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Air Marshals Place Innocents on Secret Watch List
An anonymous reader writes "The Denver Channel 7 News reports that federal air marshals are operating under a quota for reporting a minimum number of suspicious travelers which is resulting in innocent people being placed on a secret government watch list. From the article: 'These unknowing passengers who are doing nothing wrong are landing in a secret government document called a Surveillance Detection Report, or SDR.'"
It was posted anonymously...
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
Well, I wouldn't call it a secret anymore.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Good thing I'm too broke to fly.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
The marshalls should just put everyone under the age of 5 on the "no fly" list. Marshall's meet their quota, and the flight is much more enjoyable for everyone else. Everybody wins.
I'm sort of curious as to why this was placed under IT, and not YRO or Politics...
-mrxak
Onions Will Kill You
Boy, color me shocked.
Sad that this "protection" we all pay for is causing headaches for people who are minding their own business.
Personally I disagree with quotas in law enforcement, as I do not think that they help catch the bad guys out there. I do think there is a lot more to the story than TFA indicates.
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
</sarcasm>
Seriously, I can't think of a worse system than quotas to put investigators under. It just screams Civil-Rights-Violation-Waiting-To-Happen.
Just got my ass chewed out for being under quota. Gotta keep my eyes open. But look ,over there, by the window. That frail old lady kind of looks suspicious to me. Got kind of an evil look about her. And what's that in her hands? OMG - Holy crap - knitting needles!! Quick, take her down she might just be trying to knit....
(wait for it)
AN AFGHAN!
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
This is always the problem with quotas. If you have a quota that you must meet, and your job can be done well but below that artificial quota, you "pad" it with stuff that no one will notice, just so you can meet the quota, even though you've done your job completely already.
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
What would you expect? It's not as if we have a true justice system here in America. A criminal breaks into a home and causes $2,000 worth of damage and what do we do? Feed him and take car of him in a jail while the homeowner is left to clean up the mess and insurance money (paid by the homeowner) takes care of the losses. Or, more often than not, simply let the criminal go with a warning. Then we spend our money falsely accusing innocent people just to keep up a "quota". Greed then drives what we like to think of as justice. It happens more than you think: e.g. officer's needing quotas for traffic violations & arrests and so caring more about their quota than justice in a certain situation. I know, it's not all bad and there are cops and agents that really DO care about justice. It's just the system that is messed up...
Homeland Security: Our budget is proportional to the number of terrorists we find. When there aren't enough terrorists, we make them.
Ayn Rand was an optimist.
Until you get the possessions of the people you denounce. I've got my eye on spiffy leather couch.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
It seems a little odd that these guys have such a vested financial interest in finding "something" every month. I'm sure it's just a method of weeding out the slackers who just want to sleep on all the flights and say 'everything was fine'. But couldn't they find a better way to check on these marshals? Like a secret shopper program or something? It works in retail.....
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
TFA also says that this system only exists in Vegas. They should have no trouble finding strange activity there!
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
So the Washington Post or NYT are the only reliable sources of information?
I'm very much worried about the reliablity of my sources also, but rejecting a story just because it isn't from a headlining news source?
That just seem as dead-brained as blindly believing anything anyone says.
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
So the Denver news is now a reliable source of information? Let's see some Washington Post or NYT article being linked to.
Yeah, them damn hicks out west don't know squat. Now then, care to explain what makes an eastern paper more credible?
What?
Ha! Everyone's doing something wrong. We just need to find out what it is.
The spirit of Tailgunner Joe lives on.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
How about you?
[neo con parody off]
"Innocent passengers are being entered into an international intelligence database as suspicious persons, acting in a suspicious manner on an aircraft ... and they did nothing wrong," said one federal air marshal.
2006.07.25 DenverChannel malsaid "unorthodox" as "suspicious". rectify.
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
Just how silly is that, I ask? How do you meet a quota when you're looking out for suspicious people? You declare someone suspicious who isn't, how else?
... well, there.
God, just how DUMB are those national security morons? If anything, the NSA makes me feel LESS safe when I'm in the US. I feel like I'm under constant surveillance, being a suspect for being
Is that what you want to accomplish, NSA? Is that the goal? Alienate the rest of the world, even those that used to LOVE your country, turn the rest of the world into your enemy so you can have perpetual war? The US are turning faster and faster into everything I hated about the communist system.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
That is utter and complete bullshit.
I am on that list. I don't know why; I have never been arrested or convicted or tried or anything else. I served honorably in the US Army. I fly all the time.
About 18 months ago, I got on this watch list. It isn't so secret if you are a traveller. You can't use the fancy-shmancy self-service kiosks. You have to wait for a representative to help you. They have to make phone calls. The entire process takes an addiotional 10-15 minutes of not only my time, but the service representative, as well.
There was some poor Thai girl in Bangkok. It was her second day on the job, and she freaked out when my name came up as I was checking in. It took them about 20 minutes to make the call to the US and get stuff squared away.
No, I have not been arrested because of it. But, as an innocent person, why am I singled out for bureaucratic harrasement? I am denied the conveniences of other citizens simply because of my name existing on a watch list.
So, I call bullshit.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
"All men are guilty. They're born innocent, but it doesn't last." -- from "le circle rouge" (1970)
The air marshals, whose identities are being concealed, told 7NEWS that they're required to submit at least one report a month. If they don't, there's no raise, no bonus, no awards and no special assignments.
If true, these people have just admitted they weren't subjecting innocent people to punishment because they'd lose their job otherwise and be unable to support their family -- an understandable, if still morally weak position. No, they did it because they wanted more money. Or a dental plan. Or a longer vacation. That's what's known as being stunning and embarassingly selfish.
At the risk of godwinning myself, what's that famous quote about the holocause that goes along the line of "there will always be number-crunchers behind the scenes eager to see if they can make the count even higher next time?"
The stereotypical image of the tin-foil hat donning conspiracy nut is finally laid to rest, the government really are watching!
This crap must have to happen every so many years. We had the Commie witch-hunt in the 50's (Ever listen to a radio play, "I Was A Communist For The FBI"?), Nixon's personal enemies list of the late 60's/early 70's (included well known subversive peace activist and pot smoker John Lennon), now under W. You know W's regime is loaded with old Cold Warriors, right? Some ideas die hard. If we don't have an emeny, we create one, thus keeping the public's attention on the War while we loot the treasury.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them." - Frederick Douglass
A couple of thoughts. 1. Sadly various 'US no fly lists' are being used by airlines in countries that don't yet have their own list -- e.g. Canada -- in an attempt to reduce liability. Meaning, the implications of this article are greater than some might realize. 2. A key question about no-fly lists is the criteria used to put people on it. Ideally, it should be transparent so, for instance, everyone out there with a criminal record isn't concerned every time they get on a plane that law enforcement officials will descend upon them. Beyond the quota issue, this article points to a series of systemic problems relating to the criteria used to make these lists, which from my reading seem to be: a. arbitrary b. left to individual discretion c. without oversight or review checks and balances d. unappealable, regardless of how flimsy the evidence is. As more and more countries draft their own no-fly lists, such issues are likely to grow in importance and become bigger problems within the international (rather just American) political sphere.
I do find it a bit odd that Air Marshalls can't find at least one suspitious-looking person on a flight over the course of a month.
Why? Just how many terrorists do you think are out there? And of them, how many will be trying to take over a plane? If there were even a handful trying this, then it would be all over the news (as it supports the government agenda). And if someone isn't trying to take over the plane then what on Earth makes them suspicious and worth putting on a watch list? Flying while asian? Reading Noam Chomsky? Not only is the government jumping at shadows, it's now got a quota of how many shadows you have to jump at each month?
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
There is an article linked to from that page about how horribly mismanaged the Federal Air Marshals Service is.
Technoli
This is your typical case of quantity being chosen instead of quality.
I think these guys are spending too much time looking for possible terrorists and not enough time on the real threats.
Like snakes.
What I'm really scared of is mothaf*cking snakes on mothaf*cking planes!
If this signature is witty enough, maybe somebody will like me.
the system is broken from the top down. the only solution is to format the goverment and reinstall. this image is corrupt.
-.no
This is in response to All of the Above rather than the direct parent comment.
In this book, they "killed" Montag at the end of the book by finding a random guy walking down the street and shooting him while the live cameras proclaimed that the "dangerous criminal" has been taken off the streets by the ever-vigilant government.
Simple smoke and mirror style politics. We need X number of criminals to justify actions A, B and C.
Obviously this does not apply to an Air Marshall who gets drunk and falls asleep on the plane but is the guy on the De Moines to Bend Oregon run going to find as many suspicious people as the guy on the NY to Boston run?
coming for the poor saps who were idiotic enough to go to the media while they were still employed by the Contractor/Agency. The Federal agency may have bid the contract out won't do anything different. They get to blame someone else for being a "bad apple."
The Marshalls just made the career limiting move of the rest of their *life* for what exactly?
For the next person that finds themselves in a similar situation, learn how to do this the right way.
1. If you disagree strongly enough, find another job.
2. While you are finding said job, get some professional help objectivly evaluating your options and creating a strategy.
3. Map out reasonable tactics and choose the plan that is best for you and your loved ones.
4. Execute plan and prepare for unexpected things. In general, the contractor you worked for will publicly discredit you and do what it can to punish you.
If you have done steps 1, 2, and 3 right, there's some protection from events in #4.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Actually getting lost in Washington DC is probably enough to get you on the list. I spent a night driving around in circles around the White House late at night looking for my hotel. Took me about 4 trips around it before I found my hotel. It was up a narrow street with a very small sign pointing to the street. The view of the sign was mostly blocked by a hedge. My consultant partner did the same thing, except it took him even more circles and he ended up being stopped by the Secret Service who directed him to the hotel. This was before 9/11. I imagine things would be worse now days, hopefully the Secret Service has figured out that they need to get that hotel's sign enlarged and remove a certain hedge or they will keep having to stop lost visitor's from circling the White House, and adding lots of innocent names to their watchlist. Garbage in garbage out, the more garbage they toss into the Federal database the less useful it is and the more likely real terrorists will actually get through.
Why? Because even if governments adhere to what we might call the "industry-average in mindless stupidity" governments can cause far more damage than most industries. From the article:
"Q: What kind of impact would it have for a flying individual to be named in an SDR?
A: That could have serious impact ... They could be placed on a watch list. They could wind up on databases that identify them as potential terrorists or a threat to an aircraft. It could be very serious," said Don Strange, a former agent in charge of air marshals in Atlanta. He lost his job attempting to change policies inside the agency."
Ok, this former agent lost his job because he tried to change policies inside the agency. Anyone want to bet this was over SDR quota? And what other enlightened "policies" are in effect? And yes ... such things will stick around ... if only because it's a bit hard to shop around for alternative governments.
Ok ... so putting someone's name in an SDR has potentially serious consequences for that person. Add to this the (probably MBA-driven) desire for "quantifiable targets" and see the result. From the article "Although the agency strongly denies any presence of a quota system, Las Vegas-based air marshals have produced documents that show their performance review is directly linked to producing SDRs.".
Great ... just great. That leaves us with only one option ... don't fly near the end of the month.
If any layer of the organization, the game becomes hitting the numbers set for it rather than achieving the mission of the organization, then chaos will ensue at that and all lower levels.
It may take the form of playing games with when sales can be booked as income. It may be mucking with projections. It may be slamming the phone on the customer to goose up the number of calls per hour you handle.
Measurable objectives are important, but they're only half the story. You need leadership too. Strong programs of performance measurement, in the absence of strong leadership, degenerate into numbers games that can be beaten.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
But seriously, could being in the US Army qualify? You have training which might be considered threatening? Maybe not, might depend on what you did in the Army. Demo expert? Hand to hand combat? Maybe your are considered an asset to the bad guys?
I was a 31V, cross-trained as a 31C. That is, I field-serviced two-way radios, and I did a little training as a RATT operator (radio teletype, for long-range communication). If the bad guys need a handset on a PRC-77 or their RC-524 replaced, I could do it. Not that I would.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I know a guy who is on the no-fly list. It's a real bitch, because his job requires him to fly a lot.
So, he goes to the airport, checks his luggage, deals with the BS of being on the list, and flys to his job.
Whereupon he gets his luggage, puts on his uniform, gets his piece, puts on his ID, gets in his plane, and takes off.
He's a commercial airline pilot - authorized to carry a pistol in the cockpit, and to fly a plane full of people.
But he cannot board a flight as a passenger without a bunch of BS because his name is on the No Fly list.
www.eFax.com are spammers
I'm sorry, which bias is this? The bias against putting innocent people on government watchlists to fill a quota?
It's probably posted because people here seem to care about civil rights and, in particular, about how they apply to domestic government surveilance. What's wrong with that?
this whole site slides further and further to the left every day
So? If the concept of civil liberty offends you, then I guess this isn't the site for you. Problem solved.
(I love how 'left' and 'liberal' are dirty words now, say what you want about the Republican party, but their PR is top notch)
sic transit gloria mundi
Gosh, what political agenda is that? The summary only says that Air Marshals are meeting an arbitrary quota by putting innocent people on the secret watch list. You think this is a right-left issue? Are you fucking nuts?
Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts.
It's relevant because the nerds who pay attention to this site are interested in the topic. Look, there are already almost 200 comments talking about it.
And how is simply putting the story on the site transparent bias? Because only lefties would be interested in reading a story about government monitoring? Please.
And on a wider topic, can I just tell you how freaking sick I am of reading jaded comments on every story about this or that is not worth of being posted to Slashdot? If you all don't like the stories posted IGNORE THE STORY AND DON'T READ IT or even START YOUR OWN DAMN SITE AND POST WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT.
you don't have anything to worry about right?
Isn't that what the willful violators of our civil rights always tell the public? This sort of blows that out of the water.
I don't even know where to start arguing with this.
A second management memo, also dated July 2004, said, "There may come an occasion when you just don't see anything out of the ordinary for a month at a time, but I'm sure that if you are looking for it, you'll see something."
Are we really doing that bad a job of "fighting it abroad" that there are enough terrorists flying around the country for the thousands of air marshals to file one report every month?
Too cheap to fly? Got a car? Love America and hate terrorists?
Sign up for Highway Watch brought to you by DHS and the American Trucking Association!
http://www.highwaywatch.com/newtoHWW/index.html
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
Fly Southwest - then they don't know who you are because it is open seating and they can't look you up based on seat number.
:-)
I fly SWA all the time and find they are usually ahead of schedule and I have never had a problem with them.
Yes - I know they are now testing to see if assigned seating would be faster, but it is only in the testing phase.
It's my understanding that the pilots and crew of a plane are told when an air marshall is on a plane and where he is sitting. If an air marshall wasn't doing his job and was, for example, "drunk and passed out" (as many people have posted as being a reason why quotas are implemented) wouldn't the flight crew report him to his superiors for repremand?
It seems as if there's already a check and balance: the flight crew.
So what's the real reason for the quotas? Budget? Do I even need to ask?
Ironically enough, the Air marshalls are basically ensuring they won't stop any terrorists. The list will become so bloated, cumbersome, invasive and obnoxious that people will stop taking it seriously. The real work of hunting down potential terrorists - that some of the marshalls did - will be drowned out by innocent people who looked at the lazy marshalls cross eyed.
Often, beurocracy cannot sustain its own weight. It expands and expands until it cannot do the purpose for which it was designed. Then it gets axed by a budget cutter, is reincarnated as lightweight version of itself, and expands until... you get the idea. It isn't a viscious cycle so much as a waste of resources and failed programs.
Seriously, here's an idea: take all those government parasites that harass airplane passengers, run eavesdropping programs, make threats to journalists, and violate the constitution in so many other ways, and drop them all in Pakistan with hunting rifles. Sooner or later, a group of them will have to stumble onto Bin Laden's cave. And voila, terrorism is dealt a serious blow, Americans are substantially less annoyed, and taxes can go down because the government is no longer paying a bunch of people to fail at making America safer.
It has always been there. And not just in the US, in many other democracy's At many places traffic policemen get a higher raise if they give more traffic tickets. So what do you have. Some poor schmuck who was crossing the signal and light went yellow get the boot. Its easier to ticket him, though the risk posed by some jerk weaving through lanes is much more. The most balatant misuse of this is in India. Set the speed limit to 80kmph. Everybody who hits 80+ be it 81kmph get a 400rs ticket. If somebody is doing 150, that chap also gets 400rs fine. But vehicles with no tail lights which actually pose a threat at night, are let go, because the fine is very very low in the books. At the end of the month, a percentage of fines collected is given to the cops. So rather than catch jerks who jump red lights, which would involve giving a chase and at the most give you a 100rs fine, its great to hide on an empty road with stupid speed limit(50kmph) knowing that someone doing 51 will definately come.
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Wasn't aware that I was, just saying that the Republican party (notice, the particular party, not a movement or an ideology) is doing a hell of a lot better at it. I mean, for gods sakes, the concept of "liberty" is a bad thing now.
I'm sure a neoconservative would disagree with you vehemently and say it's the other way around. Perhaps that's why I'm a Libertarian.
"Oh noes! That ideology shares concepts with what Cold War era propaganda taught me was teh devil!"
That has nothing to do with it, and quite frankly you're being silly. I personally dislike the very very ideology behind socialism and communism, although I certainly understand the draw they have for "the common people." What a pity that both ideologies require humans to go against human nature, which is why they are all doomed to failure. Capitalism in Republic is the only ideology that embraces and encourages human nature, which is why it's proven to be the most successful form of government thus far.
Just how freakin' black and white is your world?
Pretty freakin' black and white. You see, I don't bother trying to find moral equivalence or compassion for those who oppose me. People fall into three categories: those that are on "my" side, those that are against me, and those that are neutral. Those who are on my side deserve and receive whatever benefits I can give them. Those who are neutral receive neither favor nor opposition. Those who are against me are my enemies, and I seek to defeat them using whatever means are appropriate.
I'm sure this seems hopelessly Neanderthal to someone so cultured and nuanced as yourself. No doubt this kind of thinking is a complete enigma to you. The sad thing is that while people like you are so busy seeing shades of grey in every situation, people like me are actually taking action and getting things done and -- whether you like it or not -- looking out for your best interests. You won't recognize that, but there it is.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
... with this sort on thing happening I won't be travelling via the US next time I go to Europe.
I think I'd prefer to go via Japan and Russia now-a-days. Seriously, US citizens, it really _is_ time for a regime change in the White House. The Republicans seem to have taken too many pages out of the Nazi rule books for my liking.
All I did was try to enter the US on my existing E3 visa. Because I apparently can't enter on that visa unless I'm working for the employer during that trip, you can't enter on the E3. You need to be on the visa waiver program, not the E3. WTF? It's a visa! It's far, far harder to get than the VWP.
:( Not in the USA, not in Australia.
So I was made to fill out the visa waiver form, and by the time I got back, I found myself on the watchlist. Do the USA really want me to come live in the US and work towards their GDP? Or not?
I'll find out in the next three weeks what it exactly means to be on the watchlist. I'm flying all over the country, so if it does take more time, I will be REALLY pissed. If it means I get stopped in Australia, then I'm going to be REALLY REALLY pissed, as it's completely bogus. I had committed no crime
Andrew
ps. My day job is security. This is security theatre. The folks who run the TSA should be ashamed of themselves. They are no friends of the security industry.
Andrew van der Stock
I'm glad I live in China...
Anyone who opposes these watch list quotas hates freedom and productivity!
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
An unticketed person is allowed past security when they are at the airport to pick up a minor that has been flying as a "protected minor" (or some such terminology). Such minors are checked in by an adult at their point of origin, followed around by designated airline personnel for their entire flight and handed over to a designated adult at the destination. The designated adults are printed a special pass (not a real ticket since it won't let them on any flight) to let them past security to the gate to meet the airline personnel, fill out some paperwork and pick up the minor. I would assume the "younger brother" mentioned by the parent qualifies as such a minor.
What you are suggesting is called "Convict Lease", and is a legally fig-leafed form of slavery, and, it should go without saying, an egregious violation of human rights besides. Not only is it wrong on the face of it, it encourages the state to arrest and convict more people, to inflate the legal-slave supply.
To quote a current internet meme: Perhaps you've not thought your cunning plan all the way through.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt