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Air Marshals Place Innocents on Secret Watch List
An anonymous reader writes "The Denver Channel 7 News reports that federal air marshals are operating under a quota for reporting a minimum number of suspicious travelers which is resulting in innocent people being placed on a secret government watch list. From the article: 'These unknowing passengers who are doing nothing wrong are landing in a secret government document called a Surveillance Detection Report, or SDR.'"
It was posted anonymously...
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
Well, I wouldn't call it a secret anymore.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Good thing I'm too broke to fly.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
The marshalls should just put everyone under the age of 5 on the "no fly" list. Marshall's meet their quota, and the flight is much more enjoyable for everyone else. Everybody wins.
I'm sort of curious as to why this was placed under IT, and not YRO or Politics...
-mrxak
Onions Will Kill You
Boy, color me shocked.
Sad that this "protection" we all pay for is causing headaches for people who are minding their own business.
Personally I disagree with quotas in law enforcement, as I do not think that they help catch the bad guys out there. I do think there is a lot more to the story than TFA indicates.
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
</sarcasm>
Seriously, I can't think of a worse system than quotas to put investigators under. It just screams Civil-Rights-Violation-Waiting-To-Happen.
Just got my ass chewed out for being under quota. Gotta keep my eyes open. But look ,over there, by the window. That frail old lady kind of looks suspicious to me. Got kind of an evil look about her. And what's that in her hands? OMG - Holy crap - knitting needles!! Quick, take her down she might just be trying to knit....
(wait for it)
AN AFGHAN!
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
This is always the problem with quotas. If you have a quota that you must meet, and your job can be done well but below that artificial quota, you "pad" it with stuff that no one will notice, just so you can meet the quota, even though you've done your job completely already.
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
We don't need no rights. Thank you for the illegal surveillance, "Homeland Security"!
Fuck you.
What would you expect? It's not as if we have a true justice system here in America. A criminal breaks into a home and causes $2,000 worth of damage and what do we do? Feed him and take car of him in a jail while the homeowner is left to clean up the mess and insurance money (paid by the homeowner) takes care of the losses. Or, more often than not, simply let the criminal go with a warning. Then we spend our money falsely accusing innocent people just to keep up a "quota". Greed then drives what we like to think of as justice. It happens more than you think: e.g. officer's needing quotas for traffic violations & arrests and so caring more about their quota than justice in a certain situation. I know, it's not all bad and there are cops and agents that really DO care about justice. It's just the system that is messed up...
Homeland Security: Our budget is proportional to the number of terrorists we find. When there aren't enough terrorists, we make them.
Ayn Rand was an optimist.
Next time I fly I will make sure I am doing something just a bit suspicious so I can be in a government document. I think it would be cool actually.
Cause then I will be a part of history, when the government has to open these records (or more likely they are forced open during the next revolution)
The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
I want to know where the clubhouse is, I want to join! Seriously, it's like everything 'they' do makes it look more and more like there's a little club 'they' are all in and they just kind of poke their heads out the window every once in a while. I can see the 'no girlz allow'd' sign on the door now. Like pick every 5th kid who walks on the schoolyard to watch all day long. When I fly into the US they'll certainly be making full use of their resources watching me walk from my hotel to the 7-11 to buy some nachos to go with I-Robot on TBS. Whether it's true or not, everything that turns out to be true these days is just this goofy, so it fits the profile, lol. Maybe the strategy is to keep everyone guessing?
you want a funny protest? Get enough people to ring the White House and have them all just stand there and stare. Or just get 50 random people a day to do it for an hour each day. arrested!!
Until you get the possessions of the people you denounce. I've got my eye on spiffy leather couch.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
It seems a little odd that these guys have such a vested financial interest in finding "something" every month. I'm sure it's just a method of weeding out the slackers who just want to sleep on all the flights and say 'everything was fine'. But couldn't they find a better way to check on these marshals? Like a secret shopper program or something? It works in retail.....
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
TFA also says that this system only exists in Vegas. They should have no trouble finding strange activity there!
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
So the Washington Post or NYT are the only reliable sources of information?
I'm very much worried about the reliablity of my sources also, but rejecting a story just because it isn't from a headlining news source?
That just seem as dead-brained as blindly believing anything anyone says.
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
So the Denver news is now a reliable source of information? Let's see some Washington Post or NYT article being linked to.
Yeah, them damn hicks out west don't know squat. Now then, care to explain what makes an eastern paper more credible?
What?
Ha! Everyone's doing something wrong. We just need to find out what it is.
The spirit of Tailgunner Joe lives on.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
How about you?
[neo con parody off]
"Innocent passengers are being entered into an international intelligence database as suspicious persons, acting in a suspicious manner on an aircraft ... and they did nothing wrong," said one federal air marshal.
2006.07.25 DenverChannel malsaid "unorthodox" as "suspicious". rectify.
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
There's... something... on... the WING!
Badass Resumes
Just how silly is that, I ask? How do you meet a quota when you're looking out for suspicious people? You declare someone suspicious who isn't, how else?
... well, there.
God, just how DUMB are those national security morons? If anything, the NSA makes me feel LESS safe when I'm in the US. I feel like I'm under constant surveillance, being a suspect for being
Is that what you want to accomplish, NSA? Is that the goal? Alienate the rest of the world, even those that used to LOVE your country, turn the rest of the world into your enemy so you can have perpetual war? The US are turning faster and faster into everything I hated about the communist system.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
"So what are you suggesting as an alternative?" Space him if you have spaceships with working airlocks. Barring that, keelhauling will do just fine. Arrrr!
Where were you when the voynix came?
That is utter and complete bullshit.
I am on that list. I don't know why; I have never been arrested or convicted or tried or anything else. I served honorably in the US Army. I fly all the time.
About 18 months ago, I got on this watch list. It isn't so secret if you are a traveller. You can't use the fancy-shmancy self-service kiosks. You have to wait for a representative to help you. They have to make phone calls. The entire process takes an addiotional 10-15 minutes of not only my time, but the service representative, as well.
There was some poor Thai girl in Bangkok. It was her second day on the job, and she freaked out when my name came up as I was checking in. It took them about 20 minutes to make the call to the US and get stuff squared away.
No, I have not been arrested because of it. But, as an innocent person, why am I singled out for bureaucratic harrasement? I am denied the conveniences of other citizens simply because of my name existing on a watch list.
So, I call bullshit.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
It was a joke. A joke. The irony of making up a story about people making up stories... Ah, never mind.
While I agree that any kind of quota system isn't helping the system, I do find it a bit odd that Air Marshalls can't find at least one suspitious-looking person on a flight over the course of a month. Aren't these people flying pretty much all the time? I don't fly all that often but when I do there's usually at least one person who approaches the cockpit (trying to get to the bathroom maybe, but during a time when the cockpit door is open, or something). Maybe the policy is to prevent these guys from just sleeping all day on their assigned flights.
Again, quotas seem stupid, and I don't think suspitious activity of a fairly benign nature should put you on some kind of "banned for life" list, I'm just trying to see the issue from all sides.
-mrxak
Onions Will Kill You
So what if you get on a list, they can track your every movment as soon as you use your atm or credit card, they know what you eat, what you like and can create an exact profile of you without ever laying eyes on you so it doesn't matter if they do it on plane as well.
So i'm asking, SO What? People want protection on airplanes, if i'm put on a list but at the same time there is guy with a gun that could potentially disarm a terrorist on a plane,i'm all for it if i can land safely and enjoy life.
Protection comes at a price, they cant know for sure who's a risk and who's not, is it a caucasion, ans asian or middle east man, you never know so they have to take a guess and if by doing what they do they come upon a drug dealer, pedophile or other criminal, well i say thankya Big Big gunslinger!
" The US are turning faster and faster into everything I hated about the communist system."
We don't yet have slackjawed leaders with eyebrows that look like sewn-on welcome mats, waiting queue line 2 days just to get a box of powdered milk, and the glory of yearly weapon parades on mainstreet. Also, Bush does not yet get in a snit if you don't introduce him as The Great Father of All the Peoples. But we're working on it, give us SOME credit. We're also working hard to get rid of that pesky "freedom on the Internet" thing, but some $#@##@.||.--@.. NO CARRIER
Where were you when the voynix came?
I don't know if quotas are always ineffective I think quotas increase effectiveness for law enforcement where the expected number of law violations is realistically going to be greater than the set quota, like with traffic violations. But with something like terrorist activity where the expected result of terrorist monitoring is one or two suspicious people, tops, the quota is just going to falsely inflate the amount of suspicious behavior reported and going to mislead authorities and ultimately hurt us all. They should be instead concentrating on hiring and training people who are quick and alert - this is a job that takes skill in order to be able to identify true threats.
"All men are guilty. They're born innocent, but it doesn't last." -- from "le circle rouge" (1970)
is that once you're on, it's almost impossible to get off of it.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
The air marshals, whose identities are being concealed, told 7NEWS that they're required to submit at least one report a month. If they don't, there's no raise, no bonus, no awards and no special assignments.
If true, these people have just admitted they weren't subjecting innocent people to punishment because they'd lose their job otherwise and be unable to support their family -- an understandable, if still morally weak position. No, they did it because they wanted more money. Or a dental plan. Or a longer vacation. That's what's known as being stunning and embarassingly selfish.
At the risk of godwinning myself, what's that famous quote about the holocause that goes along the line of "there will always be number-crunchers behind the scenes eager to see if they can make the count even higher next time?"
The stereotypical image of the tin-foil hat donning conspiracy nut is finally laid to rest, the government really are watching!
This crap must have to happen every so many years. We had the Commie witch-hunt in the 50's (Ever listen to a radio play, "I Was A Communist For The FBI"?), Nixon's personal enemies list of the late 60's/early 70's (included well known subversive peace activist and pot smoker John Lennon), now under W. You know W's regime is loaded with old Cold Warriors, right? Some ideas die hard. If we don't have an emeny, we create one, thus keeping the public's attention on the War while we loot the treasury.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them." - Frederick Douglass
What is truly remarkable that the article uses the word suspicious, the summary uses the word suspicious and yet you still spell it suspitious more than once.
Please stop showing the world how lousy our public school system is. I thank you in advance for your cooperation.
...you'd be on their shitlist too.
Me? I'm a DIY electronics freak with a little too much gear and a motormouth to go.
If I'd be on that plane - they'd have a field day on me. Kind of makes me happy living where I do - phew!
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
A couple of thoughts. 1. Sadly various 'US no fly lists' are being used by airlines in countries that don't yet have their own list -- e.g. Canada -- in an attempt to reduce liability. Meaning, the implications of this article are greater than some might realize. 2. A key question about no-fly lists is the criteria used to put people on it. Ideally, it should be transparent so, for instance, everyone out there with a criminal record isn't concerned every time they get on a plane that law enforcement officials will descend upon them. Beyond the quota issue, this article points to a series of systemic problems relating to the criteria used to make these lists, which from my reading seem to be: a. arbitrary b. left to individual discretion c. without oversight or review checks and balances d. unappealable, regardless of how flimsy the evidence is. As more and more countries draft their own no-fly lists, such issues are likely to grow in importance and become bigger problems within the international (rather just American) political sphere.
I do find it a bit odd that Air Marshalls can't find at least one suspitious-looking person on a flight over the course of a month.
Why? Just how many terrorists do you think are out there? And of them, how many will be trying to take over a plane? If there were even a handful trying this, then it would be all over the news (as it supports the government agenda). And if someone isn't trying to take over the plane then what on Earth makes them suspicious and worth putting on a watch list? Flying while asian? Reading Noam Chomsky? Not only is the government jumping at shadows, it's now got a quota of how many shadows you have to jump at each month?
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
There is an article linked to from that page about how horribly mismanaged the Federal Air Marshals Service is.
Technoli
This is your typical case of quantity being chosen instead of quality.
I think these guys are spending too much time looking for possible terrorists and not enough time on the real threats.
Like snakes.
What I'm really scared of is mothaf*cking snakes on mothaf*cking planes!
If this signature is witty enough, maybe somebody will like me.
the system is broken from the top down. the only solution is to format the goverment and reinstall. this image is corrupt.
-.no
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
This is in response to All of the Above rather than the direct parent comment.
In this book, they "killed" Montag at the end of the book by finding a random guy walking down the street and shooting him while the live cameras proclaimed that the "dangerous criminal" has been taken off the streets by the ever-vigilant government.
Simple smoke and mirror style politics. We need X number of criminals to justify actions A, B and C.
Obviously this does not apply to an Air Marshall who gets drunk and falls asleep on the plane but is the guy on the De Moines to Bend Oregon run going to find as many suspicious people as the guy on the NY to Boston run?
...I anticipate would never succeed in creating a (working) computer program or come up with a logic chain of mathematical statements. A _quota_ for such a thing?! How flawed isn't that? Like they could know that the number of terrorist (or tourists or whatever they are chasing) always will be greater than, or equal to, the number mentioned in that quota.
Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
"The day Bush uses his shoe as a gavel, then we know we are doomed"
History does repeat itself. Just a couple of weeks ago, I saw the Great Father of the Peoples of South America (Hugo Chavez) give a speech on C-SPAN. He actually said that he would bury the United States. Oddly enough, he kept his shoes on. Maybe just so no one would cause him Shoeless 'Go.
Where were you when the voynix came?
"waiting queue line 2 days just to get a box of powdered milk,"
No, in USA, you wait 5 hours in line just for piece of paper that say you can drive car!
Yeah, them damn hicks out west don't know squat.
Excuse me, but we "hicks" are in the south, not west, thank you very much.
If a baby duck is a "duckling," why would anyone want to eat "dumplings?"
The problem is we keep waging these silly ubiquitous wars. If we fight everything we will win nothing. How can we expect to win if what we are fighting is not even clearly defined?
We have a war on terrorism, a war on drugs, a war on cancer, a war on fast food. When will it end!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I do find it a bit odd that Air Marshalls can't find at least one suspitious-looking person on a flight over the course of a month.
What about 100?
We don't know how high these quotas are.
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
coming for the poor saps who were idiotic enough to go to the media while they were still employed by the Contractor/Agency. The Federal agency may have bid the contract out won't do anything different. They get to blame someone else for being a "bad apple."
The Marshalls just made the career limiting move of the rest of their *life* for what exactly?
For the next person that finds themselves in a similar situation, learn how to do this the right way.
1. If you disagree strongly enough, find another job.
2. While you are finding said job, get some professional help objectivly evaluating your options and creating a strategy.
3. Map out reasonable tactics and choose the plan that is best for you and your loved ones.
4. Execute plan and prepare for unexpected things. In general, the contractor you worked for will publicly discredit you and do what it can to punish you.
If you have done steps 1, 2, and 3 right, there's some protection from events in #4.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Does anybody know what the requirements are to get off the list, or if there is a timeout period?
This whole thing stinks of tyranny to me. I know! I'll make my next vacation a roadtrip, and skip the airports altogether. Wait a minute...nope, that won't work.
Ok, how about this: I'll stay home, and just catch up with my friends via phone calls. No, that's no good either.
Ok guys, help me out. I know I'm just a wacky conspiracy theorist, but I'm willing to change. How do I go about a summer vacation without subjecting myself to Government inspection?
barack to the future?
Why? Because even if governments adhere to what we might call the "industry-average in mindless stupidity" governments can cause far more damage than most industries. From the article:
"Q: What kind of impact would it have for a flying individual to be named in an SDR?
A: That could have serious impact ... They could be placed on a watch list. They could wind up on databases that identify them as potential terrorists or a threat to an aircraft. It could be very serious," said Don Strange, a former agent in charge of air marshals in Atlanta. He lost his job attempting to change policies inside the agency."
Ok, this former agent lost his job because he tried to change policies inside the agency. Anyone want to bet this was over SDR quota? And what other enlightened "policies" are in effect? And yes ... such things will stick around ... if only because it's a bit hard to shop around for alternative governments.
Ok ... so putting someone's name in an SDR has potentially serious consequences for that person. Add to this the (probably MBA-driven) desire for "quantifiable targets" and see the result. From the article "Although the agency strongly denies any presence of a quota system, Las Vegas-based air marshals have produced documents that show their performance review is directly linked to producing SDRs.".
Great ... just great. That leaves us with only one option ... don't fly near the end of the month.
Pink Floyd fans go on a different list.
it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
As more and more countries draft their own no-fly lists, such issues are likely to grow in importance and become bigger problems within the international (rather just American) political sphere
Good!!! This will eventually take care of the whole immigration debate!!
Opinion:=TMyOpinion.Create(Me);
What's the big deal? I for one have nothing to hide!
Fuck.
-Peter
I flew from Burbank to Atlanta, and the guy who sat next to me was either an Air Marshall, or one roughneck (buff/scrappy) lookin' blue collar business man, wearing blue jeans, a t-shirt, and harley-style shit-kicker boots.
There was no way that the guy could afford 1st class. He also ate his food as if it were his daily meal. Maybe the guy travels a lot, but probability leans towards the Air Marshall conclusion.
He even looked like one of the guys on the discovery channel show about Air Marshalls, it was pretty obvious.
I took photos of some clouds too, so now I'm probably on that list. *weaksauce*
the only permanence in existence, is the impermanence of existence.
Denver channel 7 has won a few Peabody awards, so it's not completely fluff. I don't get channel 7 myself (rabbit ears) but it seems to have a good reputation.
Man, you really need that seminar!
Where are all the "if you aren't doing anything wrong, you have no need to worry" comments?
I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.
There are just those we have not found guilty yet.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
If any layer of the organization, the game becomes hitting the numbers set for it rather than achieving the mission of the organization, then chaos will ensue at that and all lower levels.
It may take the form of playing games with when sales can be booked as income. It may be mucking with projections. It may be slamming the phone on the customer to goose up the number of calls per hour you handle.
Measurable objectives are important, but they're only half the story. You need leadership too. Strong programs of performance measurement, in the absence of strong leadership, degenerate into numbers games that can be beaten.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Double plusgood bellyfeel. Grandparent post is double plusgood, too.
It must be Windows. It needs half a gig of RAM and a hardware-accelerated graphics card just to run Solitaire.
Why force false-positives like this by having quotas?
The Marshall's are supposed to be looking for people who present a danger to others - forcing them to deal with stupid administrative bullshit like a quota for how many suspicious traveller's they report does nothing to make anyone safer.
It's like giving soldiers a quota of people they need to kill or something stupid like that.
If there's nobody suspicious on the flight, then doesn't that mean the system is working (or that the people who would otherwise be suspicious have figured out how to avoid detection)?
These are law enforcement officers, not salesmen. The people responsible for setting up the quota system need to be shitcanned immediately.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
But seriously, could being in the US Army qualify? You have training which might be considered threatening? Maybe not, might depend on what you did in the Army. Demo expert? Hand to hand combat? Maybe your are considered an asset to the bad guys?
I was a 31V, cross-trained as a 31C. That is, I field-serviced two-way radios, and I did a little training as a RATT operator (radio teletype, for long-range communication). If the bad guys need a handset on a PRC-77 or their RC-524 replaced, I could do it. Not that I would.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
after all, they are only obeying orders, that's what matters, as long as the system functions in the one correct way the current flavour of the month deems is appropriate.
then everythings ok, after all, following orders means that the american way of life is protected.
etc.. etc..
This is the point at which I should make a quote from some random book and talk about slippery slopes, but why bother, -1, redundant.
~Idarubicin
Do a google search, KMGH's investigative team have won plenty of awards for investigative reporting. A couple peabody awards, IRE award, Dupont-Columbia award, NHA award, SPJ award, and several emmys. That's not everything, but what i found with a quick google search. the main investigator has appeared on 20/20, Good Morning America, and a few CNN broadcasts.
They broke the Air Force sex scandal story and did reporting on internet pedophiles before Dateline started broadcasting it every week. Try to get a few facts before you go around not believing things just because it's not a "big name". Didn't Blair and Finkel make up things for their articles while working for the NYT?
"Tread softly because you tread on my dreams"
I know a guy who is on the no-fly list. It's a real bitch, because his job requires him to fly a lot.
So, he goes to the airport, checks his luggage, deals with the BS of being on the list, and flys to his job.
Whereupon he gets his luggage, puts on his uniform, gets his piece, puts on his ID, gets in his plane, and takes off.
He's a commercial airline pilot - authorized to carry a pistol in the cockpit, and to fly a plane full of people.
But he cannot board a flight as a passenger without a bunch of BS because his name is on the No Fly list.
www.eFax.com are spammers
I'm sorry, which bias is this? The bias against putting innocent people on government watchlists to fill a quota?
It's probably posted because people here seem to care about civil rights and, in particular, about how they apply to domestic government surveilance. What's wrong with that?
this whole site slides further and further to the left every day
So? If the concept of civil liberty offends you, then I guess this isn't the site for you. Problem solved.
(I love how 'left' and 'liberal' are dirty words now, say what you want about the Republican party, but their PR is top notch)
sic transit gloria mundi
Gosh, what political agenda is that? The summary only says that Air Marshals are meeting an arbitrary quota by putting innocent people on the secret watch list. You think this is a right-left issue? Are you fucking nuts?
Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts.
"Just doing their job" is what allowed the atrocities of WWII death camps to occur. I very strongly believe that there were good people in the Nazi organization that realized the insanity of what was going on and tried to do something about it. Whether they were killed or just fired, I'm sure they were removed from that decision making position.
The article refers to an ex-marshal who was apparently removed for attempting to change the policies. 2 sides and all that, but if all people are removed for trying to change things, how long will it be before we lose all checks and balances? Isn't that the core of what makes us different from Nazi Germany?
It's relevant because the nerds who pay attention to this site are interested in the topic. Look, there are already almost 200 comments talking about it.
And how is simply putting the story on the site transparent bias? Because only lefties would be interested in reading a story about government monitoring? Please.
And on a wider topic, can I just tell you how freaking sick I am of reading jaded comments on every story about this or that is not worth of being posted to Slashdot? If you all don't like the stories posted IGNORE THE STORY AND DON'T READ IT or even START YOUR OWN DAMN SITE AND POST WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT.
Maybe there's some good discussion to be had from it?
The question is how large of a dragnet you cast. Here are a couple of trends that concern me though.
(1) I've increasing been hearing police forces say that minor non-violent offences are 'gateway crimes' for terrorism. While this is a very convenient way to try to apply anti-terrorism measures to all citizen's, the civil liberty implications terrify me.
(2) Once you start making the criteria more inclusive, other groups such as people with mental illness or such may be included.
(3) Overall, the increasing marginalization of more and more people will likely create a large legal underclass where people with unpopular political views may either (a) find themselves put or (b) worry that they'll eventually find themselves put. Meaning, such an arbtirary, non-transparent list -- butressed on by permanent retention practices -- could become a new tool for the state to exert political control on people.
word! i guess u could stick with the them and say this dudes Ignorance is Bliss!
eep, im dropping crappy jokes, quick, put me on the crappy jokes list.
g00p.
you don't have anything to worry about right?
Isn't that what the willful violators of our civil rights always tell the public? This sort of blows that out of the water.
I don't even know where to start arguing with this.
A second management memo, also dated July 2004, said, "There may come an occasion when you just don't see anything out of the ordinary for a month at a time, but I'm sure that if you are looking for it, you'll see something."
Are we really doing that bad a job of "fighting it abroad" that there are enough terrorists flying around the country for the thousands of air marshals to file one report every month?
What makes you think they arent properly trained? Perhaps, - and this might sound absolutely crazy - but perhaps there just arent that many terrorists flying domestically in the USA!
I know that sounds completely crazy, not sure what i was thinking in that last sentance. Its a post 9/11 world after all...
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
Too cheap to fly? Got a car? Love America and hate terrorists?
Sign up for Highway Watch brought to you by DHS and the American Trucking Association!
http://www.highwaywatch.com/newtoHWW/index.html
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
Fly Southwest - then they don't know who you are because it is open seating and they can't look you up based on seat number.
:-)
I fly SWA all the time and find they are usually ahead of schedule and I have never had a problem with them.
Yes - I know they are now testing to see if assigned seating would be faster, but it is only in the testing phase.
I didn't think so, but I continue to be proven wrong time and time again as this whole site slides further and further to the left every day.
Slashdot generally leans left, but this article is not evidence of that. It's just the logical extension of traffic cops writing tickets to meet quotas, and I have no doubt the same thing would be going on under a Democratic administration. Conservatives are supposed to be distrustful of inflexible bureaucracies and centralized government power, but sadly many have abandoned those principles because "our guys" are in charge.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
"Good thing I'm too broke to fly" parent modded insightful (I liked it!) while this ("Secret government list? Well, I wouldn't call it a secret anymore.") is modded funny.
I think we've been infiltrated by the air marsha^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^[no carrier]
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
So far it only works on slashdot
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Going to Defcon and/or pre-CMP Blackhat would put you on those kind of lists ;). Heck, you could spiral a cable around a wireless antenna next to a laptop computer in the bag and expect to be inspected.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
They'll blame someone. They have to.
I once worked at a company where the executive managers blamed another executive that died of cancer for their woes.
That's just what people do.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
I love how 'left' and 'liberal' are dirty words now, say what you want about the Republican party, but their PR is top notch
You act like the left hasn't demonized the term "neocon" to death. Excuse me, Mr. Pot? Your friend Kettle is calling.
If liberals don't want to be "dirty words" then perhaps they ought to stop associating themselves with ideologies more akin to Marxist/Communist thinking. Being pink on the inside yet dressing yourself up as a "progressive liberal" isn't fooling anyone.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
It's my understanding that the pilots and crew of a plane are told when an air marshall is on a plane and where he is sitting. If an air marshall wasn't doing his job and was, for example, "drunk and passed out" (as many people have posted as being a reason why quotas are implemented) wouldn't the flight crew report him to his superiors for repremand?
It seems as if there's already a check and balance: the flight crew.
So what's the real reason for the quotas? Budget? Do I even need to ask?
After six years of fun fun fun with ole' Dubya... lots of ./'rs are simply fed-fucking-up no matter WHAT their political affiliation. In fact, I'd wager that a very large portion of the whole wide world (and not just the terrorist-speaking parts) are sick and tired of the Bush Admonishtration... that goes for "Shut your fucking pie-hole or I'll shoot you in the face!" Cheney too.
For myself, I really can't wait until Bedtime for Bonzo is over and the U.S. can finally start to pull itself together. The last six years have been remarkably like getting slipped roofies by your prom date and then waking up to discover him and the whole football team having a go.
So, you assert that Slashdot is moving to the left-- could be-- its possible-- on the other hand it might also be true that the whole country-- indeed the whole world-- is busy sliding _away_ from the right. You know, I'm not really FOR Kerry or the Democrats, just ANYBODY BUT BUSH! And this time around that will include the Rephooligans too.
All someone slick and savvy would have to do at this point to win an election is get up there and say "I'm not a Republican. I'm not for Bush or Cheney. And I'm not a Democrat either. I think they're all a bunch of scumbagging liars. If I'm elected I'm going to reach out to the people-- the REAL people and find the very best regular people who have NO POLITICAL AFFILIATION to advise me and help me run the country. And furthermore, if I could be so bold as to offer a bit of advice, I'd recommend you boot out all those no-good Senatwhores and Congress critters too. Elect some HONEST citizens. People who WORK for a living and don't have ties to the CORPORATE PUPPET-MASTERS and WEALTHY BASTARD ELITISTS. There are 250 _MILLION_ PEOPLE in this fine United States. How come we only get to choose from TWO of them to run our country? Elect good people. Elect HONEST people. Send them to Washington to clean house and THROW THE BUMS OUT! That's the PEOPLE'S HOUSE-- that's OUR HOUSE-- How DARE they come into OUR HOUSE and SHIT ON THE CARPET."
That's all it would take and that person would be elected by a landslide.
It ain't a left or right thing. Its just a "tired of taking it up the ass" thing.
So just consider that next time you're busy doing the Texas goose-step and raising your arm in a cheery "Heil Dubya!"
Ironically enough, the Air marshalls are basically ensuring they won't stop any terrorists. The list will become so bloated, cumbersome, invasive and obnoxious that people will stop taking it seriously. The real work of hunting down potential terrorists - that some of the marshalls did - will be drowned out by innocent people who looked at the lazy marshalls cross eyed.
Often, beurocracy cannot sustain its own weight. It expands and expands until it cannot do the purpose for which it was designed. Then it gets axed by a budget cutter, is reincarnated as lightweight version of itself, and expands until... you get the idea. It isn't a viscious cycle so much as a waste of resources and failed programs.
Seriously, here's an idea: take all those government parasites that harass airplane passengers, run eavesdropping programs, make threats to journalists, and violate the constitution in so many other ways, and drop them all in Pakistan with hunting rifles. Sooner or later, a group of them will have to stumble onto Bin Laden's cave. And voila, terrorism is dealt a serious blow, Americans are substantially less annoyed, and taxes can go down because the government is no longer paying a bunch of people to fail at making America safer.
At the risk of godwinning myself, what's that famous quote about the holocause that goes along the line of "there will always be number-crunchers behind the scenes eager to see if they can make the count even higher next time?"
What's the point of playing if you don't keep score?
"My God...it's full of trolls!"
It has always been there. And not just in the US, in many other democracy's At many places traffic policemen get a higher raise if they give more traffic tickets. So what do you have. Some poor schmuck who was crossing the signal and light went yellow get the boot. Its easier to ticket him, though the risk posed by some jerk weaving through lanes is much more. The most balatant misuse of this is in India. Set the speed limit to 80kmph. Everybody who hits 80+ be it 81kmph get a 400rs ticket. If somebody is doing 150, that chap also gets 400rs fine. But vehicles with no tail lights which actually pose a threat at night, are let go, because the fine is very very low in the books. At the end of the month, a percentage of fines collected is given to the cops. So rather than catch jerks who jump red lights, which would involve giving a chase and at the most give you a 100rs fine, its great to hide on an empty road with stupid speed limit(50kmph) knowing that someone doing 51 will definately come.
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
So it's stunningly selfish to want a dental plan to keep your teeth from rotting out of your mouth? To want your salary to have a chance to keep up with inflation? To want a better lot in life than what you happen to have at the moment? Then book me Dano.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
Excuse me. I'm the son of an Okie. And I live in California.
A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.
Well there are lots of ways to accomplish the things you mention (pay for dental care, keep up with inflation, improve your standard of living). And lots of those ways are illegal or involve harming other people. I'd say that it's a pretty tough argument to say that you are justified in harming other people in order to get bonuses. The primary responsibility lies with the agents that choose to embellish or report people that didn't do anything wrong. They should simply refuse to do so out of a sense of morality, and try to change the policy through the proper channels (as well as set an example for other agents that you don't have to give in and make stuff up). Unchallenged corruption is corrosive and spreads like wildfire.
Of course that doesn't absolve the bone headed managers that are measuring performance on what are ultimately random occurences. And for little more reason than the ease of counting the number of reports per month and using that as a performance metric. The truely unfortunate thing I suppose is that there's no way this will get changed without abuse occurring (now that the public has reason to fear being unjustly added to their Watch List). We probably just wouldn't care that much if the only thing happening was some dutiful agents missing out on some bonuses or special assignments through no fault of their own.
"I vas only following orders...", eh? I thought we already established that was not a valid defense of any action.
Then, no one would be the wiser.
Public flogging.
seriously.
The other messed up part is that if the theif hurts himself on something that was either a trap and/or obviously unsafe he can then sue the homeowner!
I know of one person who, having been robbed several times, simply had his friend take his car, then with the lights out he sat in his appartment by the fire escape and waited, when the perp came in for thirds this guy blew him apart with a 10 guage and slug ammo. Can't say I blame him in a way.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
and that's the whole point isn't it, I don't know anything about german law circa early thirties, but it wouldn't be suprising if there was some kind of checks and balances for the way the country would work.
Ah well, we don't need the german constitution anyway, lets just get rid of the parliament, lets get rid of anyone or anything that doesn't think the obviously correct way, lets get rid of those who have become innapropriate or in some other way inconvenient to the national "need" who needs those old rules any more, look how prosperous germany becomes now that the "undesirables" who dragged the nation down are out of the way, look how wonderful the nation has become, look how great things are now we are getting the land that "belongs" to us back, look at the shiny new roads - ignore the blood that has been concreted over to make them, they were enemies of germany anyway.
Never mind that this journey into righteousness leads into straight into hell, and everyone gets to play in world war 2.
As ever, the consequences of this nonsense only applies to those powerless to avoid them, in the short term. But, you know, freedom, way of life, it's for everyone's good, why don't they understand, why do they hate freedom?
And suddenly I think of this:
"When they came for the Jews, I said nothing because I wasn't one;
when they came for the gypsies, I said nothing because I wasn't one;
when they came for the homosexuals, I said nothing because I wasn't one;
when they came for me, there was nobody left to say anything..."
So where are we now, what are we on the brink of, will those who own the game temper the potential of their greed and hubris? Or will they continue to enjoy their god given right to do whatever the hell they want?
Tinfoil hat? I hope so, otherwise the last thing that folk remember will be the quote above.
I'm sure Microsoft and Diebold would be glad to provide the new operating system.
7News has a link from that article to another article about air marshals protesting a different set of regulations, one which directly endangers passengers. One air marshal quoted in the article has already lost his job for working within the system to get things fixed. Congress investigated and issued a report that also criticized TSA management. TSA management continues to ignore both Congress and their employees.
Basically, the TSA is preventing air marhals from being anonymous.
I respect the air marshals who are risking unemployment because they see a safety problem.
I've added this secret government list to my secret list of secret government lists. I have got a few non-secret government lists on my secret secret government list list, but hey, I have quotas too ya know.
I also have a few secret non-government lists on it, and a few secret government non-lists... and a couple of internets.
The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
You might have a pretty common name. To avoid any appearance of (God Forbid!) racial profiling the List is based on name only and no other physical characteristics, so if you are named "Joe Brown" and some dipshit named "Joe Brown" made a stink about taking his Leatherman on a flight siz months ago in some other city, you're going to be on the list too.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Well done, friend citizen. You have been promoted to ultra-violet. Please report to the nearest termination center immediately.
Ooops, wrong universe.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
The sad part is that those who do read Systemantics are also doomed to make every mistake in the book.
Worse yet, the US Government is one of the biggest examples of every mistake in the book.
The federal government IS "the terrorist". The US is under the rule of murderous despots, who got in power by hijacking the vote, bribing and blackmailing high level officials, co-opting the few people necessary to control the bulk of the mass media(propoganda), and brainwashing the gun toters under their control that their *only* duty is to follow the orders of the coup plotters.
The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize. It does not matter if the people being terrorized are "guilty" of anything or not, what matters is that all the citizens OBEY ORDERS WITHOUT QUESTION. You WILL meekly submit to random checkpoints, searches at the airport, having your property seized-whatever they say. You will not "protest" except in designated "zones". And etc, the whole nine yards. check, this is accomplished now, for 99% of the population-all good little herd critters. They have the gun toters terrorized into following all orders, they have the citizenry terrorized into following orders, they have about all it takes it appears.
The second part is, once they get into the mass culling-which all police state dictatorships eventually do, ALL of them, history has shown no exceptions, it's handy to have a list to work off of for the steroid pumped up mouth breathers they send out for the pick ups. If it is 10% or 20% of the population-they don't care, less "useless eaters" for them to manage. More terrorism for the remainder, keeps them even more cowed.
Think I am joking about this? Not in the least...it's going to happen, too. These demons kill people daily to get their way, 24/7/365, what makes people think they will stop or slow down?
It's OVER, the coup plotters won. Whether or not they will hang in for a long time is the only remaining variable now. There is no 'voting" these creatures away, and at the tippy top levels, both Ds and Rs are involved, those little dramas on TV are to keep the plebes amused and thinking that there is somehow a 'government' they have some say in.
I find it impressively short-sighted that you're proposing this in a discussion of an article called "Air Marshals Place Innocents on Secret Watch List". Unless you really believe it's fine for anyone to be flogged at the whim of the secret police. I guess I could see it if you just like being flogged, sure.
At the rist of godwinning myself as well, I am sure the guards in the concentration camps used a similar argument to justify their actions to themselves and others. You are agreeing to their persecution of their fellow citizens for MONEY? What kind of morally bankrupt POS are you?
I believe the phrase is comfy chair. :-)
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Maybe the policy is to prevent these guys from just sleeping all day on their assigned flights.
No, that can't be it.
Just trying to open someone's head! I mean "mind!" Open someone's mind, um, to the possibilities! With explosives!
I think next time I'm going to arrive 3 hours early, and get wasted in the airport bar to get the edge off...
Namaste
If neocons don't want to be "dirty words" then perhaps they ought to stop associating themselves with ideologies more akin to facist/totalitarian thinking. Being facist on the inside yet dressing yourself up as a "compassionate conservative" isn't fooling anyone.
To the conservatives, this is a right-left issue. To them, everything is a right-left issue.
So, this person committed premeditated murder? I'm all for self-defense, but blowing somebody away simply because they're stealing your property is a bit extreme. I'm pretty sure only Texas follows the "castle doctrine" ("a man's home is his castle"), and even there I doubt the cops would look fondly on a plan to kill someone, rather than responding with more reasonable force. Detaining the burglar until the police arrive is one thing; killing someone is taking things far out of hand.
Sure, theft is an asshole thing to do, but you can't kill someone just because they're an asshole. It's people like this who give honest gun owners a bad name. Deadly force should only be used when there is an obvious danger to someone's life, that can't be averted any other way. The burglar might have been an asshole, but the shooter is a murderer.
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
The experiment ended 20 minutes later, when one of the psychiatrists arrested the other one.
With an indeterminate end point, the government can keep people on a war footing indefinitely and do whatever they like.
You act like the left hasn't demonized the term "neocon" to death.
Wasn't aware that I was, just saying that the Republican party (notice, the particular party, not a movement or an ideology) is doing a hell of a lot better at it. I mean, for gods sakes, the concept of "liberty" is a bad thing now.
If liberals don't want to be "dirty words" then perhaps they ought to stop associating themselves with ideologies more akin to Marxist/Communist thinking.
"Oh noes! That ideology shares concepts with what Cold War era propaganda taught me was teh devil!"
Just how freakin' black and white is your world?
sic transit gloria mundi
Like the Maine State trooper told my mom, many years ago;
:-)
"No, Ma'am, I don't have a quota. They let me write all the tickets I want."
Sure, TFA lines up nicely with our well-considered mistrust of gummint, agencies, police in general, and the DHS in particular. But quotas?
BAHAHAHAHAHA!
It's just dumb from every angle. Even for the Feds, it's dumb. Not to mention I'm wondering how most people get on the list. Suspicious travel patterns? Destinations? Known associates?
And the marshals have to submit ONE name a month? Sheesh, I could give them two or three a day, and not even read the newspaper. Here's a freebie: Pat Buchanan.
This is trolling of the highest order. I'm laughing. Conspiracy theories are high humor!
Really, this is too funny!
rick
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
The article mentions an "agency", "federal agency". What "agency" please?
Did I miss something?
Then he should be charged with first degree murder. Premeditated much?
Okay, i'm gonna add my little experience with no-fly lists.
A little over a year ago, I was in england about ready to head home, heading to the gate after checking in, when I reach the gate, I am told that i will not be allowed to board the plane, I am not told why except that some officials need to talk to me, I end up in an interrogation room, where i am told that someone with my name was on a "no Fly" list. After about four hours of phone calls home trying to get my identity confirmed, they are finally convinced that I am who I say I am and not the person whose name is on the list. Meanwhile I've missed my flight and will not be able to make the connections that i need to get home. I end up flying back to NYC, and waiting for about 12 hours until the next available flight to my hometown is.
So when I get home, first thing I start to do is figure out how i get a letter of identity, which states that I am actually this person and am totally unrelated to this person. I call the TSA, and ask them how I get this Paper, i find out it'll take a few weeks, I don't have a problem with that. I supply every possible form of ID, including my parents ID's and my expired passports and such. and all seems well. I then get a call saying that during the bvackground check there was a problem and it will take another few weeks. This ruins the trip I was supposed to take to look at Grad school. so i'm a little pissed. Mind you My father has "secret" level clearance with the FBI, and I have a LEUP( low explosives User Permit) from the BATF. eventually all of the problems are sorted out, and I have my paper, 6 months later, ruining many trips and possible jobs.
Beware those whose names are anything close to a terrorist whose name you hear on TV.
Heh, You've never been to "Reagan Country".
What?
'The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.' -Thomas Jefferson
Liberals call everyone Nazis yet they are the closest thing to it.
I cannot understand in the slightest why this has any relevance at all on a "news for nerds" website, except for the possible purpose of pushing a political agenda. This kind of stuff belongs on DailyKos or some other site aimed at agitating the masses, not a site where the prime focus ought to be technical.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
RTFA! The article clearly says that thieir quota is one per month.
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
Imitation is the sincerest form of...well, you know. Since you're unable to come up with your own arguments, I really appreciate your attempts to ape my logical, rational thought process. Bravo! Perhaps next time you can use your own neurons, if that isn't too much of a stretch for you.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
I am not saying that, but I would like to see some verification outside of one news source.
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
I know that it looks that way, but I did not mean to say that only eastern news sources are acceptable. I spent 15 of the best years of my life in Michigan, and the Chicago Tribune and LA Times are just as valid of a source as the papers I listed.
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
You are no longer free to move about the country....
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I honestly believe that every plane that lands safely is a good thing. Are Air Marshalls supposed to be spotting future threats, or are they supposed to ensure the safety of the passengers on the flight?
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
I stand corrected. I was only saying that I would like to see something that verifies this story. I am a viewer of NBC10 in Philadelphia and I am used to their overblown investigative reporting. I also should not have used the NYT as an example of a valid news source, as I am not a fan.
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
Darned Afghans!!!
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Wasn't aware that I was, just saying that the Republican party (notice, the particular party, not a movement or an ideology) is doing a hell of a lot better at it. I mean, for gods sakes, the concept of "liberty" is a bad thing now.
I'm sure a neoconservative would disagree with you vehemently and say it's the other way around. Perhaps that's why I'm a Libertarian.
"Oh noes! That ideology shares concepts with what Cold War era propaganda taught me was teh devil!"
That has nothing to do with it, and quite frankly you're being silly. I personally dislike the very very ideology behind socialism and communism, although I certainly understand the draw they have for "the common people." What a pity that both ideologies require humans to go against human nature, which is why they are all doomed to failure. Capitalism in Republic is the only ideology that embraces and encourages human nature, which is why it's proven to be the most successful form of government thus far.
Just how freakin' black and white is your world?
Pretty freakin' black and white. You see, I don't bother trying to find moral equivalence or compassion for those who oppose me. People fall into three categories: those that are on "my" side, those that are against me, and those that are neutral. Those who are on my side deserve and receive whatever benefits I can give them. Those who are neutral receive neither favor nor opposition. Those who are against me are my enemies, and I seek to defeat them using whatever means are appropriate.
I'm sure this seems hopelessly Neanderthal to someone so cultured and nuanced as yourself. No doubt this kind of thinking is a complete enigma to you. The sad thing is that while people like you are so busy seeing shades of grey in every situation, people like me are actually taking action and getting things done and -- whether you like it or not -- looking out for your best interests. You won't recognize that, but there it is.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
... with this sort on thing happening I won't be travelling via the US next time I go to Europe.
I think I'd prefer to go via Japan and Russia now-a-days. Seriously, US citizens, it really _is_ time for a regime change in the White House. The Republicans seem to have taken too many pages out of the Nazi rule books for my liking.
I suspect that there are those in the government (probably career military or intelligence) that really wants to see an Executive dictatorship arise in this country. The goal here is not to win the war on terror but actually to create a system where we cannot win it. The terrorists (absent nuclear weapons) aren't any more dangerous than the automobile (and actually less so), so the damage caused in a prolonged conflict is acceptable. The real target is the system of government which has sustained our great republic for a little over two hundred years.
I think that now is the time to make references to Julius Caesar...
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
All I did was try to enter the US on my existing E3 visa. Because I apparently can't enter on that visa unless I'm working for the employer during that trip, you can't enter on the E3. You need to be on the visa waiver program, not the E3. WTF? It's a visa! It's far, far harder to get than the VWP.
:( Not in the USA, not in Australia.
So I was made to fill out the visa waiver form, and by the time I got back, I found myself on the watchlist. Do the USA really want me to come live in the US and work towards their GDP? Or not?
I'll find out in the next three weeks what it exactly means to be on the watchlist. I'm flying all over the country, so if it does take more time, I will be REALLY pissed. If it means I get stopped in Australia, then I'm going to be REALLY REALLY pissed, as it's completely bogus. I had committed no crime
Andrew
ps. My day job is security. This is security theatre. The folks who run the TSA should be ashamed of themselves. They are no friends of the security industry.
Andrew van der Stock
So it's truer than ever, "Never poke fun at someone who can authorise a cavity search"
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
How do you meet a quota when you're looking out for suspicious people?
The logic goes thusly:
-We want to keep tabs on the most suspicious 1% of passengers.
-There are 100 people on this plane
-There must be 1 person we want to keep tabs on.
Now, in fact, there is actually a 36.6% (.99^100) chance that none of the 100 people are part of the 1% that need to be monitored. But explaining that is hard. Simply picking 1 person per 100 is easy.
Problem: there is a very small but nonzero risk of a future hijacking attempt on a domestic airliner, a la 9/11.
Correct solution: Improve existing cockpit doors, allow licensed pilots to fly armed. Nothing more is necessary based upon the severity of the threat.
Government response: Create entire agencies devoted to providing the illusion of improved security, while wasting billions of dollars on programs that have an infinitesimally small chance of preventing a major terrorist attack. Divert these funds from critical programs such as education, or by incurring debt. Gain political points by appearing to be solving a problem. Get re-elected, and continue the process in some other venue. Thus passes the glory of America.
By that reasoning, I suppose the idea of getting a handgun for self defense is pre-meditated murder? I mean, if I get a gun for self defense, and the need arises, I do plan on killing the perp. I think that's pretty obvious.
Nothing was said whether or not the thief had a weapon when he came through the fire escape. Maybe the original plan was to simply apprehend the thief... but I'd sure as heck be ready to take the shot if he had a weapon or came at me.
News about this kind of police state BELONGS ON EVERY FRICKING BLOG, NEWSPAPER, TV AND RADIO.
Naw, nevermind. Go back to eating your cheetos and playing counterstrike.
"Why force false-positives like this by having quotas?"
The soviets LOVED false quotas. It instituted a system where anyone could be arbitrarily punished for anything. With that power came complete and utter control over the lives of it's people.
"It's like giving soldiers a quota of people they need to kill or something stupid like that."
Stalin loved those. The police had execution quotas too. Wait till Texas gets them.
I'm glad I live in China...
If you use your gun in self defense, then you are reacting to the situation. In this situation, according to story, at least, he actively set himself in position, lay in ambush with the stated intention of killing said person. He had no idea whether this person would be the person that had either previously burgled him, or indeed whether it was a burglar at all. He "sat there with the lights out and when the "perp" (judge, jury and executioner, apparently, quite literally) came in ... this guy blew him apart". That isn't 'reactionary defense of property', that is pretty much the textbook definition of premeditated homicide.
Anyone who opposes these watch list quotas hates freedom and productivity!
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
An unticketed person is allowed past security when they are at the airport to pick up a minor that has been flying as a "protected minor" (or some such terminology). Such minors are checked in by an adult at their point of origin, followed around by designated airline personnel for their entire flight and handed over to a designated adult at the destination. The designated adults are printed a special pass (not a real ticket since it won't let them on any flight) to let them past security to the gate to meet the airline personnel, fill out some paperwork and pick up the minor. I would assume the "younger brother" mentioned by the parent qualifies as such a minor.
I agree with the parent.
AT MOST, and I'm exaggerating, terrorists are 1/100,000? With (what?) hundreds of air marshalls in the sky, you can see where this will end up. There is no way a marshall will identify a "real" "POTENTIAL" "terrorist".
--- widget evolution: enhanced, plus, super, ultra, extreme, exxxtreme, ultra-extreme,
What you are suggesting is called "Convict Lease", and is a legally fig-leafed form of slavery, and, it should go without saying, an egregious violation of human rights besides. Not only is it wrong on the face of it, it encourages the state to arrest and convict more people, to inflate the legal-slave supply.
To quote a current internet meme: Perhaps you've not thought your cunning plan all the way through.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
Scene from the White House:-
GWB: Holy schmolians! $40 billion for hunting down bin laden. Who is this bin laden guy?!
Shadowy Advisor: Head of the Al-Qaeda international terrorist network.
GWB: Never heard of him.
Shadowy Advisor: Masterminded the attacks on New York in 2001.
GWB: Still not ringin' any bells...
Shadowy Advisor: The boogey-man we're using to scare the American people into letting us away with anything we want.
GWB: Oh! That bin laden - why didn't you say?
***
They've already thought of your idea - and dismissed it. Bin Laden is never going to be found - and your taxes are never going to go down.
Genesis 1:32 And God typed
McVeigh used a truck, so you might just want to stay at home and hide under the bed. Not to mention all the vehicle-carried suicide bombs being used in liberated Iraq. Not to mention that the petroleum you're using to drive around directly funds the Saudis and other people who only pretend to like us because we pay them, and then they turn around and directly fund terrorists. I'm not blaming you, but I do love to muddy the water and get everyone depressed.
This is actually a very good comment.
Unfortunately the moderator seems to be somewhat challenged and clearly didn't double check the button he was pressing.
"Now the biggest threat to American security is president fucktard"
s/American/World/
The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
It's funny - I thought that the McCarthy era was just a rediculous caricature of uneducated fear that didn't have the privledge of historical perspective to see the overarching problems that happen when you supplant fear with objectivity. We've come so far...
I would love to see a Vegas air marshall on a plane with the bolero men from the Thomas Crown Affair...
Your argument hinges on there being an equality between (a) meeting a quota for number of people marked for hassle at an airport, and (b) gassing people to death. While there are vague abstract similarities, I think the practical difference is too big to make the argument a good one.
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
I couldn't find anything even remotely nerdy in this story...
Slashdot is turning into yet another K5...
But all you people who support laws like these, and then complain when then turn out badly, shut the hell up!
In all fairness, there are probably about four people on Slashdot who hold that viewpoint.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
If differences in electric potential, heat, pressure, and so on can be used to generate energy, why not calm/fear? I think you've stumbled onto the president's plan to stop relying on foreign oil.
I don't know the specific law or if it really exists but I have heard that police quotas for things like tickets are illegal.
I worked with a guy who was an ex-cop. I asked him about it one day. I think he confirmed that quotas were illegal. He then went on to say when he was hired his Sergeant told him,
"You make 27K a year... Just to let you know, that comes to about two tickets a day. All I'm here to say is to let you know that I'm not going to loose money on you."
It sounded like it was one of those "do the math" conversations.
Could've been worse if your dad had been in a London metro station. They fulfill their quotas in a different way.
+5 Insightful? Unbelievable. A perfect example of what is broken with the moderation system.
That was a fine piece of investigatave journalism Denver's 7 did. I'd trust THEM before the Times or the Post whose reporters have a history of falsification.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
"that is pretty much the textbook definition of premeditated homicide."
Except it occoured durring a B&E.
there is no way the guy confessed that he lay in wait.
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Again, I was really looking for verification from some other source. The way that these things usually become known is through some news agency breaking the story and others fact checking and re-running their own versions. As it turns out this was a local issue apparently limited to one city.
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
The thing that always gets me about these reactions to "terrorism" is that they seem to assume that the attackers only have one available attack vector. Why would they fly planes into buildings again if they could detonate bombs in a metro railway system? Why would they detonate bombs in the metro railway system again if they could... well, I don't know, but I'm sure they could think of something.
The reason these suicide attacks have worked so well is because no-one was expecting them. They aren't going to do the same thing again. There are plenty of ways to cause distruption and terror if you've got a bomb and someone who doesn't care for their life. Instead of focusing on what they've already done, worry about what they might do next.
It also completely distorts the labour market...
Well, you still seem to equate credibility with size. I thought size didn't matter, but not everyone agrees, apparently. I would like to think that sometimes the "small timers" work a little harder at getting the facts straight. The big boys have business matters to consider. The facts could be, let's saaay...a little inconvenient for those interests.
What?
Ahem. Hicks are from the mountains, not 'the South', which also comprises rednecks.
Rule of thumb: You live where there are hills and tiny rundown houses at the end of dirt road four miles deep in the woods, you're a hick. You live on a forty arce run down farm and grow peanuts, you're a redneck.
There are many overlaps, but they should not be confused.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
You are making the assumption that the ramifications of being put on this list is only some hassle at the airport. But these people are being put on more than just a "no-fly" list or "inspect more" list, they are being put on a "suspected terrorist" list. For now, that means more hassle at the airport. Five, ten years from now it could mean much much more.
The facts get pushed around no matter what size news organization you are dealing with. I moonlight for a small independent newspaper in Washington DC and I trust our articles as much as the larger papers, but not always more.
Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
heheh V funny... Actually I was at LEAST 30 yo by then, and alive and well in SF.
- LETHAL
- LETHAL
The FBI nicked him and his tribe/harem/cloister in the botched crawling on the compound building. I understand they fired gas grenades or something and lit the frick'n place ablaze, and in the melee/chaos several of their own and other agents were shot and killed.
Yep, this is nuts.
But, I saw in SF on a club wall after that event:
"COPE OR DIE"
THAT resurfaced in my memory when you asked if I were David Koresh...
Ahh, a trip down memory lane....
"Cope or die...."
heheh.. slash image word: "erasable"... well, hmmm, I guess most of us are in that category...
----
Oh, that reminds me of Rev Jim Jones... For a few months (before I went to the fleet) I was a student in a Navy program in 1984 in San Diego. We had some coasties, Marines and the rest of us were swabbies. One Marine (nutty and crazy, they are) came up with or passed down to us a Jodie call we used during PT (physical training), and we sang it up and down the jogging trails, the streets, the grinder (parade/marching field)...
It is to the tune of "Downtown" (from the pre-60's I think)
"WHEN your're DOWN and OUT
AND you're READY to SHOUT
WON'T you COME and SING with JIM-JONES!
WHEN you're GOOD and BROKE
ANND your reLIGION's a JOKE
WON'T you COME AND SING WITH JIM-JONES!
WATCH-the-REV'REND-AS-HE-STIRS-A-POSHUN-THAT'S-SO
LISten-to-the-ANGry-CRIES-of-ALL-the-DYing-PEOple
EV'RY-ONE-DIES!
NO-ONE SURVIVES!
CUZ-WE'RE at JOOONES-TOWN!
PEE-POHL-R-dropping-LIKE-FLIES!
CONgressman Rye was on a MISSION to SPY
But he WOULDN'T DRINK with JIM-Jones!
For SUCH a PUBLIC DISGRACE
They HADDA BLOW-OFF HIS FACE!
Cause he WOULDN'T DRINK with JIM-Jones!
WATCH-the-REV'REND-AS-HE-STIRS-A-POSHUN-THAT'S-SO
LISten-to-the-ANGry-CRIES-of-ALL-the-DYing-PEOple
EV'RY-ONE-DIES!
NO-ONE SURVIVES!
CUZ-WE'RE at JOOONES-TOWN!
PEE-POHL-R-dropping-LIKE-FLIES!
JONEZ-town... JONES-town... Jonestown..."
There was a 3rd verse/stanza, but it's been so many years that I cannot remember.
Interesting thing is is that we (some 40 of us in our platoon) did this near the SSC/NTC commander headquarters and on the way to MCRD. Several staff and other base officers paused, but didn't look aghast, too shaken, surprised, or even stunned. Just mildly curious. Probably they noticed the Marines by their physice and bellowing voice with us swabbies in tow, keeping pace.
This is ONLY funny in the grand scheme of human brutality and bizarre conduct, well, if one can consider life a big-ass joke.
(I didn't author the jody, and I never could find it on the Net over the years. But in the style as I have written it I reserve all rights to use it in any of my other writings...) Otherwise, I have no ability to nor any interst in preventing its further dissemination.)
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Ooopps... I mentioned "FBI", but it might have been the Texas BATF...
BTW... per some US postal employees of the time... What does "WACO" mean?
WE AIN'T COMIN' OUT!
---
What's the difference between a recesion and a depression?
A REcession is when your FRIENDS are out of work.
A DEpression is when YOU are out of work..
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
When your "logical, rational thought process" is a series of unsources vague attacks, imitation becomes the sincerest form of sarcasm.
Last post!
What terminal allows *any* unticketed passengers past security?
Trick question along the lines of "where do you bury the survivors?". Passengers of course, all have tickets. However, people picking up/dropping off minors just have a pass issued at the ticket counter. People in security, maintenance, and employed in the restaurants and retail establishments all have no ticket.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
What happens when you're wrong, and you've already "defeated" those who you now realize are right?
Oh, I'm sorry - I'm sure you'll never make a mistake.
More than anything else, it's the rank certainty of neocons that frightens me so much.
Last post!
What this really means is that there will be more little old Anglo ladies pulled over for body cavity searches during security screening. It stands to reason that statistically the largest "group" of special customers before should see the largest increase under the quota system.
... why I am boycotting the US as a flying destination (I don't go ther even as an stop over destination).
It is a real shame, I have seen only bits of it, not the most necessary (NY, LA, Grand Canyon), but frankly I don't want to be treated like a criminal just for being me.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I will tell that to the children of a policeman I knew that died trying to stop a criminal gang in Guadalajara, Mexico.
And also to all the victims of crime commited by drug addicts trying to finance their adiction.
In other words, victimless crime my ass.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
They're supposed to be doing both, I would imagine That's probably the whole point behind the quota. But if they identify false threats because they've been asked to meet a quota, then they're overloading the counter-terrorism effort with bad information, and that's just going to slow us down and decrease effectiveness overall by forcing us to analyze non-threats.
The response to the transit bombings was pretty inspiring. The English have some sort of strange ability to rise above things that you just don't see in many other cultures. I guess any people that can survive half a decade of Nazi terror bombing will be rather inured to any kind of atrocity you can dream up. But yeah, the Brits have the right idea -- the best response to terror attacks is to get out there and flaunt your freedom, keep laughing, and marginalize the aims of the terrorists by completely ignoring them (at least until the opportunity to go in and ruin their shit comes along).
More Americans are killed by slippery bathtubs in any given year than have been killed by all terrorist attacks ever committed against America in all of history. Americans suffer from hundreds of times as many pirate attacks than they do terrorist attacks. Pirates, for gods sake. Keep these kinds of things in mind, and nothing Al Qaeda can ever do will be worth more than a footnote in the actuary tables regarding structural damage to office towers. Terror attacks only matter to cowards. Keep your cool, fuck the fear, live free or die.
.... is typical of an authoritarian dictatorial state.
I know you guys in the US voted for Bush, not only once but twice, but if you want democracy and the rule of law you should know by now that men are born free and you should not force them to work against their will.
You can seel the assets of the thief, or enact a systme by which money is deducted at source whenever he decides to work, but what you are suggesting only happens in states like Stalinist Russia.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Public humilliation and executions.
That is what you call justice.
For bunnies sakes, drop the computer and find a book about history, and perhaps one about the convention of human rights.
Very clever people (much clever than you) have come with explanations about why what you are proposing is complete nonsense.
And as for your sentence about many countries still practicing public hangings, you just show your imperivious, stereorypical US ignorance about the rest of the world.
The immense majority of modern countries have abolished public executions decades ago. And for you r diepleasure most modern democracies (EUrope, Latinamerica) have abolished the death penalty outright.
You guys are one of the biggest executioners, you are in the fine company of those shinny examples of judicial impecabilitiy like the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the People's Republic of China or the Dear Leader's North Korea.
You guys should have a reality check in regards o your position of the death penalty as a justified punishment. Most of enlighted humanity does not agree with you.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Sure they'll blame someone. But I'm curious how you expect them to find out who these marshals are.
George Bush's brain doesn't work, eh? Let's examine this. Who is the US population more likely to vote for? The spoilt Yale graduate son of a millionaire or the heart-in-the-right-place, "one of us." Oh, I'm not saying that he's a genius, but I think his image is carefully chosen and stage-managed. You and I might consider it a positive trait if someone is smarter than us, but "market research" suggests the US public vote for the guy that reminds them of themselves. Be afraid.
Supporting evidence for all this? Well it really doesn't matter if Bush is an idiot as he is surrounded by people who are anything but. We have to consider his actions and policies to be largely the result of influence by his advisors and corporate backers. So we should examine his actions carefully to see if they really are stupid or if we've missed the point. And it looks like it is the latter. Yes, the US is in greater danger than before he took power, and yes, I'd say economically it is also in greater danger. But why do you think his actions are governed by your interests? Defense spending is up, Haliburton has been handed a country for Christmas, and a lot more less publicised profiteering has gone on. If the american public saw him as a calculating and shrewd sort of guy, these activities would recieve more consideration. As a regular guy who cares about them, they are much less likely to think of Bush diverting their taxes into private wars.
Laughing at George Bush might feel good. But he's getting exactly what he wants, isn't he?
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Would you prefer "crypto-fascist?"
Why bother? Why not just burn them and use the heat to generate electricity?
Stick Men