Slashdot Mirror
How Old is Too Old?
NewtonEatPalm! asks: "I started college back when I was too young to carefully weigh options about my future. I entered a prominent art school at age 17, coasted through, and was spit out at age 22 with a film degree that I don't really want nor do I feel qualified to use as the basis for a career. Three years on, I'm still working at my mundane college job, though one thing has never changed in all this time- my love of and devotion to technology, keeping up with hardware news and the intricacies of powerful software through daily reading of sites like Slashdot and lots of home-brew system building and amateur web development. I've decided that I'd like to pursue a second degree in Software Engineering at one of the major Cal State U's, but that would place me in the tech job market at nearly 30. My question is, how old is too old? Are severe changes in career direction in this sector commonplace/successful? Or have I truly already let my best chance for entry pass me by?"
If your radical ideas happened to be annealed in post-hoc math, you may just carve out a niche for yourself; feral engineers are too goddamn down-to-earth for my taste, anyway.
Carpe Momento
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Everybody's life and goals are unique. You shouldn't try to judge your progress based on what you think others are doing and have accomplished. Sometimes that can be useful. But you should just ask yourself one question. What do YOU want to do with your life and what do you think you need to do to accomplish that.
Some people "start" their life at 15 and burn out when they are 30, some start at 30 and continue on until they die. Everyone is different.
"It's true that the neurons harden as your mind differentiates itself (much like a fetus' maturing organs); "
And yet some of the best work has been produced by men and women well past 30.
Ok now that I got that out of the way...
I finished my EE degree and entered the engineering workforce at 28. If anything I found my age may have helped me. Most of the people you end up working with won't know when you finished your degree, so they end up looking at you as someone who is probably more experienced. Throw in the fact that in a technology job you have to stay current and not everyone does. Coming fresh from university you'll most likely be current.
Age doesn't matter it's your skills and drive, boy. (And stop asking questions that make me feel old)
I just turned 33 today. Way to remind me that I am old. :P
You're never too old to retool or change. Every day, someone your age (and someone 2-3x your age) leaves a successful career for a completely different field.
You only get One Life - and one chance to be whatever age you are. There's no dress rehearsal. Figure out how to "do" your passion for enough money to maintain a lifestyle sufficiency, and then go do it.
Remember, this is a one-life game. Use it up.
I didnt graduate college till 30, started
my second ( third? ) career as a programmer then.
Had to work my way thru college. Tisnt easy, but
doable.
You are here, it is now. Start.
emt 377 emt 4
Three years on, I'm still working at my mundane college job, though one thing has never changed in all this time- my love of and devotion to technology, keeping up with hardware news and the intricacies of powerful software through daily reading of sites like Slashdot and lots of home-brew system building and amateur web development.
I'm a little suspicious of this. If you have a "love and devotion" to technology, then what's stopped you so far from learning programming? You say you've done some amateur web development, so that's a gateway that normally might've led you to it.
I'm assuming you haven't learned any programming to speak of. If that's the case, then I suspect you have some romantic notion of what programming is all about that probably won't live up to your expectations. Coding is not all hot tubs full of babes. :) I'd say that people with a passion for programming already know that's what they want to do and don't need to "ask Slashdot", especially when you're looking at a career change for a job you think is boring.
I could be wrong, of course, but I think you need to consider that the career grass isn't greener on the other side.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
I changed jobs and started programming for money at 37. I may change again later on if it suits me. Do what YOU want to do, and screw the norm.
Dead.
You should however be certain of where you are going. Building PCs and doing light web development are not what most software engineers do in their day jobs. Teach yourself Java or Python or something and try your hand at some more substantial software development. And that is good practice - in most software engineering classes, the focus of the class is more about basic concepts and you are expected to teach yourself whatever you need of the language du jour to implement projects.
Some see the vessel as half full; others see it as half-empty; We pour it out on the floor and laugh
You're too old to do it when you personally cannot do it.
A friend of mine is in his early 50's, and he recently landed his first "real" (paid) linux system administration job. Prior to this he had worked in construction his entire life. If he can do it at fifty-plus, you can do it at thirty. If you can't, there's a reason for it other than age.
People generally have more power than they think they do, and are limited not by what they can do, but by what they allow themselves to accomplish. So, be bold! Thrust your trepidations aside and throw yourself in the direction you want to go. You may surprise yourself.
-- TTK
I decided to I worked as a private contractor and took sub-contract jobs for minor network installs (Doctors offices, dental offices, law and accounting offices). I did that for about 5 years. One of my clients, a smallish lab, offered me a full time job. Over the years, that smallish lab has grown to around 200 workstations, 5 servers, 3 remote offices, etc. I went from a department of one to being a manager of 8 (both IT and Data processing departments).
Advice: Find a small or medium sized privately owned company. Learn to do a lot... SQL, networking, admin, support, word, excel (show some pivot table magic), etc. Forget working for anyone or anything with stock-holders. You'll enjoy the work, probably like the owner/boss and add a few years to your life.
If you choose to make this type of career switch you better make sure you really love this field. The starting pay probably won't be good. The work hours will be demanding and the respect from business management will never shine down on you. More than likely you will not be able to pursue a project that you are passionate about only one that management wants done. Just make sure you really love this field before you make the change. Enjoying technology as a hobby is one thing doing it for a career is whole different story.
"Anything tastes good if you deep fry it."
I'm 50, and I think I'm as creative and sharp as ever in coding. Since being laid off after twenty one years, I have written two major applications on my own, and hope to market them successfully.
But, as for companies, they're interested in how much you cost, not how old you are. Unfortunately for those over forty who have accrued knowledge, experience, and expertise, that usually comes at a premium. A premium on paper many companies are willing to forego for the "cheap" labor.
A more correct question would be: how little are you willing to work for, and how many benefits are you willing to waive compared to the competition? Competence? Expertise? Pshaw. That's not the most important part of the equation for most companies. It should be.
Look at it this way: how old will you be in 4 years if you don't do this? What will you be doing then? (nb. the answer better not be "posting another 'Ask Slashdot'... ;-) )
Too many people use the excuse that they will be 'x' years old when they get out of the schooling they need to pursue the job they really want instead of the fry-slinging they are presently doing. Do yourself a favour: get the buy-in of the significant people in your life, take a deep breath, and pay the first year tuition all at once. Then instead of having an excuse not to go to school, you will have an excuse not to skip/stop.
CPD.
but that would place me in the tech job market at nearly 30
Wow. Your story (other than the art school) just about parallels mine. High school, then post-secondary, then a crappy job for a bunch of years. Been there, did that, got the t-shirt.
A few years back I realized people would actually pay me money to do what I enjoy doing in my spare time (that is, mess with computers), but the big cash was in the degree'd jobs. Like it or not, that's the way in these days. So, I left the job, swallowed my pride and moved back in with the family, lived like a starving student otherwise for 4 years, and graduated with a B.C.Sc. when I was 29.
I got a job right out of school (actually, while I was still in school - internships RULE), and one day I got bored and did the math: it will have taken me only 3 years since graduation before I break even financially. That's including all the income lost over those 4 years, and tuition. I more than doubled my take-home as a result of the career change, and love every minute of the job so far.
Oh, the other nice thing: going to university/college as a mature student is FUN. People are very friendly to you (even though we're only talking 5-8 year age differences they think of you as the "old fogey"). You don't do the stupid things (frat parties every night during finals). It's also FAR easier to study, do homework, whatever - because you know damn well what awaits you if you don't get this degree finished, and with good marks. Personally, I found doing university the second time around to be just about the most fun I've ever had in my life. Only problem is, at an older age it seems to go by FAST.
If I won the lottery and didn't need to work for my rent, I'd do it a third time.
Best decision I ever made in my life.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
If 40 is the new 30, then 30 is the new 20.
Seriously, 30 is not too old. Given the current economic trends (global capitalism) we're all going to need to reinvent ourselves every 10 years or so anyway - yes, that probably means going back to school in your 40's and again in your 50's... maybe even later.
I was a math major in college, because I wasn't sure if I wanted to be a programmer, a physicist, or a vulcanologist. In the end, I became an airline pilot. It was, at the beginning, thrilling, exciting, interesting, different, and I used to look forward to going to work.
Fast forward about 15 years, and I'll tell you that the things I thought little of, like career stability, retirement funding, long term mental stimulation, etc., are a lot more important to me now then they were in my teens.
I just earned more this past month, in doing network consulting and database development than from my "career". It was exciting all over again, that I had a mental challenge, people appreciated my work, and I had some independence from the Mother Company.
I'm 35, and slowly building up what used to be a hobby fiddling with computers into a side business. And if (or, as I suspect, when) the airline industry really tanks, I can just pick up the pace a bit on my second career. Perhaps I wouldn't enjoy it so much if I didn't have career A to start with, and perhaps I would have advanced far more in career B if I had started there, but who cares? I DID do career A, and I am now really ENJOYING career B.
I have an aunt who just retired from senior management one of the largest corporations in the world after 38 years. She scratched through college with a 2.01 GPA. The secret to her success? Don't let yourself get faked out by people who seem to know what they are doing. Ask questions until you understand, or research on your own until you understand, and you will be surprised how many people get by on 90% air and 10% knowledge. If you want to understand and learn, you will get far.
Go for it - good luck!
45 and back in school because I enjoy learning, will I succeed in my new carreer, if not, well then my old one is still there. You know when you're too old, 24 hours past dead, 48 if your willful.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
And I couldn't be happier, even after 4 years med school, 5 years residency and 2 years fellowship. I certainly don't regret the time I spent working in research(Human genome proj) for several years before I got into med school. Usually the people who start something when they're older have made a more rational, wise choice then the people who went straight thru the mill.
If you want to stop your life and start a new phase of it, then probably you really want to do it and therefore you should.
Just don't do anything half assed -if you're going to do it, then go all the way - be dedicated. What you get out of life is what you put into it.
..........FULL STOP.
In ten years, you'll be 40. When you look back, what you did for a living may not be as big a deal as you think. Your relationship(s) may be a bigger solace.
If your parents are still living, see them at least once a year for the next 10 years.
After 28, you can't rely on your metabolism to keep you in shape. If you don't already have one, pick a physical activity you won't get bored with, preferably something not too dangerous.
Do you play any instruments? If you start practicing now, you should be able to play by the time you're 40, and even better by the time you're 50.
Sometimes the best job is one that lots of people aren't after. Yes there are lots of jobs for coders, but there is lots of supply too.
If you don't keep a journal, start. Some things in life are cyclic, and you won't notice them unless you can review what happened in past years.
"I just turned 33 today. Way to remind me that I am old. :P"
Jesus died when he was 33... I'm just saying.
I'm just about to take early retirement (55).
Sometime in the next two weeks I'll be enrolling in a DipEd (one year full time) so that I can start teaching at high school level after a lot of time working (mostly as) a chemist.
If I can do it so can you.
Dunno about you young people.
When I was your age we had to walk 10 miles to go to school - uphill - after the early shift at the salt mines, then walk 15 miles - uphill again - to go home to eat last week's leftovers before 2 minutes' sleep before getting up before midnight for the paper round before the salt mine - and not all of us had the luxury of a home, I shared a hole in the road covered with a groundsheet with 18 others... but why am I wasting electrons, you youngsters just won't believe a word of it...
Just do it.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
I'm a 31-year-old student and finishing up in 12-18 months at the rate I'm going.
I'll mirror what most other folks here have said, namely that you're not too old for college or to enter one of many CS-type careers and that you should go for it. I will make one small detour from the norm, however, and suggest you might want to make a small adjustment to your major--and not for the reasons you may suspect.
The only CSUs that appear to have actual SoftE programs are San Jose State and CSU Fullerton. Since the Fullerton program is a Master's-only program, I'll assume that you're probably looking at SJSU.
And I just happen to be an SJSU student.
While the SJSU SoftE program is terrific, there are a LOT of very specific courses in the program. It is simply not well laid-out for folks looking to transfer in from other schools (or for those looking for a second bachelor's) IMHO. When I transferred over, I initially applied for SoftE, but changed my mind once I worked it out on a spreadsheet. It turned out that, even though I had previously earned an Associate's in Engineering (and therefore had taken a bunch of engineering classes), SoftE was 9 credit hours (or about 1.5 part-time semesters) more than plain old CS. The problem is that SoftE in particular is a fairly inflexible program with a lot of boxes to check off.
Then again, SJSU has one of the best CompE programs anywhere, and many of the SoftE classes correspond directly with CS classes, especially at the start (so you can change your mind later if you want).
The moral of the story (regardless of where you go) is that you should scour your requirements and see what will suit you best. For someone who's coming in as a freshman, it probably doesn't matter too much, but it's huge for a returning/transferring/second bachelor's student.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." --Groucho Marx
A lord asked Takuan, a Zen Teacher, to suggest how he might pass the time. He felt his days very long attending his office & sitting stiffly to receive the homage of others.
Takuan wrote eight Chinese characters & gave them to the man:
Not twice this day
Inch time foot gem.
(This day will not come again; each minute is worth a priceless gem)
My mother decided she wanted to be a doctor in her mid 30's and got into NYU when she was maybe 38? She did fine, and became a great doctor. Before that she worked as a lab tech for a few years. Before that she was a waitress. A lot of my friends in college were "returning students" in their 30's getting CS degrees and went on to do good stuff. I've never personally witnessed anybody being "too old" to pull it off.
I went to college at 38 while making a major career change into IT. And this was mostly to get credits for what I had already taught myself. Now as a silver back I am a very well paid SW architect.
The short answer is that you will be as successful in a career change to the extent of your motivation, natural talent, and some amount of luck. Choose an evolving area of interest and stay current, aggressively so. I got to where I am by being a generalist - knowing and doing a little something with everything in computers from building boards with wirewrap, designing and wiring networks,to hacking in a couple dozen langauges from 8080/Z80 ASM to mainframe COBOL. Some of my peers are specialists and are just as successful. That is the luck part.
So pick something you really like and attack it like a tasmanian devil.
Too lazy to create a sig...
I left school at 16 with a fistfull of exams at not particularly stunning grades and started working in a bank. At 18 I got my first computer (atari 400 :-) ) and learned to program and everything about what made it tick. By 25 it was clear I didn't get on with banking so I asked if I could move in to IT which I did although initially it was just logging tapes in and out. I'm now 42 and have used VMS, various Unix (including scripting, sed/awk etc), raw x-windows coding, Windows/DOS, C, VB/VBA, C#, asp, html and a whole bunch of odd stuff. I've done analysis, design, build, test, debugging, documentation, warranty, support, training, writing for various magazines, beta testing for games companies, building/fixing hardware and God knows what else.
IT is a constant learning process so age has its uses although I do feel my ability to work long hours has diminished, both physically and as a result of marriage/kids. Age does have a bearing on some aspects, if a company wants someone who can cut code fast and late at night, they want youngsters. When they want something a bit bigger/more complex that requires experience, they go for the older types.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
I always remember a careers evening I went to with my father 16 years ago. The careers adviser stood at the front of a large hall and asked all the parents "How many of you are still doing the same job that you did when you left school?". Out of 200 parents only a small handful of them raised their hands.
I left school at 16, took an engineering apprenticeship and slaved away at that for another 8 years. When redundancy called at the age of 25 I decided a change was needed. Many people told me that my 4-year apprenticeship would be wasted if I left the industry; I ignored them.
I too have always been interested in computer and suchlike. I had some HTML knowledge under my belt. I also had some knowledge of the core MS Office applications. An office life for me this time!
Once in a low-skilled role I learnt some Javascript to complement my HTML. I spoke to people and they said "learn how to store and retrieve data from databases and you're laughing" so I did. My manager learned of my new skills and asked me to build a few simple business applications. "What about VBA?" he said. "No" I said. He then sent me on some courses to learn that.
These days I write small browser based applications that help the business no end, crappy Excel spreadsheets, crappy Access databases - someone's got to do it. If I had the motivation to learn more then I could progress more.
I am 32 and I have another 38 years left of my working life.
This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
Some time ago I took an evening extension with graduate credit at a Big 10 in Norwegian painting from 1750 through Munch. (And who wouldn't?) One evening the professor came in and with some exasperation in his voice said, "I've got to tell you a story. I haven't been distinguishing between the evening class and the day class. I just put all your papers in a pile and grade them together. Today, a self-appointed committee of my graduate students came into my office and complained that I wasn't being fair. The evening students were raising the curve and hurting their record. They said the evening students were just there because they were interested in the subject and we are here to train for a career! And I said, 'Yes, I can see that there is a problem. And if any of you come into my office and bring this up again, you will be in trouble with me.'"
The moral? Don't knock maturity. Don't knock motivation. You can probably build a better relationship with your professors and forge better contacts for internships and jobs.
But at the end of the day, if it's something you love doing, DO IT! Don't poke around with 10 more years of college. If college has drilled anything into your brain, it should be, "Never stop learning!" After all, college is just a resource that provides the materials and contacts you need. To actually get anything useful out of it, you should be pulling the information yourself! And with such a wealth of awesome written information on Computer Science, how could you not be learning if it's what you're interested in?
I have to disagree with that. Getting a degree always helps. A degree will help you get into the final select group of 10 or so people that eventually get past the 'evil director of human resources' and are invited to an interview. If you are only self educated and experienced you stand less of a chance of getting into that group each time you apply than if you have a B.Sc. degree and experience, if you have an M.Sc. degree and experience your chances of getting an interview increase even more. Degrees are frowned upon by a lot of people, I have even been told they are pretty worthless, but degrees and other academic credentials one of the key methods used by many human resources people to sort out the interview candidates form the ones whose application gets dumped in the paper shredder. To many PHB's a degree still represents a certain baseline guarantee that you are able to perform the function you claim to be qualified for. After you are hired you can still turn out to be a bad bet because you are lazy and stupid but a degree will still make that less likely since you don't make it through 4-6 years of University if you are lazy and stupid. The same pretty much goes for certificates. A PHB will, for example, prefer a person with an MCSE degree for a Windows sysadmin job over somebody who has no qualification other than his experience and a person with a computer related degree and an MCSE over the guy who just has the certificate. As for being to old I don't really think that is the case. I graduated as an engineer at 26 years old and 30 is no death-warrant as far as I am concerned. My advice to the guy who asked the original question is to go ahead and get his second degree. If he is enterprising and ambitious the fact that he is a little older than the other Junior programmers will not matter all that much if he proves he is able and industrious. Just expect to have to put up with some pretty shitty jobs for the first few years. I do agree with you on one thing: "...Never stop learning!...". To to stay on top of developments in the industry you have to stay current by sacrificing some of your spare time to muck around with Linux or Windows programming, for example, to gain experience with stuff you don't get to gather experience with at work.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
almost 30 /gasp!/ do you have your AARP card yet?
dude, I didn't get my PhD till I was 33. I left the academic game behind at 37 and started my career as a software engineer. No I don't have a degree in 'software engineering' (not there's anything wrong with that), but I did have lots of programming experience, in lots of different environments.
Do what you really like, do it well, be honest about your strengths and weaknesses. You've got at least 30 good years of employment ahead, make it work for you.
I got my first programming job when I was about 21, with a small company that didn't really want me to finish community college. 11 years later, I thought that maybe I was tired of programming, so I finally got my degree in mechanical engineering... just in time for a big slump in the engineering field.
However, since I had the magic piece of paper, I was able to get a temporary programming job at a manufacturing company that wanted someone familiar with 3-D geometry, and I still remembered enough of my calculus to satisfy them. So I was back in programming.
Looking back on it, my age and small-company experience helped - I had more work experience than Danny Newbie just out of college, and was willing to be paid the same (it was nearly half again what I had been making!). And after that, I was back to being a programmer - just a better-paid and better-treated one.
Since then, I've come to the conclusion that I probably would've made a competent engineer - but I'm a happier programmer.
To quote Arthur C. Clarke, "There may be a moral here. For the life of me I can't figure out what it is."
Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
That's not elitist. It's good, practical advice, and an important point to consider. Just because a person likes computers and has some aptitude for programming does not mean that they will enjoy a career in IT.
When I decided to stay in school and get a second degree in computer science 11 years ago, I already had a lot more programming experience, from the sound of it, than this person does. I enjoyed programming as a hobby, and I enjoyed my coursework and excelled in it. But truth be told, I have never really enjoyed working in IT, and there are plenty of times when I hate it.
I think that at the very least, it would be a good idea for this person to learn some serious programming on his own, before he decides to invest time and money into getting a degree. That still won't be any guarantee of future success and/or happiness, but it's a start.
you need to give up and make way for the fresh young folks. Face it, you are undereducated, incompetent, incapable of making a decent decision. Why would anyone want to hire you!?. You should give blood and perhaps sell your organs on Ebay. You are a few short years away from being some young, capable citizen's Soylent Green.
Come on! you need to change your belief about what it means to be old (and useful)
"Old" is not measured in *years on the planet*
Old is measured in your personal belief of your capability to contribute.
- Some companies, generally big ones, will rule you out. Cynicism aside ("all companies are evil"), they, or rather the HR departments, use age as a shorthand for value, even though it's illegal. At 30 you'll be in the sweet spot for many of them, but without the necessary experience. Conclusion: most large companies will probably not be right for you (though exceptions exist, but they are few).
- When I hire, I look for people with drive and the ability to control their lives. E.g. completing a degree is not crucial (some of the best never did) but shows that you can complete a long task. If you go back to school, especially after a hiatus, it shows either that you don't know what you want to do when you grow up and are aimless, or that you know how to pick yourself up and take control over your life. I don't expect 20 year olds to have that kind of understanding; hence doing it at 24 is actually a positive sign to me.
- As another poster said: make sure you will be doing what you want and that you're not going back to school as a tool for decision avoidance (see previous point!). Try some somple programming out -- get a book, poke at your computer, take a short course at the local community college (need not go on your resume if you don't want). javascript, surprisingly, is a good introductory interactive tool since you can just press reload in your browser to see what happened.
Finally: from your post, you might find being a sysadmin fun. That's good because with a small amount of skill you can get a simple sysadmin job, even if it's just flipping backup tapes or babysitting servers at night. Once you're in the job you can go to school at night and you can also work your way up -- the "age thing" won't matter anyway. And the best sysadmins are programmers, but the vast majority are not, so again you can slide in and decide how much you want to have. Oh yeah: to contradict myself: these super-entry-level sysadmin jobs only exist at big companies, and are the kind they are least likely to worry about age at. Though again, they might worry about pointless certifications.Anyway: seize the moment and go for it. The longer you dither the longer you will answer the question by default.