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New Generation of Hydrogen Fuel Cells Powers Up

An anonymous reader writes "A safer and more practical way of storing and releasing hydrogen, discovered by two Arizona State University researchers, could lead to a new type of fuel cell capable of packing 10 times more energy. The key is apparently using the alkaline compound borohydride — 'a 30% solution of borohydride in water actually contains one-third more hydrogen than the same volume of liquid hydrogen.'"

191 comments

  1. Chemical info on Borohydride by xmas2003 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Wiki has a decent write up on NaBH4 for those interested and mentions the applicability to Fuel Cells.

    This is still in the research/development phase as per the article "Dr. Gervasio recognises that there are still many steps between his prototype and a competitively priced, off-the-shelf, battery-sized fuel cell. Nevertheless, he believes they could appear in power-hungry devices such as laptops, camcorders, and radios within five years." So until then, I'll be using CnH2n+2 to mow my lawn.

    --
    Hulk SMASH Celiac Disease
    1. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by palapa · · Score: 5, Informative

      Anhydrous ammonia has a hydrogen density of 0.12 gm/cm^3, compared to liquid hydrogen with a density of 0.07 gm/cm^3. In addition, ammonia is easy to reform for use in a fuel cell. Ammonia is already heavily distributed for agriculture, it volatilizes off as a lighter than air gas, it contains no carbon, and finding leaks is easy! The down side to either hydrogen-boride or ammonia is that they're not energy sources in themselves, but function (like a battery) as a convenient way to store energy.

      --
      "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence, is indistinguishable from malice." Grey's Law
    2. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The only energy source there is for our planet is the sun. All other fuels are essentially batteries there is only a difference as to when it was charged.

    3. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by spyinnzus · · Score: 1

      Where are you getting pure hydrocarbons from? And how are you able to ensure they don't combust all at the same time? Diesel, Gasoline, Kerosene, etc are quite far from pure hyrdrocarbons.

    4. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by NoseBag · · Score: 1

      Mod this one insightful, please. ...or,....uh...obvious. They're sometimes the same.

      --
      Cloned foods give the statement "We had that last week!" a whole new meaning.
    5. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Smidge204 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Diesel fuel has a hydrogen density of about 0.23 gm/cm^3, is a stable liquid at room temperature, and is noncorrosive (both Sodium Borohydride and Ammonia are corrosive). Biodiesel is roughly the same properties with the added benefit of being sulphur-free, cleaner burning (it's a naturally "oxygenated" fuel), biodegradable and renewable.

      The best, though, is that you can use any mixture of the two in existing vehicles with zero modifications* using the existing fuel storage, distribution and dispensing infrastructure.

      (* Rich Biodiesel blends may require additives or fuel preheaters for cold weather climates to prevent clouding.)
      =Smidge=

    6. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by flyingfsck · · Score: 0

      Nuclear? That comes comes from the previous version of Sol, but it is generally considered a primary source of energy.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    7. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

      The only energy source there is for our planet is the sun. All other fuels are essentially batteries there is only a difference as to when it was charged.

      Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go use some more electricity that was pushed onto the wires by the local power plant that runs on solar-powered uranium.

      --
      "If there was an antonym to 'Elon Musk', it would be 'Richard Branson'."
    8. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by saider · · Score: 1

      Nuclear fuels* and geothermal are two non-solar energy sources.

      *Nuclear could be considered solar, but not from our present star!

      --


      Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
    9. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking of solar energy, Dr Brewer of VA Tech developed a renewable hydrogen system that is inexpensive and activated by sunlight.

      http://www.earthsky.org/shows/show.php?date=200604 13

    10. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by spun · · Score: 1

      Hehe. If he'd only said "a star" instead of "the sun" he'd still be right, now wouldn't he?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    11. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All the above comments neglect the major energy source in the galaxy:

      gravity

      (ocean tides are one that can be easily used to generate electricity, global tidal forces contribute heat to the earth itself)

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    12. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by camperdave · · Score: 1

      If you're going to go that far, geothermal would be "solar" as well.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    13. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      I am thinking that on a first pass, any liquid that has hydrogen in it is worthy of consideration for fuel cell technology study. But the solution I am looking for is:
      0. Lights go dim in my house; Usage is about 1 Kilo Watt Hour per month.
      1. I go to some water source.
      2. Get a container of water.
      3. Pour the water through some type of Heat based Solar and/or Wind fractionator filter device.
      4. The filtered water is piped to some type of catalyst oriented Slitter/Generator device.
      5. Slitter/Generator device joins H's, and O's to make electricty, and vapor that floats away harmlessly or flows back to the main water source.
      6. Lights get brighter in my house.
      I know the above senario has no foundation; But the favored approach for me is to keep the Toxins at a relative minimum, and the High School Chemistry down to some gunk that one can replace by a plastic gloved hand without a Hazmat Team showing up and violating at you.

    14. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you efficiently manufacture anhydrous ammonia if you have a large energy source from common materials without producing toxic byproducts?

    15. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but I see one or two marketing obstacles to the diesel-powered laptop.

    16. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by zzottt · · Score: 0

      I run biodiesel in my 2000 New Beetle
      its awsome!
      all +'s
      plus it helps the farmers of the world instead of the rich oil basterds

    17. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by AtomicBomb · · Score: 2, Informative

      On the other hand, if you are talking about fuel cell for laptop, you don't really want to use anhydrous ammonia. It is damned lethal esp in confined space (read: in aircraft)... Many people seem to overlook the danger of ammnonia because they've handled diluted (5-10%) ammnonia solution at home. But, in gaseous form, it is even more toxic than carbon monoxide. The concentration that is Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health (IDLH) for ammmonia is 500ppm whereas it is 1200ppm for carbon monoxide.

      The smell of ammonia is a good warning. However, it does not always mean you can run away quickly... Once upon a time, I was almost choked by a small amount of ammonia when I spent my summer working in an industrial control lab. Some guy tripped the fuse when I was working in the fume hood. I inhaled the stream of ammonia released by the reaction before realising that. I could barely speak for almost five minutes afterwards.

    18. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shhhh! You'll ruin a good joke!

    19. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure how green biodiesel is. I think it's great to consume waste from the all too numerous deep fat fryers. I don't think there is enough biodiesel to power trips of KFC's customers too and from their restaurants.

    20. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by srussell · · Score: 1
      Biodiesel is roughly the same properties with the added benefit of being sulphur-free, cleaner burning (it's a naturally "oxygenated" fuel), biodegradable and renewable.
      You're right! Let me throw some of that into my ICE-powered laptop and fire it right up...

      Note that the very first sentence of TFA is:

      Within a few years, laptops and other energy-guzzling portable devices could run on long-lasting, easily recharged fuel cells based on a safe and practical new way of storing and releasing hydrogen.
      --- SER
    21. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My laptop runs off a small 2-stroke diesel built into the back. It's rather noisy, but runs for 12 hours and then you just refill the fuel tank. I don't know why more people don't use this sort of system. [/joke]

    22. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      Gee golly! If only there was a fuel cell technology that could use something other than pure hydrogen. Or if it must be hydrogen, maybe if there was a way to use the otherwise dense hydrogen-storing capability of readily available and stable hydrocarbon fuels as a source... hmmmmmm...

      But no, it's much too much fun to just fly off the handle isn't it?

      Preemptive rebuttal: Don't bitch about temperatures and scalability of the above references. That's what research is for. Point is "hydrogen" is too much of a buzzword and there are plenty of promising technologies out there.
      =Smidge=

    23. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by kimvette · · Score: 1

      Doesn't nuclear fuel theoretically originate from supernovae?

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    24. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Goonie · · Score: 1
      ...and you'd pretty much have to devote every piece of arable land in the United States to growing it to get enough for the US's vehicle fleet. Which wouldn't leave much for little things, like, um, food.

      Biodiesel from fast-growing algae might be a goer. Biodiesel from conventional crops is a stunt.

      --

      Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
      --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    25. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right... "OH MY GOD WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF FOSSIL FUELS! ALL THAT CARBON DIOXIDE IS CAUSING GLOBAL WARMING!!! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE"

      Super dooper Smidge suggests:
      OK! Perfect solution! Instead of fossil fuels... we use fossil fuels!!! And you know how the CO2 emissions are polluting the air? WELL! The emissions of THIS are CO2!! ISN'T THAT A BREAKTHROUGH..?!?!

      I do realise it's more efficient though, which worries me. The value of oil in today's economy means if a temporary quick-fix like this exists, car companies will probably jump on it. It doesn't really solve anything though.

    26. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      Except that it's NOT fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are the naturally occuring hydrocarbons thosands or millions of years old (Hence the "fossil" part).

      These fuels would be made from "new growth" biomass, which can include things like animal and human effluent, scrap paper and wood (recycling paper is HORRID for the environment) and if some thermal treatments are used, even scrap plastics. Not only are you creating fuel, you are eliminating landfill mass.

      And since this is all "new growth" material, it is carbon neutral. At the end fo the day, all of the carbon you released from burning the fuel came from biomass which ultimately came from plants which ultimately absorbed that carbon from the air. Since no fuel production method extract 100% of the carbon from the biomass, you could even make a claim that there is a net decrease in atmospheric carbon.

      It's pretty much triple-win except the economics of it all are still not very convincing.
      =Smidge=

    27. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by Smidge204 · · Score: 1
      and you'd pretty much have to devote every piece of arable land in the United States to growing it to get enough for the US's vehicle fleet.

      This would be true only if foodcrops such as corn or soybean were used for fuel production. Since we can make fuel out of almost anything, many things being better for production than high-oil corn and soybean, the amount of land required is not only less than whatever halfassed math that claim is based on, but includes lots of land that is not really suitable for growing food.

      IIRC the larger problem is supplying water for these crops. This can be solved by growing stuff that doesn't need much water, shifting some production to saltwater tolerant plants (algae) or maybe using greywater for irrigation since it's not for food anyway.
      =Smidge=
    28. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by khallow · · Score: 1

      This would be true only if foodcrops such as corn or soybean were used for fuel production. Since we can make fuel out of almost anything, many things being better for production than high-oil corn and soybean, the amount of land required is not only less than whatever halfassed math that claim is based on, but includes lots of land that is not really suitable for growing food.

      So what do you mean by "many things being better"? Soybean in particular is very efficient. You'd probably have to go to algae to find something signficantly more efficient. The comment on water is on spot. That's one of the strengths of algae production in that water is more efficiently used and often can be efficiently recycled as well.
    29. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by MagnusDredd · · Score: 1

      Biodiesel from fast-growing algae might be a goer. Biodiesel from conventional crops is a stunt.


      No, it might be a pain to get going, and it may require changes to be made, but it's not a stunt...

      Proposing cars running on 100% hydrogen is a stunt... Actually, hydrogen power isn't a stunt, it's a scam. It's 20 years out at the least, which is long enough for all of the current oil execs to retire (which is long enough for them).

      http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=6555
      http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4081
      http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,16781,16485 04,00.html
      ttp://www.biofuelwatch.org.uk/background5.php

      If you check out those articles you'll see that 40% of Brazil's fuel already comes from sugar cane. And they're still ramping up production...
    30. Re:Chemical info on Borohydride by GWBasic · · Score: 1
      Diesel fuel has a hydrogen density of about 0.23 gm/cm^3

      True, but it's physically impossible for an internal combustion engine to have an efficency greater then 50%. (This is because of the compression cycle.) A non-hybrid diesel will have an efficency of 20-30%.

      Compare this with an electric motor that has an efficency of about 90%. If the fuel cell has a 60% efficency, then the car has a total efficency of about 50%. (I think the projected efficency of fuel cells is 60%...)

      Basically, even though diesel has a greater energy density, the fuel cell will get a similar MPG because it's much more effiecent.

  2. In other news by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 3, Funny

    curiously all research lost in a massive fire when a gasoline tanker truck collided with the research building, Big Oil was unavailable for comment.

    --
    stuff |
    1. Re:In other news by legoburner · · Score: 1

      Damn you are right... gasoline is so flammable that we must move on to a (slightly) more stable fuel. Big Oil's plan has failed mwahahaha.

    2. Re:In other news by Impotent_Emperor · · Score: 1

      I thought I heard somewhere that most commercial hydrogen comes from oil wells.

    3. Re:In other news by Rei · · Score: 1

      Currently, yes -- natural gas. There are many other ways to make hydrogen, however, and if vehicles start running on it, they'll certainly end up becoming dominant. These include efficient means such as direct thermolysis, and inefficient but scalable means such as bacterial hydrogen production.

      There are two goals of the hydrogen economy: to divorce ourselves from the *necessity* of oil, and to increase overall system efficiency. There's a long way to go, but things like this are definitely progress.

      --
      "If there was an antonym to 'Elon Musk', it would be 'Richard Branson'."
    4. Re:In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


        That's not funny. It's just plain stupid. Oil Companies are actually looking into Hydrogen Production. Shell is one of those companies. Oil companies aren't stopping hydrogen cars but capitalizing on them. It's to bad the Home Fueling Station plans to eliminate the need for gas stations.

    5. Re:In other news by sejinh · · Score: 1

      Yeah, now where am I gonna work after my nearby McDonalds closes? Thanks a lot you "Home Fueling Station" bastards!

  3. Carbon by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Funny

    No one ever seems to mention this, but you can get some remarkably high energy capacity and relative stability (it's not going to blow up without a trigger) by using hydrogen-carbon compounds.

    Maybe I'm just a kook, but some serious work ought to go towards that sort of research, I think.

    1. Re:Carbon by toomz · · Score: 1

      Use oil for energy??? Preposterous!

      --
      If a chair is thrown in a forest, and there are no witnesses, did Ballmer still do it?
    2. Re:Carbon by gurps_npc · · Score: 4, Interesting
      You mean like the billions of dollars each year paid for by oil companies?

      Well for one thing, Sodium borohydride the fuel we are discussing has a HIGHER energy capacity then hydrogen-carbon compounds and has a HIGHER stability - less likely to burn).

      It is in most cases a far better fuel than hydrogen-carbon compounds like gasoline.

      The only reason we use gasoline is that oil is, despite new issues, still very plentiful. As we use it up, that will change.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    3. Re:Carbon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Figured how to get the carbon out? Bangledesh would really like to know. Venice is also pretty interested.

    4. Re:Carbon by Nutria · · Score: 1
      The only reason we use gasoline is that oil is, despite new issues, still very plentiful. As we use it up, that will change.

      We use gasoline because it's habit. Most new cars in Europe are diesel-powered.

      And Big Oil makes a lot of diesel oil.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    5. Re:Carbon by Ambidisastrous · · Score: 1

      As far back as the public consciousness goes, diesel engines have had noticeable less torque than gas engines. Of course it's something that can be solved with a bit of R&D, but that's the public perception, at least in the U.S. Also, since diesel fuel has been aimed more at trucks and heavy machinery (i.e. farmers, union and industry), politicians had allowed much looser restrictions on the cleanliness of the fuel. Tighter restrictions on sulphur content, in particular, were introduced at the beginning of this year, but it's still going to be some time before the American public associates diesel with anything other than the filthy black clouds belched by freight trucks.

      Allow me to also point out that petroleum overtook another previously dominant fuel because of economics. That fuel was... (drumroll, please) ...whale oil. Once whales were noticeably overhunted and no longer worth the effort to track down and kill, we took another look at that black stuff coming out of the ground in Pennsylvania.

      (BTW, I didn't bother to fact-check this on Wikipedia -- so now's your chance to pounce)

    6. Re:Carbon by njh · · Score: 1

      (BTW, I didn't bother to fact-check this on Wikipedia -- so now's your chance to pounce)

      Diesel engines are more torquey than petrol engines(for example, they idle at a lower speed). The problem is their narrow power band (hence the 100 gear changes behind that semi when you're late). If only we had a way to run the engine at a constant speed whilst delivering as much power as we wanted to the road... perhaps you can think of some contraption with electric motors?

    7. Re:Carbon by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
      Habits are easy to change. Addictions are harder to change. Saying we do something because it is a habit is not helpfull.

      Europe uses more diesel then the US because US regulations unfairly penaltize diesel - they are based on older model diesel engines that polluted a lot more.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    8. Re:Carbon by Nutria · · Score: 1
      it's still going to be some time before the American public associates diesel with anything other than the filthy black clouds belched by freight trucks.

      That's nothing but ancient perception. It's been 15 years since I've seen all/most trucks belching smoke as a matter of course.

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
  4. Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, please by Dimes · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ok, I am confused.....or ignorant.

    How does a mixture of Borohydride(not pure hydrogen) and Water(which is already only 2/3 hy
    drogen) end up being more hydrogen than Liquid Hydrogen? Isn't Liquid Hydrogen pure hydrogen?

    If I am ignorant, educate me....but this sorta reminds me of the line from Anchorman:

    "60% of the time it works 100% of the time"

    Help me understand.

    dimes

  5. Not Cars, But Laptops by neonprimetime · · Score: 1

    Within a few years, laptops and other energy-guzzling portable devices could run on long-lasting, easily recharged fuel cells based on a safe and practical new way of storing and releasing hydrogen.

    I assumed from the title that this article was about cars, but it turns out to be even more interesting because it's talking about laptops and portable devices instead.

  6. Title confused me by From+A+Far+Away+Land · · Score: 1

    "New Generation of Hydrogen Fuel Cells Powers Up"
    I read that first as a new ___ that generages Hydrogen Fuel Cells, and they are about to power it up for the first time! I guess I ought to try that coffee stuff, or maybe drink more of what comes out of fuel cells.

  7. For the non-fuel cell people. by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One of the major things that are holding Hydrogen Fuel Cells back is the fact that it takes more energy to extract the hyrogen from the envrionment then it produces in the fuel cell. So this makes hydrogen more expensive then fossil fuels, as well more of an inpact on the environment (assuming they are using non-green power generation)

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by timeOday · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As opposed to oil, where each gallon we pump out puts two back into the ground?

    2. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by bill_kress · · Score: 5, Funny

      You just described every enegery storage mechanism ever created INCLUDING oil (Oil does not create energy, it simply stores solar energy collected from the sun a while back.).

      The act of storing, transporting or using energy in any way involves waste (heat).

      Oil & coal happen to be pretty decent storage mechanisms--relatively little waste while in storage, but somewhat difficult to recharge and creating it is quite wasteful.

      So, if you are just talking about "Consuming" the energy, hydrogen is much more efficient and clean than oil. If you take into account the production of the energy as well, that's a different story. We'll have to set up some bogs and find some dinasours and wait a while before we can compare.

    3. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by Ironsides · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One of the major things that are holding Hydrogen Fuel Cells back is the fact that it takes more energy to extract the hyrogen from the envrionment then it produces in the fuel cell.

      That may be one of the major things, but I'd say the biggest is that with existing fuel cells, you're required to have pure hydrogen as a fuel. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not have something that is likely to explode around me. This will really help out in that respect.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    4. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by ADamiani · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the capacity to go boom almost innate in any form of chemical fuel storage? Gasoline is always a spark away from exploding-- would hydrogen be any worse?

    5. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by kfg · · Score: 4, Funny

      We'll have to set up some bogs and find some dinasours and wait a while before we can compare.

      Might I suggest looking in our various legislative bodies?

      KFG

    6. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, your rather wrong. Most, if not all (i'm not up on modern development of hydrogen fuel cells) use a barrier within them made out of Platnum. Platnum, one of the rarest metals on earth costs far, far more than the hydrogen fuel, and hydrogen fuel cells themselves could never replace all of our power needs due to the simple lack of abundance of Platnum on the Earth. There simply isn't enough, and it's all far too expensive anyhow.

      On the hydrogen side, any time you work with 'green' energy production situated on or very near water (tidal, Ocean thermal energy conversion, ect.) you can produce hydrogen easily. As other people have mentioned, all fuel takes more energy to make than to use. It's simply finding something that efficently converts energy to fuel in the first place, or the energy (solar for example) is abundant enough that wasting some isn't an issue.

    7. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by Smidge204 · · Score: 1
      Oil & coal happen to be pretty decent storage mechanisms--relatively little waste while in storage, but somewhat difficult to recharge and creating it is quite wasteful.

      Wasteful compared to what? With a variety of thermal chemical conversion processes, it is quite possible to convert biomass into crude oil quickly (hours) and efficiently - 85% or more of the potential energy in the biomass comes out as useful fuel, with the remainder going to sustain the process and to losses.
      =Smidge=
    8. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by myth24601 · · Score: 1
      Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the capacity to go boom almost innate in any form of chemical fuel storage? Gasoline is always a spark away from exploding-- would hydrogen be any worse?

      Fire as a result of car crashes is rare. http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=96&did= 533 3 out of 1000 crashes. I guess gasoline is only going to catch fire if it leaks out after a wreck.

      What would a fuel cell be like in a crash? I guess we will have to find out.

      --
      No matter where you go, there you are.
    9. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by Rei · · Score: 1

      Nope. Paraffin (wax) holds lots of energy. When was the last time you saw a candle explode?

      Explosions are more about rate of reaction than the amount of energy stored.

      --
      "If there was an antonym to 'Elon Musk', it would be 'Richard Branson'."
    10. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by brunascle · · Score: 1
      it simply stores solar energy collected from the sun a while back
      isnt that true of [nearly] all ways we obtain energy? it seems to me that we should cut out the middle man, and spend more time researching solar.
    11. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by Rei · · Score: 1

      Well, you should "be up on the subject" before you post about it. The electrode plates' catalysts can be platinum, palladium, nano-iron powder, carbon silk, or many other things. The prediction is that by 2007, fuel cell catalysts costs will be down to $30/kW. Also, direct borohydride fuel cells don't use normal catalysts.

      All of the parts of a fuel cell naturally start out pricey, and drop as technology advances and production increases. It's not a major constraint. Hydrogen storage dense enough and, at the same time, efficient enough to justify the use is the biggest problem. With current energy losses for producing borohydride fuels, and the poor cell efficiencies, you're not even close to the efficiency of burning biofuels (whether renewable or not), and even further from battery efficiency.

      --
      "If there was an antonym to 'Elon Musk', it would be 'Richard Branson'."
    12. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by nuzak · · Score: 1

      > would hydrogen be any worse?

      If you stored a tank of the liquid stuff, you could get a real nice boom if that thing had a catastrophic rupture. However, most tanks are pressurized gas, not liquid, and they're just going to puncture, not explode. Check this out for some video of what happens when a hydrogen tank ruptures. I'd sure hate to be in the way of that flame jet, sure, but it's otherwise less than impressive.

      You want to talk about rolling bombs, how about LNG or propane powered cars?

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    13. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot the energy "lost" while producing the biomass. You can't get around entropy. Period.

    14. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by radl33t · · Score: 0

      You need sufficient concentrations of fuel and oxidizer to sustain combustion (explosion), nearly impossible inside a sealed tank. These concentrations mostly occur from a broken leaky storage device. Even then, most situations conclude with sustained burning. It takes pretty peculiar circumstances for Hollywoodesque automobile explosions. By peculiar circumstances I mean a bomb in the trunk or under the chassis. Misconceptions are responsible for most fear of explosion or fission.

    15. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by RxScram · · Score: 1

      The hydrogen tank didn't rupture in those pictures... the connector was simply disconnected and ignited. I'm sure a rupture might be a bit more exciting, IF it happened, which I seriously doubt.

    16. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by booch · · Score: 1

      Isn't solar energy just nuclear energy being radiated at us some 95 million miles away? It seems to me that we should cut out the middle man, and just create our own nuclear energy.

      --
      Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
    17. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by Usquebaugh · · Score: 1

      Trouble is we need a farily high rate of reaction to power cars.

    18. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by aug24 · · Score: 1

      Whereas getting oil out of the environment is luckily free and non-polluting...?

      Ah yes, I remember. Those pumping rigs grow on pumping rig trees, and the great oil-hungry bore-worm provides us with pre-drilled holes in only the right places.

      If we could only train enough pelicans, the distribution network would be free too.

      (I know you're not actually claiming the above, but it bears observing that the same can be said for oil if the environmental costs are included.)

      Justin.

      --
      You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
    19. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      Can I do this? Sounds like something that I should be able to make a lot of money off, you know with the price of oil and all.

    20. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      Or, you could just cut out the middle man and go move to the sun. Oh, wait, the sun is unlivable. Maybe nuclear energy has something to do with that. Perhaps we could set up our nuclear reactors some where millions of miles away and transmit it here through some sort of beam--light or something--or if we looked really hard we could find one out there already just waiting to hand us all it's energy.

      Of course, it's harder to make money if there isn't a controlling authority--This is why the government keeps trying to convince us that nuclear is a good idea, lots of people even fall for it. The sun is so communist.

    21. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by myth24601 · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of the time "Dateline NBC" got busted when they used sparklers to make sure that a truck with "Sidesattle gas tanks" caught fire when hit right in the gas tanks. They said in the show that a spark from the headlight set off the gas but faild to mention that they had sparklers there too.

      --
      No matter where you go, there you are.
    22. Re:For the non-fuel cell people. by radl33t · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, this is the style of journalistic integrity I have come to expect.

  8. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by Pyromage · · Score: 1

    Liquid hydrogen is of relatively low density. That's why it has to be under pressure to even be liquid. Water, on the other hand, is solid and fairly dense at room temperature.

    I don't know the math behind it, but by starting from something that's naturally denser it seems at least possible to have more hydrogen in it. It'll probably weigh more.

    Can anyone spot-check this for sanity?

  9. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by Corp186 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Although I am not familiar with the chemistry of this research, it is quite possible to pack inordinate amounts of compounds in a solution. For instance, 1 ml (1 g) of water can hold 99 g of the compound used to develop film. The space around molecules in a solution can vary quite a bit, and if the geometries of the solute and solvent match very well to the forces between them, the wasted space can be decreased, increasing the concentration of the solution.

  10. for the submitter by jigjigga · · Score: 0

    the beauty of fuel cells is that it stores energy and transfers it in a clean(er) fashion- the statement that it takes more energy to extract hydrogen from the environment is a misleading factor when one considers that you could use solar, wind, hydro, thermal, etc... to generate electricity, through electrolysis create hydrogen, and thus store and transport energy.

  11. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by OverlordQ · · Score: 1

    How does a mixture of Borohydride(not pure hydrogen) and Water(which is already only 2/3 hy
    drogen) end up being more hydrogen than Liquid Hydrogen? Isn't Liquid Hydrogen pure hydrogen?


    They're saying there's more Hydrogen in the mixture per unit volume then pure hydrogen. So I'm guessing (most likely incorrectly) that their substance has a higher density then liquid hydrogen. Higher density => More 'Stuff' per volume => More Hydrogen.

    Course I could be wrong.

    --
    Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
  12. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by LotsOfPhil · · Score: 5, Informative

    Liquid H2 is not very dense at all. It's density is .068 g/mL (compared to water, which is 1 g/mL). When the borohydride is added to water, you get NaBO2 and 4 H2 molecules.

    --
    This post climbed Mt. Washington.
  13. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by Your+Pal+Dave · · Score: 4, Informative

    They're probably figuring it on a volumetric basis. Liquid hydrogen is not very dense (71 g/l). I would imagine this solution would be greater than water (1000 g/l). In a mobile application the volume of the fuel would be very important, and storing LH2 is non-trivial due to the temperatures and pressures involved.

  14. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by OverlordQ · · Score: 4, Funny

    Water, on the other hand, is solid and fairly dense at room temperature.
    Can anyone spot-check this for sanity?

    I dont know about you, but room temperature around here is a bit more then 0C, so 'round here our water is in it's liquid form at room temperature.

    --
    Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
  15. Huh? Storage and handling. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're missing a piece. Liquid hydrogen is hard to store (and expensive), and handle.* That's why most hydrogen storage cells store the gas in some kind of metal hydride matrix.

    *There's also the safety factor especially in the case of an accident.

  16. water.. by billmcnamara · · Score: 0

    I don't like the sound of water sloshing around in my laptop to be quite honest.. although i guess it could be useful for watercooling the cpus.

  17. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by MustardMan · · Score: 1

    I'm not immediately familiar with the stuff in question, but I'n guessing it's a simple matter of densities. You're dumping a solid powder made up of slightly complicated molecules into a liquid made of very simple molecules. The density of that solid is likely quite a bit higher than that of water or liquid hydrogen.

  18. yawn..... by jweller · · Score: 1

    If it can't be taken on an airplane, it will never gain widespread acceptance, and if I can't take bottled water through security, they sure as hell aren't going to allow this.

    1. Re:yawn..... by Yvan256 · · Score: 3, Funny
      if I can't take bottled water through security, they sure as hell aren't going to allow this.
      That's the problem, actually. Your bottled water contains hydrogen combined with oxygen! That's a really dangerous combination and could explode under the right conditions.
  19. Energy density by gr8_phk · · Score: 2, Funny

    Who cares about how much hydrogen you can get into a given volume. It should be all about energy per volume. It will be great when someone notices the energy density of hydrogen atoms attached to carbon chains - i.e. hydrocarbons. Oh wait...

    1. Re:Energy density by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You know, hydrogen injection does wonderful things for diesel motors.

      Instead of going 100% hydrogen or 100% [fossil fuel], you get more power & lower emission by running a combination.

      Right now there is at least one company that sells a kit for large diesels which electrolyzes hydrogen (from water) on the spot & injects it along with the diesel fuel.

      That system provides relatively small amounts of hydrogen, but this researcher claims 60:40 hydrogen:diesel hits the sweet spot..

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:Energy density by hevenor · · Score: 1

      Comparing energy alternatives is something that should be done more. I've had this chat with my office before that we have a lot of options. If we limit the discussion to transportation and focus on a few variables we might find a way to pick a winner in today's energy race. So let's look at three variables: Km/L, g waste/Km, and hazardousness of waste; one for efficiency of motion and the other for environmental effects. Here are our three options (add more if you like)(all numbers pulled from my ars). Km/L g waste/Km Hazardous Gasoline 50 5 CO2 - moderate Hydrogen 30 2 H20 - light, maybe ammonia - ? Rice* 40 500 feces - light * Where rice is made into a liter of mush and eaten, then a bike is ridden. Most people would also consider the efficient speed that each fuel would yield and take travel time into account. Some would say that there time is more valuable and therefore could burn whatever to get there quickly. Others would say that the health benefits of walking or riding a bike are also something to be considered. I think that when we talk about fuel efficiency that we need to consider things at a large scale, consider efficiency and impacts (environmental and social), and realize the greedy algorithm to living, aka path of least resistance, is not necessarily the optimal path.

    3. Re:Energy density by hevenor · · Score: 1
      (should preview your post I guess....here's an HTML version)

      Comparing energy alternatives is something that should be done more. I've had this chat with my office before that we have a lot of options. If we limit the discussion to transportation and focus on a few variables we might find a way to pick a winner in today's energy race. So let's look at three variables: Km/L, g waste/Km, and hazardousness of waste; one for efficiency of motion and the other for environmental effects. Here are our three options (add more if you like)(all numbers pulled from my ars).

      _______________Km/L_____g waste/Km_____Hazardous
      Gasoline_______50_________ 5___________ CO2 - moderate
      Hydrogen______ 30_________ 2 __________ H20 - light, maybe ammonia - ?
      Rice* _________40________ 500 _________ feces - light

      * Where rice is made into a liter of mush and eaten, then a bike is ridden.

      Most people would also consider the efficient speed that each fuel would yield and take travel time into account. Some would say that there time is more valuable and therefore could burn whatever to get there quickly. Others would say that the health benefits of walking or riding a bike are also something to be considered. I think that when we talk about fuel efficiency that we need to consider things at a large scale, consider efficiency and impacts (environmental and social), and realize the greedy algorithm to living, aka path of least resistance, is not necessarily the optimal path.

    4. Re:Energy density by constantnormal · · Score: 1

      I went through a similar process, and came up with similar numbers (8864 watt-hrs/liter). One wonders how efficient this borohydride fuel cell is.

      One would expect a fuel cell to be a lot lighter than a cast-iron engine block, but then electric motors are not exactly light weight. The best things about the prospect of using this in an automotive context is that

      1) It deals very nicely with the carbon emissions issue (although to properly deal with greenhouse gas emissions, one would have to capture the water vapor)

      2) It offers a much more feasible means of ending our dependence on foreign oil. Agricultural ethanol is *not* the answer -- at least not with any crop known today. I suspect that existing refineries and gas stations could be adapted to managing ethylene glycol and borohydride products, as well as recycling them.

    5. Re:Energy density by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      I would be very careful about burning vast amounts of pure hydrogen in a modern IC engine. It's well know that after running an engine on pure hydrogen for X amount of miles (kilometers), piston rings crack and valves chip. This happens because of a process known as hydrogen embrittlement.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    6. Re:Energy density by njh · · Score: 1

      (although to properly deal with greenhouse gas emissions, one would have to capture the water vapor)

      This is a myth. Water vapour readily changes to and from vapour phase and only is a greenhouse gas in vapour phase. (They call this non-forcing or something). I know in my greenhouse that I can get the air to 100% humid in the afternoon (at say 30C), and as soon as night comes along the temperature drops and the water falls straight back out of the air. If all the current carbon fuels were replaced with hydrogen, the amount of water vapour released into the air each day would be akin to a small cloud (say a few km^3 STP).

  20. Not New by gfordham · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Look up (MCEL) Millenium Cell, They've been doing this for awhile. I believe the chemistry for this has been around a while too lazy to look it up tho. Platinum Catylitic mesh, and Borohydride The fuelcellstore has a nice little generator --G

    --
    When work feels overwhelming, remember that you're going to die.
  21. I'm not sure that's right by CXI · · Score: 1

    I believe this article is talking about the technology described here:
    http://tinyurl.com/fa3oj (Science Direct)

    The original research paper states "The proposed fuel-cell system offers applications longevity owing to its more concentrated (up to 10 wt% H2) hydrogen storage than found with H2 stored under common tank pressures or in typical metal hydrides."

    Is the storage of liquid hydrogen considered a "common tank pressure"? I wouldn't think so. The big deal about this technology is that it stores the hydrogen in a very safe, room temperature, inert and non-flamable liquid until the instant it passes into the fuel cell.

  22. Chemical info on Chlorophyll. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    "The down side to either hydrogen-boride or ammonia is that they're not energy sources in themselves, but function (like a battery) as a convenient way to store energy."

    The same could be said for all indirect energy sources.*

    *Except for geothermal.

  23. Nuts and Volts for Nerds by ElitistWhiner · · Score: 1

    Great auto analogy mapped onto a chemistry experiment!

    "The researchers can now run the hydrogen generator on a 15% solution of borohydride, half-way to their goal of a truly power-packed 30% solution."

    Half a solution? Not 10X but would disrupt LiOn market at the promising 10X potential.

    Anyone want to explain the difference between this apparent wet technology and LiOn dry storage technology?

  24. old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google Chrysler Natrium. A company (www.milleniumcell.com) has had the catalyst needed to release hydrogen from sodium boro-hydride for a couple of years. Just tie it to a fuel cell and off you go. It's the only sane way to deal with Hydrogen. That being said, the only sane way to make lots of hydrogen is nuclear and a little solar.

  25. Give in to our nuclear overlords. by xshader · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is possible to design nuclear plants to preform electrolysis on the off-hours when the load is low. What does a nuclear power plant do? Boils lots of water. When the load is low, they can run the extra current directly thru the water that was just boiled. Yes, it is not the most efficient power conversion, but we have so much nuclear fuel available why not use it? Sometime in the future we will figure out what to do with the waste. We are a smart race. Worse case we can just launch it into the sun or in a trajectory pointing away from our planet.

    Is nuclear that bad? We have known the properties of the splitting atom for decades now... we should have a good understanding of how to utilize this abundant resource. The waste is manageable. Is the waste of a coal plant manageable? Once you spew all that C0_2 and other by-products into the atmosphere there is no (sane) way to recapture it.

    Nuclear is our future. Give in to our nuclear overlords.

    1. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by hickory-smoked · · Score: 1

      I am deeply suspicious of any solution that involves our decendants "sometime in the future figuring out what to do with the waste". I do agree that nuclear power is an option, and worthy of serious consideration and research, but don't sugar-coat the very real issues of waste, efficency, safety, and economics.

      But to address the Previous Parent, of course it takes more energy to produce hydrogen then you can extract from it. The question is can we use energy that is otherwise unuseable, due to lack of storage or transmission options, to extract hydrogen that's usable anywhere. That means wind and tidal energy (and yes, off-peak nuclear energy) are suddenly far more viable and efficent than they were before.

    2. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by Rei · · Score: 1

      That defeats the purpose. Next-gen nuclear plants often are high-temperature models, specifically designed for *thermolysis*, not electrolysis. It's much more efficient.

      --
      "If there was an antonym to 'Elon Musk', it would be 'Richard Branson'."
    3. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're going to talk about chemistry, at least use an O to represent Oxygen and not a zero. Thanks.

    4. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by Damek · · Score: 1

      Solar is much better than nuclear and has just as great a potential to provide all our energy. Cover all the roofs with solar panels, even in places with lots of clouds, and you'll get all the power we need. Especially combined with wind, tidal, etc.

      Nuclear sounds nice until one remembers the real nuclear waste problems: uranium mine tailings and depleted uranium. Don't ever forget that depleted uranium makes up over 98% of the mass of refined uranium ore. Nuclear plants themselves are pretty clean, and they're a lot safer these days, but mining for uranium, and dealing with depleted uranium, are hurdles best not tackled when we have better alternatives.

    5. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      What does a nuclear power plant do? Boils lots of water. When the load is low, they can run the extra current directly thru the water that was just boiled. Yes, it is not the most efficient power conversion...

      Well, since we all know by now that hydrogen is not an energy source, just an energy holder (well, gasoline is ultimatelly an energy holder as well, but... just watch my point). And if boiled water is easier hydrolised, couldn't we have car with a gasoline engine to provide electricity to an electric engine (like in diesel locomotives) AND heat to a hydrogen generator, which would also provide electricity to the electric engine? This way, the heat generated by the gasoline engine wouldn't be a total loss...

      I know, my idea might be a little too complex, but it could be an interesting intermediate step towards hydrogen vehicles. And you could provide either gasoline or hydrogen to the car. If you can get hydrogen from somewhere else, the gasoline would be optional or a way to improve the autonomy, in case you want to travel further.

      --
      So say we all
    6. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by Sugar+Watkins · · Score: 1

      I wholeheartedly agree that nuclear fission is the way to go... and I'm an environmentalist! Continuing to burn massive quantities of coal is the absolute worst thing we could do, in my opinion, because (A) it's predominantly carbon, unlike petroleum (hydrocarbons), where at least part of the energy comes from the transformation of hydrogen & oxygen into water; and (B) a significant quantity of toxic elements like mercury are emitted when burning coal.

      The most bizarre thing to me is how everybody uses the dismissive term "nuclear waste". But doesn't the very fact that these nuclear byproducts emit alpha particles, beta particles, gamma rays and neutrons mean that these substances are a potential source of energy??? Geez... rather than bury the stuff in drums in a mountain, separate the constituent elements out and use the gamma emitters in hospital air purification systems. Make electricity using alpha particle emitting anodes (i.e. positively charged helium nuclei) and beta particle emitting cathodes (electrons). Use neutron sources to convert depleted uranium (U-238) to burnable plutonium (Pu-239), and so on.

      So can someone please tell me why we aren't getting more creative with "nuclear waste"? I seriously want to know. I'm guessing that there are technical reasons that I'm not aware of, but I NEVER hear anyone talking about them.

    7. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OH MY GOD!!! THE TERRORISTS WILL MAKE A BOMB WITH DEPLETED URANIUM!!! THE EVIL AMERICANS ALREADY HAVE.

      WTF exactly is your problem with DU? It's poisonous, but not significantly more so then the mercury which is being poured into our atmosphere from coal burning plants. It's a metal at room temperature and stores very well. In fact, if the liars at CNN would shut up, we'd find that DU is very usefull in many places where we now use lead or tungston. By the way, making solar cells generates mine tailings that are much worse then those from uranium extraction.

    8. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by owlstead · · Score: 1

      "The waste is manageable."

      > fortune
      How many nuclear engineers does it take to change a light bulb ?

      Seven: One to install the new bulb, and six to determine what to do
                      with the old one for the next 10,000 years.

      As long as the problem isn't solved the waste is NOT managable. We know how to split the nucleat atom for decades now, and we have decades of nuclear storage problems as well, first dumping it in the ocean, and - as I understand - now there are ideas to store nuclear waste it old "ground zero" locations. Which are unstable. Current nuclear reactors (and especially old but still running nuclear reactors) are not the answer.

    9. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by sickofthisshit · · Score: 1

      Hint, to avoid sounding like an idiot, do not mention the idea of "shooting stuff into the sun" as a means of disposal.

      Things on Earth do not fall into the sun by themselves; we have to do significant work to decrease the kinetic energy the stuff has by virtue of being here on Earth, where we orbit the sun. Which means we need to build expensive rockets to lift the stuff off of earth, with enough rocket fuel to transfer it to an orbit which intersects the sun. Not cheap, not foolproof, not even particularly safe.

    10. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by talonyx · · Score: 1

      It pisses me off to no extent to see that the solution for all of today's energy problems have a fairly simple, 1950's era technology solution. Nuclear power is virtually pollution free, and all modern reactors (such as Canadian ones, the last of the British ones, and probably the new Chinese ones) are so far away from any chance of a catastrophic meltdown that it's not even a real consideration.

      I blame Chernobyl for a lot of this; it's always what people bring up when you mention nuclear power.

      As for the waste, I agree with the idea that we need to store it; it will definitely be useful one day. It's fucking radioactive, it's probably useful for something. Firing it into the sun is a waste.

    11. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by Damek · · Score: 1

      solar panels = mine tailings - reference please?

      And BTW, chill. I didn't say anything about terrorists. Seriously, chill. Unhinged response, anyone?

    12. Re:Give in to our nuclear overlords. by Billy+the+Mountain · · Score: 1

      WTF exactly is your problem with DU?

      Hmmm, what's so bad about DU? Well, if you subject it to an alpha source it turns into Plutonium. Other than that, it's peachy.

      --
      That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
  26. NaBO2 - Is it dangerous? by Mr.Sharpy · · Score: 1

    When combined with water, NaBH4 produces 4H and NaBO2. How difficult is NaBO2 to deal with, and can it be dangerous/toxic? Any chemistry people want to share any info on this byproduct?

    1. Re:NaBO2 - Is it dangerous? by timatcrn · · Score: 3, Informative

      How difficult is NaBO2 to deal with, and can it be dangerous/toxic?

      From Batteries Digest:

      The only other reaction product, sodium metaborate (analogous to borax), is water-soluble and environmentally benign.

    2. Re:NaBO2 - Is it dangerous? by orzetto · · Score: 1

      As it's a reaction product, it is likely to be depleted of energy, so it won't bang. As it is oxidised, it should not react with air again. As it is ionic (Na+ and BO2^-) it is a solid salt. Not sure about solubility in water, but may precipitate at relatively low concentrations since ions are of similar hardness (though not perfectly matching). Would not eat it as anything I know only by a chemical formula, and boron is not especially friendly to life. In short, not more dangerous than things you can probably find in your kitchen or bathroom.

      --
      Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
    3. Re:NaBO2 - Is it dangerous? by dibblda · · Score: 1

      No, it is non-toxic LD50 orally in rats: 5.66 g/kg Sodium Chloride: LD50 orally in rats: 3.75 ±0.43 g/kg LD50 = lethal dose for 50 percent of a population in grams per kilogram of animal Bottom line, less toxic than table salt.

  27. Bad math? by Yvan256 · · Score: 1
    I didn't RTFA, but...

    a new type of fuel cell capable of packing 10 times more energy. [...] a [...] solution of borohydride in water [...] contains one-third more hydrogen than the same volume of liquid hydrogen.


    So, it contains 33% more hydrogen but it ends up being 1000% more energy?

    I don't get it.

    1. Re:Bad math? by Knetzar · · Score: 1

      having a volume that's 33% larger doesn't mean it contains 33% more hydrogen. The solution of borohydride and water probably has a greater density of hydrogen then liquid hydrogen.

    2. Re:Bad math? by boutell · · Score: 1

      They may be glossing over an important detail, something like "10 times as much usable energy when you take into account that you're not wasting energy on pressurization or cooling."

      --
      Check out the Apostrophe open-source CMS: http://www.apostrophenow.com/
    3. Re:Bad math? by orzetto · · Score: 1

      Quantity of hydrogen != quantity of energy, it's the strength/weakness of chemical bonds and how much energy they liberate when they react (usually with oxygen) that counts. Otherwise water would be a great power source.

      Aside from that, the 33% is relative to liquid hydrogen, the other one (too lazy to RTFA) likely to gaseous.

      --
      Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
    4. Re:Bad math? by GreyPoopon · · Score: 1
      They may be glossing over an important detail, something like "10 times as much usable energy when you take into account that you're not wasting energy on pressurization or cooling."
      Nah, the summary is just bad. The article indicates that it will have 10 times as much usable energy (2200 watt-hours/l) as LITHIUM POLYMER batteries (200 watt-hours/l).
      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

  28. Sounds good, but by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...should the day Dell announce another battery recall on their new hydrogen-powered laptops ever arrive, I'll be the first to run for the hills.

    --
    throw new NoSignatureException();
  29. New generation? by zdzichu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm still waiting for previous generation to be available as laptop battery.

    --
    :wq
  30. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Liquid Hydrogen is not very dense. The attractive forces that pull it together to form a liquid are weak and only effective a low temperatures. When hydrogen forms molecules its electron tends to migrate towards other atoms slightly increasing the size of that atom's electron shells. A hydrogen atom shrinks right down to its nucleus, not the next smaller shell, since there are no other elcetrons to form shells when it loses its elctron. It takes 779 ml of liquid oxygen and 1586 ml of liquid hydrogen to make a liter of water. Hydrogen is a special case, even with inner shells left, binding forces can lead to higher densities. A liter of Aluminum oxide weighs 3.973 kg of which 1.905 kg is Oxygen. That same 1.905kg of oxygen in liquid form occupies a volume of 1.671 liters.

  31. Energy density by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In the article, they state the energy density of this new fuel is 600 watt hours / litre, with the goal of eventually getting it up to 2200.

    According to wikipedia, gasoline has an energy density of 32 megajoules per litre, which if I did the conversion right, comes out to about 8890 watt hours / litre. This sounds like a big difference until you consider that gas engines are typically somewhere around %20-30 efficient. It appears they may some day make a fuel that's roughly equivalent to gasoline.

  32. Misleading article title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article is about new hydrogen storage technology and not new fuel cells ...

  33. Irrelevant! http://tinyurl.com/9l6os by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://tinyurl.com/9l6os

    ExxonMobil Australia chairman Mark Nolan used his speech to the Asia Pacific oil and gas conference in Adelaide today to debunk the theory of peak oil, which suggests oil supplies have peaked and will dwindle over the next 20 years.

    NASA scientists are about to publish conclusive studies showing abundant methane of a non-biologic nature is found on Saturn's giant moon Titan, a finding that validates a new book's contention that oil is not a fossil fuel.

    We have more oil inside our borders, than all the other proven reserves on earth.

    1. Re:Irrelevant! http://tinyurl.com/9l6os by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is true. People either pretend not to know, or are ignorant of the facts. The facts are that the planet is SWIMMING in oil! There is no danger of it running out any time soon or even getting scarce. The rise in oil prices are due to speculation caused by recent events in the Middle East and higher demand in the rest of the world - PERIOD. This hysteria about "peak oil" and $120/barrel prices reminds me of the hysteria over global warming. I suspect you will find the same fruitcakes support both ideas.

  34. Hmmm ... by Shadowlore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It uses ruthenium. Ruthenium runs about 175 USD/ounce. Ruthenium is a member the cateogry called "precious metals". It's a rather limited supply item. Given it's other uses I wouldn't expect to see these things be inexpensive. Also menas it will be unlikely to be viable for larger scale applications such as automotive, residential, or commercial power requirements. Still, it is kinda cool.

    There is also the question of lifespan and cycling. While the liter of fluid requirement can be worked around, long term issues such as cleanliness of the proces with regards to catalyst maintenance. I'd be cautios about using the phrase "halfway there" just becuase they are using half the percentage of solution they are looking for. While they are at 15% vs 30%, they are also at 600Wh versus the 2200 claimed in the article. Granted, that's theortical maximum, but the effective use of 30% solution is also theoretical.

    --
    My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
    1. Re:Hmmm ... by stevesliva · · Score: 1
      It uses ruthenium. Ruthenium runs about 175 USD/ounce. Ruthenium is a member the cateogry called "precious metals". It's a rather limited supply item. Given it's other uses I wouldn't expect to see these things be inexpensive. Also menas it will be unlikely to be viable for larger scale applications such as automotive, residential, or commercial power requirements.
      Wouldn't the same logic have ruled out the usage of catalytic converters in cars? It didn't say how much ruthenium was required. Per ounce, ruthenium appears to be cheaper than palladium and far cheaper than platinum.
      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
    2. Re:Hmmm ... by TubeSteak · · Score: 1
      It uses ruthenium. Ruthenium runs about 175 USD/ounce. Ruthenium is a member the cateogry called "precious metals". It's a rather limited supply item.
      Lets talk about catalytic converters, which are in just about every vehicle with 4 wheels and a combustion motor.

      It uses platinum. Platinum runs about 1192 USD/ounce. Platinum is a member the category called "precious metals". It's a rather limited supply item.

      P.S. Cat converters also use rhodium (4900 USD/ounce) and/or palladium (322 USD/ounce)
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    3. Re:Hmmm ... by maxume · · Score: 1

      Platinum goes for about $1200/ounce. It's a member of the category called 'precious metals'. It's in every new car sold in the United States.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  35. Molten Boron to the rescue! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nobody does it like Molten Boron!

    1. Re:Molten Boron to the rescue! by PDAToday · · Score: 1

      I'll be honest with you, I love its chemical compound, I do, I'm a Molten Boron fan. For my money, it doesn't get any better than when it bubbles "When an Atom Loves to Bond".

      (ducks for cover)

  36. How to hydrogenate borax? by maillemaker · · Score: 1

    So I'm curious: After reading about this stuff on Wikipedia, it says:

    "Borax can be hydrogenated back into borohydride fuel by several different techniques, some of which require nothing more than water and electricity or heat. These techniques are still in active development."

    It seems that when the Borohydride fuel is used up, you are left with Borax, which you can buy at the grocery store.

    So how exactly does one hyrdogenate Borax to turn it back into Borohydride fuel? Because it would be way cool if my car just had a tank full of borax, and every night I got home I filled up a separate water tank and plugged it into the house current to convert the Borax back into Borohydride for the next day's commute.

    How do you convert Borax into Borohydride?

    Steve

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
    1. Re:How to hydrogenate borax? by MetaPhyzx · · Score: 1
      How do you convert Borax into Borohydride?


      A 20 Mule Team?

      Thank you, thank you.. I'll be here all night :)
      --
      Blacker than my baby girl's stare. Black like the veil that the muslimina wear. Black like the planet that they fear...
  37. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 1

    Liquid hydrogen is of relatively low density. That's why it has to be under pressure to even be liquid.

    Ignoring the solid-water gaffe (assuming your air-conditioning simply isn't turned down too low...)

    Liquid hydrogen has to be cold. It's not like, say, propane or butane which will liquefy under pressure even at room temperature - liquid hydrogen's boiling point is sufficiently low that if you pressurise the gas at room temperature, all you get is a pressurised gas.

    Useful for storing smaller quantities of hydrogen in a safe manner, but for petrol-competitive amounts you need to vastly increase the density. By cooling it, and letting it liquefy. This does mean that insulated, non-actively-cooled tanks of liquid hydrogen have to vent what boils off - if it was completely sealed, then you'd end up with a tank of ridiculously high-pressure hydrogen gas. Liquid nitrogen does something similar, although you don't have the problem of venting a flammable gas with a container filled with liquid nitrogen...

    --
    Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
  38. Hydrogen Generation from Sodium Borohydride by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



    This is is an article on how it is created:

    http://www.millenniumcell.com/fw/main/How_it_Works -31.html

    But do we really think big oil is going to let this happen?

    1. Re:Hydrogen Generation from Sodium Borohydride by trongey · · Score: 1
      This is is an article on how it is created:

      http://www.millenniumcell.com/fw/main/How_it_Works -31.html [millenniumcell.com]

      But do we really think big oil is going to let this happen?

      Of course they will. Where do you think the electricity is going to come from to make the borohydride?
      --
      You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
  39. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by Ruie · · Score: 1
    How does a mixture of Borohydride(not pure hydrogen) and Water(which is already only 2/3 hy drogen) end up being more hydrogen than Liquid Hydrogen? Isn't Liquid Hydrogen pure hydrogen?

    This is actually a very interesting question. Let's see if I can get this right:

    Each atom has positively charged nucleus and a bunch of electrons, so the whole thing is neutral. The more electrons we have the bigger the attraction force. Thus, while the diameter of the atom grows with element number it does so only slowly and one can consider atom size to be roughly constant - especially for elements like H, O, B.

    What determines the volume of the liquid is then the size of the molecules composing it - and a molecule like H2O has some parts of the electron shells overlapping.

    However, in case of pure hydrogen it is so light that besides pure electrostatic repulsion one also has uncertainty principle - the mass of H2 is so small that it cannot be within a very small volume or it would have to possess a large momentum (and thus be very hot).

    If I am right it would mean that deuterium would have 40% less volume for the same number of atoms as hydrogen - but I don't have a ready reference - crosscheck anyone ?

  40. For that matter.... by StressGuy · · Score: 1

    I've sat next to more than my fair share of passengers that managed to smuggle "methane" of board the aircraft.

    {...shhh!, not everybody got that....}

    --
    A goal is a dream with a deadline
  41. Maybe not so new?? by GreyPoopon · · Score: 1

    Uh, I'm not so sure that this is entirely new. Maybe the antifreeze additive is new....

    --

    GreyPoopon
    --
    Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

  42. No, that doesn't tell how... by maillemaker · · Score: 1

    Your article didn't say how to convert the waste Borax back into Sodium Borohydride.

    I did find an article that is somewhat useful here:

    http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/progress04/iii b1_wu.pdf#search=%22how%20to%20make%20Sodium%20bor ohydride%22

    But it is a bit over my head technically. It sounds like you do some kind of electrolysis to convert back to Borohydride.

    Steve

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
  43. The math by LotsOfPhil · · Score: 1

    If the 30% solution of borohydride (by mass) has the same density as water (which is not true) then you have .30 g of NaBH4 per mL of solution.
    Each gram of NaBH4 of has .108 g of hydrogen in it. So you have .032 g of H per mL of solution.
    You get 1 *molecule* of H2 from each atom of H in the original compound. So you multiply the mass of by 2. This gives you .064 g of H2 per mL of solution.
    The density of liquid H2 is ~0.68, so that is where the magic number of 30% comes from.
    The reaction is: NaBH4 + 2 H20 -> NaBO2 + 4 H2

    --
    This post climbed Mt. Washington.
  44. Already being done? by RhysTheElf · · Score: 0

    I found this link: http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/borohydride-alkalin e-solutions/ which talks about this process being developed and ready for use at the end of the year. In the article from January 16, 2006 talks about Medis Technologies having a disposable product which is expected to sell for under $20 and will provide ~30 hours of cell phone power or ~60 hours of MP3 player power.

  45. apples to apples please by Pike · · Score: 1

    Interesting, so how efficient will the new engines be? Your statement as written seems to contemplate an 80% efficient hydro engine comparing favorably with a worst-case 20% efficient petrol engine...this sounds kind of unrealistic.

    1. Re:apples to apples please by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      Guess what? Since fuel cells directly convert chemical energy into electrical energy, they are far more efficient than a combustion engine that is limited by the laws of thermodynamics (i.e. the process is chemical energy -> thermal energy -> mechanical or thermal energy). I believe I've seen specifications indicating that fuel cells can achieve at least 50% efficiency, of not more. (The table on Wikipedia confirms this - some efficiencies are as high as 70%).

      The idea is not that sodium borohydride is a better energy storage system alone than diesel, it's that the "whole system" is better, due to the fact that fuel cells are inherently far more efficient than nearly anything which involves a thermal cycle.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    2. Re:apples to apples please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Electric cars are around 95% efficient at converting any electrical source of power. We don't use electric cars because the energy sources either recharge slowly, store too little, or have some other issue that makes them not work as an engine replacement (like the lifetime of the batteries in the Prius).

    3. Re:apples to apples please by njh · · Score: 1

      Best case for locomotion ICE is around 15% in practice. Stationary engines and maritime engines can get higher efficiencies. Note that engine efficiency is often quoted in % of carnot efficiency (multiply by say 40% for steel cylinders).

    4. Re:apples to apples please by njh · · Score: 1

      Fuel cells also obey the laws of thermodynamics in this house, Andy. It's just that the hot temperature is the 'flame temperature' (say 5000K for hydrogen-oxygen) rather than the average temperature (1000K for petrol air). You are right that a hydrogen store leads to a better overall system, and also avoids producing carbon dioxide (which is believed to cause climate change).

  46. Another good article on Sodium Borohydride by maillemaker · · Score: 1
    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
  47. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by dgatwood · · Score: 1

    Pyromage lives in Siberia, you insensitive clod!

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  48. Sounds like a big breakthrough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hydrogen storage has been a big obstacle to its usefulness as a fuel. I can picture a filling station that exchanges your spent borohydride solution for fresh borohydride and recharging the spent borohydride. You could also have a home or built-in recharger running off household electricity. Eventually we could eliminate half the filling stations, adding electricity generating capacity. This could have further effects of reducing city pollution making them more attractive residences. This can lead to less dependence on oil respiratory distress, shorter commutes, less traffic, less energy consumption and. I

  49. The War on Drugs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...will *NEVER* allow you to have ready access to stuff like NaBH4, LiAlH4 (LAH) or anything else that can be used as a powerful and selective reducing agent for use in fuel cells. We're lucky that lithium batteries themselves haven't already been completely outlawed. Drug cops are already furious over the prospect of hydrogen-fueled vehicles. Mere possesion of anhydrous ammonia is already a felony in most states unless you're a farmer or a licensed chemist.

  50. methane hydrates by zogger · · Score: 1

    We need a way to safely harvest methane hydrates. Solve that question, you'll be *rich*. Screw up, another extinction event! Good times!

  51. Why only small devices? by Perp+Atuitie · · Score: 1

    I figured this would mention bigger applications like cars/tranportation, but they seem to studiously avoid that obvious question. So is there a reason this technology wouldn't scale up?

    1. Re:Why only small devices? by peter303 · · Score: 1

      Like the guy (Tesla Motors) has has built a high performance out of computer batteries - $20,000 worth of batteris and a $100,000 car.

  52. theoretically e = mc2 by peter303 · · Score: 1

    I am amused at how these eggheads predict huge efficiencies in theory , but say in practice they haven't quite achieved current technology.

  53. Cool by Aqua_boy17 · · Score: 1
    The only other reaction product, sodium metaborate (analogous to borax), is water-soluble and environmentally benign.
    This is great. So what you're saying is that after my laptop battery is dead, I can toss it in the washing machine and finally get rid of those embarrasing pit stains and 'ring around the collar'? :p
    --
    What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
  54. The long emergency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hasn't anyone read this book? All these "deux ex machina" fantasy technologies depend heavily on an existing oil-based economy. Won't work guys. Learn to ride a horse.

  55. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by 5pp000 · · Score: 1

    Remember, all matter (at least, outside of a neutron star) is almost entirely empty space. Its density is controlled by how the electrons interact with one another and with the nuclei -- that's what keeps everything from collapsing into black holes. As the atomic number increases (the nuclei have more protons, and thus more positive charge) the electrostatic forces pull the electrons into tighter orbits, and, other things being equal, you get a denser material.

    That's the very simple explanation -- there are other factors that affect density, like molecular conformation and crystal structure -- but it makes the point. It's all about the electrons.

    --
    Your god may be dead, but mine aren't!
  56. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by treeves · · Score: 1

    You are not right. In many ways.
    1. The density of a liquid is dependent not only on the size of the molecules in it, but on their mass, and on the space between them (that's why hot water is less dense than cold water - on average there is more space between hot water molecules than cold).
    2. Atomic size is not constant. It does change (not monotonically) with atomic number. You can see how here: Atom radii.
    3. ALL molecules have "overlapping" electronic orbitals if you mean that the atoms are sharing some electrons between them - that's what makes them molecules. Not sure what your point is here.
    4. Deuterium has about the same atomic volume as hydrogen (where'd you get 40% less?) but the atomic mass is naturally about doubled (1 proton +1 neutron vs 1 proton - and almost all the mass is in the nucleus), thus the density of D2 is twice that of H2.
    5. The density difference between D2 and H2 is of no practical value for fuel cells. It'd be worse to use D2 since it's heavier and the increased density comes from the nuclei, not from an increased number of atoms per volume. And you're not getting energy out of the nucleus but out of the rearrangement of chemical (electronic) bonds. At least until we start talking about nuclear-powered cars. Then count me in!

    --
    ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
  57. what i want to see by teh_chrizzle · · Score: 1

    is not the first hydrogen powered car, but the first hydrogen powered car accident.

    --
    sarcasm:
    -noun
    1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
  58. What's the energy density of gasoline? by ankhank · · Score: 1

    > Theoretically, this could achieve an energy density up to about 2200 watt-hours per litre...
    > compared to 200 watt-hours per litre for a lithium polymer battery.

    Quick, anyone --what's the energy density of gasoline, for comparison?

    1. Re:What's the energy density of gasoline? by AlXtreme · · Score: 1
      Ding!

      Looks like fuel cells still have a long way to go. Gasoline has an energy density of 32 MJ/l.

      --
      This sig is intentionally left blank
    2. Re:What's the energy density of gasoline? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how efficient is an internal combustion engine? Uh huh.

      Compare the right things, or you get nonsense.

    3. Re:What's the energy density of gasoline? by xtronics · · Score: 1

      And how efficient is an internal combustion engine? Uh huh.

      Compare the right things, or you get nonsense.


      Good point, they claim almost 40% for the battery - ICE are about the same.

      More at:http://xtronics.com/reference/energy_density.ht m

  59. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by Ruie · · Score: 1
    Thanks for the reply, comments below:

    1. The density of a liquid is dependent not only on the size of the molecules in it, but on their mass, and on the space between them (that's why hot water is less dense than cold water - on average there is more space between hot water molecules than cold).

    Yes - I was assuming that temperature is fixed and very low (as needed to liquify hydrogen.

    2. Atomic size is not constant. It does change (not monotonically) with atomic number. You can see how here: Atom radii.

    Yes - but slowly. Thank your for the link, it is actually closer than I thought: r_H=53pm, r_B=87pm, r_O=48pm.

    This is as opposed to increasing the radius proportionately to the cubic root of the atom number.

    3. ALL molecules have "overlapping" electronic orbitals if you mean that the atoms are sharing some electrons between them - that's what makes them molecules. Not sure what your point is here.

    What I meant is that the volume of the molecule is smaller than sum of volumes of individual atoms. In particular, I would expect oxygen to strip the electron from the hydrogen completely so that the size of the molecule would be not much larger than the size of a single oxygen atom.

    4. Deuterium has about the same atomic volume as hydrogen (where'd you get 40% less?) but the atomic mass is naturally about doubled (1 proton +1 neutron vs 1 proton - and almost all the mass is in the nucleus), thus the density of D2 is twice that of H2.

    Actually I was wrong - by that reasoning the volume should be smaller almost by a factor of 3 (2^1.5), however I would expect electrostatic repulsion to kick in before this factor is reached.

    5. The density difference between D2 and H2 is of no practical value for fuel cells. It'd be worse to use D2 since it's heavier and the increased density comes from the nuclei, not from an increased number of atoms per volume. And you're not getting energy out of the nucleus but out of the rearrangement of chemical (electronic) bonds. At least until we start talking about nuclear-powered cars. Then count me in!

    That was just an example. I thought by density we meant energy content per volume, not per unit of mass ? Since for a car mass is of lesser concern than volume. As for nuclear powered cars - me too :)

  60. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by complexmath · · Score: 1

    I dont know about you, but room temperature around here is a bit more then 0C, so 'round here our water is in it's liquid form at room temperature.

    Exactly. Water is actually more dense in liquid form than solid form.

  61. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by OverlordQ · · Score: 1

    I'm not disputing that, I'm saying Water is rarely solid at 'room temperature'.

    --
    Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
  62. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by billanderson71 · · Score: 1

    Even water by itself has more hydrogen per volume than liquid hydrogen does. At 20 K, liquid hydrogen has a density of only 0.071 grams/ml. (Water has a density of 1 gram/ml, so has a hydrogen density of 0.11 grams/ml.) IANAP (I am not a physicist), but I've been told that the very low density is caused by quantum mechanical effects. In fact, liquid hydrogen is so light, that under high enough pressure, you can get is to float above gaseous helium.

  63. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by Escherial · · Score: 1

    Well, it's relatively solid, compared to its gaseous form (and hydrogen is a gas at normal room temperature/pressure).

  64. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by camperdave · · Score: 1

    It may be cool there, but temperatures are still well above freezing.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  65. yeah yeah yeah by naratom_is_me · · Score: 1

    how many times are they going to say we have a new fuel cell its drivig me nuts i meen come on!!!!

  66. Oops by complexmath · · Score: 1

    I misread the OP. Nothing to see here. Move along.

  67. biomass conversion by camperdave · · Score: 1

    So, why don't we have factories hauling in biomass and pumping out oil? Do you have any links? I'd like to learn a bit more about these conversion processes.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:biomass conversion by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerizat ion

      There is currently one pilot plant that I know of (which is also mentioned in the article). It converts turkey offal into oil.

      The two biggest reasons why this has not become more popular are 1) Until recently the cost of the biomass (which has other uses and must be purchased at a market price) was too high to produce a fuel that was competitive with petrolium, and 2) Until recently (~10 years or so) the process wasn't very efficient anyway, and not viable. But as petrolium oil continues to get more expensive, this is IMHO one of the best technologies to fill in the gap -- the other being biofuels (Biodiesel and bioalcohol).
      =Smidge=

    2. Re:biomass conversion by camperdave · · Score: 1

      From the link, it sound like they can start with pretty much anything. They could probably buy the trash from fast food companies and use that. I don't think they recycle any of that.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  68. More Research... by A*OnYourA** · · Score: 1

    Ugh, another article about our "hydrogen future."

    Hydrogen is such a 'pie in the sky' technology. It costs too much to make hydrogen, it's expensive to store and the infrastructure is non-existant. Even with this new technology, hydrogen costs more to make and loses more energy than any other fuel out there.

    Not only that, but there is already a proven alternative. Electric cars have the infrastructure (power outlets), are more efficient than either oil or hydrogen, and there is far less pollution using power from the grid than burning oil or making hydrogen with current methods.

    Anyone who wants to know the truth needs to look at California. Back in the 1990s, California forced major car companies to make a choice... either make EVs or you can't sell cars in California. The auto companies made electric cars that were fast, looked good and could go 120 miles on a charge. Thousands of people wanted them. Instead of selling the cars, the auto companies leased them, then joined oil companies to lobby California politicians to cancel the EV mandate.

    Andrew Card, former GM lobbyist and Bush Chief of Staff acted as a plaintiff against the State of California, attempting to sue the state for pushing the EV mandate. A few years later, the Department of Justice under the Bush administration filed an amicus brief supporting GM and other automakers. The automakers were very clear, they didn't want to make electric cars... so much so they even took back and crushed every EV they leased.

    To replace EVs, Bush presented the new "Hydrogen Economy." He gave $1.2 billion of taxpayer money to car makers just to research the technology. This article is no doubt part of that research.

    Hydrogen is of course 10 to 15 years away... suspiciously convenient for auto-manufacters and oil companies who don't want electric cars. So my conclusion is that, everything you see on TV, everything you see on the web about hydrogen, it's all just a big charade to distract people away from electric cars.

    Good discussion and movie:
    http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic8972.html
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSBykAngDpY

    1. Re:More Research... by potat0man · · Score: 1

      So make one and drive it around. Who's stopping you?

  69. Yaya...but it causes cancer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Diesel exhaust is a known human carcinogen.

    http://www1.umn.edu/eoh/hazards/hazardssite/diesel exhaust/dieselhealtheffects.html
    http://www.cdc.gov/eLCOSH/docs/d0600/d000609/d0006 09.html

    Everyone likes to think they have the answer. Your's is rich in carbon AND causes cancer.

    And my refutation rhymed too.

    1. Re:Yaya...but it causes cancer by Burz · · Score: 2, Informative

      ...well, at least it was cute and rhymed.

      http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/b asics/jtb_biodiesel.pdf

      "biodiesel can reduce the carcinogenic properties of diesel fuel by 94%"

      Biodiesel exhaust != Diesel exhaust.

  70. Re:Huh? Help out an under educated ignorant, pleas by sickofthisshit · · Score: 1

    Actually, you mean critical point: the boiling point is actually a line in the phase diagram, where liquid turns to gas at a particular pressure; critical point marks the maximum temperature where there is a phase transition between liquid and gas, i.e. above which there is no boiling point!

    Hydrogen's critical temperature is 33 K, it's boiling point at 1 atm is 20.3 K.

  71. Greenpeace? by Nicolay77 · · Score: 1

    Can't anybody think of Greenpeace?
    They have a born-given right to protest for everything that is ever sold!

    However, I think they will find something here to bitch about, too.

    --
    We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
  72. Hydrogen fuel cells are a red herring by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    They were thrown up by the US government to distract people from the battery advances that have been coming through and to give the oil companies another 15 years. There are batteries here now which'll charge in 15 mins, drive a car 200 miles or so and last three quarters of a million miles.

    Hydrogen fuel cells, filling stations simply don't make sense in comparison.

    --
    Deleted
  73. It's called... by TheStonepedo · · Score: 1

    It appears they may some day make a fuel that's roughly equivalent to gasoline.
    It's called food. "They" are nature rather than science in the case of food. The human body is very good at turning food into useful energy. While I'm all for new, less environmentally destructive fuels, I am also a commuter who rides a bicycle daily. My coworkers burn a gallon or so of gas to get to and from work in stop-and-go traffic slightly faster than my average speed. With the downside of getting sweaty or rained on aside, I am more efficient on a 50 cent grapefruit and a cup of cheapy-cheapy coffee than they are on a $3 gallon of gas.

    --
    I'll be your candy shop of infinite deliciousity if you'll be my discotheque of endless rump-shaking.
  74. The reason that my collegues havent commented... by Super+Happy+Fun+Chem · · Score: 1

    is that after reading the article and the comments, our brains committed suicide. Christ on a cross, people get funded for wastes of time like this, and friends of mine cant get a dime for research. Ill say this, this 'technology' is going nowhere. Hell, Ill save them the catalyst and use lithium aluminum hydride. Any chemistry student worth their salt remembers that H:- donor + H2O = H2 and OH. Been known for a very long time. Borohydride is more stable, and cheaper than the aluminum hydrides (hence the catalyst), but for god sakes, its still expensive (2 kilos is about 500 bucks) and I doubt that they can find a way regenerate in situ. Great way of making H2 on the spot, but not in any fashion where you need to recharge your supply quickly. /rant

  75. Good Arctic weather map by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fun map of the Arctic, with links to weather measurements.

  76. Correction by mr_pins · · Score: 1

    Nobody does it like Molten Boron!

    I believe the correct Futurama quote is: 'Nobody doesn't like molten boron.'

    It's a play on the 'Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee' slogan/jingle used to hawk Sara Lee pastries.

  77. Chinese all electric car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See Automotive News, August 21, 2006, page 4: US dealers are charged up about selling Chinese electric vehichles. Imported by Miles Automotive Group, built by Tianjin-Qingyuan Electric Vehicle Co. They will use lithium-ion batteries, go 80 mph and have a range of at least 200 miles. The 4 door version will be available in 2008. $27,000 A low speed version is "available now". It sounds like a modified golf cart. 200 miles will cover most usage. If you want to leave town rent a gas buggy.

  78. Brazil is a special case by Goonie · · Score: 1

    Brazil is a special case - a middle-income country with a huge agricultural export sector and a climate suitable for growing sugar cane, which is where all the ethanol comes from. What it does can't be replicated in the United States, Europe, or most importantly China and India.

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)