$100 Laptop Takes Flight in Thailand

EmperorKagato writes "Nicholas Negroponte's project for every child to have a laptop will come true for over 500 students in Thailand. Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra expects each child to receive a laptop instead of books as the books will be provided electronically. The laptop, mentioned previously on Slashdot, will now be brought to children in Thailand in October and November, with hopes for future shipments to Nigeria, Brazil and Argentina in 2007." This story selected and edited by LinuxWorld editor for the day Saied Pinto.

Comments

Only 500

[NekoXP]

There are only 500 children in Thailand?

If not "a laptop for every child" is a bit short :D

Re:Only 500

[__aaclcg7560]

It's a different program, "a laptop for every child who's parents can afford one".

Re:Only 500

[chadbryant]

There are only 500 children in Thailand?

Well, they *did* just catch JonBenet Ramsey's killer there...

Re:Only 500

[rgravina]

This is a tired old argument. The idea ia that these children can have clean water, food, AND an education. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. This laptop not only provides them with electronic books, but also access to computer hardware, software and potentially the Internet. Just using computing as an example, using this laptop some of these kids might learn how to program, create great software and may eventually land themselves a place in a great university or a great job. I'd guess that the poor want direction in life and an opportunity to educate themselves, do interesting work and improve their lot in life as much (if not more) than the not-so-poor do. It's not *just* about food and water, even though of course these basic necessitiies need to be met. It's important to note that this laptop is aimed at countries, like Thailand, that have an infrastructure in place but are still relatively poor when compared to the US, most of Europe, Japan etc. There are many countries like this throuought Asia, Africa and South America that could really benefit form these laptops.

Re:Only 500

[Burz]

I too would like to know why only 500 quality children are being tested by the laptops.

Signed,
Emily Latella

where can I order mine?

[ems2004]

Where can I order mine?

Re:where can I order mine?

[joe 155]

according to this site; http://www.laptop.org/index.en_US.html you won't be able to buy one, although I had previously heard that you could buy them for $300 as a way of donating 2 to children in the 2nd/3rd world

Re:where can I order mine?

[Kesch]

I had previously heard that you could buy them for $300 as a way of donating 2 to children in the 2nd/3rd world

There was a movement (I don't remember the links) that you could sign up for where you pledged $300 dollars for a laptop with the intent that the extra money would buy laptops for children. However, I think that the $100 laptop guys have yet to accept that offer.

Re:where can I order mine?

[Kadin2048]

Give it six months after the first really big deployment (not this one; this is just 500 units, basically prototypes) and they'll be all over eBay.

Subsidizing the hell out of something and send it to the Third World is a good way to guarantee that it'll end up being sold right back to the First World, if there's any kind of demand.

Re:where can I order mine?

[4solarisinfo]

Your only real shot at getting one (legally) is in the form of a petition suggesting geeks would be willing to help fund 3 computers, if they got one (paying $300 for a $100PC and a warm fuzzy feeling). We discussed it here: http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=19204 0&cid=15771034

Re:where can I order mine?

[88NoSoup4U88]

Yes, and I seriously wonder why, everytime (after the announcement of the 300$-project) this story has come up after that, the editor hasn't bothered to keep including the link to that.

When this project is brought up (and it had its share of /. frontpage-posts), I always see a lot of posts of "I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of them just for tinkering", and 300$ gives you AND good karma, and a very funny lil' computer.
By keeping to mention the 300-dollar deal, I think it's easy for the editors to keep people aware of this possibility, and do their little contribution to which is, imo, a very good start in helping the third world countries partially keep up with the rest of the world.

Re:where can I order mine?

[lmfr]

http://www.pledgebank.com/100laptop, and you're right, that movement was external to the project.

Re:where can I order mine?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is just dumb! Can you imagine the cool things you can do with a fully open hardware/software platform? For hobbyists, or instruction in school?

This is more than just giving poor countries affordable computers, it's ubiquitous computing. I mean, farmers can use this, hobbyists can use this. I could use this. They should let everyone buy one. The sales will help further their overall aims, as a well funded non-profit will be more capable of getting it out there to everyone.

Re:where can I order mine?

[FluffyWithTeeth]

Government property? In Thailand?

Re:where can I order mine?

[Constantine Evans]

The deal has not, as far as I am aware, been discussed as a possibility officially. It is only a proposal made by unrelated people, and due to the wording of the pledge (signatories pledge to only purchase the laptop for $300, and only if over 100000 people sign by October), it is inconceivable that it will be successful except as an indication that there is interest in buying the laptops at an increased price.

Also, from the prices I have seen, $300 barely pays for two computers. It certainly won't pay for three - the laptops cost significantly more than $100 to build.

It would be a far better to discuss the possibility of buying the laptops at a greatly increased price (probably more around $500 or $600) directly with the project. If a show of support is necessary, then a petition on much more general terms would be far more useful (something like "I would be interested in buying one at a greatly increased price.").

Re:where can I order mine?

[RealGrouchy]

Case 1: Most kids (and perhaps their families) who receive the laptops will be extremely appreciative of them, and will cherish them with gratitude. Some may hawk them or break them, but overall the trial was a success.

Case 2: The trial run of ~500 fails miserably, and Negroponte says "boy am I glad the initial run was only 500 instead of >1 miilon!)

There are two main things to fixing poverty in the undeveloped world: proper inter- and intra-national distribution of food, and educating the masses (although the US will only allow education if it's done in the right way).

Obviously the distribution plan isn't airtight. Some laptops will be broken, stolen, sold, or misused, and some kids may fall through the cracks because of it. But that doesn't mean we should cancel the project and rob millions of children of this opportunity--then nobody will fall through the cracks, they'll just all be in a big ugly hole.

- RG>

Re:where can I order mine?

[ChrisGilliard]

On the black market for these laptops that will be cropping up shortly in Thailand.

Re:where can I order mine?

[Anonymous Coward]

a very good start in helping the third world countries partially keep up with the rest of the world

I am not sure if the third-world countries are third-world because their kids don't have laptops

Re:where can I order mine?

[Daengbo]

There are two main things to fixing poverty in the undeveloped world:

Really, though, Thailand is not that poor. Prime Minister Thaksin is himself worth something like US$600m, being a telcom baron and the richest man in the country. The rest of the country is fairly well developed when seen in comparison with other countries in the area. Try visiting Cambodia or Laos and then comparing the experience to Thailand.

When I originally read about this deployment of laptops last week, I wondered why Thailand was even on the list of countries which would receive donated laptops. The Thai Open Source team with the gov't NECTEC program just released a new version (7.0) of the School Internet Server which puts just about every school online and makes it easy for them to share Internet in a computer lab (computers likely provided by MS during their push to reduce piracy).

Thailand is NOT rich, and there are pockets of severe poverty (just as there are in most countries), but Thailand is not an underdeveloped country. It is generally regarded as developing.

Re:where can I order mine?

[magores]

I'm an American schoolteacher in China. Am I allowed to order multiple machines on behalf of my students, plus one for myself? /I'm guessing not... These are for under-developed countries. China would never let itself be grouped with "under-developed" countries.

Re:where can I order mine?

[lotusburg]

As a long time resident of Thailand, I'm betting the "lucky" 500 kids are those of PM Taksin's very rich friends, who give their kids $100 a day pocket money. They'll fool with them for a day or so, toss them aside, then go back to their shiny IBMs, HPs, Macs, etc. The deserving poor majority will never get their grubby fingers on them.

Warranty coverage?

[Kesch]

$100 Laptop Takes Flight in Thailand

I know these laptops are built to be rugged, but is it really a good idea to send them flying through the air?

Re:Warranty coverage?

[gardyloo]

I know these laptops are built to be rugged, but is it really a good idea to send them flying through the air?

      It's all the rage. Jon-Benet's killer was apparently doing it there, too.

Re:Warranty coverage?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no... they just mean that in Thailand, unlike the UK, these children would be allowed to take their laptops on an airplane.

Re:Warranty coverage?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to these fine chaps, this whole "cheap and easy to use laptop for the poor" thing is a heartless scam.

Re:Warranty coverage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiot!

Re:Warranty coverage?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it seems that man's confession was delusional, because parts of it contradict the known evidences.

Re:Warranty coverage?

[Anonymous Coward]

how long before they are "Randomly" Selected to be tested for "Security reasons"?

You know, they could use those laptops to take controll of the plane and fly it into a building! It's true, the government will be announcing it soon, it's why the US isn't allowed to get any of them.

Well that & it would be to smart, you know, using these laptops in school the same way they are going to in Thailand, no more need for books when they can have all of their assignments, books and what not right there in an easy to carry laptop instead of 80lbs of books.

Re:Warranty coverage?

[bhiestand]

Well that & it would be to smart, you know, using these laptops in school the same way they are going to in Thailand, no more need for books when they can have all of their assignments, books and what not right there in an easy to carry laptop instead of 80lbs of books.

Last I saw, obesity was a major problem facing american schoolchildren. I say we make them carry the laptops and a UPS in addition to the books, not instead of them. And let's take away the schoolbuses and cars, too. I would like to be the first to suggest the "$100 Bicycle for Every Child" project.

Seriously, though, I wish the media and publishing conglomerates would allow digital copies of the books to be distributed instead. It would've made my education at least slightly better, although it makes it harder to do your homework on the way to school.

It's a trial run.

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

There are only 500 children in Thailand?

It's a trial run - from tfa:

More than 500 children in Thailand are expected to receive the machines in October and November for quality testing and debugging.

Re:It's a trial run.

[soft_guy]

There are only 500 children in Thailand?

It's a trial run - from tfa:

Thanks for clearing that up. We all seriously thought that there might be only 500 children in Thailand. The GPP did not pretend to misunderstand this point purely for comic effect.

Re:It's a trial run.

[kemo_by_the_kilo]

"More than 500 children in Thailand are expected to receive the machines in October and November for quality testing and debugging.
those monsters using child labor like that.... or is it outsourcing? and taking away from our child laborers.

Re:It's a trial run.

[sysAdminEnvy]

I find it appalling that the Thai government are going to 'quality test' and 'debug' children.
Someone call the UN.

Re:It's a trial run.

[tehcyder]

Thanks for clearing that up. We all seriously thought that there might be only 500 children in Thailand. The GPP did not pretend to misunderstand this point purely for comic effect.

Oh, I thought that the GPP did pretend to misunderstand this point purely for comic effect. I'm sorry.

So there are only 500 children in Thailand after all? Who'd have thought it?

Anxious to see them in action

[OakDragon]

I am anxious to see these laptops in action. I have heard a lot of criticism that rather than laptops, the poor children of the world need clean water and nutritious food first. This is, of course, true. But such criticism supposes that all the poor are living in mud and filth. Not true - some have their basic needs somewhat met, and perhaps education is next on the list of needs.

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[88NoSoup4U88]

...and perhaps education is next on the list of needs. Very much agree with your post; I might even argue that education also helps in accomplishing the other necesities you pointed out (teaching them to fish, so to speak).

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[vga_init]

Right, but this is the way I see it: A lot of people blindly convert commidities into cash. If you consider the resources and labor that go into the production of electronics, you'll notice something--it's different! Electronics are made from plastics and metals in factories, by factory workers. Could these facilities produce food? Maybe...probably very poorly. Could these workers convert to managing a different kind of production? Sure, but they'd be less efficient!

Furthermore, the facilities and workers for producing such laptops are in place, and they themselves cannot benefit 3rd world children in terms of food and water and health care. But can they contribute? Yes, they can, and that $100 going in exchange for the production of those laptops is not equivalent to $100 dollars worth of food! If things are balanced right, the value of the machines will be right and will not outweigh money spent on other items such as food.

Food and water are essential, but it's unfair to say that the laptops would not be beneficial just as well. More pressing needs may exist, but every little thing helpful counts.

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[Locutus]

That's what I was wondering about when India made that statement about how they'd be better off spending money on schools and teachers. You got to wonder how some of those kid who are getting a decent education in India would react if they were told their schools can't purchase computers because a village with 10 kids needs a school and a teacher. THAT is effectively what they said when they dissed OLPC.

It really shouldn't be and all-or-nothing proposal and you might think that OLPC should start marketing toward some of the wealther businesses in India instead of the government. I guess the 1 million quantity could seem too large but for India?

And it would seem like wealth would be relative to certain hubs and decrease as one moved further away from say large cities. In this case, it would be a case of improving the education in the appropriate 'wealth ring' such that with education comes wealth and therefore, wealth eventually moves up a notch if OLPC can help in a particular 'wealth ring'. I probably didn't say that very clearly but the idea is that if OLPC can help improve the wealth just outside a hub/city, it'll also improve the wealth outside of that area. IMO

LoB

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[DieNadel]

This is completely true. I've taught at a poor comunity in South America whose members were able to provide for their basic needs, like water (pit) and food (familiar agriculture and livestock), but were clearly lacking in education.

The problem lies basically at bringing the information to them, and a laptop like this would create a path for the information to flow (it could even be preloaded with classes' material) and teaching means as well (it could have educational and interactive software).

I think that basic needs MUST be addressed first, but if you want these people to progress in the society, the only way to achieve this is through education.

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[ThosLives]

The problem isn't so much 'bringing the information to them' but 'bringing the information to them in a way that doesn't take too much time away from meeting their basic needs'. This is why improving the base quality of living is so important.

Here's a for instance. Let's say that a child in some part of the world has 16 waking hours a day, and it takes 12 of those to get food, clean water, etc. This means that there are 4 hours left for education. I am not convinced that a person can learn more in 4 hours from a computer than they can learn in 4 hours from more tranditional means. However, if you give them some kind of automated washing machine, or refrigeration so they can store food, so they only need to spend 8 hours getting food and clean clothes, you have doubled the amount of time available for education - and I'm quite convinced that you can learn more in 8 hours than you can in 4 hours (all else being equal, of course).

Now, having a computer might make it possible to learn more per unit time, because, for instance, if there is only a single book people have to share, so some time is wasted. Electronic copies could mean more people can look at the same material in a given period of time, but I'm still not convinced that it will help speed up the learning process. But I don't think that has anything to do with the rate of learning, but just with the availability issue, as you mentioned. The problem I think isn't that "villiages" don't have enough books - it's that they don't have *any* books. Here's a for-instance: instead of spending time to ship the laptops into the area, why not spend the time to ship in books? Unless the licenses (ugh, I hate that word) for the educational material are very inexpensive, and can easily be brought to the "villiages", I think books are just as viable an alternative. Books tend to last longer, too, and don't suffer from "what format is that in" syndrome either.

As a final note, is anyone aware of studies that show the relative rate of learning using traditional means versus with electronic presentation?

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[penguin_dance]

I think the idea that these people are so poor they don't even have clean water or food is an elitist, bourgeoisie view of the rest of the world. They assume that because they're getting a $100 laptop that they must live in mud huts. Obviously, they have to charge up the laptop so electrical power is required. It's just that a laptop would be a luxury, especially where elders would not be so different from American parents a decade or two ago asking, "But what can you really do with THAT thing?"

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[fm6]

Probably nothing exciting is going to happen with these laptops. As the story suggests, the kids will mainly use the laptops to read textbooks. Then again, they'll have access to a lot of books they didn't previously have access to — which is probably exciting for them.

One thing folks miss when they criticize this probject: it will save the countries that buy them a lot of money. Buying and transporting books is expensive.

The projects that do the best for the developing world address mundane, unglamorous issues. And believe it or not, that's what the $100 laptop does: address mundane issues. Like lack of access to a library.

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[asuffield]

Education, yes. Education is accomplished by sending them teachers. Heavy text-only cellphones? Those don't seem very high on the list of needs to me. Education is not accomplished with a web browser. And yes, the laptops have been dumbed down to the level of western luxury cellphones. They are not intended to be laptops in the sense that we understand the term; they are not the universal tool that you expect from a laptop or desktop computer.

It's unclear quite how useful these things are going to be, but they aren't going to be anywhere near as useful as education would be. Whether or not they are better value for the money spent is also unclear at this point - just keep in mind that it's not going to be a world-changing event, like some of the pundits would have you believe. At best it's going to improve their quality of life and grease the wheels a little. They'll still need proper education and a lot of work to build up a viable industrial base to the level that gets them above the poverty line (agrarian cottage industries are fine, they just need to be producing enough stuff to meet their own basic needs).

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[zhenya00]

Mod this up - please!! For gods sake, much of the world has a house to live in, a decent job, electricity, food, (without spending 12 hours a day getting it!!) even television and many other '1st world' luxuries. Many of these people are on the verge of being able to break through to a better life, but $500 or more for a computer is and will remain out of their league. This is who these laptops are destined for. Not the people just coming out of the depths of the forest for the first time.

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[kabz]

For people tending livestock, and growing produce for their families, the laptop will bring communications.

Cable TV never delivered on the kinds of promises of learning and interesting programs the companies made to us. It took the internet, wikipedia, youtube etc.

I'm sure that after a time these laptops will stimulate a relatively large growth in the web in the countries it is seeded in. Many web-sites in the native language will appear and although much of it may be porn, a lot will be of direct use to the kinds of people that could benefit most from the kinds of on-line information that people in the West take for granted. An example would be better access to basics such as weather forecasts. Imagine going to sleep not knowing if your crops are going to be washed away. These laptops will probably provide many unexpected benefits, and Negroponte has been smart to try and build as simple, robust and useful a device as possible.

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[Herby Sagues]

Buying and transporting books IS expensive. Yes. But buying and transporting (and supporting, and getting people trained for) a computer is even more so. Lets's start with this not being a $100 computer. It is actually a $200 (probably $250) computer subsidized at point of origin and built by non for profit companies (according to Negroponte's statements). Then filled with books from companies that have dissed their royalties. Compare that with books. If you got books made by non for profit companies that didn't have to pay royalties for the content, were distributed for free by the government and didn't have to be hardcover, top quality, how much would they cost? $1? $2 a piece? Given the cost of paper, that's probably it. Now, with $250 you can buy probably two hundred books. Since this is not rush delivery, distributing those books can be done for probably less than $1 a book in bulk via truck (transport is cheap in most third world countries if you don't care about speed or careful handling), so let's say you get 100 books at destination. Now, obviously a kid will not read 100 books simultaneously, and you might get to teach to 100 children with the same money you buy one laptop. And the books will probably last a decade, not have to be supported or get people trained for, and be less likely to get resold. So if the laptops are going to be used mainly for replacing books, they are an awful deal. With the money spent for those 500 kids they could be buying and deploying books for fifty thousand children if not more. If the computers are going to be used for other things then the math might be different, but I still seriously doubt this machine is the right solution, as the design is so full of unproven factors that it has a 99% chance of having serious problems. And many of them might not be easy (or possible at all) to solve.

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[fm6]

Indeed, the folks tending livestock will want weather reports and commodity prices. They'll access chat rooms where they can discuss cattle diseases and breeding strategies.

And yes, many such folk are illiterate. So they'll be after their kids to learn to read, so the whole family can go online.

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[fm6]

Where do you get your information? The official line is that the laptops cost about $130 to make, and that's without any subsidy. That's the official line from the project. If you have any information to the contrary (beyond your own ignorant opinion as to how much it costs to build a laptop) let's see a pointer to it, or at least a reference I can find at the library.

Your notions about the economics of printing books is pure fantasy. Paper is not that cheap, and your statements about the cost of transportation is pure nonsense. I mean, how do you transport big truckloads of books where there are no roads?

What's this bullshit about "training"? Have you ever seen a small kid with a computer? They teach themselves, being too naive to know how hard it is.

There's more in your amorphous blob of rant I should respond to, but I'm bored now.

Re:Anxious to see them in action

[siriuskase]

Another benefit that many here have overlooked is that these things will create a cottage industry for teenage and younger to support the product. Not all the kids will know the ins and outs of the hardware, software, and Linux, but quite a few will pick it up quickly on their own or with just a little help from expensive adults. And they will be in a much better position to help out their neighbors than those expensive adults who will probably leave the village after spending only a week or two launching the project. These kids' computer support and repair skills will be transferable to other projects as they mature. I do hope these machines are reasonably hackable for the hardware geeks of the village.

Ebooks for the poor

[amightywind]

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra expects each child to receive a laptop instead of books as the books will be provided electronically.

Reading DRM'd books on an 8 inch screen. Sweet! And all you have to do is turn the crank madly to see anything. These poor kids are gonna end up with right arms like Hell Boy.

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[BigNumber]

Must...Not...Make...Masturbation...Joke...

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[XxtraLarGe]

These poor kids are gonna end up with right arms like Hell Boy.

At least they could put a crank on each side so the kids can look like Popeye!

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[mrchaotica]

Reading DRM'd books on an 8 inch screen.

The books are NOT DRM'd. The entire system is strictly freely-licensed.

And all you have to do is turn the crank madly to see anything.

It doesn't have a hand crank anymore.

So, in other words, STFU because you're either ignorant or trolling.

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[elrous0]

I suspect this whole deployment is more about saving government money (tens of thousands of textbooks cost a LOT more than $5000) than actually helping any kids. The kids will be stuck reading plain text books on an 8 inch screen and the prime minister will get a new palace.

-Eric

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[dan828]

Nothing wrong with a crank for power-- there are probably quite a few Dell laptop owners wishing that they had such sophisticated and reliable technology.

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[Kadin2048]

I don't think, or at least I've never heard, that any of the software on the system would support DRM.

Nobody that I know of has ever proposed a good open-source DRM system, to the point where I'm beginning to think that it's impossible. DRM is security through obscurity; obscurity is anathema to open-source software; therefore it's very hard to try to implement DRM on an OSS platform, unless you use binary blobs or something.

The use of systems like this, combined with strong licensing (if you could make the libraries for the system GPL instead of LGPL, so that it would be difficult to write closed-source software that would run on them) then it might guarantee that there wouldn't be any DRMed eBooks for them.

And that would be, in my mind, a very Good Thing. I can't really think of many more disturbing informational concepts than the idea of a book that burns itself; particularly when you give that to kids so that they accept it as part of the way things ought to work.

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[jcgf]

Nothing wrong with a crank for power

That's for sure. I have a shortwave radio that's powered by a hand crank and it's pretty kick ass.

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[punkr0x]

The entire system is strictly freely-licensed.

Who's providing the free textbooks?

It doesn't have a hand crank anymore.

So, in other words, STFU because you're either ignorant or trolling.

Yeah, it has a footpedal doofus! That's completely different!

Actually they discussed several things, including using a foot pedal, and a crank on the external power supply (as opposed to the original design connected directly to the laptop), but they don't appear to have made a decision. The picture in the FA shows a hand crank. But surely you wouldn't have called someone ignorant without doing a little research; what did they end up using for these laptops in Thailand?

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[1u3hr]

The picture in the FA shows a hand crank

The picture credit is "Getty Images/AFP", the text is from AP. Some editor dug up a file photo to illustrate the story. The crank is not part of the current design. Besides, just about every village in Thailand is electrified, they'll use mains power directly or to charge the battery.

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[mrchaotica]

Who's providing the free textbooks?

Wikibooks, among other things

But surely you wouldn't have called someone ignorant without doing a little research

The "STFU" was in response to the DRM bit as well. Or, in fact, it was almost entirely in response to the DRM bit, because the only way someone could possibly think this project would even consider using DRM is if they were entirely ignorant about it. FYI, the people designing the thing are huge advocates of Free Software, Creative Commons, etc. There's no way in Hell they'd consider putting DRM in the thing -- they even rejected all non-Free software!

The only other possibility -- that he did know the background of the project and said what he said anyway -- means that he would have been intentionally spreading FUD.

what did they end up using for these laptops in Thailand?

Not built-in hand cranks!

(In other words, I don't know -- but I'm not going to pretend that I do, unlike the guy I replied to.)

Re:Ebooks for the poor

[soupforare]

k, I will, then.

...crank madly to see anything

Doesn't cranking madly lead to impaired vision?

500 OLPC's in all of Thailand?

[spacepimp]

This is an absurdly low number of deployments. 500 children in all of thailand? Im wondering if the project is seriously missing the mark. For it to be even profitable it needs ot operate on a volume so significantly larger than this, i can only assume the response/need for these device was grossy overestimated.

Laptops instead of books

[YrWrstNtmr]

each child to receive a laptop instead of books as the books will be provided electronically.
While good to get some tech in these kids hands, I can't help wondering about permanence. Without the printed page, past facts are easily changed to suit current attitudes. I know this isn't quite the case yet. But as we go farther down the road with ebooks, it will be a concern.

Who are we at war with today?

Re:Laptops instead of books

[Penguin Programmer]

Do you remember elementary school? The books you had access to at school were the ones that the school decided you should have access to. It's no harder for the school to say "only books that say ________ is evil are allowed" as it is to change e-books to say "_________ is evil."

I think this is a non-issue here.

Re:Laptops instead of books

[Kesch]

While good to get some tech in these kids hands, I can't help wondering about permanence. Without the printed page, past facts are easily changed to suit current attitudes. I know this isn't quite the case yet. But as we go farther down the road with ebooks, it will be a concern.

You my friend are suffering from a mild case of Tinfoil Hat Syndrome. Electronically stored text is easily as permanent as a dead tree version. (Digital storage medium lifetimes aside). A pdf on my computer will not change its facts to suit anyone's whims save my own. Now I do agree that we should be wary of DRM'ed ebooks as a means of reference material (too easy to lose the decoder in the long term and render it unable to be read). It wouldn't also be entirely paranoid (just mildly, some might even say 'healthy') to be wary of some ebooks on certain subjects that phone home for updates. (Or at least make sure the updates are documented and easy to verify.) Still, I just find it hard to believe that the sort of Orwellian control of ebook information you envision will ever be a huge threat.

Who are we at war with today?

Drugs and terrorism. There's also some unresolved issues in Iraq.

Re:Laptops instead of books

[stefanlasiewski]

Paper books still have a permanence which

I still have a geography book from the 1970s which describes Russia or the USSR as a godless dictatorship and Iran as a friendly tourist destination and ally of the US. I've held 60-year-old children's textbooks from Nazi Germany describing Hitler as a brave Nordic warrior fighting against the "Dirty Jews", complete with cartoon drawings showing the 'evil' Jewish bankers (complete with stereotypically large noses and evil squity eyes) and landlords evicting the 'poor Aryan families'. I've read dozens of books and articles about Nazi history, but nothing has had the impact of that childrens schoolbook.

These objects are more permanent then an electronic copy. If a powerful group wanted to 'rewrite history', they could never destroy all of the old copies of these text. There are hundreds or thousands of copies of these same texts laying around in attics, closets and museums throughout the the US and Europe.

It is different with eBooks. Unless some effort is taken to preserve the old and pro old text, it may become impossible to find old versions of the text. The electronic text will be updated with a new version, copywright forbids unauthorized copies and distribution of the text, backups are lost, digital copies will degrade-- are there any digital archivists who are keeping a copy of these texts? In a decade, I doubt that there will be any surviving copies of this exact version of the text.

Perhaps the publisher may retain a digital copy on a CD in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard". Will this old text be available to historians or anyone who requests it?

Re:Laptops instead of books

[falconwolf]

Without the printed page, past facts are easily changed to suit current attitudes. I know this isn't quite the case yet. But as we go farther down the road with ebooks, it will be a concern.

That's right, ebooks are easier to edit and via satellite are easy to update. If a printed book is found to have errs it has to be reprinted whereas ebooks are easy to edit then transit to update the book on a harddrive.

Falcon

Re:Laptops instead of books

[middlemen]

Not only permanence, eBooks suck in some ways. Agreed, they are a good way to save paper but what about making notes. I could buy a text book, make notes in the margins, underline important statements, doodle heart-shaped signs for the sexy English literature teacher or girl next to me, but one cannot do that using eBooks. If this is the way life is going to work now, I hope someone invents eMotion.

Re:Laptops instead of books

[Clod9]

The great thing about electronic books is that you can gather them up and keep them, on cheap and convenient storage devices.
If even a few people splurge on a $29.95 USB device and keep copies of every electronic text they're given, then changes in such things as the "official version of history" and the "current stance of the scientific establishment" can be tracked and compared with similar collections from around the world. It's a lot better than paper, which requires keeping 30-year-old copies of the Encyclopaedia Britannica and whatnot.
Sure, it's going to be easy for authorities to change their story; but it'll also be easier for those who are interested to catch them at their game.

Re:Laptops instead of books

[stefanlasiewski]

On the downside, I can't find that cartoon picture anywhere on the web. You'll just have to trust me. Believe it or not, one person has accused me as being a pawn in the Jewish world conspiracy because I could not produce that picture.

Re:Laptops instead of books

[blonde rser]

While good to get some tech in these kids hands, I can't help wondering about permanence. Without the printed page, past facts are easily changed to suit current attitudes. I know this isn't quite the case yet. But as we go farther down the road with ebooks, it will be a concern.

I agree with you that we do need to be concerned about facts changing with time and how do we record the past (in fact I think this happens all of the time, and it appears to me it happens mostly due to negligence and not due to direct influence by those in power). However, I think you are only looking at half of the scale when it comes ebooks. Yes, it is hard to white out facts on old textbooks through out the world. But at the same time it is hard to read old textbooks that are across the world. What you lose in the ability to detect manipulation you more than make up for in availability. After all, I can still easily look at the first linux kernel without going to a library. But I find it extremely hard to find print evidence of whether or not their existed a debate about the existence of WMDs in Iraq before the war. (Guys, like Kerry will tell you that everyone believed in WMDs so he had no reason to doubt their existence. Yet, somehow I remember a debate.) Even with DRM, digital texts are more available simply because they don't go out of print.

Re:Laptops instead of books

[zhenya00]

What makes it any harder to keep old versions of ebooks than paper books? If anything, it will be harder to rewrite history, because if the 'official' version of a text is changed to represent the current times/regime/etc. it will always have the opportunity to be subverted by distribution of an older version. As we well know, once a file is copied once, it can be distributed around the world in a matter of hours. What do you think is going to happen? They're going to gather up all of these copies and replace them with the new official version? Even if they somehow could, it'd only take a single surviving copy to start the same circle over again. I'm sorry, I don't buy your argument. For centuries access to paper books and the written word were the method by which the elite kept their power. Even today, because of the cost of making and transporting books, many people have access to very little printed material. Moving that information to the digital domain can't be anything but a benefit to the vast majority of mankind.

in the west

[steincastle]

we still prohibit children to use computers at schools, well mostly

Crank For Porn

[ReidMaynard]

Come'on kids, it's fun.

Obligatory, given today's news

[eurleif]

Now when John Mark Karr kills children in his new country, he can get free laptops!

And in other news...

[LatexBendyMan]

Child Pornography in Thailand increases by 200%

Taking flight?

[Coopjust]

Looks like Ballmer got to them first...

Preemptive

[Tweekster]

Not everyone that is poor in the world is starving to death and barely able to make any sort of living. Some people are just poor, their basic needs are met though, now they need education, that is what this laptop is for. Not the people that are literally starving to death or still have to worry about the plague.

If your response was gonna be "why dont they worry about feeding them instead" you are an idiot, and should frankly just shut up.

Re:Preemptive

[ArtStone]

I was listening to China Radio International this morning, and one of their news stories is about how obesity is becoming a major problem in China.
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?typ e=healthNews&storyID=2006-08-18T091627Z_01_HKG6768 4_RTRUKOC_0_US-CHINA-OBESITY.xml

So much for Moms trying to pass along the old "Finish your meal - children in China are starving"....

In a possibly related news story, scientists have determined that Chinese heads are getting smaller.
http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2906/2006/08/18/65@128 352.htm

$800 desk chair takes flight in Redmond.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

And yet, here in the US...

[HoboMaster]

Public school children are mostly prohibited from having laptops in class, many private schools only allow laptops with special permission, and the private schools that use laptops still force their students to deal with paper textbooks. What I want to know is, when do we get "a computer for every child" in the US?

Re:And yet, here in the US...

[mcguiver]

The problem with using laptops here in the US is what the children use the laptops for. It is really obnoxious when you are trying to teach a class and the students are using their laptops to play games, surf the internet, chat with friends, cheat on tests, and so on. I am sure that there are many people who would love to help fund a project like this in the US as there are many benefits that laptops provide (how much better is math when you can plug an equation into a graph and then make changes to the equation and see how the graph changes, or to see 3-d models of molecules and see how a reaction takes place). The big hold-up is how much less learning kids do when they sit down in front of a computer.

I know, there are many exceptions and many kids use computers for learning, but the fact reamains that many don't, and those who don't can be distracting to those who do.

Re:And yet, here in the US...

[dwayner79]

The answer is thin clients with right restricted features like IM to the teacher but not other students, teacher controlled desktops, etc. You can easily force a molecule to be on the screen during your lesson with all other apps disabled, then allow the student to IM during a test to the teacher. These are the types of systems that we should have in US schools IMHO.

Re:And yet, here in the US...

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to refurb older computers and give them away to local poor kids, but I stopped doing that. Without exception all they were used for was playing video games. Heck with that!

Re:And yet, here in the US...

[hey!]

Public school children are mostly prohibited from having laptops in class, many private schools only allow laptops with special permission, and the private schools that use laptops still force their students to deal with paper textbooks. What I want to know is, when do we get "a computer for every child" in the US?

If there were ever a case of apples to oranges, this is it.

In the first place, for all we know the kids will be expected to put their computers away and work with the teacher much of the day -- just as they are in US classrooms where they have access to computers but aren't allowed to spend all their time on them (as my kids would if they could).

Also, the marginal cost/benefit equation is different. Middle class US kids also have access to books in the classroom, in the school library, in the public library, and at home. Ditto for computer and Internet access. Absolutely banning computer use in the classroom has little impact on their access to information, so if there is any downside to laptop use, then it makes sense to limit it. There are places in the world where access to information is very limited; in that case any problems with computer use are swamped by the value of opening a world of information up.

I've travelled in certain countries abroad where there is a huge gap between the rich and the poor and not much middle class. One thing I've noticed is that books tend to be very expensive in absolute terms there. Figuring the exchange rate, you could live like a king there for not much money in every respect except your personal library. In terms of the median income household, books are inconceivably expensive.

But you're right in this. It should a scandal how poor access to books are for US children in poor districts. Not to mention computer access. Especially since these things are inexpensive in absolute terms and downright cheap relative to our median national wealth levels.

Re:And yet, here in the US...

[tchuladdiass]

Actually, a number of high schools are starting programs that are laptop-intensive. Usually the kids will have to qualify for the program, but it is otherwise no different than some kids doing basic studies, v.s. othere doing college prep. This is just another level above college prep.
Also, most of the schools around here require one of the fancy $100 TI calculators (presumably because of the graphing capabilities, but I think it is so the teacher doesn't have to actually "teach" math, but instead just instructs the students to press specific buttons on the calculator and record the results). I'd rather see them standardize on an older style PDA platform (like the older palm pilots), running calculator software, rather than using turbo-charged single-purpose calculators. Of course, back in my day you'd be hard pressed to find a teacher that let you bring in any caluculator in a math class.

Re:And yet, here in the US...

[bbcisdabomb]

Actually, if you gave these laptops to children, about half of them will use it for the purpose you intended it for- that is, research, typing, ebooks and the like- while at school. While at home, this is a moot point.

The problem is the other 50%, who will cheat, IM, and play games during class.

Re:And yet, here in the US...

[crhylove]

I can tell you exactly when:

When we have real elections and the good of the people is actually being looked after again by the government. To OLPC the US would only take the price of 20 days of the war in Iraq, but none of the members of congress stand to make much money off of that, so fat chance.

rhY

Re:And yet, here in the US...

[planetmn]

but I think it is so the teacher doesn't have to actually "teach" math, but instead just instructs the students to press specific buttons on the calculator and record the results

Interesting that my mother-in-law, a junior high math teacher, complains about exactly the opposite. That the students whine about learning math, and insist that a calculator is a proper way to learn math. She does not let them use a calculator until they have mastered the mathematical concepts. And before you start criticizing the math teachers, maybe you should look at the attitudes and mathematical skill levels of the parents, and see where the "calculator as a crutch" mentality comes from.

-dave

Time for more FUD to start showing up on OLPC

[Locutus]

Or we'll be seeing the press flooded with how B/M Gates Floundation is 'donating' Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office to schools and libraries. It could also be time for the MS-FlexGO FUD to start pouring out into the press. You know, the Pay-As-You-Go version of Micrososfts software on hardware which is locked down and disabled if you don't pay. IMO, this is going to be BillG's new job as he spends more time fighting OLPC and lets Steve and Ozzie move Microsoft toward finding some new way for them to make money somewhere besides the 20 year old WindowsPC market/monopoly.

Get ready, they're dumping a couple of billion bucks into marketing this year so it's going to be raining FUD soon.

LoB

Sounds like a good idea, but questions remain

[Harry Balls]

I understand these 500 notebook computers are merely a trial run, the actual quantity needed is probably around 5 million.

I see some problems, however.
The minimum wage in Thailand is just below $100 per month. That's right, $100.

What if the notebook computer gets damaged through fault of the kid?
What if the notebook computer gets damaged through no fault of the kid?
What if the notebook computer gets stolen?
What if the notebook computer gets sold by the kid / his [drug-addicted] [financially distressed] parent?

A family with one minimum wage earner could be pushed into financial ruin by any of these events.

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but questions remain

[ElleyKitten]

I would hope that if a child's laptop gets stolen/broke/whatever, that the would have alternatives so the child can learn without it (school desktop computers, textbooks, etc) until another laptop is donated. I really would hope schools wouldn't expect, or force, parents to replace it.

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but questions remain

[Viking Coder]

They're not meant to be bought by individuals or families, but rather by governments. The plan is to make them ubiquitous, so that they're a completely commodity - in other words, there's no point in stealing them, and there's no value in selling them.

Yes, if they get busted, that's a problem - that's why they're as rugged as possible. Probably the kid just exchanges it for a working one. (If they break several, then you've got a problem kid, I guess...)

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but questions remain

[Constantine Evans]

Except that the plan isn't to make them ubiquitous, the plan is to only give them to students, and not allow others to buy them, even at a significantly higher price. There are at least several thousand people in the US who would pay $300 or more for one of the laptops (I would probably pay $600 or so if it were sold officially).

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but questions remain

[AxelBoldt]

The children don't own the machines, so they are not free to sell them. Which means that anyone found in possession of a machine who is not a student of a developing country is by necessity in possession of stolen property, and the machine can simply be confiscated and returned to the owner.

Re:Sounds like a good idea, but questions remain

[Anonymous Coward]

They use their brother's or sister's or neighbour's or friend's or uncle's or aunt's of course. Thai society is extremely communal, especially in the poor rural areas. Its easy to forget how other societies function when you live in one where the idea of family is 'my husband, my kid and my dog' and you don't know the name of your neighbour.

Or they buy an unwanted one cheap from the next village. Or they borrow 200 Baht and get the thing fixed. Or they fix it themselves. They are poor, not helpless.

Re:It's a trial run^H^H^HFFlight

[ackthpt]

$100 Laptop Takes Flight in Thailand

I certainly *want* a flying laptop! And for a meager $100, too. I suppose the FAA, BAA and IATA are keeping these out of other hands around the world. Those lucky thai!

I for one welcome our new flying laptop overlords

No Hellboy arms actually

[nacs]

And all you have to do is turn the crank madly to see anything. These poor kids are gonna end up with right arms like Hell Boy.

Actually, the real models (ie: non-3d illustration) dont have cranks:

As initially envisioned, the laptops sported a hand crank on the side to generate power, but Negroponte has scrapped that idea because the twisting forces that would be bad for the machine. Instead, some form of power generation device, likely a pedal, will be attached to the AC power adapter, he said.

Re:No Hellboy arms actually

[siriuskase]

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image:Green_and_white_ma chine.jpg

the only problem is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Replacing books with e-books causes all sorts of problems. No notes on the side of the page, no highlighting, harder to share / look on with a friend, harder to work collaboratively, harder to read at length, harder to transport.

Books are *great*. Reading off of a computer screen is *terrible*.

Re:the only problem is...

[tepples]

No notes on the side of the page, no highlighting

Annotation software already exists.

harder to share / look on with a friend, harder to work collaboratively

Collaboration software already exists.

harder to read at length

Can you back up this assertion?

harder to transport

Perhaps for full-sized notebooks, but not for the OLPC subnotebook.

Re:the only problem is...

[blueZ3]

No notes on the side of the page, no highlighting

Annotation software already exists.

Yes... and we're expecting people with little or no computer experience to install and configure this software... on Linux?

harder to share / look on with a friend, harder to work collaboratively

Collaboration software already exists.

The more important issue in this one is "harder to look on with a friend". At 8", the screen is going to be hard enough to use when you're hunched over with your face a few inches from it. And again, who will install this collaboration software?

Harder to read at length

Can you back up this assertion?

I'll have to dig around a bit, but I'm a writer and I've seen studies that indicate a bias towards paper for reading longer works. Eyestrain is a well-know phenomena among those who spend large amounts of time staring at a screen. Maybe these new screens will be better in terms of reflectivity and emitted light, or maybe their small size will cancel any advantage out. We don't know yet.

harder to transport

Perhaps for full-sized notebooks, but not for the OLPC subnotebook.

Here, I think you're correct. Even if the overall dimensions of the laptop a larger than any one book, the ability to store multiple books in the single laptop makes it unlikely that the computer will be harder to transport than a pile of books. The one issue will be fragility--school kids are VERY hard on things and paper books are extremely resilient.

This project has a noble goal, but it's important to be rational about what the project can be expected to accomplish. Setting realistic expectations is extremely important if this isn't going to be written off as another pie-in-the-sky plan that didn't pan out.

The correct expectation lies somewhere between the nutjobs who are saying that a $100 laptop and an offline copy of Wikipedia will solve all of Africa's ills and the nay-sayers who complain it'll never work.

Re:the only problem is...

[falconwolf]

harder to read at length

Can you back up this assertion?

I agree with most of the post but I have an issue with the above part. I know when I read long pages on my computer if I don't read a printout of and read on the screen my eyes get sore and I get a headache. This is true with crts, I don't recall if it's true with lcds as I haven't used one in years. Hopefully within a few weeks I'll find out as I'm planning on getting a new laptop.

Falcon

Re:the only problem is...

[VAXcat]

And these laptops are going to have far shorter useful lifetimes than a textbook...I have textbooks I bought for college in 1971 that are still useful (physics and math don't change that quickly, at least at the Newtonian level)...how useful will one of these laptios be 30 years from now?

Re:the only problem is...

[Anonymous Coward]

No. For notes on the side you use annotation software. I also asume you would be able to choose if you want to see those notes or not, thus easily restoring the book to its "vanilla" condition - possible with normal books? No.

A book is hard to share, you have to either read the same page at the same time, or find a photocopier. With an e-book you just make a digital copy and give to your friend. E-books are vastly superior to normal books when it comes to share with your friends.

I also do not agree with your statement that its harder to transport. If you have your physics book, a math book and maybe a book with numbers/formulas, they can be *HEAVY*. In the notebook you might have hundreds of books and you can carry them with you anywhere you go! E-books are thus much more easy to transport than normal books. Also, if you just want to send a copy of the book to someone, an ebook can be e-mailed but a normal book must be snailmailed.

Harder to read is probably pretty individual and I bet its a matter of what one is used to. Personally I prefer reading on a monitor. I can have several "books" up on the same time, I can have several different pages from the same book visible at the same time. I can easily search for words in the book and instantly scroll from page 12 to page 382.

I say e-books is superior in every way to normal books. Those that dont like e-books are probably just old people used to "the way things used to be". :)

500, huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

With that amount they could probably give a laptop to 1 in 100 of the thai children currently employed in brothels!

Free textbooks as a trial balloon for DRM e-books?

[tepples]

The books are NOT DRM'd. The entire system is strictly freely-licensed.

But if this projectd works in developing countries, the major publishers in developed countries will likely use the result to promote similar projects, except with oppressive DRM. You've all read "The Right to Read" by Richard Stallman, right?

Untested tech = snakeoil

[RobotWisdom]

1) No one has seen the magical lowcost screen yet

2) No one knows how the mesh network will work

3) No one knows how hard the batteries will be to keep charged

4) No one knows how usable the software apps will be

5) Nobody gets a refund if any of these wishful thoughts fall through

Re:Untested tech = snakeoil

[fullmetal55]

hence the 500 unit real-world test environment... if this was a 5 million unit deployment... I'd understand this post having validity... but this is a 500 unit deployment... a real-world test... I don't understand your getting irritated calling this "snake oil" because it hasn't been tested... well, this article is a bunch of propaganda about the product, based around the 500 unit test. don't call it snake-oil yet. let the real-world test go through its paces before you get defensive...

Re:Untested tech = snakeoil

[mspohr]

What a troll...

1) No one has seen the magical lowcost screen yet

Just because you haven't seen it, it must not exist.

2) No one knows how the mesh network will work

Mesh networks are common technology.

3) No one knows how hard the batteries will be to keep charged

How hard is it to keep your batteries charged? Lots of people in the developing world have electricity, generators, solar power, and yes, hand cranks.

4) No one knows how usable the software apps will be

Because you haven't "approved" them, they must not work.

5) Nobody gets a refund if any of these wishful thoughts fall through

These "wishful thoughts" are basic engineering tasks that a lot of people are working on... again... just because you haven't seen the solutions doesn't mean they don't exist. You could look at the project pages to get the answers if you weren't a troll.

Purchasing power parity

[tepples]

The minimum wage in Thailand is just below $100 per month. That's right, $100.

And the minimum wage in the United States is just below $900 per month. How much does an entry-level Windows notebook computer cost? What if the notebook computer of a student in such a developed country gets stolen or damaged?

Re:Purchasing power parity

[vision864]

in the developed world, the Sucks to be you / File an insurance claim rules apply.

Re:Free textbooks as a trial balloon for DRM e-boo

[mrchaotica]

They could, except I would expect the people behind the OLPC effort to refuse to sell the device to people who want to use it as a DRM'd ebook reader. Besides, if they wanted that then they could just ask Sony to make them one instead!

And yes, I have read The Right to Read. In fact, it's one of my favorite tools to explain DRM to people, and I've cited it on Slashdot many times myself.

Off-Topic Question but...

[erroneus]

Okay, assuming there's "book reader" software, I wonder if the book reader will enable "writing in the margins" or otherwise adding user notes. When translating from a paper book to electronic, that's one functionality that might disappear which is often rather useful at times.

Is there a repository of software to be loaded on these things somewhere? It would be interesting to see what goes into these things.

Re:Off-Topic Question but...

[danimrich]

When kids use books that belong to the school they aren't allowed to write in the margins either.

After work conversation...

[Mister Whirly]

"Hi honey. What a day. Do we have anything to eat?"
"Um, no, but we do have this ghetto laptop."
"Can you eat it?"
"No."
"That's great. Maybe we can look at pictures of food then."

Re:Free textbooks as a trial balloon for DRM e-boo

[falconwolf]

But if this projectd works in developing countries, the major publishers in developed countries will likely use the result to promote similar projects, except with oppressive DRM. You've all read "The Right to Read" by Richard Stallman [gnu.org], right?

One problem with this, why would any non/undeveloped country buy into and use closed systems with DRMed media when they can get Open sourced for less?

I read recently where in Africa a project is working that uses cheap computers and satellite receivers in education. The books are sent by satellite and are stored on the computers. This saves in more than one way, the printed books used were being replaced frequently for various reasons. They don't last long, and they need to be changed amoung others. But being able to download new material as it becomes available saves.

Falcon

"books will be found and can be read on computers"

[Digital_Mercenary]

"He said each student would get a free computer "instead of books, because books will be found and can be read on computers."

I hope they are not intending to do a way with books altogether...

Technology is great but hardly a replacement for books. Books are inexpensive in comparison, portable, random access memory (you can flip to any page), durable (harder to break then computers, sometimes there are printing errors but a book is never gonna give you a kernel panic or blue screen.

The $100.00 laptop sounds like a great tool for the students but hardly a replacement for books. If they try that this project will flop.

And the obvious...

[drumt]

Ebay auction: For sale - never used laptop. Limited run. Get yours now! Help feed my family.

$100 for laptop but $10000 for medical bill

[Anonymous Coward]

The laptop may cost $100, but the medical bill will be $10000 for the injuries suffered from an exploding laptop battery.

permanence of printed books

[falconwolf]

These objects are more permanent then an electronic copy. If a powerful group wanted to 'rewrite history', they could never destroy all of the old copies of these text. There are hundreds or thousands of copies of these same texts laying around in attics, closets and museums throughout the the US and Europe.

Tell that to the early Christian church. Sure it may be possible to find old books but then the authorities can do what the Vatican did when some old books of the early church were found at Nag Hammadi in the 1940s, they called them blasphemous.

Falcon

Re:"books will be found and can be read on compute

[Pasquina]

One book may be more portable than one laptop, but one laptop can store all of your books. You get one delivery and then download the rest of your materials for the rest of your education. I'd rather carry a laptop than a different textbook for math, english, history, science, etc, and I'd certainly rather spend $100 once than $85/book.

TCO? DRM?

[MarkByers]

I hate to use the term Total Cost of Ownership because certain companies have abused it so much, but have they considered how much the eBooks will cost? If they are doing this to save money the eBooks better be a lot cheaper than textbooks. In my experience DRM'd digital stuff can get very expensive, especially if you end up getting yourself locked into a single company's way of doing things and letting yourself get taken hostage by the upgrade cycle. Textbooks can last years but DRM can be disabled at any moment unless 'ransom money' is paid.

I think that the laptop idea is great but I just hope that they think it through carefully before buying otherwise there will be a lot of fallout from this, and then the usual suspects will be going on about how Linux has a high TCO.

Happening in the US

[maggard]

Maine?

Big state, northeast corner of the nation, not exactly a hippy-dippy/anything-goes/lets-try-new-things-for- the-heck-of-it/cost-means-nothing kinda place.

They've been putting laptops in the hands of their students for a few years now.

They're not alone, other school systems have done the same. Colleges too, many now require incoming students to have a laptop.

As to "force their students to deal with paper textbooks", that's mostly an artifact of the textbook publishers. Indeed many parents, educators, and medical folks, are getting worried about the burdon on students of carrying around their many textbooks and other supplies. They're starting to see kids suffering real medical maladies and moving to digital formats is something they look forward to.

Furthermore, I know Massachusetts has promised to buy into the Negroponte program, and several other states have expressed interest. However these are all on hold until a final prodoct is delivered and serious large scale ordering, and economies of scale, can take place.

Instead of depreciating other nations and their attempts to serve their children I think folks should indeed be wondering, and worrying, about what our own is nation doing for it's students, while at the same time recognizing improving education everywhere benefits the US. We're all better off when the next generation, everywhere, is more aware of the world they are inheriting and which we will all have to live in, trade in, and resolve issues in.

A rising tide does indeed float all boats.

Re:Happening in the US

[It's a thing]

"A rising tide does indeed float all boats."

That's a bad metaphor; when the tide rises on one side of the planet, it goes down on the opposite side.

Re:Happening in the US

[maggard]

That's a bad metaphor; when the tide rises on one side of the planet, it goes down on the opposite side.

No, yours is bad science.

Tides are (roughly) symetrical on both sides of the planet; therefore for high tides it's the halfway-inbetween parts that simultaniously (approximately) experience low tides. Learn more at Wikipedia

Metaphores aside I believe that education results in greater stability, greater productivity, and improved quality of life for everyone. Large inequalities have a habit of working themselves out - violently. Better customers lead to better products. And progress is a communal societal process, we all benefit from universal social suffrage.

Re:Happening in the US

[AxelBoldt]

when the tide rises on one side of the planet, it goes down on the opposite side.

Actually, there's a tide on the opposite side as well. But we get your point.

Teach them the fish and they will eat for life

[sarge apone]

It is easy to solve complex problems by throwing more aid at it, but long-lasting effects are an illusion and gather short-lived relief. Build capacity in a society to properly access and evaluate information, and they have the ability to improve themselves and their society more than just giving them water and food.

What worried me is the auto-reply of "We will have textbooks on the laptop" (which literally makes them a paper-weight) that is echoed from Thailand to every school district in the U.S. when it comes to justifying money for laptops. The reply should be "Every child will be able to learn at their own pace and present information in their own way. Our teachers will not be the keepers of knowledge and information, but facilitators to guide their students to gain knowledge and wisdom."

Me using a laptop to type my hand-written report into MS Word/OO Writer or copy/paste paragraphs from the Internet into PowerPoint/Impress is not improving education all that much.

Gratuitous monopoly granted by the UN

[amightywind]

Actually, the real models (ie: non-3d illustration) dont have cranks:

Some trick. Obtain a worldwide monopoly on a device that isn't fully designed. Only at the UN.

Re:Free textbooks as a trial balloon for DRM e-boo

[tepples]

Besides, if they wanted that then they could just ask Sony to make them one instead!

That's my point. If OLPC is successful, developed countries are more likely to try it themselves with Sony DRM reader devices.

LCDs are much easier on the eyes

[tepples]

I know when I read long pages on my computer if I don't read a printout of and read on the screen my eyes get sore and I get a headache. This is true with crts, I don't recall if it's true with lcds as I haven't used one in years.

Cheap LCDs are almost an order of magnitude nicer on the eyes than cheap CRTs. For one thing, LCDs don't flicker. For another, they're completely flat and have an antiglare coating.

Installation is the school system's job

[tepples]

Yes... and we're expecting people with little or no computer experience to install and configure this software... on Linux?

The OLPC laptop's Linux operating system, as well as the annotation and collaboration applications, will be preloaded by the time that the child gets one. Figuring out how to make a working install image is the job of the OLPC organization and the client school systems.

Eyestrain is a well-know phenomena among those who spend large amounts of time staring at a screen.

Studies using CRT, or studies using LCD? Studies using what kind of ambient lighting?

How about Dreams

[ghangas]

The viewpoint of problems with the program has been well covered so I will withhold my criticism.

Entrepreneurs and dreamers exist all over the world. How about giving really powerful self study tools to ambitious and energetic kids? I hold hope that families in Thailand and all over the world will recognize an opportunity like this and use it fully. I think this platform could give geniuses, dreamers, curious, and diligent an opportunity to accomplish the previously unthinkable. What percentage of the kids needs to respond to this medium ambitiously to affect the entire nation and improve the future?

In addition to not regarding the "poor" as desperate and hungry, be sure to not underestimate their intelligence and resourcefulness.

Re:How about Dreams

[Anonymous Coward]

Word! Just because people are poor doesn't mean they are unable to take advantage of opportunity. Putting a smart, ambitious kid in touch with something more than her home & village will probably pay dividends for decades, for both her and her family.

And regarding content: i don't think these kids are going to be buying crap off of audible.com, no? There are countless works of literature and non-fiction that are in the public domain (e.g., www.gutenberg.org), and vast amounts of valuable information free for the download. Even if the mesh concept doesn't pan out, there is so much that could efficiently be distributed to the users. Granted, spoiled first-worlders don't like reading off an LCD screen, but if your choice is between reading LCD and not reading, anyone with curiosity & drive will choose to learn.

Yes, some people will sell it, trade it for drugs, or use it as a doorstop. But consider how many scholarships blow $30,000 a year to send some dumbass kid to college to get drunk and stoned? I'm willing to take the good with the bad.

Re:where can I order mine? Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

On Ebay pretty soon.

Re:Free textbooks as a trial balloon for DRM e-boo

[mrchaotica]

First of all, there's no reason they couldn't do that now. Second, a Sony ebook reader is more expensive than one of these laptops (even without any subsidy). Aside from complete stupidity or publisher kickbacks, there's no reason for any school system to even consider it (which, of course, makes it all the more likely).

Of course, I still don't understand what you're getting at. Are you trying to say that we shouldn't support OLPC because it might give the proprietary dumbasses here stupid ideas?

The problem is the current trend of DRM

[DrYak]

If even a few people splurge on a $29.95 USB device and keep copies of every electronic text they're given, then changes in such things as the "official version of history" and the "current stance of the scientific establishment" can be tracked and compared with similar collections from around the world.

In theory, that's nice idea an that how stuff should be done.
The problem, is that, in practice this is going to be much more complicated. DRM (or Digital Restriction Management, as RMS calls it) is a nice exemple of a technology that is getting more popular in the industry each day. For the keeping by a few individual of the originals - as you suggest - to be useful, the data must be accessible. If the data is crypted by some stupid DRM scheme, a century later, when this data could be found again and should be used to study the past, the DRM keys or even the knowledge of the particular scheme may be long lost ago with the company that produced them. If the crypto algorithm is kept documented, maybe, by the time the historical backup is discovered, flaws in the algorithms will be known or brute force will be easily possible with future hardware (like Enigma). But maybe that won't be the case. Maybe future historians will be left puzzled with some data that looks like garbage and they don't have any clue how to decipher it.
Or maybe the data couldn't be copied in the first place. If the trend to enforce DRM "from-end-to-end" (like in the near future Vista will bring between the graphic card and the monitor, or between the softwares and the output of the sound card) with TCMP and whatnot gets popular, maybe the drive controller will just plain refuse to save "protected intellectual property" to a backup medium (this was already somewhat attempted in Sony's memory stick. The option also exist in the SD design, but was never user yet).

Format will be another complex stuff. If it data is saved using an obvious and/or documented format (be it file format or medium format), it may be retrievable in the future. On the other hand, if data is stored in some weird proprietary format, the ability to read it will be gone when the company designing it disapears, or even if the company decides to stop production and move to a newer format and/or medium. (The keeping of photography is a nice exemple : amateur photos are usually stored in JPEGs, a format that is quite well documented and for wich a lot of documentations and decoding libraries exist. It can be used years later to be visualised again. Given the abundant documentation, a decoder could be rewrotten in a future were the format has moved out of fashion but when picture must be viewed again for historical reasons. On the other hand, professionnal camera often use proprietary RAW formats. Documentation is poor or inexistant, multiple incompatible variants exist within the same brand or even within similar product series, company abandon support for older models and documentation about them is lots. All this leads to the fact that what is shot today in this format may not be viewable in the future, as critiqued by the openraw website) (Texts are another exemple. Old stuff typed decades ago on the first home computer, but that mostly consisted of ASCII Text may still be accessible today, as long as the data was regulary copied from one medium to another, to avoid rotten medium (I doubt audio tapes used back then are still in good shape today) and the lack of modern hardware (no more audio cassette produced today. On the other hand some popular and more modern word processor could have become graveyards if there wasn't enough reverse engeneering, specially given the fact that each version may introduce subtle incompatibilities with previous ones). (On the medium compatibility side of the question, the Domesday Project is a nice exemple of why you should try to avoid to lock yourself in a dead format like LaserDisc).

1984 did this, too

[SheeEttin]

past facts are easily changed to suit current attitudes

This was done in 1984 (the book, not the year). IIRC (mostly making this up, but this is the gist)...

Next, he decreased the number of shoes Big Brother predicted would be made from 6.8 million to 4.2 million, so that it would seem there was a huge surplus, rather than the underproduction there actually was. Millions of boots were produced on paper, while half the population of Oceania went barefoot.

It was better in the book.

Hank crank was replaced with Foot pedal

[GodWasAnAlien]

The new design used an external foot pedal that just plugged in as power.

The pictures are of the prototype. Isn't there a picture of a more recent model?

Re:Free textbooks as a trial balloon for DRM e-boo

[Eternauta3k]

One problem with this, why would any non/undeveloped country buy into and use closed systems with DRMed media when they can get Open sourced for less?

Closed source stuff is free too (arrr matey)

Closed source stuff is free too (arrr matey)

[falconwolf]

Because of DRM they aren't free. Sure it may be given away at first but once it's widespread then comes tyme to pay up when the company demands payment for continued use or for updates.

Falcon

Re:Closed source stuff is free too (arrr matey)

[Eternauta3k]

What part of "ARR, MATEY" didn't you get? Piracy! copying the software! cracking it to circunvent the time limit! jeez....

Re:Free textbooks as a trial balloon for DRM e-boo

[tepples]

Are you trying to say that we shouldn't support OLPC because it might give the proprietary dumbasses here stupid ideas?

No, I'm saying that everything has unforeseen consequences.

Fly up to the sky!

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> $100 Laptop Takes Flight in Thailand

Interesting choice of words. You're a poor, starving kid in a 3rd world country. Hmmm, laptop, or...sell laptop?

Yeah, what the hell ever, dude.

Printing??

[Six Feet Pete]

How are these kids going to print stuff. The price of ink is higher than the laptop!!

Re:Printing??

[It's a thing]

Why would you need to? Just save your work in a sticky directory.

Re:It's a trial run^H^H^HFFlight

[Pollardito]

my laptop flies just fine, but if this laptop is still useable after landing then i suppose that's an improvement

Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

About two days after delivery.

Re:"books will be found and can be read on compute

[It's a thing]

Although that seems like it's in good faith, it's bullshit.

You said deadtrees are...

• inexpensive. Deadtrees are ~50 USD each. I doubt the school would only teach one subject.
• portable. Once again, if you have more than one subject, the laptop wins.
• easy to navigate in. Can you search for text in less than a second on a deadtree?
• durable. They're less durable than a laptop. You can spill food/drink on a deadtree and a laptop. You could drop a deadtree and a laptop. But, you can't tear a page in a laptop.
• just as vulnerable to error. When was the last time Linux paniced when you weren't tinkering with it?

Also anyone whining about eye damage, see my signiture.

Re:"books will be found and can be read on compute

[LunarCrisis]

"Books are inexpensive in comparison (. . .)"

Then explain to me why the price of just one of my university text books is more than one of these $100 laptops.

Sounds like a damn good deal to me.

Re:where can I order mine? Ebay

[AxelBoldt]

On Ebay pretty soon.

Does Ebay deal in stolen goods? Because any OLPC machine sold on Ebay must by necessity be stolen, since the children won't own the machines.

Re:Free textbooks as a trial balloon for DRM e-boo

[Duds]

You've all read "The Right to Read" by Richard Stallman [gnu.org], right?

I would have but my copy had DRM.

Not eBook

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the government controls copyright and the use of these are for educational purposes, why would they be eBooks rather than HTML/DocBook/etc?

Just plain text, even.

Re:where can I order mine? Ebay

[Constantine Evans]

There seems to be some contradictory information on that. The OLPC Wiki's market FAQ seems to imply that the laptops will belong to the children, at least after they finish school.

Re:where can I order mine? - somewhat good news

[Constantine Evans]

I will have to take back my previous comments about there being no official talk about selling the machines commercially. The OLPCWiki discusses it here. Apparently, commercial sales as a subsidy are being considered, at around 3x the cost of the laptop (so around $400 to $500, probably).

DONT DROP IT!

[talledega500]

Ohh yeah that would be bad I dropped a book once. Then I picked it up

Re:"books will be found and can be read on compute

[Digital_Mercenary]

Good point. I just don't like the idea the laptop is the be all and end all of educational tools. computers can fail... then what .. what about all your work? Is each school gonna have a server with tape backup? I guess CD's and DVD's can remedy most of those problems... I don't know... it seems to easy to say "students don't need books anymore." I feel like theres more to it...

Oh well...