Slashdot Mirror
US Outlaws Online Gambling
imaginaryelf writes, "As reported earlier on Slashdot, in the closing hours of the US Congressional session on Friday, September 29, the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 (H.R.4411.RH) was attached to the Safe Port Act of 2006 H.R.4954.EAS.
To the surprise of many, the bill passed both the House and the Senate, and Bush is expected to sign it into law this week. This effectively outlaws online gambling in the US, by way of making it illegal for credit-card companies to collect payments for bets. The financial markets punished the stock of online gambling companies as some prepared to pull out of the US entirely."
Thank God the congress knows how to protect me from the evil casinos! Four more years!
5 will get you 10 they won't enforce it.
"The financial markets punished the stock of online gambling companies as some prepared to pull out of the US entirely."
I bet they did. Shit, someone's knocking at my door.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Congress is just upset that they can't effectively tax online gambling because most of the companies are offshore. It's a case of sour grapes - if we can't tax it, you can't do it!
Insisting on "correct" English is like saying that there is only one, definitive recipe for chili.
According to the bill's title, the act was already illegal and all it is doing is enforcing it. If that's the case, why was a bill needed? Shouldn't it have been law enforcement's problem?
Possible circumvention?:
The companies sell you a t-shirt. The cc companies can process that payment. It just so happens that a promo is going on that gives the user 100 free 'tokens' when they purchase a shirt.
Mike Coles
'bluelip'
Yep, I never spell check.
More incorrect spellings can be found he
The Way I understand it is, you put in some money and play with that. Will they now block being able to get your money back out. And with online casinos looking to close their US operations will they just take the money in these accounts with them?
The only drawback I can see is you might end up in an offshore prison without access to a lawyer or any due process, since the only reason you would do this is to fund terrorist attacks, right?
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
Why couldn't our nation have been started by someone cool instead of a bunch of lame Protestants.
A brick and mortar casino gaming license wouldn't be quite as lucrative a give away to the wealthy and well connected if they had to compete with online casinos that anyone can set up overseas. Lets face it, a legal casino in an area where gambling of most forms is illegal is basically an ATM machine with flashing lights.
In my state the hypocrisy is reaching new heights as the GOP governor continues to try to allow slot machines at horse tracks while it is still technically illegal to play poker among friends.
Does this mean they're going to take down eBay and PayPal?
I certainly feel like I'm gambling whenever I do business there?
How about Ameritrade? Stocks are certainly gambling
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Well, your rights were being trampled before, and now they closed the loophole by which you were able to secure your right to waste your money. Gambling is stupid, no doubt (you WILL lose), but you SHOULD have the right to make your own stupid decisions. Just because a government is tyrannical does not mean its people don't have rights. They are just having their rights significantly violated. The greater question here is where was the credit card lobby. They are going to lose serious money on this (1% fee on $12bn of transactions, PLUS the fact that people who gamble tend to have high debt and revolve credit at high interest rates).
This sig has not been evaluated by the FDA. It is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any disease.
the the legislature of my country is so incompetant, to get something they want passed, they have to tack it on to something completely irrelevant.
34486853790
Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
How on earth is it legit to tack a completely unrelated bill to another and pass them both under the same vote? Am I the only one who sees how unbelievably insane that is?
Surely anyone voting against the bill will be blasted for not securing US ports, even when it was a vote in protest to the anti-gambling legislation.
The way the US government goes around telling the world how to run their 'democracy' is so incredibly laughable at this point.
> What am I missing?
Money laundering laws. The gist being that they don't care what middlemen your money goes through, it's the endpoints that count.
Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
Another free shirt?
Pass.
More than anything, this is a prime example of how members of Congress manipulate the legislation system to get a bill they want pass to ride on the coattails of a 'sure-win' bill. Then after that they basically pass the buck off to the courts (if it ever makes it that far) to overturn the law or declare it unconstitutional or whatever.
I think its about time that Congress get off their lazy asses and start drafting their own bills for the particular agenda items they have. This sort of manipulative behavior itself should be outlawed, but find me a single member of Congress that would vote to outlaw it. In a system where checks and balances are supposed to exist, they certaintly don't here.
And they said zombies weren't real!
The hypocracy! Aren't these the same people yelling 'Global Economy' at the top of there lungs, and signing free trade agreements with every country that has cheap labor. I guess the world economy only counts if it give the U.S. and advantage.
YRO aside, it is currently illegal is gamble in most of the United States anyway, except certain states and indian reservations. So, in this case, I don't really feel that anyone's "rights" are being trampled
Rights do not depend on laws; either to grant said rights, nor can rights be revoked by law. If something is a right then it's something
you can do without asking anybody's permission, period. You can voluntary accept the authority of some entity (maybe called "government" or something) to restrict *your* rights if *you* want to, but don't make the mistake of assuming that govt. has any inate authority to restrict anyone else's rights.
As such, I will say that free people have a "right to gamble" and have most likely never granted the United States government - or any other government - any authority to restrict it. As far as I'm concerned, any law restricting gambling is invalid, null and void and should be ignored.
Basically it goes back to the old saw... "We have exactly as much freedom as we are willing to demand and as we can defend."
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
How are they going to stop all that online stock market speculation?
Don't try to tell me that the return on investment is guaranteed, or that business ventures aren't a gamble, because they are. 90% of businesses fail in their first year.
Anyone want to bet that online casinos will be targeted by this law, but Wall Street will remain strangely exempt?
I don't see a legitimate reason for gambling to be illegal. If someone wants to gamble, smoke, shoot themselves in the foot, or whatever, let them. And no, you don't have to force everyone else to support a safety net for them in the form of (publicly funded) rehab or health care. As for the "think of the children" bunch: if they have kids whom it's negatively impacting, take them and give them to someone who can take care of them.
Why should the U.S. allow foreign companies to suck money out of the U.S. economy
Because that's what The People want? Does there need to be any other reason?
Remember, government derives its power from the just consent of the governed.
I'm frankly surprised that the credit card lobby didn't kick up a bigger fuss on this. They stand to lose millions in user fees and interest. While I think anyone that gambles on credit is a fool, the credit companies were happy to enable such behaviour.
Let me just remind you something: internet is worldwide. Internet is not *american*. So, if online casinos would need US government license to operate (and pay taxes), so, should I presume that online casinos also need brazilian license and, of course, pay brazilian taxes?
ilex paraguariensis for all
So, if I pay $15 a month to subscribe to a massively multiplayher game where I get some amount of starter virtual currency, and the game has as a subset of functionality a mechanism through with I can gamble my virtual currency, and a mechanism exists to transfer that virtual currency into real currency through eBay sales or some process officially allowed or even serviced by the massively multiplayer game maker, is my subscription illegal?
5 will get you 10 they won't enforce it.
They'll have the legit online gaming community look after it for them -- the big casino companies, who have the most to gain from this. I bet you don't have to look very far to see who really was behind this. It's not about money laundering, it's about a big business keeping it's slice of the pie.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Since the bill will make it illegal for credit card companies and other financial institutions to be involved in such transactions, it seems to be a refinement of target. Formerly the individual could be targeted, but that would be expensive and ineffective. Ten thousand charges could be brought forth without impacting the number of violations significantly.
If you shut down the payment options, you will greatly reduce the number of violators. It's an effective way of achieving their goal.
Rubbish. It's currently illegal to gamble on certain outcomes (sports, card games, etc.), while being legal to gamble on other outcomes (share prices, for example). It's a completely arbitrary distinction, that has no logical rationale. Either you believe that gambling is immoral and should be banned or you don't. To selectively allow some types of gambling while banning others is just bizarre.
Disclaimer: I make my income from online gambling, so I probably have a certain amount of bias. Currently very little of that is with US bookies, so this will have very little monetary impact on me. But it's still a stupid decision.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
This doesn't really matter all that much. It means that US banks and credit card companies can't process the transactions. Companies like Firepay are off shore banks that can accept lawful deposits from US banks and then in turn handle gambling related transactions.
The law doesn't impose any penalties to gamblers so there's nothing illegal about taking any winnings by using the offshore banks to funnel those winnings back to a US account.
The problem is it's just harder now for the average player to make a deposit. I think in the long run this will be better for the above average players by keeping the degenerate gamblers out.
Hello Sir, My name is Jacob, and I am a wealthy businessman from the United States. New laws by my government have removed my freedom to gamble my money online. I have $40 millions that I would like to use for to gamble, but unfortunately may not use a United States banking account. If you would send me your bank account information I will deposit this funds. I need you to transfer this funds to an online gambling site. In return, you may keep $2 million. I selected you especially for this task. Please reply quickly, my gambling habit is giving me fits!!! Sincerely, Jacob Rich U.S. Businessman Moneys! Come rollin' in!!!
You're looking at the problem in reverse. The reason these companies are off-shore is because of the laws in place by the US. Its like me trying to open up a winery during the prohabition. It'd be plain stupid. Why would these people host gambling sites in America if its been illegal from the get go? If they're pissed off that the economy is loosing money, then they could change the laws which would encourage local gambling. They won't so this is the only viable solution to plug the hole.
Bye!
cash gambling is illegal in japan, but guess what pachinko does?
you purchase and play with small b.b. sized metal balls, and the payout is in balls.
you can exchange these for a number of prizes, including small tokens.
within a block of the pachinko parlor, there is a shop that buys said tokens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko
it's already been done.
personally, though, I'm glad online gambling is illegal. i live in Vegas. the local casinos pay most of the taxes.
Its not as much gambling as it is a game. Now slots and stuff are made to take your money, but a good poker player can make a living.
God spoke to me.
There's already something like this in place for at least one poker site. You buy a phone card from them (it's a valid phone card) and then you transfer the minutes into your account for money.
If you win and want to cash out, they mail you a check.
The issue is that online gambling is not regulated by the US or US states and is in competition with US companies.
I think this legislation has much more to do with competition than morality...
Ever hear of a lobbyist named Abramoff? He bought and sold politicians to protect his gambling clients... he got caught but our corrupt politicians are continuing the game.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
According to http://www.polocenter.com/travel/lotteriesus.htm there are currently 37 states that allow gambling. They call it a 'lottery' but it's really just a glorified numbers racket. That doesn't stop the states from operating them, now does it?
If the federal government is in the business of outlawing gambling, they should do it across the board. Otherwise, they should stick to matters within their charter - national defense, negotiating international treaties, and protecting interstate commerce.
Sounds like an ideal opportunity for organised crime.
Fine with me. The mob knows how to run things when it comes to gambling. Vegas was great under them. Just don't over extend your credit. ;-)
Mr. Joe Average could show up and get treated like royalty. My dad used to get comps walking into a casino just to use the rest room. The cocktail waitresses were TOTAL whores. It was great. :)
Then the soulless hotel corps took over, and I would not be suprised if they start charging you for the air you breathe in the hotel rooms. 6-5 payoff on a blackjack? Christ, just tie me down and rape me. It's more direct.
MBAs and politicians! Exterminate! Exterminate!
Why not just do what they do with Pachinko in Japan?
You buy some tokens, you play with the tokens to win more tokens, you spend those tokens to buy a thing - a special, completely worthless thing, that can only be bought at the game parlor. You go outside, turn the corner, and sell the thing to a shop which is bizarrely interested in the thing, and is more than happy to buy it from you. At the end of the day, this shop then sells these special things back to the Pachinko parlor, who restocks them.
[Z?]
Also, it wasn't a surprise that the legislation PASSED - the Port Security bill was getting passed, period. What IS surprising is that Frist managed to attach this to it. Democrats were trying hard to attach relevant amendments, like a measure to increase security of the rail transit system. These amendments were all rejected, yet Frist manages to get his "pander to the religious right" amendment attached? The mind boggles.
Anyhow, there's a good analysis of the bill reposted here, which includes:
What winnings?
Question everything
The fact that the NSA and IRS keep a close eye on all bank transactions between U.S. citizens and foreign banks to look for money-laundering?
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Peter Gibbons: I can't believe what a bunch of nerds we are. We're looking up "money laundering" in the dictionary.
Yeop.
While we're all so impressed that you're keeping track of our politics, rest assured most of us don't care what you have to say on the matter.
Keep in mind, as MANY have already posted and you apparently decided to ignore in your reading, online gambling is already illegal in the United States. Its been illegal for years and very possibily made so under a Democratic President and/or House and Senate. All they've begun to do now is apply pressure to the financial system that supports it.
Also since you've demonstrated you're so up-to-date on American politics I'm sure you know of the campaign funding by Brick-and-Mortar Casino lobbyists to both Democratic and Republican representatives. Who's votes, you could argue, were bought to destroy the infrastructure supporting online casinos.
So while I appreciate so much seeing your nose in our business, I'll vote for the best candidate for me and my state be it Democrat or Republican... not because of what some foreigner tries to tell me about the laws and statutes within my own country.
Whatever. You can thank the boundaries of the Interstate Commerce Clause for defanging this beast. Expect gambling sites to set up bank accounts in each of the states where online gambling is legal under state law, and direct all traffic from gamblers in a state to servers in that state. This accounts for most if not all states.
All this law does is make internet gambling sites shell out a few (hundred) thousand dollars for server upgrades and a minor software patch. Yippee.
This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
You're both kind of funny in the head. Here's the way I see it. You buy the T-shirts and collect lots of them. Then you become a regional rep for the T-shirt sales and tell others how they can buy the T-shirts from you and you add a few cents for handling. You also tell them that if they buy 1000 t-shirts from you, that they can then become a regional rep too. Have this happen about five or six time and you're a T-shirt mogul! Meanwhile you have tons of tokens to gamble away and you have your winnings converted to items of huge value. Ferraris, one million cans of chicken soup, a sky scraper... then you have those shipped here. Customs would have no idea what hit them and you'd be wealthy beyond your wildest dreams over and over again! (Not sure what to put here) PROFIT!!!
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Exactly. But apparently credit card companies don't have a right to process your payments to the casino.
This law does, however, bring up a point that I think needs to be addressed by a constitutional amendment: All bills should be reasonably related to a single subject. Also, politicians that tack an amendment like this on to an unrelated bill should be publicly tarred, feathered, and barred from office for life.
In spite of America's failings (the most obvious one about letting citizens own guns for the purpose of schoolyard shootings) I have to admire the balls Congress has in this situation. They just decimated the share value of a number of online gambling companies!
Too often governments fear bringing corporations down to size. There are a number of unethical industries that need to be nipped on the reproductive organs and it WILL mean a loss to the economy in terms of corporate valuations. Lately banking, telecommunications, and oil firms are just taking individuals and countries for a ride. The only ones who can stop it (the Governments) are the very same ones that profit in the back pocket from the illicit activity.
It takes a real man to lead a religion and not abuse his power. It takes a real government to lead a country and not abuse its power.
democracy simply does not work.
- Kent Brokman
Your logic is exactly what drove this thing, I'm certain. It's also a foolish notion, on the face of it.
If U.S. credit card companies can't collect U.S. payments for U.S.-based online gambling, then I guess we're about to see some explosive growth in their overseas divisions.
How is my Visa card, acquired in Britain from their European division, and not subject to this law, going to prevent me from gambling myself into bankruptcy in a (now) European-based online casino? Is the Justice Department going to put Visa out of business in the U.S. over this?
This law drains whatever tax benefit Internet gambling provides to the U.S., and guarantees growth for European and Asian business.
Shaw's Principle: Build a system even a fool could use, and only a fool would want to use it.
If this is new information to you my friend, I must ask you for which rock you're sleeping under. It seems like a very silent and lonely place. I have been searching for such a spot.
I'm voting in the November elections. How about you?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
It's not gambling, it's investing. You're actually selling something: the right to buy oil. The value of the thing you're selling is determined by an actual, real-world object: once it all settles out a real barrel of oil actually goes somewhere.
You'd get into all kinds of trouble, not because it's gambling but because it's investing. The SEC would want to have a word with you. You'd have to explain how you're planning on tracking all those lottery tickets, when they can just bypass you as the middle man and invest directly. And you'd better be prepared to fill out a lot of forms to make sure you're not skimming more than you say you will.
You're right that options are closer to gambling than regular stocks are, because what you're selling there is "risk". The real purpose of options is to manage risk. Some farmer has a bunch of oranges coming in, and he'd like to sell the juice today for a set price rather than risk the weather ruining his crop. You buy the option; you're assuming the risk and possibly getting the reward. You're helping some farmer out.
Unlike gambling risk, though, the risk isn't artificial, and the margin isn't going to the house. This is weather risk, or risk that they won't find oil, or other kinds of real-world risk on real-world objects. It's not for fun, the way gambling is. It's serious business, and farmers would be a lot worse off if it weren't for agricultural commodities hedging. (It applies just as well to spreading the risk of other investments, but it's clearest with agricultural ones.)
Offshore internet gambling isn't taxed. There's the reason they want to block it.
That used to be the case, until the B&M casinos saw how many people were going to Vegas for the World Series of Poker after winning online satellites. The whole poker boom, which B&M casinos are making a lot of money off of, would never have happened without online poker.
Remember the days when Republicans were the party of fiscal responsibility?
My version s/steal/gamble/:
-----
As such, I will say that free people have a "right to steal" and have most likely never granted the United States government - or any other government - any authority to restrict it. As far as I'm concerned, any law restricting stealing is invalid, null and void and should be ignored.
-----
I'm closest to a libertarian in philosophy. I too do not like rules restricting gambling (along with most "victimless" crimes, e.g. seat belt laws). However, your argument is so generic as to be pointless, IMO.
-Jeff
Please learn the difference between a dissenting opinion and a troll before you moderate.
Actually, the issues are:
That the government is not my mommy; ethically the government has no right to say what I can do with my own money until I directly use that money to hurt another citizen or it is extremely clear that I intend to do so; legally the government has no right to say anything at all with regard to gambling, because I never gave it any such right, nor have I authorized anyone to do so for me. The government is out of control, operating illegitimately, unconstitutionally, unethically, and "compliance enforcement" is in fact coercion backed by enormous, life-ruining power.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
As a Canadian, we've learned the hard way that free trade = americans trade for free. Numerous appeals panels over the past decade have consecutively proven that Canada does not unfairly subsidize our softwood lumber, yet there's a huge tariff imposed at the border. We won all the appeals, and guess what? US policy is basically 'you can't make us stop'. WTO takes years (decades?) to allow for counter-duties and tariffs, which essentially peanlises your own citizens for unfair trade practices.
So while American lumber continues to destroy spotted owl habitat, all the cheap + BETTER QUALITY lumber (words of the US housing industry, not mine) remains unharvested. Congrats american consumer - you lose too!
The US always has, and always will, be a big bully on the global economic scene. The question now is whether that advantage trickles down to the american consumer, or if the new robber barons can re-establish their hoovervilles.
John Maynard Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?"
it's all about who wins and who loses. all of these gambling companies that lose because of this are offshore, a lot in the UK i believe. the winners are inbred social conservatives who will celebrate this with a game of bingo at the local church (laff!)
american congresscritters are not elected by british businessmen, so the heck with them. if it were american businessmen that stood to lose because of this, it would have never passed. but as it is, american businessmen can't start these sort of businesses because of laws pushed by said inbred social conservatives to begin with... inbred social conservatives usually from areas of the country with riverboat casinos. the hypocrisy of it all. it's potectionism of outdated gambling modes: las vegas, atlantic city: they serve to lose from online gambling
so this isn't about morality after all in the end folks, it's about business, and this whole bill is a giant stinking turd of protectionism. protecting us all right into luddite obsolescence, where british companies will profit from what american compnies should be profitting from in the first place!
why don't we just shorcircuit this entire retarded effort by the congresscritters and just become amish. then we will be protected from the evils of electricity too. let the british profit from evil electricity insted. pffft
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
So we need to federally fund research into a TIME MACHINE!!!
Then we can retroactively take screwed up adults from thier parents!
0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
. . .we need to put some teeth in the founding documents, I guess.
That was supposed to be the Second Amendment, but mommy doesn't like us playing with toys that might put somebody's eye out.
Especially if that somebody might be mommy.
KFG
If this had ANYTHING to do with concern for the weakest and poorest members of society, then we should start by banning the lottery, and for that matter, predatory tactics used by banks and credit card companies.
After the dot com crash, my business failed and I went largely unemployed for almost two years. I went from having stellar credit and over $50,000 in cash in my bank account to ruined credit and about $40,000 in debt, with interest continuing to accrue. Not a week goes by that I don't receive several offers in the mail for "pre-approved" credit cards, offering minimal $300 credit limits in exchange for annual fees of as much as $80, interest rates of 21%, increasing to 30% if I so much as make a single late payment or go a penny over my limit, and acknowledging that they can increase my interest rates at any time if they see fit, even if I am making timely payments to their account.
All this, while Congress voted to restrict my ability to declare bankruptcy and make a new start. Notice how crooked companies got no new restrictions on their ability to go bankrupt and swindle millions from their customers, investors, and customers.
I have no interest in gambling, but it is insulting to suggest that this anti-gambling law has ANYTHING to do with concern for the little guy. This is all about protecting THEIR TURF..
We are.
- Highly irresponsible Republicans
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
But if you purchase a lovely T-shirt from the caymen islands for $1000 on your credit card, you get online gambling credits free with your purchase!
Seriously, the law won't actually do anything to stop gambling, but it will acomplish two very important things:
1. You can know that your elected representatives are "doing something" about gambling! It is very, very, very important that your elected officials are seen as "doing something" about a "problem".
2. The laws are probably written loosly and vaugly enough to allow the government to arbitrarily punish any credit card company they want. This is good for politicians, as credit card companies have a lot of money to give to political campaigns in exchange for protection.
Hmmm, let me guess: the Libertarian project to 'take over' a state by getting masses of Libertarians to move there and vote as a bloc, has failed. Your new secret plan is to take over the prison system by convincing all of the Libertarians to break laws willy-nilly and get incarcerated. I doubt that you will be able to actually 'take over' the prisons (they won't let you take your guns to prison with you), but the LP could become the largest prison gang.
Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain