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Breaking Gender Cliques at Work?
An anonymous reader asks: "No-one likes finding themselves being the 'odd one out' of a clique, and gender barriers make them harder to break. The question is simple: what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers? Or inversely, what should groups of boys at work be doing to be more welcoming for that lone girl in the IT office?"
...nothing breaks down barriers like hearing someone from the opposite gender breaking wind.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
Get the guys castrated so they don't wet themselves and yell "OMG B00bIES!"
Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
I can already foresee the "Quit being nerds and actually try to talk to her" posts already.
:o
She won't bite.
Registered Linux user #421033
I would suggest getting a lawyer because you should be able to have several sexual harrassment suits on your hands, you won't need to work there much longer.
All kidding aside, I have worked several times where there was one girl who joined the crew. It never really made a difference to me, I didn't sit there with my other male co-workers and talk about how she didn't deserve to be here and had to prove herself worthy or anything crazy like that. I never did anything special to make her feel welcome, nor should I have had to.
I have been on the other side of it though, when I was hired as the only in-house developer for a company and I was pretty much the only guy in an office environment with about 10 ladies. I never really felt out of place, but I had to put on headphones to get any work done because all they did was yak and gossip all day...
I'd suggest throwing out random Monty Python quotes. The best one for this would be walking up to the guys and saying, "Nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean, know what I mean, say no more..."
This guy's the limit!
If you want to be social with the guys, talk about cool technology, fun video games, military hardware, or the latest in high horsepower vehicles. (Come on, if you're in technology, you should be interested in at least some of those topics?) That should allow the guys to relax a bit and forget that you're female. Worst case, stay on the job long enough and they'll get to know you.
What? I wasn't going to say anything. (AKAImBatman tries to look innocent.)
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
The question is simple: what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers?
Your male coworkers know that "shag the boss" (double points if she's a woman too), or "occasionally go topless" would actually be good tips, but their value is probably lost in the blazing glare of stereotype-validation. (shrug)
-Styopa
there's only 1 thing anyone can really do to break through cliques no matter what the gender boundries... be friendly. If you want to incorporate yourself into a boys only group, just be friendly and courteous. Try to find opportunities to make conversation and joke around. IT and computer people are usually introverted and aren't used to conversing with people of the opposite gender (and lots of times with people of the same gender) so it will be usually up to you to break that barrier.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
For the gals: Just show up. Us guys in IT will be more than happy to have some women around.
For the guys: Dont try and hit on the women, and they will hang around more often and for longer.
This all seems pretty obvious.
Perhaps there really is no clique. I mean, are they telling you they don't want to talk to you? Do they completely ignore you whenever you try to talk to them? Or is it just that they have completely different interests, and don't talk about the same things as you. If all the guys at work talk about the previous night's baseball game every day, then try to watch it, or at least the highlights, or at least figure out who played and what the score was. They're not going to stop talking about the game, or start watching Star Trek instead, just because one employee doesn't like baseball. Where I work, most of us have kids, and talk about them. However there's people who don't have kids, and probably feel left out of the conversations, but that doesn't mean the rest of us are going to change our conversations just to suit them. However, if they start up an interesting topic, there's no reason we won't join in.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Geek guys are intimidated by women. The really odd thing about it is that geek guys are more intimidated by women they are attracted to, but that their attraction does not match the general population. In other words, the women that geeks are most intimidated by are the ones that "normal" guys would be less intimidated by.
But as for the fix, be human. You won't be able to pull that one off without work. Find what they play, practice it, then invite everyone to a LAN party. If you don't want it at your house, it's perfectly acceptable (socially, check with your boss for employer rules) to have the LAN party at work after hours. If you host a LAN party of the game that everyone likes best with delivered pizza, you will go a long way towards being "one of the guys." And, I don't know how to say this, try, but don't look like you are trying. And yes, it is hard to integrate into any existing group, especially if there is something that identifies you as different.
Learn to love Alaska
At our workplace, we have a small-but-dedicated group of lunchtime gamers.
;-)
Over time, some of our female co-workers have joined us from time to time to play the games. They're usually nice and simple table-top games with straightforward game play and the like. The girls frequently enjoy themselves, as the games are not overly geeky, so even the non-tech females join in and play. We've had a few who could win some of the games fairly often.
Every game seems to develop it's own slang and silly sayings which correspond to some of the game events, which adds to the overall fun of the game for all involved.
We game because it's more interesting than having to actually have conversations which go much beyond the superficial. =)
I would definitely say table-top gaming can be a good way to include people -- though it kind of depends on having at least one board-game-geek to be the provider of the games. One of our member is constantly finding new games to play, and finding ones which fit well into a lunch-hour and have good game mechanics. I suggest Board Game Geek as a good starting point as it has a lot of resources and reviews. Some of the non-geek female co-workers have actually gone out and bought some of the games, and other gamers have started buying copies of them to play with their families on the evenings and weekends.
As far as how a guy breaks into a mostly female clique, I suspect most Slashdotters would desperately love to know that one. So if anyone has more insight into that general conundrum, tey should post it.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Cut off your hair and tape down your boobs. For supplemental camoflage, try quoting the simpsons, family guy, and various slashdot cliches.
They'll mistake you for one of their own and no longer be incapable of making eye contact or simple conversation with you.
Ugh, there's no need to focus on "gender issues". There are all kinds of "cliques" in this world and they aren't necessarily gender-based. (PS: why "boys" and "girl", is this kindergarden? How about "men" and "women").
Maybe you're just new, or you're smarter than them, or you're a different race, or you speak with an accent, or you have different skills, or maybe, you're just shy. Conversely, they might be scared of you! Sometimes guys in IT just have pretty bad social skills.
The first thing to keep in mind is that YOU are responsible for everything that happens to you. I know, this is kind of a foreign concept in our society, but bear with me here. If you want to be friends with your co-workers, you can. If you don't like your co-workers and you want a different job, you can make that happen too. If you want to change the culture in your office, become the CEO, or anything else, you are capable of it. Once you have this kind of confidence, making friends is easy. No need to blame something outside yourself ("gender clique") when you're perfectly capable of achieving whatever you desire.
I know that's a "big" answer to a "small" question, but there was a point in my life when I had a revelation along those lines and these kinds of "problems" just stopped happening to me.
For a specific answer, the best way to make friends with someone (or a group) is to to treat them like they are your friends and have been for a long time. Pretty easy!
So, let's assume these folks are your best friends. What do you do when you see them, say, together at lunch? You join them. You sit down and act as if it's totally appropriate to sit down and say hello, and you've been doing it for years. You have genuine interest in what they say, and you're eager to learn from them and appreciate whatever differences they have from you. You don't care what gender they are, and if they're cold or unreceptive, it's because you need to be a little more patient or try a little harder.
If for some reason they won't accept you as part of their social group, then that's fine too. You can just do your job the best you can, or better yet, leave and get a better job.
Think of some ideas along these lines, ways you can connect with your co-workers. Write them down, and then tomorrow, put them into action.
As for them, well, if they want advice they can Ask Slashdot themselves. You are the one asking the question.
This is the important question. A group of friends shouldn't have to change to accomodate someone - if someone wants to be a member, that person has to be the one to change.
I have found that girls mesh very easily with the boys, provided:
1) The girl isn't ditzy or an airhead. Now, a girl in IT is highly unlikely to be this way, but smart guys tend to like to be around other smart people.
2) A lot of guys don't like the girls around because they feel really uncomfortable that they might say "the wrong thing", and the next minute they are having a "sensitivity training" session with Human Resources. Don't be emo. Please. Take a joke for what it is - a joke - instead of taking it personally. Bonus points for telling a few yourself, it will help us relax.
3) Give it some time. Like anyone new to a group, there is going to be some discomfort while everyone figures out what kind of person you are.
4) Feminism is okay - Feminazi-ism is not.
5) If someone does something totally inappropriate - you know what I mean - feel free to follow the chain of command and get the other person in trouble. Don't go overboard though. There is nothing worse than someone who takes every little thing out of context in an attempt to be the victim.
At the last company I worked, there were two females hired in an otherwise all male IT department. One was something of a tomboy and she was instantly accepted as part of the group. GREAT sense of humor. The other was one of those types that would whine to HR the minute she thought something "inappropriate" was going on (and, honestly, it never was - we were pretty well behaved there). She ended up being the one noone talked to unless it was necessary - but, somehow, it was OUR fault.
That said, boys and girls ARE different. I don't see anything inherently wrong with single-gender groups. It's natural.
Love sees no species.
Though I'm not a computer scientist I am a mathematician, another field inhabited by nerds with a large ratio of men to women. While there are definatly tensions created by this ratio I have never seen the men try to exclude girls or form a clique and not let them in. However, often shyness or lack of social skills will be interpreted by a more socially competent girl as a form of exclusion.
So if you are a girl I sugest just going up to them and being friendly. Likely what seems like exclusion is really just fear of talking to a girl or fear of looking like they are trying to pick you up. Often the prettier the girl the more she will intimidate the guys and the less likely they are to initiate conversation. Also remember that many nerds dispense with conversational niceities and tend to just launch directly into subjects they are comfortable with in conversation.
Going the other direction the big thing to avoid doing is glooming the girl, that is making yourself overly friendly and following her around in the hope that she will like you and start dating you. It won't work and it will make her uncomfortable around her. If you want to pick up a girl in this sort of situation be friendly but do so in reasonable doses and don't push yourself on her. Leave when the conversation naturally dies and if she seems to be recipricating your interest you can ask her out but don't follow her around just because she is nice to you.
In other words treat the girl as just another one of the guys. Don't worship her and don't ignore her.
Unfortunatly the biggest reason for gender tension I have seen is the catch-22 many tech girls find themselves in of wanting to be polite to nice but clueless nerds and fending off advances. Often this can make girls feel like they are under seige and make spending time with their male colleagues feel like walking through a mine field. Most nerd girls just want to be one of the guys (figuratively) and not have to worry about akward advances.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
There are certain No-Nos when it comes to IT guys.
1. Don't dress like a skank. It will remind them of girls they've seen in pornos, and they will be unable to speak (let alone think) in your presence. They also won't take you seriously or want to be your friend because you have presented yourself as out of their self-esteem league.
2. Don't talk about their interests if you don't want to hear their opinion. Don't start a conversation about Dungeons & Dragons unless you've brought your dice and have your character already started. Don't bring up William Shatner unless you want to talk about the differences between Star Trek III vs. Generations.
3. Don't pretend to know something you don't. If you try to debate the pros and cons of Linux when you've never even used it, these guys will know. These guys are the ultimate IT-lie detectors. It only takes one question to discover you know nothing about something you claimed to.
4. Don't take on the nerdiest guy and try to "break his shell." That shell has taken years to build up: years of bullying and swirlies, years of pirating software and music, and years of being pushed and locked in lockers. Puberty has destroyed their self-esteem, and you pushing to get to know them is going to make them crazy.
The big yes's:
1. Be yourself. The age-old adage rings true once again. The more exposure they get to a normal girl the better they will be with other girls.
2. Be approachable. Put a nice sign on your door reminiscent of the websites they frequent. "Come in and get to know me." "Send me an email if you want to chat." "Hi, I'm Audj."
3. Bring food. Cookies, pizza, and caffinated soda will make instant friends.
4. Be nice. If they're annoying, take a deep breath and say kindly, "Oh really?" Continue the conversation and remember that you're doing women around the world a favor by introducing them to the female gender.
hmm ... ok, i'm a female in programming and, as such, generally the only female programmer where i work. i've occasionally worked places where there's been one other female. anyway, i've never noticed any discomfort or "clique-ishness" in getting along, really. just the normal "i'm the new 'guy' and we're all a little shy" thing. since we're all geeks, we all tend to have at least some interests in common and so have things to talk about/bond over. now, when i worked game dev it was less comfortable being the girl, for some reason, but maybe it's just harder being the new guy there and not a gender thing at all. generally (in 'normal' software dev) i've never felt any issues from my coworkers. places where we're likely to not hit it off tend to be around politics and stuff like that, not gender differences.
i will say, though, the one annoying thing i've encountered is management. for some reason every place i've worked where there's been another female programmer, management seems to think the two of us would just LOVE to sit next to each other. every. single. time. "let's put the girls together!!" sheesh. like we'd automagically be bff and braid each other's hair or something. i usually don't even get along all that well with other girls (we don't seem to have much in common), so this chafes.
I suggest breaking the ice with a good joke, like:
Q.) What's the definition of a macho man?
A.) Someone who shaves his balls with a weed wacker
or for the opposite gender:
Q.) What's the definition of a macho woman?
A1.) She suck-starts her Harley.
A2.) She kick-starts her vibrator.
A3.) She rolls her own tampons.
or my personal favorite, always a hit with a ladies:
Q.) How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A.) (preferably delivered interupting the other party) That's not funny!
These jokes are gauranteed to make an impression on the opposite sex.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Men and Woman just don't realize how differently we view the world sometimes.
Well, ok, Woman don't understand how Men view the world sometimes. Men on the other hand do have a vague instinctual understanding of how to not piss a woman off and number one on that list is "Keep your distance until you get a signal."
and boys should bathe once a week, even if they don't need it, to welcome the IT chick.
I had woman co-worker who insisted everyone goes out to lunch and sit together at the same time. That was cool. After she left for a job closer to home, everyone went back to their old ways.
...to add to this comment. You should rarely attribute malice to a lack of male interaction. It typically only occurs in those groups which are "girlie" men - those particularly proud of their looks or physical prowess (ie - those which act more like females in their social interactions). As Batman said, find some common interests with your coworkers. Look for an excuse to go out to lunch with the group, even if you don't say much. Personal connection is all you need to make to be accepted most of the time. If you must, bring in some "trinket" that you feel might be a common interest - novel, magazine without "orgasm" or a photograph of any hollywood star printed on the cover, electronic item with "geek" quality. iPods don't count.
A word of warning, though - do not go outside your comfort zone. If you're not a Monty Python fan, don't quote them. If you don't get jazzed over hot rods, don't discuss 'em. Don't take up golf just to get in the mix if you're not an athelete.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I'm the only girl (and the team lead) in an all-male IT department. I've honestly never had any issues; it really does tend to be the women who are more cliquish than the men. In my experience, the best bets are:
1) Never flirt. It's just bad news all around,and encourages the office males to view you as a sexual being instead of a coworker. Not good.
2) Be friendly and just hang out. Go for coffee if they ask, invite everyone out for after-work beers. Ask if anyone's going out for lunch so you can all go somewhere together.
3) Be good at what you do. Do your work with care and deliver what you promise. Nothing helps break down barriers in the office like proving your worth.
4) Don't try to bullshit your way past someone who knows more about a given area than you do. One of my team members runs circles around me when it comes to java, I kick his ass at perl; it's all give and take, and we both know it. I give him the respect he deserves for that and don't try to pretend to know more than he does about java, and he does the same for me. Though, I think this goes regardless of gender.
Having said that, there are still areas of discrimination out there. The most telling comment I got was from the HR rep that hired me for my current contract. Her comment was something along the lines of "When I ask the guys if you're any good, they just say 'Yes, she really knows her stuff. She's good at what she does.' I knew that meant you were exceptional, because they didn't qualify it with 'Yes, she's good, for a girl.'"
The fact that there's still that kind of mentality in some places is just disheartening.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
I think I must break something to women readers (I know, all two of them ...):
... complicated, isn't it?
;)]
You will *never* be "one of the guys".
The men may find you attractive. They may not find you attractive. They may or may not do anything with either reaction (other than mentally note it) but a reaction *will* be there.
There will be potential awkwardness and problems (and, of course, potential joys) that simply don't exist between coworkers of the same gender. That's just how it is.
None of this, of course, means that you can't be great friends and coworkers, have a great working relationship, etc. But that phrase ("one of the guys") always worries me. If the guys at work are telling dirty jokes to you / with you (and you are going along with because you want to be "one of the guys") they aren't experiencing it the same way as when they tell dirty jokes with the guys. They're getting an extra thrill out of talking dirty with a woman. Bonus points because she doesn't even realize it. Extra bonus points if you are unavailable or married.
Of course, the ones who seem the least uncomfortable or awkward, *by the "one of the guys" standard*, are the ones smoothest at fooling you
But what do I know, I'm just an old-fashioned fossil who thinks that women should be treated with extra decency and respect. It's precisely because of that that I am not going to pretend that they are "one of the guys".
[Now a bunch of guys are going to post that this is bunk, it's just me, that *they* can see you as just one of the guys. Take careful note - they're the ones you need to watch out for!
Golf... Athlete?
Deleted
You cannot (legally) be accused of sexual harassment for asking a co-worker out, whether its with a group or for a private date.
Actually, asking co-workers out on dates is forbidden by many corporate anti-harrassment policies. Sometimes the policies specify that multiple requests for dates is an act of harassment; other places that I've worked just mentioned that liasons between co-workers are frowned upon as a matter of professionalism.
So, you might not go to jail, but you might be fired for it. Adherance to HR's policies is usually a contractual obligation, after all; and they all frown upon dating co-workers.
I've been that one woman in the office of men before and from what I've learned you are probably not nearly the outsider you imagine you are. Most geeks whether male or female share a lot of interests, so just be patient and be yourself. Probably the biggest thing they want is reassurance that if someone slips and says something "off-color" it won't result in some sort of "clamp down". If you can just be a geek among geeks everything will be fine, but it takes a little time to establish that.
Caveat Utilitor
Have you ever seen an athelete and a non-athelete try to pick up golf? The athelete will probably have a handicap in the mid-teens by the end of the first summer of casual play, the non-athelete will take three years of casual golf to break 100, if they ever do.
Playing golf is not atheletic like running triathalons requires, however it does require a certain amount of strength, flexibility, and body control to play well. At least, well enough not to make a fool of yourself in front of coworkers.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Yes, and it's exactly the kind of mentality that's promoted by sexist ("affirmative action") hiring practices. I mean, the entire basis for affirmative action is that certain identifiable groups are inherently disadvantaged when it comes to performing certain jobs, and that those groups require "help" from society.
To support affirmative action while criticizing the mentality that is its rationale is hypocritical. (I'm not accusing you specifically of this.)
http://outcampaign.org/
Then what in the ring-tailed rambling fuck are you doing here on Slashdot? If it doesn't run Linux, go "beep", "bang", or "vroom", we're not interested in it.
> Additional information: I'm male, software engineer.
Every engineer should have a wife and a mistress. He can tell his wife he's spending the night with his mistress, and tell his mistress he's spending the night with his wife, and finally have enough peace and quiet to get back into the lab and get some fracking work done!
I don't think there's any one particular difference between men and women in the workplace just because it's "IT", and the department is all guys and one girl, or vice versa. I've been in both situations, and in both situations it only matters whether you can suck it up and be a person and get over your own machoism or feminism enough to just relate to other *people*.
So, if you're the only girl in a group of guys at work, stop whining and worrying about what they must think of you. You're a girl, and as such you need to realize that most dudes really don't overanalyze every word, smirk, and tone of voice used in conversation. You girls tend to do that, generally, but us guys don't tend to do that, so stop worrying so much about it!
If you're the only dude in a group of females at work, don't try to worry about who said what like your female coworkers will tend to do. Don't be a flaming a--hole with your machoism, but instead realize that you're gonna have to be a bit more empathetic, a bit more caring, and a bit more nurturing than you would around your buddies while playing poker.
And to all the others that say "be friendly", I agree, but take it one step further - be-friend others. Don't just act nicey-nice to others to "break in" to their group. Actually be their friend.
...what is even more interesting is that the question was posed to slashdot users who are the very people that are seemingly incapable of having valid "normal" relationships. I mean, after all, most of the people here work in the IT/Computer Sciences industries and therefore would be the exact demographic the poster is referring to when questioning the social motivation of similar personalities in a group.
Anyway, irony aside, the problem is not limited souly to gender differences. People are intimidated and fearful of what they don't understand. If you are new to a group/department, you are not understood by existing members of said group. Therefore, it is not unreasonable at all to expect to be met with a certain level of trepidation towards interaction on a non-professional/work related level.
That being said, there are certain stigmas related to sexual harrassment in the work place and many guys have either experienced the short end of that stick first hand or known someone who had that luxury. The stigma comes from many of those incidents being unjustified or unfairly accusatory. The bigger problem lies in the fact that many, many guys out there have no confidence in HR or managements ability to decipher the clues as to what really happened and treat those involved fairly. What ends up happening is some poor schlub gets shafted because some girl turned on the waters works and put the fear of lawyers into management. So they do what they think they need to do to avoid an embarrassing public display which could affect the bottom line. Said guy goes down in flames and his co-workers hold a vigil for him at a local bar and one more chapter of G.R.O.S.S. forms and the stigma of girls in the workplace expands.
Is it fair? No, not necessarily but you can't blame people who are often pegged as being "annoying" or "socially inept" or "misunderstood" for being gun-shy in the face of such a situation. I have seen it happen and unfortunatly the good, talented and skilled girls pay for the poor behavior of the less desireable co-workers.
What can you do to get past that stigma? No need to be crude and discuss genitalia of either gender. You're defintly not a guy so don't act, dress, talk or behave like one. Don't even have any silly ideals, crusades or over-bearing group building efforts.
Simply be yourself. You want to be part of "the guys" then understand this. The only thing "the guys" are is a group of friends with common interests. The comfort zone doesn't come from those common interests but rather from the fact that they have been working together longer and have probably had some high stress situations where they had to put out a "fire" so to speak or meet an impossible deadline that required long hours. Those periods of high stress really show who's worth what and create bonding experiences because they all know they can rely on each other. It's got nothing to do with whether you have twigs and berries or not so don't make it about that.
Do what they all did. Be yourself, behave the way you would with your female friends. Certainly don't go with the gender specific stuff but when you are all talking about a song you like or a car you like or a restaurant you like, you are doing what the guys are doing. They just use different words and mannerism. Also, being yourself is important. Don't blend in, group dynamics thrive on diversity, not similarities. You bring something to the table that no one else can, YOU! So be you, you're the best one at being you. If you try to be someone else, you will never be as good at that.
Lastly, step up, learn your job and do it the best you can. If they ask for people to stay late to help with a project, volunteer. If they have a difficult project that no one wants to do, volunteer. If you see a problem that you have experience with fixing, get with someone, share your ideas and make it work. If you make yourself part of the professional team you will become part of the non-professional team...whether you like it or not.
Above all, HA
and take off your shirt.
Which is that all that has to happen is the person has to "feel uncomfortable" -- that's it. It doesn't matter why they felt uncomfortable, whether misunderstood something they overheard, or even if their reaction makes any sense. When you set the bar that low (and we're approaching the Orwellian "thought crime"-level here in the States) a guy has every reason to avoid any interaction with women in the workplace.
I myself go out of my way to avoid eye contact with female employees when walking down the hallway. I do not attend group social events where women will be present, nor will I sit at a table in the breakroom where women are sitting.
They may feel ostracized or unwanted, but that's their bad luck. I have a family to support and a life to live.
According to Ms Magazine, nothing breaks the ice for a woman at work like wearing a halter top, an ass tat, and short-shorts.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Want to get along with "the boys", then act just like one of the boys. I've seen this work for my old girlfriend, who was fairly outgoing and not too attractive. It might not work if you are overly attractive, as geeks tend to be nervous around really good-looking members of the appropriate gender. I also worked with a very attractive software engineer at Intel (Hi Stacy!) who made a point of mentioning her boyfriend whenever we got into non-technical discussions; it helps to put others at ease if they know you're already spoken for. Other than that, if you're not fitting in, it's probably because you're holding yourself apart from others, not because they don't want to be your friend.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
A lot of posts have mentioned thing about worries due to sexual harassment problems. The 2 most well adjusted females in our IT department have managed to fit in pretty well pretty quickly. Whether intentionally or more likely just because of their nature they made it very obvious where they stood on sexual harassment issues. Some dirty jokes, lots of hanging out and BSing and it became pretty evident what you could or couldn't do.
Make it obvious, or even flat out state it. I will be annoyed and speak with you first if you do ??? and if you don't stop, I'll bring it up with management. If you do ??? It's going to management right away. Draw your line in the sand on what you will and won't accept. Some people think boundaries were made to be broken, but most of us are pretty content as long as we know where we stand and what we can get away with safely.
On a similar note, never date a co-worker, especially in the same department. I've seen it happen many times, and only once it didn't end very badly for everybody involved. It can hurt your career.
On a more general note, just be yourself. Find out what the cliques are, I'm probably in the gamer, geek, jetskiier & IT guys who have been around a long time cliques (each one has at least 1 female that I'd include as part of the clique). In each of the cliques, I have something in common with the other members, and more often than not we end up talking about stuff relating to the clique.
You may or may not end up having anything in common with the cliques, and it's probably best to not force yourself into them. If people are a gearhead clique, and your not at all into automotive stuff, trying to hang out with them will just end up making you feel like a 3rd wheel to both sides.
Find people who have something in common with you, often just being a fellow IT person can be enough. Be yourself, and let people know who you are and where you stand.
There aren't cliques here people. The fact is, in my opinion, that men and women aren't going to be friends unless they're courting. Personally, I have no interest in forming a "friendship" with a woman unless I'm attracted to them. I'll be personable and try to make them feel comfortable, but in actuality, they're simply the other gender. I suppose the exception here may be sexuality. Dan
Anything can, could, and will happen.
Kanga: That's not a fish, that's a bird.
Pooh: Yes, but is it a starling or a mackeral?
If you're a woman in an all guy enviroment, just be the first one to tell an off-color joke. That usually breaks the tension enough that it's pretty easy from there on out.
My biggest complaint with my female co-workers has been a total unwillingness to put in any overtime, work on any extra projects, etc. The usual excuse always has something to do with their kids - picking them up, taking them to practice, etc. Seriously, is it going to kill your husband if he has to be the one to take Suzie to band practice one night out of how many months? Since they don't really carry their share, they are seen as second string contributors by most of my male colleagues. I have to admit that in many ways I seem them in the same light.
Then when they get passed over for promotions, plum assignments, etc. they get bitter and resentful. Since I've always been willing to do what needs doing to get the job done, I get a lot of respect from my male counterparts and superiors. If something's broken, I'm staying until it's fixed. I work pretty hard to make sure that nothing's going to be broken, but hey, stuff happens. Patches don't always perform as expected. Maybe the router needs to be rebooted. It doesn't really matter what the problem is, but if it's genuinely mission critical, I'm not going home until it's back on line.
Because of this, I'm a frequent recipient of bonuses, very positive performance appraisals, interesting projects, etc. I've had to deal with some female colleagues who were unhappy because they got passed over and I didn't. They would have liked to be able to file a complaint with HR that they were being discriminated against because of gender, but since so many of the things they wanted went to me, they could not. I actually got into a shouting match with one of them because I got an assignement she wanted. She made some accusations about favoritism and had no idea that her turning into a pumpkin promptly at 3pm, no matter what else was happening, was costing her. She thought that it was because I went outside and smoked with all the guys. That had very little to do with it. I got invited to go out and smoke with the guys precisely because I was "one of the team" and not "one of the candya$$&$". I tried to explain to her that if she'd just stick around or work an overtime assignment once in a while, it would go a long way toward smoothing things over for her, but she didn't want to hear it.
Instead of her own bad behvior, she made a bunch of accusations that ended up with her getting fired. She complained that I was getting favorable treatment when she was just a competent (which she wasn't - she made a lot of high profile mistakes including knocking out our external connection), doing the same work (which she wasn't - system operator vs. network administrator), and doing just as good a job (which she wasn't - HR said that the performance reviews were "no comparision"). After a few interviews with our co-workers, HR decided that she was the one with the problem and asked me if I'd like to file a complaint about her creating a hostile work environment (the whole incident where she cornered me in the women's bathroom and screamed at me - so loudly and so long that several other employees came into the restroom to find out what was going on). After consulting with my boss, I decided that it was probably best that I file the complaint. You cannot imagine how surprised she was when she was the one that got fired. Sadly, it only got worse from there because I started getting threatening phone calls from her husband. I called the police, filed a complaint, and they got arrested.
Frankly, a lot of the women I work with really make me angry because they give the rest of us a bad name. They want all the gravy, but they don't want to pay the dues to get it.
2 cents,
QueenB
HDGary secures my bank
"The question is simple: what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers? Or inversely, what should groups of boys at work be doing to be more welcoming for that lone girl in the IT office?"
;)
I am one of those IT rarities - a female. And from my experience, this is my attempt to answer the question.
If you are a woman on the outside of the clique you are there for one of two reasons: Either these are men that don't believe a women can't perform in this field or they simply don't know how to respond to women, seeing as they are so frequently (sarcasm) working with them. If you are on the outside for the first reason, chances are you won't win them over at all, but if you do, it will be by showing them you know what you are doing and that you are not a bumbling, ditzy 'girl' hired to fill a quota. In this day and age though, I would hope it is the latter. Don't try to join the clique just to join the clique; do it because you have common interests and could actually have conversations with these guys on the same level. If you are trying to get in, maybe you should approach the group about doing lunch. If you feel isolated, then try to do something about it. If it fails, well at least you tried. You can't rely on them to approach you.
To the men - if she is an IT 'girl,' chances are she is not like most women anyways. I have actually found that I share more opinions with men than I do women. I myself tend to see many women as annoying, and ditzy and overtly obsessed with shopping and with whom I have nothing in common. However, the women I have met in my field, tend to be different. They are less petty and easier to talk with and who actually know their s***. If you get any impression she is like me, she should be easily approachable and easy to include in the group. Despite many previous posts to the contrary, chances are she wants to be treated as "one of the guys". And you may be suprised to find out, that its not that hard to do.
On the other hand though, being women in a male-dominated field does put some on the defensive (as the lawsuits would imply). I would have to agree with most of the previous posts about approaching her as a group or sending out the e-mail to do lunch. Lunch is a great ice breaker. If I was worried about being hit on, I would feel less intimidated by this approach. And to women in this position - calm down. Not every guy who approaches you is trying to get in your pants. Even though I am sure the thought may have crossed their mind at least once.
People on both sides of this gender thing just need to lighten up. Learn to relax. Thats probably a key thing to trying to include yourself/'the girl' in the group.
Any time you're the newbie in the group, it takes a while to figure out the social situation and build relationships with people, and while we should have gotten over this as a society, I suppose that's still harder if you're female. Sigh. Working with more mature people usually helps, and working with geeks can be ok if you're the type that shares geeky interests. Fortunately, as a newbie in an organization, there are *lots* of things to initiate conversations with people about if you need an excuse to do that, ranging from what's going on with your projects to where the staplers are to how the bureaucracies work to where people go out for lunch.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I have a wonderful and, thus far, apparently foolproof system: I'm from another culture.
Them: "We think you interacted inappropriately with that female."
Me: "In my culture, that's entirely appropriate. Is this a race thing? Are you singling out my very respectful 'English' behavior as inappropriate in your American workplace?"
Them: "Oh, shit. We could get sued for that, couldn't we? Pretend we said nothing."
It's much like patent law. Companies patent stupid crap they don't really need to patent simply so that when the next company sues them, they have something they could counter sue over and they know they'll both agree to back off in exchange for shared patents.
As I am of a different race, so long as I'm basically polite, cases where fear-of-getting-sued prompts people to freak out over my being male and talking to females can be just as quickly quashed by their equally over inflated fear of an English employee suing over cultural insensitivity and racism.
99% of sexual harassment stupidity isn't motivated by actual lawsuits so much as fear of lawsuits. If I genuinely commit sexual harassment, I expect to get disciplined for it. On the other hand, if people want to freak out about possibilities, I'll give them other possibilities that are just as scary to push them back the other way.
As a woman in IT, i can't say I've had any trouble with male "cliques". I'm also surprised by those stories about sexual harassment accusations which is something I've never encountered or even heard of over here in Europe.
/msgs to do so as opposed to suffering the humiliation of having a girl tell them how to debug their C progams in public. Approximately the same thing happens in the workplace. The main problem with people not talking about your skills publicly is that, this way, you're getting little public credit for your achievements.
One thing that is true is that guys usually view their female co-workers as less competent. They go to great lengths to explain simple things to you over and over again as if they doubted your ability to comprehend basic technical matters. In general, males also tend to be over-helpful, trying to do things for you they assume to be too complicated for a woman. "This part is tricky, it needs to be written in assembley language, we'll give it to someone else" combined with a knowing smile isn't something most male programmers would hear very often.
My usual reaction to this is to turn down the entire contract offer.
On a positive note though, once you've worked together for some time, respect for your abilities does eventually turn in. However, it is rarely shown in public. It's more like <whisper>hey, you're good</whisper>. I'm a long time regular on various technical IRC channels, and while guys on those channels do seek my help with tricky problems, they mainly use private
For starters, referring to them as girls and boys is not a good start. Shows an unprofessional bias on the part of the submitter.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
This is a total and utter red herring. Your gender is irrelevant. I've seen males and females not fitting in, because they didn't fit in. This is an issue of culture.
I'm in the opposite situation... I'm a science/technology teacher at middle school that has 44 teachers. Only seven are male. Fortunately, they accepted me pretty quickly (I have sisters, so it wasn't that hard to be "one of the girls"), and I've gotten to like being the only male around most of the time. Once I got used to it, it's a pretty good situation actually. Lots of dating advice from lots of big sisters...
My tip? If you're a guy working in a group with all guys and one female, DON'T use your meeting time to show your groupmates some porn you thought was "really awesome." I wish I could say I was joking, but this actually happened to me (the only saving grace is that this happened when I was still in school, not at work, but still).
Fitting in when you're a girl in an all-male environment can be tougher than a lot of guys would think, especially if you're not used to being "one of the guys." In my experience, it's easier to be "one of the group" if you eat lunch with your co-workers or go to happy hour with them. If they don't invite you directly but you hear them talking about it, then fish for an invitation. Be friendly and social.
The bonus is that there usually are other girls present at happy hour unless it's just your group going, so you don't get that weird "I'm the only girl here and they're all acting weird because of me" feeling. Be prepared that you may have to subtly move the topic of conversation away from sports.
Guys: be friendly to the new hires, whether they be female or male. Despite what you may think, you can say "hi" to your female co-workers without quaking in fear of a sexual harassment lawsuit. Just stay away from the porn, and you're good.
Because it shouldn't be. Do your thing, be yourself. Computer nerditry is predominantly male, but being a geek is a gender-neutral lifestyle. There will always be some work environments that are better able to handle the "not like us" members of the team, whether gender-wise, or age-wise, or race-wise. What i've seen, though, is that teams that treat women poorly treat almost everyone poorly, and it's usually a sign to get the hell out.
It's not like there is some magic bullet for female geeks. A woman in IT may just as likely be a fish out of water with the Cosmo-reading stereotype that is outlined by our esteemed cohorts here, and totally able to relate to the dorkiness of whatever band of computer misfits might be around. It's not like every woman born onto this planet is replete with all of the social graces just because she's female. So, be a dork. Or dorque.
If you're looking for other women in computer-related fields to chat with, try Systers, Linuxchix, search meetup, whatever. Practice talking to other tech people like colleagues, regardless of gender, and it will become easier to interact with your coworkers. And there are thousands of conversation topics for IT people that have nothing to do with ribaldry or innuendo. Don't become the office cruise director, the instigator of dumb things like "let's celebrate birthdays each month", or crochet cozies for the headsets (unless they're amigurumi). I'm guessing those sorts of things don't come naturally to you anyway. I'd want to punch someone who wanted to make a thing out of celebrating birthdays and it showed up on my calendar. Spontaneous confectionary combustion is another matter.
For the posters here who complain about being afraid of being hauled to HR for naughty jokes, you should be. It's a workplace, not a locker room. Remember the locker room? Where the football player peed on you and laughed? Yeah. Keep your lame jokes for some other time.
So, essentially, meet them halfway. Be friendly, start conversations, don't judge their social shortcomings. Don't act like a victim, and don't take any crap either. It's a big world out there, there are a lot of jobs, there are a lot of assholes, and there are a lot of good people. The good ones will make you want to stay at a job that essentially sucks and the assholes will drive you out of your dream job. The trick is to know which is which, and not lose sight of what got you into IT in the first place. One batch of self-involved coworkers does not a career make.
Good luck
--mandi
my birthday is in october. i put it on your calendar
Then again maybe some men need to move the center of their attention from their groin to their brain.
It's funny how much I hear this from women who have no idea what it's like to be men. Did you know that, unlike you who become sex-craving (to be frank but polite about it) during a biological cycle or due to emotional stimuli, men's hormones flow all the time. Many of us would really prefer our eyes not be drawn away by the sight of a woman's torso, but that's the way our biology works. We're programmed to seek out and recognize possible mates. We only view women as sex objects if they appear to want us to view them that way, or if we truly are unusually chauvinistic.
Now however, I shall turn the onus back upon you. Dress to work, not to arouse! If you don't, you have no excuse with which to blame us for our captivity to biology. How can you dress for work? I have a simple heuristic definition for you: if the average male can look at you without losing his concentration to your body or becoming sexually aroused, you're decent. No need for ankle-length dresses or burquas.
I've heard women say that showing cleavage is just what makes them comfortable. I for one call that feminine wankage and won't put up with it. I shouldn't be looking at your body, because it shouldn't be exposed.
1) Have something good, mildy interesting, and not controversial to say about each of the members of your group. "This is Brian, he has two young children, his hobby is sailing; he is our manager." "This is Steve. He is an accomplished latin-guitar player, and is the senior admin on our team." "This is Joy. She is an avid hiker, recently adopted a Welsh Corgi, and is in desktop support." This kind of banter leaves the new person some clues of what they can talk about in later conversations.
2) Educate youself on the shit-stupid phrases our language is mined with. Use "guidelines" intead of "rules of thumb", etc. Read a bit about languages, cultures and the like. People are much less uncomfortable when you have a rough idea where they are coming form.
3) Preconceptions about poeple are usually wrong, and are often less interesting than reality. You're better off without them.
4) If things went well, say something. "You did an excellent job on this." "We have a great team." "You rock." etc.
5) In my experience, there are still appropriate times and ways to say: "I like your dress." or "Those shoes are cool." or "I like your new haircut." or "You look sharp in that suit." If you're genuine, people will know you're not being a prick.
6) Misery loves company. If you happen to get an IT-gal in your group, keep the door open for a second. People play off of each others strengths, and people who are less isolated do better. This isn't survivor, you won't end up with an axis of evil or anything.
7) Help people outside of the old boys network. Doing so will make you flexible, build personal networks, and make for a strong position. And when unimaginative managers go looking for poeple to sack, you won't fit an easy category. If you do get sacked, you'll be in better shape to work a diverse customer base as a contractor.
8) Don't be afraid to work with a hottie. In a week you'll know at least one thing you hate about them, and then they won't intimidate you anymore. Besides, if they're on your side of the table, the people on the other side will be distracted and easier to maneuver.
9) If you don't know the gender of a name, ask a third party ahead of time.
10) Don't make assumptions about wanting, having, being able to have, or liking children. Not everyone wants to, is, is able to be, or likes being a breeder.
I say Bullshit. You don't want to be accused of sexual harrasment? More like you're afraid of the embarassment of being rejected. Grow a fucking pair. Everybody's telling you don't do this, don't do that. And you obey. You listen. Is it making you happy?
I say fuck that. I say I do whatever I feel like, whenever I feel like it, all the time. You gonna get fired if you hit on some hot blonde? They gonna ostracize you? You gonna be disappeared? Instead of you being afraid of everyone, they should be afraid of you.
As for you lone IT girl.
Are you hot? Didn't think so. You're of no use to me or anyone else. "Please help me everyone! I don't know how to make friends." You're pathetic. If you did a little exercise, and dyed your hair blonde maybe people would notice you. But you can't. That's why you are who you are. But hey, these people that you want to be friends with, they're probably assholes anyway. Don't sweat it.
I initiate conversations, take a no-shit stance when meeting someone I haven't met before, and have no problem calling department meeting. I can talk sports when the topic's not work, and throw out bitingly sarcastic remarks with the best of 'em. In other words, I don't act like a meek little girl standing in a corner with my toes pointed inward all shy and waiting to be noticed. I basically act like a more feminine version of one of the guys without sacrificing my femininity. I dress very girly and am a lady in manners, though more masculine in mannerisms. It's a balancing act all but perfected by years of growing up in dresses while spending a lot of time with a dad who coached sports and played baseball himself and a brother who played sports, as well as studying martial arts with a group of guys. I am not afraid of guys (unless I'm attracted to him, in which case I'm the biggest wuss in the world). Simply being timid is probably the best way to become the one overlooked. Confidence gets you in the club.
It's a girl!
I have been the only woman many times in an IT department. You learn to talk sports (guy talk) and not take offense at things that are not sexual harassment.
But quite a few of these answers show why there is sexual harrasment rules.
Treating any co-worker like a person is a good start. You don't have to be a jerk.
An easy way to think about what you are saying is would you say this to your Mother or Grandmother and not get your mouth washed out with soap? Or how would you feel if someone said that to your girlfriend or boyfriend or your mother?
Or really just Drinking. Simple.
There's no "i" in team but there is a "u" in slum.