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Xbox 360 Coming With HDMI Port?
GeekGod writes "Images of an Xbox 360 motherboard with HDMI-port have been leaked on the internet. So it looks like Microsoft will follow into Sony's footsteps and release an Xbox 360 with a digital video output. This might also come in handy for their future HD-DVD addon, certainly when movies will get HDCP-protected."
I thought that HD-DVD without HDCP would be displayed at reduced resolution as part of the DRM scheme.
and is quickly killing off component inputs on new HDTVs, this move only makes sence.
is microsoft planning on releasing a "new" 360 periodically with added features? perhaps faster-clocked processor? more ram? bigger default HD in the more-expensive unit? HD-DVD drive by default? additional ports?
although I don't agree with the idea of nudging users into purchasing a completely new unit every year or two, I strongly disagree with the need to constantly purchase add-ons for the system. (HD-DVD, new harddrive unit, perhaps hdmi, if M$ can figure out how to create an add-on for that).
m$ should realize that this is what happens when you release a console with the hopes of it having such a long lifespan; I believe microsoft wanted it to last 10 years? I know Sony wants the PS3 to last about that long.
I can't really offer a solution to this, except for having a completely upgradable system with plugin daughtercards... but then you just have a desktop computer, again.
ug. something tells me that videogames are starting to move into the lifetime-investment category... especially with this new trend of episodic content and purchased add-ons. it seems that everyone will keep re-purchasing everything (classic videogames, music in new formats, movies in new formats, and now hardware).
...spike
Ewwwwww, coconut...
This might also come in handy for their future HD-DVD addon, certainly when movies will get HDCP-protected."
All currently available HD DVD and the upcoming Blu-Ray titles are HDCP protected. When they're sent as a digital signal over HDMI or DVI to displays that support HDCP, they're encrypted. The Image Constraint Token (ICT)- part of the standard which halves the resolution when a movie is diplayed over unencrypted DVI or analog outputs- just hasn't been put to use yet, making HDCP non-mandatory.
Movie studios have pledged to not enable the ICT (image constraint) flag in either hd-dvds or blu-ray until 2010 or later. Surprisingly even they realized that screwing over a majority of the hd set owners wouldn't be good for their bottomline.
Hmmm... Pie...
Maybe their web server is running on an X-Box 360 and overheated!
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
Oh, you meant to say "you're behind."
All this talk of ports, you never know.
So... there's a screenshot of an HDMI port. From an anonymous source. And the anonymous source says that the HDMI port in the picture is connected to an XBox 360 motherboard. And we're supposed to take his word for it, and that's supposed to be our proof that the XBox 360 is getting HDMI.
Uhh...
I guess it makes sense if Zonk is compelled to publish any XBox 360 related news that comes in, but frankly, I don't find this very convincing.
Meanwhile, I thought it was pretty stupid and asinine that Sony split their market by making you buy an entire new $600 PS3 to upgrade your $500 PS3 to HDMI. I'm gonna consider it pretty stupid and asinine if Microsoft also splits their market by making you buy an entire new $400 XBox to upgrade your older $400 XBox to HDMI.
Movie studios have pledged to not enable the ICT (image constraint) flag in either hd-dvds or blu-ray until 2010 or later.
And by movie studios you mean "a few movie studios", more specifically, Sony itself, Paramount, Fox, Warner, Disney, and that's about it. And that dosen't GURANTEE that they will not go back on what they've said, now does it?
And please learn basic English, would you? It's "you're", short for 'you are' (notice an a and a space missing). It's not 'your', goddamnit!
Next-gen has left a sour taste in everyone's mouth. With Microsoft's bumbling with shipments of Xbox 360's early on to Sony's $499-$599 price tag on their PS3, news like this (to us veteran gamers) just doesn't mean much. Going forward gamers will get more value for the newer systems which is what Microsoft is looking to add to their Xbox name, however adding more sku's to already bloated market seems like a farce at this point in the game. -VoG-
I bought a nice HDTV and I will only invest in a new system if it has both DVI/HDMI and HDDVD/BluRay. When CD's came out, I stopped buying cassettes. When DVD came out, I stopped buying VHS. I've already stopped buying DVD's and am saving my money for HD disks of any kind. I am a technophile, I can't help it.
Last generation I would only buy a system that could play DVD's out of the box, so I only bought a PS2. I never saw one of those fancy DVD GC's in the stores. The generation before that I would only buy a system that could play CD's out of the box, so I ended up buying both the Saturn and the PS1. With the exception of the Saturn, this algorithm has served me well.
That in mind, if the Xbox360 really does produce a system with HDMI and HDDVD out of the box (and they also keep on working on their Xbox backwards compatibility) then I will most certainly buy one. But so far MS has decided they don't want my technophile money.
I hate it when people complain about them "screwing over early adopters". Either it was worth $400 for the console or it wasn't. Quit trying to stop them from adding a feature many of us who don't yet have an XBox 360 want. They're not going to have HD-DVD games, they're not going to up the clock speed, they're not going to add more memory. They are just adding a couple of features that in no way change what games you can play and how they look. Hopefully when they move to the smaller die the XBox 360's will run a little cooler and the fans won't be so loud. That's not "screwing over early adopters". They're taking advantage of new technology when it comes out. The XBox 360's that people have already bought won't lose features.
I will contribute to that page if you can enlighten us as to yourself.
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
I think that we should be raising awareness of HDCP and ICT and not buying products that have these features.
If consumers don't buy these then the outrage from people who have brought HDTV's without HDCP will be huge, and the companies won't be able to force this on us.
If there is an add-on HD-DVD module.... there is no reason why it can't have an HDMI port on it, allowing all 360s the same output capability...
"Waste not one watt!" - CZ
THe Xbox 360 was designed with hdmi in mind. If I can refer you to http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=319&prod ucts_id=8540 they have a place holder for an official Microsoft HDMI cable for the 360 to be shipped sometime this fall with the release of the HD-DVD add-on. While they may release a newer version of the xbox 360 the older ones will still work just fine.
My understanding was that Microsoft would release an HDMI "cable" to replace the current one when the tech was ready. If you have a 360 now, with the latest update and VGA cables, your 360 now is upscaling DVD video to 720p. From the shots I've seen, it's not bad.
There is no separate VGA output. There's simply a cable you plug into a specialized port. I would imagine an HDMI cable would be a no-brainer.
I don't know enough about the hardware to know if a special motherboard is required for HDMI, but my guess is that it's not -- it's all in the cable. Maybe someone more adept can answer this question.
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
Thats my biggest worry, most tv's come with only one hdmi port. If you're big on hd and have mroe then on device in the future (consoles, set tops, etc.) you're (dodges grammar nazis this time) gonna be in a pickle!
Hmmm... Pie...
A number of new HDTV's I've seen that do 1080p come with component inputs as well. Frankly it would be suicide to not do so since there are so few HDMI compliant devices, and the older ones are a bit flaky...
What proof do you have that ANY new HDTV units come without component input?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Whenever possible, refuse to buy HDCP enabled products. If enough deivces in the market do not support HDCP, the ICT will never be enabled.
That primarily means if you're going to buy a PS3, but the cheaper $500 model with no HDCP. When buying a display, make sure it supports 1080p via component input (the newer Samsung HDTV units among others).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Well to end the trilogy, you do not understand marketing and sales. If studios enabled the ICT flag now, who would the sell to? Not the millions of early HD TV buyers, instead the tens of ... well, tens of people who have a really new TV with HDMI and an HDMI player.
Since that is about no-one the studios are not enabling this flag so they can sell millions of movies instead of ten.
The key for the future is to try and not support HDCP and HDMI. Buy HD TV displays that accept 1080p over component. Try to buy players that output HD over component cables, like the current 360 or the $500 PS3 (a special gift to be able to save money and reject DRM at the same time).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The add-on is just like an external CD-ROM drive, and there's no way it would have enough computer power to decode the MP4 signal and audio comping from an HD-DVD disc - that's why the unit is going to probably cost around $200, not $500! It's cheaper to use the 360 for decoding.
That is why the 360 itself needs HDMI to be able to output an HDCP encrypted signal to an approved HD display device.
Now it will also work with current models using component outputs. That may not look quite as good but the difference will not be perceptible on the sets most people would have under conditions most people watch in.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Interesting story and it would certainly make sense for Microsoft to do a little feature-matching at a vastly lower price to steal some PS3 glory and muddy the waters. If it's true you can expect to see a launch (or at least a strong announcement) by late October. Hopefully this rumour isn't solely based on the evidence of that blurry photo though, which quite frankly could be just about any piece of home entertainment hardware, such as a media PC or HD recorder.
I'm not going to sit here and say that a TMDS chip can be embedded in the cable, because I don't know what the requirements of it are, as far as timing and signal goes. Is there anyone here or on Xbox-Scene who is qualified to answer that? Is it possible to have an outboard TMDS?
The thing is such a thing is pointless to do. You are taking an analog signal, and converting what was digital back to digital... what you will not get is the original quality a true digital path would have provides, indeed you would probably see some loss from the conversion.
Furthermore it does not matter from a disc protection standpoint. Unless the data coming off the disc is going through a protected path the entire distance, it will not meet the requirements that prevent an enabled ICT flag from halving the resolution of movies played (if they every turn it on, which I am thinking they will not for many years if ever).
So while nothing is technically impossible to do there's no point from a quality standpoint (you can already do the highest 360 HD output via component cables which will look really good), and no point in doing so to try and prevent the ICT flag from screwing you over.
That's why you have not seen such a cable to date (not to mention anything like it would be a real beast of a cable, possibly requiring a seperetae power supply for the encoder!!!).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
With Sony you get to decide up front if you really want to support HDMI (a bad idea), or if you want your HD delivered over component cables (you can do 1080p over component and newer HD units with real 1080p displays support this). I did not think the 360 would release a different confiuration later, that's a lot more dishonest in my mind.
If you don't HAVE to use HDMI, why not avoid it and the DRM it entails? Device hookup to-date has been pretty thorny so unlike most digital connections it generally brings more headaches than it solves. And in the process you get to save money.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That's another good reason to use component for HD signals, longer cable runs and much easier to switch (most any old video+L+R switch box will do the trick).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Hey look, a rumor about something that might mean further advantage to the 360! Time to apply that "zonked" tag.
Humorously this time it backfired as people realized what a quagmire Microsoft if is if it starts signaling you can expect newer 360 models every six months. Should I buy now, or wait for the end of the upgrade cycle? Wlcome to the world of PC gaming as we know it today, poor console players! You thought you could buy a console and just use it for years without coughing up for upgrades?
However the site linked to is pretty sketchy so right now we really have no idea if it's true or not. It was meant just as a positive boost to the 360 image that it would be up to date with the "coolest" tech.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Actually Microsoft has hinted in interviews they may release more powerful 360's later. The thinking is that games will still play, just that later 360's might be able to handle 1080p while older ones could just do the smae games at 720p. Just like PC games and video cards.
I agree with the reasons you stated and think it's a bad idea, but don't think it's not being considered.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The HDMI interface is a very similar situation because it has nothing to do with the core components of the system.
If you were talking straight DVI or VGA I would agree with you. Just a different kind of output.
But HDMI is altogether different. It requires a protected path for video from the moment it gets decoded, which happens inside the 360. The decoder must work in conjunction with the encryption module which then in turn sends the HDCP encrypted video over the HDMI cable. You can't just make an adaptor cable if the insides of the 360 do not already support HDCP.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Make no mistake, this is actually Microsoft's and Sony's wet dream: to finally kill off that pesky "general-purpose" computer whose ability to run Free Software makes it so hard for them to abuse the sheeple more than they already do!
Hate to blow your rant but the PS3 is shipping with Linux installed.
Really.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
That picture looks so bad, I'm suprised you fell for it. Hey if I submit a badly photoshopped picture of a PS3 addon for the XBOX360 will they publish that too?
Uh, people did complain. You just weren't paying attention. And you're an idiot who can't tell the clear visual difference.
I judge you: class 4 retard
Looking at how they shifted their proprietary a/v output jack upwards and squeezed in the HDMI port underneath it, I took a look at how the component cable connects to the back of my 360. The component plug has a good deal of overhang and I'm not all that sure you can connect both it and the HDMI cable at the same time, which you would want to do if you want to use the optical audio port on the component cable. It would have worked better if they put the HDMI plug above the proprietary plug instead of what is pictured. The arrangement might even get in the way of the wireless networking adapter.
So, whatever this is, I doubt it's going to be released to the market as-is. It's been suggested that the proprietary a/v jack might be able to support an HDMI adapter plugged into it, the HDMI port pictured might just be a lead-off from the proprietary plug for development purposes (the submitter said he saw a grand total of 3 such motherboards, and no mention of a shell).
The early adopters were so rabid for the device that they had to have it early. That's what they wanted, that's what they got. They didn't get "screwed"... Lied to, perhaps, but not screwed.
The entity being screwed over by this is Microsoft. People who are willing to wait a bit for a gaming system (hint: every single person left that Microsoft still wants to sell a 360 to) are going to see that they made the right decision by holding off, and wonder how quickly this new new 360 will be obsolete due to the release of a model with more features. Moves like this increase the number of compelling titles that have to be available before the fence sitters will make a purchase, and provide ammunition for the competition's advertising campaigns.
Oops.
VIDEO IN! VIDEO IN! VIDEO IN VIDEO IN VIDEO IN! VIDEO IN!.
Guess what I want VIDEO IN VIDEO IN VIDEO IN VIDEO IN VIDEO IN VIDEO IN!
PVR functionality would have won this generation, though Sony's PSX (Real PSX like $2000 machine) didn't sell well it was partially because that device was terribly crippled.
Also you can force your users to connect to the internet at least once a week, great for live or Sony.
I have an HDTV display that can display 1080p but the problem is its first gen so there isnt hdcp over dvi. This is annoying because now, i can either trash the tv or spend another 1000$ on those hdcp remover things or watch my legitimate content degraded by a probably low quality algorithm designed to make it look like shit. why should i have to its my damn tv and HD-dvd or bluray disk! ... sigh
If you ever tried to work with PS2 Linux as shipped by Sony, you'd know how little this really matters.
PS2 Linux only became really usable when the users fixed it up. Sony didn't give a rat's ass about it.
How do you know they do not this time? After all them seem to be more interested in this being an actual computer and that is the OS being shipped with it.
The fact that Sony is proceeding with it still in the next generation at least indicates they are not actively "against" Linux. How can you say they are working against it by including it, even if support is poor?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It is extremely unlikey there exists any digital path that could dump raw data from the disc to said device. It would have to already be in hardware and no invenstigations have found any kind of digital path to exist at all, much less one that could be enabled via firmware.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You are counting reduction in inputs as a death, but I cannot see it that way. Death is when a device is shipped with no component inputs, which means that sales of that TV indicate a number of consumers that are using only HDCP capible devices and thus offer hard numbers as to the size of a potential market in terms of sales. Right now even those single component input sets mean a consumer who may be using component inputs (and in fact is very likley to be doing so) which in turn means you cannot enable the ICT flag.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Okay, the PS3 part makes sense. But buying a display that supports 1080p via component doesn't help at all from a "marked penetration versus ICT implentation" standpoint if the display also supports DVI/HDMI/HDCP, which of course is the situation with any new Samsung HDTV (and virtually every other new HDTV).
I kind of agree with you but I meant that from the other side of the way you are looking at it - buy a device that supports component inputs (which is most of them right now). What I am assuming there is that you will simply not be able to find displays without HDMI inputs before long (if it is not already the case) and therefore practically you cannot avoid supporting that from the display side.
However it still muddies the waters in that studios do not know what kinds of inputs people are actually using...
That's why it is so important to not support HDCP from the player side, where helpfully both Sony and Miicrosoft have thrown the consumers a rope. If enough people buy the $500 PS3, if there are millions out in the market - that is millions of players that a studio knows CANNOT support HDCP and thus will be turned off of any discs using the ICT flag. As long as the percentage of $500 players sold remains high the ICT flag is gauranteed never to be turned on, and if it passes some number in th emillions that is a practical level that cannot be ignored at any point afterward regardless of percentages.
The truth is that even if the PS3 sells PS2-like numbers over the course of its life, it will still be a drop in the bucket compared to non-PS3 Blu-Ray player sales if the format succeeds. And the strong likelihood is that every non-PS3 Blu-Ray player WILL have HDMI/HDCP output.
That will be true when player prices are about half of the PS3 costs, probably not for at least a few years. But like I said a large enough number of PS3 playing devices without HDMI support will offer a potential market large enough that studios will not risk enabling the flags - especially if the market does receive the format well. If they are making money they may well see no need to enable the flag.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Altering the motherboard design to include an HDMI port on the system itself is great, but doesn't the current Xbox 360 use a proprietary A/V-out port (through which your composite, s-video, component, optical audio,etc. are all passed)?
What's to stop MS from just releasing an HDMI video cable that goes through that same port, for the sake of all those without HDMI built in, as well as an XBL or other update to make it possible?
Don't blame the device makers, blame the companies who control the content & thus the DRM mechanisms behind all of this.
Note that both Australian and Euro prices include sales tax, whereas the US price does not. In Australia, that's 10%, which bring it a lot closer.
Still relatively expensive, but you can put that down to greater costs of doing business and/or size of the market. Plus a little margin to allow for currency fluctuations.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
I bought a nice HDTV and I will only invest in a new system if it has both DVI/HDMI and HDDVD/BluRay. When CD's came out, I stopped buying cassettes. When DVD came out, I stopped buying VHS. I've already stopped buying DVD's and am saving my money for HD disks of any kind. I am a technophile, I can't help it.
Clearly you're the market for both MS's and Sony's new systems.
Those of us who haven't "invested" in an HDTV system basically look at those two products and say to ourselves, "Eh, the cost comes to maybe $1500 to see the zing in these pretty pictures. Even then I'm probably paying more for the games, too."
I wonder what percentage of the market you represent. HDTV "market penetration" is maybe something like 25% of the worldwide TV market in a couple of stories I just Googled up... My sense is that Sony and MS wanted to catch the breaking wave of HDTV, but that they've overshot me personally. And I'm a hardcore DVD lover, a Netflix junkie and so on. There's just nothing to compel me to step on this treadmill of higher costs right now.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
That cable has been on that site since before the 360 even came out. It's preorder based on speculation.
If Sony doesn't exploit the loophole in GPL v2 to make PS3 Linux effectively useless, I'll eat my hat!
If they do, I'll eat a metaphorical hat...
They have more motivation this round though (user generation content to sell via the sony online service) which is why I have more belief in it being useful this time.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You are confusing component with composite. There is a world of difference.
Not at all, I can understand your own confusion because typically those boxes are indeed built to switch composite + L/R audio signals.
However all a component (not composite) cable really is is a cable with three RCA connectors at either end. If you've ever looked at the combo cables that carry a composite signal on yellow plus red & white jacks for audio - they too have three RCA jacks on either end.
I have used said combo cables for years for component signals, even as high as 1080i HD signals (I don't have a 1080p display yet). Composite cables are typically colored with red, green, and blue jacks so from the combo cable to the component inputs on a device I just match red to red, white to blue, and yellow to green (since in an analog component signal green is the lumenence channel).
I have also used those cheap composite/L/R switches you can buy at Walmart to switch component signals icnluding HD video, it works just fine. Component is nice because it's a pretty robust signal and you don't have to worry about signal loss with crappy cables much unless you are going a really long distance (think the max is something like 50ft!!).
Component actually has the virtue of failing more gracefully over longer distances than DVI/HDMI, because beign an all digital signal it can reach a dropoff point where there is not enough information in a signal to keep it alive, causing some really distracting video artifacts.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I slightly mistyped in the last message - the 1st paragraph should say in the middle "COMPONENT cables are colored R, G, and B. Not composite as I wrote, the combo cables are as I said yellow and Red + White. Standalone composite cables are typically yellow.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
We know the PS3 is said to be "about like a computer". We know it will integrate some browsing abilities.
So what OS are they going to use? They have already publcly stated they will ship with Linux, so it simply is to late to go with other options.
Sure some features are up in the air. And the degree to which Sony will let the users customize the Linux the PS3 ships with is in question. But there's a very high probability that it at least is making use of Linux, and the original point about how Sony is an enemy of free software. Again I say - if they are an enemy why are they using Linux?
Also as we are very close to November at this point, anything which has been shown is very likley to be final as there is no more time for redesign, since they have to be rigging the assembly lines right now and even the final firmware right now.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley