons but those rules must be interpreted and it seems obvious where the library stands on this situation as they were talking about a reprimand and a possible 30 day suspension for her.
Um, no. How about state law:
And just so we don't get confused:Now, can we discuss how exactly the Board of Directors of the library can complain about her behavior? Oh right, they are elected and appointed officials. If they do anything to her, they are going to have every ACLU lawyer camped out on their doorstep just dieing to take a crack at them.
ACLU: Why did you suspend her?
Board: Because she didn't give out record information when the police asked.
ACLU: Did they provide a supena?
Board: No.
ACLU: So she followed the legal requirement of L.1985, C.172, 2(c) - which requires a supena prior to the release of that information to the police?
Board: Um
ACLU: So, in the opinion of the board, Michele Reutty should have violated state law, rather than follow it?
It goes downhill fast from there.
This isn't a case of some librarian with a privacy bug up her ass, it's someone following the letter and the spirit of the law, and having over zelous cops asking her to break the law, and a moronic board responding in typical gutless elected official fasion.