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Vista Startup Sound to be Mandatory?

Toreo asesino writes "There has been lots of debate in the past few days over Microsoft's plan to make the startup sound in Windows Vista something that can't be specifically silenced by changing the sound settings in the control panel. Users would be able to avoid hearing it by manually turning down the speaker volume, but then they would have to turn that volume back up to hear anything else."

93 of 865 comments (clear)

  1. that's only the half of it by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Funny

    wait until everyone learns that the new start up sound is the microsoft eula, read out loud, in nonrepeating segments

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:that's only the half of it by Greyfox · · Score: 5, Funny

      10,000 quatloos to the writer of the first virus that replaces the sound with a clip of a pig squealing.

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    2. Re:that's only the half of it by TheOtherChimeraTwin · · Score: 3, Funny

      Nope, you've got that wrong. It is actually my favorite song, so I'm going to upgrade right away!

    3. Re:that's only the half of it by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 3, Funny

      Inciting a riot is a serious criminal offense, I doubt they'd go that far.

    4. Re:that's only the half of it by theskipper · · Score: 5, Funny

      Followed by the sound of windows breaking.

    5. Re:that's only the half of it by russ1337 · · Score: 5, Funny


      It'll be:

      "Hello, This is Bill Gates and I pronounce Windows as Windows."

    6. Re:that's only the half of it by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Funny
      > Bonus if you can throw in Ballmer giving the order to "squeal like a piggie".

      Yew got a purdy mouth. Who said siddown? Ahm'a make yew squeal like the wheels on mah chair... Ah! Luv! Dis! Cumpany!

    7. Re:that's only the half of it by Russ+Steffen · · Score: 4, Funny

      How about:

      "Hello, This is Bill Gates, and I pronounce Windows as..." followed by sounds of Bill Gates rolling around in a giant pile of cash.

      or, for anyone who's played Paranoia

      "Trust the Computer. The Computer is your Friend. Not trusting the Computer is Treason..."

    8. Re:that's only the half of it by 0xB00F · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Mod points? Since when did Anonymous Cowards get mod points?

    9. Re:that's only the half of it by the_womble · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The last thing MS (or anyother proprietary software company) want is for anyone to read (or hear) the EULA.

      If people knew what was in them they might object.

    10. Re:that's only the half of it by freakmn · · Score: 4, Funny

      I believe that due to backward compatibility, the first sound you hear is, in fact, the sound of Windows breaking.

      --
      warning: This post is likely to contain gobs of dripping sarcasm. Consume at your own risk.
    11. Re:that's only the half of it by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 3, Funny

      Actually, the Vista startup sound will sound like this.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
  2. Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is a typical case of product-focused vs. user-focused thinking.

    Has it occured to anyone that a user might just wake up early morning and wants to turn on his/her computer without waking up sleeping family members?

    For this very reason one of the first setup steps I always do on a new machine is to turn off the startup sign.

  3. Their operating system, their choice. by eyegee88 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seems the least of our worries, we'll just await the first hack that makes sure the sample doesnt play.

    1. Re:Their operating system, their choice. by dayid · · Score: 3, Funny

      ...so can I still run windows on all my machines that don't have any speakers because they're office/production machines with no need for it or are they going to require a soundcard and speakers to run it?

  4. How to turn it off.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Delete or Rename the file? or has that functionality not made it into the filesystem yet?

    1. Re:How to turn it off.. by FLEB · · Score: 5, Insightful

      File?

      No, I imagine it'll involve subtly hacking a grafted-on Windows 2000 version of NTOSKRNL.DLL while fending off the frothing-at-the-mouth system-file protection and changing HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\SystemEnhanc ementLayer\{0092-02D1-26E5-0990}\Security\Initiali zationProtocolIsTrue to 210 (decimal), then making sure never to install any patches.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    2. Re:How to turn it off.. by WeblionX · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, they would have modded it "+1 Painfully True" if they could have...

      --
      (\(\
      (=_=) Bani!
      (")")
    3. Re:How to turn it off.. by jafac · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah, there's this nasty BITCH of a mechanism called Windows File Protection - where many of the common system files have backup copies in a hidden subdirectory called dllcache. If you delete the system copy, the os "detects" it (via a filter-driver), and copies the backup from dllcache.

      In some cases, the fix is to simply delete the dllcache version - if what you're trying to do is delete the file. But there's also an added level of hackery for a subset of these protected files, because they're also redundantly backed up in a .CAB file in dllcache - and that .CAB file has a manifest that has checksums and digital signatures socked away in a jet database or registry hive somewhere - theoretically, one could ONLY update one of these files via the Microsoft Installer Service API.

      So for files that are protected with this extra level, no, it's not really possible to change them via hex editor. I know that there used to be hacks in 2000 to disable WFP. I also know that in 2002, Microsoft did not have the expertise, in house, to answer a developer support question on WFP behavior (for a developer of BACKUP software - ie. "what happens if I restore the system to a previous version via backup software? - answer: nasty stuff. Which is why imaging software became a very popular way of backup and restore windows desktops).

      No - I know that guys like Marc Russinovich probably have a much better understanding of how WFP works. But this is my understanding after having to deal with it. Frankly, in the past few years, when I've had to remove spyware and malware from systems, there's an eerie resemblance in self-protection techniques between WFP and malware.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    4. Re:How to turn it off.. by scdeimos · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's not hard...
      Step 1: cacls {TheFile} /g Administrator:F
      Winlogon doesn't run as Administrator and so won't be able to load the file. WFP doesn't run as Administrator and so won't be able to replace the file.

  5. Copying the Mac again... by MacDork · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Mac startup sound has always been mandatory. Don't like it? Plug in your headphones for a second... The stuff that makes front page these days *sigh*

    1. Re:Copying the Mac again... by jevvim · · Score: 4, Informative
      The Mac startup sound has always been mandatory.

      Only if you haven't muted audio. If you mute the audio output and then reboot (or shutdown and then power on), you won't hear the power-on chime.

    2. Re:Copying the Mac again... by sfe_software · · Score: 4, Funny

      If that's any indication of the design of the rest of the system, it sounds awfully braindead to me. Computers are supposed to work *for* you, not against you.

      I see you are new to Microsoft products. Your sig seems to state otherwise, but since you still seem to believe that your computer should work for you, rather than for Microsoft, you obviously have yet to experience any Microsoft product in action.

      I genuinely feel sorry for anyone who has to experience Windows for the first time, especially if they are used to any other OS...

      --
      NGWave - Fast Sound Editor for Windows
    3. Re:Copying the Mac again... by WhiteWolf666 · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is NOT mandatory.

      Turn down your sound (in the OS X volume control), or mute your speakers.

      Restart.

      Tada! No startup sound.

      There are also applications and Applescripts that will do it automatically for you:
      http://alphaomega.software.free.fr/startupchimesto pper/Startup%20Chime%20Stopper.html
      http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20031 005165919533
      http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/16780

      By the way, the Apple startup sound is more akin to the PC Bios Boot-Beep. It's a hardware test, and it will play a different sound if there is a video card failure or ram failure, something which prevents the system from reaching the GUI.

      --
      WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
    4. Re:Copying the Mac again... by Above · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not manditory, and I believe it works the way most "non-geeks" would expect.

      It follows the software volume setting from when you turned off your Mac.

      You can also mute it by holding F3 while booting your Mac, which on any Apple keyboard has the "mute speaker" icon, which is also how you mute the speaker in software.

      There are also many free utilities that can disable it for you.

      I suppose using Google to search for "mac startup sound mute" and hitting I'm feeling lucky was too hard. The result is pretty clear....

      http://homepage.mac.com/geerlingguy/mac_support/ma c_help/pages/0025-startup_sound.html

    5. Re:Copying the Mac again... by 10Ghz · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Only if you haven't muted audio. If you mute the audio output and then reboot (or shutdown and then power on), you won't hear the power-on chime.


      So it's similar to Vista then? You need to mute the computer in order to not hear the chine, and then un-mute it again?

      I don't know about rest of you guys, but I find the Mac startup-chime _annoying_. And the user should be able to disable with zero hassle, and in such way that it does not affect rest of the system!
      --
      Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
    6. Re:Copying the Mac again... by MooUK · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What you've said, in essence, is "turning off sound turns off the sound". Of course it does. But that's not a solution in the slightest. There is absolutely no reason why we should not be able to disable a sound like that.

      Although if it's the POST beep equivalent, that's another matter, I suppose...

  6. What in the world? by SuperMog2002 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do they seriously think annoying the users who care enough about their systems to turn off the Windows startup sound in the first place is really a good idea?

    --
    Sunwalker Dezco for Warchief in 2016
  7. Broadcasters will object by jleq · · Score: 4, Informative

    They will have to come up with some kind of way to turn it off. The majority of broadcast automation applications still run on Windows. When I worked at KDKD, we had all the on-air PCs set to "No Sounds"... It's always funny to hear a Windows sound on the radio.

    1. Re:Broadcasters will object by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Broadcast automation software -the thing radio stations use to play commercials, news clips, pre-recorded programs, etc- uses the audio line-out to feed the sound to the transmitter.

      The sound can't be disabled because that's the whole point of having the automation software in the first place.

      Any bleeps or bloops or Windows logo noises will get picked up and passed along with the program material and broadcast to the five people still listening to broadcast radio. Who the hell wants to hear Windows sound effects on their radio? All that stuff has to be turned off or killed or deleted or something, leaving a pure program audio feed on the line-out.

      The same goes for offline audio workstations, such as one I have in my home. The boot noise is not so much an issue for me, but I can't have sound effect-equipped dialog boxes ruining my work. Right now, this is easy to deal with in XP.

      If Vista makes this impossible, then they've just closed the upgrade door on themselves. What I do now in XP, I can also do in linux and I will make that move if I have to do that to get the recordings I need. Honestly, XP Pro works so well for me right now, I can't see any reason to move to Vista.

  8. Bottom line by Spazmania · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here's the bottom line: If you have to ask the question, "Should the user be able to change this?" then the answer is: YES.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Bottom line by Pedrito · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Here's the bottom line: If you have to ask the question, "Should the user be able to change this?" then the answer is: YES.

      Actually, from a software design point of view, that's not necessarily the correct answer. If you make everything configurable that every user would possibly want to change, then you're looking at a UI that's going to be almost impossible to navigate, at least when you're talking about an OS the size of Vista. That said, I think this is a case where it should be something the user can change.

    2. Re:Bottom line by Spazmania · · Score: 4, Informative

      Mozilla Firefox is a counter-example to this argument. There are about a bazillion things you can change by entering "about:config" in the url bar. The vast majority can't be changed via the menus and thus don't clutter the UI. Yet they're readily available for anyone who does want to change them.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
  9. Just . . . don't . . . get . . . it by crumbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I try and try not to be ovelry criticize Microsoft, such as wasting shareholder dollars on Zune, but mandatory startup sounds for Vista? Talk about branding for the sheer point of making people associate your brand with irritation. Manually turning down the volume each time, say in a library or lab, is the work around? Huh?

      At least the article references Ze...

  10. Re:I hope this debate is a joke by TrekCycling · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think the fact that Microsoft considers this a feature worthy of pushing shows how trivial "enhancements" to Windows have become at this point. They're not bothering to fix what really needs fixing.

  11. um, I dont think so by xamomike · · Score: 3, Funny

    I really don't think this is gonna happen.. even if it does, it's a matter of hours before someone else hacks the startup processes to modify it. Besides, if the sound makes the sound of sucking $$$ out of my wallet, it might be perfect for Vista.

    --
    There are 10 types of people in the world; those who can read binary, and those who can't.
  12. Perhaps... by punkrocher · · Score: 5, Funny

    It will be something along the lines of this?

    --
    I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting be
  13. It's my computer, let me silence it by amigabill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's my freakin computer, you better let me silence it if I wish. Maybe I don't want to irritate people in a cafe, lobby, waiting room, whatever with noises coming from my laptop. Maybe I just don't want an "I'm ready to be used" noise. Maybe I don't care if you think it's convenient. Maybe I dont care if you think it's cool or pretty sounding. Maybe I just want the stupid thing to be quiet.

    And Xbox or Playstation are not good excuses, those are for a different market. There's also a number of people out there using mod chips to regain control of those things if they don't like some decisions from the manufacturer. Just because my Xbox makes a startup noise doesn't mean that I want it to. And just because some Engineer at Microsoft or Sony decided their toy for kids should make a startup noise does not mean I want to hear it on my laptop, tower, or anything at the office in the morning.

  14. Vista startup sound clip ought to be... by gsn · · Score: 5, Funny
    "This computer will self destruct in 5 seconds."

    I still hold out hope...

    QUESTION: Why don't you give advanced users the ability to turn this off via a registry setting or something like that?
    Steve: "we're considering just that."


    Yes Steve a registry setting please...
    HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\WinLogon\ShutTheFuckUp
    make sure that dword is set to 1
    --
    Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
  15. Don't do this by Tester · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This shows how disconnected from the real world Microsofties have become.

    Imagine being in a large university class with 100 or 200 students and half of them boot their laptops at the beginning of the class. The sound will be played 50-100 times, how much more annoying can it get!

  16. Let me guess... by EnsilZah · · Score: 4, Funny

    The startup sound will be the voice of Steve Ballmer saying "Please bend over, this won't take long".

  17. Mac has a "nice" startup sound by Seng · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The Mac startup sound is also a nice short chord.

    Microsoft's startup sounds have a length half as long as a standard symphony performance. The way Microsoft works, anything "unique" to them is going to be over the top and annoying to boot.

  18. Horrible idea by OnanTheBarbarian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wonderful. This will be a real plus in seminars, as people can't turn on their damn laptops without making a stupid noise. Or on an airplane. Or any other situation (with the kid sleeping in the other side of the room, for example).

    Stupid, stupid, stupid. Unbelievably dumb. A massive triumph of marketing people over reality. How can this can be presented as a 'I see both sides of this fascinating argument' in the article? The argument that lots of other systems do this too is irrelevant; currently, you don't have to do this in Windows - why start making this mistake now?

  19. Uh, Macs? by illuminatedwax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Is the startup sound on Macs customizable? I don't think it is. You turn on your computer and...

    "BAHHHH."

    --
    Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
    1. Re:Uh, Macs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      You can always just hold down the mute button during boot and it won't make the noise (at least I think, it's been awhile since I last restarted). You then let go of the mute button and it will return you to your pre-determined volume level while it's finishing booting.

    2. Re:Uh, Macs? by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually the startup chime obeys the system volume. If you need to have a "quiet" start and your volume wasn't shut off on shutdown, you can hold down the "mute" button as you boot and that will squelch the chime. If you are into esoteric settings or you have a special need to kill just the startup chime, install this third party utility, which allows you to set the startup chime volume directly.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  20. What you don't know... by VorpalEdge · · Score: 3, Funny

    The startup sound has obviously become the ca-ching of a cash register.

    It'd be pure microsoft...

  21. Re:I hope this debate is a joke by ozmanjusri · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I think the fact that Microsoft considers this a feature worthy of pushing shows how trivial "enhancements" to Windows have become at this point.

    It's just a marketing exercise.

    Quite smart, really - you generate a lot of hype about something absolutely trivial and get the user community, blogs, forums etc all hyped up. Then you implement the trivially pointless feature you've managed to convince people to really want, and proudly announce that you're responsive to your customers needs.

    Then you can get quietly back to locking them out from their own data with proprietary formats and DRM.

    --
    "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  22. In other news... by John+Pfeiffer · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...sources close to those in charge of Vista's user interface development say the startup sound will be that of '...[M]illions of computer users crying out, and suddenly silenced...'

    --

    Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
  23. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by Aeiri · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Has it occured to anyone that a user might just wake up early morning and wants to turn on his/her computer without waking up sleeping family members?

    Just today I walked into the "Maximum Quiet Study Area" for our univerisity's library, and popped open my laptop and turned it on. My gkrellm instance sounded my "alert" sound (which is actually very rare, the load was too high from the boot apparently), and I rushed to hit the mute button.

    The startup sound on Vista would be before any multimedia keys are registered if it's at all like XP is, and that wouldn't have worked. Laptop speakers don't have volume control!

    If Vista does require this, and I hear someone turn on their laptop with "welcome to Windows Vista!", I'm going to throw their laptop out a window, no pun intended.

  24. reason 78 I won't be using Vista by tomstdenis · · Score: 5, Funny

    Reason #1. It's from Microsoft
    Reason #2. It's been delayed 5 times and still won't die
    Reason #3: Fundamentally no better than XP
    Reason #4: Still no shell
    Reason #5: Or compiler
    Reason #6: Takes more space then it really ought to
    Reason #7: New added value bonus DRM compliance goodies!

    ...

    Reason #76: It takes more memory than a weather simulation of Earth just to show the desktop
    Reason #77: "Ultimate Edition"
    Reason #78: Annoying Startup Sounds

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  25. Subliminal Advertising by Lord+Prox · · Score: 3, Funny
    [tinfoil hat]
    I'll take a stab here and say that it will contain a subliminal message...
    • to buy other "Guniune Microsoft" products
    • piracy is theft
    • open source is communist
    • windows save you time
    • windows saves you money
    • windows is faster/better/cheaper than linux
    • Macintosh will never catch on

    After a while they will begin leasing out the SubLim ad slot to Microsoft Prefered Partners via the windows update function every tuesday.
    [/tinfoil hat]




    Place a curse on Microsoft
  26. The reasoning behind this is pathetic. by hruzaden · · Score: 5, Funny



    OMG..they have a branded starup sound! Can we have a startup sound too! Please!

    "A spiritual side of the branding experience. A short, brief, positive confirmation that your machine is now concious and ready to react."

    Spiritual side? WTF does that mean? Do we get Kool-aid if we format the drive?

    "The startup sound is designed to help you calibrate or fix something that got out of wack when you startup your machine. Let's say you muted your machine, and you don't hear your startup sound, you know you aren't ready to listen to stuff."

    Maybe the power LED being off, the dial at 0 or the red 'no' symbol on the speaker icon might give it away after you hear absoulutely nothing coming from the speakers?

    Of course there are the foot pedal mouse and coffee holder ROM drive crowd to think about. Maybe they can get an offical Vista helemt with a send in postcard.

    "The Xbox has a hard-wired startup sound. "

    Which makes sense. Your siting down to game and the sound system has a mojor role in that experience. It also happens as soon as the machine starts. You know exactly when it's going to happen. It's basically a "hey..it's this loud right now..get your volume set..we're getting ready to game". Not blast you out if you forget where your settings were the previous time and you walked away during boot up.

    People get paid to "think" this crap up. It's amazing.

  27. Not thinking of mobile users by THotze · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The problem with this is that it means that mobile users will be less likely to restart their computers - or power them up, for that matter - in meetings, etc., where you don't want to draw attention to yourself with an annoying startup sound. Now, I'm not sure if there's still an option for turning ALL windows alert sounds off, including the start up sound, which might mitigate this a bit. But on some computers, especially many laptops with softkeys for volume, you've got to ALREADY BE IN WINDOWS to turn the sound off. So say you were using your computer with sound on, say, gaming, turn it off, and boot up 2 hours later in a meeting - you'd have NO CHANCE of disabling a loud and annoying sound that draws the kind of attention to yourself that you REALLY don't want drawn to you.

    It all just begs the question "why?" was the code that they have to turn off the start up sound now SO BADLY WRITTEN that they decided not to migrate it? C'mon guys. And also:

    They've been working on this project as the "#1" priority in their group (past updates, etc.) for over half a decade now. I'd REALLY like to think that they'd have most of this kind of stuff decided already. Did somebody buy everyone in the Windows dev team an Xbox and then an XBox 360? Is that why its taken them 60 months to put together about as much of a feature upgrade as the OS X dev team usually puts together every 18 months? What have they been waiting for? Are they tailor-making Vista technologies to run Duke Nukem Forever? Is that the reason for the delay? Because I really can't find much of a better rationale anywhere else... other than maybe they've cut so many features of Vista in the past few years that no one left working on the project has any idea what code they're actually supposed to be writing.

    Oy.

    Tim

  28. Huh? by BCW2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You mean everyone doesn't delete all the M$ noise files at the first boot? Find a winbox that I haven't deleted the media files from, I looked and there aren't any here.

    --
    Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
  29. What is Windows turning to and why? by suv4x4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Here are three major OS on the market:

    OSX: built around experience, this OS is made to be simple to use, easy to market, look shiny and tie well with its accompanied Apple hardware. Apple's credo is that they are amazing as hell, and their users will be wowed at whatever they throw at them. As such, OSX provides features such as mandatory startup sounds, mandatory "hardware", mandatory skin and other mandatory "tuned to be kewl" stuff. They have some success, but their market share is still decreasing (currently at meager 2%) because they don't realize that unlike iPod, a PC is (yet) not just another consumer device.

    Unix / BSD / Linux: it's made for professionals, for tinkerers and and people who like control over their machines. Those OS have their share of attempts at eye candy, but the main point of the OS is the ability to go down to the bone and tune it just like you like it, without excess fat and trash around. It doesn't have much adoption with casual folks as a desktop OS because the distros are rarely consistent, require low level knowledge of the underlying system to get the maximum out of it and hardware software doesn't target it a lot.

    Windows: is sitting in the perfect spot. It's easy to use, has a lot of software written for it, works on commodity hardware, and is practical for business, entertainment and more. It's not perfect, and in fact was quite flaky when the consumer branch was based around the 9x core (for legacy reasons). These guys however get a lot of criticism that they are not enough like Apple and not enough like Unix. Windows has no cult status among its users, while *nix and Apple does.

    I have no idea whether it's a complex or lack of confidence in their own strategy, but sometime around XP, Microsoft decided they wanna be more like OSX and Unix, which are dwarfed by Windows on the market of desktop OS. They are just doing it, for no apparent reason, they are not losing market to their competitors on the desktop market, but feel the urge to copy them and be "more like them".

    XP and Vista are trying hard to build a branded experience much like OSX, while other projects like Channel 9, the new power shell, and tons of other admin-related utilities and technologies are targeted to the Unix crowd and appearing more opened.

    Some of this has positive effects on the users of Windows, but some of it, is just plain stupid (like the glassy look of aero.. it's not easier to use at all, it's one of those gadgets you show off in the PC shops, like OSX's scaling icons on the dock bar). Their desire to preserve their "perfect" branding by locking and hardcoding everything in place is just a symptom of this much deeper problem.

    I wish Microsoft would just accept its position in the market, keep the right balance between flexible and preconfigured, and swallow the criticisms, which will come no matter what, versus try and copy whatever fads come along.

    1. Re:What is Windows turning to and why? by Millenniumman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Two things I'd like to note:

      OS X's market share is not decreasing, and the number of users is increasing a lot.

      OS X does have things like the fancy dock animations, but unlike similar things in Windows, they don't get in your way, and they are actually nice.

      Windows isn't more flexible than OS X in most ways. Yes, it has built in theme support. Essentially, I can change Windows XP from horrid, gaudy, bright purple and green to icky silver and green. Woohoo. None of that makes the interface any better, functionally.

      OS X's interface isn't just better because you can look at it without going blind, it is far more intuitive and easy to use. And it includes support for the Klingon Language.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
  30. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by WoLpH · · Score: 5, Informative

    Not just the startup sound, but all of the sounds, like I want to hear if I click my mouse, my mouse can make that sound on its own, and I don't need a sound every time one of those alert buttons pop up, they are on top anyway so I'll see them, right?

    But then again, with OSX it isn't possible to disable the startup sound either (or so I've heard) so if people would make a fuss about this, then why not continue at apple?

  31. pirated version? by DeadboltX · · Score: 4, Funny

    The hacked pirated version is looking more appealing the more I read about vista

  32. Bummer... by ktakki · · Score: 5, Funny

    Since my first Windows box (WfW 3.11, 1993), I've used an awful lot of different startup sounds, from the sound of breaking glass to the Mac Quadra-era System 7 "CHUNG!", to funny outtakes from voiceover sessions I've engineered.

    My current system at work, which I built around an MSI Athlon 64+ motherboard, is housed in a case that looks like a Soviet-era toaster: dull silver-grey plastic and louvers on the front that look like they belong on the hood of a tractor. I festooned the case with hammer-and-sickle symbols and the letters "CCCP" in red type bordered in yellow. That computer's name is "katyusha".

    Its startup sound is the Red Army Chorus singing the Soviet National Anthem. Just one verse, though. It annoys my employer to no end, but he'll be the first one up against the wall when the Revolution happens. Fucking capitalist pig dog.

    What really annoys me is the faux "click" sound of an unaltered XP install, the one that's bound to Windows Explorer "Start Navigation" events. It's never in sync with the mouse click. Second most annoying is the crumpled paper sound when the "Recycle Bin" is emptied (are those bits really recycled? Hmmm?). I turn those off immediately after an install.

    Somewhat less annoying (but all too common) are users that bind the sound of a toilet flushing to the "Empty Recycle Bin" event. Invariably, they're the sort of person for whom a fart joke is the pinnacle of humor. But they bitch like hell when you bind the sound of a lusty wet ripping flatus to each mouse click. "My computer's been hacked!" they complain. "I was humiliated in front of a client!"

    How d'you like me now, bitch?

    k.

    --
    "In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
  33. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by GizmoToy · · Score: 5, Informative

    You don't even have to mute it before you shut down. You can shut the laptop down with the sound on. When you press the power on button, start holding down the Audio Off/Mute button on the keyboard. Hold it until you see the Apple. Bingo. No startup chime, and sound is still enabled (or disabled, whatever it was before) once you get to the desktop.

  34. Re:Apple does the same thing by MCSEBear · · Score: 3, Informative

    That sound lets you know your hardware has done the Mac equivilent of a POST. (Power On Self Test) PC Hardware beeps to let you know it has done it's POST too. Although you can set a start up sound in MacOS to let you know the OS has booted, one is definitely not forced upon you.

  35. Skip the window... by Jeff+Molby · · Score: 4, Funny
    I'm going to throw their laptop out a window, no pun intended.
    I prefer walls. They are almost always more gratifying plus you don't have to deny your use of a bad pun.
  36. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by danheskett · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, not to rain on your parade, BUT:

    I worked for a non-profit when Windows 2003 was released to manufacturing. They were donated two new dell servers and two boxed copies of Win2k3 Standard edition for the purpose of running two databases that previously were hosted on one box that was seriously overloaded. Decent servers on the high end at the time - hot swap power, hot swap drives, dual proc, etc. These boxes are Internet facing (not for database access, that requires an IPSEC connection at the firewall level) and hosted at a big name co-lo facility. The database is Oracle 9i.

    I remember well the day that I hardened them and finished the deployment. It was May 1st, 2003, a Thursday I believe. Win2k3 had just become available the previous week. Oracle had released a big set of patches for 9i not long before.

    I still check in on those boxes. One has 994 days of uptime, and the other has, as of last week, 1190 days. The longer running of the two - DAEDALUS - runs close to 75% load from 6am-6pm, 5 days a week.

    The only other box I have running that beats that is a Netware 4.x box. But that barely counts as a usuable OS :)

  37. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by 228e2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    thats not even the point. On my brand new Dell latitude D620, the XP start up sound plays before my mute button is registered. Trust me i've tried, when ive been in places that require silence and i find myself having to muffle my speakers physically.

    --
    Since when does being a Socialist mean 'someone who has a different opinion than me'?
  38. Mac Startup sound is hardly heard by Shawn+Parr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    1st reason, if you mute the sound, the startup chime is also muted.

    2nd reason, sleep actually works very well on Mac models, and most Mac laptop users don't shut their machines down often. This of course is not true of 100% of the population, but it is true of a very large portion. As one example the Macbook has a bug where if you shut it down and close the lid, it crashes and doesn't shut down. While this is a known issue, very few Macbook users report it or complain about it.

    I have only shut down my Macbook once, and that was to upgrade the RAM, since then it has been sleep only when it was not in use.

  39. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by Dhalka226 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But Apple can do no wrong here on /., so the point is moot.

    There. I fixed it for you.

    Look, this is either an idiotic thing that should be an option controllable by the user or it's not, and whichever it is, it is regardless of how many times somebody might reboot their computer.

    It never ceases to amaze me how many excuses people here can come up with for why their double standards aren't double standards. I expect no less than 5-6 more in reply to this post.

  40. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by Ucklak · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The suspend and sleep features are fairly crappy for Windows; at least not on par with Mac.

    I used to use the sleep feature on my Win laptop (used to travel around and install and configure routers and such) and it's fine for a few awakenings but you can't keep a bunch of apps loaded without the system being buggy. I eventually would reboot in the morning and load the essential before venturing out and do it daily. Daily reboots that is.

    My Mac has gone months without reboots and might add that it is operational within 2 seconds of opening the lid. I've only manually rebooted when it was time for security related patches that affected me. One thing that I use Windows for is the USB to serial for a console port which is why I use both platforms.

    --
    if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
  41. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by ArcadeNut · · Score: 4, Funny

    If Vista does require this, and I hear someone turn on their laptop with "welcome to Windows Vista!", I'm going to throw their laptop out a window, no pun intended.

    Most Airlines frown upon things being thrown out the window in mid flight....

    --
    Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com
  42. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by Drachemorder · · Score: 3, Funny
    If Vista does require this, and I hear someone turn on their laptop with "welcome to Windows Vista!", I'm going to throw their laptop out a window, no pun intended.
    Good plan. There are very few computer problems that can't be solved by a little constructive defenestration.
  43. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by kevinadi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    About the only laptop manufacturer left that still includes an actual potentiometer volume control is Toshiba, AFAIK, for all their models. All the others are using software for volumes, dedicated volume key or not.

    I have no idea why no other brands do this, but having an actual volume control is extremely useful. I hardly ever touch windows' horrible software volume control and just leave it at maximum.

  44. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by mr_zorg · · Score: 3, Informative

    There is this StartupSound Preferences Panel that allows for more control over the startup sound...

  45. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by fm6 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    For this very reason one of the first setup steps I always do on a new machine is to turn off the startup sign.

    I do it because having some corny sound play every time I reboot is just too much to bear.

    What really bugs me is that Scoble says he can "see both sides" of the issue. What kind of workplace culture does Microsoft have, where they'd even consider imposing such an obnoxious feature?

    This isn't going to happen, of course. The "you have got to be kidding" emails must be already pouring in. But the fact that this is an issue says nasty things about the Redmond mentality.

  46. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by xerxesdaphat · · Score: 3, Informative

    No I think you'll find on most laptops that that Fn+F11/F12 or whatever it might be actually does generate a key event; they work exactly the same as multimedia keys on desktop keyboards, the only reason they do it with Fn key is to save keyboard area. This is certainly the case on my laptop (which is by no means cheap or offbrand), and on nearly all laptops that I've seen which lack the wee little potentiometre setups.
                    My laptop is permanently muted anyway; who the hell listens to sounds coming out of your laptop speakers? Sounds like arse. And even when the headphones are plugged in, you still get major interference from the integrated sound chip.

    --
    The Shoes of the Fisherman's Wife Are Some Jive Ass Slippers
  47. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by NaDrew · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I still check in on those boxes. One has 994 days of uptime, and the other has, as of last week, 1190 days.
    I know you said you worked, past tense, for the company that owns those servers. But you must realize that however spiffy those uptime stats may be, they also mean that critical updates and service packs have not been installed. Most of the security-related patches require a reboot, and 2003 Service Pack 1 certainly does.
    --
    Vista:XPSP2::ME:98SE
  48. Sounds == Annoying by 4D6963 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When will people understand that sounds can be annoying?

    Sounds on web-pages are annoying, sounds when you start your computer or just use it normally are annoying, even in games sounds can be annoying, most of the time you just don't want to hear a sound, either because you don't want to make any noises or because you're listening to music.

    When is the last time that you were listening to music and some awefull piece of music emanating from your speakers 3 times louder than the music you were listening to all of this because someone on myspace tought it was cool to put music on their main page?

    My point is, make this a commandement : Thou shalt not make any sounds unless necessary. I mean really necessary, what's the point of having your computer make some pseudo-zen chime when it gets started up?

    Oh well, it gives you a couple of coolness points if your start up sound sounds like "SEGAAA!!!"

    --
    You just got troll'd!
  49. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by rk · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yes, and remember that the best way to accelerate your Vista-based system is 9.8 m/s^2!

  50. Even better by NetRAVEN5000 · · Score: 3, Funny

    It looks like you're trying to boot Windows!

  51. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by brucmack · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm pretty sure that my Thinkpad T42 volume keys work before the OS loads... It's probably not completely hardware, but at least it works without having any drivers installed in Windows.

  52. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by OldManAndTheC++ · · Score: 5, Funny

    Fun prank: change your air-traveler friend's Windows starup sound

    Laptop:"This laptop will expode in 10, 9, 8 ..."

    Federal Air Marshall:"Sir! Turn that off NOW or I WILL SHOOT!"

    Hapless Prankee:"Uh, I can't! It's Windows!"

    Hee hee!

    --
    Soylent Green is peoplicious!
  53. They'll crack it by Knossos · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, if people manage to change the boot/login screen of Windows XP, they're sure as hell gonna be able to locate the small bit of code relating to the startup sound.

    Hell, I'd learn how to crack just to get rid of it. Personally I like Windows making no sound at all, no boot up sound, no shutdown sound, no bloody minimize or maximize sounds.

    The only reason I'm considering getting Vista is because of DirectX 10. If any of you have seen the Crysis CryEngine videos you'll know why (Linky [video.google.com]).

    --
    Android Software Engineer
  54. Intel may have fixed that by vtcodger · · Score: 3, Funny
    ***My Mac has gone months without reboots and might add that it is operational within 2 seconds of opening the lid.***

    A computer feature that actually works? All the time?

    Oh, well, there's a pretty good chance that Apple's switching to Intel CPUs and the associated hardware architecture will fix that and you'll get to enjoy the pleasure of full reboots a lot more often just as we fortunate PC owners do

    --
    You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
  55. Volume by hcdejong · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If it's like the other 'system sounds' in Windows, they'll be recorded at full volume, unlike your music which is at -20 dB average. So you've got your computer connected to a nice sound system, you set your volume so the music (movie, etc.) is audible, and the system sounds will be loud enough to wake the dead.
    At least the systems sounds can be shut off.

    Please Microsoft, copy Apple's Sounds control panel which has a separate volume setting for system sounds.

  56. Re:Oh FFS by asuffield · · Score: 5, Insightful
    We're all capable of swapping the startup.wav for an empty file, should we so wish.


    Unless, of course, they tag it for WFP. That means, whenever you change it, Windows promptly changes it back and then displays a dialog telling you off for being such a naughty boy. In current versions of Windows, it's possible to disable WFP, but there's no particular reason why that should remain true.

    They're currently talking about whether or not to do something like this.
  57. Apple by a_greer2005 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    computershave "forced" the start sounder for like 20 years and I have never seen a complaint, why is it ok for Apple and not for Windows?

    1. Re:Apple by xeno-cat · · Score: 3, Funny

      Apple was the first computer to have a "start up" sound other than a beep. Responding to customer demand they added a feature that allowed you to turn it off. Microsoft, on the other hand, is removing a feature that, for the past 20 years, people have stated they want.

      See the difference?

      Kind Regards

      --
      "A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
  58. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by geggo98 · · Score: 3, Informative
    The Mac chime is a part of the BIOS.

    To be more precise, it is part of the Open Firmware. The word "Open" in Open Firmware doesn't mean the firmware is open source, but that it has an open API. Thus one can manipulate the firmware using this API without having to deal with a proprietary BIOS screen. E.g. the

    nvram
    command line tool on Mac OS X uses this API to manipulate settings of the firmware while the operating system is running.

    To disable the startup chime just execute

    nvram boot-volume=0
    on the command line, e.g. in the Mac OS X Terminal application. StartupSound.prefPane and TinkerTool System use similar techniques to disable the startup chime.

    So the startup chime of the Open Firmware isn't mandatory, but it is not very well documented, how to disable it. From a sophisticated platform like the Mac, I would expect an easily accessible control in the system preferences, not some thirdpary add-ons or obscure acrobatic on the command line; but perhaps I'm just spoiled over the years with OS X.

  59. Prats by ledow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So apparently, whoever thought this up doesn't ever, ever, ever use their laptop/computer in:

    1) Schools, Colleges, Universities
    2) Offices
    3) Libraries
    4) Home use at night
    5) Conferences
    6) Broadcast applications
    7) Confined areas (trains, planes, wifi hotspots, cafes)
    8) With an amplifier

    Apart from the obvious waste of MY money that I gave MS with my purchases, which they have spent to hire someone to make a sound that I don't want and will never want to hear (no matter what MS say), this is a mind-trick.

    Soon, the execs will "realise" that their customers have concerns and provide an off switch, thus putting into people's minds that they "listen to their customers". They were thinking that all along, it's just another way for people to continue talking about Vista that they will "remedy" by the time it comes out. It stops people thinking "But is it secure, is it easy to use, is it cheap, is it compatible?" and instead make them think "Well, they solved the worst problem, that stupid startup sound can be turned off". I don't want an "experience" with an OS. I would want to get some work done. I don't want it all to be integrated and matching - I would want it to boot fast, get on the Internet securely and not get in my way.

    I turn off ALL sounds, no matter what the OS. And I usually have my speakers off except when I'm anticipating an IM and have turned its notification sound on, or when I choose to have sound (DVD's, MP3's etc.).

    This is what used to wind me up about Windows - I have little to no control over the OS without bundling it full of freeware to do the job. I don't WANT Adobe Acrobat pre-loading at startup - I use it on less than 5% of my boots. In order to GET ASKED whether I want it to happen or not I have to install things like Startup Monitor from www.mlin.net. And still Adobe insists on re-trying every time I update it. I don't WANT it to, ever, at all, in any way, but there's no option for that.

    I don't WANT program X to access the Internet - at all, ever, under any circumstances. It might be a game that has absolutely no need to, or that I only use on the LAN, or it might be trying to act as a server all the time, thus giving me an instant security hole. But it's going to take until Vista for me to get a choice of whether or not I will allow it unless I install ZoneAlarm or something similar (which I've been using for this purpose for many years now).

    I don't WANT program X to install itself under some silly subdirectory - I really don't. Program Files is possibly the worst organised folder on any Windows drive because everything that ends up there chooses it's own structure - by company name, by product name, by some weird abbreviation - I don't WANT that. I CAN and WILL choose where this stuff goes, given half a chance. I have systems that differ from the software authors idea for a good place... I have categories - Audio/Video, Internet, Games, Graphics, Hardware, Utilities, all of which I have a perfectly clear idea of what should be where - I can organise my start menu in this way but rarely do you get a choice of where a game sticks its icons. Even rarer is the program that lets you CHOOSE where you install on the hard drive.

    I also WANT to be able to move any folder without breaking anything and having to regedit to fix it (if its possible to move it at all). I don't WANT My Documents or My Music or My Pictures or anything My, I have a perfectly well organised file structure myself and don't want every program creating a "My" directory and putting its stuff in there.

    I don't WANT to have to use five-thousand user-land applications that all put an icon in my system tray that I cannot remove without breaking stuff, cannot hide without a load of freeware and do not ever WANT just to use a poxy mouse or a hotkey or a wifi card. I don't WANT stuff to Auto-Update without my say-so, no matter how important someone else deems it is - I will choose WHEN and WHAT updates I install after carefully readi

  60. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by Like2Byte · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here's a no shitter.
    TIME: Post-9/11.

    Location: Major Metropolitan airport

    Me: I just purchased a new LT that was about 3 days new to me. Being on the road I didn't have much time to 'play' with it. I arrive at the airport, get my tickets and proceed to my terminal. I'm early. I decide to sit and have a look-see at what was preinstalled on my LT. I sit next to the check-in counter. I open windows explorer. yadda yadda yadda, I open the windows folder and find an executable named 'clock.avi.' I double-click it.

    The face of a clock take up most of the screen. It begins to Beep. LOUDLY. The clock is counting down. From 10.

  61. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What really bugs me is that Scoble says he can "see both sides" of the issue. What kind of workplace culture does Microsoft have, where they'd even consider imposing such an obnoxious feature?

    I'll guarantee they've contracted work to some "user experience" guru who says some crap about how sound is a more primal sense than sight, and that to properly brand Windows you have to associate it with a sound, and that this sound must always be associated with Windows.

    Of course, what they haven't thought of is that you don't want to associate your OS with a reboot these days. So this might backfire on them.

  62. Nice sig, but when I type it I get by Zenaku · · Score: 4, Funny

    !!! all ebuilds that could satisfy "girlfriend" have been masked.
    !!! possible candidates are:
    - jen/girlfriend-1.1.3-r5 (masked by: ~taken)
    - mary/girlfriend-1.1.3-r5 (masked by: ~uninterested)
    - karen/girlfriend-1.1.3-r5 (masked by: ~uninterested)
    !!! Error calculating dependencies. Please correct.

    --
    If fate makes you a motorcycle, you become a motorcycle.
  63. Re:"Your copy of Windows is genuine/pirate" by bhiestand · · Score: 4, Funny
    I'm holding out for: "Your copy of Windows is genuine/pirate" ...with the volume set to XXX-loud if it's pirate.

    The "Your copy of Windows is pirate" would just make people laugh and brag about it. What they really need is a "Hello. I'm watching GAY PORN! MEN HAVING SEX WITH MEN! IN THE BUTT!" sound played extremely loud. They could blackmail people into actually buying legit copies, especially if they syngergized by incorporating text-to-speech technology with the search history saving functionality of Internet Explorer 7 and Windows Genuine Advantage Automatic Updater and used the startup sounds to effectively communicate interesting search histories to anyone in the room. "Hello. I'm a pirated copy of Windows Vista. I was used to search WebMD for 'penile discharge' last night. Please contact Microsoft Legal Department in order to have your startup sound changed."

    Hmm, I'm tempted to write a little proof of concept program for my own pirated copy just to see how it works... The hard part would be getting it to find the juicy stuff on its own.
    --
    SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
  64. Re:Horrible idea, but thats par for the course for by bheer · · Score: 3, Informative

    I have no idea why no other brands do this, but having an actual volume control is extremely useful. I hardly ever touch windows' horrible software volume control and just leave it at maximum.

    Which is why Vista's volume control is actually useful - it can control volume per app (thanks to its new audio stack) ... no more getting an earsplitting jingle when your mail arrives because you set the volume to max on that movie you were playing.