Slashdot Mirror
IT and Divorce?
frank_tudor asks: "I am graduate student and work as a web developer. I am also getting a divorce and I have a son caught in the middle.
I believe my profession had a part in it. For my graduate thesis I am writing a paper about Dads who work in the computer industry, divorce and custody. I think our industry causes a high rate of divorce but I need some help from the Slashdot community.
My questions are: How many of you computer Dads have also gone through divorce and have retained either half or full custody of your children? Do you think your job had something to do with it? What were some of your hardest challenges and are your kids happy?"
IT didn't cause your divorce. Stop trying to look for external causes when they were internal. My Dad worked in IT and my parents are still married, nearly 40 years now.
Aren't you worried that, in light of your personal life issues, this thesis might come across a little...I dunno...biased? Just a tad?
Unpleasantries.
The first step? My wedding next year.
Think of the Children; Sleep with your Sister
It was a couple patches ago when my wife filed for divorce. I'll never forget the day because that night, my epic tier two helm piece dropped and I won it for only 150 DKP. I don't think I'll ever understand why she did it. I was by her side the entire time she was being charged with child abuse. I know she never abused our son because I was in the other room on TeamSpeak when the alleged beating occurred and I didn't hear any screams except those of my guildmates dying from Nefarion. I know I should have attended the custody hearings for our son but the only night of the week I don't raid on is Tuesdays and the judge refused to move the dates. Call me crazy, but I never saw it coming.
... it would probably fail miserably with "I don't want to be a nerd like you, dad!"
Yep, the only reason she left me is because I'm in the IT field. I make a lot more cash on average & my job as software developer is one of the most highly sought after in the nation. Computers are becoming more and more prolific in everyday life so I maintain a solid job. But from what I've told you, it's pretty obvious that being in the IT field is what separated me and my wife. Looking back, I miss the times she brought me a beer as I was stacking sunders.
Sorry to make light of your situation, Frank, but honestly I think that a lot of IT people know how easy it is to find pr0n online. I've heard this is a growing concern. Honestly, the perks of an IT job would probably be desirable for the wife, I think it's just the fact that the person is more clued in to how to use computers for pleasure and addiction. IT filed offers more money and doesn't ravage your body (at least not like construction or farm work does). Whether it be Warcraft or pr0n, these addictions pay a toll on a happy marriage. If you find a correlation, it's probably in those topics, not just IT.
About the questions with kids, I don't have any but I would think that it would be very simple to get them involved with a computer project and spend plenty of weekend time with them. Then again, that's just what I would dream of happening
My work here is dung.
Like spoons made Rosie fat.
Are you seriously planning to use responses here as "data" for a graduate-level academic thesis?
Married? Kids? I'm still running girlfriend 5.0 since I'd heard the upgrades to wife 1.0 came with so many problems I'd stick with what already works for me. :-P
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
1) Ask /. is now officially worthless
2) Your thesis is horribly flawed
3) Your wife is leaving you because you whine too much
This
Surely you can't discount the fact that IT workers are drawn from a different portion of the population which makes it difficult if not impossible to prove that there is a causative factor?
It sounds like an interesting topic, but be careful with overstating the implications of your correlational results.
Getting your advice from slashdot.
His job smacked his wife around. Now seriously, who's gonna stay in a relationship like that? I mean come on...
His job was also very lazy, never did anything around the house. And it would never listen! If you're going to be in a relationship with a man, women, and a job, everyone needs respect each other and their personal space. But job just didn't know when to back off either... it would keep pressing and pressing... jesus, I'm in the bathroom. Just leave me alone!
Do you bring your work home with you? Is your hobby computers and does it take most up of your free time? Do you commute to work and end up getting home late every night? I work in an IT possition as well and though my marriage is a good one...I could probably play computer games less. Well, mainly one...World of Warcraft. I have taken it easy lately on it since I do have a 6 month old baby girl...but if computers have taken over your life, trust me...its not the IT Industry ruining your marriage...its you. People with the same fascination with cars or fishing or hunting. If those hobbies take over their lives, their personal life is affected. Doctors have the same problem. They work long hours and end up with bad personal lives.
Click Click Bloody Click PANCAKES!
... I just want you to know that I'm sorry that you and your family are in this situation. It's painful for everybody, and I feel for you.
For my graduate thesis I am writing a paper about Dads who work in the computer industry, divorce and custody. I think our industry causes a high rate of divorce but I need some help from the Slashdot community.
I realize this may come across as a cheap shot but...
If you're writing a graduate level paper, shouldn't you actually do some, you know, statistical analysis to support your core hypothesis rather than go with, "I have a feeling and asked some other nerds."?
You're far more likely to get results with, "Statistics show that while divorce is at n%, n+y% of male IT workers experience divorce. This thesis looks at prime causes for that y% and performs a statistical breakdown of their effects." than "I got divorced, I work in IT, it sucked. This paper's about how I'm pretty sure IT made it happen. I asked some other nerds what they think."
Not sure if any of the data you have here is going to be significant ... and since this _is_ slashdot, I doubt highly that you could use it as a reference on a graduate thesis. Personally, I've been married for 3 years and have a son, which I'm sure outcasts me in the group. But, I digress.
... far from it. Here are some traits I observed which one side, the other, or both had in those cases: personality conflicts, lack of communication skills, unwillingness to communicate, unwillingness to listen, self-absorption leading to the exclusion of the other, disjoint financial strategies, unfair domestic workload balance, ho-hum disregard for the children. I never saw a particular job or anything actually interfere.
I have a couple friends that have been divorced, though they are from different professions. In those cases, the job wasn't the crowning gem in the divorce itself
Where I'm at now in my mid-30s, most of the guys I work with are married and have been for quite some time. There are very few divorcees and the people I know are very loyal to their partners and their families. I'd have to say that here in IT, those of us who are married are a pretty fun, stable bunch.
I think you need to stop blaming your career for your divorce and do a little more soul searching.
// Agent Green (Ian / IU7 / KB1JQO)
// IEEE 802.3: All 10base Are Belong To Us
I work as an IT person (net admin, specifically) and I went through a divorce with 2 kids.
:)
I came out with a shared parenting plan and am considered the custodial or residential parent (the 2 kids live with me, and have structured times w/ their mother). My divorce, however, was not due directly to my workload. It was due to the fact that my ex is an alcoholic with violent tendencies... my long hours irritated her, sure - but that's about it.
Long hours suck the life out of everyone - but they are an unfortunate side-effect of what we have chosen to do for a living. This is beginning to change a bit, I've noticed - I can do my work from home when I need to be home with the kids due to a great implementation of citrix and vpns (not to toot my own horn), and my cell phone keeps me in constant contact when needed.
--endcycle--
You had a wife that reads /. and you let her get away? FOOL!
I keep telling myself I'm not the desperate type.
Marriage is hard. Its a lot of work. If you aren't willing to give up on your child, then why give up on your marriage? I wish people valued marriage half as much as they valued their relationship to their children.
I've seen divorcees willing to move to other states, pay lots of money, adjust their schedules, adjust their lifestyles... all just to be with their kids. Spouses should do the same thing. Its all a matter of priority. Marriage just doesn't mean as much anymore.
These days, people divorce because they argue too much. Or because "the spice" is gone. Or because they don't like arguing about money. Or because the in-laws hate each other. Or because wife gained some weight and doesn't look good enough anymore. Get over it. Man up and deal with it and treat the marriage with the importance it deserves.
I've been married for eight years now and I have a child. Some of that married time has been REALLY hard. But I treat my marriage like my child. It would take a LOT for me to give up on my child. Same for my marriage.
Its all about priorities.
I'm married with two happy children. I know several people who have gotten divorced and have shared custody of children. None are IT professionals.
The high instance of divorce in the US is much more related to materialism, disconnectedness (also called "independence") and ideas of "self", attitudes towards relationships and the myth of satisfaction than any scapegoat, popular (homosexuality) or unpopular (IT professionals).
I always tell my single friends that finding a spouse and marriage is more about being the right person than finding the right person.
Good luck on your thesis. I hope it's well researched and well received. Obviously there's more to it than you could put in an "Ask Slashdot."
I wonder if there may be a relation with Asperger's Syndrome. According to an article in Wired, Apserger's is disproportionally common among IT people.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
I've been in IT for some years now. I went through a divorce. Was my profession responsible, no. I have a wonderful son and share custody 50/50.
I worked at a startup for 1 year, during that year I rarely if ever saw my family. Did that job contribute to my divorce? No, because I decided to quit that job, and find another (That year surely didn't help my relationship, however it wasn't the catalyst to the failure of the marriage).
Divorce can be a horribly emotional experience, we often soul search to find out "what went wrong, what could've I done differently". Sometimes, you just got to sit back.. take a deep breath, and just realize it didn't work out. Regardless of whether she cheated, you cheated, you were away working all the time, she wasn't a good wife, and the myriad of other reasons, nothing can change the present situation... so...
Best advice, Keep your cool and move forward. If you feel the job's a problem start looking for a new one.
Awesome!
There is some truth to this. Nearly any coporate job demands long hours and tough working conditions, all so you can make a few extra bucks. Having both spouses working only exasperates the difficulties in spending time together. In a good relationship, both of you should naturally have a clear idea of what each other is up to. There's no need to give each other the first degree, or hang off each other. Just spending time together, talking a lot, and doing the things that couples do can go a long way toward saving the marriage. Unfortunately, this takes a LOT of effort, isn't very easy, and requires the commitment from both sides.
Having kids only puts more demands on your time. They need just as much of your time as your spouse does. That time, however, does NOT replace the alone time you need with your spouse! Just because you both spend time with your kid doesn't mean that you don't still need intimate time (physical, emotional, and otherwise) with each other. Just something to keep in mind.
BTW, check out my current sig for a geeky way to give your kids "daddy time".
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Anyone that works long hours is going to have a hard time maintaining their relationship. It really has nothing to do with the industry itself, but instead is a result of people neglecting their relationship to spend more time at work or on their computer. I've gone through that myself, with my wife and I going through a separation before I realized that I needed to spend more time with her and less time on the computer. Same goes for mechanics, engineers, managerial staff, etc. Leave your work at work and spend some time with your wife.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. --Winston Churchill
These are all issues you should have thought about before having unprotected sex. What will happen to your son if something tragic happens to his mom?
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
I was in a relationship for eight and half years with my ex. We'd bought a house together nine months earlier and I thought things were okay. Yes, I'd been working *a lot*, like nearly every weekend for the last three months. She'd got a promotion which took her out of town a few nights a week, I didn't mind, she'd been really supportive of my career in the early days and I figured it was me returning the favour.
I came home one Sunday evening and she announced she'd met someone else and she was leaving me. She'd known him for a month and was in love with him, she still loved me but she wasn't *in love* with me. WTF?! No it's not up for discussion, I'm moving out. So I got fifteen minutes notice that my relationship was over.
I knew that we'd been distant but I'd resolved that I was going to put the effort into our relationship as soon as this project was delivered.
Have you figured out the moral yet?
and in this order of importance:
the key is to manage your time - you can meet a deadline *and* keep your private life if you're organized and diligent.
When you recognize love in another and realize how precious it is, everything else seems so insignificant.
Why are you so concerned about your job? If you've put so much work into your job that you've neglected your family do you really think you should get full custody of the children?
I know it's difficult but think of yourself second to your kids. Your wife is not "the enemy" she is an ally you're struggling with at the moment. If you're working so hard you can't spend time with your kids don't have them for more than weekends you won't be working.
Some times it's hard to think when you have a knife in your heart, but it's these times you need to.
I like muppets.
In my experience, people in the IT industry have a lower incidence of divorce in general. It is more likely that divorce happens because you do not prioritise what's really important (work vs. relationship). Blaming it on your job is just silly.
No.
1. Hardest challenges: being a single father with an eighteen month old son, learning to actually be a parent, growing up, staying focused on the job because...TADA! divorce sucks...regardless of what profession you claim on your 1040.
2. Happy Kids? You don't have a teenager do you? Happy is a relative term. And, yes, my children are relatively happy.
I also must say I think your thesis premise sucks. But good luck anyway.
They tell the woman that they love 'em, and figure that the woman should understand that the value of love for that woman should be 'true' from now until they tell her that it is now 'false'.
Unfortunately, the woman needs to have the value of love set every time she boots in the morning, and occasionally during the day also.
Playing Call of Duty 8 hours a night for a month straight doesn't help either.
Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
Only on Slashdot will a comment as the parent gets modded +Informative...
This is my sig. There are thousands more, but this one is mine.
Seriously, if you've come to the point of getting a divorce, it's a problem with you and your spouse. Don't blame your job, your health, your astrological sign, or whatever. They might contribute to the problem, but the problem was there long before then. If, e.g., you work too much and don't spend quality time with your husband/wife/kids, that's a family problem. Either you or your spouse (probably both of you) need to recognize that everything starts with you.
:)
Damn, I'm starting to sound like Dr. Phil.
... IT does not "cause divorce."
Neither do trees. Or the weather. Or hockey.
What may cause divorce are your choices in how to deal with each of these things.
If you let technology, or the job, or your boss, take priority over your loved ones and family, that is your decision.
Sadly North American society places the almighty buck ahead of everything, and that translates to a belief that The Job is more important than any other thing in life.
There are people and places who have rejected these attitudes to varying degrees. In Europe, where work weeks are often quite less than the 40 hour minimum common here, and vacations begin at multiple weeks each year. In intentional communities, where a balance between work and life and family is central to the overall design of the environment. Or even with a small number of employers who have realized that happy and healthy employees lead to greater long term productivity and profits.
So don't place the blame on "IT", place it on yourself and take long hard look.
Three Squirrels
If your income is so important that you sacrifice your relationship, you don't deserve neither.
I work in IT, I have been doing it for 10 years now. TEN FUCKING YEARS.
Christ almighty I hope you're not a coder...
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
I grew up in a household that was abundant in two things; computers and marital tension. My father is an IT entrepreneur. My mother is a teacher. I have a feeling that my father was a lot cooler in college when they met. Of course, when the ex-hippie turned pseudo-philosopher graduates from college and runs into the brick wall of real life, certain decisions have to be made. He runs into computing in the late 70's and it's a match made in heaven, far stronger than anything my parents ever had. As the divorce was happening, I blamed it on tension created by certain members of the extended family, but I was 12 when they separated, so my analysis at the time holds no weight. In retrospect, almost 13 years later, I now see that the computer, or at least the number of hours logged in front of it had much more to do with it. Admittedly, the divorce messed me up for quite a while, as I think they mess up most children (especially at that age) but things are much better now than they were before. Both my parents remarried and are extremely successful now in both their careers and personal lives. My sister and I both lead productive, well-balanced lives and have great relationships with both sets of parents.
I'd venture a guess that you could make a correlation between ANY job that elicits long, dedicated hours and divorce. It's the way social evolution seems to work. Community -> Family -> Individual -> Online Groups -> Large Online Communities. That may be a little contrived, but hopefully you all get the point.
My wife and I are both in a position where we work long, hard hours. The thing is, we're both willing (and often do) drop whatever we're doing in an instant to help the other out--even if "help out" is nothing more than "just sit here with me for a while."
Marriage, done well, is hard work. Marriage, done well, is telling your wife to put her feet up and relax while you do the laundry or cook dinner--never mind that you're both exhausted from a long day's work and you'd really rather just play video games if you had the choice. Marriage, done well, is moving to a new city so that your spouse can pursue a promising new job. Marriage, done well, is near-constant attention, care, and dedication. That said, it's easily the most satisfying, fulfilling, entertaining and educational thing I've ever done, and I don't regret a second of it.
My grandfather-in-law had some sound advice on how to make a marriage work. He told me that marriage is a 90/10 proposition: each partner should expect to do 90% of the work themselves and only expect 10% from the other.
How much did you give your wife and family? How often did you ask your wife to wait until you were done doing whatever it was you were doing? How many times did you tell your wife not to bother cleaning the kitchen or bathroom and instead do it yourself? How many hours a day did you spend "free time" in front of the computer?
Do you genuinely believe that the fact that you write web pages played a significant role in the collapse of your own household?
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Oh Geez, you think IT is problem job? Try being a salesman on the road 50 weeks a year, or a field engineer rolling out a multi-year project in China, or even field technicians for Fortune 500's that do multi-year rollouts, construction (from engineers to dump truck drivers) the list is very long and IT is not even close to being the worst. Get over it, get your life in order, pick which is more important to you, your work or your kids.
I'm the son of a man who's worked IT/EE/DOD for pretty much his entire life. He divorced my mother when I was six months old, and obtained full custody.
I'll guarantee being in the profession had NOTHING to do with it. When I turned 18 I went thru every document concerning the divorce (and a few old cassette tapes with my mother's adoptive father telling my dad to ditch my mother and take me somewhere else,) and I can easily conclude it wasn't due to him being in the profession, it was a matter of morality and family economics (what should've gone to diapers, food, etc. to me instead went to my mother partying every night and getting FUBAR'd.)
Now I will say that *YES* it's possible that working in the IT field, which is very demanding (sometimes requiring 30-hour shifts, from what my father's told me from his days at Texas Instruments,) will strain or destroy your relationship, mainly because your job keeps you away from your wife, or the job puts so much stress on you, that while you wish you could vent it at the job, you end up relieving it in unconstructive ways at home.
But it's a little unfair to place the blame squarely upon your job. Tell me, what did you try to keep the relationship working? She should've known that you would have long hours. Somehow, knowing how many relationships I've been in for the past ten years, not all of it is squarely the fault of the job, or even your girl (well, minus my three lying and stealing ex-fiancees,) but usually upon you. There are always exceptions, but most filed cases I've seen are the woman leaving the man, for infidelity, spousal abuse, drug usage, conflicting interests, etc.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Not necessarily. At least in EU.
Lack of social skills in IT (and most heavily intellectual industries for that matter) is an American specific thing. That is not the case in the EU.
Based on personal observations from 2 years in a US Uni and 5 years in a EU Uni the stratification between sporty steroidheads and geeks is much more pronounced in the US. In EU sports are played for fun and there are quite a few sporty geeks or very geeky sportsmen. And quite a few womenisers and party animals (and vice versa) amidst them.
Till recently most EU companies did not consider it to be a "bad tone" for people to be rational and interested in the material side of the job (shares, salary, etc). That is not the case in the US which is much more like this. You are expected to be a sociopath, work long hours, be passionate about the job and sacrifice your family and kids in favour of it and if you do not fit this mould you do not get hired. While some EU companies have tried to adopt this model (I had that tried on me in an interview), it has not been particularly successfull (at least till recently). As a result in the US there is job based selection towards sociopathic intellectuals (this is not just IT, in fact biotech is much worse).
For example in the company where I work less then 5% are overweight, 90%+ play some form of sport, 95% are married and the divorce rate has been 0 per 100 employees (for 5 years span). That is way better than the national average for the UK and many times better than the US.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
If you're going to blame this on your career and you're asking slashdot. Why don't you lay out exactly why the relationship failed and then get her to post her side of it. It would be good input for your thesis. In the meantime, I'm going to make some popcorn.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
"True" love in high school. We were both going to do college and then have kids.
She took one semester- said "THIS SUCKS" and went to work full time.
When I was three years into college she decided, "We need kids now. You need to quit college and work two or three jobs like my brother-inlaw does for my sister." Then she unilaterally decided to have kid (Found that out years later in a tearful confession).
Was she a bad person- really probably no worse than average.
Were we both STUPID for getting married so young? YES.
College takes a LOT of work and is completely unforgiving. If you miss a test- that's it, change schools or just quit because otherwise that is going to be on your GPA 11 years later. If you truly understand that, you can see the conflict when you are studying and she throws a hissy fit because you are not paying attention to her. You get fired from a job- who cares, you can get another one. You fail a course- you are screwed. Maybe so badly that there is no point in getting the degree any more.
We finally broke up after 10 years together (8 married). She waited about 30 days into the separation period before she started cutting a path through our male friends (which pissed me off back then- but hell these days I figure why lose a good friend over a woman).
Now-- how about those "working 60 hours a week" guys?
Okay- 10% of them do get ahead. The rest get NADA, BUPKIS, ZERO.
It took me about 8 years longer, but I had 20 hours a week more life during those 8 years.
Having a wife tho? Under today's legal setup (welcome to divorce land- you are screwed guys- enjoy paying the mortgage for her and the new boyfriend who thinks it's okay to spank your kids) I personally won't be going that route. I have my own house, no debt, new car, nice clothes. I have several girlfriends (one for concerts, one for gaming, one for dancing, etc.). It works out great for me; they are happy (I'm open about being a bachelor up front which helps) and I don't have to turn the stereo down or clean house when I don't want to. Plus when I lose one or two (as happened in 2002) then I'm not devastated and I just load up a couple more. I personally do not think people were meant to stay together forever any more. I'm not sure people were meant to invest *EVERYTHING* into one single other person. You always have to give *something* up (this one goes to bed at 9pm- that one doesn't drink- this one doesn't like gaming- that one doesn't like going out dancing, etc.)
Plus- in my opinion, when you give so much incentive to women to divorce- they are a lot less likely to stay married until the kids are 18. Basically, if you have a good income and kids: they win, you lose. The courts even go so far as to make men pay for kids that do not exist for years and unless you have a super lawyer you get to see the kids six days a month and every other christmas.
---
Basic advice- if you want kids and to be married- at least wait until you are 25 to 27. And yea- don't work 60 hours a week. It's really stupid. Most women won't disconnect emotionally if you pay them any attention at all. Even 3-4 hours a week they can count on will fulfil their needs. But randomly coming home late, skipping important holidays, only touching or kissing them when you want sex, you are asking for the street.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Your wife is an asshole. That's the moral.
The way I look at it is this. Either you are flying signals ("I'm single! I'm looking! I'm available! Look at me!") or you are not. I'm going to bet that your wife was flying signals. If you look back at her behavior totally objectively, you'll probably see it. If you do, internalize this fact -- she was looking to get out.
The best advice I can offer you is from my own experience.
1) Don't hang around. She says she still loves you? Bullshit. She doesn't. She's not even THINKING about you. Move on.
2) Don't believe her if she comes back. She says she wants to try again? She says she wants to "Renew your vows" (that's a rich one)? Move on.
3) Don't let her set your agenda. Guilt trip about "staying with the kids while she goes away?" Sure, if you want to. If you don't, tell her to drop them off at your place, you'll deal with them.
And don't -- absolutely don't -- let yourself be angry, bitter, unhappy. This is not your fault. It's not about your job or how many hours you put in. It's not that you didn't "work hard enough" at the relationship. Baloney. I know plenty of people who have ridiculous schedules and see each other rarely, but they're doing just fine.
Remember: it's about her wanting to leave. It's not about you "failing" in some respect. Dry your eyes, forget your guilt, and find someone who wants to be with you. And if you notice her "flying signals," put her on the "temporary fling" list and start flying your own signals, fast.
Men can stay at home, and women can work. Is that generally the case? No... but thats not my fault. It's not my fault that, by nature, men have higher levels of testerone that, when taken artificially, is considered a performance enhancing drug. It's also not my fault that women are, by nature, the ones who give birth to children, and go through a week period every month in which they become emotionally instable due to an increase in estrogen. And queue the accusation of sexism. But guess what... I don't give a fuck. It is only natural that men and women fall into different roles in society. Does this mean that women can't break the mold, and say, become CEO of a big company like say.. Ebay? Oprah Winfrey, Martha Stewart... both self-made billionaires. So really... don't give me this shit about equality. There is inequality going both ways. That's nature. Deal with it.
Similes are like metaphors
I'm from the same situation (devorced parents).
Our young son is happiest whenever he sees mommy and daddy kissing or hugging. He usually wants to join in too. The rest of the time, you've got to ask really nice for a hug, especially if he's in the middle of driving his tractors or "reading". But when he sees us hugging, he can't drop whatever he was doing fast enough to join in.
I think it is important for children to know that they are loved, but it at least as important that they know that the people who love them love each other. It kind of ties their whole universe together. And parents are the two most important (and most visible) people to a child, so they really need to see a strong relationship there. Before they're too old they'll know that mommy and daddy are *supposed* to love each other, and have probably heard them say it to each other too. If they see that relationship breaking down and missing love (or like I was as a child, told that mommy and daddy don't love each other any more), they'll feel a lot less secure about the love they're supposed to get from each parent, or from anyone else for that matter.
Of course I don't think it is *easy* to do this. Marriage takes work like any relationship, like any job. And often, that work doesn't seem as fun or as rewarding as your professional work (I can speak for myself here). Still there can only be two people to blame when any relationship breaks up (and usually they both deserve blame too).
What's the thought here anyway?
Is IT really that much more demanding than other professions (doctor, lawyer, army personel, etc., etc.)?
Anyways, its not the job's fault, its the person who chose the job over his or her spouse's fault.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seus
I fall into the category - tech worker, dad, divorced. I don't have any kind of custody of my son, basically because my ex is from a rich family and I was dead broke at the time from paying her credit card bills. I do have standard visitation, though, and I'm always pushing for more.
Anyway, the point is, I don't think it's so much a question of the tech industry creating situations (lots of time in the office, high stress, bringing work home, etc etc) that lead it's people into divorce. I think, rather, that the tech industry is filled with people who lack the social skills required to make a marriage work.
First off, techies probably got into the field because they grew up spending more time with computers than humans because they were the geeky social outcasts. Second, because techies were likely geeky social outcasts, they probably glom'd onto the first person willing to marry them (but not necessarily the right person) because of a fear they would never find anyone else (low self-esteem is rampant in the geeky social outcast crowd). Third, not many geeky social outcasts with low self esteem are able to handle confrontation, which is inevitable even in a strong healthy marriage, so they probably avoided the problems (long hours at work) or behaved to aggressively in response (the ol' "yell louder to win" routine). Neither solves problems, both just make problems worse. Eventually, someone calls it quits. Either the techie grows a spine and realizes what a mess he or she is in and jumps ship, or the non-techie spouse gets fed up with the loser and leaves.
Raise your hand if this sounds familiar to you? It's basically the exact situation almost all of my divorced techie coworkers found themselves. It's pretty much where I found myself. At least I was fortunate to be the kind of techie who learned some self esteem and grew a backbone. While I may not have custody of my son due to my financial circumstances at the time, I do have a strong relationship with him, my experience has taught me invaluable lessons in how to make my second marriage a brilliant success, and . . . I guess i don't really have a third. But anyway.
To sum up, stop trying to blame someone else for what really is a failure between you and your spouse. The fault lies solely between the two of you and not with your employer. Grow a spine, learn some self esteem, and work harder at your marriage than at your job.
In my opinion, a boss saying "you're indespensible" or "there's a dealine friday" is just an ego-stroke, designed to keep you working unpaid overtime for the company. I should know, I've taken that bait more than once. No one is indespensible, and if the company were serious about the production schedule, they'd hire enough staff to come in on time. We're being played. Worse, we offer up our families on the alter to our egos. Grad school is a huge time commitment - having done it, I'm not sure it was worth the price.
Ultimately, companies rise and fall, whole fields of endeavor wax and wane, and the career that looks like gold today will likely be dross in time. Take time NOW for your wife, and kids if you have them. I know too many nerds that have a shelf filled with company awards, and go home to an empty house at night. No pretty little bauble on your brag-shelf will compensate for failure within the family. If your current job isn't family friendly, start printing resume's today.
I left a "big" job a few months ago. I kept it because after the dot-bomb I was afraid of being unemployed. They gradually demanded more and more of my time, and were fairly generous with the compensation. Eventually, I found myself arguing my wife of 20 years (a rare occurance), and it became apparent I didn't know the name of the school my daughters went to, or the names of their best friends. The next day, I talked with my boss, and when she wasn't receptive to my needs, started looking for new work. I am poorer financially, but FAR, FAR happier than I would have been had I stayed. I hope my wife will be at my side long after I've bid a final farewell to my career, it would be stupid to ruin something eternal for that which of little worth.
"You, by now definitely thinking that this is a macho post ... and im laying all the blame on women."
Why, yes I am. I can't believe a post saying, and I quote, "women are faulty" got an "insightful" score. Of course, I personally have witnessed plenty of male chauvinist attitudes on slashdot, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. But I'm still really damn offended.
Sure, women have a biological drive to find a secure, loving home to raise children. Even if we choose not to raise a family, we still are wired to be in and part of a loving, caring environment. It's not a fault, it's a virtue that ensures the future of the human race. There is a plethora of evidence that children raised without affection, attention, and love develop all sorts of horrible emotional problems. If everyone had your attitude, 21st century or no, we'd be a race of miserable, disfunctional people. Yes, there are plenty of ways to connect and interact with people through technology -- but that doesn't change thousands of years of evolutionary pressure to want to be with someone in a physical sense.
Besides, if you never "get out and do something", you'll quickly become obese, lethargic, and die of a heart attack at the age of 40. Who wants to be married to that?
Funny you should mention that when he's essentially soliciting anecdotal evidence in favor of his thesis by asking for people to tell their own stories.
He's not taking a representative sample group and testing whether or not his thesis is true but is instead trying to find data points that agree with his thesis and ignoring the context of how many others disagree with it. It's not exactly scientifically rigorous work so much as an attempt to find other people to reassure him that he's normal, and that's it's less his fault than if there was no correlation.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Don't blame the IT field for your divorce. Blame yourself (and your wife) for not ensuring that your ideas of marriage aligned before you got married.
It sounds like your idea of marriage was that you would prioritize your job over your wife under certain circumstances. It sounds like your wife's idea of marriage was that you would prioritize her over your job under those same circumstances. It doesn't mean you always deprioritized your wife or didn't care for her. It doesn't mean she was too demanding or needy. It doesn't mean that either one of you was "wrong" for expecting what you expected. It just means your expectations were fundamentally mismatched.
You need to find yourself a woman who has the same idea of marriage that you do. You both need to check continuously that you are on the same page as each other -- this is what those relationship advice articles mean when they are always talking about "communication". Find a woman who agrees with your expectations and tactics and who wants the same things out of marriage and life that you do. And the same advice would help your ex-wife: she needs to find herself a husband whose idea of marriage aligns with her own.
As for the kid caught in the middle of this divorce, be honest with yourself: who is going to give that kid more time and attention and proper parenting? If it's not you, then do the kid a favor and let your ex play that role. Don't use the poor kid as a tool of vengeance (by fighting for custody just to deny your ex something she wants). Be the better human being and do the best thing for the kid instead of being immature and selfish.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
You are simply damned if you do and damned if you don't when it comes to being a husband these days. With most women, you just simply can't win anymore.
Either you put 110% into your career and as a consequence of your long working hours you neglect the inflated emotional needs of your wife, or else you work a regular 9-5 job where you can make enough money to support yourself, but certainly not enough to support a family with a middle class lifestyle.
Most women don't consider men who don't make well beyond the national income average (around 40K a year) as marriage material, especially if they don't already own property. Try buying a home on 40K a year in a state like California. Good Luck!
Plus most women these days come into a marriage with massive debt in the form of student loans and other expenses they racked up in their early 20's, so they NEED a guy who makes a lot of money just to rescue them from their financial nightmare which usually is the direct result of student loans for a degree in liberal arts or some other area of study which won't get you the kind of job you need to pay off massive student loans.
Now, to make the kind of income you need just to be considered "Marriage Material", in America you usually need to work your butt off unless of course you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth (which is a very small minority of men out there). Of course, if you work your butt off then you are probably not going to be coming home at 6:00 PM for dinner every night because your job/career demands that you get the job done because the reality is that if you don't get the job done, then you are going to have to find a job that does not pay enough to be considered "Marriage Material" by most women.
There was once a time in America's history when it was socially acceptable for men to work their butt off all day long and women would not complain, so long as their man brought home the bacon and he was not off spending his limited free time and resources on hookers or some subordinate such as a secretary. But now, men are expected to make enough money to support a middle-class lifestyle, while at the same time be home at a predictable time as if that is how the professional world (and especially the IT world) actually works. If a man doesn't seem to be earning enough money, or else he is working too much, then those are immediate grounds for divorce. In fact, in any state with no-fault divorce, a woman can divorce you at a whim, take most of the marital assets and then have you paying child support out the wazoo for kids you will be lucky to see for even more than a few times a month. And yes many women work these days , but shortly after they get married and pop out a few kids, few wives want to ever return to work full-time again and the statistics bear that out.
Hey, but look on the bright side, at least your are not in the military. Divorce among military families since the Afghanistan and Iraq war has been spiraling out of control as brave men and fathers are routinely rewarded for their hard service with Dear John letters from their soon to be ex-wives because they have been "neglecting their family". Even worse than that, their wives get uncontested permanent full custody of the children as well so when a father returns from his tour of duty, he finds he no longer can live in his own home, and that everything he truly fought for, deserted him while he was away defending the country.
Whatever you do, don't blame yourself and your own hard work for your wife leaving you. There may be other mitigating circumstances in why she filed for divorce, but if your only crime is working hard to support your family, well then she is the one with the problem and not you.
Well, this topic is about to fall off the Slashdot homepage, so I guess my comment is destined to languish in obscurity. However, let's do this for posterity.
There are many posts here making the point that it's ridiculous to blame your job for your divorce. They make the distinction that human beings make these choices, and the blame should fall there. It's a good point, although maybe some could have said it more kindly. But it doesn't change the fact that some work environments are extremely hostile to marriages.
I worked at software reporting tools company for a couple of years. At one point, there was a Web site redesign scheduled. As the sole Web person at the time, I worked 2 90+ hour weeks back to back. It was something like 16 days on, each day up at dawn, home at nearly midnight. I was a (relatively) new father. I didn't once speak to my daughter during that time -- I only saw her sleeping at night. I was OK with this because it was a very short-term crunch. But I was a little sad. I launched the redesign Sunday night, got a few hours of sleep, and arrived at work Monday morning at 7:30 AM. I wasn't expecting much, but some acknowledgement of my hard work would have been nice. My boss was there, livid. I don't even recall what the problem was, but it was minor. She ripped into me. I defended myself with the truth -- "I've worked 16 days in a row, I haven't seen my family, there aren't any more hours in the day!"
Her response? "You'll just have to find a way to do more!"
You can say that the people in the marriage are always the problem. You can say that it's a cop-out to blame external pressures. And I agree to a certain point. I was at a crossroads, and I could have chosen my job over my family at that moment. It would have been my choice, my consequences. But I also know that certain types of people can and will take advantage. Certain people do NOT care about anything other than their own goals, and if they can manipulate a young, inexperienced worker bee into slaving away, so be it. If the worker bee crashes & burns, "maybe that worker bee wasn't cut out for the job." It is a fairly heartless way to interact with people, and to some degree, I think such people are not blameless for the pain that follows.
Oh, and I'm still married. I work freelance, my own schedule. We have income that is nowhere near what I used to make, but I'm way the hell happier.
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
The time that elapses between steps 2 and 3 is variable. Late-term abortions are generally held to be dangerous, not to mention the moral quandries associated with them. Sometimes the father is a dead-beat who doesn't leave (or leaves after the child is born), but provides no financial support, or worse, spends money.
Personally, being pro-choice, I support a woman's right to choose. Were I woman, and were I in a similar situation, I might choose to have an abortion. But I think it's important to recognize the psychological strife that comes with ending the life growing inside of you. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that it's not an agonizing decision for most women, even those that are pro-choice. For me, respecting a woman's right to choose means also respecting her choice to keep the child. If she can't pay for it herself, I don't think giving her a measily 7000 dollars a year is too much of a burden on the American taxpayer, given the other things we pay for (like billion dollar stealth bombers the military doesn't even want.) But I'm making a value judgement there, based on my own politics. You might disagree, which is your perogative.
Everything else aside though, the "just have an abortion" response is pretty callous, and if you think about it, it's easy for you to say because, and this is important, you will never have to decide whether or not having an abortion is the right decision or the wrong one. It's like non-smokers who tell a lifelong addict to "just quit smoking." It might be the right response, but it's much easier said than done. A person who has successfully quit smoking generally has a great deal more empathy for people who have trouble kicking the habit than people who have no frame of reference. I hate to sound sexist, but as men, we are biologically incapable of having a frame of reference when it comes to abortion.
We will never have more than anecdotal evidence to bring to bear when it comes to subjects like pregnancy, period cramps, and abortion. A little bit of humility goes a long way here.
I see this happen to often the job is wrong. Engineers doing a job work to much hours a week. And spend to less attentions to their family life. Not because they dont want but often they cannt because of how much they work A lot of them are burned out early also it's much the same You wouldnt have that if you would have been a painter for example. A painter would say it's 17:30 i'm going home i'll be back the next day. While your boss tells you custommer xx database is down help, and he will keep telling you that because after customer X we got Y and then Z, and then we start all overagain with A, B... (it never ends) As people in IT are to afraid to loose their job they do just to much. This is not in balance with their sallery. Not only that it's not in balance with a promice of mariage to be there when your girl needs you, and thats so wrong, so damn wrong!! so it this must be told for once
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
we have 9 people in our IT unit and only one divorce (and I think it was HER career that caused the problem there, not his)
Never marry a stripper.
Sometimes my arms bend back.
I agree that if your family is or wants to be supportive, they don't usually require a lot of time each day. What my wife and kids DO require is some amount of time, however limited, that is theirs and theirs alone (nearly) every day. Also, they need to know that whatever else is taking my time is in pursuit of some concrete, beneficial goal.
I have bedtime traditions with my kids. Not the same one every night, but a handful we can use on different nights depending on everyone's energy level. Sometimes I wrestle with them before bedtime. Sometimes I read to them out of a slim blue volume of Robert Louis Stevenson's poems for children. With my daughter I'm teaching her a song in French; sometimes we dance around the livingroom and sing together. With my oldest son I'm now listening to him learn to read before bedtime.
None of those take more than fifteen minutes each, but they happen (nearly) EVERY night, at or about the same time, and my children and I have come to count on them.
With my wife it's similar. Some nights we're lucky, and all three kids are asleep early enough that we can talk (and do other things) for some time. Other nights we're really tired but we make time to exchange a simple kiss or two when passing in the hallway, or to rub each others' shoulders, or something.
I guess if I have anything to add to the parent post it's that you need to sell your family on the benefits of whatever else is consuming your time. If your family truly believes that what you're doing is in pursuit of some shared goal, there's less resentment at your being busy. Couple that with consistent time together, even if it's short, and it sends the message "I value you" rather than "I don't have time for you." I myself am very task-focused and tend to deal brusquely with interruptions when I'm focused on something, so when I'm with my family I try to be WITH them, and I apologize when I'm too harsh.
I'm rambling a bit, and I'm deeply sorry if this post is hard to read for the original poster since he's past the stage where these ideas have any value for his current situation. But I wanted to chime in with my two cents in support of the immediate parent post to this one, which contains a lot of useful wisdom.
If we find the toilet seat down, we put it up and do our thing. We dont yell or bitch about it being up or down.
WHY dont women do the same ?
Read radical news here
Dominance, hah! Today I showed my dominance clearly, I said to her:"Now you sit down and listen! I'm the man in my house! If I want to do my dishes in my own house I'm going to do them and I'm going to do them right now! And you're not going to stop me! Heck, perhaps I'll clean the windows too!" Now that showed her! The only thing she could do is put on her lovely smile and said: "Yes dear". It clearly felt as a victory, although somehow I mistrusted her willingness to comply on my demands...
Think about wanting to be a manager with that in mind.
--Chag
Some people fail at 2, 3, or more marriages. They drive up the numbers.
The chance of any 1 person being divorce-free is much better than 50%.
Tip: divorce runs in families. Be wary of this when you choose.
Been in IT for 15 years and travel globally for my company. Three kids and twelve happy years of marriage later (to the same woman) the key for us was my finding balance between work and life. I know a lot of IT guys who can't put their computers down "computersexuals" as that is their only life. When 5:00 PM hits, I step out of my desk and into the Dad / Husband role. From 8:00 PM to 9:00 PM I work a little more once the kids are asleep (while my wife does her thing) and then we do our thing. It's all about balance.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
I'm an avid Slashdot reader but have never been incited to post until now.
My story is the complete reverse of what is being solicited.
I was a 'stay-at-home' mom of a 2-year-old and a -3-month-year-old (6 months pregnant) when my husband developed a severe mental illness. My divorce was sudden and my prospects were bleak since I had a master's degree in a field that was non-lucrative, I had no prospects for child support (my ex was rendered unemployable) and little or no social security since he had been a freelancer.
I moved my small family to CA just after the peak of the dot-com boom to be near extended relatives, too a good, hard, look at the world to see what industry would pay enough to support a family on a single income, would have the flexibility to allow for working at home or if extra hours are needed could be done in the evening while children slept, and which would reward self-starters rather than (or along with) those with formal degrees.
IT was the answer. Specifically programmming.
I found an employer who would hire a determined, untrained woman (job interview question: 'Can you write an ASP site', answer: 'Never heard of it, but give me a month and I'll have one written'.
And that started my career as a working mom. I am now an R&D programmer - I would call myself an architect-in-training - for a good sized program. I train and review code written by others but always seem to find something new to explore that would benefit the company I work for. My employers understand that I require a flexible schedule but they apparently seem to find that this relationship is worthwhile for them.
I entered the field for Machiavelian reasons. What I didn't expect was how much I would enjoy this career path - how much quality-of-life I would have when each day I wake up to learn something new or have the opportunity to teach someone else how to use what I've learned, all to benefit other people - users of our software, the company, our customers.
My family is growing well. My at-the-time not-born-yet daughter is now 7 years old. I have remarried to someone in the industry - a CTO with a background in network administration.
The IT lifestyle give me the flexibility to be a mom and help support my family. While this is not a 'magical' quality of the IT industry, intrinsic to it in some mysterious way and no other industry, it is the reason why I chose this career path and it worked out for me (with up-front negotiation with my employers) extremely well.