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Sony Defends Rumble Loss
Eurogamer reports on comments from Sony defending the loss of rumble in the SIXAXIS controller. "'I think the caveat to that statement always has to be based on the fact that when we make a pad, we're making maybe 150, 200 million of them,' Harrison explains. 'So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements. I think the decision that we've made to build in the SIXAXIS functionality, and Bluetooth wireless, and great battery life, and all the other functionality that comes with it, far outweighs the chatter that we're getting on vibration. And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"
I think that sony really made a poor tradeoff with losing rumble and adding the sixaxis thing (though it's actually only THREE axises (axies?) being that +/-X is one axis, +/-Y is an axis, and +/-Z is an axis, but anyway...). The thing about rumble support is that game pads have had it for so long now that (for me anyway) I don't notice when it's there, but I certainly notice when it's missing.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
Since when is "light" a selling point for controllers? Most sites that have hands-on experience with the PS3 mark that one in the negative column.
Talk about desparate...
nothing to see here, move along.
Same reasons stated every time some one brings up why thy didn't include both "well, uhh, we can't! umm, money, and weight, umm, yah"
I still like the 150-200 MILLION units being made. because each PS3 realy needs 150-200 controllers.
Do Or Do Not, There Is No Spoon, There Is Only Zuul. Everything in the above post is probably opinion.
When widespread customer outcry is "chatter," you're losing sight of what your role is as a company. Has anyone reminded Sony that the source of this "chatter" is also where they get their income?
What he did was common amongst magicians, which is to divert your attention away from the real trick, which was 'we cant get this motion sensing to work with the rumble feature'.
Its kind of like buying a new fancy lexus with all the bells and whistles and that they took out power stearing. Has all the other fancy things to show off to your friend, but just not power stearing.
Oh, and Microsoft and Nintendo have rumble and great battery life. I'm not worried. What I might be compelled to worry about is randomly exploding controllers, but maybe that's why they expect everyone to have so many spares. Does make multiplayer seem a lot more interesting, though.
This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
I've never really found the rumble feature to be that important. My Wavebird controller for the Gamecube doesn't have rumble and I've found it to be much more fun to use than the standard wired controllers.
What will happen to the Rumble Roses? Will their scantily clad wrasslin' continue? Will their rumbling be lost along with the controller's rumbling? The people need to know!
Since their batteries are non-replaceable my guess is with rumble, you piss through batteries a lot more, need to recharge more, your joystick becomes paperweight a lot sooner and Sony has to replace it with a brand new battery/joystick a lot quicker = they loose a lot more money.
:)
Your general consumers will probably feel something missing and be a little upset, I also agree though, giving me poor motion control over rumble = a bad move. Personally I can't stand people who turn the joystick all over the place when playing games
I can't stand light controllers. I don't like anything that doesn't have some weight to it; makes it feel cheap and not really there. I want something that will hold my hands down so when I use it, I don't feel like I am just pushing air.
-SaNo
The rumble feature in game controllers is a gimmick and always has been a gimmick. It is useless and a waste of battery life. Thank goodness it's being tossed out of most next-gen controller designs.
Given how expensive the PS3 is, it seems unusual to cite cost cutting for the controller. Especially since this could have a big influence on backward compatibility. Games like Breath of Fire 4 and Dark Cloud both use vibration as a critical element for a fishing side game. Without it, these games would lose a lot.
Come on. What does it really add? A slight buzzing in your hands when an explosion takes place that blows you away through the 7.1 sound system and the superb graphics through a 60" DLP 1080p screen isn't all that important. In the grand scheme of things it takes away from the rest of the modern experience with it's toy like effect. It's such a minor issue.
This is exactly what I'm concerned about, there is such a thing as having a controller that's "too light". After a point, it just feels flimsy and cheap, and becomes a constant reminder that it's a toy. The Dualshock controllers were quite good, just the right amount of weight, any lighter, and it begin to feel cheap. I do use Wavebird GCN controllers, but those are a little larger, giving them a bit more weight than the SIXAXIS will probably have, and I still wish (for all their greatness) they had a little more heft to them.
The PS3 is a $600 console, it's being marketted as a media entertainment center, and as something slightly more sophisticated than JUST a game console (supposedly), having a really light-weight controller is sort of going against their overarching image.
Which brings me to another point. What is Sony's overarching philosophy for this console? They don't seem to have a very unified idea in mind: art-deco looking console, utilitarian interface, lightweight controllers with motion sensors, with an Xtreme Gen Y sounding name... all these things really don't fit together to create a unified whole. If it has no unique feel in mind, then why should I buy it over the other guys' consoles? Nintendo spent YEARS developing a finely crafted gestalt that followed their unique philosophy on gaming, so much that the Wii almost has a living, breathing, personality. Microsoft a bit less so, but they've at least met the status quo in terms of having a unified feel (it's just not that original). But the PS3 just seems schizophrenic, it has no gestalit. It's as if each piece was designed completely independantly and the thing was just thrown together. Seriously, why should I get excited about something that was built with such an unprofessional looking attitude in design philosophy? While Joe Public may not be analyzing it like this, it comes across, subliminaly, as being unsure of itself and unable to deliver a really solid feel that will win people over.
Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
Is there seriously anyone out there that's going to miss the rumble pack?
I mean really?
Like
Whatever.
Not that I'm buying the maddenstation 3 anyways.
Sony's marketing strategy for the PS3 is like a man trying to throw a frisbee upside down.
They keep trying and trying, adding more and more 'spin' to it each time, but they still can't figure out why it won't fly.
-dotHectate
(forgot password, not at home, oh well)
Hmm, Companies when they are doing well usually are the object of praise by the media, customers, etc... Seems Sony is doing a lot of defending these days.
One Token Ring to Rule them All, One Search Engine to Find Them, One WAN to bring them in, and TCP/IP Bind them...
Translation: "We were just going to give you the same old Dual Shock 2, but we have to copy Nintendo! However, we couldn't find a way to add tilt sensors to the Dual Shock 2 without removing the rumble." The controller is still very similar to the controller that shipped with the original Playstation when it first launched almost 12 years ago. They probably 1) couldn't find a way to stuff both of them into the same old controller case, or 2) it would've cost too much to do so, and they're already losing money on the system as it is.
There is no valid excuse for not including rumble.
Motion sensor and rumble don't have to be used at the same time (assuming that'd be an issue)...
When correctly used, rumble adds a ton of immersion.
It adds tactile feedback to the gaming experience, complementing audio and video.
I just can't imagine a game like PGR3 without rumble - you literally "feel" it when the car is losing grip. And in cockpit mode, you "feel" when the tires are hitting the curb (and you know you're achieving the best line).
In FPS is gives a very natural way to give instant damage feedback without having to clutter the screen with color markers, etc (like in FarCry).
It's also very immersive to be able to feel the vibration of the weapon as you shoot - the rumble associated with a heavy machine gun is just awesome (like in GRAW).
In Halo, once you charged up the plasma pistol, you could feel its power waiting to be released.
Splinter Cell has those fun lock picking minigames, all based on rumble.
In HalfLife2, the game took me by surprise when I felt the subtle vibrations of an incoming train, even before I could hear it.
Sure you can make games without all this. You could also forget go back to stereo instead of DB5.1 or go back to 256 color palettes.
Anyone else notice Sony's little joke there? The SIXAXIS? Palindrome much?
If ignorant of the almighty
Sixaxis Creation Power,
then you are android dumb,
educated singularity stupid
and unworthy of existence -
with your death as positive.
Killing you is not immoral -
only unlawful by WiiMen.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Females in particular ;)
Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
This is backwards justification on techinical terms for a decision that was made because of the IP dispute between Sony and Immersion. I say dispute, but really Sony's getting their ass handed to them in the courts by Immersion. Immersion has already won a ~80M dollar decision based upon IP of the vibration feedback and an injunction against the infringing controllers, but Sony has since gone to the scorched earth strategy in endless appeals.
fwiw, Microsoft also infringed in the XBox controller, but chose to settle early.
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -- Carl Sagan
[quote]"'I think the caveat to that statement always has to be based on the fact that when we make a pad, we're making maybe 150, 200 million of them,' Harrison explains. 'So it has to be done at a price, and it has to be done at a volume that fits our production requirements. I think the decision that we've made to build in the SIXAXIS functionality, and Bluetooth wireless, and great battery life, and all the other functionality that comes with it, far outweighs the chatter that we're getting on vibration. And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up!'"[/quote]
When Sony was first asked why rumble was missing, they told us it was technically impossible/too difficult to do with the new tilt sensing. That wasn't infeasible, but highly disappointing. Then the lid was blown off of that.
Now Sony has changed their tune. It's a matter of price. The cost of $.01 over 150 million controllers is non-trivial. That seems feasible, why didn't you say that in the first place? Why does your controller cost $50 when you're saving us money? How is it that Nintendo's more advanced controller that features rumble, motion sensing, and even a speaker is $10 less than your controller until you start buy an addon which also features motion sensing? (Microsoft, you've got some explaining to do too)
The waffling about this doesn't alleviate the suspicion that Sony remove the rumble because of the lawsuit against them. We're not convinced you're trying to save us money when you're charging $500 to $600 for your system, in excess of $60 for games, and $50 for controllers. The original suspicion, that you're too arrogant and sour to suck it up and pay someone else for their proprietary technology, sadly fits the facts far better than anything you've told us yet. Given that the settlement for the lawsuit was around $100 million for years worth of controllers and games it doesn't strike me that the cost of working with Immersion is really so terrible a thing.
This isn't a defense, it's an excuse. I've never gotten the impression from any Sony representative that they are actually sad to see rumble go. The words of Sony aren't the sad, but necessary statements that game and hardware designers make as reality defeats cool concepts and ideas. They are distractions and red herrings from a ugliness Sony had hoped we wouldn't see.
Honesty will get you a lot farther than lies "chatter"ing through your teeth.
Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
Blue tooth? Sixaxis? Battery life? all buzzwords (well the last is good but everyone now has great battery life). The only reason they added Sixaxis is because of the lack of rumble. Blue tooth isn't needed or isn't crucial because the 360 has great connection system. Battery life is good but if you have a rechargable who really cares if you get 3 days or 6 days? Just replug it in at the end of the sessions.
Sony is trying to hype again. They claim they didn't take down Lik-sang, now they are trying to tell us their bastardized controller is better? Really they are giving us a 360 version of the Wii controller, No one asked for it, and no one really needs it but they'll create a need and then fill it.
Reading early reports on their controller I must admit I feel sorry for them, they were so far ahead last generation and I feel no need to even get a PS3 this generation.
with enough customer grumbling, sony will eventually get rumbling.
(wow that was horrible :-P)
I like a rumble gamepad. I think it enhances the game. I generally play computer games but recently spent some time playing Halo 2 on Xbox. I really noticed the rumble effect enhanced the game play. For instance when there is a large explosion on the ship, you feel it through the controller.
I was using a controller with a clear case and could see that the rumble feature is a small motor with a off centre weight on the end of the shaft, very simple, very cheap and likely easy on batteries.
The statement from Sony sounds very defensive. As in they know it sucks ass that rumble is not included.
People complain about the loss of rumble but I've always seen it as a gimmick that was only effectively pulled off in a few games. The rest of it was just a toy not necessarily to the actually game or, even more importantly, the game mechanics. How do I know this? Because most games on the PC never bothered with it.
Take a look at gaming on the PC side and it is devoid of rumble and trust me when I say Logitech and Microsoft would like nothing better than to sell you something that "rumbles" especially a gamer thinks they need but it never took off. I don't think World of Warcraft needs rumble and if CounterStrike players don't notice it and The Sims can't use it effectively, just how "important" is rumble? These are some of the most played, highest selling games in the history of gaming running rings around some of the best console titles and yet none of them are eager to have rumble. I guess the PC side of gaming has been missing out on...something.
So what are these games that really need rumble? The only reason to keep rumble in would have been "it is cheap". With Immersion, there is really no surprise it is gone.
To expand on the previous response to the parent, If you rotate a ball it won't change it's X,Y, or Z position- but that is clearly motion that you could track. Thus, roll, pitch and yaw are independant of X,Y, and Z movement.
I work with machines doing 4 axis movement. You can't do everything with only 3 (though with 5 you can fake the 6th).
You are reading a copy of my copyrighted post.
Once again, we have someone who doesn't like feature X and is glad that it's not in system Y, making it seem like its a "good thing" that the company decided to do it that way.
That's a load of BS.
Reading through the comments, it's obvious that there are many people that like it, and many people that don't. And you know what? They all know how to turn it off in the settings. Simple enough.
Now you can argue that it should be off by default, but most folks LIKE the feature. So the majority overrule your personal preference. It would be nice to have a personal setting that you could make on the console that remembers to turn off rumble across all games though. But to say that not having the option is a "good thing"? That's just stupid.
-- jchenx
Read up more on the Lik Sang situation. Sony may have been bastards with the lawsuits but it's pretty obvious that Lik Sang either already had problems and are using this as an excuse to close shop or they're doing this so they can reappear under a new name a few months later and evade the law.
Oh, and publishing confidential information? I don't care how wronged they feel, they just killed any consumer sympathy I could have felt for them with that one.
horz vs. yaw = turn right vs. strafe right. There is linear travel and there is rotation and they are different ways of manipulating an object in three dimensions. Time, a debateable fourth dimension has one way linear travel but no rotation.
We are all just people.
It's pretty obvious that he was referring to the entire PS3 run. I know it's popular to hate Sony (heck, I do!) but making their comments seem stupid when yours really are the ones that are doesn't help your cause much.
I just wasted your mod points! HA!
On a PC, you really don't see the major benefit of rumble feedback. On a console, rumble feedback seems rather trivial at times too, however rumble feedback used properly in a single-player game can really add to the effect. Sadly, few games use it terribly well. The key, however, is in multi-player games, and ones that don't utilize split-screen even more-so. Rumble feedback is the ONLY feedback a console can give that is specific to ONE player in an offline multi-player environment.
You forget that the new controller is meant to be used for motion control, which means holding it in the air - anything held for very long at all is going to feel very heavy after a while, which is I think a large reason for reducing the weight (I still think the lawsuit was the primary reason to rid themselves of Rumble).
After all, if Sony wanted weight they could just add weights to the controller really cheaply. They kept it light for a reason and I think a good one.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Come on, if they weren't using Bluetooth they'd be using some other form of wireless. Wireless is a good thing for controllers, just ask anyone with a 360... as long as it maintains a good battery life (which Bluetooth was designed for) then why not use that instead of something else? Especially when you get the benefit of being able to use bluetooth keyboard and mice with the PS3 (which it does support out of the box).
As for Sixaxis - you are an idiot if you think that brings nothing to the table as far as gaming goes. Just ask Nintendo! Who cares if they copied it, I as a GAMER really like this idea for a control option and wish everyone would adopt it. With two of the major consoles this generation supporting this control scheme the 360 is going to be hurting a bit later from the choice to leave it out.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm split on Rumble, I really liked it in some games but overall I feel that a new control scheme is more important than a subtle feedback mechanism that can partially be replaced with auditory cues.
In fact I wonder why no-one is criticizing Microsoft to be the only major console maker to leave out motion tracking technology of any sort. I think they may have to add it later, after the benefits become apparent through a number of Wii and PS3 games. Game makers even in the first generation are coming up with cool uses for motion control and over time we should see some really neat control enhancements from it.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I forgot to mention in my last post that "Six Axis" is actually a well-accepted term for motion controllers with these same six degrees of freedom as the Sony controller - were you complaining back when the introduced the SpaceOrb or rallying now against the current Logitech 3-D controllers?
Another term is 6DOF (degrees of freedom) which is a bit more descriptive.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Sixaxis != Wii's motion detection. Six axis is an attempt to bring it however it was put into the system late because they had to do something to replace Rumble. Not because it is better then rumble.
Yes wireless is important but Blue tooth again isn't something you need to trade for rumble. 360 has wireless AND rumble. Wii has wireless, motion detection and rumble. See where this is going? Sony is missing a valuable piece. It might not be important but acting like it's a good thing they skipped rumble and ignoring the fact that they were infringing on a copyright isn't smart, it's silly.
Don't believe sony's hype, if they wanted they could do rumble, sixaxis, bluetooth, battery life, and probably thrown in some other random technology and made it work easily. But according to them they had to get rid of rumble to make the other three available? Baloney.
Sony is currently scared shitless because people arn't killing each other to get their PS3, this is their big push to sell what they don't have, to make people go "I really need a PS3" the problem is people arn't acting like that because unlike with the ps2, we have 360s available, we have a completely new system for games on the other side, and the Sony brass has been acting so insane people arn't listening. And yet there's still very few exclusive games for it, and most of them arn't impressing people.
The Nintendo wirelesss controller (Wavebird) had no rumble in it to conserve on battery power. I play exclusively with the Wavebird when given the choice betweeen wireless or rumble.
I think people will get used to it.
Of course Sixaxis is different than the Wii controller in terms of what exactly it can sense. The WIi controller will probably be somewhat more refined in exactly what it can determine with external sensors.
However that does not invalidate the kinds of things that developers are doing today with the PS3 controller. From more natural flight control in games like Lair or Warhawks, to body checking in hockey games there are some cool control enhancements going in that I, as a gamer, am looking forward to. Because I like these ideas does not mean I don't also love the motion control ideas in the new Mario, it just means it will be different - but different is good, and different is new in both cases.
I simply do not see how one can be excited for motion control ideas in the Wii and not in the PS3, even if there are differences in what motion can be detected.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The PS3 version allows... Uhh... Oh wait, they haven't really said what it allows. So we have a standard controller that can tell when you move or tilt it. Hmm... Boxing? Nope. Golf? Nope. Football? Nope. Swords, guns, weapons? Nope.
Yes to all of the above. Just not in the same way the Wi is doing things. For one thing it can tell how hard or long you are moving or tilting.
Golf? Part of the skill is to rotate the controller smoothly through the swing.
Football? Jog the controller to break a tackle, or make a receiver jump for a ball.
Swords? Rotation again for swings.
It's not really the same as the Wii in the sense you can't tell exactly where it is in 3D space in the same way you can with the Wii controller. But raw detection of motion and degree of motion is still quite useful, as long as you figure out good ways to often synchronize the resting point of the controller.
There are many other control semantics you can incorperate in games even based on relative instead of absolute motion tracking. Pointing at the screen like a gun will probably not be one of them, but even that you could do if you think it through - again you need to find the starting point of the controller and measure motion from there.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Also, I am not preferring the PS3 or the Wii controller since that determination would be on a per-game basis for myself. I am simply excited that so many people are thinking about motion detection and what can be done with it in games. PS3 developers and Wii developers WILL get ideas from each other about new control schemes and that is great for owners of both platforms!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley