Apple Newton vs Samsung Q1 UMPC

An anonymous reader writes "CNET has run a comparison between the 1997 Apple Newton and a modern Windows ultra mobile PC, the Samsung Q1. Remarkably, the Newton comes off as the winner. From the article: 'An operating system designed for a desktop computer will rarely shoehorn well into a portable device, yet that is exactly what Samsung has tried to do with the Q1. Very little consideration has been given to the differing priorities of desktop and small-form computer users. Windows is a one-size-fits-all solution, whereas the Newton OS is very specifically built for the efficient use of a small screen and stylus.'"

Comments

Not compared

[andrewman327]

I have always liked the Palm OS the most. I currently carry my LifeDrive with me everywhere I go and I am very happy with it. People need to learn that they cannot carry their desktop with them in the palm (had to) of their hand. Instead of scaling down desktop OS and apps, they need to start small.

Re:Not compared

[Lumpy]

I loved my lifedrive until I had to start travelling and got an iQue. now my lifedrive sit's in a drawer unused.

I have a pda, a 4Gig SD card in it for storage and a full GPS with the best dataset I can get. Having the gps with not only road data but store, hotel and resturant data is far more valuableto a travelling schlep.

Re:Not compared

[Valthan]

What version/How much do you want for said LifeDrive?

Re:Not compared

[andrewman327]

"I loved my lifedrive until I had to start travelling and got an iQue. now my lifedrive sit's in a drawer unused."

You know, I could always use a spare! About your sig: after being an intern for a semester, I mostly agree with you.

Re:Not compared

[andrewman327]

How can the first post be redundant?

Anyway, I do not view the Newtown as the winner, the way that TFA is written it is more that the Q1 is the loser.

Re:Not compared

[dugjohnson]

I want a LifeDrive that is also a phone. The screen is too small on the Treo (I'm an old fart) and I don't need that little keyboard.

Re:Not compared

[andrewman327]

I actually prefer having two seperate devices. The LifeDrive can connect to your phone via Bluetooth to dial your contacts and such, and I do not really need more integration than that.

Agreed about the keyboard. I use an optional folding keyboard for typing. Works much better than thumb-typing.

I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[Clockwurk]

mobile OS. Having 1 set of menus and a dock for applications would work really well on a vertical screen.

Re:I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[Nimey]

ITYM the OSX interface. The OS itself is too heavy for a mobile device that won't cost $$$. It needs 512MB of RAM and a couple GB of hard drive space for the whole thing if you don't want it to crawl (granted, you wouldn't need /all/ that for a PDA).

Re:I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, I GU. WTF does ITYM mean?

Re:I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[Anonymous Coward]

I Think You Mean WTF does ITYM mean.

Re:I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[DeafByBeheading]

ITYM -> "I think you mean".

Re:I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[rickb928]

Sadly, I always seem to want a horizontal screen. SSH on narrow screens is no joy.

-rick

Re:I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[hitmark]

and apple laptops have for a long time reminded me of a gigantic PDA...

Re:I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[zullnero]

You can still find a Tapwave Zodiac 2 on eBay, well, sometimes anyway. They had wider screens, and I've used ssh/irc/etc. on mine quite effectively for some time now. It's a hobbyist's toy at this point, but it's a fun hobby if you know where to look for all the old 3d APIs built for it.

Re:I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[drinkypoo]

There's a virtual desktop manager for WM2003 and WM5 that lets you have a 320x240 screen (sideways, either direction) or flip the screen upside down, which is nice for reading when the power cable is plugged in.

Re: I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[gidds]

Nah. Why show a menu bar all the time? Do what the Psion series do and have a silkscreen button next to the screen to pop up the main menubar. All the benefit, for no screen space at all!

Similarly, there's no real need for a taskbar/dock when you're mainly using standard applications; silkscreen buttons are great for that too.

If you've not got much screen space, then you have to make every pixel count. Some things need a certain amount to be useful; e.g. scrollbars. But prune what's not needed, and it doesn't feel quite so cramped after all.

Re:I've often thought that OSX would make a good

[Goldfinger7400]

That's essentially what Newton OS is. It's got a dock, and it even does the same "Poof!" animation when you drag stuff out of it. And IIRC there's a menubar at the top that hides when not in use, with all the mac standard stuff. But the newton is both vertical AND horizontal! You can rotate it however you want to use it at the time.

Damn, I'm really misisng my newton, I can't believe I sold it. Actually, what I can't believe that in ten years there hasn't been a PDA as good as the Newton.

Wow, it's a review troll

[Anonymous Coward]

This smells fishy to me. If you were to run a Ferrari against a Model T, you'd expect the Ferrari to kick butt -- in fact, you'd receive some raised eyebrows for even testing the two together. I suspect there was some hanky-panky here from the start.

Ad man: We need some hits from the Mac community.
Edit: Easier done than said, my good man.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[Lumpy]

This smells fishy to me. If you were to run a Ferrari against a Model T, you'd expect the Ferrari to kick butt -- in fact, you'd receive some raised eyebrows for even testing the two together. I suspect there was some hanky-panky here from the start.

not at all. In this comparison the Model T has a traditional steering wheel and gas/brake pedals. The Ferrari has a laptop trackpad for steering and a strange USB device for breaking and gas that seems to get disconnected at random times and at regular times the steering will either slam the wheels to the right hard for no reason or fail to accept input.

THAT is the difference between a Newton and XP Tablet. The newton was designed from the beginning to be a non keyboard/mouse device. XP is designed ot have a keyboard and mouse and then MSFT slapped some crud into it to work with the other hardware.

It does not work (I have 2 Xp tablets, I hate the XP tablet tools, they simply suck.) and is unreliable at best.

That seems to be a very fair comparison to me with no fishyness.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually I wouldn't be at all surpised to find the Model T doing well in every condition but a perfectly smooth road. Run the test on a farm, rural road, or many allegedly "paved" highways in Pennsylvania, and the Model T will do favorably if not better.

As others have pointed out taking a desktop OS off the desktop doesn't equate to success. Similar to taking the Ferrari off a smooth road.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[hey!]

This smells fishy to me. If you were to run a Ferrari against a Model T, you'd expect the Ferrari to kick butt

Unless the test included driving over a dirt road with ruts eight inches deep. The ability to go 200MPH is meaningless if your tires don't reach the ground.

Mobile coputing platform providers end up competing on features, because that's the only way to lock users into an upgrade cycle. And everybody likes a shiny new feature. But the truth is mobile computing users don't really need more features. What they need is basic capabilities, any time, any place.

The Newton got a lot of things right, and a few critical things wrong. One of the things it got right was battery. That satisifies the any time requirement. One of the things it got wrong was form factor. That fails the anywhere requirement.

It seems to me that creating a more powerful computer in the same form factor but with short battery life is a mistake.

In any case, the Newton is hardly a model T. It's more like a Stanley Steamer: an extraordinary and worthy piece of engineering that failed becuase it didn't meet a key user criterion. For the Stanley, it was the ability to hop in and go without having to literally build up a head of steam. For the Newton, it was the ability to carry it with you without constantly being aware you were lugging a computer around.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[blamanj]

For the Newton, it was the ability to carry it with you without constantly being aware you were lugging a computer around.

That and bad press as a result of a too-early release and a rocky start.

However, that makes the article's comparison that much more poignant, because it seems like the technology to build the Newton today would allow it to be about 1/2 the original weight and maybe 75% it's original size. Give it a color screen and WiFi and you'd have a killer machine.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[Yvan256]

However, that makes the article's comparison that much more poignant, because it seems like the technology to build the Newton today would allow it to be about 1/2 the original weight and maybe 75% it's original size. Give it a color screen and WiFi and you'd have a killer machine.

I'm waiting for the next iPod revision.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[soft_guy]

If you were to run a Ferrari against a Model T

No, it's more like comparing a 1932 Reo Royale to a Ford Pinto.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[ratboy666]

I really liked my Newton.

But, I use a Palm m505 now. Why? Mostly size. Color screen is almost not relevant (well, there is one application that I find it useful in - EasyCalc graphing calculator, where I can plot multiple functions, each with its own color.). I could lose the colour.

Speed? The m505 is a 32Mhz 68000, its slower than the Newton. Still gets the job done, and the battery life is good.

Handwriting? I initially thought that the lack of cursive, and graffiti was going to be a killer. Surprisingly, it only took a couple of days to become proficient with grafiti.

Organizer? Here, the Newton wins. Hands down. All information is magically correlated in a Newton. The palm is to... um... "application oriented". It does have cross application search, but it isn't as good. You also have to be IN the application to do something. No random scrawling of instructions, with the knowledge that the PDA will take care of it.

Connectivity? the palm wins (at least with stock Linux distributions).

In conclusion, I use the m505 for its size and linux connectivity (out-of-the-box). If a Newton device were released that brought the size down to m505, and had an "open connectivity" kit for standard linux apps (openoffice), I would switch. Oh -- one more thing. The "IR" feature would have to be standard and be able to beam contacts, notes, etc. to and from my phone (which my m505 does).

The Samsung Q1? Not even in the same league. It won't fit into my "manbag". Its battery life is WAY too short. And its a remarkably poor interface for doing quick PDA things. I don't need fancy, I need super-quick reliable interactions. Even the m505 fails here - it takes SECONDS to jump from calculator to address book. Blech. The Newton was superior. If I need to tell someone "please slow down, my PDA isn't keeping up", or have the urge to capture on scrap paper first, the PDA has failed. The only delay with the Newton was the handwriting recognition -- and the model I had didn't allow deferred recognition.

My perfect PDA:

- palm m505 form factor
- 8+ hours battery life
- newton style software
- linux connectivity
- very fast recognizer, perhaps deferred recognition
- sd slot expansion (two slots)
- wifi and/or bluetooth and IR (compatible)
- vibration

</rant>

Ratboy.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[drinkypoo]

However, that makes the article's comparison that much more poignant, because it seems like the technology to build the Newton today would allow it to be about 1/2 the original weight and maybe 75% it's original size.

Maybe you haven't noticed but we do have PDAs today. My sub-$200 refurb iPAQ has a 400MHz 32-bit fully-RISC CPU, 64MB RAM, and both CF and SDIO slots, not to mention bluetooth and CD-quality audio. And of course, IR, but the newton had that, right?

And, I might add, it will faithfully inscribe "'Twas brillig..."

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[MrNiceguy_KS]

Not quite - remember the 2.5 hour battery life.

Think a Ford Pinto, but with Ferrari gas milage.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[Ohreally_factor]

I happen to love car analogies. There is no car analogy that can't be tortured to explain or describe anything in the universe.

However, in this case, a better car analogy would be to compare a '57 Thunderbird (Newton) with a '87 Yugo (Q1). Er, a really expensive Yugo. With a really small gas tank. =)

The latest is not always the greatest. People will remember the Newton long long after the Q1 is forgotten. Love it or hate it, it's a computing classic.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[Sam Haine '95]

Wouldn't a Ford Pinto be a Dell laptop?

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[teneighty]

the Model T has a traditional steering wheel and gas/brake pedals.

Ironically, your comparision is the wrong way around. The Model T doesn't have a gas pedal -- the throttle is on the steering wheel. The Model T's pedals are used quite differently to modern cars.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[Molochi]

They existed. I new a guy in high school with a small block V8 in his pinto. It got much worse milage than a ferrari :)

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[drinkypoo]

It's more like comparing an airplane to a car. The airplane is harder to control and has more cryptic controls but does dramatically more. In fact, it can even drive on a road, but it's very bad at is, and extremely inefficient. The car does practically nothing compared to the airplane (for example, if the airplane is upside down, you might just be having fun - if the car is upside down, something is wrong) but it's much easier to apprehend since it only works in two and a half dimensions. (the Z axis is something that happens to you, not something you control, low-riders notwithstanding.)

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[drinkypoo]

Although it's an eensy bit larger than a m505, you can get a used iPAQ (or a newer one) and put Familiar Linux on it. My iPAQ H2210 gets about that much battery life, you can put linux on it and get linux connectivity that way, it has SDIO and CF Type II, it's got bluetooth and I have a CF wifi card. You can get one that has all that, plus internal wifi, and vibration too, but you'll need a CF to SD adapter if you want to use two SD cards. Sure, Linux on a handheld isn't much different (in practice) than linux on a desktop, except the scale, but I did install it on mine just for a laugh (it wipes out the contents of your handheld, so you have to back up, run it, and then restore from the backup if you want to run both on the same device) and it was slow to boot, but actually quite peppy once it booted. 64MB RAM is pretty sad for a desktop, but not bad for a palmtop running Linux. In fact, right now the linux connectivity is working, and the windows connectivity isn't. The handheld wouldn't even peer with my windows laptop, but both machines can see my cellphone, so I'm not sure what's up with that. My handheld isn't officially supported until next month or so anyway.

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[Ohreally_factor]

OK, I'll buy that analogy for a dollar. It works, and most importantly, includes automobiles.

Your point about the Z-axis is interesting, even considering low riders, stunt drivers, etc., i.e., people who tweak or push their z-axis limited equipment beyond its intended purpose (which is still different than using an airplane to drive down the street to the supermarket, or whatever).

Re:Wow, it's a review troll

[Bug-Y2K]

I think it is more like a 1962 Mercedes-Benz 300sl - the final iteration of the iconic "gullwing"... where they had refined it to include disc brakes, aluminum engine block, the full-blown racing cams and head, a well engineered convertible top, etc on top of the original innovations of fuel injection, lightweight superleggera body construction, drop-dead gorgeous looks, etc.

-vs.-

A Ford Explorer. Basically a hybrid of a truck and a station wagon, loaded with compromises, ungainly and uneconomical, and of course it blows tires and rolls over too easily.

The Newton 2100 really represented the ultimate in Newton development, and what came after (like the 2X0sl line) was thoughtful and useful, but just did not have the same flair, style and world-beating power of the original.

Any Windows-based device will be a study in compromise and instability. The less said about Ford Explorers the better.

--chuck

Round 2

[Anonymous Coward]

Now that we have the winner, it's time for Round 2: Apple Newtons vs. Fig Newtons!

Re:Round 2

[Monster_Juice]

One makes you productive in the office the other on makes you productive in the bathroom.

Re:Round 2

[Anonymous Coward]

The winner is clear, Apple Newton by better than 3:1 (Google Fight)

Re:Round 2

[drinkypoo]

What, is this a riddle? My answers are coffee, and coffee. What do I win?

"Winner?"

[Lord Grey]

The summary makes it seem like the Newton technologically outperforms the Q1. Not so. "Winner," in this context, means "a better value." From TFA:

... the Newton has 12 times the battery life of the Q1, so ended up winning the fight with sheer stamina. Add to this the Q1's inflated price and it's a no-brainer ...

If you actually read the article, the Q1 includes much better technology and has a lot of features and capabilities that appeal to the majority of computer users -- Windows users. Since the Q1 would be someone's second (or third, or fourth) computer, it has much more appeal. The MessagePad's handwriting recognition and overall interface may be cleaner, but that's not as impressive to most people as running Microsoft Office on a tiny screen.

Re:"Winner?"

[SpecTheIntro]

Furthermore, get a load of this gem: "It would be easy to dismiss the Newton's greyscale screen as inferior to the Q1's full-colour display, but Apple's choice of a greyscale LCD is one of the reasons the Newton enjoys over 30 hours of continuous battery life, compared to the Q1's 2.5 hours." WTF? This is biased reviewing at its best. An LCD screen should be reviewed based on the qualities of the goddamned screen. Which display is sharper? Which is brighter? Which is clearer? Which screen allows more versatility? Battery life is a separate goddamned category. It should not be a factor in deciding which screen is better than another unless all other things are equal--which they clearly are not. The entire review is basically the reviewers saying: "Yeah, the Q1 is really nice, but we want a PDA, and that's not what the Q is, so Apple wins."

Re:"Winner?"

[DDLKermit007]

Actually 30 hours Vs 2.5 Hours means allot to those that are really on the go type people (hell I can get 6 hours with my REAL laptop!). Hell imo Treo 650/700p wins out against this monstrocity. Theres a fairly big problem many manufacturers are running into which is options Vs battery life and they are sacking battery life to the point that a regular laptop gets more time away from a wallsocket than these things. When it comes down to it though the Q1 really is not aimed at Joe Windows user. Joe Windows user can barely put up with $400 for some POS Emachines from Best Buy let alone the price of a Q1. This is aimed at the Professional/Prosumer with allot of cash to burn which are more likely to want something NON-Windows based.

They did make some very good points though in thier comparison though. For some reason I get this sneaking suspicion that your a Q1 user thats suffering from buyers defense of thier expensive gadget. That or your a PR troll. I could be wrong though.

Re:"Winner?"

[mgblst]

The Q1 is just a differently windows shaped notebook computer. If what you want to do is write a document, check your email, check the web, then the Newton is perfect for that - and it lasts 30 hours. This was made 10 years ago, the Q1 only lasts 2.5 - because is is a full on pc. Sure, you can watch videos, play music and so much more, but if you want to do something simple, you still only get that pathetic battery life!

Re:"Winner?"

[Midnight Thunder]

Newton enjoys over 30 hours of continuous battery life, compared to the Q1's 2.5 hours.

Actually this is a really important. You don't want to be finding yourself a power socket to charge your PDA every two and half hours. Gray scale screens are usually very high quality in commparison to colour screens, with the omission of colour.

The entire revue is probably biased, but the general gist is that if you think of how your device will be used you will be better off. Trying to fudge a solution may provide a working solution, but not necessarily one which is worth using. The fact that the Newton is still being using by people today is a testiment to how well it was thought out - what was against it were: size, price and the fact it was too early to market for most.

Re:"Winner?"

[hpavc]

Well the apple screen is clearer, sharper, more vibrant when the other model has no battery and isn't able to compete. The devices are all about utility and ease of use. You cannot use something that cannot be counted on to work. The time of 2.5 hours seems insanely short to me, I couldnt use that during a ten hour work day as a tool. If its really really cool looking, that isn't going to help.

Re:"Winner?"

[mgblst]

I like this bit It's not just guess-work either -- the Q1 uses a neural net, which means that it uses several information sources to determine what you want to write, rather than trying to translate ink strokes into letters and words.
 
That is not the definition of a neural net (don't let me stop you from making up your own definitions for things, CNET), and I would be very surprised if it does use an actual neural net. Very cpu intensive.

Re:"Winner?"

[mgblst]

And this... "Though it's easy to argue the Newton has security through obscurity, you do have to question whether it was wise to bring all the overheads of Windows to a small portable device like the Q1."
 
It is not security through obscurity that is keeping the Newton safe. It is the fact that it has a well protected OS, is not as common as Windows, and has limited connectivity.

Re:"Winner?"

[duffel]

not as impressive to most people as running Microsoft Office on a tiny screen.

It's a tiny screen and fully half the screen is toolbars.

This article is really about the modern portables industry going off-mission, and sacrificing core features of portables in favour of gimmicks. The Samsung machine tries to be a swiss army knife of portable computing, and it does everything it claims, but it lacks the most important aspects of such a mini toolkit: portability. 2.5 hours isn't portable, that won't even last you a flight of any distance, and it actually places an upper limit on the length of movies you can watch with it's much praised video playing capabilities (chances are it's more like 2 hours with something as processor intensive anyway). The prime advantage of this is that you can amend, for example, powerpoint presentations last minute. But then you could already do it much better and faster on an ordinary laptop.

Remember those swiss army knifes? On the one hand you get the ones with 6 or 7 fold out tools... A mini toolkit in your pocket, very useful. Then you get the one with 150 tools that's so bulky you wouldn't want to carry it around in your pocket, and so it sits unused in your toolbox where you have better tools anyway.

Re:"Winner?"

[SpecTheIntro]

No, I don't own a Q1. I just think that the reviewing method was bad at best, and outright biased at worst. I've no doubt that the Newton is a fantastic machine. But to argue that it has a better LCD screen based solely on battery life is outright stupid. Battery life is a separate category altogether, one that the Q1 loses terribly, no questions asked. But what is the review trying to accomplish here? It doesn't seem clear to me. What are the standards by which a ultra-mobile PC should be judged? If you're going to say: "the display is an important factor," then judge the display independently of other things, unless the two are functionally equivalent. It seems very clear to me that the Q1 has a much nicer display, hands-down. Its pathetic battery life is a different issue altogether.

Frankly, Microsoft has yet to make an impressive mobile machine. Like many here have noted, the Windows OS isn't suited for stylus navigation--it was designed with a mouse and keyboard in mind. Therefore, any portable machine based on a Windows OS is going to be inherently flawed. I'm not a big fan of styluses myself, and I hope in the future someone can figure out a way of making a truly intuitive OS that doesn't rely on one.

Re:"Winner?"

[SCPRedMage]

It is the fact that it has a well protected OS, is not as common as Windows, and has limited connectivity.

Psst... that second one IS "security through obscurity"...

Re:"Winner?"

[MikeBabcock]

There's a massive difference between saying "wow, it has Word" and actually writing notes in a meeting on the thing.

I've yet to see someone do so successfully with a Windows device and not hate it within a month whereas I've done so for years with my Newton MessagePads with no problems. Most important are shape recognition (for doodles), delayed handwriting recognition with auto-scroll (screen moves up to give you more writing room automatically) and easy note creation (just draw a line across the screen).

The filing system is eminently better too; just click the file button, pick a folder name and click ok. Everything is already saved as a file permanently, you have just to file things in their own folders after creation.

Re:"Winner?"

[mrchaotica]

I think the point the parent post was trying to make is that they're counting battery life against the Q1 twice: once when discussing the battery, and then again when discussing the screen.

Re:"Winner?"

[rthille]

Well, you can think about it this way. "I prefer a screen that stays greyscale for 30 hours, vs a screen which is color for the first 2.5 hours, then just black after that."

Re:"Winner?"

[Yvan256]

It is the fact that it has a well protected OS, is not as common as Windows, and has limited connectivity.

Psst... that second one IS "security through obscurity"...

Nope, that second one is "security through low marketshare". Don't confuse the two.

In fact, Windows is the one that's doing "security through obscurity"...

Re:"Winner?"

[rm69990]

The reviewer counts the battery against the Q1 when reviewing the battery, and then AGAIN on the screen. In other words, he's counted a Samsung flaw twice. He should compare the screens directly. Which one is easier to read, crisper image, etc etc.

Re:"Winner?"

[jimicus]

If you actually read the article, the Q1 includes much better technology and has a lot of features and capabilities that appeal to the majority of computer users -- Windows users.

I'm going to stick my neck out and speculate wildly here, but IME most palmtop devices are used as glorified filofaxes. If this is going to be the case, then 90% of the "extra features" of the Q1 are "Look Gran, see what I can do!" features of precious little real benefit.

Re:"Winner?"

[maximthemagnificent]

Your laptop comment dovetails nicely with your swiss army analogy. Above a certain size, a leatherman kicks a swiss army knife's ass.

Maxim

Re:"Winner?"

[Moofie]

Just because a swiss army knife is a poor multitool doesn't mean that all multitools are poor. I've used several Gerber and Leatherman multitools that are superb.

Do they replace my toolbox? Certainly not. But they can be on my person at all times, which my toolbox cannot.

Well, except when I'm on an airplane. That really sucks, by the way.

Re:"Winner?"

[Moofie]

If you say "glorified filofaxes whose data is transparently backed up to another device with the push of a button", you're right.

The key feature of a PDA is not that it does the same thing as a paper organizer. The key feature is that, if you lose it/break it/set it on fire, your data is safe.

Franklin and Filofax can't do that.

Re:"Winner?"

[jimicus]

The "transparent backup" is the glorified bit.

Re:"Winner?"

[Moofie]

Uh huh, but you damn it with faint praise if you don't see that that is the KEY FEATURE of PDAs.

Portable electronic data storage is great and all, but backing up a contacts database is really, really, REALLY valuable.

Re:"Winner?"

[timeOday]

I tend to agree, but then I look at Palm, which really did soldier on trying to push usability over features for some time. Where did it get them? Yeah, I'm bitter. Where can I get something with the battery life and small size of the Palm V I had 5 years ago? (Come to think of it, I would like it to have wireless, and a web browser, and... uh oh).

Re:"Winner?"

[SillyNickName4me]

If the consequence of using a technically much better screen is reducing the battery life to an almost unusable level, then it is pretty relevant. Furthermore, in every round 2 biassed opinions are presented, so it is no surpise to find somewhat biassed language and reasoning there.

I found the comparison a funny read, and not one of which to take the 'facts' too serious. Rather, it seems to be trying to make a point about those xp based tablet pcs, their battery life makes them unusable as a portable organizer. Having used pdas and tablet pcs myself, I happen to agree with their point when it comes to a device for on the way. That said, tablet pcs have their place as soon as battery life is not a big issue while portability is a big issue, ie, as a much smaller and lighter replacement for a laptop when doing presentations.

Re:"Winner?"

[SillyNickName4me]

The funny thing is that my now obsolete Palm Zire 71 does all those things fine with a better battery life then the Q1. Its smaller and lighter as well.

Re:"Winner?"

[SillyNickName4me]

I think you are right about syncing and having a backup of your data being the key feature of pdas.

I took it one step further and have a portable backup solution for my pda (sdcard with backup/restore app and enough space for a backup) so even when I am abroad, I can just get a replacement device and have my data back.

This in turn got me to use my pda as a backup device for my mobile phone.

Re:"Winner?"

[Moofie]

I'm almost down to One Address Book. If I can figure out how to publish my contacts to SquirrelMail, I will have Won.

My Treo talks to OS X Address Book, which populates Mail and Adium (for IM). AND, if I flush the Treo down a toilet (not impossible), I can get another one (got the super-warranty, so that's easy), plug it in, push a button, Bob's your uncle.

Re:"Winner?"

[podperson]

An LCD screen should be reviewed based on the qualities of the goddamned screen.

True, but the way the article was written each side tries to defend its position round by round. While the pro-Newton side made that argument in the screen round, Newton was judged to have lost that round.

Re:"Winner?"

[dan828]

Which goes to show that they are compairing apples and organges here-- the Q1 is NOT a PDA, it's a small mobile PC. The purpose of each is entirely different. This comparison makes as much sense as comparing a Digital SLR and a cell phone with a camera built in, and then giving the cell phone the win because it can store more pictures on a 1 gig card and because you can send the pictures to your friends with the phone.

Re:"Winner?"

[drinkypoo]

Just because a swiss army knife is a poor multitool doesn't mean that all multitools are poor. I've used several Gerber and Leatherman multitools that are

Your point is well taken - if the smaller tool doesn't do the job, get a bigger tool. This is why I have a cellphone, a PDA, and a laptop. The cellphone can do contacts acceptably, does appointments pathetically, and takes notes horribly but it can do those things and I can take it anywhere. I can take the PDA almost anywhere, and it does all of these things better, and then some. I can't take the laptop most places (well, I can, but I don't want to lug it) but it does everything much better. The right tool for the job and all that.

Re:"Winner?"

[glebd]

Newton is a truly remarkable device (notice I use "is" instead of "was"). However, I don't think Newton OS is well-protected or particularly secure. All data is in the open, applications can access anything and can even easily patch the OS itself (which from the usability point of view is an advantage). Also Newton runs certain programs on memory cards you insert, not counting automatic activation/installation of all packages on the card. Communication cards can have their own drivers embedded so that when inserted, their drivers are automatically installed. I guess protection from malware wasn't a priority for Newton designers, who accomplished their task of producing a true Personal Digital Assistant brilliantly. There is no malware for Newton, but a single well-thought piece of malware could be very destructive.

Re:"Winner?"

[jimicus]

If I can figure out how to publish my contacts to SquirrelMail, I will have Won.

I cracked that one ages ago. The easiest solution I could find was "Don't use Squirrel Mail" - there are plenty of far more sophisticated webmail clients out there.

Re:"Winner?"

[Moofie]

Day to day, I carry a Treo 650 and a Leatherman Charge. Both are superb multi-function tools. Neither make a good hammer.

So, yeah. Right tool for the job. When you're talking about things that are going to be on your person, good design and light weight are more important than, say, being a 15 lb maul.

Of course, that means you can't do tasks that require a 15 lb maul. Fortunately for me, I need a screwdriver and a pair of pliers and a mobile phone way more frequently than I need to drive railroad spikes.

Re:"Winner?"

[Moofie]

I'm sure there are. However, since I elect not to administer it myself, I am at the mercy of my friend who graciously administers it for me.

I like the cost-benefit analysis.

Re:"Winner?"

[Reaperducer]

Bob's your uncle.

Sounds like your sync app is corrupting your data.

Re:"Winner?"

[RevAaron]

I have to agree. I was a longitme Newton user, and hopefully I'll be using it again, emulated on a Linux PDA. Paul Guyot and lots of other folks are doing awesome work to extend the life of the Newton and bring the Newton OS onto newer hardware- with plans to introduce color even.

This is all possible because of the extremely hackable and open nature of the Newton OS. The NOS has a lot of undocumented internal APIs that are found out by poking around- and poking around is pretty easy (and fun!) with a tool like ViewFrame.

I remember wanting some other functions in the spreadsheet app I used. Not functions written in spreadsheet math/language (like =FUNC CUBE (X): X*X*X or whatever the syntax is), but new functions actually written in NewtonScript. Using ViewFrame, I poked around using the Object Browser - browsing the running objects of the live spreadsheet app, not something frozen, or in the binary- until I found an array that contained all the spreadsheet functions, as well as the corresponding NewtonScript code. I think I added some simple database access functions, in NewtonScript, and it was pretty damn easy. I was able to test them by going into VF and and adding functions, editing the code, etc- and when I was done, took that code and compiled it into a patch package.

It is pretty much impossible to get that kind of extensibility without the app being open source or having a well defiend plug-in API. The only other systems I've encountered that had that kind of power were system/OS/languages like Smalltalk and Lisp, and some of the things in between (Self, Dylan, and others). I don't have to have to worry about the developer having thought ahead to give me what I need. That accounts for a lot of the things added to the NOS in recent years- ATA drivers, bluetooth, wifi, etc.

I hope the Newton comes back! Or at least the Einstein team gets a decent NOS running on a Zaurus (or something like it) on top of Linux or instead of it. But the NOS is just about the least secure OS in the traditional sense...

Re:"Winner?"

[magetoo]

Furthermore, get a load of this gem: "It would be easy to dismiss the Newton's greyscale screen as inferior to the Q1's full-colour display, but Apple's choice of a greyscale LCD is one of the reasons the Newton enjoys over 30 hours of continuous battery life, compared to the Q1's 2.5 hours." WTF? This is biased reviewing at its best.

In case you missed it, the "review" is written in the form of two people arguing with each other about their personal favourites. (more or less) Only the intro and the final conclusions is supposed to be read as being objective.

That quote of yours is simply from the "Newton guy".

Re:"Winner?"

[magetoo]

Ah, and now I see that I'm not the first one to point that out, and that I'll look like a complete idiot. Great.

Oh well, I guess I'll can try for a save by the obligatory "+4 Insightful? What are the moderators smoking today?!" comment. Hmm. Nah.

Re:"Winner?"

[apflwr3]

The Samsung machine tries to be a swiss army knife of portable computing, and it does everything it claims, but it lacks the most important aspects of such a mini toolkit: portability. 2.5 hours isn't portable, that won't even last you a flight of any distance, and it actually places an upper limit on the length of movies you can watch with it's much praised video playing capabilities

Yes, 2.5 hours is too short. But you can buy a second battery. Perhaps the optional long life battery which is (supposedly) twice the capacity. Or two extra batteries if you take regular flights from N.Y. to Korea.

(Yes, I said buy. I'm assuming cost is not a variable, because the Q1 is $1300 and a working Newton is maybe $50)

Re:"Winner?"

[Doppler00]

The comparison doesn't even make sense. Guess what... the Q1 isn't a PDA! It's not supposed to have a long battery life because it's optimized to run high performance PC applications. Let me see you run a huge Excel spreadsheet, play movies, or any other complex task on the Newton.

If anything, the newton should be compared to palm pilots and pocket PC's. In which case, it loses either way. Yes, for the it's era it was superior, but it's a joke to compare it to todays technology.

Re:"Winner?"

[Doppler00]

So how do people get by with laptops that only work 2.5 hours a day? Hmm... And even Apple makes laptops that only last this long.

Re:"Winner?"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd hope that after 10 friggin' years that it would have much better technology! Too bad the battery life sucks.

Re:"Winner?"

[jamar0303]

Why would you want to? With a screen that small, the Q1 is unfit for such things (well... maybe watching a movie, but I'd go for the Sony UX series over this one in that case anyway because the Samsung doesn't seem to have the battery life that is required for such a task) and even if you were to give it a bigger screen, the battery life pretty much keeps this thing from being a TRUE mobile PC.

Re:"Winner?"

[duffel]

Who wants to change batteries during a movie? Yes, you can buy an extra battery, but if you have to, it's clearly a design flaw.

Re:"Winner?"

[Jasin Natael]

The Nokia E61. It just needs a better calendar app, and it's good to go. Quad-band GSM, UMTS, WCDMA, SIP Telephony, 802.11g, Bluetooth 1.2, Infrared, and awesome battery life -- 3 long days of push email and phone calls under medium-heavy usage for me. The keyboard is great, it supports all kinds of flavors of push-email (including Blackberry Connect), and it weighs a tad over 5 ounces.

It comes with a whole productivity suite, there's a version of Adobe Reader available for it, and you can even download a driver for bluetooth keyboards (I keep an old MS keyboard in my car)... I have to shut up now, but I really can't rave enough about this thing.

Re:"Winner?"

[mgblst]

No it isn't! Security through obscurity is having a really weak system, but keeping quiet about it and hoping nobody will figure it out. Like storing passwords in a txt file called freqlog.dll - and hoping that nobody will try to read it.

Re:"Winner?"

[TangoCharlie]

Which display is sharper? Which is brighter? Which is clearer? Which screen allows more versatility?

How about "Which display shows text for the longest without running out of batteries?", or "Which display wastes precious battery life by having unnecessary features?". The display is one of the biggest battery power eaters. So deciding that that big colour rich display is actually a liability is perfectly valid. And, what's the point of a lovely display if you can't see anything on because the battery has died? Try this test.... use the Q1 and the Newton continuously for 3 hours.... which one has the better display now? Newton: Greyscale :-( Q1: All-dark :-(((

Only one thing I can say

[Anonymous Coward]

"Eat up Martha"

Re:Only one thing I can say

[Anonymous Coward]

gets ranked offtopic; noone gets the joke. kudos my friend, i got it :)

Re:Only one thing I can say

[Golias]

gets ranked offtopic; noone gets the joke. kudos my friend, i got it :)

Right, because nobody on Slashdot has ever watched The Simpsons. You and that other guy were the only ones in the whole damn world that remember that reference.

Or maybe, just maybe, it could be that it's not really as funny as it used to be, seeing as the Newton is a long-dead technology (which actually had the handwriting recognition down really well shortly before it was killed off.)

anything

[stoolpigeon]

just about anything would beat the q1 in my book on battery life alone. 2.5 hours? That's just not going to cut it. Throw in the price on top of that and I just can't see it. I can get a nice laptop for less. This isn't that much smaller than one anyway-- they recommend carrying it in a bag.

Re:anything

[Sexc0w]

they recommend carrying it in a bag.

No problem! Just tuck it into your manbag!

http://news.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/0,39029672,49281766 ,00.htm

Re:anything

[teh kurisu]

I used a Camelbak Zoid for a while, for carrying around my various gadgets (as well as some handy water!). It worked perfectly, but I got a lot of funny looks.

Re:anything

[Ohreally_factor]

Yeah, I laughed at that, too, but then I started to wonder . . .

Does the Q1 warranty cover tea bagging?

Re:anything

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's people's addiction to colour working it's magic..

Re:anything

[Golias]

I used a Camelbak Zoid for a while, for carrying around my various gadgets (as well as some handy water!). It worked perfectly, but I got a lot of funny looks.

If you carried a pink clutch purse with a big heart made of rhinestones on it, you would still look slightly less gay than you probably did when using that thing.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

You could just do what most healthy, homophobic guys do when they have too many gadgets for their pockets: Carry a laptop everywhere, whether you need it or not, just for the sake of the side compartments.

Or cave in and buy the man-purse (a.k.a. "belt pouch", "belly bag", "fanny pack", etc.)

Re:anything

[stoolpigeon]

gadgets are not to blame for man bags friends is.

Re:anything

[timeOday]

Or cave in and buy the man-purse (a.k.a. "belt pouch", "belly bag", "fanny pack", etc.)

It's a European Carry All, you insensitive clod!

UMPC = Stupid Idea

[the linux geek]

I have no idea what M$ was thinking with these "ultra-mobile PCs." They manage to combine the speed of a PDA with the lean-ness of a full Windows with the spaciousness of a small screen, and the result is pathetic. They seem to be trying to doom themselves to a flop far bigger then that of the Newton.

Re:UMPC = Stupid Idea

[maxume]

They might be stupid, but they are the future. Think of it less as a computer and more as a memory stick with a screen and operating system so you can poke at the data when you don't have a better computer and screen around. Besides, the processing power of a PDA is sufficient for some large, increasing percentage of computing tasks.

Re:UMPC = Stupid Idea

[Deathlizard]

The idea is sound, it's the hardware thats the problem.

MS is trying to start a market based on hardware that will basicially doom it. PDA's work because their designed to run for long periods of time using almost no battery life. The Hardware industry just isn't equipped to produce a x86 based device that can even remotely compete with a PDA's power curve.

Eventually, you'll see better screens, hybrid or even flash hard drives and more efficient processors that can make this market more viable if not desirable, especially if they can get in that price range they want, but these current generation models won't be able to compete against a full blown laptop any time soon.

I love my Newton

[Boccaccio]

I love my Newton 2100. I so wish Apple would release a new version. I'd buy it in a second.

Re:I love my Newton

[hey!]

I love my Newton 2100. I so wish Apple would release a new version. I'd buy it in a second.

Why? How could the Newton be made better and still be a Newton? Color? Don't need it. Memory and processor? Got beacoup for a PDA. Wifi and bluetooth would be nice, but with two PCMCIA card slots, that's not a big problem.

All we really need is updated software.

The two things that Newton got wrong were price and form factor. I'll be a bit heretical here and say that price was probably the bigger issue in its market failure. People aren't going to snap up any mobile computing platform for $1000 unless it's a laptop.

Form factor is a two edged sword. The Newton was far to big for a address book and calendar device. But it is far better for viewing text and entering data than any pocket PDA.

If the Newtwon were available today for less than $200, it would create its own application niches.

Re:I love my Newton

[sirinek]

I've still got a Newton 120 sitting on a dock next to me. I havent used it in forever though, just trying to charge up the original rechargables from 1995.

Re:I love my Newton

[pilgrim23]

I have a couple of 2000s and a 130. Amazing how the rush to get the "New Thing" leaves behind such interesting and useful tools. Back a decade ago I could not afford a Newton, today, I use them more then the common PDAs Now that a TCP/IP stack, and various Net (Browser, News reader, telent, etc) tools have been developed, as well as expanded storage , the Newton has just grown in usefulness. The form factor? well, Chinos are perfect for pocketing a Newton!

Re:I love my Newton

[TheRaven64]

How could the Newton be made better and still be a Newton?

It could be made thinner, and the borders around the screen could be made smaller. The handwriting recognition could probably be improved slightly.

Using the Newton UI is a kind of Zen. Everything it does is so obvious you wonder how anyone could possibly conceive of any other way of doing things. You write some text on the screen, and the text is added there. You draw a square, and you get a square. The only way I can see some someone being surprised at a Newton beating a Windows machine is if they had never used a Newton.

Re:I love my Newton

[soft_guy]

I have an MP 100, MP 110, a couple of MP 120s, MP2000, and an eMate 300. I used to be a professional Newton developer. I have all kinds of Newton stuff.

I sure wish the Newton was still around because it was a really nice system.

Re:I love my Newton

[pilgrim23]

You played with Blunt? http://www.40hz.org/Blunt/
get a PCMICACF converter and a CF Bluetooth card and you are good to go. Very very way cool.

Re:I love my Newton

[Sam Haine '95]

Using the Newton UI is a kind of Zen. Everything it does is so obvious you wonder how anyone could possibly conceive of any other way of doing things. You write some text on the screen, and the text is added there. You draw a square, and you get a square.

And that is the mark of truly great user interface design, backed up by extensive human-computer interaction research. The interface is so good that it is 'transparent' and you don't realise that you're using it, you just do what you want to do.

Re:I love my Newton

[Sam Haine '95]

Sorry, the Newton wasn't Steve's idea so it had to die.

Re:I love my Newton

[outZider]

"How could the Newton be made better and still be a Newton?"

Well, check out the Nokia 770 for inspiration. I just got one, and it may just be the closest thing to what I want, in terms of form factor. If Einstein gets off the ground, I /do/ have a better Newton.

Re:I love my Newton

[PowerMacDaddy]

The Newton was far to big for a address book and calendar device.

As the popular Newt-owner saying goes: "Palms & PocketPCs are the right size when you're not using them, but too small when you are, whereas the Newton is too big when you're not using it, but perfectly-sized when you are." As an avid user of both (and I have an eMate 300, too), I can say that this statement hold absolutely true.

I do agree with you, though, that there's not much that Apple would have to do to improve the Newt: give it about 4GB of flash memory, a faster processor, built-in Bluetooth, WiFi, and USB, and get the syncing working with iCal/Address Book/etc. Throw in a WebKit-based browser, QuickTime support, and a VGA video-out dongle and you're done. (And I only added the last two so that you can use it for presenting Keynote-created presentations on LCD projectors.)

And yes, I agree with keeping the screen monochrome so you can still power the thing with cheap AAs for 20 hours continuous.

Re:I love my Newton

[hattig]

Why? How could the Newton be made better and still be a Newton? Color? Don't need it. Memory and processor? Got beacoup for a PDA. Wifi and bluetooth would be nice, but with two PCMCIA card slots, that's not a big problem.

If Apple were to re-release the Newton (hah, yeah right, damn you apple), I'm sure it would be using more modern features.

It could use a very high DPI greyscale OLED display - they're long lasting, lean on power consumption, and compact. Alternatively, and only to keep up with the Jones', it would have a colour TFT display - at the price of battery life. It would use a modern PDA processor that was far faster than the StrongARM previously used, maybe one of TI's OMAP processors, or an Intel (Marvell) XScale. The Newton OS would still run on this.

Integration of necessary technology for a modern device would have to be done - namely bluetooth and wifi. Addition of an SD card reader too.

I'm sure that Apple would also style it nicely - they've come a long way since the 90s! However the aesthetics of a device are an unimportant factor compared to battery life, screen quality and software usability and suitability.

As long as Apple kept the long battery life as the number one priority, they'd have a desirable device that was actually useful for the users. The battery life is a core issue for mobile devices, and this is why UMPC devices are pointless. People still use Newtons. I doubt that people will be using the same UMPC or Windows Mobile PDA in 10 years time however (even if production was stopped).

However I think we'll actually see Apple expand the iPod OS to incorporate further features instead of the Newton OS returning. We might possibly see Mac OS X cut down as well - the one-click interface is very well suited to these tasks.

Anyone else get amused by the screenshots of the UMPC with things like "Press F1 for help" and so on?

Re:I love my Newton

[gnushell]

I have two Newton 2000s. One I still use from time to time, and I also love it. I have long wished that either a good linux port or scaled down OS X distro would become available for it - ell that and WiFi of some sort. Sadly, Steve Jobs said that he hated those little "tappy things", so I doubt they'll ever revive the product line.

Re:I love my Newton

[swell]

I love my Newtons too. I was sorry to see that they aren't worth much in the current market.

It would be interesting to compare these same two computers after another ten years. I suspect the Newt will have gained value (if only as a collectors item) and the other (what was it called?) will be worthless.

That said, I'm saving up for a Treo 700 or better and my Newtons will be relegated to ceremonial chores appropriate to their august years (they'll be alarm clocks and midnight note-taking devices). Nostalgia is fine but new stuff can be fun and practical.

Re:I love my Newton

[fermion]

The thing is that the Newton was a very cool machine. The fundamentals of the machine would not have to change. Advances in technology would mean the screen would be smaller with the same resolution, PCMCIA is replaced with a CF card one PC , one mini usb connector, bluetooth, and wireless. We are talking basically the same machine at half the size. TCP/IP was already built is, as was full internet access.

In fact the only big thing that would be different, and the thing that will make it useful, is .mac synchronization. It would be then be the mac.

My hope, as always, is that we see such a machine if an when Apple introduces a phone. While a minimal iPod mini type phone would be wonderful, a Newton like treo competitor would be awesome.

Re:I love my Newton

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll be a bit heretical here and say that price was probably the bigger issue in its market failure.

At the time that the Newton division was axed it was not losing money, it just wasn't making gobs of it.
Apple said they cut it to keep focus on their core (the Macintosh machines+OS). (And that decisions probably saved the company!)

But, Apple also said that the Newton could come back once the company returned to stability.
So, here I am waiting!

Re:I love my Newton

[Shanep]

I love my Newton 2100. I so wish Apple would release a new version. I'd buy it in a second.

Me too. I had an MP 120 and feel that the bad wrap the Newton got for the handwriting recognition was unfounded. After a short while of training it became very accurate. Far more accurate than my Palm Tungsten E and certainly more natural to use, since I could write across the screen naturally, even in cursive, instead of writing characters on top of each other in special locations.

If apple released a PDA in the form factor of say the Palm Tungsten TX, but with the handwriting recognition of the Newton, I'd be all over it. If they added voice recognition to it as an alternative input, that would be awesome too.

Newton in a red shirt

[general scruff]

"Its dead Jim"

It's the usability, stupid!

[mrchaotica]

Of course the Newton won -- considering that it runs software custom-designed for mobile PIM use, while the Q1 is more-or-less running normal desktop Windows (tablet edition, whoop-de-do), was there ever any doubt?

Newton Advantages

[Feneric]

I wrote a bit about this before. The Newton does a lot of things well as it was designed from the ground up to be a hand-held device. As a consequence it's still seeing use, still seeing third-party development, and still more usable than some devices currently getting produced.

It's not ideal, either; it could definitely use a diet to shed some weight, and these days features like wireless, bluetooth, etc. shouldn't have to be added via cards. An evolutionary development of the Newton platform could easily beat almost any other device on the market today, though.

Re:Newton Advantages

[WindBourne]

Funny thing is, that Apple could still pick this up again and use it inconjunction with ipod and the desktop. This is the one place that I believe that jobs is missing.

Re:Newton Advantages

[MrFlibbs]

This reminds me of my favorite Newton joke. I first saw this a few months after the Newton release:

Q: What's two plus two?
A: Farm

Re:Newton Advantages

[linj]

An evolutionary development of the Newton platform could easily beat almost any other device on the market today, though.


Oh noes! How many Newtons will have to die for the perfect Newton to be complete? Think of the children! (:

Re:Newton Advantages

[itsdapead]

Funny thing is, that Apple could still pick this up again and use it inconjunction with ipod and the desktop. This is the one place that I believe that jobs is missing.

Nah - I think that the whole PDA/Desktop concept will be squeezed out between laptops, media players and phones.

A MacBook (or similar form factor Windows PC) is now more than sufficient as a main computer for most "office" users, and eminently portable. Desktop systems are looking increasingly niche (important niches, maybe, but niches). The logical ergonomic place for "portable" contacts/diary/email is on a phone (which can be synced to your laptop). Having a separate media player (a) means that you don't run down the batteries on your "mission-critical" gadgets and (b) keeps business separate from pleasure (if your 'phone and laptop belong to your employer) - and iPods can act as a backup contact/calendar device.

Re:Newton Advantages

[soft_guy]

The story I heard was that they actually lost the source code for many of the key components needed to do anything with the Newton. Possibly they lost the source to the OS itself. This had to do with the mass exodus of everyone in the Newton group during the chaotic period of transition between Gil Amelio as CEO and Steve Jobs.

Re:Newton Advantages

[mav[LAG]]

Q: How many Newton users does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Foo! To axe gravy soup

Re:Newton Advantages

[Anonymous Coward]

Jobs was the one who specifically killed the Newton project.

MS falls victim to one of the classic blunders

[blueZ3]

The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is "Never use a desktop OS, when your device isn't a desktop." (maniacal laughter)

How many situations do you know of where something that was a good solution to one problem has now become the default solution to every problem? It's the old saw about when your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

When you choose Windows as your OS, every device works like a desktop. It doesnt' matter that the screen is tiny, you use the "desktop" metaphor and the "Start" menu. It doesn't matter that there's limited memory and a slow processor, you use the Windows applications (lite versions, but still bloatware). This is why I've never seriously considered a WinCE device, even though I've owned a PDA since 2000 and a phone/PDA combo since 2004, and two of the computers in my house run Windows.

I want something that's designed for the use it's being put to -- fit for purpose, we used to call it. If Microsoft's vaunted usability expertise were real, they would have abandoned the "Mini Windows" metaphor on mobile devices long ago.

The Newton Already Lives On...

[mattybinks]

just in segmented form. It's sprinkled throughout OS X and the iPod. One can only hope that an iPhone would bring the bulk of that functionality and organizational power back in one device. And if you're really obsessive about using a Newton on newer technology, check out the Einstein project. It's moving along at a good pace.

Re:The Newton Already Lives On...

[Anonymous Coward]

Other bits of its technology are still around in other places, too... the Newton book reader for Firefox is one pretty neat example.

Re:The Newton Already Lives On...

[Sam Haine '95]

So what parts of the Newton live on in OS X?

Re:The Newton Already Lives On...

[mattybinks]

1. Ink handwriting recognition is directly from Newton but probably modified (at least that's what I heard) 2. Poof animations and sounds (i think) are from the Newton as well 3. UI concept of Drawers that's all i can think of off the top of my head.

Whatever?

[Aeomer]

So the historically bias C-NET declares Apple Newton the winner - wow didn't see that coming. (Sarcastic tone intended) Ok, I think the Newton was better, too. But, C-Net is not the place to read such things - they think the iPod has good sound quality when actually the SNR is around 83db.

Newton still beating them long after it died

[falcon5768]

I have gone through a number of palm, handspring, and Win Moble devices and my eMate despite it's size is still probably the best one out there. For a device thats been dead for ages I can go wireless, use it as a email device, type a report without distractions, pull up index cards, and just about everything else a moble platform should do without being flashy and running faster than any of the devices I have used since. Quite frankly the MIT laptop SHOULD have been a redesigned eMate. 99% of what they are trying to do with it is exactly what the eMate did except was expensive at the time.

Re:Newton still beating them long after it died

[commodoresloat]

What wireless card are you using? I bought one of these a few years ago for $50, spent another $75 on various cards and adapters to try and get the information from the newton into my Mac, to no avail. Could not get a wireless connection to work, and could not get it to sync information to the Mac using serial adapters and whatnot. I LOVE the emate form factor and would use it in a second if I knew a way to transfer the information on there to my desktop or to email. Even better if I could use it to browse the web and such.

Re:Newton still beating them long after it died

[Captain DaFt]

Well, I don't know how Falcon did it, but there is an excellent howto on Geek Technique that shows how to do it with
a Lucent WaveLAN Orinoco Silver-card. http://geektechnique.org/projectlab/669/getting-yo ur-emate-wireless

Not a Cookie ... Fruit and Cake

[Migraineman]

I've always thought the "Apple Newton" was an unfortunate name choice. I prefer the Nabisco product myself, though the "apple"-types appear to have been discontinued in favor of Strawberry and Raspberry. There's a new "Caramel Apple Newtons" on the market, though.

Is this the right comparison?

[LS]

Should they be comparing the Newton with a minaturized desktop PC, or should they be comparing it with a Palm Pilot or Windows Mobile? It seems like the comparison is really between *cough* uhh apples and oranges. The Q1 device is clearly targeted at a market that wants power and functionality in a handheld, while Windows Mobile devices are aimed at efficient usability (or at least that's the goal). Anyway, this comparison is a non sequitur of sorts...

LS

Re:Is this the right comparison?

[cowscows]

I think the point is that "functionality" is a little more complicated than how much you can actually cram inside a particular sized box.

The Q1 technically can do all of these bullet points that it has listed, but in every day use, the limitations in the design make those bullet points infeasible in real, everyday use. The battery life being the most significant example. It sounds to me like the Q1 needs to spend half its time plugged in to the wall, which basically kills the whole "handheld" aspect of it.

I'm sure there are a handful of people who have particular computing needs that the Q1 fits perfectly into. But that doesn't mean that it's any less flawed for the rest of us, nor does it mean there's nothing that it can't learn from the Newton. As for Newton vs. palm pilot/windows mobile, I'm sure you can find plenty of those comparisons already done. In this case, the newton was compared with the Q1 because the Q1 is the new hotness, looks a whole lot like the Netwon, and many of the comparisons are obvious.

Re:Is this the right comparison?

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here, of course the comparison is fair, Apple came out the winner! I will let my fellow Apple colleagues go on and on about why things are correct, even though they don't seem to be. Chances are a bunch of great analogies will come out of this discussion!

On the other hand... If the results came out the other way, then the comparison is wrong and unfair... And any analogies that come out in support of those not-nice results are totally flawed!

Re:Is this the right comparison?

[LS]

I get your point, but how does that relate to my comment? For example, would you compare some new mini-tractor from Catepillar with a Civic from 13 years ago? The new tractor might have a terrible design regardless of what you compare it to, but that's beside the point. The point of this article is to compare the two products, and the point of my comment is to note that the comparison is flawed.

LS

Re:Is this the right comparison?

[metalligoth]

I disagree. Outside of colour, massive storage, and video playback, that ten year old Newton does everything the handheld PC does. Much of that is thanks to a strong community keeping the device alive. The Newton has Wi-Fi, so the Newton can listen to streaming audio over the Web, wirelessly. My PDA that I just purchased last year doesn't even do that.

Re:Is this the right comparison?

[cowscows]

I think you're seeing the comparison too much as a "You should buy this one instead of this other one" type deal, when in reality, it's a comparison for almost a historical sake.

A catepillar and a civic have purposes that are much more different from each other than a Q1 and a Newton. I would say this comparison was more like a 13 year old Civic with a new Ford Mustang. While the Mustang is certainly flashier, and can do things that the civic could never hope to accomplish, that doesn't mean that there aren't qualities to the Civic that we might appreciate, and which we wish had made it to this new Mustang. Although in this case, let's pretend that the Mustang can only go 20 miles before needing to refuel, while the Civic can go well over 200+. (You've probably noticed that I feel the Q1's battery life makes it mostly useless). If that were the case, it'd be even closer to the Q1 vs. Newton comparison. And I think in that scenario, the 13 year old Civic would come out the winner.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that the comparison in the original argument does has some value. It shows that the growth in capabilities that we've seen in handhelds over the past 10 years has come at the expense of some good features (battery life), and that that trade-off might not be for the best.

Handwriting Input

[clickclickdrone]

I heve a nevt0n amd th3 h&ndvritin9 rec0gwiti0n i5 reallg g00b. It rock5!

Re:Handwriting Input

[ratboy666]

An interesting joke, clickclickdrone. FYI, the Newton would not have made those kinds of mistakes!
It used a combination of strategies, including dictionary lookup. "rock5" would not have been found in the dictionary, so "rocks" would have been chosen. Same thing for "reallg". Interestingly, if the Newton recognizer would have come up with your sample, it would have fixed it into the correct sentence.

Of course, it may have gotten the context completely wrong, "have" may be "haven", "haste", "nave", whatever, because grammar was not incorporated.

Also, Newton tried to be a "personal assistant" -- so it tried to interpret what you had written as instructions. Famously, it was elvis centric: asking it where elvis was would bring up the world map, with an elvis sighting. This, coupled with the context issue, could make for funny results.

And now you know the source of the Newton joke "What is two plus two?".

Ratboy

Re:Handwriting Input

[clickclickdrone]

Jeez. Let it never be said American's have no sense of humour. Even the mods are having a hard time with it - the mod bonuses have been going up and down like a yoyo since I posted it and now it's back to zero having had everything from +2 to -1 applied.

Review is meaningless, victory was purely emotiona

[RingDev]

"Although the Q1 won more points, the Newton was declared the overall winner of the battle and was crowned by CNET.co.uk in an emotional ceremony."

In other words, the Q1 beat the Newton 5 to 3. Although I personally think the Q1 should have won the Price point also as you can not buy a new Newton like the one they tested. So it just comes down to the editor being a Mac fan or Windows hater.

-Rick

For people too lazy to RTFA

[Ant P.]

(and I don't blame them, it's crap)

Here's an analogy: Q1 = PSP, Newton = 1989 Game Boy.

Is this a surprise?

[Weasel5053]

Of course the whole point of the Samsung Q1 is that it runs regular Windows XP and therefore Windows XP compatible applications. Obviously an OS specifically developed for a mobile format would be superior in some areas on a mobile device.

Current devices lose site of simplicity

[jbarr]

I wrote an article a few months back on my attempt at simplifying my PDA use, and after a couple months, I really prefer the PDA simplicity over the bloated complexity of handheld PC's.

You see, the problem with so many current handheld devices is that they simply try to do everything, and they end up doing nothing well. The new handheld devices (Windows-based or otherwise) completely miss the point of handheld efficiency and productivity. I had a chance to play around with an oQo for a week, and once I got over the "wow" factor, it turns out that using it was simply a nuisance--I longed for my Palm PDA. The allure and success of Newton and PalmOS PDA's was that you could simply and quickly store and retrieve information in a pocketable or portable device. The designs were simple yet powerful, and they were elegant. Yes, there were many slams against the HWR, but the fact remains that these devices were extremely useful, and they did exactly what they were designed to do.

Now, over a decade later, where are we? Yes, we have convergent devices that can do a myriad of tasks, but really, how truely functional are they? Getting text data INTO the devices is still tedious at best, and synchronizing the data is often hit-or-miss. OK, so MANY people have great success (myself included) but the "perfect PDA/handheld" simply doesn't yet exist.

Re:Current devices lose site of simplicity

[dingen]

The allure and success of Newton...

I'm sorry, "the success of the Newton"? Are you on crack?

Re:Current devices lose site of simplicity

[ParanoidJanitor]

Since the Q1 is running XP and has USB ports, it would be simple to use a plug-and-play keyboard. So that would solve the text input problem. There are even roll-up keyboards that you could use. The main problem with the Q1 is that it wasn't designed with a task in mind any more than a typical laptop. So essentially, there is no real advantage over a laptop.

Another main concern about the Q1 is the battery life. From personal experience I've squeezed quite a bit of extra battery life by turning the screen brightness down (that raises another question, does the Newton have a backlight or are you SOL if you want to use it in the dark?) Another reason for the low battery life is, of course, the HDD. The Newton runs completely on flash memory so it makes sense that it requires a lot less power to run. I'd be interested to see how much the battery life on the Q1 would be affected if a hybrid drive were used.

I'd also be interested to see what one of these things would perform like when running Linux.

Reality check.

[PFI_Optix]

The Newton is essentially a big PDA.

The Q1 is a small tablet (laptop).

The article seemed most interested in their roles as PDAs. OF COURSE the PDA will win.

Let's compare the Newton with some good CE-based handhelds and see what we find.

Re:Reality check.

[soft_guy]

Let's compare the Newton with some good CE-based handhelds and see what we find.

That would be a impossible since "good CE-based handheld" is an oxymoron.

If you mean "current CE-based handheld", the Newton would still win.

Never get involved in a land war in Asia?

[Tuirn]

or was it: Never go in against a Sicilian, when death is on the line?

Re:Never get involved in a land war in Asia?

[Anonymous Coward]

Inconcievable!

Re:MS falls victim to one of the classic blunders

[Anonymous Coward]

How many situations do you know of where something that was a good solution to one problem has now become the default solution to every problem?

Obligatory:

When was Windows a good solution for anything?

(Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Biased? Never!

[BumpyCarrot]

Anyone comparing a modern machine with a 10 year old one obviously has an agenda.

Re:Biased? Never!

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone comparing a modern machine with a 10 year old one obviously has an agenda.

Agendas were pretty good PDAs as well! Check out the 5-button keyboard used to enter characters 'blind'... http://www.geoff.org.uk/museum/microwriter.htm

From TFA

[jrobinson5]

"So whether you're a 1337 Windows haxx0r..." Is there such a thing?

Re:MS falls victim to one of the classic blunders

[supremegeekoverlord]

This is why I've never seriously considered a WinCE device, even though I've owned a PDA since 2000 and a phone/PDA combo since 2004, and two of the computers in my house run Windows

Your post probably holds up for this particular case, or even a plain old Windows CE device, but I hope you didn't mean that Pocket PC/Windows Mobile is just as bad. In that case they did mostly abandon the "'mini Windows' metaphor," ditching the desktop and minimalizing the start menu. Maybe that's still too much for you, but they did modify it enough for some serious bloat reduction & screen conservation while still keeping Windows users at home.

I'm not a Microsoft fanboy, and looking at Hotmail/"Windows Live Mail"'s usability makes me want to puke, but I do own an old PPC 2002, and I had to comment.

suggest a doodle-ing PDA / wifi / software???

[kisrael]

I've been using Palm since 1997.

For the past few years its been a Sony CLIE, PEG-SJ22. Nice simple unit, good form factor (Palm always makes its smaller Palms skinny and long, rather than reducing the width), good everything, though the touchscreen is very "noisy".

I've had a few ok doodle/sketch programs for it over the years, including some that used smoothing algorithms, but nothing that was A. color B. smoothing and C. transfering a doodle to PC via IR or over a network

Right now I'm jonesing for a Fujitsu P1510D, which has a touch sensitive screen (I like that better I think than the weird floating sensor of most Tablet PCs) but it seeems likely to cost me at least $1300... I like the idea of a truly (stow it and forget it PC) as well, but it seems steep for just a little art pad, given my doodle-nature.

Any suggestions for something with a really good doodle program on a touch sensitive screen, where I can easily get the resulting sketch up to my website?

Re:suggest a doodle-ing PDA / wifi / software???

[Peganthyrus]

I'm a professional artist. I just carry around a sketchbook, and have a handful of pencils and pens rattling around in the bottom of my purse or in a pencil case.

It's US$30 if you really splurge on a sketchbook, usually more like $12-$15 for a perfectly functional Canson black-cover book. Anywhere from $5 for an interesting pen down to $1 for a twelve-pack of Ticonderoga 2.5B pencils. You can go spend hundreds on a Fine Writing instrument, and I've enjoyed and cherished $80 fountain pens myself, but it's far from necessary.

Add in an eighty-dollar Canon LiDE scanner at home, a few Photoshop macros I've made for cleaning up the scans based on what medium I used (nothing smart, just a pile of ones with names like 'sketchbook pencil', 'sketchbook mech pencil', 'sketchbook pen'), and a bookmark for the management page of my website's gallery.

Sure, new pencils and pens and sketchbooks add up over time. But even at my most prolific, I'll completely fill a book in about two months at most (one month if I only draw on one side of the leaves). No upgrading, no glare issues, no worrying about losing the stylus.

I can't play movies or browse the web with a sketchbook, but hell, if I'm doing that, I'm not drawing, am I?

If I go on an extended trip and draw a lot, then I have a larger sketchbook dump than usual when I get back. Checking my mail can wait until I'm home, too.

Re:suggest a doodle-ing PDA / wifi / software???

[kisrael]

I see your artistic get things done side is overriding your geek have fun playing with toys side!

Interesting site. I know some people whose lives are in odd parallel to yours.

Re:suggest a doodle-ing PDA / wifi / software???

[Peganthyrus]

I just spent a week and a half comparing a dozen various CMSs for a web comic I'm starting. I have my geek moments too!

I think most people going through the kinds changes I am have certain parallels. There's a handful of stories we fit ourselves to; so far mine's been a happy ending.

Review misses the point

[hcdejong]

The USP of the Newton was the way its applications worked together. The ability to write 'lunch John' and have the system guess the time and which person you were referring to is what sets it apart from most information managers.
The fact that this feature still is this rare is mindboggling, by the way. What have the world's application developers been doing for the last decade? The future's there for the copying, but instead we get more crap shoveled down our throats.

Odd evaluations

[Rocketship Underpant]

The Cnet article gushes over the Q1 a lot actually -- for a lot of bizarre reasons. Under part 1, design:

"The Samsung logo at the bottom of the unit, the SRS surround-sound logo ... hint at the device's massive potential."

So the Q1 wins for having lots of prominent logos? Logos = massive potential? I'm sure glad this guy doesn't design iPods.

Boxing glove photos

[the_tsi]

The boxing photos at the top of each section sorta scared me. Did anyone else get the feeling the two dudes were gonna start making out?

The Q1 has 25-bit color, too!

[Yvan256]

If you want to bask in the glory of 17.6 million colours while browsing still images and watching movies, grab yourself a Q1.

Last time I checked, 24-bit color = 16.7M colors, not 17.6M. Hey, don't look at me, this is a typical Slashdot comment! :p

How to improve Newton

[metamatic]

1. Lose the PCMCIA, replace with SD.

2. Built in WiFi and Bluetooth.

3. Make it slightly smaller and lighter. May require shift to AAA instead of AA. I'd settle for any size larger than any current Palm OS PDA but smaller than the 2100.

4. Give it USB instead of serial.

5. Make it work with iSync and define an open communications protocol.

6. Maybe a higher resolution grayscale screen.

7. Faster CPU.

8. PDF support and web browser in the core OS.

I'd buy the result for pretty much any amount of money up to $1000, seriously. I don't care if people in general want it to be less than $200, I don't see anything on the market that competes so I'm prepared to pay more.

It's a damn tragedy that the Newton was killed by Jobs. It's the one thing he's done that I'm still bitter about.

Re:How to improve Newton

[Marcos Eliziario]

Actually I would vote for custom Li-ION internal batteries (but, in that case, user-replaceable, of course). Anyone knows if it's possible to have some kind of dual mode LCD, that could work either in full color mode, or in grayscale(and low power) mode?

Re:How to improve Newton

[hey!]

Most of your ideas are sound. Lighter: definitely. SD card: certainly. But there is no way that any mobile device priced near $1000 is every going to be a runaway hit.

Anybody seriously considering spending $1000 for a mobile device too big to put in your pocket has to consider a laptop as an alternative. Heck, event the current generation PDAs are competing with laptops. And losing.

That's the problem with adding too many features to a mobile platform. It creates confusion, and undermines the appeal of the platform.

Consider the iPod. There are media jukebox devices out there that do a lot more. There are MP3 players that are smaller and cheaper (if you don't count the ridiculous gumstick version of the iPod). But it's the right size to support certain features, supports them well, and cheap enough that while a bit pricey from the per feature standpoint, it's well within the scope of an impulse buy. They know what they're getting is an elegant little device that's a pleasure to use.

It's called having a "market position". Consumers considering a product need to know why they want it. For the Newton, the natural postion would be: the most convenient platform to manage lots information on. Why? Because it's big enough to do real work on, which a PDA is not, yet you never have to worry about batteries, which is not the case with a laptop. The problem is that at $1000, it would never be seen as a practical tool. It would always be an exotic gadget; the only people to buy it would be the same group of people who bought it before: the gadget hounds.

So, I'd say if you could produce the MP2100 at, say $200 (I know that real world economics doesn't work that way), or a next generation device with all the bells and whistles costing $1000, possibly with less battery life, it seems to me that $200 MP2100 would have a better shot. As a thought experiment.

Naturally, nobody would build the MP2100 today. At the very least nobody would put a pair of PCMCIA cards on a mobile device. Necessarily we'd be talking about a more modernized device. Probably you'd want a large amount of flash, SD, and most importantly reduced weight. But in no case should any feature undermine the core appeal of the device, which is battery life. The device needs to run forever at a price that anybody who sees the benefit will not hesitate to pay.

The same goes for the tablet PC form factor. The form factor is self evidently logical. But why may comparable prices to a laptop for the absence of a keyboard? What kind of pitch is that? Yes, I know there are reasons, but they're too complicated to explain in a compelling way to a consumer. To the average user, a tablet is just a latop with a detachable kehyboard. Personally, I'd keep a keyboard port, but lose the keyboard altogether, shoorting for a price that represents a kind of psychological benchmark. In other words, to jumpstart demand for the tablet form factor, you need and offering at $500. After that, you can offer $1000 tablets, or $2000 tablets, but only after people "get it".

Re:How to improve Newton

[metamatic]

I wasn't suggesting that $1000 was a viable market price; I was providing that figure as an indication of how damn much I want such a device. A laptop is not an alternative, because laptops are too big to carry everywhere.

Really, it's like I'm saying I want a copy of The Elements of Java Style, and you're saying "Well, anyone who can afford Java books will just get a copy of the hardback Java Professional Library".

Yes, the latter encompasses the functionality of the former, but the form factor makes it useless.

Similarly, yes, anyone who can afford a 60GB iPod could use the same money to buy a rack of superior audio gear and some shelves for their CD collection. Does that mean the iPod can't possibly sell?

Re:How to improve Newton

[BionicPimp]

Just out of curiosity, what would it take to design a newton replacement from the ground up? I mean, as a community, slashdot probably has everybody that would be required. I wouldn't be suprised if the guy that *invented* the newton was a slashdot reader. It would be interesting to see if a community/open source *hardware* project would be viable.

Re:How to improve Newton

[hey!]

Similarly, yes, anyone who can afford a 60GB iPod could use the same money to buy a rack of superior audio gear and some shelves for their CD collection. Does that mean the iPod can't possibly sell?

I'm suggesting that it can't possibly sell if the entrypoint for the product line is the 60GB iPod.

To be clear, I'm not saing the MP should not be updated if it ever comes back. What I'm saying is that even using ten year old technology, it's still a damned good PDA, one that would sell if the price was right.

The key point is that I don't think mobile technology sells unless the entry to the product line is cheap enough you can justify buying one on the basis of being intrigued. If you can't try it out without thinking of it as an investment, it isn't going to go anywhere.

Re:How to improve Newton

[bsims]

> 8. PDF support and web browser in the core OS.

9. Licence Palm eReader, or pay to have uBook ported.

This device would /own/ the ebook market...

Re:How to improve Newton

[Doppler00]

3. Make it slightly smaller and lighter. May require shift to AAA instead of AA. I'd settle for any size larger than any current Palm OS PDA but smaller than the 2100.

Lithium polymer/ion would be a better choice. AAA batteries have terrible energy density. You'd also make the device smaller.

6. Maybe a higher resolution grayscale screen.
There is abosultely no need for grayscale anymore. Transreflective color screens work great.

"I'd buy the result for pretty much any amount of money up to $1000, seriously. "
They could sell something like this for less than $200 easily. The hardware isn't that big of a deal. It's the software that made the Newton famous.

Re:How to improve Newton

[metamatic]

The biggest problem would be getting the money together to start production. Custom rubberized plastic casings and so on aren't cheap to produce.

Re:How to improve Newton

[Portfolio]

Funny thing is I already use my Newton for E-Books:

* The Times font is easy on the eyes.
* Back light makes it nice to read in bed.
* There is a nice Mac/Win app called Paperback which converts any text file (such as Gutenberg texts) into a Newton E-Book.
* For more formatting control, Apple published their own Newton Press.
* Both of these technologies are searchable, which also makes the Newton great for storing reference material.

Re:Review is meaningless, victory was purely emoti

[dfghjk]

not to mention that the newton won on the highly subjective design category with one of the arguments being that it's uncluttered with buttons. kind of like the ipod not being cluttered with an on/off button when it can't ever be turned off (it only pretends to be off). Apple has a history of sacrificing function for form yet always gets credit for it.

Apt comparison!

[Anonymous Coward]

Flamebait? This makes perfect sense.

Re:Apt comparison!

[Ant P.]

Looks like I hurt a PSP fanboy's feelings.

Why?

[BenjyD]

I can't really see a purpose for the Q1. With a 2.5 hour battery life (probably more like 2hrs in real usage) it's no good as a media player and it's too big to be a PDA. It's not going to replace a laptop without an add on keyboard and stand, which would make it even harder to carry around and increases the price further.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

RTFA, the Q1 has a stand built into the back of it. The keyboard is still a problem though.

Re:Review is meaningless, victory was purely emoti

[MikeBabcock]

The only functional buttons I can think of on a PDA include volume, brightness and a scroll wheel (I liked the jog wheel on the Sonys).

I don't want buttons on the front of my PDA -- that's what the screen is for.

Re:MS falls victim to one of the classic blunders

[MikeBabcock]

I've been using a PDA since 1994 when I got my first Apple Newton (later replaced by my Newton MessagePad 120) and I must say I've never found a suitable replacement since. Its quite sad, really.

Why compare an orange to a 747?

[OfNoAccount]

The whole point of the UMPC is that it's a real x86 PC that fits in your, admittedly rather large, pocket.

The Newton is a PDA. Can you run Photoshop on it? No. Watch video? Not really. Store all your pr0n^C^C holiday snaps? No. If you want to do any of those things (like I do) then the Newton scores -1, the UMPC is +5

At the moment they're good at different tasks. If you want a PDA, buy a PDA. If you're after a PC that fits on your pocket, buy a UMPC (or a Vaio UX, or OQO, or...)

I used my Vaio C1F for many years, I also used a variety of Psion/PocketPC/Palm devices. The C1F I upgraded and want a replacement for, the PDAs were gathering dust pretty much as soon as they arrived home - for me a simple pocket diary works better than a PDA, as it doesn't require batteries, doesn't erase all your data, is smaller, and way cheaper. At the end of the day though, everyone's different.

Re:Why compare an orange to a 747?

[jimicus]

Why would you want to run Photoshop on an 800x480 screen or watch movies on something which has a 2.5 hour battery life (probably rather less if the backlight of the LCD is constantly on and the hard disk is running continually, which it would be for a movie)?

Having owned many PDAs over the years ...

[Sonic McTails]

I've used PalmOS since 1998-9 (can't remember which), when the Palm VIIx was released. Every one of the palm devices has had wireless internet in some form, and I later owned a Treo 600 and 650 before abandoning both for the T-Mobile MDA/HTC Wizard and Windows Mobile. I never had the joy of owning a Newton, but I did get to try one out (an eMate), and I must say I was extremely convienced. It was like an iBook expect light, turn on type, turn it off, etc. I almost dropped 300 for it then and there for it. Unfortunity, nothing really compares anymore to that. Entering data on the 600 and 650 is tedious because I got big fingers, and that keypad is very small. Syncing worked nicely, and its probably one of the nicest sync packages ever put together (it blows M$ ActiveSync and RIM's desktop sync out of the water). That being said, Windows Mobile probably could beat the Newton. Microsoft tuned it heavily for 5.0, and it runs smoothly, and does extactly what it's susposed to. Entering data on the MDA is easy and quick to do.
 
In regards to the 700p which vasty ups the key size, I would like to say that it was also due to PalmOS's design of only having one app running at any given time was one of the major reasons I abandoned it for Windows Mobile.

Former Newton Developer agrees

[bsandersen]

As a former Newton developer, I am not surprised by the comparisons made today. I've carried Palms, Psions, Blackberrys and everything in-between all the while wishing for some of the very nice features my various flavors of Newton MessagePad had.

The point made that a desktop OS cannot be easily shoehorned into a smaller place cannot be overstated. Software designs, all software designs, have a "design center" that is the embodiment of the environment the original developers envisioned when they made their design decisions. Go too far from that vision and you find some of the tradeoffs those designers made are no longer best, and now possibly may be very bad indeed.

The Newton's programming environment, based on SELF, was augmented with lots of supporting functionality that made creating high-quality applications for the device pretty easy. But, the MessagePads themselves (and remember: this was about 13 year ago now) had insufficient processor power for the really good stuff. Then again, think back about the kinds of junk that infested Palm Pilots and other hand-helds back then! If the MessagePad had been allowed to grow as a platform as all other surviving brands had done, it would have been a powerhouse.

Finally, as a developer, I must point out that one of the problems that all devices like this face is that developers hate investing time learning a new platform. The Newton faced an extra challenge in that you had to learn a whole new programming language and programming model, too. For those of us who gave it a chance, we found the learning curve to be reasonable and the results satisfying. For many programmers, though, inertia and sheer laziness precludes anything that ventures out of their comfort zone.

This last problem, the lazy programmer problem, has cast shadows on much more than just Newton MessagePad sales.

Oblig. Simpsons

[Ohreally_factor]

Eat up Martha

Re:MS falls victim to one of the classic blunders

[Spokehedz]

When all you have is a hammer, all of your problems start to look like nails.

Microsoft has poured a lot... a LOT... Of money into it's OS. They want to re-use as much as possible on it, because they want to:

1. Keep costs down.
2. Keep the interface as similar as possible, to minimize learning curve
3. Introduce as few new bugs as possible, and to keep bug hunting down to a minimum when they do crop up.

So Microsoft's hammer is its OS. And it is a very big hammer. Its not even suited to hammer out the nails that it was designed for anymore. So now to justify the existance of it, they have to invent new ways to use it. They also have to force existing users to buy the hammer over and over again, which just makes it even more of a problem.

This just in...

[Anonymous Coward]

According to a new review Lisa OS outperforms Windows Vista!

It looks like we've been wrong all along with this upgrading stuff. I'm going back to the good old days... I can still get to slashdot on a 1200 baud modem, right?

Lets see more relevent compitition

[c_forq]

I would much rather see how the Newton stacks up against an oqo, a Nokia 770, or a palm device. I have been really thinking of getting a Nokia 770, when a few more apps get ported to the new OS I might pick one up.

Re:Lets see more relevent compitition

[Anonymous Coward]

I own both a MessagePad 2100 (two, actually) and a Nokia 770. The Nokia is excellent at the Internet stuff, is a very good portable media player with good connectivity and is generally pleasant to use. Its HWR blows baby chunks and, especially since the last OS upgrade, it sorely lacks serious productivity apps (a wordprocessor and spreadsheet are what I need).

The Newton has amazing handwriting recognition, five times the battery life (ten times if the 770's wireless is on) and a lot more applications than the 770. Going online is a pain, Newtons sync with nothing and finding compatible expansion cards is really tricky.

Does that help?

It's about the user's requirements

[Anonymous Coward]

Who wins is dependant on the users requirements, if a user requires color then the Q1 would win for that user. If another user required long battery life the newton would win for that user...

How much is the battery life degraded if two cards are being used in the newton at the same time?

Not that remarkable

[penguinstorm]

Ask anyone who owned a Newton -- ok, maybe not the FIRST generation but the later ones -- and this is not remarkable. Newton's worked extremely well, and functioned as my only "personal" computer when I had my First Real Job(tm)

It's a shame really, because Steve killed them as much -- I think -- out of spite for John Sculley as anything else. I'm not saying I *blame* him -- I can only BUY a Mac because Steve did what he did -- but the motivation was very clearly personal on some level.

e-ink

[Jonboy X]

I remember a brief flurry of activity here on /. about the sharpness and power-saving promise of these displays. It seems like if Apple were to incorporate this display tech into something, say, 1/3 the size of the Newton and retain a lot of the old device's capabilities, we'd have a sure winner on our hands.

Where is this tech now? Are there any (viable) devices using it. The last I heard, they were using it mostly in e-book readers, which never quite seemed to get off the ground.

Re:e-ink

[Anonymous Coward]

e-ink still has about a 1 second screen refresh rate, so it's really too slow for most PDA functions. It's best use is as a display for information, not an interface to enter or locate information. e-ink is fantastic in reader applications which is why that's where it's most used (in the consumer electronics sector, anyway), but the public generally hasn't been ready to adopt an eBook reader device due to the limitations (DRM) placed on them by the manufacturers. Now... if Apple were to create an eBook reader and set up the iTunes Book Store with titles priced reasonably I'm sure it'd be a real hit. Sony's new Reader looks pretty reasonable as far as a feature set, but falls flat when you look at the fairly limited number of new titles available for it and the fact that those are priced at nearly the same cost as buying the actual book. *sigh*

Re:e-ink

[RiffRafff]

[...]if Apple were to incorporate this display tech into something, say, 1/3 the size of the Newton [...]

One third? If you did that, you'd lose much of what makes the Newton so enjoyable to use...screen real estate. And, as you get older, you'll appreciate the ability to use larger fonts and still display more than one word per screen. (Ask me how I know ;-) The reaction nowadays when I pull out my Newton 2100 is, "Wow! What's that? That's cool!" And that's before they see the (almost perfect) handwriting recognition, or the way it can straighten lines and perfect curves in drawings. Or the simply intuitive way it all works. At that point, they almost always ask where they can buy one. *sniff*

The new guys at work saw me using my Newton during a meeting; thought it was a company perk, and wanted to know if they would get one!

Damn you, Steve Jobs! After almost ten years, it wobbles the mind what a current-production Newton would be like. Li-po batteries, lighter weight, certainly more apps, built-in WiMAX, Bluetooth, GPS, projected laser keyboard, etc. *Sigh* So sad...

Re:MS falls victim to one of the classic blunders

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep in mind that Pocket PC devices use Windows CE as the underlying core OS with a different shell.

I currently have a Newton 2100...

[Cheerio Boy]

The last of the Newton line. And I regularly use that with WiFi, networking, faxing, as well as any appointments I need to make.

I also share the opinion that the handwriting recognition on the Newton is the best I've ever seen. A friend of mine writes fantasy novels in her spare time and with all the weird names and spellings the damn thing had about a 90% recognition rate for her out of the box. And that was without a lot of training up front. And the thing learns so it's only going to get better.

Plus there's still people developing for the Newton - not too many but they're out there.

My only complaint is that the person who wrote the ATA/CF storage drivers wants almost $100 per Newton to be able to use large CF cards. :-(

But from that same site people are even emulating the Newton on other hardware. That say something in my mind as to how "right" Apple got it with the Newton.

Re:I currently have a Newton 2100...

[Cheerio Boy]

My apologies. It's $60+ US for a single Newton and $85 for a multiple-Newton license. Still expensive but not as bad as I thought.

Re:I currently have a Newton 2100...

[commodoresloat]

yeah, considering you can buy a newton for that price!

Re:I currently have a Newton 2100...

[maynard]

Hey,

would you list what WiFi card you bought for your Newton? It might also be helpful if you could list other useful devices and tips for getting a used Newton 2x00 up and running in the modern world. Thanks a bunch! --M

Re:I currently have a Newton 2100...

[Cheerio Boy]

Well the wifi card I use is an Orinoco Wavelan Gold that I've borrowed from work but the driver and compatibility list is here:

As for other cards I'm using a generic CF->PCMCIA adapter - the kind that the entire CF card is inserted into so nothing sticks out. The part number is PANMCFC2C and it cost me all of $12.

My fax/modem card is a Gateway 2000 Telepath 33.6 with an X-Jack connector on it and requires no added drivers to work.

There is a list of software I have somewhere but I don't have it handy.

Well

[kick_in_the_eye]

I couldn't care less ...

as opposed to the sarcastice I could care less.

What a useless article!

[DestroyAllZombies]

Honestly, this story is in and of itself little more than a troll. Take one out-of-date but partinsanly beloved item, compare it against something new and shiny and cool, then watch the fur fly.

Just imagine if the article came out the other way: "Q1 found to be better than Newton." Nobody would be surprised but we would still have about half of the identical postings. I didn't know we could have AC stories too. Dumb dumb dumb.

Pages of Advertisements

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who won't RTFA until those wankers add a "Print This Article" (AKA Read This Article Without Clicking Through 10 Ad Laden Pages)?

Re:Pages of Advertisements

[TangoCharlie]

Can I suggest FireFox and Adblock. I use it all the time, and I'm always amazed when I use other
peoples browsers just how many Ads there are.... I hardly ever see an advert.... I also use Flashblock to erm... block Flash.

How I Miss My Newton

[ImaNihilist]

I wish they'd bring it back. They actually made a color version, but it never saw the light of day. They had it on display at Innovations at Epcot in Disney.

standard batteries in the newton?!

[hitmark]

are people sure this is a apple device at all?

Re:standard batteries in the newton?!

[RiffRafff]

On early models you could use AA alkalines instead of the NIHM (?) battery pack. Later models like the 2000 and 2100 had an optional battery carrier that you could fill with alkalines and slide in, instead of using the rechargeable packs.

I'm confused...

[__aajqwr7439]

First, it looks as tho CNET's not been following the news lately. They're asking for trouble there with the white guy winning...

Second, what's all this about the United Mining Companies Police in an article about PDAs?

Wait... I get it. Angus sported a portable computing device...

DN

Predict it's demise

[HermMunster]

If I were to be writing about why the Newton was doomed to failure back when it was first released (or even today) the reasons for its failure would be obvious. The Newton lacks what was necessary to make it a useable product. It was under powered, had no real uses, did not communicate over in a way the cell phones do (the way most other PDAs today do). When I read about it and saw it the obvious prediction was that it was doomed to failure because it just sucked, and boy it was a tragic attempt.

It was an idea before it's time but it was happening at a time when Apple and John Sculley was incapable of executing anything. It is amazing that device even made it out the door.

It was under powered, and utterly incapable as a communications device, and crawled out the door of a company unable to execute.

I loved macintoshes back then and I still covet the high end macs of today, but the bottom line was that the newton is better off forgotten rather than compared to current products.

If the Samsung device is what it is it will fail just the same and I'd rather not spend my time thinking about it one bit.

Simpsons Video

[cwalk]

http://live.watchmactv.com/featured/thesimpsons/

Answering your rhetorical question

[Overzeetop]

Color screens that eat batteries for lunch
Portable video to small to watch
Ability to run desktop apps that are too complex and are unusably slow

Hmmm...oh, and wireless connectivity, because every year batteries get better and everyone want's to stay in that 4 hour "sweet spot"

*shakes head*

chip makers dont get it

[sgt scrub]

I don't discount the Q1 for battery life. It isn't Samsung's fault they have to design around power hungry chips. I have an old PIII laptop that gives me an easy 5 hours of constant use. If Intel or AMD or SIS or IBM (processor makers ad nausium) would use the die shrinking technology to put the same amount of performance on a less consuming chip instead of 15 variations of a new more powerful (and more consuming) chip Samsung et el would be able to produce what we want. If Intel made a processor with the same number of transisters as a PIII at .65nm and added the power saving technology they are using on the mobile processors of today it would perform all of the things we want and last 8-10 hours.

Change the Handicaps

[Doc Ruby]

The Newton won that fight because its stability and (12x) longer battery life outpunched the Q1's victories in the other rounds.

What if they tested the Q1 running Linux. which is stable, and often gets much more computing power out of the same electric and HW than Windows? It's not quite a fair comparison, because the Q1 is a Microsoft/Intel joint project. But who says a matchup with a 10-year age difference should be fair? And who says they can't compare a Linux Q1 to a Linux Newton?

Newton, Amiga, Model-T Ford etc.

[tekrat]

Anyone comparing a modern machine with a 10 year old one obviously has an agenda.

Sorry, but sometimes there are valid reasons for comparing modern equipment to a 10-year old machine, and one of those valid reasons may be to remind people that, in some cases, it seems like we had more advanced technology years ago.

As another poster pointed out, on the Newton, you could write "lunch john", and the system would be able to guess what you meant, and file an appointment with John at 12pm, by "learning" that lunch meant noon and John meant "john" from your address book. More modern, suppoedly more advanced systems don't seem to be able to do this.

Also consider another antique relic, the Amiga Personal Computer... a system with a variable size "ram disk" that emulated another drive, and was able to constantly vary it's size to whatever was in it, freeing up available RAM when you deleted something from the ramdisk -- why can't modern systems do this? The amiga also had several other advanced features I still don't see being implemented on so-called "modern" systems.

It's almost as if the dominence of Windows has sent us backwards in terms of where we should be with computers these days. The wildly innovative ideas and experimentation of the industry have given way to dull, plodding bloat and garbage.

As another poster commented "where are the brilliant programmers?". Indeed.

Sometimes we need to be reminded of where we were, to see that we have been going in circles, and innovation is NOT moving forward. Regardless of whether or not the author had an "agenda", I think it's good to point out that today's technology isn't necessarily any better than yesterdays.

As for the Model-T, well, it got pretty good gas mileage. And after almost 100 years of development on the modern internal combustion engine, we're still getting about the same miles per gallon. This isn't to say that the Model-T is as good a car as modern ones in every way, but, in some ways, it can hold it's own despite being a 100-year old design. Old doesn't mean useless.

BREAKING NEWS

[shivermitimbers]

Is steve jobs a supporter of starving niggers? Ronald p. starviniger reports!

NIGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAR THAT IS ALL

Pasted picture of bluescreen

[Doppler00]

So if the Q1 is so unreliable, how come he had to photoshop a bluescreen from Windows 98 onto the screen? Hmm...

Newton == Batmobile

[Portfolio]

I always thought of my MessagePad 2000 as the Batmobile of PDAs. I mean, just *look* at it! Swooshy curvy and matte black and faster than any other PDA when it was released. It would not look out of place on Batman's utility belt.

Re:Review is meaningless, victory was purely emoti

[dfghjk]

the Newton was a PDA but the UMPC is not. Referring to the devices as PDA's shows a builtin bias.