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Censured for Censorship in China
Dwarg writes "On Aug. 10, [Human Rights Watch], headquartered in New York, came out with a report criticizing the three companies for their role helping to censor the Internet in China. The report is particularly damning of Yahoo, which Human Rights Watch says censors its Chinese site far more vigorously than either Google or Microsoft."
... I swear. I would do anything for Yahoo!.
What's better, censored information or no information? If you want to do business in China, or any other country, you do so at the whim of the government. It's not like you can have an uncensored site. You either have a censored site, or no site at all.
I'm sure the billions they rake in will more than soothe whatever conscience they have left.
I always hear about China censoring the internet, the press, etc.. What kind of information do they allow?
I feel that free speech should be an absolute, even when it's harmful. To use the old saw I think that the damage of yelling 'Fire' in a crowded theatre is far less than the damage of allowing any kind of restrictions on free speech.
That being said, why berate Google, who's voluntarily filtering their own information, and not berate Cisco, who's designed and built a great deal of the routing equipment used by the PDRC government to filter and monitor internet traffic... the so called 'Great Firewall of China'?
I certainly don't care for Google's actions, but I think that Cisco's are just as heinous, if not worse than Yahoo's dissident incrimination.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Is there any "pro-free-speech" search engine? And if so, why aren't they whoring out that apparent PR-benefit that it is to further the concept of free speech?
Same deal with the Cambodians under Pol Pot. I mean, if they didn't like having their skulls stacked in neat piles, they should have left! Same deal with the Burmese. Am I right here or what? If they don't feel like overthrowing their yoke of oppression, I don't see why we should go out of our way to help them.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
... any Chinese doesn't know about the censorship. Or the way to go round it, if they cared.
Sorry, but it's hard to take an article seriously if the editors come up with titles like this:
Search Engines Censured for Censorship.
Read it aloud and try not to giggle.
That would only work in a completely free world. In actuality, many Chinese cannot freely leave China even if they wanted to. Only the top percentile of society is truly mobile and can leave if they so choose. Everyone else would be hard pressed to be granted a visa, much less residency, to countries which human rights groups give positive feedback A+++++ would visit again.
Of course, nevermind the rights of the companies to censor what they want. Free speech, anyone?
You don't have freedom of choice for what country you want to live in. Where would the 1 billion people of China go if they all got fed up with the system?
I dunno man, I don't see how there could be any problem handling Chinese political refugees. I mean, how many Chinese people can there be?
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
Don't you people get it? You looney libbies don't know when to stop biting the hand that feeds you, do you?
The only reason China is able to provide us with cheap goods and cheap labor is because of their ARM policies - analog rights management.
Look at American labor. It has become too expensive for our economy to keep growing. Do you want the Chinese people to have more freedoms and then lose their jobs like you lazy Americans do?
[free trade parody off]
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
i guess the fundamental element in a business is that they want to make money. if the customers want some kind of ideology (whether you agree with it or not), then you'd better sell it to them. here in the US that means that they promote freedom (well, usually) of information but else where, those ideals are different.
you can't always decouple the symbiotic relationship between what's good for business and what's good for ideals. i think corporations might want to subscribe to Doing the Right Thing (DRT), but they'll only do it when they feel that they don't lose profits (taking into account that DRT might make them popular in some markets). for example, how is the US government going to tap phone wires w/o att's cooperation? how is att going to operate at all if the government doesn't give it the foundation it requires?
the problem that yahoo et al face is that because they are american based companies, they need to understand that american ideals relating to freedom of information are different than the ideals of the chinese government. the only way that western ideas about information will play a role in chinese (and other similar) markets, as far as profit margins are concerned, is if people who hold "western" ideals boycott these companies and thereby add some kind of "cost" to yahoo et al for them to want to censor information in china. hence reports like these.
the other solution would be for corporations to try to up hold some kind of motto like "do no evil" and try to convince themselves and others that somehow they are in the business for *more* than just profit. however, what do you do when these goals conflict? which criteria trumps the other? history has shown time and time again that for businesses when DRT is not profitable (and it rarely is)... profits (and usually the short term variety) dictate all decision making. DRT might be profitable in the short run if it wins you publicity, but given the short attention spans of people, DRT is probably never profitable in the long run.
and then, the nature of competition is that if you are willing to pay the monetary costs of DRT, your competitor might not be...
Why should we decide for another country that they should have 'free speech'?
For that matter, what makes you think the US has free speech?
"But, but I can say anything!!!"
Oh, really? Try reading classified information outloud.
"But, but that's classified!"
OK, how about reading aloud your homemade recipe for liquid explosives? Or reading the DeCSS code to a judge?
And how is that any different than what China is doing, really?
Their limits may be more restrictive than ours, but we *do* have restrictions.
We have "free'er Speech" but there could be countries even more lax than we!
What if some small European country put out a scathing report on how limiting
American speech is?
We should not assume the American system is best and that we should force our political
systems on others, that's how things like Iraq happen. These businesses are in other countries and we should not expect them to act differently than other companies on the region.
- "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"
THAT'S what I'm forgetting to include in my shipments! Oh well, I don't use the capslock key anyways. I won't miss it.
Seems like everything China censors is falun gong related... personally I think they (Chinese gvt) are doing the world a service - if you ever go to Sydney, Falun Gong protesters shower you in petitions, and "information". The information is factually incorrect (latest was Falun Gong organs being harvested in concentration camps). The pictorial evidence (torture photos) are staged and little information is actually provided about the religion itself. Did you know that it's a new age religion, their spiritual leader claims to posses supernatural powers and they believe that homosexuality is morally wrong.
Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and practised in China - there must be a reason as to why Falun Gong is bad.
In other words, "Anyone who beats you up for wearing a shirt isn't your friend."
I really, really **** it when my ****** news service is ******** with. I mean why can't I read ****** or write about **********? To top it all off I can only play *** for 3 hours max before some ******* comes to my ***** apartment and threatens to send me to **** camp. **** you Y**oo.
-Edits by Chinese Net Monitor #3145264.
the mods may say you posted flamebait, but to me it's a flame that warms my heart. rock on, brother! --chebucto
Disinformation is just as bad as censorship.
Yes although many people believe in "free speech", even in the West free speech is controlled through sedition laws etc.
I remember one particular case where yahoo was criticised for providing information about a customer which led to his arrest - this particular person had been planning to try and overthrow the Chinese government. Don't for one second think that if the US suspected a citizen to have similar intentions, they would do the exact same as the Chinese.
Even though the media is state owned in China, in the West, it may as well be state owned. After all, the media giants are large corporations at battle with each other and they of course bow to the government which controls ownership laws, tv licensing and regulation.
Human Rights Watch, Reporters Without Borders and any other related groups should do more to discourage journalists from spreading lies or pushing their own agenda or publishing information without first investigating it. Until then all I can say is no news is good news.
Excuses Are Like Assholes - Everybody's Got One
Who are we to say that China shouldn't chop up its ethnic minorities and use their corpses as mulch for agriculture? Who are we to say that Germany didn't have a right to slaughter all of those Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc?
Oh, is the "right to life" more universal than the right to not be imprisoned or executed for speaking your mind?
Freedom is fundamentally the right to be left alone if you are not abandoning your spouse and children and are living in peace with others' life, liberty and property. It's not any more complicated than that.
Man is not an island, but a healthy, free man is a peninsula.
Yahoo! especially went beyond censorship. And that's disturbing because Google, MSN, etc. didn't.
The "Yahoo! was just playing by someone else's rules" argument fails. Unlike Yahoo!, Google managed to build a Chinese version of its search engine without handing data to the Chinese government that led to arrests.
Don't diss corporations.
It's OK to do bad things as long as you promise to give most of your money to charity when you die, so that you go to heaven. The more money they obtain, the more they can give back and therefore the more good they are. Good-hearted corporationists (of which there are many) keep just a mere $5 or 10 million of their loot after their death, so that their kids who are less well of than them can feed their kids and get a roof over their heads. Very thoughtful of them.
The problem is poor people. If each poor person would give as much to charity as rich people usually do, this world would be a nicer place to live.
I'll probably be modded down for this...
This is evidence that making money in the mass-media doesn't depend on free and open expression. It's like, if you have enough variety of content, people will settle on what various media provides, like comedy, lite news, and so on, but without the insights and challenges of truly free or near-free content. Of course, multinational corporations have realized this, with expansion into China a definite momentum builder for Google, but I doubt an HRW report will hurt share prices, and most people in China can't read it online.
I spend most of my time in bed, darling.
Three American companies decide to operate in a foreign market. In order to comply with local laws they must change their business practises. Many Americans may not like the new business practises, but they are not breaking any US or international laws. Where is the problem?
Should these companies decide to go back to American-style business practises, they would be breaking Chinese law and the Chinese government would be within their rights to block their sites. Would everyone rather Google, MS and Yahoo just didn't operate in China at all? How would that benefit the Chinese people?
I guess if 1.3 billion Chinese really got fed up with the system, they would make a revolution and strip their leaders into pieces. That's how these things work, my friend.
But since they don't, we must draw the conclusion that the Chinese are in fact not fed up with the system. Even more shocking to an American is to hear that the Chinese actually support the current system and the current leaders, and that their view of America is not as golden as you would have hoped for.
Those who really are fed up with the system will end up in the US, where they start web sites propagating hate speech against the Chinese government. They will be like veritable political pandas in the West, used as a tool to smash the "communist" regime in the head on occasion, just like the fool Dalai Lama has been the cute boy and political bat in the past.
Was that they were (are?) kissing ass in China by actively exposing democracy and freedom advocates, as in doing the police's job for them, just to get a leg up with the government. That's a big no-no; abide by the rules, but playing along and becoming rights-crushing chums with the likes of the Chinese government (Fuck off chinese communism advocates, until you apologize to the Tibetans and make reparations, you are not a civilized country).
Ex nihilo nihil fit.
"But since they don't, we must draw the conclusion that the Chinese are in fact not fed up with the system."
I don't think we must draw that conclusion at all. I refer you to my post re: Cambodia above.
I am not saying that the Chinese are fed up with the system. I am saying that the fact that they have not rebelled (ahem, tiananmen square, cough) is not an indication one way or the other.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
Make that 2 CCRs here. As in, Conservative Christian Republican.
Sadly the GOP has left me far behind in their time warp back to 1939. I feel the same way as you do, my post was a parody of the very people you just disparaged. Trust me, the majority of elected "Republicans" and many of their voters now worship profits over God, and their cruel comments about the jobless, the poor, etc. reflect that.
Now I wouldn't mind outsourced labor to western nations (England, France, etc.) because they abide by similar human rights and labor rights rules. Asia? They're sweatshop hell, and they're helping corporations declare all out war on Western values.
I wish more people like you were out there voting.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
I would argue that when you control what the people know, you can control what they think. The Chinese people don't know what's going on in their country vs. what is going on in the rest of the world.
I would be willing to bet dollars to yuan that an educated Chinese population would endeavor to change their situation.
"I would be willing to bet dollars to yuan that an educated Chinese population would endeavor to change their situation."
Yes, they would, and they will. But not now.
For all the people dis-ing the three search companies I have these questions:
Where was you motherboard made?
Your computer case?
Your clothing?
Your furniture?
TV?
TiVo box?
HD?
WAP?
Yes, China is an oppressive government. They're occupying foreign countries just like the U.S.. You can be jailed without trial and tortured, just like the U.S. They spy on their own citizens, just like the U.S. Their politicians are corrupt, just like everyone else. Their businessmen are greedy bastards, just like everyone else. Their government lies, supresses information, engages in disinformation, forces censorship down everyone's throat. Just like the U.S. (Howard Stern, anyone?)
They get all their money from people in foreign countries buying tons of consumer crap manufactured by cheap exploited laborers. Just like the U.S.
I guess the Chinese people were never oppressed until Yahoo, Google, and MS came along. Prior to that is was a shining beacon of freedom.
I'm waiting for the U.S. to try to force *anything* on China. Try saying "no" to someone you owe money to...
Now that you published this list here, we can add:
9. Slashdot
I fail to understand why everyone against U.S. corporations obeying local laws in order to do business in China takes himself seriously. Get off your high horse and think about the situation before you cry wolf and drop yet another incredibly sarcastic comment about how profits relate to a business' sense of moral responsibility. Stop acting like several U.S. corporations refusing to operate in China based on human rights violations will cause serious change. Furthermore, learn a little bit about basic economics.
Think hard about this: You are a Chinese citizen, you understand that the government is surpressing freedom of speech, and you understand that U.S. corporations enabling you to access the internet (albiet censored) are cooperating with the government. As a consumer, do you want those corporations to continue operating inside the country, or do you want them to pull out of the country completely, depriving you of access to the internet outside of your country? Of course you want the corporations to continue operating, so that you will continue to have access to an extremely useful service. Maybe you've even read some Milton Friedman and understand that economic access to a country is the first step in serious political change. But maybe you, as a Chinese citizen haven't. Wow, you would be just like the people commenting on this story.
It is impossible to argue that Google and Yahoo should not obey local laws and stop operations in China, yet the U.S. should continue importing billions of dollars worth of Chinese goods. Some of you people may even hold the view that U.S. corporations should completely detach themselves from China. Either by their own action, or through U.S. legislation blockading China, you may think that no economic activity should occur with China until serious political change occurs. Congradulations, you lack a basic understanding of modern globalization and are pursueing an isolationist trade policy. Its a good thing you aren't the president, because you propose to seriously hurt both the U.S. and Chinese economies, making life harder for those citizens you are attempting to help. And just look how policies like that turned out in Cuba, good job critically thinking about China and comparing it to other nations.
I don't think there is any arguement that giving Chinese citizens limited access to the internet will promote change. I guess some of you think that the 'moral cost' is too high. You are wrong, and there is no way around it. The world does not come in black and white, and you need to deal with that fact. Change will come in China, and U.S. firms have a chance to both accelerate it and reap the economic rewards when it does. At what level of legal difference from the United States do you draw the line and halt economic activity? It does not really matter in the end, because regardless of how many times you post on your blog, comment in Slashdot, or feebly argue with anyone about it, you are wrong, and U.S. tech firms will continue to operate in China. Just sleep with the knowledge that you attempted to slow the arrival of free speech to China, something you seem to care so much about, but failed, because you don't understand the relationship between economic and political freedom.
I've got to remember that line more often.
I don't use Yahoo anymore - would love to use less Google as well.
I'm not sure for how long we intend to post news stories on this subject, but here are a few others:
- Yahoo China has the Worst Filtering Policy
- Yahoo, Google 'Irresponsible' In China
- Tangible Impact of Censorship on Search Engines
I think I'm starting to get the message anyway.
The last story had a kinda interesting link though:
CenSEARCHip -- shows differences in search engine results by country in an interesting visual manner.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Will you bite the hand that feeds?
Will you chew until it bleeds?
Can you get up off your knees?
Are you brave enough to see?
Do you want to change it?
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
Yahoo has not only censored information on its China-based web site but has also, actively, helped Beijing to arrest, imprison, and torture people who commit "thought crimes".
Yahoo's actions are understandable even if they cannot be condoned. Half of the team that established Yahoo is a Chinese from Taiwan. His name is Jerry Yang.
In Chinese society, people are mostly indifferent to human rights.
Yang simply steered his company along similar lines. He enthusiastically set up a joint venture with Alibaba, a Chinese company, long before Yahoo's competitors entered China.
The working atmosphere inside Yahoo reflects, to a certain extent, Chinese values. We Slashdotters may be concerned about human rights, but most employees within the walls of Yahoo just do not care. To them, Yahoo = 8 hours of daily work = paycheck. Whether a victim of Chinese brutality rots in a Beijing prison matters not a wit to the Yahoo employees.
Admit it! American goverment looks like they care people about other countries, but usually they just care about the oil.(How many civilians died in Iraq?) You guys talking about other lives in other countries so leisurely because you are NOT them. If you live in Africa, you will know how much you hate American talking like this.
Most damning is the fact that more than 1 million Taiwanese have voluntarily emigrated to mainland China.
It sure brought the Ceaucescus to a screeching halt. Best fucking object lesson in 20th century history. No bullshit ten-year trials (a la Milosevic and Pinochet) or a life of luxury in exile (a la Marcos and Ortega).
What about altavista.com? I use it all the time.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
Since I don't see one, here is a link to the HRW report.
Hmm, I'm not an expert on this, but if they're from Taiwan, shouldn't they hold themselves up to a higher standard than mainland China? I thought they did that, and thought of themselves as more democratic. Isn't that why they want independece from China? If not, I may reconsider my support of their independence.
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporters_Without_Bor ders
With the support of corporate America, they are set to dominate the world. China owns all our debt now. Their military is catching up and they're putting men in space. Their companies will drive ours into bankruptcy with their cheaper labor, cheaper managers and cheaper CEOs. This has already happened to our automobile industry at the hands of Japan.
So yes, strong-ARM countries do very well now. Because they've learned how to control their populace, and even suck free nations dry.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
and if my liver starts failing for some reason, I'm sure there's some Chinese prisoner over there who can be harvested to help me out. For a fee, of course. Tough luck about the finding a wife thing in that paradise of a nation, though.
An interesting question is: would Google be breaking the law by not handing over information it doesn't have? In America, Google tracks user activity to build advertising demographics and for some user features. Google continues to do this because it knows it is protected by law from having to compromise its users' privacy. To escape further criticism, it would be prudent for Google not to include such unique user tracking capabilities in its Chinese services.
More interestingly, it was Yahoo! Mail that caused problems for that company. Google does not currently offer Google Mail in China.
There are still what-ifs. What if China demands all search engines track their users? What if China demands to know when certain search terms are used, and from which IP addresses?
Google is the first company to have made its motto "Don't Be Evil". No other company has had to stand by that motto. I don't consider Google's filtration service in China to be evil. I do consider breaching a user's privacy to assist a reprimanded government in penalizing said user for breaking a law that represses a basic human right to be evil.
Google has to put its money where its mouth is. Yes, it remains to be seen whether Google is willing to pull out of a market when the law makes it immoral to remain.
Taiwan has always been part of China, it is not considered an independent country by anybody but 3 or 4 countries (Costa Rica I believe is the one of them with most influence) and it was kicked out of the UN when the PRC asserted its position as the recognized Chinese goverment.
China has no jurisdiction over Taiwan because the island managed to get the US behind them after the civil war, otherwise they would have rejoined the mainland (as they will eventually) by now.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.