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FBI Foils Attack by Monitoring Chat Rooms
An anonymous reader writes "A planned terrorist attack on New York City was reportedly foiled by FBI agents who monitored chat rooms frequented by extremists. Lebanese authorities captured an Al Qaeda member who confessed to the plot, and stated that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had pledged financial and other support for the operation. Although the planning for the operation was not far along, according to U.S. officials, they had already been monitoring the plot for a year." From the article: "A government official with knowledge of the investigation said the alleged plot did focus on New York's transport system, but did not target the Holland Tunnel. New York senator Charles Schumer said: 'This is one instance where intelligence was on top of its game and discovered the plot when it was just in the talking phase.' The Holland Tunnel is protected not just by bedrock, but also by concrete and cast-iron steel. One counter-terrorism source told the Daily News it was doubtful a plot to blow it up would be feasible, saying huge amounts of explosives and a detailed knowledge of blast effect would be necessary."
What chat rooms do they hang out in? #osama or something?
So, you want to convince intelligent people like those on slashdot that the FBI stopped people from around the world possibly funded by a dead guy to flood a bunch of businesses up hill by lurking in a chatroom?
Shit, if only they had WMDs and lived in one place, maybe we would just take over the country or something.
FUD.
More evidence of FUD from the article itself:
"There was nothing imminent, but it was being monitored for a long period of time," he said. "This is ongoing, that's why I've said nothing about it until now. It would have been better if this had not been disclosed."
A government official with knowledge of the investigation said the alleged plot did focus on New York's transport system, but did not target the Holland Tunnel.
New York senator Charles Schumer said: "This is one instance where intelligence was on top of its game and discovered the plot when it was just in the talking phase."
The Holland Tunnel is protected not just by bedrock, but also by concrete and cast-iron steel.
Who makes this shit up?
They were NOT going to attack the Holland Tunnel, but BTW, it is protected by bedrock, concrete, and cast-iron steel?
More confidence in their ignorance:
One counter-terrorism source told the Daily News it was doubtful a plot to blow it up would be feasible...
But the guy fessed up over a month ago without even being tortured! Now that is real progress!
I feel safer, don't you?
I love this country b/c it allows me to say things like, "This country is retarded" without fear of black helicopters and an SS-type goonsquad picing me up, but lately the three branches have made it so hard (to love them, not to say they're retarded.) I'm glad to have a reason to believe that someone is doing something right in those ivory towers the northeast. I wish we had more stories like this. (Well, not more stories, but more events like this to write stories about. If there were just more stories it would be meaningless.)
I'm no healthnut, but I'm interested: www.healthbolt.net
The government's watching. I'm glad they actually did something useful, though. There's been a lot of spying for the sake of privacy violation. It's nice to get results once in a while.
First post?
So, how much warrentless wiretapping and patriot act powers did it take to monitor a chat room?
Hmm...yeah.. that's what I thought.
One counter-terrorism source told the Daily News it was doubtful a plot to blow it up would be feasible, saying huge amounts of explosives and a detailed knowledge of blast effect would be necessary."
Not to worry, the New York Times will be publishing a how-to guide next week complete with tunnel schematics and rates of expansion for various explosives.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
bloodaxe> I put on my robe and Arab hat.
This sounds more like some guys mouthing off rather than a real threat. The real players do not discuss their plans in chat rooms. It's like the group from Miami that was "trying to blow up the John Hancock Building". Turns out they're a bunch of small-time crooks and losers who ran into an FBI agent while blithering.
Al-queda used to have some competent people, and they might eventually get their act together for another big act of terrorism, but what we're seeing now are wannabee terrorists.
Call me cynical if you must but I am sure we will be getting more of the "Our system works!" in the run up to November.
Especially since the last announcement by the administration which turned out to not be AQ related, had no real plan or ability to carry it out.
Considering they found the guys on IRC its more likely they found a shower of idiots then actual terrorists.
... if terrorists were to blow up all the roads and bridges in New York City, they'd be doing everybody a favor.
Have you ever actually tried driving on them?
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I think this is very dubious. They haven't arrested anyone ("The principal players are not in this country"), and only alluded to three or four people who "may" have Al Qaeda connections... To me it smells like PR to support the supposed "war on terror".
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Sounds a lot like the situation down in Miami a few weeks ago. The government really hyped a plot by several people to attack the Sears Tower. Turned out that those people had no more ability to blow up a firecracker than the Sears Tower. Now we get a similar story about a plan that (depending on who you listen to) either targeted a transportation target in New York or the Holland Tunnel specifically. I'd like to think that our government is on top of the situation but after the Sears Tower story and all the orange terror alerts before the last election, I don't. And that is bad. You'd like to think that our government has enough integrity to provide accurate information about terror threats to protect the public, but it doesn't.
One counter-terrorism source told the Daily News it was doubtful a plot to blow it up would be feasible, saying huge amounts of explosives and a detailed knowledge of blast effect would be necessary.
Maybe the terrorists just need toAsk a Navy SEAL:
Dear Navy SEAL,
I am a happily married man with a warm and loving wife who is also my best friend. We've been together for 17 years and couldn't be happier. But lately she says she wants separate beds. I'm reeling! We're barely in our 40s, and in my mind separate sleeping is for seniors. Am I making too much of this? Help!
--Anxious In Andersonville
Dear Anxious,
Destroying a bridge might look easy in the movies, but remember: They're designed to withstand the immense shear-forces of wind and weather. Deploying an underwater M-32 satchel charge at the base of each load-bearing pylon looks like the answer, but it might not even shake a modern riveted steel highway or railroad bridge. Without delving into the complex language of the guerrilla combat engineer, the best advice I can give you is to forgo subtlety in favor of brute force: Put two satchel charges at each X-shaped trestle buck, and this should rob the bridge of any reinforcing strength and cause it to buckle nicely.
When you have nothing left to burn you must set yourself on fire
You don't have to destroy the tunnels - just make them unusable for a few weeks. The economic effects would be massive.
One year ago a number of explosions rocked the Tube in London. As you know, the tunnels weren't damaged for the most part. All that would happen (God forbid) if anyone tried to blow up a tunnel would be to cripple the traffic in Manhattan (which pretty bad as is) but it would take a lot of explosives to actually destroy a tunnel from within if it's a tube. Another example - Moscow Metro Feb 6, 2004, when an explosion happened in a packed rush-hour train. Also no damage to the tunnel. However, when some idiots were installing a billboard illegally above a metro tunnel (also in Moscow), they successfully managed to penetrate the tunnel using a pile that was being driven, right into a train that happened to be in the tunnel at that exact moment. Thankfully nobody was hurt in this incident. See this Pictures of the pile: here and here. View topside and another pic
-Palal
New York senator Charles Schumer said: 'This is one instance where intelligence was on top of its game and discovered the plot when it was just in the talking phase.'
<Lailaha> Dudez! WTF is that abu-ass-grab torture sh!tz?
<Iqbal> Totally.
<Lailaha> We should do something about it.
<Iqbal> Yeah, like blow something up
<Lailaha> No wayz, that's so 911.
<Iqbal> Ok, get this - we flood the new york subway!
<Lailaha> My uncle's 3rd wife's brother's couzin is zawqari's best bud, he could hook us up!
<Iqbal> Isn't he dead?
<Lailaha> Nah, that's just the cover story. He's hiding out with 20 virgins, practicing for the big day!
<Iqbal> That's sooo cool, I wish I had 20 virgins.
<Lailaha> Yah, me twoz
<Iqbal> Hey, wtf, someone is banging on my door.
<Iqbal> BRB
<Lailaha> ?? u there ??
<Lailaha> I gotz school, culaterz
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
Whenever I hear something like this, I immediately think "What are they trying to distract me from now?"
Did Bush's daughters invade Namibia or something?
Lebanese authorities captured an Al Qaeda member who confessed to the plot, and stated that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had pledged financial and other support for the operation.
When the only source of information is an alleged confession of an unknown person in the custody of a government that uses torture, you should be very skeptical. Countries like Pakistan are famous for trotting out suspects and victories in the "War Against Terror" whenever they are required for public consumption. In most cases, these suspects are not available for independent interrogation, and there is mysteriously no other evidence available.
Forgive me for the tinfoil hat, but after the last great victory in the War Against Terror which we were lead to believe targeted the Sears Tower, but subsequently turned out to be a bunch of crazy homeless people, I've started wearing said hat with pride.
Lies about crimes
Is that like wooden rubber?
Cast iron and steel are two different things. I'm assuming they mean steel. Cast iron is kind of brittle.
So let me get this straight, Canada's CT Intel busts like half a dozen terrorists before they do anything bad and America tells us our borders aren't secure enough and that we suck. America's CT intel klines a chat group and are commended for a job well done. Dare I ask, WTF?
disclaimer: I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.
This only the first of many so-called terrorist plots that will be announced as foiled in the months to come. It's an election year, folks.
It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
So was this a true confession or was this a "confession" when the person was being tortured? Now we all know Lebanon would never torture anyone! You can torture anyone to say anything, including confessing that your mother is commie and a fat capitalist in the same sentence and that you are your own grandfather. After all, why spend time trying to prove someone would actually go though with the plot when you can just torture them?
Heck, you can just take random people off the streets and torture them into confessing they are Al Qaeda sleepers.
...is that you have to walk a backpack onto a subway train, whereas you can drive a truck into a tunnel. The payload in the latter case can be orders of magnitude larger.
Lies about crimes
The feds had one hell of time joining it, however
All of the material in the NYT article was already public.
First the easy part: McVeigh was Oklahoma City, not Kansas City.
Now for the real issue: Do you have any idea how hard it is to dig tunnels through rock with explosives? You dig holes into the rock. You put explosives into the holes. You carefully tamp each of the charges. You set off the explosives in their neat little holes in the rock. And what do you get?
A few feet. That's all.
Yeah, the terrorists would set off a bigger explosion. But it wouldn't be tamped - the force of the blast would escape both directions along the tunnel. For "gravity" to work for you, you'd first have to crack the rock enough that it's no longer structural. (It's not just the concrete and steel that holds all that rock up. The rock holds itself up.)
And if a tamped explosion only breaks a few feet of rock, a bigger but untamped one isn't going to do much more...
Fractured Element
It would probably collapse a part of the roof and kill some people, but it's doubtful it would take out the entire tunnel, which is merely a hole carved in some very hard rock. It's likely explosives were used to create it in the first place.
Just because someone seems really silly, and wanders around in a robe with a stick does not mean they are not dangerous - sure those Florida guys sounded goofy but on the other hand what would happen if someone did actually hook up the goofy guys with explosives? However goofy they were they were saying they wanted explosives to take the fight to the US...
There was another really goofy guy - Richard Reid. You may remember him from exciting life moments as "I have to take my my shoes off in the airport?!"
I mean he tried to light his shoe on fire on a plane with a lighter. Yet even that bumbling moron managed to aquire explosives and get them on a plane. If he managed, why not the Florida guys eventually as well? Why should we not take someone seriously when they claim they want to blow up something no matter how inept they seem? Would you leave them wandering without supervision until they did manage to succeed?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Now, for the explosion in a tunnel. I understand how they make tunnels. Those are called controlled blasts. They do a little at a time for a reason. It's called, "Creating something not destroying something." Someone who wanted to destroy the tunnell would only have to create a huge explosion that couldn't vent out the tunnel's two ends. By doing so, force from the blast would damage rock. That is when Gravity would come into effect.
You can't compare controlled blasts to someone trying to blow up something like that Holland Tunnel. Two different animals.
"Snatching defeat from the mouth of victory on a daily basis."
Terrorists using internet chat rooms??? LMAO! Give me a break. The US government can't even tell a half-way believable lie anymore.
This is in the YRO section. What are the online rights involved in this case? Was there a warrantless intrusion into a private chat room? Was there torture involved? I didn't see anything in the article to indicate anything to be concerned about. (Including that the plot might be successful, or that anyone's civil right had been threatened.) This just looks like another feeble attempt at an attack, good FBI investigation, and politicians trying to look like they're winning the war on terror before the elections.
Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
That's no excuse. All of the material on quantum physics is public, but it's a Hell of a lot easier to learn from a well-written textbook. Presentation matters. The terrorists in question clearly hadn't put 2 and 2 together before the NYT article, because the SWIFT-monitoring plan was working. Now: not so much.
The NYT published the article knowing it would damage national security, but hey, they made a buck! As long as a major corporation makes money, I guess it's OK?
Of course, at the rate that the credibility of the NYT is falling, they'll be able to use the same defense as the Weekly World News before long: everyone knows we just make stuff up, and no reasonable man would believe anything he reads in our paper.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Frankly, I am appalled that the NY Times^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D FBI has leaked information about a secret terrorist-tracking program. The NY Times^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D FBI has endangered the American people and should be punished as a terrorist. This secret program to track bank accounts^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D chat rooms relied upon secrecy for success and now that the NY Times^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D FBI has blown this program wide open, we are now at risk.
Why does the NY Times^D^D^D^D^D^D^D^D FBI hate America? Why?
We managed to bust the dumb terrorists.
Personally, I'd feel safer had we gotten the smart ones.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Breaching the lining and knocking out the pumps will flood the tunnel, drowning everybody inside it, and probably putting it out of commission for months or years.
A lot more than you think - the OKC building wasn't lined with steel sections that are probably half a foot thick, held in compression by the surrounding rock. That's not to say that an explosion in the tunnel would be a minor event - the blast itself would kill or injure a lot of people in the tunnel, plus critical systems like ventilation and pumps would be gutted. This isn't even mentioning the shock and disruptive value of the event: who would want to use any of the tunnels into NYC afterwards?
-b.
They were not on the street. They were living in a warehouse, which means they had some money... more like a cult really.
As for the "Wal-Mart" guns, sure you can get a few guns but those are little good if you're looking to take out a building or a large number of people. Wal-Mart doesn't sell dynamite you know. It's substiantally harder to get real explosives, and that is what they were asking after.
Now I don't know about you but at the point where a cult starts asking after high explosives I'd say that's a good time to reel them in. Perhaps the publicity around the case is suspect but not the actual action of arresting people with a stated goal of killing people and asking for high explosives to do so from someone they think can provide them. I can't send out death threats with impunity and neither should they be able to.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley