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Possible Serious Security Flaw In ATMs

sfjoe writes "According to a story at MSNBC.com, researchers at Algorithmic Research (ARX) have shown it may be possible for 'someone with access to the ATM network to attack the special computers that transmit bank account numbers and PIN codes, called hardware security modules'. Using these methods, an attacker could trick the security modules into exposing a PIN. It has long been considered impossible to access PINs as they are traveling through the ATM network without the encryption key used by the card-issuing bank. If PINs can be compromised, the almost 8 billion transactions per year they handle may be in danger. Not to mention all the transaction at retail stores."

167 comments

  1. Poink-Poink-Poink-Poink by Stanistani · · Score: 4, Funny

    *Looks left and right*

    Stop reading my tones!

    1. Re:Poink-Poink-Poink-Poink by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      You know, I don't fully understand the attack.
      If this is like a windows exploit then we're all in for it.
      If on the other hand it's like a linux issue: If you're local, have this obscure package installed, stand on your head and swallow a glass of water you can become root, then I'm not nearly as worried. Still needs to be fixed, but much less worried.
      -nB

      --
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    2. Re:Poink-Poink-Poink-Poink by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The thing is, anyone can purchase & setup an ATM.

      There's almost no State/Federal regulation (that I'm aware of).

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    3. Re:Poink-Poink-Poink-Poink by statusbar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And that is why organized crime has their own ATM division:

      http://www.beyondrobson.com/tech/2006/10/avoid_ban k_fraud_i_didnt/

      Therefore, not only is the ATM network insecure, it always has been for other reasons.

      --jeffk++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
  2. The reality of this is... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Getting a bigger mattress to store my cash in.

    1. Re:The reality of this is... by mordors9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know I am probably the exception amongst most of you. We don't have an ATM card, we go down to the corner bank to get money out the old fashioned way. Everyone at the branch knows the wife and I and no one else could get money out without generating a lot of questions. There's a lot to be said for the good old days.

    2. Re:The reality of this is... by Chosen+Reject · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I used to be a teller in a bank a few years ago. It is a very transitory position. I was there for nearly two years and there were few who had been there longer than I and many who had come and gone. Give it some time and people at the bank won't know who you are.

      Having said that, I hope that even if they do know who you are, that they ask to see ID every time, like my teller colleagues and I did. A lot of people have this silly notion that the only time we ask for ID is if the person in front of us is not the person on the account. For some reason they didn't understand that we had no way of knowing that until we had seen ID. When we asked we actually had idiots say "Why? I'm the owner of the account," as if we would turn red in the face and say "Of course you are. How silly of me to ask. Certainly a criminal would have provided us with ID without being asked."

      But if tellers ever get to the point that store clerks do (and I suspect many have) then any old schmoe will be able to take money out of your account. I can't tell you how many times I've had cashiers ring up a sale without ever even looking at either my ID or my signature on the back of the credit card. I've had times where I offered and was refused, as if they didn't want to have anything to do with security checks of any variety as that might bring upon them responsibility or something. I'm not talking about small purchases here either.

      So my point is, if bank tellers get to the point of laziness as most cashiers, you're money isn't safe in the bank whether or not you have an ATM card. The best you can do is keep an eye on it and report anything as soon as it happens.

      --
      Stop Global Warming!
      Just say no to irreversible processes!
    3. Re:The reality of this is... by drpimp · · Score: 1

      In lue of the good ol' days. What is your city and bank branch? I can just rob you the old fashioned way.

      --
      -- Brought to you by Carl's JR
    4. Re:The reality of this is... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      My dad has a similar attitude towards credit cards. Since declaring bankruptcy 25 years ago, he haven't had a credit card or bought anything on credit. When a truck dealership had a Labor Day sale on $10,000 trucks, he took an $8,000 cashier check in hand and asked to finance the rest. It took the dealership a while to figure out if he was credit worthy since had no credit record whatsoever. His boss paid off the balance when the first payment was due since the truck was used mostly for work. I kept asking my dad whatever happened to "cash is king" philosophy that he's been preaching for years. He told me to shut up. :)

    5. Re:The reality of this is... by Sillygates · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The ATM machines should directly encrypt the card info with the issuing bank's public key(or at least with the single operators public key, and then only get re-encrypted once, by that trusted machine)....that way the men in the middle/other banks along the way do not have the ability to see the transaction info

      --
      I fear the Y2038 bug
    6. Re:The reality of this is... by GreyPoopon · · Score: 1
      I kept asking my dad whatever happened to "cash is king" philosophy that he's been preaching for years. He told me to shut up. :)
      You dad was right, though. Cash is, indeed, king. The problem is that you have to be willing to save until you can afford to buy without credit. This is something that most of us, not even your dad, is willing to do. Credit is an all or nothing deal. You either play the game with all the risks, or you are generally excluded from borrowing money from anywhere except the institution where you do your banking -- unless you want to pay the "risk pool" interest rates. Since there's always a possibility you will need a new car on very short notice, the only way to play the cash game is to make sure you always have enough in reserve at the bank to buy the car. Sounds like your dad got lucky that they even let him finance at all.
      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
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    7. Re:The reality of this is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's your address?
      What are your work hours?

    8. Re:The reality of this is... by Takumi2501 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly my thinking.

      When I read the article, I couldn't believe that anyone would even consider building a "secure" system where third-party machines have to decrypt and re-encrypt such sensitive data... or any encrypted data for that matter... that's why it's encrypted in the first place.

      What did they hope to accomplish by doing this?

      --
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      Now GET OFF MY LAWN!
    9. Re:The reality of this is... by phorm · · Score: 2

      Heck, I've *love* to have the banks ask for ID a little more often. My experience was that in hitting a branch of the bank that I didn't patronize often (and staff I didn't recognise), I was able to just present my debit code and pull amounts under $200 without giving ID... and without needing to enter a PIN (the card was just to save the trouble of writing out my account # details).

      A little bit worrying if somebody could swipe my card and pull out cash right in front of the teller.

    10. Re:The reality of this is... by dreamlax · · Score: 1

      Most credit cards in NZ have PINs on them now. I used to work in retail and the number of customers that signed instead of using a PIN was very, very small. It was particularly the elder folk who are used to the more traditional way of paying by credit, and also foreigners and immigrants. (I explicitly said NZ because nearly every foreigner that I served at the retail store authenticated by signature). The banks actively encourage people to put them on. They also say that anyone with practice can forge a signature, but you can't forge a PIN.

    11. Re:The reality of this is... by An+Anonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      I've been a store clerk, and signature verification has nothing whatsoever to do with laziness. Clerks in your average grocery store aren't trained in handwriting recognition, so having them check your signature against the credit card is pointless. Consumers today are moving more towards wanting convienence over security. I had several customers that said they shouldn't even have to sign something for purchases under $50, citing the policy of the local CVS. People want to be able to just swipe&go. And why not, what with all the "no liability" credit cards out there. So if you want to blame the lack of signature verification on something, blame it on the average consumer.

    12. Re:The reality of this is... by ZzzzSleep · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Quoth Chosen Reject
      But if tellers ever get to the point that store clerks do (and I suspect many have) then any old schmoe will be able to take money out of your account. I can't tell you how many times I've had cashiers ring up a sale without ever even looking at either my ID or my signature on the back of the credit card. I've had times where I offered and was refused, as if they didn't want to have anything to do with security checks of any variety as that might bring upon them responsibility or something. I'm not talking about small purchases here either.
      Have a look at Zug's credit card prank http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit/ and be afraid for the security of your funds...
    13. Re:The reality of this is... by thatnerdguy · · Score: 1

      The signatures are just for records. at the convenience store i help manage here in montreal, we keep all the hard-copies of the receipts and the only we go back to look at something is if head-office needs something say for a charge-back or something. We have other policies in place to prevent malicious transactions.

      --
      I saw the Sign, and it opened up my eyes
    14. Re:The reality of this is... by jbertling1960 · · Score: 1

      If you pay minimum wage, you normally get minimum employees.

    15. Re:The reality of this is... by classic773 · · Score: 1

      I've been annoyed several times by cashiers needing to see my I.D. but in a slightly different situation. I had a line of credit at a jewelry store. Every time I went to make a payment against my balance (on an account in my name) with my credit card I had to show them my I.D... as if somebody is going to steal my credit card and then walk around paying my bills. Maybe there is something I'm missing, but I don't get how this could possibly protect me.

    16. Re:The reality of this is... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's against the law for you or any who may represent you (legally or not) to pay your way out of debt. I'll probably get a letter in a few weeks noting "suspicious activity" on my account since I paid it off today. Go figure.

    17. Re:The reality of this is... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      My address is at the North Pole (Christmas Season, you know). Watch out for the polar bear that sleeps on the mattress.

    18. Re:The reality of this is... by Majik+Sheff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's mostly historical. The ATM network was put in place when DES was considered an effective encryption algorithm. DES was nice because it could be easily implemented with a handful of logic gates and it was a public algorithm. It was also reasonably secure, when people couldn't buy a few gigaflops at CompUSA. Now the ATM network is just finishing up an end-to-end upgrade to 3-DES and I doubt the world's banks will be in a hurry to obsolete their networks again any time soon. Public key encryption is the right choice, unfortunately it's not the choice that our banking overlords have made.

      --
      Women are like electronics: you don't know how damaged they are until you try to turn them on.
    19. Re:The reality of this is... by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      That's very strange. At the two banks I use, I am required to swipe my card and enter my PIN for any transaction. I thought this was standard procedure. I couldn't imagine the bank allowing people to take out money without entering the PIN, or providing some other method of identification.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    20. Re:The reality of this is... by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I think it's kind of a way of laundering money. You sell drugs or other illegal items, then you pay off someones credit card, then use that credit card to buy things. Money becomes harder to trace. The authorities usually like to trace the bank accounts of suspected criminals to see how much money is going in and out. However, if the criminal uses other peoples accounts to spend their money, then the authorities can't trace it.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    21. Re:The reality of this is... by ldholtsclaw · · Score: 1

      Until a recent merger, my wife was the collection manager for a local bank. At least once a month she'd have a story of a teller allowing a withdrawal on an account flagged with a security note. Seems they couldn't read (or understand) the flashing red message stating "FRAUD WARNING - PASSPHRASE REQUIRED." There were also many cases of obviously phony deposits not having the required holds placed on them and stupid actions like blocking the security cameras. In one of these later cases, she was trying to get a photo of someone's use of a stolen card and all she could see was a stuffed bunny sitting on top of a monitor ... fortunately the thief was bold enough to do it again at another branch (he's now in jail).

      Like always, the weakest link is the people.

    22. Re:The reality of this is... by Nurgled · · Score: 1

      I like that anecdote on page 2 about a cashier having the card owner sign the card in front of her. Reminds me of when I was at my local supermarket and for some reason the Chip+Pin machine rejected my card and I had to give my signature. It'd been so long since I'd signed that I'd not noticed that the signature had faded away to the point that you could tell there used to be something there but couldn't make out what it was. The checkout clerk called a manager and the manager had me re-sign my card and go back to the checkout. Now my card has my signature surrounded by a blurry mess of the previous signature. It looks precisely like someone's rubbed away the old signature and signed again over the top... but no-one's called me on it yet.

    23. Re:The reality of this is... by KernelHappy · · Score: 1

      I used to be a engineer for a large debit card processor and switch. You are very correct, the amount of legacy support is astonishing. Prior to having ATALLA boxes, the pin block translation and decryption was done in software. After the migration to hardware encryption processors a rogue copy of the old software was kept around offline. A couple times that software was dusted off to break a key block for benevolent reasons (once was a production bug that nobody could figure out and the other was because a institution lost their master key and couldn't generate another one quick enough)

      Ultimately in the card processing industry seceurity is mostly a function of access control, not technology. People would ask me if I could steal money through the system and the answer was yes. The only problem is that I would leave my fingerprints all over the place and I couldn't steal enough to make it worth disappearing and leaving my life behind. Ultimately the cost to revamp the industry wide encryption is probably not justified by the actual exposure. In all reality it's going to take a very long time before the entire industry moves to any new technology, there simply isn't enough motivation to force the migration quickly.

      --
      -- Button up, your ignorance is showing
    24. Re:The reality of this is... by Stellian · · Score: 1

      My personal take on the "cash is king" issue is this:
      If the thing you are buying on credit does not make you more productive, and help you at least recoup the interest, then your finances are poorly managed; you spend more than you make, and end up paying more for the same quality of life.
      If however, you buy something that helps you make more money, then credit is a good idea: it helps you grow faster than a strict cash-only strategy.
      Note that the line between productive and unproductive investments is rather hard to draw: you should not buy a car on credit if you plan to use it only to impress your friends. On the other hand, a video console might be a good investment if you can relax using it and be more productive at work.

    25. Re:The reality of this is... by ZzzzSleep · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's a bit worrying really. Perhaps they just figure, if the card has been stolen it'll pop up on the screen, and so any signature checks are redundant.

  3. Fist Post? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    All your PINs are belong to us.

  4. Transmission of PINs? by stonertom · · Score: 1

    Why does the bank send the PIN at all, I thought the point of chip and pin cards was one-way encryption handled by the card?

    --
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    1. Re:Transmission of PINs? by harves · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, the bank needs *some* way to authenticate you. The bank cannot trust any device on the ATM network to say: "Hello, this is stonertom. Really really really."

    2. Re:Transmission of PINs? by drpimp · · Score: 1

      I didn't read the details of the attack so I don't know if this would solve the problem, but another way is time sensitive key/pin/card authentication in cards like found here

      --
      -- Brought to you by Carl's JR
    3. Re:Transmission of PINs? by Superpants · · Score: 1

      I work for a bank, in Canada, and the magnetic strip on the bank cards we use contain only the bank card number and perhaps some sort of code to prevent duplication. I'm not too sure on the exact details, but all the information like PIN#'s and accounts linked to the card are kept separate on the bank's servers. The reason of course why this is is because it would be unfeasible and a potential security risk if any information was stored on these cards. Card readers are one thing, but to have card writers at every branch would probably get a little expensive. Also, if a card does become compromised, the number is reported and becomes invalid. The customer gets a new card with a new number and links their new PIN to their new card and they're ready to go again. ATM hacking problems can be overcome with a little diligence as all ATMs at our bank's branches generate reports that get actioned everyday which can easily trace any suspect activity. I never actually read the article, but it appears like nothing but a little fear mongering.

    4. Re:Transmission of PINs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Here is reality:

      There are two types of HSM's: A mini one in each ATM that uses the Zonal encryption keys for the bank involved to encrypt something somewhat like the PIN entered by the customer. Of course if someone instrumented (tampered with) this module inside an ATM then they would get any PIN's entered. Also they could probably find other ATM's in the same area/bank using the SAME Zonal encryption keys (if the bank did not sufficiently distribute enough different keys to prevent this).

      Why is it a surprise that any "self-destruct" mechanism on such a device (that might only be worth a couple of K at wholesale) would not be fail-safe? It is just that the archane knowledge necessary to pull this off is so rare that a criminal organization would be lucky to figure out who to target let alone to actually recruit them (e.g. yes I sound like I know this stuff but I don't know how to do this either since I am not a hardware hacker).

      The other type of HSM is part of a very secure internal network at the acquiring institution/bank. That type might be more hackable since they do hang off IP networks and thus are more vulnerable just by their base technology. However, the actual access to these machines is closely secured (both physically and by remote access).

      So unless the "story" fits into the above or someone has been very lax in their other security procedures I am calling "likely BS!".

    5. Re:Transmission of PINs? by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      Card readers are one thing, but to have card writers at every branch would probably get a little expensive.

      Expensive? When was the last time that you stayed in a hotel with electronic door locks using magnetic cards? Most of them have card writers at the front desk where they pull a "blank" card from a pile, run it through the machine...

      Well... hmm... I'm making an assumption here that they *are* writing to the card instead of just pulling a pre-written number off the card to tell the electronic lock system what number to respond to.

      OTOH, plugging "magnetic card writer" into Google shows listings that are in the $180 range. Looking at eBay shows listings around $100-$120. And these are pretty small units.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    6. Re:Transmission of PINs? by stonertom · · Score: 1

      's probably a bit late, but o well. When I used pos devices, they can authenticate cardholders before they call the bank to authorize funds. I think it's also harder to clone the newer cards as they provide output from some kind of embedded code (like the differance between ripping off .html and .php files).

      --
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    7. Re:Transmission of PINs? by glesga_kiss · · Score: 1

      Most banks these days don't use the magnetic strip. It's there for backwards compatibility with ye olde ATMs if you ever encounter them. I haven't seen a card without an embedded chip for years. Stops the cloning problem at least.

    8. Re:Transmission of PINs? by Fred_A · · Score: 1
      I work for a bank, in Canada, and the magnetic strip on the bank cards we use contain only the bank card number and perhaps some sort of code to prevent duplication
      It might have changed nowadays but there used to be a one way hash of the PIN (or more likely of something like the PIN + some other not so easy to retrieve info such as the account number) on the magnetic strip so that the PIN could be authenticated by ATMs that didn't handle the embedded chip.

      AFAIK most ATMs still support the magnetic strip to accommodate the numerous cards worldwide that don't embed a chip yet.
      --

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  5. Intercepting Transmission by DigitalRaptor · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I saw a news report the other day of a guy that hooked his a device (it may have been an iPod) to the back of an ATM where the phone line comes out, and intercepted the signal transmitting the information.

    He was able to get credit card numbers, pins, and all of the other information transmitted, and stole a lot of money before being caught. And he wasn't caught by bank security or software, he was caught because a clerk was paying attention, IIRC.

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    1. Re:Intercepting Transmission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't we have an article about that here on /. last week or so? As I recall - and if it was the same guy - he was caught because he was speeding, and when stopped, the police then found a fake debitcard and eventually got the whole story from him.

    2. Re:Intercepting Transmission by DigitalRaptor · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here is the story.

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    3. Re:Intercepting Transmission by Intron · · Score: 1

      OMFG. They are sending all of the information on phone lines without encryption. What is this, the 1970s bulletin board era? These are the people we trust to build voting machines because of their security expertise?

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    4. Re:Intercepting Transmission by DigitalRaptor · · Score: 1

      No wonder some of them started making voting machines, too!

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    5. Re:Intercepting Transmission by bastion_xx · · Score: 1

      What story are you referring to?

      The only one that had inflammatory hand wringing was the Mp3 player that Sound emitted from the line is then interpreted using a modem line tap, or passed through a Ukrainian computer software program which is illegal to purchase.

      And yes, there is crypto, at least for US ATM networks, between the ATM and end unit HSM.

      This isn't a comment regarding the original article, just this particular story.

    6. Re:Intercepting Transmission by DigitalRaptor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This one.

      Also covered here.

      And here.

      If there was crypto used, it absolutely sucked.

      If all you need is a modem line tap or an illegal program to crack ATM's, there isn't much security is there?

      I don't think there is crypto. I think the information is sent across the phone lines as plain text. The purpose of the modem line tap or illegal program is to convert the signal going over the line (the same signal you hear when you pick up the phone during a fax or internet connection) to text. From there, no mention is made of encryption.

      See this page. "The Modem Line Tap, MLT2400A is a modem protocol analyzer that translates telephone data communications into standard ASCII characters for display on a PC screen."

      If the data was properly encrypted before it was sent, the hackers wouldn't have been able to use the data. If there was crypto, it was token crypto at best. Just enough to tell their share holders it was encrypted.

      --
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  6. Let's just get this clear right now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    First one to refer to "ATM Machines" or "PIN numbers" gets slapped.

    1. Re:Let's just get this clear right now... by rvw14 · · Score: 1

      I always us my PIN number in an ATM machine.

    2. Re:Let's just get this clear right now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always us my PIN number in an ATM machine.

      *SLAP*

      Don't say I didn't warn you.

    3. Re:Let's just get this clear right now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't warn me.

    4. Re:Let's just get this clear right now... by aaza · · Score: 2, Funny
      So I can't talk about the numeric identifier of a leg of an IC, or the machine that does asyncronous transfer mode?

      :-)

      --
      In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
      In practice, however, there is.
    5. Re:Let's just get this clear right now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean automated ATM machines? And your own personal PIN numbers?

    6. Re:Let's just get this clear right now... by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      Is this ATM machine based on Windows NT technology?

    7. Re:Let's just get this clear right now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly, many of them are.

    8. Re:Let's just get this clear right now... by LearnToSpell · · Score: 1

      The latter T is for Ten.

  7. Ambigious acronymns by brownsteve · · Score: 1

    Was it just me, or did I read "ATM network" and thought that it meant Asyncronous Transfer Mode network?

    1. Re:Ambigious acronymns by tedu_again · · Score: 1
      Was it just me, or did I read "ATM network" and thought that it meant Asyncronous Transfer Mode network?

      can't say for sure. what did you think?

    2. Re:Ambigious acronymns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. Everyone else knows how to spell "asynchronous".

    3. Re:Ambigious acronymns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just you, you fucking retard.

      Smooches,

      AC

  8. What's the big deal? by goldseries · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I am surprised this has not surfaced before. Every piece of technology can be hacked if given enough time and access. The only way to remain secure is to stay ahead of the hackers. FTFA: The attack theory is significant because it has long been considered impossible to access PINs as they are traveling through the ATM network without the encryption key used by the card-issuing bank. I am really quite surprised that it was considered "impossible" to hack for so long.

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    1. Re:What's the big deal? by FunkeyMonk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Most ATMs in America are manufactured by Diebold. Diebold has proven time and again that they consider all their products to be unhackable.

    2. Re:What's the big deal? by Mex · · Score: 1

      Well, credit cards are supposedly on the way out, aren't they? At least mexican banks are moving to a random key generator that you carry around. It's extremely beta, but it's slowly expanding.

    3. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I am surprised this has not surfaced before. Every piece of technology can be hacked if given enough time and access.

      This bizarre attitude always pisses me off. We're not even talking about "technology" here, we're talking about the protocol itself. Tell me, what do you really know about the cryptography they use in those boxes? Indeed, what do you know about cryptography at all? If you cannot prove that either, say, factoring is in P or that P != NP, how can you say that, say, a 2^20 bit RSA key "can be hacked if given enough time and access"? You can't, unless you by "enough time" mean more time than from now till the heat death of the universe. It is even more obvious with something like one-time pads. Use those, and I'd like to see you break the encryption no matter how freakin' long you have to do it. It's provably impossible.

      Just because lots of crappy technologies and protocols get broken left and right doesn't mean that there every protocol must be by some law of nature. Some can even be proven to be secure, like one-time pads.

      Besides, it's an amazingly dumb thing to say even if you were right that even all encryption protocols could be broken within (some reasonable) time. Because it hasn't been done yet. Do you understand the difference between knowing that something is possible and knowing how to do it? Obviously, nobody knew how to break ATM encryption for a long while, so that they have finally done it would obviously be a big deal, even granted your inane assumption that any cryptographic protocol must go the way of the Dodo in five years.

      I am really quite surprised that it was considered "impossible" to hack for so long.

      Let me reiterate: you know absolutely nothing about the encryption algorithm, and in all likelihood nothing about the field of cryptography at all. So what makes you think that your degree of surprise, or lack of it, when confronted with the hack is anything but completely uninteresting in every freakin' regard?

      God, people like you just piss me off no end. Keep your fucking vacuous smart ass comments to yourself next time, mmkay? It'll make Slashdot, and the world, a better place.

    4. Re:What's the big deal? by Twylite · · Score: 1

      Actually it has surfaced before. These researchers have extended attacks that were described in 2003, which in turn extended earlier attacks. Even before that ANSI & ISO issued several updates to PIN encryption standards to protect against known weaknesses.

      The oldest standards for PIN encryption used the naive approach of padding the PIN and encrypting it. For a 5 digit PIN this gives only 10,000 possible ciphertexts per key. The attacks describes by the Israeli researchers target this format.

      Better standards have been available since at least 1991. They combine the PIN with the account number before encryption, giving 10,000 possible ciphertexts per key per account. This is harder to attack. Even more recent standards (from 2001) include random data or a transaction counter before encryption, making each ciphertext unique. There are also key management standards dating back to the 1990s that use a unique key per transaction, which defeats most if not all of these attacks.

      The idea that these attacks are new and the system was thought to be unassailable before is just attention seeking.

      --
      i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
  9. 8 billion transactions per year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since PINs are usually just 4 digits, aren't 8e9/1e4 = 800,000 transactions per year already in danger?

    1. Re:8 billion transactions per year by ThomsonsPier · · Score: 1

      PINs are not unique.

  10. Holding All the Cards by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Every bank I know of with back-end offices here in NYC requires everyone passing through their building doors to use onetime password cards (usually RSA keycards) for access. Yet those banks all make us run around broadcasting our PINs to whichever fly-by-night ATM dispenses $100 latenight when we're drunk.

    The cost of chipcards that generate onetime passwords, to protect from replay attacks, is minimal. Especially compared with fraud and theft. What's taking them so long?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Holding All the Cards by bperkins · · Score: 1

      Accessiblity for one.

      Try reading one of those cards when you've had your pupils dialated sometime.

    2. Re:Holding All the Cards by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Why should I read the card? That's the machine's job. Letting me know the onetime passwords just increases the risk.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

    3. Re:Holding All the Cards by camperdave · · Score: 1

      One major credit card company is switching to chipcards in my country next year. They expect to be finished (ie almost all merchants and cardholders) switched over by 2010.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    4. Re:Holding All the Cards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EYet those banks all make us run around broadcasting our PINs to whichever fly-by-night ATM dispenses $100 latenight when we're drunk. Hmm. I don't think you understand. The pinpad from the ATM is a hardware encryptor, which has a NVRAM storing a encryption key; when you enter the pin, it sends to the ATM application the pin block (pin encrypted with it's enc key); so the PIN is not unencrypted anywhere. Then, the pinblock goes to the backend system which sends the pinblock to the HSM to unencrypt it with the ATM key and to encypt it with the VISA key; again, the original pin is found only in the HSM; he gets the visa key encrypted pin and it sends to visa; visa decrypts the pinblock with the atm's bank encryption key, re-encrypt it with the cardholder's bank enc key and sends it to the cardholder's bank bankend system, which (i'm not really sure about this part) sends pinblock to their HSM to compare it with the pinblock stored in their database (which is also encrypted by a backend-HSM key); and the HSM sends OK or NOT OK; again, the unencrypted pin is found only in the HSM

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_Security_Mod ule:Most HSM systems are also hardware cryptographic accelerators. Since they do not allow the keys to be removed from the device in an unencrypted form they must be able to perform the common cryptographic operations.


      The keys to be used in a HSM are generated by the HSM which holds the private key in it's internal memory and public key is in the the backend system or ATM pinpads, etc; so finding out the private key to decrypt the pinblock is not that easy.
      From the article which started all this concerns (http://www.arx.com/documents/The_Unbearable_Light ness_of_PIN_Cracking.pdf):

      The attacks require access (i) to the HSM in the attacked facility for executing API calls; (ii) to EPBs incoming to the attacked facility. So, it's not like OMG everyone can find out my PIN. This HSMs as they are crucial for card processing security are heavily guarded, limited physical access, private VLAN between them and the backend system, or connection using a serial cable etc. Also, those ATM switches they are reffering to are bank's card processing systems, Visa/Mastercard/Amex network, etc. The point of the article is that no matter what security procedures you set up in YOUR bank to secure the customer's data; if they withdraw money from a less "security-orientated" bank, or there's a security problem in Visa/Mastercard/etc network the pin can be found out. But this is pretty unlikely as security is primary concern in ALL banks.
    5. Re:Holding All the Cards by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      No, it's clear that you don't understand.

      The entire protocol that the banks currently use on my plaintext PIN is irrelevant. I have no way of knowing whether the ATM I'm swiping somewhere in the crowded downtown bar district, so drunk that I must have that pack of chocodiles and Dr Pepper, though I've spent all my cash on whiskey, is a trojan horse that's harvesting my PIN before sending it to the real ATM interface embedded in the trojan. Months later they replay my PIN and steal my money. I'll never find that ATM again to track who did it.

      So yes, in fact is is exacly like "OMG, anyone running an ATM can find out my PIN".

      A chipcard would generate a onetime password, typically sync'ed to time, though a serialized pseudorandom walk would do it, especially if reset every time I visited my own bank's ATM. The entire transaction would be encrpyted by the dumb terminal ATM using my OTP as the key, sent to my bank ecnrypted for validation - using my OTP (or its private key) as the decryption key, then returning a signed message to the ATM to issue me money. The ATMs would need to have readers for the chipcard, but those are as cheap as magstripe readers.

      The backend clearing of a charge is their problem to secure for themselves, as the banks are already using plenty of security to ensure they don't steal from each other, because they know they all would when they could.

      Meanwhile, a good chipcard would keep a transaction log with the ID of the ATM I used for later audits. A really good one would have multiple accounts for multiple banks, and keep my history and balances. Communicate with my mobile phone for a GUI. Maybe even hold the auth secrets for securing transactions over the mobile networks. So I don't have to trust these random ATMs, let alone stumble through bad weather in dark, unknown neighborhoods at weird hours looking for an ATM.

      The fact is that plenty of European banks, and some US ones, already use chipcards which can do all this today, and they're supercheap. Even at the lower scale economies before widespread US use.

      The point of my comment is that I don't trust these random ATMs, but I give them my single plaintext PIN every time I need the convenience. And that an OTP system like the one banks already use for physical access to their offices is entirely possible. And much more economical for everyone than the current system.

      The primary concern for banks is harvesting the lowest-hanging fruit, while not doing anything new or different, unless forced. The vast amount of loss to fraud, especially now falling on customers in ID fraud, demonstrates just how low is this priority. Especially when the solution is not even new to the banks existing operations.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  11. Danger by djupedal · · Score: 1

    "...the almost 8 billion transactions per year they handle may be in danger."

    It was as if the entire NCC had suddenly received the news, and the voices of NCC staffers across the country had cried out as one. We could only look at each other in stunned silence, afraid to speak, as if any utterance would risk making our greatest fear become real, and the terror would come out of the cold dark depths...t'would come for us - the KRACKEN!!!

  12. Easier to manually do it by Evets · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It would be easier to simply use a video camera over the shoulder of an ATM visitor, and just as effective.

    Using the information directly at an ATM to get a couple of hundred dollars would be too much effort, too high risk, and too little return. More likely, the PIN would be used to obtain larger sums of cash via other methods - calling in a bank transfer or something to that effect.

    While on the surface it seems unlikely that somebody would go through the hassle, if one gained access to the ATM network, and had means to unencrypt the traffic at least in part, there is a great deal more potential for crime than simply obtaining an ATM PIN number.

    Banks shouldn't be reliant on security at the switches either - all it takes is one bad employee to reduce the effectiveness of on site security to nothing, and I imagine with the pay rates they are kicking out, there are more than a few employees vulnerable to trouble of one sort or another.

    1. Re:Easier to manually do it by Gandalf_the_Beardy · · Score: 1

      Video camera's have long been used in the UK - there have been entire false fronts with video camera's fitted and a card skimmer as well. It reads the PIN, skims the card and still dispenses you your cash so you are none the wiser. Of course, they can then clone your card and extract money when you are gone. A lot of ATM's in the UK now have MOTD style warnings "Does this machine look tampered with? Call 0800-123456" or "If you notice anything suspicous about the front of this machine do NOT use it etc." See http://www.northeastfraudforum.co.uk/atmfraud.asp

  13. New Title to Earn? by failedlogic · · Score: 3, Funny

    So if someone cracks the system do they become "The Lord of the PINS?"

    Sorry, obvious pun joke. Had to make it. Any others?

    1. Re:New Title to Earn? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, I think that person becomes a "PIN cushion". :P

    2. Re:New Title to Earn? by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 2, Funny

      I knew a guy, went around resetting pins all over town, name 'o Brunswick, hella a guy.

    3. Re:New Title to Earn? by winomonkey · · Score: 1

      In the words of Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

      Pun is different from taking a popular-culture reference, such as The Lord of the Rings, and using a slant rhyme to make a humorous approximation of words that is relevant to the conversation at hand.

      ...you might even call your mistake ironic, no?

      [and the correct answer is no, it is not ironic]

      /EnglishMajorRant

    4. Re:New Title to Earn? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If a computer nerd is a chiphead, then what do you call a PIN hacker?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:New Title to Earn? by clickety6 · · Score: 1

      Unless they caught violating the PINal code and sent to the PINitentiary where they risk getting their own ATM PINetrated.

      --
      ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
  14. So just use it as a credit card? by letsgolightning · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I realize this topic is mostly meant for using a card at an atm to take out cash and the like, but whenever I use my debit card to actually buy something, I make sure to use it as credit, even though most stores' touch-and-swipe pads love to default to a keypad to enter a pin. I just hit 'cancel' then 'credit' and sign the screen. No pin gets transferred, so I don't have to worry about anyone stealing it. Usually, they ask for an id because my signature is so awful (added security for me). I get points for my purchases, which I may be able to redeem within the next decade. And best of all, if anyone does decide to defraud me this way, Visa and my bank will give me the stolen funds back (my bank covers the $50 or so 'deductible' that Visa normally wants). To quote Micheal Scott, it's a win-win-win. I'm safer, my money's safer, and Sam Walton gets less profits because he now has to pay Visa processing fees.

    --
    2^4 * 3 * 20929
    1. Re:So just use it as a credit card? by Intron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you pay your balance off every month, you are also getting an interest-free loan for up to about 45 days.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    2. Re:So just use it as a credit card? by letsgolightning · · Score: 1

      In the case I'm referring to, my card is a Visa-branded debit card, so my "credit line" is really what I have in my checking account, I can't go into the negative (or I get to pay overdraft fees, just like with checks). My point is that the Visa (or MC) logo on your debit card has a purpose that can help you, especially if you for some reason don't want or can't get an actual credit card. To put it another way: Every debit card can be used as a pre-paid, refillable (fee free, usually) credit card.

      --
      2^4 * 3 * 20929
    3. Re:So just use it as a credit card? by garcia · · Score: 1

      They don't make you sign these days (if it's under some unknown amount -- they all seem to be different) and I get cash back on my non PIN purchases.

      I never quite understood the reason for using it like an ATM when it takes so fucking long. I use a card because I want it to be fast (no ID checks, no signature, no change).

    4. Re:So just use it as a credit card? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      other than the fact that Sam Walton's dead...

  15. Haveing ATM's runing windows is not good too by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Windows as a lot Security Flaws in why can't they keep using os2 or why can't ibm come with os2 for atm's?

  16. Lucky You by camperdave · · Score: 1

    Some of us do not have a bank right on our corner. It would likely be a three hour ride on two different transit systems for me to get to my home branch. (Hey, I used to bank in an entirely different city 200+km from where I live). Since I only need to go to the branch once or twice every five years, it is not worth the hassle of switching. Internet and ATM is the way to go.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    1. Re:Lucky You by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      My checking account is at Washington Mutual since they have ATMs everywhere. But my savings account is in a credit union with very few ATMs and there's no local network ATM where I live. I write a check for CASH every two weeks that I deposit into my savings account by mail in special envelopes provided by the credit union. If I need to move money into my checking account, I can do a direct deposit from the credit untion website.

  17. Difficult to get really rich off ATMs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OK, so let's say you've either hacked the ATMs or some other aspect of the electronic banking system so you can make any ATM dispense as much cash to you tell it to dispense (limited only by the amount of cash the ATM contains). Let's also say you want to be rich - not just rich enough to pay for your retirement ($50,000 per year for 20 year for a total of $1 million) but you actually want to be able to eat at expensive restaurants and hire attractive women to be nice to you.

    To be precise, you want to be able to spend $100 an hour 24/7 for the next 50 years (attractive women cost at least that much). That's $100/hour * 24 hours/day * 365 days/year * 50 years or $43.8 million. So let's say you want to collect $44 million worth of cash from your hacked ATMs over the course of one year (if you keep hacking the ATMs any longer you risk getting caught). You're willing to work 40 hour weeks collecting the cash but you want two week vacation. That means you have to collect $44 million in 2,000 hours. That's $22,000 every hour. Assuming you can visit one ATM every 10 minutes, you have to withdraw $3,666 (183 $20 bills) from each ATM without attracting attention.

    The bottom line is that if you want to be rich, the electronic hacking is not the hard part. It's actually collecting all that cash.

    1. Re:Difficult to get really rich off ATMs by deadlock911 · · Score: 1

      how about you just pay for everything with duplicated Cards and stolen pins, getting a new card or 5 every morning when you wake up...why would you even use cash?

    2. Re:Difficult to get really rich off ATMs by Nivoset · · Score: 1

      this is also doing it in one year. gonna be allot of work for anyone. but spread it out over a few and your good

      --
      Movies made by a crazy person

      http://www.youtube.com/marginalpro
  18. Important holiday information by edwardpickman · · Score: 1

    Come on, post specifics. With Christmas around the corner we need all the help we can get. Have you seen the prices the new Elmo and P3s go for!

    1. Re:Important holiday information by Shadyman · · Score: 1

      Have you seen the prices the new Elmo and P3s go for!

      P3s? Whoa. Fast forward a few years. Now, we even have P4s. I know, can you believe it?

  19. Move to IP networks by brownsteve · · Score: 1

    This higlights the danger in not using the open industry standard for telecommunications: the INTERNET PROTOCOL! Granted, ATMs and banking networks have been around longer than the last 20 years when Internet adoption exploded. But all they need to do is update their networks to use an IP layer, and then encrypt the traffic with IPsec or TLS. Then you have end-to-end security on any communication channel, whatever the traffic flows. Problem solved?

    1. Re:Move to IP networks by kabdib · · Score: 1

      RTFA. Or rather, the paper. The attack in question takes advantage of weaknesses in the "API" to the hardware crypto.

      One reason that good security is so hard is that people think it's easy. Add to this a room full of old guard types who insist that *their* system hasn't been cracked in the 20 (or 30 or 40) years since it was first cobbled-up on punch-card-eatin' mainframes and you have a security disaster in the making.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced technology is insufficiently documented.
  20. It doesn't work the way the article assumes by mazphil57 · · Score: 1

    There is the assumption that the PIN is transmitted "in the clear" across the internal ATM/Pinpad network. I only know about pinpads, but in pinpads the PIN is encrypted in hardware using a key that changes each time. I would assume ATMs are equally secure. In some countries, I understand the entire transaction (PIN, amount, account number) are encrypted in hardware, so trying to replay the encrypted packet is a wasted effort. Any lack of security is caused by the same forces at play everywhere, the desire to use the cheapest "almost competent" programmers. In all fields "Point of Sale" related, I'm guessing 99.9% is now good enough rather than 99.9999%. I assume ATM's will follow.

  21. Diebold by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I knew something smelt rotten the moment the first windows dialog box flashed on as I was entering my pin. Looking into it I found that a lot of ATMs nowadays run on Windows, some ATM software supplied by Diebold. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that the ATM network is about as secure as Joe Six Pack's passwordless WLAN, XP SP1 ridden, all users admins, very own home network.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
    1. Re:Diebold by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Isn't Diebold the #1 supplier of ATMs in the US? I think I read that somewhere. My own personal experience indicates they are dominant on the left coast...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Diebold by garwain · · Score: 1

      Was at the bank last week depositing some checks, and halfway through the transaction an electrician tripped the wrong beaker... Next thing I knew, I saw a windows NT booting up... In the end, it took the atm almost 10 minutes to get up and running! Of course, I could be bothered waiting for it, I went to see a teller as soon as their terminals were back up, to see if my transaction made it through. I was lucky, and it has posted just before the power went, so I was only lacking the receipt. God, why would a bank use such old technology, and have a program on it that takes so long to load? I developed a linux system for a client that basically turned their employee ID cards into credit cards. The cafeteria, supplies room, and various other points that required employees to transfer either personal or department funds around had a microATX system that would boot in under 30 seconds, and had a card reader to allow the swipe of their employee card, and then depening on the "sale code" it would charge their personal account to be deducted from their pay, their department for costing, or offer the choice (in case they wanted office supplies to take home) Of course, it didn't have the same security level as a bank (I hope!!!) but added security shouldn't cause a system to be too much slower. Some points even used dialup, and could still complete a transfer in half the time an ATM or POS transaction usually takes.

    3. Re:Diebold by ipooptoomuch · · Score: 1

      Excessive aburdity but it was f'n hilarious. Good point.

  22. convergence! by abe+ferlman · · Score: 1

    Breaking News: Republican Congress rushes Vote-by-ATM bill through committee.

    --
    microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
  23. Re:Wrong by mpapet · · Score: 1

    I worked for a developer that did bank card software and the parent is right about physical security. The banks have thought long and hard about security regarding their card payment operations and they are generally well thought out and practical. Implementation is excellent at the facilities I have been to.

    The cost of chipcards that generate onetime passwords, to protect from replay attacks, is minimal.
    Not even close. Everything about the change is gigantic considering they would need to somehow interoperate with what's out there now.

    More importantly:
    1. Security is not a "feature" the vast majority of consumers of anything use when deciding to buy something.
    1a. Merchants absorb all of the fraud costs of using plastic, so no consumer cares.
    1b. Much like the way automobile safety features were forced onto the auto manufacturers, there would be a great deal of FUD from the banks if more security was regulated into their business. Banks certainly don't want to spend *more* money on the customer.

    If it's a big issue for you, you should probably stop using payment cards.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  24. ATM Windows errors by netsfr · · Score: 1

    I have seen several ATM's in the last year that have had:

    1. Mouse pointer hanging out somewhere on the screen
    2. error dialog box on the screen
    3. debug message/status code at the bottom of the screen
    4. Windows Login dialog flash by as the ATM is rebooting

    I never remember any UI issues in the years past, and as a Q/A Engineer makes me worried/mad that stuff gets out into public... How many millions $ do banks pay for this stuff?

    Of corse people here in the Phoenix area have been using older technology to steal ATM's... they have been pulling up with trucks/forklifts and just ripping the whole machine out of the walls...

  25. Chicago by Atmchicago · · Score: 1

    As long as the ATMs in Chicago are secure I'll be fine ;-)

    --

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.

    1. Re:Chicago by Suhas · · Score: 1

      Security through obscurity. Yeah, that works every time.

  26. Really, now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "an attacker could trick the security modules into exposing a PIN."

    Damn, and all these years I thought computers were all about logic.

    Now I come to find out that we can trick the damn things into doing our evil bidding.

    Crap... all those wasted years.

  27. No. Fcking. Way. by StikyPad · · Score: 1

    it may be possible for 'someone with access to the ATM network to attack the special computers that transmit bank account numbers and PIN codes

    Holy crap! People with access to a network can attack it? Next you're going to tell me that the only secure computer is one that's turned off, locked in a safe, and dropped to the bottom of the Marianas Trench.

  28. ok mr. paranoid by greymond · · Score: 1

    Really, "If PINs can be compromised, the almost 8 billion transactions per year they handle may be in danger. Not to mention all the transaction at retail stores." take a breath and calm down. It's not like any kid off the street with basic knowledge of a computer is going to be able to walk into radio shack and hack his way into your bank account. This isn't the movies, it's reality in order to pull this off you would have to have someone working in a bank and monitoring the transactions who would leak, reroute, or copy this information. All activities which would almost instantly flag him or at least have him arrested the next day.

    Hay guess what, that 16 year old who helped you in the washington mutual, when she pulled up your account info she had access to see how much funds you have, the type of accounts you have, and even your personal information like address and SS# - you want to know why she doesn't steal your info and cash? Cause she'd get found out very quickly arrested.

    1. Re:ok mr. paranoid by bridson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually I'd hope it because she is honest.

  29. What a coincidence! by Mark_in_Brazil · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Algorithmic Research (ARX) is a vendor of security solutions, including HSMs , and that ARX has been losing market share in that space for years and has a tiny market share (nCipher dominates the HSM market worldwide, Safenet, through acquisitions, has the next-largest market share, and then you start getting to competitors with very small market shares). I'm sure the researchers at ARX had no idea that almost all banks in the world use HSMs made by competitors of ARX and just wrote this paper to expose a very real security flaw, one that something tells me ARX HSMs don't allow...
    FWIW, ARX was actually something of a leader and had some cool ideas... several years ago. I'm not sure whether it was because of financial trouble, incompetent management, neither, or both, but they were lapped by players like nCipher, Luna (now part of SafeNet), Utimaco, even Thales, which focuses on serving the credit card transaction market but doesn't have things like Diffie-Hellman key exchange because VISA and Mastercard don't require them, and yes, even the old low-cost option, Eracom (bought by Safenet in order to do away with a pesky competitor).

    --
    "It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
    1. Re:What a coincidence! by khanyisa · · Score: 1

      Very interesting ... but if you read the article, they acknowledge that their hardware contains the same issues. These are because the protocols are the point of weakness, so the issues are required...

    2. Re:What a coincidence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you actually read the article?

      ARX sells hardware security modules to ATM networks, but Ostrovsky said its machines also are vulnerable to the attacks because they must communicate with other ATM network computers using the flawed protocols.

  30. Not impressed by the banking industry reassurances by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    A spokesman pointed out that you'd have to be on the same LAN segment as the Hardware Security Module to launch this attack. Considering that a technician with an infected laptop once put viruses onto ATMs, this is less comforting than it might be.

    (Still trying to wrap my head around every "switch" (router?) in the network decrypting and re-encrypting the PIN block. These being systems outside the control of the data owner).

  31. msnbc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    'msnbc' should instantly give you a clue that this is fear mongering... what else can you expect?

  32. Really Unlikely... by fixer007 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I work at a 'switch' that the article describes. It would be REALLY hard to do what they are describing, even having inside access. Not to say it couldn't be done, but the person doing it would have to have some serious clearance to get access to the HSM and the system it is on. If they do have that kind of access, it is pretty unlikely that they have the technical know-how to go about doing what the article describes.
    Usually the people that have the technical know-how don't have userid's or passwords to the production system, never mind the HSM.

    I would be much more worried about someone with a hidden camera getting your PIN in a gas station than this. Alot cheaper and easier to pull off.

  33. Root cause: playing with ciphertext by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1
    The paper points to a lack of serious integrity checking, which by itself opens up a whole family of crypto attacks. But another bad part is that the "switch" can rewrite PIN block formats. Of which there are too many. The attack sequence is to translate the PIN block into a format which doesn't contain an account number (but which does contain random data, the designers weren't quite that stupid), and then translate that block into another format which does include an account number. Which means you supply an account number in the API. Which means you have an encrypted block with a known account number, one of 10,000 possible PINs, and no padding or randomization. Which means brute force will get you the PIN really fast.

    There's another lesson about allowing too many options in your crypto protocols:
    It is well known that when several PIN block formats are available the security
    of the whole system degrades to the security of the weakest PIN block
    format. The attacks demonstrate that reformatting capability between different
    PIN block formats allows an attacker to abuse weaknesses of both formats.
  34. End-to-End Encryption? by linuxhansl · · Score: 1

    The problem appears to be fact that intermediaries in the network have to decrypt and reencrypt the PIN and related information.

    It is generally considered safer to do end-to-end encryption. The first ATM encrypts all the information and the intermediaries just pass through a collection of bytes (without needing to know what the bytes mean), once the bytes reach the target bank, the information is decrypted, verified and the response is send back (possibly encrypted as well). This way all tempering at intermediary hops is eleminated (assuming the encrytion has no flaws).

    1. Re:End-to-End Encryption? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, but it's probably a little impractical to have every ATM in the world know the keys for every issuing bank in the world, as well as having the ability to identify the issuing bank from the account number.

  35. You don't need ID by Mr2001 · · Score: 2, Informative
    I can't tell you how many times I've had cashiers ring up a sale without ever even looking at either my ID or my signature on the back of the credit card.

    They're supposed to check your signature, but not your ID.

    Remember those Visa Check Card commercials from a few years back, where some easily recognizable celebrity would walk into a store without his ID, try to pay for something with a check, and be frustrated when the clerk couldn't recognize him? The point was you don't need ID when you pay with Visa, you just need your signature. In fact, it's against Visa's merchant rules for a store to require ID with a purchase: they can ask, but if you refuse, they still have to go through with the transaction. (If they won't let you pay without ID, call (800) VISA-911 and file a complaint.)
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    1. Re:You don't need ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does VISA have to say about retailers who believe that a transaction may be fradulent - i.e. the card is stolen?

    2. Re:You don't need ID by tlhIngan · · Score: 1
      The point was you don't need ID when you pay with Visa, you just need your signature. In fact, it's against Visa's merchant rules for a store to require ID with a purchase: they can ask, but if you refuse, they still have to go through with the transaction. (If they won't let you pay without ID, call (800) VISA-911 and file a complaint.)


      Wow. I didn't know that. I guess I shall be calling it soon - EBGames always checks ID for all credit card purchases. (They have a sign, too...) And yes, they take Visa - I only carry a Visa card. Not only that, but they record down the ID presented and the number. I believe that would really be against their rules...

      Anyhow, how are merchants supposed to check signatures? If you don't sign the back of the card, they ask you sign right there, so the signature strip on the back is useless for comparisons. I believe the reason for the signature is that it forms a contract - the lines above the line say something to the effect of "I agree to pay the above amount", and forms the first line of defense for the merchant if there's a chargeback (not entirely reliable, but if there's a signed copy...). I can't recall what the purpose of the signature on the back of the card is for, other than maybe indicating that it's a valid instrument for financial transactions?
    3. Re:You don't need ID by Mr2001 · · Score: 1
      Wow. I didn't know that. I guess I shall be calling it soon - EBGames always checks ID for all credit card purchases. (They have a sign, too...) And yes, they take Visa - I only carry a Visa card. Not only that, but they record down the ID presented and the number. I believe that would really be against their rules...

      Indeed. Here are the merchant rules (PDF). Page 29 says "merchants cannot refuse to complete a purchase transaction because a cardholder refuses to provide ID. Visa believes merchants should not ask for ID as part of their regular card acceptance procedures. Laws in several states also make it illegal for merchants to write a cardholder's personal information, such as an address or phone number, on a sales receipt."

      Anyhow, how are merchants supposed to check signatures?

      Look at one, look at the other, and decide whether they match.

      If you don't sign the back of the card, they ask you sign right there, so the signature strip on the back is useless for comparisons.

      Well, it's useless that one time. But if you don't sign the back of the card, it's not valid anyway; you're supposed to sign it as soon as you get it.

      On the same page of the merchant rules is this procedure for dealing with unsigned cards:

      1. Ask for ID. (This is the only time it's acceptable to demand ID.)
      2. Ask the customer to sign the card while you watch. If he refuses to sign, do not accept the card.
      3. Compare the signature on the card against the signature on the ID.

      I can't recall what the purpose of the signature on the back of the card is for, other than maybe indicating that it's a valid instrument for financial transactions?

      It's there so merchants can make sure you're the same person who the card was issued to. Forging a signature isn't as easy as it sounds.
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    4. Re:You don't need ID by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      According to page 29 of this PDF: "If you are suspicious about the transaction or feel you need additional information to insure the identity of the cardholder, make a Code 10 call." Page 33 describes the code 10 procedure, which is basically just making a phone call and answering some questions, all done in a manner designed not to make the customer suspicious (which is why they call it "code 10" instead of "I think this card is STOLEN!").

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    5. Re:You don't need ID by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      The thing about these commercials that always got me was that they showed that you didn't need ID AND you didn't need a pin. They actively advertised that they were easy to commit fraud with. Combine that with the fact that the event that will make you notice the fraud is when your checks like rent or your mortgage payment start bouncing. It amazes me that people actually carry these 'take my money for free' cards.

    6. Re:You don't need ID by iamdrscience · · Score: 1

      Why? They're just as difficult (or easy as the case may be) to commit fraud with as a regular credit card.

    7. Re:You don't need ID by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Because when fraud is commited with a regular credit card, the process goes like this:

      Fraud occurs
      Bill comes
      You discover fraud
      You dispute charges
      End of story

      Whereas the story for check cards will more like go like this:

      Fraud occurs
      You get a notice from your landlord/mortgage company that your check bounced
      You get a notice from your credit card company that your check has bounced and that your 6.9% credit card is now a 21% credit card
      You discover the fraud
      You dispute the charges
      A day or two later the money might show back up in your account
      Your credit suffers
      You pay a ton more money on raised interest rates
      You spend a large amount of time trying to clean up all the cascaded damage that occurred from the check card fraud

      The banks know that the check cards have extreamly bad security. That is the point. To shift the risk to you.

    8. Re:You don't need ID by inKubus · · Score: 1

      I wrote "SEE ID" on the back of my card instead of signing it. In case it gets lost.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    9. Re:You don't need ID by 200_success · · Score: 1

      Are you telling me that you can rent a car on a Visa without showing your ID?

    10. Re:You don't need ID by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      That's not a valid signature, unless your name happens to be See Id. Your card is invalid according to Visa, and merchants who follow the rules are supposed to make you sign it in front of them, just as if you hadn't written anything there at all.

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    11. Re:You don't need ID by Mr2001 · · Score: 1
      The thing about these commercials that always got me was that they showed that you didn't need ID AND you didn't need a pin. They actively advertised that they were easy to commit fraud with.

      No, you still have to sign when you use them. Forging a stranger's signature is harder than watching him type his PIN.
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    12. Re:You don't need ID by Mr2001 · · Score: 1
      Whereas the story for check cards will more like go like this: [horror story]

      Indeed. The big difference between credit and debit cards isn't the ease of committing fraud, but the consequences of fraud if it occurs.

      However, the other debit cards are worse. Finding your PIN isn't any harder for a scammer than forging your signature, and on PIN debit cards, you don't have the fraud guarantees that you do with Visa - so not only will your checks bounce and your credit score fall, but you'll never see that money again.

      The banks know that the check cards have extreamly bad security. That is the point. To shift the risk to you.

      Nonsense. They have exactly the same level of security as a regular credit card. They do pose slightly less risk to the bank, since you're spending your own money instead of the bank's money, but something tells me the money they take in from credit card interest far outweighs what they lose to fraud.
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    13. Re:You don't need ID by Detritus · · Score: 1

      They are supposed to check that the card is signed, which indicates that the cardholder agrees to the issuer's terms and conditions. The signature on the card is not intended to be an exemplar. Clerks are not expected to be hand writing analysts.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    14. Re:You don't need ID by dwandy · · Score: 1

      No, he's telling you you can *pay* for the rental using visa without showing ID.
      The rental itself may or may not require the showing of ID but is unrelated to the payment.
      In other words, if you pay for the car rental in cash and don't provide a credit card in any way shape or form (good luck with that) then they would still demand ID - specifically a driver's license.

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    15. Re:You don't need ID by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I wonder if that's valid in Canada as well. Just about every grocery store I see says they require ID on credit card transactions over some specified amount. Usually something low like $50. If this is in the merchant agreement, then I think they should have their credit card privileges taken away for 1 month or something if they are asking for ID. I guess the problem is that they can still ask, but they can't refuse you if you don't present ID.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    16. Re:You don't need ID by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      If "X" is a valid signature, then so is See ID. Many people's signatures don't look anything like their actual name, and are often illegible anyway. See ID should be a perfectly acceptable signature.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    17. Re:You don't need ID by Mindzai · · Score: 1

      You think thats bad... my local supermarket has self service checkouts where you ring through all you own stuff, then you just have to swipe the card to pay! No pin, no sig check, nothing!

    18. Re:You don't need ID by Mr2001 · · Score: 1

      Actually, the name you sign doesn't have to match the name printed on the card, so I suppose "See ID" could be a valid signature if you decide you want to do that. Of course, you'd have to sign your charge slips the same way. And if you're worried about someone forging your real signature, surely it's easier for them to forge this "signature", so what's the point?

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    19. Re:You don't need ID by Mr2001 · · Score: 1
      The signature on the card is not intended to be an exemplar.

      Yes, it is. From page 28 of the Rules for Visa Merchants:
      The final step in the card acceptance process is to ensure that the customer signs the sales receipt and to compare that signature with the signature on the back of the card. When signing the receipt, the customer should be within your full view, and you should check the two signatures closely for any obvious inconsistencies in spelling or handwriting.
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  36. Surprising - well, not really... by aedil · · Score: 1

    The saddest of all this is that the ATM implementation as it is used in the US suffers from quite a lot of security concerns, whereas one of the very first multibank banking systems was able to a much better job at security earlier on. Take for example BANCONTACT (BankSys in Belgium). They engineered the system to avoid transmitting the PIN, and to avoid requiring banks to actually record the PIN anywhere in their system. While a lot of the finer details are not really public, the core of the design revolves around building a concatenation of the account/card number, the PIN, and some other numeric identifiers that specify things like country code, bank code, etc... That number conveniently ends up being just enough digits to fill a 56-bit register, that with appropriate padding, turns into a 64-bit input entity for a DES-based encryption module. It isn't pure DES, and the key for the encryption is a combination of keys submitted by the participating banks. The result is what gets sent across the wire, and the banks (and BankSys) only uses that encrypted result as identifier. As such, there is no need to know the user's PIN (and in fact, it is really not stored). Of course, changes have been made to this design over the years (this was early 90s), but the back design goals remained the same: security!

    Compare that to US banks that commonly can *mail* (through the US Postal Service) user's the PIN for their ATM card. I had that happen to me multiple times. Same with credit cards... All those notes in the mail to tell me what my PIN is... Plain stupid and very insecure.

    It just shows how you can take a pretty well designed (and secure) system, even visit the designers and implementors to learn from it, and then to go back home and screw it up in various ways to make it less secure. Why? I honestly don't know.

    1. Re:Surprising - well, not really... by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      Heck Even Windows NT doesn't transmit password (LAN Manager Passwords) over the wire, encrypted or not.
      If i read Inside Windows NT correctly, Windows hashes them with an algorithm, gets the hash from the server and compares the hashes alone.
      So the password is never ever sent across.
      What can't we do the same for the ATM cards.
      I believe the new Smart Cards in use in UK are capable of doing that.
      Even in 2001, Australia's EFTPOS had a similar facility. I had bought Sydney Morning Herald, and a bottle of LIFT (coke's lime drink) every morning and paid by EFTPOS and i think it used PIN hashes.
      But my friend in Westpac bank used to say the Fibre Optics that ATM uses to communicate used to carry pretty much weak encrypted stuff to cater to faster response times. (The older ATM's in Sydney, esp. in Ashfield has a one liner screen and were slow).

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    2. Re:Surprising - well, not really... by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      The result is what gets sent across the wire, and the banks (and BankSys) only uses that encrypted result as identifier. As such, there is no need to know the user's PIN

      The problem with designs like this is that the PIN usually is just 4 digits. So while you can put a lot of effort in a complicated encryption mechanism that is supposed to be nonreversible, it is very easy to bruteforce. Just try all 10000 possible pins (in fact fewer, because combinations like 0000 are never issued) and see if you arrive at the same encrypted result. When you do, you have found the PIN.

      The dedicated hardware (and firmware) that is supposed to validate the PIN should contain some "failed attempt counter" that blocks the validation after 3 attempts or so.
      But a system built to mimic the behaviour of the official systems does not necessarily do that.
      And even in those official systems, there may be APIs at a low level that perform one validation and can be called in a loop without triggering the blocking mechanism.

  37. This is highly unlikely by marcgvky · · Score: 3, Informative

    I personally have experience configuring the HSM's and implementing the types of security referred to in this article. To understand how unlikely this hack is, I would have to go into a deep conversation with regard to how these HSM's are supposed to be configures and implemented. The brief version: Typically, PIN's are stored by your card issuer ONLY in their encrypted format. The keys that do the encryption are stored in the HSM and SHOULDN'T be exportable. When enter your PIN at a POS or ATM, it is 3DES encrypted and sent over the wire as an encrypted pin block (EPB). When an inbound EPB is fed into the HSM, the originating bank pulls an encrypted version of your PIN and feeds that into the HSM. The HSM _should_ be a black box and decrypts both in inside of protected memory, makes a comparison of the two PIN's, and returns TRUE or FALSE. PIN's are stored by the card issuer in encrypted form and are NEVER reversible to people. When you forget/lose your PIN, the card issuer will typically issue a new PIN. That's because they CAN'T read a PIN. The PIN is DES encrypted by a symetric 128-bit key that is encrypted by another key which is NEVER NEVER known to any human. If this hack is proposing to repeatedly "guess" EPB's until they get one right, or do EPB->EPB translation until they get something that makes sense.... you would be better off buying lottery tickets. LOL

    1. Re:This is highly unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      possibly easier to target the 'true false' message coming out of the black box

    2. Re:This is highly unlikely by Twylite · · Score: 1

      The attacks described are against the PIN Translation function, not PIN Verification.

      PINs, as you will know, must be formatted before encryption. ANSI X9.8 and ISO 9564 provide standards for PIN formats. You should also know that in its passage across a network, a PIN goes through several zones, and is changed not only from one encryption key to another, but also from one format to another, according to the zone.

      The attacks exploit the fact that you can change the PIN's format, in particular the ability to change the format to a legacy one that does not include the user's account number or random data along with the PIN. In such a format there is only one possible ciphertext for every clear PIN (under a given key); or 10,000 ciphertexts for all possible 5 digit PINs.

      So assuming you have those 10,000 ciphertexts and access to an HSM that will reformat the PIN to a format that excludes the account number, you can just look at the encrypted PIN and know which clear value it must correspond to. This is much like guessing hashed passwords (and in this case the password can only be 5 digits!).

      You can read the paper to understand how they get those 10,000 ciphertexts ... it's quite clever ;)

      --
      i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
    3. Re:This is highly unlikely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work at a well known bank in the NOC but I was in the the ATM support group for some time. The ATMs do use 3des encryption which is directly related to the pin pad on the machine. any time the pad was replaced, 3des had to be reloaded. we have diebold, ncr, and wincor/nixdorf atms (a division of IBM). Before 3des it was a lengthy process to replace the keys. we had to send out a vendor and a bank employee to enter the keys manually via a magtek device. 16 digit strings of numbers are very easy to screw up. needless to say the process had to be repeated numerous times due to mis-keying. Now they're just downloaded through an edm connect! All praise tcp/ip!

  38. Diebold: by Ian+Alexander · · Score: 1

    Diebold: No, really, your honor! We weren't rigging your election, we're just incompetent! *Points to insecure ATMs*

    Sorry if that sounds a little trollish, but it really is what I first thought of when I read the headline :).

  39. Re:Wrong by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    I've worked developing infosystems, often secure ones, for many banks, for over a decade. US, Canadian, European. Familiar depositors, commercial, credit corps, insurance, brokers, interbanks. Banks are a bizarre world of risk-averse analysis and dizzying unnecessary risk taking.

    The cost of chipcards, and the key infrastructure, is minimal compared to the profits the banks make off of us. And compared to the costs of losses in security. And the costs of losing customers. What about the ATM thefts we're discussing in this story?

    If security isn't a selling feature, why do I see several bank ads a day pitching their ID theft services?

    If you think merchants absorb the costs of losses due to insecure cards, you don't know where merchants get their money from to pay their bills.

    Currently banks do leave consumers paying the time, effort and risk costs of ID theft. That would be a good basis for consumer protection security requirement laws, because the banks haven't made the changes themselves, despite their self interest in doing so.

    Just because banks are too lazy and complacent making vast, unprecedented profits despite their security problems and losses, as well as customer churn when burned by ID theft and fraud, doesn't mean that consumers should be unprotected. You know that banks didn't protect themselves from the overextensions that the 1929 Crash caused, right? Not even by 1934, when the Congress finally reformed banking. Though the 1895 Panic had a similar lesson to teach. And previous collapses, for hundreds of years.

    Banks are like any protected upper-tier global corporate entitlement class. They spend their time shooting fish in a barrel, plucking the lowest hanging fruit. The only hard stuff is rigging the system to perpetuate their power to make ever more money. Depositors aren't important, except when they're regulated, or cause large losses in massive numbers - very rarely. And history shows that they don't change to reflect those savage lessons.

    If you think the solution is for me not to use payment cards, rather than urge better security for people like me (most of us), then you deserve a corner office at a bank.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  40. Who knew the system was this broke? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My thoughts exactly.

    There must be some reason (I hope) but the security model that they're describing in TFA seems horribly flawed. It depends purely on the security of some black-box hardware modules embedded at different points in the system.

    Basically, what they're saying is that there's no end-to-end encryption of your "PIN block" (PIN+Account number, don't ask me why they're transmitted together instead of separately with some random transaction identifier). Instead, the ATM encrypts it for the next machine in the network, where it's decrypted and re-encrypted inside an (assumedly secure) hardware module. Then it's passed to the next link in the chain, ad infinium.

    This wouldn't be bad, if the ATM first encrypted the PIN block using the public key of the eventual destination bank -- after all, the intermediate machines have no reason to actually know your information, they're just shuffling bits. However, to just use this transmission-level wrapper without actually encrypting the data seems horrifically stupid. It's nothing but 'security through inconvenience.' (It's not exactly even obscurity, since people seem to know how the system works, they just make it inconvenient to intercept the information by making the places where it's unencrypted relatively small.) From a crypto perspective, it's a broken system.

    --
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    1. Re:Who knew the system was this broke? by Twylite · · Score: 1
      From a crypto perspective, it's a broken system.

      No, it's not. Translators of this nature are used in numerous crypto systems.

      In any system you have to balance risk with practicality. The risk in this case (a symmetric system) is protocol insecurities and protecting the physical security of several processing points. The practical value (besides not having to change a system that has worked for decades) is that symmetric crypto is cheap to implement in hardware (asymmetric has been very expensive until recently) and puts less demands on communication (number and size of messages, which affects the amount of time you wait for the transaction to be verified).

      In an asymmetric system you still have the risk of protocol insecurities, but less processing points to protect. You add protocol insecurity risk (because you must use a PKI to distribute keys), and until recently you would have added cost (asymmetric crypto is either slow or expensive).

      This is not, as the article may imply, an attack on the crypto infrastructure. It is an attack on a particular weak method of PIN encryption combined with an attack on a legacy support function that allows you not only to translate the encryption of a PIN, but reformat it (i.e. change the method of encryption) as well. If banks stopped using encryption methods for PINs that are known to be insecure, this problem would go away.

      --
      i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
    2. Re:Who knew the system was this broke? by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1
      There must be some reason (I hope) but the security model that they're describing in TFA seems horribly flawed. It depends purely on the security of some black-box hardware modules embedded at different points in the system.

      Basically, what they're saying is that there's no end-to-end encryption of your "PIN block" (PIN+Account number, don't ask me why they're transmitted together instead of separately with some random transaction identifier). Instead, the ATM encrypts it for the next machine in the network, where it's decrypted and re-encrypted inside an (assumedly secure) hardware module. Then it's passed to the next link in the chain, ad infinium.
      No it's not. Think about it - it's the same issue with Trusted Computing - if you have the PIN encrypted with the receivers public key, then think about how hard it would be to change the system if the private key was compromised. Or, if you negotiated the use of a public key, then it would still leave it open to attack. By having the multiple nodes where the encryption is applied, then the end-node where the user inputs their card data does not have to know anything about the receiving node at the very end of the chain.

      While this system provides an ability for a single node or account to be compromised, the integrity of the system as a whole - all the other nodes and accounts - are safe. It would take a tremendous amount of work to compromise the entire system. So this design is, for the entire system, a lot safer and smarter.

      (Trusted Computing has the same kind of issue as one the hardware key is cracked, anything can happen. Their goal was to make it difficult to do, but each system is identifiable by only a single, unchangeable key that is locked in the hardware; so once it is cracked, anything the system used that key for is compromised. Thus, Trusted Computing fails even there; though it fails for other reasons too.)
      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
  41. This looks like a real issue to me by netchipguy · · Score: 1

    I've read a lot about encryption exploits and this has to be one of the simplest. No compute power, no tricky timing, nothing. I'm amazed it's taken this long for such a simple exploit to surface. To address most of the comments by class:

    Why are the banks so stupid, they should encrypt end-to-end, use better protocols, etc
    The system is 30 years old and evolved from different networks that were glued together over time. The fundamental assumption being that only the physically sealed HSM boxes handle decryption/encryption, and that any snooping/forging of data between HSMs is not a threat. Which has been proven wrong.

    It would be easy to catch perps
    Maybe in the West it would. But not so easy when someone is pulling cash from the Middle East or the ex-Soviet block countries for example. No encryption keys are assumed known. The actual ATM time required is only 100 transactions with incorrect pins and arbitrary account numbers. A fair number of HSM transactions are required, but this can be automated from an infected machine within a bank or waypoint. No HSM or encryption hacking itself is required.

    The data is encrypted and so it's one in a billion to crack it
    The encryption is never broken here. The point is that a very limited number of plaintexts are exploited (10,000) via attacking the least secure PIN transport format, in combination with a practically constant "transport" key, resulting in the ability to directly compare encrypted output against a table to determine the PIN that is within an arbitrary EPB that is reformatted to the insecure format (a standard operation for the HSM).

    They can fix the protocol
    Not without overhauling a lot of infrastructure that's been built up for 30 years, belonging to a lot of different entities in a lot of countries. Who's gonna pay for all that?

    You never could trust dodgy ATMs, tellers, etc
    True, but they also stand a much greater chance of being caught. They are the endpoints, which were always an issue. Now anyone with access to the data going in and out of an intermediate HSM can steal your pin, which is a much more anonymous situation.

    The net effect of this is that you should watch your bank account for withdrawals you didn't make (duh). Especially if you are pulling money in foreign countries. The banks are going to need to roll out fixes to this, probably starting with more direct routes from ATMs to the host bank. We may see "trusted" ATMs popping up in the interim (i.e. "this ATM is certified, and has a direct link to Wells Fargo").

  42. You know it is a real threat when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... they automatically "downplay" it. Its pure psychology.

    Do they really think we are that stupid?

  43. nothing new here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thank you, israeli researchers, but it seems you missed the 2003 paper of Cambridge, UK researchers, which describes exactly the same kind of attack:
    http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-560 .pdf

  44. Not possible with smart cards by bdauvergne · · Score: 1

    If i understand how smart credit card function the pin is just used to identify yourself to the card,
    so these problems seems unexistant in country using smart card instead simple magnetic bands.

  45. smart cards irrelevent .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    The use of smartcards won't make a difference as the authorization code still has to travel across the network. As this article points out it is this security system that is open to being hacked. As such all pins, data are exposed.

    "a fundamental weakness in the system that banks use to keep debit card PIN codes secret while they are transported across bank networks"

    was Re:Not possible with smart cards

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  46. real serious security flaw In ATMs .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    This was stored as an image for some reason

    "At the STM, the information is combined into a format called a PIN block, scrambled, then passed along the network. The intermediate steps are called switches, and these are rarely owned by the cardholder's bank. So at each step, the PIN block is unscrambled and rescrambled with a new key i a machine called a hardware security module (HSM). It's at these intermediate points where hackers could trick the machines into divulging PINs, Israeli researchers say."

    Actually a UK security researcher published a method of getting the HSM to divulge the master key. These are delivered to the bank and require two people to enter unique keys to program for use. The method involved successively entering these keys the results from which the master key can be deduced. The original URL seems to have disappeared.

    http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/11/atta cking_bankc.html

    On another note, does anyone remember when phantom withdrawals were a regular occurrence here in the UK. Well later on it was discovered that the staff at the card issuing facility had discovered a way of producing ATM cards with the same three PINs. They then sold on the PINs to the criminal fraternity. That URL has also disappeared.

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  47. ATM Security by BrendaLou · · Score: 1

    There are only a handful of organizations that host ATM networks. They frequently publish and impose audits to ensure the money is safe. As we all know, technology and its conveniences make life a lot smoother for us. Thus, I will continue to use electronic mediums to transact business to prevent standing in a bank line...As one individual posted, let enough people get ripped off and you will see the situation addressed (paraphrased). Of course, you can count on one thing for sure, if an official in Washington is a victim of electronic fraud through the use of an ATM, you can bet, ATMs will become more regulated. However, a word of caution, I'd rather have private corporations ensure ATM networks are secure for electronic exchanges instead of the government. History shows that more penetration comes from within their (government's) confines instead of the general public overall.

  48. Re:Yes and No by mpapet · · Score: 1

    If security isn't a selling feature, why do I see several bank ads a day pitching their ID theft services?
    Because this is easier and more profitable than going to a proper microprocessor smart card. More importantly, the banks get to promote the perception that they are running a tight ship.

    I entirely agree with your comments regarding the history and profile of banking. In the U.S. anyway, it seems policy/regulation is not preventative. Sadly, I think another massive failure will be required.

    Your comments show you do indeed have first-hand experience in banking. How would individuals go about starting a competitor to the current banking system? Seriously, what would it look like? I want to hear your ideas. mpapet(nospam)@-stillnospam-yahoo.com

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  49. Simple solution, unlink your checking account from by tuskentower · · Score: 1

    your primary deposit account. Or, simply open a checking and savings account and disabled that stupid auto-replenish checking account from savings account option. Just remember to transfer money into your savings when you deposit money into the account. Now I don't remember for sure if you can access your savings account via the ATM (might be possible).

    My checking account and savings accounts are held at different institutions for financial reasons (good APR). This has a nice side effect of letting anyone jack my checking account but leave my real savings safe.

  50. I Agree, I'm a Luddite, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't hold with any of this newfangled ATM hacking, either. Why back in my day we had to hack into banks with guns and dynamite and we liked it! Everyone at the branch would give you all the cash you wanted and they'd never ask you a lot of nosy questions, neither.

  51. Re:Yes and No by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    I think the best way for consumers to take these matters into our own hands is to start with controlling our own client HW/SW, including these bankcards. I mentioned elsewhere in these subthreads that I'd like my smartcard to keep transaction histories for multiple bank accounts in multiple banks. With an interface, maybe Bluetooth, for using my mobile phone as the GUI. The next step to making the smartcard encrypt the transactions for transmissions thru a transparent ATM that's merely the gateway to the bank WAN would be very short. It wouldn't be hard for people to pressure a small bank among the account maintainers to go with the end-to-end encrypted system with OTP. Maybe a credit union, or a large corporation/association's health insurance claims. Then the others would hurry up to compete, even before understanding the specific benefits.

    In other words, consumers must sieze control of our transactions, and level the playing field for all the account maintainers. Then raise the bar on one institution, and watch the others follow. The economics do work, but they must be applied.

    This will probably happen naturally in the US within 15 years. I just want to cut our losses now.

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  52. Re:Smart Card by mpapet · · Score: 1

    I'd like my smartcard to keep transaction histories for multiple bank accounts in multiple banks.

    Better e-purses already do this. They don't do multiple bank accounts though. That would require either multiple e-purses or "one purse to rule them all..."

    encrypt the transactions for transmissions
    Better epurses do something like this now. Essentially mutual authentication followed by password. From there the entire transaction is encrypted between the terminal and the card. The beauty of a proper smart card is to handle all of the transaction on-terminal. Eliminates most of the PIN database problems. Most of the rest of the world is moving quickly to this kind of banking. I'm not sure what will happen with U.S. being the *last* one.

    bluetooth
    Make this last on your list. This is *much* harder than it sounds.

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    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html