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Eureka! Archimedes Revealed
pin_gween writes "The Mercury News has an AP wire that shows science uncovering history. 800 years ago a monk scrubbed the text off a goatskin parchment to write prayers. Nothing unusual there, except the parchment contained writings from a copy of Archimedes' Palimpsest. Now scientists are using x-rays, generated by a particle accelerator, to cause tiny amounts of iron left by the original ink to glow without harming the delicate goatskin parchment. It takes 12 hours to scan one page, then the information is posted online."
So, in other words, you could say that Archimedes had the first post. :) Sorry, could not resist.
But I want it NOW!!
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Well, that, and the fact that some monk dude scrawled his love letters to god all over the bloody text!
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
NPR, because reading is dumb: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?story Id=5583668
Pain is God trying to be funny. That's how out of touch It is. -- Jeff Lint
4 Carrots
2 Pints of milk
Brithday card for aunt Mavis
I heard an interview with one of the scientists on the CBC. He said that there was possibly some new stuff that we didn't know about. In particular, there seems to be a section which tries to figure out how many different ways there are to solve a problem. So it seems that Archimedes was wondering about combinotorics.
Although this is a cool discovery, it would have been cooler if the lost writings were by a Greek intellectual whom we have less information about, say Heraclitus. Well, there is always the possibility that this technique could be used to recover other "lost" texts.
Philosophy.
Check out the article -
It was probably the only reason we got these writings in our hand.
If it was just the text of archimedes, then it would have been destroyed during the dark ages...
Since it was a prayer book, nobody dared, and now we have the data.
Every action has consequences, and some of them are inconcieveable
rajmohan_h@yahoo.com
I would say to put any Anti-Religious Zealotry aside, and think about it this way. How many files have you deleted from your hard-drive that perhaps in a couple hundred years would allow archeologist to get better insight on your generation, or the previous ones. Parchment was not as cheap as it was today. It took considerable amount of work just to create it, and Rubbing out the Old stuff for the New stuff seems like best situation, for the times. This period was well in the dark ages, saving old stuff wasn't the goal or even seemed that valuable. And besides as far as most were concerned at the time, this is old stuff from a dead civilization, make room for our new more modern method.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
...except the parchment contained writings from a copy of Archimedes' Palimpsest.
:-)
The object in question IS the palimpsest, not the text hidden on it. At least NPR got that much right
I rather doubt he did it because he had anything against science. But because back then materials were a bit scarcer than our modern 'go to the store' times of plenty.
This is a fairly obscure term, so most non-specialists don't know it. A "palimpsest" is a piece of parchment that has been re-used. This particular palimpsest contains stuff by Archimedes; and so it is called "the Archimedes Palimpsest." It is not "a copy of Archimedes' Palimpsest," it is THE Archimedes palimpsest.
I can't wait to see what the first, original layer of Archimedes' Palimpsest, the one Archimedes erased for blanks, contained. Maybe we'll have to backdate some of that "Archimedean" knowledge to someone else.
--
make install -not war
Finally I can use my LIS nerdiness on slashdot, bastion of computer, science, and math nerds.
The summary says "Nothing unusual there, except the parchment contained writings from a copy of Archimedes' Palimpsest," using the term palimpsest incorrectly. By calling it "a copy of Archimedes' Palimpsest," the summary implies that Archimedes wrote something--a Palimpsest--which was then copied and found on this random scrap of parchment.
In actuality, a palimpsest is a parchment already inscribed where the original ink was scraped off for reuse. Parchment, being the skin of a calf, sheep or goat, was in the Middle Ages very expensive (there is an argument that the Gutenberg revolution was fuelled more by cheap paper then by the printing press, but I digress). It was not discarded, but often reused by monks in Medieval scriptoria.
Many works from antiquity, once thought lost, are found serendipitously through palimpsest, many of them pagan works overwritten in favour of Christian ones. So, what we have found is a palimpsest of a manuscript copy of Archimedes, not a copy of Archimedes' palimpsest
"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days, bribery and corruption
are common, children no longer obey their parents and the end of the
world is evidently approaching." --Archimedes goatskin, 210 B.C.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Aren't they circumventing a technological protection system? And this particle accelerator is a "technological device that facilitates the circumvention of access control or copy controls". And then, in typical warez fashion, the pirated content is then disseminated on teh evil intarweb!
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you! That otherwise reputable scientists could be party to such a heinous act - oh the horror! The black helicopters must be dispatched after these miscreants forthwith!
And besides as far as most were concerned at the time, this is old stuff from a dead civilization, make room for our new more modern method.
More likely, he simply didn't understand what was written there. The monks might have been better educated than most of the other folks, yet not that many of them knew Greek. Things get forgotten pretty fast if noone understands them.
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
I had a bible on vellum made by some printing company called Gutenberg, but some asshole called Martin Luther scribbeld all these corrections over it, so I used it to light the fireplace.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
The Dark Ages period is generally agreed to be 500 C.E. to 1000 C.E.. This copy of the text of Archimedes was erased, cut up, and written over in the 1200s. The original (or a copy of it) had survived most of the dark ages, until the most recent copy was made.
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Dude, the "monk" wrote in Greek, in Constantinople. Whether it actually was a "monk", or just a scribe, or a priest, who scrubbed and copied that thing, is a different story. Anyway, 1229 Constantinople was a pretty rough place, and the Greek clergy wouldn't have been terribly rich; they've never been very interested in pagan Greek literature in the Eastern Church anyway. Now, in Paris, at the same time, there are plenty of priests, monks and friars who would be very eager to see what that text said (at least in translation). And there were active centers of Greek-Latin and Arabic-Latin translation of scientific texts at the time, especially in Spain.
Since it was a prayer book, nobody dared
Well, why do you think those ages were "dark" in the first place? It was because they destroyed scientific writings to record prayers. You are inverting cause and effect here.
Dark ages will cease to exist when people have more respect for scientific works than for prayer books.
chmod 711
If there's one thing that drives me nuts about science these days is that there seems to be such an effort to maintain a hard line between the academics and the "public"...
Admittedly, they could be buried deep in the website somewhere were I coudn't find them... or, maybe they are still working on official translations and don't want to put anything that's inaccurate on the site, but I doubt it- Instead, the passages the translated probably sound boring and so they'll publish it in obscure science journals- All the public will hear about (I fear) is "Look! We're so cool for recovering the pampliset!"
True, they are cool for translating this thing, I agree- But why not give the public a better pathway into understanding the meaning of this find by showing us the money? Would it really kill them? Maybe we, the public, can appreciate the inherent value of even some obscure, boring-sounding passages?
I have the same complaint about PBS and the recent special on "String Theory"- These science programs (which are admittedly better than nothing) work so hard to be accessible that they put a subconscious barrier between "average people" and "scientists" that I think becomes self defeating to the advancement of science- A PBS program on String Theory would be far more awesome if there was an attempt made to make the program a gateway into the science, giving a few basic formulas and some feeling for the real science. Sure, the formulas might seem a bit boring and basic and maybe some folks won't take the mental effort to try to follow along... but a small peek "under the hood" (even if you don't understand it) would still be far more interesting than a bunch of bland generalizations that just tells you they don't think people really care about the important details. </rant>
Yet again religion is all that protects the march of scientific progress from obliteration at the hands of destructive ignorance.
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
Mod parent down. I hadn't RTFA before writing that comment and it seems that I was mistaken.
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
That would be a valid argument for not deleting a hard drive that had belonged to Stephen Hawking. In my own hard drive, any file I delete to replace with another leaves a message to the future about which things are considered important today.
The problem with religious people is that they consider that anything is inferior when compared to religion. A text written by one of the most outstanding scientists of antiquity being deleted by an unknown medieval monk is an excellent argument against religion in general. Think if some student of physics deleted the original manuscript of one of the books in the Bible to write a simple exercise in mechanics.
This period was well in the dark ages, saving old stuff wasn't the goal or even seemed that valuable.
As I mentioned in another post, that's exactly the reason why those ages were "dark". They had the wrong idea on which information is valuable. By ignoring this world and concentrating instead on another future life, they created a period of one thousand years of some of the worst suffering humanity has ever seen.
I can just see my parents employing Reverse XRF Calcium imaging on all my 20 year old report cards to detect those F's that I cleverly transformed into B's. They're going to be soo mad I'll get a beating for sure.
Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately attributed to ignorance. -Napoleon
Meh. I knew I should've RTFA before posting a comment. Now that I have, I almost regret posting it.
Anyway, I still think the writings of Archimedes were erased from ignorance (ie they simply didn't care about Archimedes), not because someone found that it didn't conform with his world view.
Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
The news event behind this article does seem familiar, though. But I can't recall where else it appeared. Still, great stuff.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Aside from an incorrect spelling, what was wrong with his use of "inconceivable"? The dictionary defines it as "So unlikely or surprising as to have been thought impossible" and the thesaurus lists "unimaginable" and "unthinkable" as synonyms. We also have the antonyms "fathomable" and "likely", which means pretty much exactly the opposite of the grand-parents intended meaning.
So, do you have anything to say for yourself, or do you just enjoy being mean on /.?
Memorable Quotes from The Princess Bride
One thing to keep in mind is that just because this palimpset is the only copy that we know about today, doesn't mean that there weren't other copies extant at the time it was reused; and at the time it was probably not such a unique text. Remember that Constantinople (now Istanbul) had just been sacked in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade, and things were still quite chaotic. At that time (1229) the city would still have been controlled by the Crusaders (it was not retaken by the Byzantines until 1261). In addition the city was sacked again in 1453 when it was conquered by the Turks, after which the Church and Byzantine civilization in general underwent systematic persecution and suppression. All of these disruptions have caused the loss of huge numbers of texts.
The Archimedes manuscript is not the only manuscript reused to make the prayer book - there are several other texts that were also used, including some others which are now also our only remaining copies. These include both pagan writers and other Christian texts. Again, we have little reason to think that any of these would have been considered particularly unique at the time.
Events have not been kind to ancient manuscripts generally; what we have left today is only a relatively small sampling of what was originally a vast ancient literature. The Church has often been blamed, and in the case of pagan religious texts there may be some justice in the charge; but what have doubtless been much bigger culprits for the bulk of the destruction have been marauding armies, fires, floods, and simply the ravages of time as old manuscripts decay without having been copied.
As someone else has pointed out, they used hide not paper, but also the reason why they kept writing over old texts like this was because it was extremely expensive (one dead animal didn't exactly give that many pages...) and so everything was reused over and over again. Considering the cost I think anyone daring to use it for any other purpose than intended would find themselves in severe trouble very quickly.
I listened to an NPR story on this, a few days ago. I must say that the whole idea behind the science of revealing palimpsests is really neat and interesting. It is a shame that wonderful thoughts have been covered over (including paintings and music manuscripts), but it has happened, and the most important thing now (in MHO) is to rediscover the treasures lost.
Some great paintings, writings, and music manuscripts were covered by their own artists/writers, not just by others. One should, in my opinion, remember to knock the artist/writer on the head with a stick - before they destroy their own work. As for those who re-used materials for their own use... well, I don't really know how I feel about that...
In short, the latest imaging techniques are astounding. I am looking forward to more discoveries of palimpsests in the future!
A Passionate Independent Musician
What you say is true, for the Catholic church, and (unfortunately) may churches today. However, there are many of us Christans who follow in the footsteps of those who were also burned at the stake, tortured and killed by this "Christianity" you speak of. Just remember, just because someone calls them self a Christian, does not mean they follow the commands and wishes of Jesus Christ.
Man is the lowest-cost, 150-pound, nonlinear, all-purpose computer system which can be mass-produced by unskilled labor.
(Yes, I hate religion)
But apparently you love Deadwood.
Archimedes revealed? He had already done his best science work naked.
Yes - read the Scholarship section on the project web page. For example, http://www.archimedespalimpsest.org/scholarship_ne tz2.html which shows that Archimedes knew about Infinity and used it in a proof. The Greeks were fascinated by large numbers - questions like "can you count the number of grains of sand on all the beaches of the world?" - but it was thought they did not have the concept of actual infinity. The palimpsest shows that this was known some 2000 years ago, then forgotten for centuries.
For those who don't want to listen, Nova had an hour-long documentary on the Archimedes' Palimpsest [PBS Nova site].
It was shown earlier this year about 4 months ago.
Cheers,
Tai
You keep using that word...
Favorite quote: "
that P=NP.
Look at this url, from their "the Archimedes Palimpsest" Page (off of the home page of TFA): http://www.archimedespalimpsest.org/images/imaging _g5.gif
Now, oh fellow slashdotters, have a look at this lovely cube, and notice that it's top surface *is a map*. Okay, we here know that scanning from satellites can use techniques such that 'hiding under a tree' is preschool to the powers that be, but have you ever seen an image prove it so extremely viscerally? More lay people could use to see this image!
CS majors know the time/space tradeoff, but they never get taught the 3rd, crucial, tradeoff of the set: comprehension!
...What did Archimedes Plutonium have to say about all this?
DNRTFA
Before enlightenment - Code C, read Usenet, play NetHack. After enlightenment - Code C, read Usenet, play NetHack.
The fact is that the barbarians are always at the gates. Civilization has never been more than one generation away from a potential new Dark Age, and often less when faced with angry and ignorant - but well-armed - mobs.
Actually paper was not always as plentiful as it is now. In fact, as recently as the 1800's, paper was a valuable commodity. (reference: history of paper) It's unfortunate, but likely, that countless important works have been erased and resued. Heck, even most of Leonardo DiVinici paintings were created on reused canvases.
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.
Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
It was probably the only reason we got these writings in our hand.
That doesn't make it a good thing to scrub off important science and overwrite it with religious texts nor does it redeem what happened --- it only makes it accidentally good in this particular case.
Ahh, crap, I'm an idiot. I just thought it was some strange /. meme. I apologise, I'm terribly sorry.
parchment is expensive, and the economy of Constantinople 1229 was pretty bad. Most of the Greek aristocracy had relocated, the Latin Emperor had never been strong, but now was so ineffective, they were having trouble appointing people to do it, and in a few years the "Empire" would be reduced to the town of Constantinople itself. Add to that the Greek Patriarchs and a good deal of the bishops (but not all) had left Latin-dominated areas and were with the "Empire in Exiile", and you've got a seriously impoverished Greek clergy.
But why should Archimedes give everyone execute rights to his writing?
and to be honest I was a bit underwhelmed. I missed the first few minutes, so maybe there was something more interesting going on there. I was hoping at the end when they revealed the page they'd been working on, they might actually translate some of what was on the page, for those of us who don't speak ancient greek.
This is from an assyrian stone tablet, circa 2800 bc... Puts things in perspective, doncha think ?
Non-Linux Penguins ?
Yes, but will they find his lost writings about quantum gravitation?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Yes, indeed, just like his long lost proof of the Riemann Hypothesis...
In other words, never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Your sig(k) has been stolen. There is a puff of smoke!
Some other cool info on this story was covered on a episode of PBSs NOVA.
"Interesting how the church is given credit for maintaining education and preserving knowledge through the middle ages. And in spite of the Christians burning the Royal Library of Alexandria."
Not all christians can be lumped together, not only that, before modern times the only histories of the world WAS religion, you can't blame humans for the times and ages and lack of knowledge of the age in which they were born.
Next people have motivations beyond their christianity, because one labels one 'christian' simply doesn't mean they are. Religion was often times used by people who didn't believe in it to accomplish their aims (controlling the population). I destruction of knowledge is a tool of nefariou rich people to keep their sheep in line, and crazy people.
It certainly is not commanded anywhere in the christian bible to destroy libraries, in fact such things are sinning, since a christian is not supposed to break the laws of the land as commanded by christ in the new testament. Any true christian would be following those commandments.
Just thing of it -- you can't delete a doc from parchment either without some CSI guy scanning it back in.
Considering how bad the Dark Ages were, and what people in Greece had before then, he probably had a point.
And the end of Greece to boot.
Table-ized A.I.
"Yup, them crazy, dumb kids don't know up from down, spend way too much time playing games, dancing around, getting drunk, having loose sex, and are bringing down everything we worked so hard for to wrack and ruin...."
...though it would take about 500 more years for the empire to actually fall!
[wry grin]
I don't remember which philosopher it was (Seneca?) but he pretty much expressed the above sentiments about what he lamented as the unthinking, reckless youth of his time, complaining at length that they were obssessed with pleasure-seeking at the cost of thinking and contributing to the greater good. He concluded that all was lost, and that civilization would decline and collapse.
The civilization he was referring to was none other than the Roman Empire. Admittedly, his prediction proved to be correct
Personally, I'd argue that he was right, but for the wrong reason -- it's all too common for older generations to look down upon and condemn the young, usually for no other crime than the fact that the newer generations are different and do things their own way. Then there's Arthur C. Clarke's take on the old-versus-young rivalry: "...the old are often insanely jealous of the young." (The Sentinel)
I suspect that more than a few of us here have similar feelings on the issue, which probably explains the use of phrases such as "the Bad Old Days" and "the Dark Ages".
"All hands, BRACE FOR IMPACT!"
Argh damnit! Why does this lie keep getting perpetuated?
Seriously, try to find any source for that. Archimedes didn't even write like that (even translated). That 'quote' is only about 50 years old - not a few thousand. It's a urban legend that has been shown to be wrong over and over.
No, it would be like throwing away your copy of Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" because your copy is dog-eared and you can always order another from Amazon. Likely at the time there were mutliple copies of Archimedes' work around, and this one was considered unimportant for that reason (the parchment was literally more valuable than the information it contained).
What makes it important to us is that it happens to be the only copy which survived. The monk at the time had no way of knowing that his copy would be the only one which survived. Same reason there are only about a dozen Honus Wagner baseball cards in good condition. Nobody at the time knew that baseball cards would become a multi-million dollar collectibles industry, and that this particular card would be so valuable.
But might be useful using some form of automatic system to at least provide an "early draft" of what has been written. That would at least be useful in keeping the public informed on the goals of the project, and let's set so double the killer delete select all.
I do not think it is spelled the way you think it is spelled.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
Umm, there's several theories on how the Library was destroyed. Julius Ceasar being the earliest, a Christian Emperor in the middle, and the Muslim Conquest being the latest. In other words, we don't know how it burned, or even when - so let's not blame whoever we happen not to like at the moment, k?
Remember that Constantinople (now Istanbul)
Let me get this straight, Istanbul was Constantinople? So, now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople?
I guess its been a long time gone, when they used Constantinople. Hmm... Why did Constantinople get the works? I know i shouldn't ask since it's probably nobody's business but the Turks.
Have you read my journal today?
Have our scientists proven that only now?
Boy they better start finding solutions to world problems than proving archimeded revealed himself. Else they wouldn't get Bush funding...
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
Who cares about this Arechemedes guy? What about the prayers the monk was trying to write? Doesn't he get some kinda credit here for being resourceful? I think these scientists are missing what's really important here...........as usual.
Peace is not the absence of trouble but the presence of God.
but what have doubtless been much bigger culprits for the bulk of the destruction have been marauding armies, fires, floods, and simply the ravages of time as old manuscripts decay without having been copied.
And at least two of the reasons you state are more than likely to have been instigated by the church...
Bob
Listen to my latest album here
However, I also was not able to find any reference to this on snopes.com or any page describing how this is an urban legend.
Does anyone have any hard references either way?
Regardless of the veracity of this quote, I did find a page describing similar quotes about Socrates. So, even if the original quote isn't a true quote, there are certainly similar examples that show the same silly "kids these days blah blah blah" mindset.
Cow Cube
So would it have been somehow less disgraceful if someone erased a sacred religous text to scribble down an arithmetic problem?
I thought you guys were talking about a Sci-Fi show :-(
*Shakes Fist*
Wait, What?
We now share our pain! :)
Have you read my journal today?
No. Beyond Allegro not much worthwhile has found it's way into the public so see if YOU (ignorant loudmouth) can get me
the images of the orginal dead sea scrolls then. Other than that all you could do was mod me -1 troll, Wow.
impressive.
I have the impression you were going to look in the Barnes & Nobles esoteric new age section.
Then that is a problem with those particular people, and not "Christianity" as a whole. I'm not a religious person myself, but I've known many such people and none of them ever forced any belief on anyone. Your anecdote means nothing, and neither does mine. It just shows that you painting "Christianity" with that broad brush is just the same as "Christians" painting all of those who aren't "Christian" with the same brush.
FC Closer
How do we know that this copy was actually correct? Would it not be possible that one of the reasons why it was scrapped clean is that it was poorly copied/translated or simply one of many copies floating about at the time and there were other uses for the space?
I just can't be bothered.
if you want to hide what you wrote, you'll have to burn it to hide the evidence.
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
The Irainian PM said something similar about the holocaust.
Next thing you know you'll start denying the Inquisition as well.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Bite me, You loving church burned people alive; why shouldn't I believe they burned libraries that contained pagan teachings? Especially when they recorded doing it.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Don't get grumpy, just make a little birdhouse in your soul.
Learn to love Alaska
In summary: The Christians burned, murdered and destroyed nearly everything. Now they claimed to be the preservers of culture and knowledge. Preservers in so much as they killed and burned everything they couldn't controll.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Also you are NOT and opressed minority!
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.