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Socializing For The Win?
The Living Fractal notes: "Yahoo! Business has an article about workplace socializing. Apparently, those who drink alcohol and socialize make more money on average."
According to the article:
"Regular drinkers make 10% to 14% more money than those who do not drink, according to the study, conducted by the Journal of Labor Research, published quarterly by the Department of Economics at George Mason University, and the Reason Foundation, a Los Angeles-based think tank."
Fractal wonders: "This article spawns a few questions. Do those 'regular drinkers' end up spending that extra 10-14% on booze? Who here is a social drinker? Finally, have you noticed this in your workplace?"
Sure, it may be easier to go and have a drink to catch up, but would someone who chose non-alcoholic drink when they socialised make less money? Would someone who drank alone at home make more money than someone who drank tea alone at home?
Who in the company has the most opportunity to socialize and drink on the job? If you work in a normal office, most likely the managers and sales departments. It's part of their job to work with customers and engage them not only professionally but also socially. "Greasing the wheels" of business, so to speak.
So you, in your little basement office with the desk pushed all the way to the wall, get to churn out KLOCs until your fingers cramp up with CTS for a fixed salary. They, in their windowed corner offices with lovely assistants and fresh flowers, meet with customers and hammer out deals over a fifth of Wild Turkey and get paid a commission of their generated revenue. When you get to selling million dollar contracts, those margins add up really fast.
Yeah, no one told you life was going to be this way. Your job's a joke, you're broke, your love life's DOA. Shoulda studied management, eh?
Perhaps theres just as much of a correlation between non drinking and making less money. As a college student who doesn't drink I also don't feel that much of a need to get the highest paying job available. Once I get all these loans payed off it doesn't matter to me whether my car is brand new or 10 years old. Perhaps it has to do with a desire for worldly things, whether it's good times while drunk, or lots of money to buy stuff.
Of course the boss' drinking buddy gets the corner office. You didn't actually think that people get promoted because of their good performance did you? If anything, it's the other way around, the bad performers get promoted so they can do less harm.
How we know is more important than what we know.
On the contrary, I have the highest regard for salespeople. I don't have much regard for people who look down on them as if they don't contribute anything to the company or are simply overhead that helps sell engineering that would is so good it essentially sells itself.
However, I would like to point out that in the typical small office, when a salesperson fails the whole company suffers and engineers can get laid off right along with an underperforming salesperson.
Well, the other night I got invited to a party, But I stayed home instead. Just me and my pal Johnny Walker, And his brothers Black and Red. And we drank alone, yeah, with nobody else. We drank alone, yeah, with nobody else. Yeah, you know when I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself.
Some people are like slinkys. They're useless, but it puts a smile on your face to push them down the stairs.
I myself am a wine drinker, but I have never sat and had a glass of wine with a coworker. I do socialize a fair amount with my coworkers while at work, and some of us go out to lunch as a group, but no alcohol is served (mainly because it is against policy).
Then again, I work in advertising (I'm a graphic artist/web developer). I hang out with sales people a fair amount, and we all know sales people tend to be a bit off the statistical rocker.. :P
"Better to be vulgar than non-existent" -Bev Henson
I spend all day drinking and never make a cent.
Property is theft.
get trashed and tell their boss what they really think... about the boss' daughter. She's hot, it should be a complement, but no, mr. 40oz and my tuckus get dumped on the curb to pour some out for the newly deceased homie; my job.
Sure, good things come out of a relaxed social environment, but so do horrible things... pros and cons to be weighed carefully.
The other 10% of the decisions get made over drinks and more ciggies, I suspect...
Here's to wealth! So maybe alcohol is key to success in mainstream business, but it looks like acid is the drug for you if you want to make it in the tech industry.
------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
Perhaps those that make money then begin drinking socially, rather than the other way around.
Managers always drink on the job and have more then to talk then normal workers. ;)
Great Intellect...
Correlation is not causality. There's three factors here: drinking or not, being social or not, and making more or not.
Are you making more because you're being social? It would not be surprising - if you're social you have a greater contact network, and you make a better early impression, so you'll tend to end up in better (higher paying) positions over time.
Are you social because you make more money? Perhaps to a small degree (don't discount it entirely), but on the face of it it should not be nearly as strong an effect as the opposite - and you can argue that with money comes power and there's no need to be nice anymore so you'd be just as likely to become less social instead.
Do you drink because you're social? Quite probably. Being social means getting along with people, and that includes spending time with people and doing what they do. And not infrequently social gatherings include drinking.
On the hand, does drink promote sociality? Yes, it does. For most people, moderate amounts does loosen inhibitions and relax the mind, making alcohol the renowned social grease it is.
So you can argue that if you're more social you make more. And you become more social by drinking, and if you're more social you're more likely to drink as well.
I don't think anybody would seriously try to argue that alcohol directly is connected to earning power. I'd like to hear a coherent argument in favour though.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
If I only spend 10-14% on alcohol, I'd feel rich. Does this count as my first step?
As a college student, you probably don't even have an idea yet how much money things really cost. Once you are out of college, many things get more expensive FAST.
- you don't want to live in a student hall forever
- you realize that you need some savings for retirement
- you don't want to call daddy if you need a new computer
- health insurance is much more expensive (students get special rates where I live)
- girl friend and family planning cost money
- jobs suck, so you might consider having your own company. Startups cost money, too
- jobs suck, wait how you feel if the clueless guy next to you makes five times as much money as you do
on and on...
You don't have to strive for a life in vanity to appreciate having money.
That's probably one of the most outdated bitter views I've ever read.
Most 'execs' these days don't have assistants anymore. That role was killed to save money and now the role falls between them and their line managers. In the rare case where a PA does still exist, she's normally shared among 4+ execs.
Just one last question - where would your job be without those deals and those sales? Ever think that maybe some people hate the whole sales process, but they do it anyway because it's their job? How much fun do you think it is for a woman being pawed by a customer and not being able to say anything because it would cost her the sale? How much fun do you think it is for a family man to have potential clients oggling women and behaving badly, and not be able to say anything about it because it would cost the sale?
On the flip side, I've noticed that since not just going to work and going home, but staying around once or twice a month to socialise, my salary has increased by 30%. Just making contacts and networking is far more than learning some new technology.
If you're right (and I think you probably are), then I guess that how much you earn is less correlated with how much you drink, it's more correlated with how much you engage in social activity - and the forms of social activity will vary from culture to culture. It would be interesting, for example, to see whether these results hold in places where alcohol consumption is supposedly frowned upon (like Utah or Saudi Arabia).
Deal with reality - the world as it is - rather than ideality - the world as you would like it to be.
I mean, by Australian standards a "social drinker" is probably an alcoholic in America and a teetotaller in Ireland ;).
On a more serious note, it's not hard to see why there would be a correleation between socialising and improved job performance. Even ignoring the obvious schmoozing and brown-nosing possibilities, if you socialise more with people from work, you're far more likely to know more about how the business works, its current problems (and successes) and modify your work habits appropriately to address the problems and/or act on the strengths, thus making you a greater asset to the business and more likely to be prompted/paid more.
With that said, any attempts to attach a causative relationship between drinking and income is working on *very* shaky ground IMHO.
Thats it I'm getting an MBA on top of my IT bachelors.
"To be is to do." --Socrates
"To do is to be." -- Aristotle
"Do-Be-Do-Be-Do..." --Sinatra
I have seen this happen where I work, but isn't it a bit backwards?
I hardly ever drink, so I turn up to work on time and am alert, ready to do my (complicated) job. One of the other guys turns up with a hangover, feeling really bad and spends most of the day sat in his chair reading email and Wikipedia. Yet, because he spends more time socialising with the boss, he gets more perks and money.
Surely someone who is a reliable worker should be rewarded. I suppose it's a bit like how tall people tend to do better.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
just one last question - where would your job be without those deals and those sales?
Where would their job be if they had nothing to sell?
Although I see your point, I think the main issue is to strike a balance between how rewards are distributed.
And - my highly subjective view - generally sales makes more than their fare share of it.
If, say, a coder makes something that has a high impact on company productivity he might go - probably - unnoticed. If a sales guy/gal makes a big sale, (s)he normally is a hero. That is, at least, what I tend to see.
Disclaimer: I'm in the academics "business".
As a junior java developer for an investment bank in London I see there is certainly a drinking culture here. Its sort of team building to go out for a few pints with guys from work. Aside from that it can never hurt to mix with you managers and colleagues in any kind of social situation outside the office. Its just that drinking is the easiest one to do as there is a bar somewhere near every office here. If senior management know your face and have had a few laughs with you, they're more likely to respect your views in the office and reward you on bonus day. The best gossip and 'career advice' are usually heard outside the office anyway. It might not be the healthiest or cheapest pasttime but at least its better than golf...
Apparently, those who drink alcohol and socialize make more money on average.
Funny, I would have worded it differently:
Those who make more money on average drink alcohol and socialize more.
Is drinking causes making more money
or
Is making money causes more drinking ?
The study does not say what is causing what. Only that there is a correlation. I think that having more money makes it easier to have a drink, not the other way around.
HAHAHahah. You obviously have aspirations to be a sales person one day :)
Don't believe the hype. The original poster was quite correct to be so bitter. The chasm is still very wide. I know the arguments about sales putting their ass on the line to bring in huge money -- but what about the developers who agree to deliver a massive money project in short space of time? Their ass is equally on the line, but they get basic salary while the sales guy gets a new BMW 330.
It is because the directors can indentify part of their own character int the sales people more easily (mostly loose morals, loud mouths, sharp suits). They like to look after their own.
Or maybe you just work for a good company of the kind I didn't think existed. That would be a true rarity.
Spoken like a true salesman. I have no pity for people who hate their jobs in this climate of record low unemployment. I hate my job some days but at the end of those days I realize I can still get another one if it bothers me enough -- and then I don't hate it so much.
I also have no motivation to seek a higher salary based on anything other than job performance. Everything else reeks of ass-kissery.
To get paid more you need to be promoted, and it's a fact of working life that to be promoted you need to be liked or at least known to those that do the promoting. It's a harsh fact, but a fact non-the-less, that if you only ever see someone behind there desk your not going to relate to them as much as the person you socialise after work with. And then when you get a choice to promote one or the other it isn't unfair to promote the one you *actually* know.
http://skeptobot.blogspot.com/ - A site for the Renaissance man and woman
Socializing FTW!1!!
It looks like the comments are making their way to the front page now...
All the way from digg. (buries head)
Most linux users don't know this, but the man pages were named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fsck'ing hates noobs!
"Yahoo! Business has an article about drinking. Apparently, those who make more money, drink alcohol and socialize more on average."
It's shocking to think that people may actually not drink because they don't have the money for it, but you can't argue with Yahoo! They! are! very! serious! about! this!
Just because there's a correlation doesn't imply there's necessarily a direct cause/effect relationship. There are significant cultural differences between income brackets, and (assuming they did the study in North America) one of them is that the lower middle class income brackets do less moderate social drinking, possibly because they are closer to and more aware of the lower-class bracket, wherein drinking is mostly the province of boorish drunkards, whose habits and behavior are distasteful. Alcohol in the lower income brackets is therefore associated with a lot of unpleasantness. This is not absolute, but it's *mostly* true, at least in the Midwestern US.
The upper income brackets are another matter, and I'm not just talking about the CEO class. Once you get up into yuppee territory (more or less) you start finding people whose experience with alcohol is more moderate; they may order a glass of this or that with their dinner, for instance. In that culture, social drinking is less strongly associated with drunkenness and *much* less strongly associated with retching on oneself, being arrested, domestic violence, and the various other forms of yuckiness that seem to go hand-in-hand with alcohol in the lower income brackets. Additionally, there are higher-quality beverages available at pricepoints they can afford, so the alcohol can actually taste good, and consequently there are reasons to drink it other than getting drunk. In the lower income brackets you're pretty much looking at cheap American beer, which is pretty much only good for getting drunk. (Indeed, the way some of that stuff smells, I think I'd have to *be* drunk to *want* to put it in my mouth.)
So there's a cultural difference between the income brackets when it comes to alcohol, and I'd chalk up the correlation they found to that. Going out and drinking isn't necessarily going to get you that raise.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
"Being social means getting along with people, and that includes . . . doing what they do."
You were correct with your statement up until that last point. Being a social person does not mean you have to do what other people do. Believing that you must do what other people do because it makes you a social person is a form of self-inflicted peer pressure.
In short, there is a not-so-subtle difference between being anti-social, a social conformist and a social independent.
Most sales folks I know are on commission. Their base salary is not very high. They work to land the big money deals not so much to be the 'hero', but because that is where the bulk of their salary comes from.
If it so happens the deal is big enough, they may be able to buy a new BMW from the commission.
But if they don't land the deal, the don't make the money.
So basically they traded a guaranteed salary level for the chance to make more on commission. There's nothing stopping developers from asking their management for the same deal:
I'll take a pay cut if you give me a commission based on the sales of the units I deliver, less the operational costs.
Ask and see how they respond.
I also have no motivation to seek a higher salary based on anything other than job performance. Everything else reeks of ass-kissery.
Nice to know I'm not the only one. If social networking and ass-kissing is what it takes to move up the corporate ladder, then I'll just stay on the ground.
"The amount of intelligence on this planet is a constant. The population is growing." -Cole's Axiom
Even though you are bitter, you do have a point. The claim is that drinkers make more money. Perhaps its the other way around, people who make more money can afford to drink and socialize more. Of course this socialization can ultimately make them part of the "good old boy" network and get them more money. But I think it all starts with being of the upper class in the first place.
On board ship, a lot of networking is done on the fantail/in the smokepit. Talking over rumors, ship's plans, who's doing what, letting your superiors bum cigarettes... It's the one place onboard that you really can interact socially with your chain of command. On shore, a lot of the same thing goes on during at after work gatherings at bars, though not as much as when I got into the Navy 20 years ago. Drinking isn't encouraged as it once was... We've come a long way from when I was chastised for not tapping the keg at 9:00 am.
Or people who bust their ass to make that 10-14% more have no social life outside work, therefore are more likely to socialize with coworkers.
-
Getting your boss drunk tends to make them be more intimate with you (not in the sexual sense) and they feel they can trust you more. They trust you more, so they feel safe promoting you or giving you a raise.
People hate the guy who doesn't do squat at the office yet is very charismatic and sociable and rises to the top. But what they don't realize is that being that sociable can actually be a lot of work. Especially across your entire network. You have to go out to lunch all the time to catch up with people...go to bars at night...throw get togethers...etc.
For an introvert like me, that's a lot of friggin work. But you know what? I recognize that that is how the game is played, and I play it, and play it well. And it has rewarded me. So I guess there's that.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
For example, did they control for gender or other sources of salary bias? Did they control for socializing but drinking seltzer?
udin
If you can't handle being around any people, typically the problem is with you, not them.
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
Yes, the problem is with me. My problem is that I socialize with people only if I enjoy their company, not just because they have the power to increase my salary. It's a problem I'm proud to have.
"The amount of intelligence on this planet is a constant. The population is growing." -Cole's Axiom
> Apparently, those who drink alcohol and socialize make more money on average.
Uh, I think you meant:
"Apparently, those who make more money on average tend to drink alcohol and socialize."
Using the original false logic, we could also say:
Apparently, those who host huge parties at their mansions make more money on average. So y'all better go buy your dang mansions and throw a party if you want to make more money!
It's all about face time with the decision makers. You get face time, you get promoted. You don't get face time, you don't exist. Managers don't promote people they don't know about. If the company is doing well becuase there are a bunch of good workers in cubes working 7 to 5, there will always be a couple of personable, social [smokers/drinkers] that end up hanging with a few folks in management after hours (you know, while you're tending the family). Among the idle chit-chat, they're going to talk about what's going on in the office, and I promise that they're not going to relate that they find the coolest videos on youtube every morning. They'll say what great things are happening, and what they're doing, and mention how well they get along with a bunch of the staff. So who's going to get a promotion? The guy in the cube that the boss has never seen except from a podium in 100 person staff meetings, or the one that that he has taked with and, by the brownnoser's admission, clearly knows whats going on in the office and knows the crew?
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Ross, is that you?
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
Nerds, by definition, are social outcasts and often display the body langauge of a nervous creature. Often the persons who are making the decisions about who gets hired and how much they get paid are people who see this nervousness as a sign of weakness and therefore assume the dominant role in this Employer/Prospective Employee relationship.
If the prospective employee is a nerd then it is likely that they have been conditioned from past encounters to adopt the submissive role in short-lived relationships such as this.
Given that this occurs then the dominant party will leverage their power such that the 'nerd' is more likely to end up with a lesser wage/salary than that of a 'normal' well socialised human being.
It's like you're always stuck in second gear...
You're not only not alone, I doubt you're in the minority. I'm quite happy on the ground floor with you- I wouldn't take a promotion into management if it doubled my pay. Not worth the stress and unhappiness.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
My friends don't have a theme song. What are "the Friends" of which you speak? Quakers? I don't know any Quakers.
Man, you really need that seminar!
If, say, a coder makes something that has a high impact on company productivity he might go - probably - unnoticed. If a sales guy/gal makes a big sale, (s)he normally is a hero. That is, at least, what I tend to see.
There is one significant place where this is the opposite of the truth. The darling of the business world. Google. But it's all lip service. We talk about emulating Google at my corporation, but it always comes out as, "Lots of good ideas there - but we need more management control, and we can't shift the power/compensation structure."
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Their function is essentially alcohol-powered, and they generally make a LOT of money.
include $sig;
1;
You call that bitter, yet you think salespeople deserve a medal because of sexual harassment? I mean, wtf?
The problem is that programmers aren't bitter enough. Salespeople understand the nature of the world, and they start with a predatory instinct. They know it is always about the money.
If you aren't making more than any of your salespeople, either accept that you just aren't that great a programmer, or do something about it. If you are making more than your top salespeople, expect to be out of a job soon, 'cause your company is tanking.
It's like sports stars - they make an insane amount because they have a perfect measure of performance. You can't rank programming ability so easily, or even measure it with all the variables due to the importance of experience with specific technology.
I am pretty much a weekend alcoholic. Meaning, that while I don the black/gray pants and striped shirt Monday-Friday and work for the Man at a bank, Friday night comes and I party like its 1999 all weekend. I spend my summers doing the Hamptons thing, and often go on "party vacations" to places like Cancun and Ibiza.
/. pedants? I can almost guarantee you that you won't be finding them at a bar tonight, nor telling jokes to the CEO. As such, fun sociable people make a lot more friends, and have a larger social network, and are better liked among their coworkers.
Here is my opinion:
People who like to drink are waaay more fun and social than those that don't. You know those crabby grammar nazi's and other annoying
Also, another aspect to this is that people who are out at bars and drinking all the time can generally afford to. I have had a few roommates who sat home on the weekend because they couldn't really afford to do anything else. Particularly in NYC, people who go out to bars are the yuppie fairly well off types.
Yeah, no one told you life was going to be this way. Your job's a joke, you're broke, your love life's DOA. Shoulda studied management, eh?
I think I liked the original version of that song better. This one doesn't even rhyme right...
Comment of the year
Let's see...
* The asshat in the office who never does anything and sucks is less likely to come out with the co-workers.
* The ones who go out probably enjoy the company & respect their coworkers.
* The completion of a long hard won project, or extra hours slogging away at the office is usually celebrated by a few rounds at the local pub.
I agree with you, but... that's not the way the world works. (Understandable, as you're in academics, so I'll let it slide.)
As a coder, it wouldn't matter if you spent your whole day finger-painitng on your basement cube wall - provided the sales team manages to sell their product image (NOT the product). In a slightly exagerated sense, it only matters that you're on payroll and they can say "we've got X number of programmers working on this project, it should be done by June!" or something like that.
Yeah, they need to actually produce a product if they don't want to be sued into non-existence (or simply go bankrupt), but that product doesn't have to be very good, or actually be half of what the sales team said it would be. They've already got the clients' money - why would they give a damn about anything else, except for the possibility of acquiring more of that money?
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
To paraphrase Adam Smith: you're salary reflects how much society feels you are worth.
In other words, there is no such thing as "fair" distribution of rewards; the rewards are distributed by the marketplace. If you aren't making as much as someone else, that is because they are more valuable than you. The difficulty of a job does not equate to how valuable it is. I was once paid $5/hr to clean septic tanks in the Florida sun. It was incredibly shitty work. But, that doesn't mean I'm entitled to a CEO's salary.
As a coder it is important to realize that we are no different than the factory workers of the industrial revolution. We are replaceable parts. We are expendible. On the other hand, socializing is difficult. Not everyone can make friends; not everyone can close a deal. Yeah, it sucks that the guy with the corner office is an idiot and gets paid 10X the average whiz-bang coder. But who is really the idiot? The guy making 6 figures? Or you and I working so that idiot can make six figures?
Those that drink or smoke with the boss know that everyone's "roles" get dropped for just a little while. This tends to have a very humanizing effect. Even if you make a little bit of an ass of yourself, your boss is more likely to see you as a person instead of just an employee. This comes in handy when you fuck-up, come in late, miss a dead-line, etc. Everyone knows that people make mistakes and now your boss knows you're a people...
That really is a narrow minded view on the subject. The truth is I do well for myself by simply going out with other heads in my industry and discussing matters of interest and the common ground we often share, work.
If you feel that way maybe you should reconsider where you work. I say that because I have been in environments where I didn't feel as rewarded for my efforts, and often times that was because I didn't mesh well with the other workers. The fact of the matter is, I do a damn fine job. Recognition is given to me for that job; and for those that matter to find out more about me sometimes a night out at the pub is required.
Life isn't always fair, and sometimes there is that lucky SOB who isn't worth the air he/she breathes. However to assume that all people doing well for themselves enjoying life are those people isn't a fair assesment. Your return is more than likely equal to what you put in. I know some of you who read this may be intraverts and to deal with people in social situations can be enormously painful. The truth is, there are a million things people do a day that are outside of their natural comfort zone. If you want to cry about not going anywhere in life but you aren't putting forth the hustle to get where you need/want to be I say you need to get a grip and look at what you could be doing not what is being done to you.
As I said before, I've been shat upon more than one time in more than one company. So I started consulting, really getting my name and face out and focused on industries I would be interested in breaking into. Guess what, within a matter of 6 months I had people calling me all the time with job offers before I finally took the position I am in now. The point I'm trying to make is, I put the time in and I took control of my life. Has drinking helped me from it's effect, no. Has drinking helped me by putting me in situations that gave me opportunities, yes. However there are still plenty of occasions where the person I am with is enjoying their microbrew or what have you while I sip on a nice tall glass of coke. Social networking is the key here, not the drinking itself.
For anyone interested, I'm an ENF/TP personality type, my primary hurdle in life is planning and maintaining a routine and staying focused. However as painful as it can be, I do it when it's required. The job I'm in now accomidates my personality type, maybe you need to find one that fits yours. I mean jesus, can you even hear this all the way back in the 80s?
You've got a good point there.
To all you college party boys, I bet you like going on spring break with your pals and camping on the beach and chasing skirt. Isn't it funny, though, how all the really hot girls seem to be floating around out of reach on some old douchebag's boat, or partying on the deck of some old douchebag's private oceanfront house?
Well, if you put down the bong and the bottle, tackle a high-paying major, make it through college in four years with good grades, work hard and save for eight or ten frugal years after college, stay single, and stay in shape, you can go there with a couple of buddies and your 42 foot cabin cruiser and BE the old douchebag nailing the smoking hot college chicks.
All of womens' prattle about "soulmates" and "true love conquers all" goes out the window when they get the idea that they might be able to latch on to a rich man. A man's looks, personality, sense of humor and kindliness really don't matter if he has a fat enough wallet. If you play your cards right in your twenties, you can be bagging the hottest bimbos all through your 30's and 40's. Even into your 50's if you are rich and lecherous enough.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
No kidding!
(no the original poster, just figured i'd chime in) :-)
I'm an IT contractor. I'm *always* in the position of being in a job where I'll be laid off in the next month or three (maybe 6 if I'm really lucky).
And sometimes I don't even get a desk of my own or even a basement. Sometimes I have to provide all that myself.
But besides all that, what kind of job security does a full-time position provide in this day and age anyway? Isn't that really an illusion for most folks?
Shouldn't we be able to quantify this stuff by now? I can't even aspire to being an armchair economist, but shouldn't it be possible to quantify whether or not a CEO is actively producing money for their company?
If they can quantify and measure non-tangible production on the part of the engineers, surely it would be possible to see if a CEO is worth their seven figure salary...
Most 'execs' these days don't have assistants anymore. That role was killed to save money and now the role falls between them and their line managers.
I'll never understand that. To save $30k a year we're going to make the $200k a year employees book their own flights and arrange meetings. Not to mention the opportunity cost of that employee trying to figure out how to use Exchange to setup a meeting.
Bring back the secretaries to do this work! Yeah they might sit around for 50% of the day but they are immediately accessable to do work.
The book "Slack" has a great section on this.
The producers on the other hand are far down the pipe, have no idea exactly how much their contribution is getting for the company and the real stuff they do is quality, not quantity, so they can not easily measure and prove their value added. I
End Result: Sales gets compensated for significantly more than their value in any company with a good product and too little in any company that is just an 'also ran'.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Charles Wyble System Engineer
Customers talk to each other.
If you repeatedly over promise and under deliver noone will even talk to your sales force.
A software companies reputation is it's beggist asset/liability.
Would you take on EDS's reputation for any amount of money? The only way they ever get contracts is thru influence peddling. In the long run they are doomed. Even fortune 500s and government agencys are'nt stupid enough to keep sending them money for nothing forever (though the process is very slow).
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Is there any other kind?
Seriously!
Your point is pure BS. Women look for good hunters same as we look for good breeders (wide hips, big tits). It's hard wired into ALL women. Which is'nt to say they are all over the top 'gold diggers' ready to fuck fossils (but not for free).
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'