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Supreme Court to Rule On 'Obvious' Patents

vocaro writes "The U.S. Supreme Court appears ready to rewrite the standard of what makes a patent 'obvious.' In a case before the court, brake manufacturer Teleflex is accusing a rival, KSR International, of violating its patent on a brake assembly. Large patent holders, including Microsoft, IBM, and Cisco, have submitted briefs supporting KSR, saying that true innovators can have a patent held up against them that reflects nothing more than an obvious combination of preexisting elements, then be told they have to leave the market or pay royalties. The court appears to be on KSR's side, saying that Teleflex's invention would have been obvious to an individual of reasonable skill. During oral arguments, Justice Breyer observed, 'It looks to me at about the same level as I have a sensor on my garage door at the lower hinge ... and the raccoons are eating it. So I think of the brainstorm of putting it on the upper hinge.'"

239 comments

  1. Yeah for the raccoons by Pharmboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Gotta love the analogy with the raccoons. Sounds like a judge finally gets it.

    --
    Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    1. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Rodyland · · Score: 5, Insightful
      As with most, inclined to agree, however I like this quote from the article:
      In hindsight everybody says, 'I could've thought of that,'...

      Strikes me as true, and as always when claiming something is obvious, it begs the question "how come you didn't think of it then?"

      I think this exposes a fundamental problem with the system - you have judges and lawyers deciding what is and isn't obvious/patentable. And I think that a swing too far in the opposite direction would be just as harmful as the (current) swing in the direction of extreme patentism (hah, I just made up a word). Of course, it'd be an interesting thing to behold.

    2. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Common sense analogies like this show why the Justices are some of the greatest legal minds of our age.

      Lower courts might like to play around with definitions and rules, but the Supreme Court doesn't have to do that (almost by definition). I strongly suspect the ruling in this case is going to be unanimous against these obvious item patenters.

    3. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by eric76 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm wondering just what the hinge is made of if raccoons can eat it.

    4. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by flyingsquid · · Score: 4, Funny
      Gotta love the analogy with the raccoons. Sounds like a judge finally gets it.

      In related news, a Supreme Court Justice is being sued for patent infringement by DoorCo, a manufacturer of garage doors and door sensors...

    5. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Well, what about the patent on the raccoon genes? I daresay this Justice is treading on dangerous ground. Is he saying he's got these raccoons on his property without a license?

      Let's say, for the sake of argument, the raccoon is there legitimately. What right does this judge have combining the raccoon and the garage door sensor?

      Alright, alright, say the honorable man isn't participating in the theft of any physical inventions. But, hell! If this here raccoon situation is entirely imaginary, that sounds suspiciously like "intellectual" property to me.

      I just can't see any other possibilities there, and I'll be damned if he gets away with it.

    6. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      I strongly suspect the ruling in this case is going to be unanimous against these obvious item patenters.

      Which is all fine and good if they simply find this particular patent obvious. But if they are going to change the test for obviousness, then I wonder what it might be? The justices surely didn't give any insight into what the proper test for obviousness should be, they only said they didn't like the current test.

      Hindsight is a real problem -- almost every invention is obvious in hindsight. The trick is to figuring which inventions are obvious before anyone else sees how to do it.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    7. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Gotta love the analogy with the raccoons. Sounds like a judge finally gets it"

      We finally got a judge that was smarter than a racoon.

    8. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Steel.

      This message brought to you by Palonium brand Raccoon Feed. It's not just for killing Russian spies anymore.

    9. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Ucklak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Didn't think of it then because raccoons weren't a problem before.

      Why should I pay someone for an idea I had just because they account for raccoons first?

      There shouldn't be a patent for any specific pattern of 4 screws on a piece of material yet that is what the case is about.

      Microsoft wants us to pay them for double clicking icons. What if a double click is an oops click?

      I'll patent the process of unbuckling your seatbelt as you take the keys out of the ignition at the same time as I thought of it before I heard that it is a procedure that UPS mandates their employees use.

      Who is right then?

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    10. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by raehl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Strikes me as true, and as always when claiming something is obvious, it begs the question "how come you didn't think of it then?"

      Because they didn't have a reason to think of it?

      Or it uses new technology didn't exist when they last encountered the problem?

      For example, good, free database software has recently become available, making it feasible for many people to apply databases to problems who didn't have that option before.

      So does that mean the first person in any industry to become aware of database software should be able to get a patent on "Using a database to solve this problem"? No. And letting the first person to realize this obvious application of databases to patent it is BAD for EVERYONE.

    11. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Pharmboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No matter where you "draw the line" in reference to what is obvious and what is not, SOMEONE will always get hurt. Absolute rules, while sometimes necessary, tend to do that.

      I believe the goal is to set a rule that hurts as few as possible, and with the same number of people on both sides of the issue. The goal of any judicial system isn't perfection, just fairness.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    12. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...it begs the question "how come you didn't think of it then?"

      Because I wasn't being paid to design one.


    13. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Sounds to me like Justice Breyer never had a 'coon in his garage; they're cute as hell but smart, manipulative, curious and have a mischievous streak a mile wide. Move the sensor wouldn't even be an inconvenience to them.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    14. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Qzukk · · Score: 3, Informative

      when claiming something is obvious, it begs the question "how come you didn't think of it then?"

      Because whether or not I "thought of it" has nothing to do with whether or not it's obvious.

      If I walked up to ten random people and said "When it rains, water floods the ditch where I keep my TV and ruins it, what should I do to keep the TV safe?" How many of them do you think will say "move it somewhere else!" Does the fact that they never had to save a TV that was in the middle of a ditch or had their TV short out in the rain make the answer any less obvious?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    15. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by zappepcs · · Score: 1

      That, more often than not, is not so difficult as you might imagine. Take, for instance, the patent suit against RIM by NTP. NTP contends that they have a valid set of patents, but when you look at how email was forwarded to early paging devices, their patent looks blatantly built upon quite obvious technological steps rather than something new and unobvious.

      This, no matter what bumps might arise, will help to even out the patent trolls, and stop stupid patents.

      The trial that the USPTO is using, not unlike /. itself, may help to make more sense of what is obvious and what is not.

    16. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by JourneyExpertApe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Strikes me as true, and as always when claiming something is obvious, it begs the question "how come you didn't think of it then?"

      Isn't the whole point here that KSR did think of it, and they just thought it was too obvious to patent?

      --
      If you can read this sig, you're too close.
    17. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by raehl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Strikes me as true, and as always when claiming something is obvious, it begs the question "how come you didn't think of it then?"

      Also, what about cases where the whole problem is someone else DID think of it? Or lots of someone elses thought of it?

      If you patent something that 10 other people independently start doing, doesn't that kind of demonstrate that it was pretty obvious?

    18. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      Agree 100% with your post.

      No test is going to make everyone happy. The current obviousness test is an attempt to avoid the "duh" type of hindsight obviousness (every inventino looks obvious in hindsight) while protecting against "real" obviousness (where all of the pieces were clearly known to those in the art, just nobody had yet bothered to write an article on or patent the combination). No matter where you draw the line, there will be problems. Maybe the test now results in too many obvious patents. But another test may end up not giving patent protections to truely deserving inventions. It's a tough situation.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    19. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by RajivSLK · · Score: 4, Funny

      Umm, I think raccoons ate your reading comprehension.

    20. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      That, more often than not, is not so difficult as you might imagine. Take, for instance, the patent suit against RIM by NTP. NTP contends that they have a valid set of patents, but when you look at how email was forwarded to early paging devices, their patent looks blatantly built upon quite obvious technological steps rather than something new and unobvious.

      Most, if not all inventions, are based on technological steps that look quite obvious in hindsight. The trick it to figure out what steps are obvious without hindsight -- that's the point of the obviousness test.

      RIM had ample opportunity to show that the emailing and computing world would have though that NTP's patents were obvious before the patents were filed -- in fact, RIM had more opportunities than most companies get to try and show the patents invalid. They failed, over and over. Maybe the test is bad, but under the current test, NTP's patents were NOT obvious.

      This, no matter what bumps might arise, will help to even out the patent trolls, and stop stupid patents.

      The eBay v. MercExchange ruling changing the CAFC rules for granting permanent injunctions will do more to curb the problem of patent trolls than will changing obviousness rules.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    21. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed, the test of obviousness should be whether someone reasonably skilled at the art would have arrived at a similar solution given the same problem. If the answer is "yes", it is obvious EVEN IF THE PROBLEM ITSELF WAS NOT OBVIOUS OR COMMON. Of course, by this standard, 99% of patents should not be valid. 99% of patents should not be valid.

      As for the question of why someone else didn't think of it first, I can't count how many patented designs I've seen and said "I can't believe they got a patent on that. I had that idea [n] years ago, but A. didn't have any financing to develop it, B. felt that the technology hadn't quite matured to the point that it was practical/usable, or C. didn't think there was a big enough market for it. Half the time, I've had somebody suggest the idea TO ME out of the blue, then said "hey, I thought of pretty much the same thing [n] years ago", THEN two or three years later, found out somebody turned it into a product and patented it.

      Case in point: a music stand with an LCD panel. The reasons I didn't move forward with that were A. no money, B. no time, C. I thought it would be better to wait until digital paper became more readily available because LCDs were non-optimal for the task, and D. I didn't think I could start a company to manufacture such a product and sell enough to make it worth quitting a job that actually pays me money. It was suggested to me by someone out of the blue in 2001 or 2002. I'd thought of the idea in about 1999. It was obvious then, and even more obvious now, in 2006 when somebody finally built such a product, but I'd be surprised if they didn't have at least one or two patents on that breathtakingly obvious idea.

      What they don't have (AFAIK) are the UI ideas I came up with for making it better... which might still be obvious... but... basically use an FFT to try to guess (even in the face of polyphony it should work well enough unless it's some weird 20th century piece with nothing more than a bunch of octave skips on a single tone or something) where you are in the piece and automatically turn pages. Okay, that's been done for solo instruments, but AFAIK, not for piano. Oh, yeah. I want this in a PIANO music rack. Music stands are cute, but a piano music rack would rock.

      Anyway, back to what's cool about my version.... As an option, instead of turning the page, if so desired, the pages would slowly slide so that two pages are on screen at once with a third moving on and a fourth moving off. That way, you never lose track of where you are because the page is always almost exactly where it was before you looked up.

      Another idea was to make this be wirelessly programmable via 802.11 (I'd probably pick Bluetooth if I were designing it now). Either that or cable it up with a FireWire cable so that a single cable provides power and data. Again, you'd need digital paper for that to be practical....

      $10 says that somebody will design one with most or all of these features within five years and will successfully get a patent based on the idea. When it happens, feel free to use this post as proof that the ideas are all obvious (unless I create it, of course...).

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    22. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by eric76 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, it is a somewhat ambiguous sentence:

      'It looks to me at about the same level as I have a sensor on my garage door at the lower hinge ... and the raccoons are eating it. So I think of the brainstorm of putting it on the upper hinge.'"

      So you can interpret it to mean that the raccoons are eating the sensor. You can interpret it to mean that the raccoons are eating the lower hinge. Or you can even interpret that to mean that the raccoons are eating the garage door.

      Since it is ambiguous, we can interpret it as we wish. I choose to interpret "it" as referring to the hinge. The sensor attracks them to the hinge. Move the sensor to the top hinge and the raccoons will have more trouble reaching the hinge.

    23. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by mikael · · Score: 0

      For software patents, surely it is possible for an API developer to state whether or not third parties can apply for patent using their technology, by using the licensing terms?

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    24. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Macadamizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Indeed, the test of obviousness should be whether someone reasonably skilled at the art would have arrived at a similar solution given the same problem. If the answer is "yes", it is obvious EVEN IF THE PROBLEM ITSELF WAS NOT OBVIOUS OR COMMON. Of course, by this standard, 99% of patents should not be valid. 99% of patents should not be valid.

      Just curious, why do you believe 99% of of patents should not be valid?

      How do you propose to perform your test? If others "skilled in the art" already know that there is a solution, then you are injecting hindsight into the equation, and EVERYTHING is obvious once you have hindsight.

      As for the question of why someone else didn't think of it first, I can't count how many patented designs I've seen and said "I can't believe they got a patent on that. I had that idea [n] years ago, but A. didn't have any financing to develop it, B. felt that the technology hadn't quite matured to the point that it was practical/usable, or C. didn't think there was a big enough market for it. Half the time, I've had somebody suggest the idea TO ME out of the blue, then said "hey, I thought of pretty much the same thing [n] years ago", THEN two or three years later, found out somebody turned it into a product and patented it.

      The purpose of patents, as is oft repeated, is to advance the useful arts (whether it does a good job or not is not really the point here, though!). A patent, for better or worse, at least makes public the invention, so others can see it, benefit from it, and build upon it -- maybe not immediately, but eventually. If you don't bother to tell anyone about your inventions, or don't bother to publish papers or put up a webpage or whatever, then the public is not benefiting from your invention, so you are not entitled to a patent (under current law). Someone else who comes up with the idea, dilligently works to develop it, and then gives the knowledge up to the public IS entitled to a patent.

      But just because you claim to have thought of something first doesn't make another's invention obvious. How do you prove that you came up with it first? Is the patent office or the courts just supposed to take your word for it?

      If you really want to keep others from patenting something you invented "first," put up a webpage, publish a paper, let the world know about your "obvious" invention -- that's how you can do this. Coming back 10 years later when someone else is successful and sitting back and complaining that it was "obvious" because you invented it "first" doesn't do any good at all.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    25. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who says no one thought of it first? There could have been thousands of people who thought of the idea but didn't have the financial resources or means to patent it. Or the thousands who thought of the idea but didn't think the idea was big enough to patent, or not new enough, or not important enough. Or the people who thought of the idea but weren't greedy enough to try and make money off of it.

      There definately is a class of people though whose first and foremost instinct at every idea is to patent it. These people probably assume the rest of the world thinks the same way, and thus any idea that isn't being patented must not have been thought of yet.

    26. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by vanyel · · Score: 1

      as always when claiming something is obvious, it begs the question "how come you didn't think of it then?"

      "because I wasn't trying to solve that problem"

      I think the best course of action is ask "what is the problem this solves", then ask people "knowledgeable in the field" (but unfamiliar with the product in question) ways to solve that problem. If any of them come up with the product's solution, then it's obvious.

    27. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not funny. It's a shameful way to refer to Justice Thomas.

    28. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1
      Maybe the test is bad, but under the current test, NTP's patents were NOT obvious.

      Nevertheless, the fact remains that they ARE obvious. (Anyone who thinks otherwise must have an IQ in the lowest quartile.) Therefore, the current test is rubbish.

    29. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by merphant · · Score: 1

      Actually I'm not sure that the analogy is so good; the whole point of having the sensor on the garage door is so that if something is blocking the door it will not shut. Having the sensor at the top means that things smaller than eight feet or so (like people, pets, cars, or most other things you might store in a garage) will not trip the sensor, and get hit by the door. So putting the sensor at the top is pretty useless; you might at well not have a sensor at all.

    30. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      Nevertheless, the fact remains that they ARE obvious. (Anyone who thinks otherwise must have an IQ in the lowest quartile.) Therefore, the current test is rubbish.

      To whom? Just saying so doesn't make it so. If you have evidence showing that the NTP patents are really obvious, then maybe you should have tried to get hired on as a consultant to RIM...

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    31. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by stevesliva · · Score: 1
      Strikes me as true, and as always when claiming something is obvious, it begs the question "how come you didn't think of it then?"
      I loved the discussion of how you claim that something is NOT obvious... new sig, as of yesterday. Certainly you can argue in circles about hindsightful obviousness. i.e. "Prove it is obvious! No, you prove that it's not! If no one has invented it already, then how can it be obvious? Yes, but it's the problem that is new, not the solution!" etc etc.
      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
    32. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by chefmonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm way too familiar with patents, and my experience is that the vast, vast majority -- I'm talking two to three sigmas here -- are issued not because someone thought up a novel solution to a problem, but because someone thought up a stunningly obvious solution to a newly emerging problem.

      It's too late for those patents that have made it out of the gate already, but I have long held that there should be a small pool of engineers -- you could probably even find people do do it on a non-paid volunteer basis -- who were involved in the patent process in a very specific, blinded fashion. The way it would work is: as part of the review process, the patent reviewer would state the problem the patent was trying to solve as an unsolved problem. This problem would then be sent to one or more of these engineers. The engineers would consider the problem, and have a short period of time to submit one or more potential solutions that solve the problem. If any of the potential solutions substantially replicates the claims of the patent under review, it would be rejected as obvious.

      Sadly, this makes *way* too much sense, so I doubt it would ever be seriously considered by the USPTO.

    33. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1
      Saying they aren't obvious doesn't make it so. Are you really claiming to be so stupid as to say that if someone showed you a wireless computer and asked you what it might be used for, you wouldn't think of e-mail?

      Consulting for RIM in their patent case would be useless, since the current tests used by the court system have no basis in reality.

    34. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 1
      And I think that a swing too far in the opposite direction would be just as harmful as the (current) swing in the direction of extreme patentism (hah, I just made up a word).

      I doubt it. I wonder how many research dollars are spent chasing "easy in hindsight" ideas that would fail to be discovered if patents wouldn't cover them. I suspect that most of the research money that is spent with the expectation of future patent revenue goes toward chasing ideas that are too complicated to look easy even in retrospect--stuff involving fancy math, chemistry, biology, physics, etc. Surely, even with no patent system, Amazon would still spend just as much money trying to make their site as usable as possible, and one-click ordering would still have been "invented". The drive to achieve a temporary advantage over your competition is probably a better incentive than our broken and arbitrary patent system.

    35. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by stevesliva · · Score: 1
      I'm way too familiar with patents, and my experience is that the vast, vast majority -- I'm talking two to three sigmas here -- are issued not because someone thought up a novel solution to a problem, but because someone thought up a stunningly obvious solution to a newly emerging problem.
      In my reply immediately preceding yours I was thinking along the same lines. If the patent application for a solution to a new problem is comprised of claims that disclose no newly invented method or concept, but simply rehash pre-existing concepts tailored to a new problem, it's probably obvious. But if the patent for the solution sticks to a simple list of specific claims, it may or may not be obvious. But new claims or not, how do you determine whether you are just the first to an obvious solution?

      Even if you're the first, what if only *some* teams come up with it? Is that obvious? A solution that 99% of qualified engineers would create is likely obvious, but what about a solution that only 1% of qualified engineers would create? Where is the threshold in between?
      --
      Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
    36. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2, Insightful
      How do you propose to perform your test? If others "skilled in the art" already know that there is a solution, then you are injecting hindsight into the equation, and EVERYTHING is obvious once you have hindsight.
      The test is not as difficult as you seem to think. Stating that "everything is obvious in hindsight" is a largely meaningless handwave that tars all subjects with one brush, as both the obvious AND non-obvious fit the description. In these cases, hindsight actually helps. For example, the Post-It note seems obvious, yet people went around scotch taping, paper clipping, or pinning slips of paper to things for decades beforehand. Clearly not obvious, otherwise there'd have been an earlier example. On the other hand, you have patents on portable electronic devices for sending and receiving email--- that's bloody fucking obvious, and not just in hindsight. Portable email was not a solution waiting for an insightful genius to discover it, but a solution waiting for technological progress to make it feasible.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    37. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Surt · · Score: 1

      "how come you didn't think of it then?"

      I think this case is about companies who did think of it. They weren't ripping off anybodies patent. They reinvented the same thing, and tripped over the patent.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    38. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      Saying they aren't obvious doesn't make it so. Are you really claiming to be so stupid as to say that if someone showed you a wireless computer and asked you what it might be used for, you wouldn't think of e-mail?

      If you asked me today, of course I would. But in 1991, when the first of the NTP patents was filed, I don't know.

      It doesn't matter if the NTP patents are obvious now -- the key is whether or not they were obvious when they were filed, in this case, back in 1991.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    39. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by alexjohnc3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What you said is misleading. Hurting the fewest number of people as possible isn't necessarily fairness. If ten people are using my ideas that I've patented (assuming the patents aren't "obvious" ones) in their products and I want compensation for this, then it's fair for me to get this compensation even if more than one person gets hurt, right?

    40. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by balthan · · Score: 1

      And I think that a swing too far in the opposite direction would be just as harmful as the (current) swing in the direction of extreme patentism (hah, I just made up a word).

      Would there really be much of a downside if patents dissapeared altogether? I'm sure we would probably lose some obscure and rarely used devices that are never licensed anyway, but companies could then focus on using technologies that fit their needs, rather than just what they can license. I'm not convinced that there would be a large hit to the development of new technologies.

    41. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Macadamizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      On the other hand, you have patents on portable electronic devices for sending and receiving email--- that's bloody fucking obvious, and not just in hindsight. Portable email was not a solution waiting for an insightful genius to discover it, but a solution waiting for technological progress to make it feasible.

      If this is your test for obviousness, then NOTHING is patentable, because everything is just "a solution waiting for technological progress to make it feasible." Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your position in this matter), our patent system doesn't just look at "ideas," it looks at the idea plus a "reduction to practice" -- in other words, the guy that says "I wish I could take my email with me" doesn't get a patent, but the guy that actually figures out HOW to do it does. We give patents based onthe invention of the "technological progress" that makes the solutions feasible.

      As noted in another post, the first NTP patent was filed in 1991 -- was a portable device for email "bloody fucking obvious" in 1991?

      (BTW, just for the sake of disclosure, I have no love for NTP, and actually wrote a brief in support of RIM at the CAFC, and think RIM got fucked -- but not because of NTP's patents being obvious, but for other reasons, specifically the extraterritorial application of U.S. patent laws.)

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    42. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Don't be so obtuse. Of course they were obvious in 1991. A more non-obvious innovation would be to find a use for a wireless computer that doesn't involve e-mail.

    43. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by topham · · Score: 3, Interesting


      A method of reliably transfering data using a protocol intended for a radio link should be patentable.

      Using said radio link to transfer email should not; it should be tied to the original e-mail patent, or not at all.

      A menuing system, like that on Apple's iPod should not be patentable; anyone designing a device with a screen the size of Apples has a significant chance to stumbling on the same design.

      The problem as I see it is 'obviousness' is being determined by people who aren't actually familiar with the process of design. Instead they assume that if they haven't read about it in research material it must therefor not be obvious.

      I wrote a program on the Commodore 64 which implemented Bresenham's line algorithm; I didn't even know about it, I did it based on what I learned in mathematics in grade 5. I don't think I'm brilliant, hence, I don't think software and algorithm should generally be patentable.

    44. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      EVERYTHING is obvious once you have hindsight

                But there's still an important difference between "obvious" and "obvious in retrospect". In both cases, an expert will respond "Oh, of course" upon hearing the solution, but only in the second (i.e., deservedly patentable) case will said expert go on to exclaim "Why didn't I think of that?"

    45. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by shawb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Honestly, guessing what solutions to a problem exist wouldn't be a good use of engineers. It WOULD be a good use of engineering students, though. This exact task would make an extremely appropriate internship. The difficult part would be in phrasing the problem such that it isn't too vague, yet it isn't steering the students directly towards the patent.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    46. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by chefmonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's why I proposed a short period of time: if even 0.1% of the engineers out there can immediately think of the same solution, then it's obvious for the purposes of the patent system.

      Patents theoretically promote innovation by encouraging people and companies to invest significant resources into solving problems. At 0.1% of the engineering population, you're pretty much guaranteed that, once the problem comes to light, the fact that tens of thousands of people would be able to solve the problem means that patenting the idea doesn't serve the common good: because, statistically speaking, several companies will have employees all equally capable of solving the problem, several companies will. Allowing patents to be issued for those kind of "inventions" doesn't promote anything useful at all.

    47. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Well, if a US Supreme Court Judge finds it obvious after a relatively short time then that's obvious ;).

      There aren't that many US Supreme Court judges available for patent testing, but I figure we can workaround that problem.

      --
    48. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Copid · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If this is your test for obviousness, then NOTHING is patentable, because everything is just "a solution waiting for technological progress to make it feasible." Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on your position in this matter), our patent system doesn't just look at "ideas," it looks at the idea plus a "reduction to practice" -- in other words, the guy that says "I wish I could take my email with me" doesn't get a patent, but the guy that actually figures out HOW to do it does. We give patents based onthe invention of the "technological progress" that makes the solutions feasible.
      If everybody has the same obvious idea and you're the first one to figure out how to implement it, you should get a patent. On the implementation. Example: Everybody wants a portable device that can receive email. No portable network hardware is available. Portable network hardware becomes available from a third party and you're the first slob to crank out an email device with the network hardware in it. Should you get a patent on how you hooked together the parts? Maybe, if it's sufficiently clever. Should you be able to patent the general idea that everybody has been chomping at the bit to implement? I certainly don't think so.
      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
    49. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by irtza · · Score: 1

      I have a patent on patentism, so I believe you need to pay up...

      --
      When all else fails, try.
    50. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I believe the goal is to set a rule that hurts as few as possible, and with the same number of people on both sides of the issue. The goal of any judicial system isn't perfection, just fairness.


      Your fingers typeth, but your brain doesn't understandeth. Having the same number of people on both sides actually MAXIMIZES the the number of people hurt (C.f. Recent US elections). If the issue is split 50:50, it's a good sign that nobody is right and you need to find something more people can agree on.
    51. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by shaitand · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Just curious, why do you believe 99% of of patents should not be valid?

      How do you propose to perform your test? If others "skilled in the art" already know that there is a solution, then you are injecting hindsight into the equation, and EVERYTHING is obvious once you have hindsight."

      99% is a made up number that any reasonably thinking individual can assume means "nearly every patent" when used in that context. However, you have established where he got the idea with the second paragraph. I trust that nobody is foolish enough to think that there are no exceptions where something is NOT obvious in hindsight, so you yourself surely must have meant 'almost everything'.

      If something is obvious in hindsight then it is just a progressive step built upon the existing state of invention. Progressive steps are not truely innovative things that are worthy of patents. The reason is that sooner or later someone else would have made that step. Granting patents on things that would be discovered and become available to the industry without patents hinders forward progress rather than helping.

      The standard for a patent should not be whether or not effort went into coming up with a solution. The standard for a patent should be whether or not any other human being would have ever come up with that solution withen the length of the patent. Patents are a government granted monopoly and should not be granted on a daily basis!

      There are probably only a couple dozen patents that should have been granted this century.

    52. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Amouth · · Score: 1

      you hit it dead on.. they should be able to patent their implmentation of an idea.. but not the idea it's self.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    53. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Someone else who comes up with the idea, dilligently works to develop it, and then gives the knowledge up to the public IS entitled to a patent.

      No, because somebody can patent the idea before that, even if they haven't managed to get it to work. Then when some poor sod does manage to do that, they can't produce the product, and in some cases all working copies get transfered to the patent owner. The patent owner owns the idea lock stock and barrel until the patent runs out.

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
    54. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem that I can see is that if you eliminated patents altogether, it might lead companies to be very, very aggressive about preventing the disclosure of trade secrets. Working for an electronics firm would be like joining the Manhattan Project, and every device you bought would have all of its circuit boards potted in epoxy, mixed with iron filings to mess up X-rays and PET scanners. They'd probably also self-destruct if you opened the case. Industrial espionage would be de rigeur.

      In short, a world without patents could be a pretty ugly place. I could easily see a future where ideas were locked up for longer, and less accessible to the public at large, due to trade secrets and the precautions taken to protect them, than under a sane patent system.

      That said, the current system is hardly sane. First, the terms are far too long. Right now, patents for some of the earliest computer developments are just expiring; hey, anyone want to implement the ISA bus? You can go right ahead now! That doesn't do anyone a whole lot of good. Patent terms need to be made more flexible depending on the field. Drug patents are probably good at 10+ years, because of the large sums of money and long regulatory approval processes required before they can turn a profit (although in a perfect world, we'd streamline those processes too). Patents on electronic devices probably shouldn't be any longer than 5 years at the outside. Algorithms and software shouldn't be patentable, except in narrowly defined circumstances where they form part of a patented device, but even then are not protected independently.

      So in short, there are valid reasons for the existence of the patent system. It's better to have some public control in the marketplace of ideas; if you didn't have a patent system, it wouldn't just become this free and open love-fest, you'd just be handing over control of the whole system to the corporations themselves.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    55. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "As noted in another post, the first NTP patent was filed in 1991 -- was a portable device for email "bloody fucking obvious" in 1991?"

      The turing machine was a non-obvious advance. Digital Electronics were a non-obvious advance. A portable turning machine was an obvious advance. There is no reason that patents should be granted on a regular basis instead of being reserved for the truely innovative. Especially since the idea that patents advance progress is still a question of debate. Without patents innovation would occur because people desire the products of the innovation and where there is a demand there is money to be made. The flip side patents is sharing the 'secret' with the public, this may have been an issue when patents were first created (not that long ago) but I think you will agree that nothing patented in the last 10 years was actually unique enough that it couldn't be reverse engineered long before the patent expires.

    56. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      A portable email device is "bloody fucking obvious" the minute you live in a world where both email and small wireless devices are common. What are you going to do next? Get a patent on using parallel sorting algorithms on desktop workstations? Is it "not obvious" now because systems with 4 or 8 CPUs in them aren't common? Will a programmer in 2011 be wrong when he says that it's utterly obvious because he has the benefit of hindsight knowing that desktop machines generally have 4+ processors?

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    57. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's actually a really good criteria for patents: If you can duplicate the item without reading the patent, the patent isn't benefiting society. The other important rule would be: If you can't duplicate the item by reading the patent, the patent is fraudulent.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    58. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having (honestly) lived in the same house with two raccoons for a while, I promise you that raccoons can, and will, eat anything. Often, if you get on their bad side they'll eat it just to spite you. Fortunately, raccoons are also layabouts, and smart enough to reserve the right to climb under the covers of the waterbed on cold, wet, stormy nights by conspicuously refraining from eating things they know would make you (me) angry enough to get them pitched back out on to the porch.

      Unfortunately I've never had a garage -- let alone a garage door -- so it would be entirely unfair to speculate on the composition of Justice Breyer's garage door hinge sensor to make it so attractive to raccoons. Maybe the sensor just offends raccoon sensibilities?

      Now I live in the city, a reasonable distance from any significant raccoon population centers.

    59. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Splab · · Score: 1

      Putting the sticky stuff on paper is obvious, figureing out how to make it stick repeatedly is not obvious.

    60. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Dun+Malg · · Score: 3, Insightful
      If this is your test for obviousness, then NOTHING is patentable, because everything is just "a solution waiting for technological progress to make it feasible."
      Bullshit. What technology were Post-Its waiting for? Or better yet, the high pressure McCoy automatic oiler, which used tech no more advanced than the steam engines it served? Steam engine parts were oiled by hand with oil cans for 20 years before the automatic oiler was invented.
      As noted in another post, the first NTP patent was filed in 1991 -- was a portable device for email "bloody fucking obvious" in 1991?
      Jesus, if anything is bloody fucking obvious, it's the observation of "man, I wish it were possible to make one of these things that was portable." The list is unbelievably long: phones, video cameras, calculators, TVs, radios, DVD players, and yes, even networked computers running a mail reader! Just because it took time for large LCDs, low power CPUs, and high capacity batteries make it possible to finally run that email app on a goddamn 2-way pager does not make it non-obvious before then.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    61. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Pseudonym · · Score: 1
      If you really want to keep others from patenting something you invented "first," put up a webpage, publish a paper, let the world know about your "obvious" invention -- that's how you can do this.

      The trouble there is that time is money, and I get paid to create new things. If I wrote down every time I've solved a problem using the obvious solution, I wouldn't get any real work done.

      This, incidentally, cuts to the heart of the problem: Whichever way you cut it, the patent system, as it is, is a barrier to innovation in some industries.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    62. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Dun+Malg · · Score: 4, Informative
      Putting the sticky stuff on paper is obvious, figureing out how to make it stick repeatedly is not obvious.
      The adhesive used on Post-Its was invented in 1968. After an initial attempt to use it to create a "sticky bulletin board" (a failure), it was set aside until Arthur Fry came up with the idea of creating sticky, reusable bookmarks in 1974. Post-Its weren't waiting for the glue. They were waiting for Arthur Fry.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    63. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure that fairness has anything to do with the motives behind patent law. The incentive to a society that protects invention [in this case, via patent law] is that the society benefits from more inventions, sooner.

    64. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except he doesn't say what sort of sensor it is, surely if it is on the hinge, it would be a position sensor for the doors to see if they are open or closed, for a sideways opening door, there is no reason you would need a sensor to sense for the actual kids, you just need a clutch that releases if any resistance is met, if a kid gets in the way, the clutch would release, and the door would stop shutting, the sensor on the hinge would sense this and stop the motor.

    65. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2, Funny
      Nevertheless, the fact remains that they ARE obvious... Therefore, the current test is rubbish.

      To whom? Just saying so doesn't make it so.
      Christ in a sidecar. If I had a nickel for every time I wished I could access my email account from somewhere other than the computer lab back in the mid 80's, I'd have enough money to pay a goon to knock some sense into your head. Mere portability of an existing system is not a novel fucking innovation, you dumbshit.

      If you have evidence showing that the NTP patents are really obvious, then maybe you should have tried to get hired on as a consultant to RIM...
      You don't even understand the problem with the current system, do you. The problem RIM had was that the legal test to disprove novelty requires documentation (generally from a previous patent), and people don't waste time writing down and meticulously documenting the bloody obvious. This is why (as the GP poster said) the current test is rubbish.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    66. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by onemorechip · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      And all this time I thought they were waiting for Lisa Kudrow.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    67. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As noted in another post, the first NTP patent was filed in 1991 -- was a portable device for email "bloody fucking obvious" in 1991?

      I didn't even have non-portable email in 1991. So from that perspective, it was not at all obvious. On the other hand, it was also something for which a concrete implementation was not technologically feasible at the time.

      But the patent isn't on the idea of doing email wirelessly anyway. It's on what amounts to UUCP, except sending data to a wireless email reader instead of sending it by telephoning some other computer in another state. It's a patent on a design that in similar (but not identical) applications had been in common use since the 70s (at least). Indeed, the RIM patent gives new meaning to the word obvious once you dig beneath the superficial red herring question of whether wireless email was obvious in 1991....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    68. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      6 years from glue to practical product doesn't sound all too much to me.

    69. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      I think that a swing too far in the opposite direction would be just as harmful as the (current) swing in the direction of extreme patentism (hah, I just made up a word). I disagree. I think having no patents is much more preferable to extreme patent giving.
    70. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      This, no matter what bumps might arise, will help to even out the patent trolls, and stop stupid patents. Only if people who file the patent are fined along with those accepting the patent. Otherwise they'll just keep filing patents. Just as spammers keep sending spam mail. On the level of the businesses that file these ridiculous patents, the cost is as financially burdening as it is for an Indian spammer to send spam.
    71. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      The justices surely didn't give any insight into what the proper test for obviousness should be, they only said they didn't like the current test. They're waiting for someone to patent a new system and then they'll deem the patent invalid as it was obvious.
    72. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Or you can even interpret that to mean that the raccoons are eating the garage door. If so the judge is a fucking moron whose ruling should be overturned and re-judged. There is no way someone with two brain cells to rub together would think moving a sensor would fix the problem, if it was the door itself getting eaten.
    73. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Now if only you could get a president that was smarter then one.

    74. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      I think that patent applicants should be required to make a working model before the patent can be granted.

      It would solve a lot of the patent squatter problems...

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    75. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's the difference between a raccoon and a supreme court judge?

      Raccoons wash their food before they eat it!

    76. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by aim2future · · Score: 1

      If you really want to keep others from patenting something you invented "first," put up a webpage, publish a paper, let the world know about your "obvious" invention -- that's how you can do this. Coming back 10 years later when someone else is successful and sitting back and complaining that it was "obvious" because you invented it "first" doesn't do any good at all.

      I think you have completely missed the point about what means being obvious. An obvious idea is something you don't bother about publishing. You don't consider it worth the effort. I usually come up about 20 "obvious" ideas every day. If I would start publishing those in the way you suggest, then I wouldn't be able to do my work. I have however, one patent from the beginning of 90ies, a method I considered to be obvious (I just used my recent experience from neural networks and applied it to expert systems) but my boss then encouraged us to apply anyway, today I wouldn't have done so. I have applied for another patent though, that took me 14 years to find out how to deal with the problem, and how to finally make a business model of it. Of course this doesn't prove that it's not obvious for someone else, but due to the complexity of the solution I believe it is not.

      Anyway, if I would write up and publish my obvious ideas as you suggest I wouldn't have anything to live from, because it would take to much time. Of course this is tremendously serious problem in computer science as every software developer is also an inventor. I've studied many many software patents, (I had for instance used two for me obvious solutions in my master thesis work, to find out ten years later that these solutions were actually patented at that time...) and come to that inevitable conclusion that software patents do not work. So, regarding software patents obviousness is not a problem, the problem is that software methods can be patented at all.

    77. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by gnasher719 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      '' Strikes me as true, and as always when claiming something is obvious, it begs the question "how come you didn't think of it then?" ''

      Who says nobody has ever thought of it? I have a question: Have you ever thought of painting your shoes yellow? Probably not. On the other hand, if you went to a fancy dress party and needed yellow shoes to match your costume, then you would do exactly that. Are you saying that painting your shoes yellow could be patented because nobody thought of it before? That's nonsense. It is obvious, whether anyone thought of it, whether anyone wrote it down, or not.

    78. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      '' The problem that I can see is that if you eliminated patents altogether, it might lead companies to be very, very aggressive about preventing the disclosure of trade secrets. Working for an electronics firm would be like joining the Manhattan Project, and every device you bought would have all of its circuit boards potted in epoxy, mixed with iron filings to mess up X-rays and PET scanners. They'd probably also self-destruct if you opened the case. Industrial espionage would be de rigeur. ''

      Most things that could be protected by reasonable software patents are actually protected by copyright law. The only difference is, if I have a simple idea and spend six months implementing it, with patent laws you are not allowed to implement the same simple idea, with copyright law you have the right to spend six months as well implementing it, without copyright law you would have the right to steal it.

      In Germany, an additional protection is the law "against unfair competition". This used to protect software developers before it was clear that software has copyright (if I spend six months developing software before I sell it, and you just copy it and sell, then this is unfair competition). This would automatically protect inventions that took effort to develop (possibly just the effort of hiring someone really clever for $100,000 a year than someone much less clever for $40,000) from being ripped off.

    79. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Scarblac · · Score: 1

      If the description of the problem steers you directly towards the solution, isn't that a sign of being utterly obvious in itself?

      --
      I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
    80. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by old+man+moss · · Score: 1

      Yes. And in my experience the vast, vast majority of patent filings are the result of someone being told that group X has to generate 3 patents this year to meet the department's quota.

      To many, patents have become a way of demonstrating that you are "protecting your IP" ... even if you don't have any :-(

      Your pool of engineers are exactly what the patent examiners are supposed to be; are they not?

      --
      rt
    81. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Alsee · · Score: 1

      If I walked up to ten random people and said "When it rains, water floods the ditch where I keep my TV and ruins it, what should I do to keep the TV safe?" How many of them do you think will say "move it somewhere else!"

      That depends... did you mean ten random people on the street, or ten random people here on Slashdot?

      If you ask ten people on the street, OK, nine or ten will say to move the TV. If you ask on Slashdot, you'll get nine or ten different technobabble answers involving hydrophobic molecular coatings or somesuch.

      During the moment it took me to read and the thirteen words in your very next sentence, the one explaining your intent and "expected" answer, semi-concious background processes in my brain had already spawned approximately three different technical angles from which to try to protect the TV, and none of them involved moving it.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    82. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by James+McGuigan · · Score: 1
      How do you propose to perform your test? If others "skilled in the art" already know that there is a solution, then you are injecting hindsight into the equation, and EVERYTHING is obvious once you have hindsight."

      Take a small panel of "experts", give them the specifications of the problem that the patent is intended to solve, and let them brainstorm for upto a day on various methods of how to solve it.

      If they come up with the same solution as the patent within 5 minutes or even a day, then its patently obvious.

    83. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Shads · · Score: 1

      I'm all for:

      A) The sensor is patentable
      B) The automatic door opener should be patentable

      A change of location for the sensor shouldn't be patentable, a change of materials composing the door alone shouldn't be patentable, a change in size shouldn't be patentable, a change... you get the point.

      If you innovate I see no problem with rewarding it. However, most of the patents now are held A) To prevent someone else from getting a patent for the same thing and suing your ass off, or B) By patent holding companies who just go around and sue everyones ass off.

      Another good example is:

      Sending a message (E-Mail) over a network... should have been patentable AROUND the time it was created.
      Sending E-Mail over a wireless-network... that uses the same damn protocol as the network above... should never be patentable.
      Sending E-Mail over a wired-network... that uses the same damn protocol as the network above... should never be patentable.

      However... one of those patents was granted (Sending email over a wireless network.) Stupid... one of the other major problems with the patent process is the appeals... just keep appealing and eventually it'll be granted when a clue less examiner or one who doesn't know of prior work or doesn't care finally gets it.

      It's a screwed up system.

      Patents should last for significantly less time too... the current duration is nuts its stifles innovation.

      --
      Shadus
    84. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by mpe · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, you have patents on portable electronic devices for sending and receiving email--- that's bloody fucking obvious, and not just in hindsight. Portable email was not a solution waiting for an insightful genius to discover it, but a solution waiting for technological progress to make it feasible.

      You probably couldn't even reasonably try and patent "txtspeak". Because it's a consequence of the character limit of SMS that users would come up with method of encoding longer messages.

    85. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by jhdevos · · Score: 1
      The purpose of patents, as is oft repeated, is to advance the useful arts (whether it does a good job or not is not really the point here, though!). A patent, for better or worse, at least makes public the invention, so others can see it, benefit from it, and build upon it -- maybe not immediately, but eventually. If you don't bother to tell anyone about your inventions, or don't bother to publish papers or put up a webpage or whatever, then the public is not benefiting from your invention, so you are not entitled to a patent (under current law). Someone else who comes up with the idea, dilligently works to develop it, and then gives the knowledge up to the public IS entitled to a patent.
      The criterium, therefore should be simple. An idea should be patentable only if it is more beneficial to society if it is published, but locked away for othes to use, for the entire period the patent is valid, than it would be if the idea was not published at all, so other had to think of it for themselves.

      That means that it should be so non-obvious that the combined resources of the scientific and other open communities would not be able to think of the same idea, when presented with the same problem, for 20 years (or some other number, depending in which country you live).

      I don't think many patents pass this criterium.

      Jan

    86. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by mpe · · Score: 1

      As noted in another post, the first NTP patent was filed in 1991 -- was a portable device for email "bloody fucking obvious" in 1991?

      A portable device for would have been an obviously useful idea in 1973, when email (as we know it now) was invented. In the same way that portable telephones were an obviously useful idea, even though one one shown in the Hanna Barbara cartoon "Inch High Private Eye" would have been virtually impossible to make with the technology of the day.
      Anyway ACARS would probably qualify as "portable email", even if it was built into a vehicle. If "email" were defined to just mean text sent by electronic means then telex and the cypher machines used in WWII would certainly qualify. Enigma machines were certainly man portable.

    87. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1

      How do you propose to perform your test? If others "skilled in the art" already know that there is a solution, then you are injecting hindsight into the equation, and EVERYTHING is obvious once you have hindsight.

      If just knowing there is a solution makes the solution obvious, it's likely that granting a patent isn't in the public interest.

      Eivind.

      --
      Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
    88. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by ydrol · · Score: 1

      The standard for a patent should not be whether or not effort went into coming up with a solution. The standard for a patent should be whether or not any other human being would have ever come up with that solution withen the length of the patent. Patents are a government granted monopoly and should not be granted on a daily basis!


      It is interesting to note, a lot of inventions in the past were often invented in parallel by scientists working independently often in different countries using the same 'body of knowledge' and the patent bit, has literally been a 'first to the post' race. In essense progress has mostly been taking the next obvious step, (obvious to someone slaving away in that particular field of expertise)
    89. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Weedlekin · · Score: 1

      "the first NTP patent was filed in 1991 -- was a portable device for email "bloody fucking obvious" in 1991?"

      Yes, because it was a component of the DynaBook portable tablet concept computer being developed at Xerox PARC during the 1960s and 1970s. They even had working prototypes that used wireless networks, so this was not only obvious, but something that had already been done, written about, and published in various journals.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    90. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by mpe · · Score: 1

      A portable email device is "bloody fucking obvious" the minute you live in a world where both email and small wireless devices are common.

      Even when such devices wern't common it was obvious to quite a few people that a "walkie-talkie" which could work as a telphone was a good idea. When it comes to electrical telecommunications sending text happened before sending voice. When radio was invented it was obvious that any kind of communication which could be sent over wires could be sent "wireless".

      Someone like H G Wells could have come up with the idea of what we would now call a "portable email device" a century ago. He'd have called it something else and there is no way he could possibly have built one (or more usefully two).

    91. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by mpe · · Score: 1

      I think you have completely missed the point about what means being obvious. An obvious idea is something you don't bother about publishing. You don't consider it worth the effort. I usually come up about 20 "obvious" ideas every day. If I would start publishing those in the way you suggest, then I wouldn't be able to do my work

      If the ideas in question were obvious to people working in the same field publishing them could easily make you look like a fool.

    92. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      I didn't even have non-portable email in 1991. So from that perspective, it was not at all obvious. On the other hand, it was also something for which a concrete implementation was not technologically feasible at the time.

      Unavailable at the time is really not the same as non-obvious. The second part of your statement esplains why it was not available quite well.

      But the patent isn't on the idea of doing email wirelessly anyway. It's on what amounts to UUCP, except sending data to a wireless email reader instead of sending it by telephoning some other computer in another state. It's a patent on a design that in similar (but not identical) applications had been in common use since the 70s (at least). Indeed, the RIM patent gives new meaning to the word obvious once you dig beneath the superficial red herring question of whether wireless email was obvious in 1991....

      It did not have to be identical anyway because unlike what the courts seem to have thought so far, prior art and obviousness are at times related, but are not the same thing, and one does not require the other at all.

      The problem is the 'obviousness' standard as it is currently being used, wich comes down to "A combination of prior art with a prior documented motivation to combine the prior art".

      Obviously that is rubbish, prior art is covered seperately in the requirements for a patent, and not treating obviousness as something differet then what is currently the norm is showing some very serious disrespect for those who wrote current patent law. The people who wrote it were really not as stupid as to mention the same requirement twice.

    93. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      How do you propose to perform your test? If others "skilled in the art" already know that there is a solution, then you are injecting hindsight into the equation, and EVERYTHING is obvious once you have hindsight.

      You are wrong first of all because knowing that a solution exists does not mean knowing what the solution is. Patents are about how you solve it, and not merely a statement that you solved it.

      Actual knowledge of the workings of the solution would introduce the problem you mention of course.

      The purpose of patents, as is oft repeated, is to advance the useful arts (whether it does a good job or not is not really the point here, though!).

      Wether it does a good job might not be the point, but is extremely relevant for the discussion. If patents do an extremely good job then paying a higher price for them by society (in the form of more patents being granted) may well be acceptable. If patents do an extremely bad job then we can skip the entire discussion and do away with them.

      A patent, for better or worse, at least makes public the invention, so others can see it, benefit from it, and build upon it -- maybe not immediately, but eventually.

      With the current rate of technological development, there is a good chance that the invention will be irrelevant way before the patent expires.

      If you don't bother to tell anyone about your inventions, or don't bother to publish papers or put up a webpage or whatever, then the public is not benefiting from your invention,

      If they can buy the resulting product they may very well benefit from it.

      so you are not entitled to a patent (under current law). Someone else who comes up with the idea, dilligently works to develop it, and then gives the knowledge up to the public IS entitled to a patent.

      All nice and well, but your product wont sell without making it known, and what is more, in many cases selling your product gives others a relativelz easy way to figure out how your invention works

    94. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by ThosLives · · Score: 1

      This is close to my test, but I think mine is more strict:

      Give the panel of appropriate artisians the problem *and* the patent, and see if the panel can explain why the patent was made that way in no more than, say, 4 hours. If after seeing the solution and the panel cannot clearly state the way to arrive at the solution is not obvious. If, however, they can fully explain how you would take existing technology to get the proposed implementation, it's obvious and not patentable. In my mind, it's only if the combination provides *new* functionality, not *combined* functionality, that makes something less obvious; but that specific combination also has to be non-obvious.

      Hypothetical examples: Obvious: combining, say, a long pole with a hedge clipper so you can clip high branches is an obvious combination: you have a pole to reach things, a clipper to clip things, combine them to clip things that are hard to reach! Obvious: Using a computer to automate any task that was previously not automated. Unobvious: Combining gears and levers to perform some mechanical task in a way not suggested by gears and levers; for instance, a new transmission that is smoother / more efficient.

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    95. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Steve1952 · · Score: 1
      Wait, I know what the Supreme Court should do!

      MPEP 706.02(j): To establish a prima facie case of obviousness, three basic criteria must be met. First, there must be some suggestion or motivation, either in the references themselves or in the knowledge generally available to one of ordinary skill in the art, to modify the reference or to combine teachings. Second, there must be a reasonable expectation of success. Third, the prior art reference (or references when combined) must teach or suggest all the claim limitations. Fourth: if it involves raccoons chewing on things, it's obvious.

    96. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by virtual_mps · · Score: 1
      The purpose of patents, as is oft repeated, is to advance the useful arts (whether it does a good job or not is not really the point here, though!). A patent, for better or worse, at least makes public the invention, so others can see it, benefit from it, and build upon it -- maybe not immediately, but eventually.

      In theory. In practice, there are so many junk patents that no reasonable person can read, understand and learn from the body of patents--so the publication has no practical benefit.
    97. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by tinkerghost · · Score: 1
      A portable email device is "bloody fucking obvious" the minute you live in a world where both email and small wireless devices are common.
      A portable email device that is pushed email instead of requests email is "bloody fucking obvious" when you have text pager technology (SMS) to push messages to a remote device. Making that message be an Email is not a stroke of genius. The fact that HAM radio operators were doing this for base stations since the early 80's, makes it even more obvious. This is stacking one on top of the other with no innovation - which was determined to be obvious (attaching a radiant heater to an asphault spreader is not an idea worthy of a patent).
      Had NTP patented a device, and not the concept, this would be a non issue. A portable device capable of 2 way email contact, is worthy of a patent. The concept is not.
    98. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1
      How do you propose to perform your test? If others "skilled in the art" already know that there is a solution, then you are injecting hindsight into the equation, and EVERYTHING is obvious once you have hindsight.

      Here's how I'd propose it, get a small group of practitioners skilled in the art, and pose the problem to them. Give them a maximum of 60m to brainstorm. If the proposed patent pops out, it's obvious. (Note, obvious ideas will probably take less than 5m to pop out, and will need a "group" of 1)

      Would that work for you? There are truly patentable ideas out there, but I think I'll have to go with most that software by and large is not, and should not be, patentable. As an side, genes should not be patentable either. Software by and large takes time to develop. By the time someone has a product and ships/announces it, they have an advantage over everyone else because of the dev time it takes for them to develop it.
      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    99. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "It is interesting to note, a lot of inventions in the past were often invented in parallel by scientists working independently often in different countries using the same 'body of knowledge' and the patent bit, has literally been a 'first to the post' race. In essence progress has mostly been taking the next obvious step, (obvious to someone slaving away in that particular field of expertise)"

      My point exactly. When the sort of race you mentioned occurs then a patent is detrimental and not beneficial. People seem to lose sight of the purpose for patents. Since patents have been around for our entire lives and are given so carelessly people have begun to think they are to protect some imagined right of the inventor. Patents are not for the inventor, they are to extract the secrets of the inventor and bring them into the public light. If not granting the patent brings about this result sooner than granting it, then the patent should not be granted.

    100. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      while protecting against "real" obviousness (where all of the pieces were clearly known to those in the art, just nobody had yet bothered to write an article on or patent the combination).

      Te problem is that this is not what 'real' obviousness is, rather, this is called prior art, which is handled seperatelz in patent requirements.

      Obvious is a solution that a person skilled in the art would likely come up with when confornted with the problem, regardless of if that solution was known beforehand.

      (amd yes, I am aware that that is not how it is treated right now, but there is some obvious duplication of requirements going on as a result, and really, those who wrote current patent law at the time were smart enough to not put duplicates of the same requirement in there, so it is extremely unlikely that the current obvious test is what was intended by patent law)

    101. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by tinkerghost · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Obviously that is rubbish, prior art is covered seperately in the requirements for a patent, and not treating obviousness as something differet then what is currently the norm is showing some very serious disrespect for those who wrote current patent law. The people who wrote it were really not as stupid as to mention the same requirement twice.

      The patent law says that it is not patentable if someone reasonably skilled in the art, would develop the same device given the same motivation. Since the judges who have to rule on these things are not "reasonably skilled in the art" for which they have to make determinations, they developed the test of "teach, suggest, motivation". The law as written is designed to make sure that obvious solutions to problems don't get patented. The "teach, suggest, motivation" test was developed as a practical way to implement that. The problem is that it doesn't. It lowers the bar to the level of a clueless moron, looking at the whole of the prior art.

      I agree that the motivation portion of the test is valid. If there has been a problem, with repeated failed attempts at a solution, over the course of years, then the solution is not obvious, no matter how simple it is in practice. (Encasing batteries in a metal housing to prevent leakage is the example given in the transcript - a 20 year problem with a stupidly simple solution.)

      The "teach, suggest" part of the test is just a restatement of prior art. "If the body of prior art teaches or suggests a solution, it is obvious, otherwise it is not." Transferring the "genre, artist, album, song" hierachy menus from a computer's jukebox program, to an MP3 player that has a graphical display fails this test for anyone reasonably skilled in the art of interface design, and yet the patent was granted to MS.

      How do you fix it so that solutions that are "obvious to someone reasonably skilled in the art" can be shown to be obvious to people not skilled in the art? I have no ideas. I just know the current method doesn't work.

    102. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whether it does a good job or not is not really the point here, though

      Actually, it kind of is. The point of all these laws and regulations is to help us act in a way that benefits all of us. Whether it does a good job is exactly the point.

    103. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would the sensor attract the racoons? If they're eating the lower hinge, why would moving the sensor help? They're obviously eating the sensor, not the hinge.

    104. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by tinkerghost · · Score: 1
      However... one of those patents was granted (Sending email over a wireless network.) Stupid...
      Technically the patent is on pushing the email instead of requesting the email.
      • Bob turns off his PEM (Portable Email Machine)
      • Bob turns on his PEM.
      • PEM registers with network.
      • Server sends PEM missed Emails
      That's what the patent is about, the automated sending of the email when the PEM registers with the network.
      The stupid thing is that prior to this being patented, text pagers did:
      • Bob turns off his Pager
      • Bob turns on his Pager.
      • Pager registers with network.
      • Server sends Pager missed messages.
      By specifying email instead of more generic text messages, NTP got a patent on an already implemented idea.
    105. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by wakim1618 · · Score: 1

      One obvious solution to the patents conumdrum is to have two types of patents - the patently obvious is eligible for 24 months of protection so you do get a pat on the back for 'innovation' and limits the harm of an underfunded patent office. Or you can apply for the much harder to get patent which affords you all the long-lasting protection you get today under the current system.

    106. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      Given that the patent office said they were going to revoke the patents, I would say the patent office decided they were obvious.
      The NTP patent was obvious because it took traditional SMS text messaging from a standard text pager, and routed email through the text buffer. That's it. They changed the SMS protocol from "text message" to "Email".
      The entire series of protocols - both SMS and Email - are designed to be modular and system agnostic. Plug the protocols into a wired network, they work. Plug them into a wireless network, they work. Hey mix and match, they still work. Imagine then, if you will, that you can pipe the one into the other & have them work ... I am astounded, absolutely stunned at the ingeniousness it takes to do that. It's like nobody ever thought to re-route emails to a fax.

    107. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by pruss · · Score: 1

      Moreover, remember the poster who said that the right criterion is not whether it is obvious, but whether it is obvious given the problem. I don't know patent law, so I don't know if this is the right criterion, but if it is, then a portable device for email IS obvious. It's obvious as a solution to the problem of how a businessperson can get email while traveling without carrying a large device and without the device having to be connected by wire to anything. Namely, he does it by carrying... gasp... a small device and connecting it... gasp... wirelessly. Now HOW to do this may involve some non-obvious, patentable processes (how to make a small enough device with enough computing power, how to make powerful enough batteries, etc.) But the idea of doing this in some way or other is obvious once one is clear on what the problem is.

      Does anybody know if the conditional formulation "obvious given the problem" is the right one in US patent law? I agree with the poster that this would probably rule out a ton of patents, since once one identifies the problem, often--but not always--the solutions are pretty obvious. But identifying the problem can be hard.

    108. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree that the motivation portion of the test is valid. If there has been a problem, with repeated failed attempts at a solution, over the course of years, then the solution is not obvious, no matter how simple it is in practice. (Encasing batteries in a metal housing to prevent leakage is the example given in the transcript - a 20 year problem with a stupidly simple solution.)

      The motivation part is important, sure. However, saying that if people have been looking for a solution for decades, and only now someone 'found' a solution is not a good test because it does not account for the often occring sytuation where not all technology required exists untill now. The underlying technology might be a candidate for a patent of course, thereby inspiring others to come up with an alternative.

      With the battery example, a metal cover should not be patentable, but a specific way to make that etal covering might well be patentable.

      The "teach, suggest" part of the test is just a restatement of prior art. "If the body of prior art teaches or suggests a solution, it is obvious, otherwise it is not." Transferring the "genre, artist, album, song" hierachy menus from a computer's jukebox program, to an MP3 player that has a graphical display fails this test for anyone reasonably skilled in the art of interface design, and yet the patent was granted to MS.

      Hence my statement that people arguing that obviousness equals prior art + documented motivation to combine that prior art, are acting as if those who wrote the law are a bunch of idiots who did not realize they wrote the same thing twice. That this line of thought is invalid should really be obvious.

      How do you fix it so that solutions that are "obvious to someone reasonably skilled in the art" can be shown to be obvious to people not skilled in the art? I have no ideas. I just know the current method doesn't work.

      The problem is that you can't in many cases. Someone not skilled in the art does often not have the experience to understand how the solution is obvious.

      If you want patents and don't want a 'first to file regardless of inventiveness' situation, you HAVE to use experts to determine the validity of said patents, and judges are not those experts, they are experts in entirely other things, and there are very good reasons why we leave certain kinds of decisions to them, but techical validity of a patent should not be one of them.

    109. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Chacham · · Score: 1

      "We finally got a judge that was smarter than a racoon."

      I am a racoon, you insensitive clod!

    110. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by sosiosh · · Score: 1

      The real question isn't "how come you didn't think of it" but rather "why would you bother to think it". Not all topics are worth thinking about, even if they are original. Originality has to surpass obviousness to a certain degree, but can't be the only criteria for granting a patent. I could patent frosted flakes with bits of dried asparagus if originality were the only criterion.

    111. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 1
      This, incidentally, cuts to the heart of the problem: Whichever way you cut it, the patent system, as it is, is a barrier to innovation in some industries.

      Worse, it is a barrier to many *routine* activities in some industries.

      --
      Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
      The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
    112. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by chefmonkey · · Score: 1

      Not really. The patent examiners have the solution in front of them. It's easy to solve a puzzle when the answer is written down in front of you, so they're not really in a good position to judge "obviousness." What I'm proposing is based roughly on a "dirty room/clean room" approach where the examiner reduces the patent to its requirements, and the engineers propose a solution to meet those requirements.

    113. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by gwayne · · Score: 1

      small pool of engineers -- you could probably even find people do do it on a non-paid volunteer basis

      And not only that, but since many patent reviewers are overworked and obviously underqualified in certain disciplines, a neutral patent review board should be setup by the plethora of companies submitting them. Delegates would be assigned based on qualifications and discipline. It would then be like Congress--no obvious patents granted.

    114. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      Why is the addition of email software to a portable computer with a wireless network connection worthy of a patent?

      Sending email over a network... ZOMG Obvious.

      Wireless networking... Like you said, HAMs in the 80's.

      Combining the two... this is still obvious. It'd be like getting a patent on carrying groceries in an SUV based on the fact that it's a "significant innovation" from carrying groceries in a station wagon.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    115. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Exactly. This is, for all intents and purposes, an "on the internet" patent. You remember all those patents that said "a method for doing [something done every day] on the internet"? This is just "a method for doing [something done for years] to a wireless device." From what I've seen, there is no real change to existing well-understood designs except making the destination device be wireless, and the patent doesn't solve any new domain-specific problems. In other words, nothing was really invented at all; an existing technology was applied to a new device.

      I think that a good test for reapplication of an existing concept is this: does this solve any domain-specific problems in a new and inventive way? Has that solution been used in some other problem domain? Are the problem domains so different that the overwhelming majority of researchers in one domain would typically be unfamiliar with work in the other domain? For the patent to be valid, the answer to the first question must be yes, and the answer to either the second or third question must be "no".

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    116. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      No I said "a device". If you can combine a a series of technologies into a single device in a specified way, then yes, it should be patentable. When you miniturize things it's often a puzzle on how to make them fit. Solving that puzzle isn't obvious most of the time. That's a patentable device. But if I make it another way, then I don't violate 'your' patent. When you patent the concept, then you've fucked everyone, no matter how ingenious their method of putting it together.

    117. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      6 years from glue to practical product doesn't sound all too much to me.
      No fool, the practical product didn't appear till 1977, after 3 years of development. He had the idea in 1974. Besides, who cares what it sounds like to you? The point is, the glue already existed when Arthur Fry came up with the idea, which refutes the pulls-arguments-from-his-ass original poster who implied the non-obvious part of inventing the Post-It was developing an appropriate adhesive. Since so many like you are completely missing the point and brining up tangential issues, let me spell it out for you idiots:

      1. 1968, Spencer Silver accidentally invents a weak adhesive
      2. Attempt to use adhesive in a product fails, adhesive is shelved
      3. Six years pass, adhesive formula remains unused
      4. 1974, Arthur Fry, tired of his bookmarks falling out, in a flash of inspiration thinks "what if there was adhesive on them"
      5. Working at 3M, he looked at their catalog of existing adhesives for something suitable and found Spencer Silver's formula
      6. 1977, after three years of development, 3M funds an initial sample production run of the Post-It
      7. 1980, after three years of sampling, the product hits the shelves.

      Post-Its simply fucking weren't a product waiting for technology to catch up.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    118. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      The biggest problem with our patent system is that it gives WAY too much weight to "the idea", and grossly undervalues the work of actually transforming it into a practical, manufacturable, real-world product. Most cases where people scream about "obvious" patents seem to be ones where the patentholder had "an idea" and registered it long before he or anyone else had any real way of turning it into a product that could actually be manufactured and sold.

      IMHO, patents should be viewed as a gradient with at least two shades... "idea" and "implementation". Patent applications should be allowed to claim that referenced patents are one or the other. If the USPTO agrees, patents judged to be "ideas" relative to the new patent would be eligible for compulsory licensing by the new patent's owner at a fairly low statutory rate that depends entirely upon the licensing fees charged by the new patent's owner (or his real profit, if the owner also is the manufacturer). So... if the USPTO decides that patent "B" is a real implementation of patent "A" that documents real solutions to real problems (like manufacturability), patent B's owner might be granted an automatic license to pay patent A's owner 10% of its own licensing fees (or profit, if the owner is also the manufacturer). The license would be documented in an appendix to Patent B itself. Someone licensing patent B would have no relationship at all with patent A's owner... all money would flow through patent B's owner. Furthermore, patent A's owner would have no say in patent B's licensing fees. If patent B's owner decides to license it free for noncommercial use, patent A's owner gets 10% of... nothing. If patent B's owner decides to license it to someone for $10 million/year for unlimited quantities made during the year, patent A's owner would get $1 million of it.

      The basic idea is to make licensing as straightforward as possible, clarifying relationships and eliminating lots of lawyer intermediaries... and enabling people who REALLY deserve patent protection to sidestep the trolls. If patent A's owner sent a demand to a licensee of patent B, the USPTO's determination that B trumped A and qualified for compulsory licensing would be prima-facie evidence of non-infringement by patent B's licensee, and they could turn around and sue patent A's owner for statutory damages for harrassment.

    119. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by 2short · · Score: 1


      Not that I disagree with you generally, but the Post-Its Patent was for the adhesive formula.

    120. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      What's ingenious about running software on a computer? I mean, we've had handheld computers with text input since the mid-90's. Perhaps there's some ingenious wireless antenna design that you could argue is patentable, but once you have a wireless handheld computer... running network applications (like email, or a web browser, or VOIP, or networked pong, or whatever) just isn't obvious.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    121. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      Not that I disagree with you generally, but the Post-Its Patent was for the adhesive formula.
      Aye, that does make the example a bit awkward. That's kinda why I went with the McCoy oiler as a second, better example.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    122. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just curious, why do you believe 99% of of patents should not be valid?

      How do you propose to perform your test? If others "skilled in the art" already know that there is a solution, then >you are injecting hindsight into the equation, and EVERYTHING is obvious once you have hindsight.


      those are good questions, but posting them on slashdot, it is likely that the only person fit to answer them is long gone.

      But just because you claim to have thought of something first doesn't make another's invention obvious. How do you prove that you came up with it first? Is the patent office or the courts just supposed to take your word for it?

      You are using an old trick and I honnestly cannot see how people can rate you Insightfull while you sould be qualified as Deceitfull. Clearly the person you are answering to didn't complain about being the fisrt make an invention, seeing it patented by someone else. You are twisting his words in a clever manner, I can acknowledge that.

      If you really want to keep others from patenting something you invented "first," put up a webpage, publish a paper, let the world know about your "obvious" invention -- that's how you can do this. Coming back 10 years later when someone else is successful and sitting back and complaining that it was "obvious" because you invented it "first" doesn't do any good at all.

      Again that is not at all related to the post you are answering. The point made was that if he thought of the invention several years ago, it is because the invention is obvious, and therefore does not qualifies as patentable.

      --a lost frenchman--

    123. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by leabre · · Score: 1

      "I could have thought of that" vs. "why didn't you think of that" can probly be described best as, not having thought of it becuase the person saying it wasn't confronted with solving the problem.

      I'm a business software programmer. Never programmed a game in my life or studied how to do it. I don't participate in conversations or venues that are even remotely related. I am not a graphic artist and don't deal with that kind of stuff.

      Yet, I sat down the other day to make a side-scrolling simple game of the NES era and needed to solve the problem of scrolling tile-based screens. After about 15 minutes of thought, I came up with the exact same solution that Carmack eventually did when he came up with an extremely "clever" way of PC's of the era to do side-scrolling (appearantly he even did a remake of Super Mario Bros. 3). It just seemed logical to me from two perspecitves: 1) despite having GHz of power, I still want to keep performance at its peak, and 2) it seems better to stream only the visible area of the game map plus some off screen border and shift the image around than to constantly re-render the screen 60x/sec and grind the CPU. There's a few other things regarding graphics/game programming that I thought of to solve the problem that appearantly are well known techniques, also.

      My point here is that there are a few things that all of us can think of if we are confronted with the problem. So while it might be valid "I could have done that", for the most part, we all could have thought of that when confronted with the problem to solve, but there are some things that aren't ovbious.

      For example, we call could have thought of electro-statically charging some fur at the end of a broom to make it a magnet for dust, but when confronted with solving the problem of making a dust magnet broom, only very few would be able to conduct proper research into the physics to even discover that would work in the first place. Even among physicists, it may not be obvious such things.

      Obviousness is hard to guage. The only way to truly rule it out is, during the patent examination period, propose the problem to people practicing the art who are all at various levels of skill/non-skill in the art, and have them indepentantly solve the problem without collaboration or reviewing the solution proposed by the patent.

      Thanks,
      Leabre

    124. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      Christ in a sidecar. If I had a nickel for every time I wished I could access my email account from somewhere other than the computer lab back in the mid 80's, I'd have enough money to pay a goon to knock some sense into your head. Mere portability of an existing system is not a novel fucking innovation, you dumbshit.

      Is the ad hominem really necessary?

      The NTP patents don't cover the broad "portable email access," they cover a specific functionality that allows portable email access. Just thinking something is a good idea is NOT prior art under the law.

      You don't even understand the problem with the current system, do you. The problem RIM had was that the legal test to disprove novelty requires documentation (generally from a previous patent), and people don't waste time writing down and meticulously documenting the bloody obvious. This is why (as the GP poster said) the current test is rubbish.

      I understand the current system, warts and all, very well, thank you. My problem isn't that the current system is perfect -- it isn't, not by a long shot -- but my problem is, what's a better way to do it? I'm not going to repeat everything I've written in other posts, but there are a lot of things to consider -- hindsight being the biggest one, biases amongst "experts" in the field, who is an "expert" that is qualified to opine on whether or not an invention is "obvious," etc. There might be a better test out there -- personally, I like the (what are known as) the Deere factors for obviousness -- evidence of longfelt need, acceptance by the marketplace, failed attempts by others -- but those aren't what the law uses to determine legal obviousness, they are just factors that tend to support or reject obviousness in a certain case.

      The problem is, unless the law itself is changed (and maybe it needs to be), non-obviousness is a legal requirement for a patent. And as long as it is a requirement, there need to be tests to determine what is, and what is not, obvious. The current test is an attempt to determine obviousness while trying to minimize the impact of hindsight. Here's a paper you might (or might not) find an interesting read: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id =928662

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    125. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      What's ingenious about running software on a computer? I mean, we've had handheld computers with text input since the mid-90's. Perhaps there's some ingenious wireless antenna design that you could argue is patentable, but once you have a wireless handheld computer... running network applications (like email, or a web browser, or VOIP, or networked pong, or whatever) just isn't obvious.

      There is nothing ingenious about running software on a computer. Building the computer to an entirely new series of specifications is. That's the point. You shouldn't be patenting the idea of a miniaturized pc running software to do something, you should be patenting the implementation of that idea. In RIMs case that would be the Blackberry itself. Even there, it's debatable if it is truely worth a patent, I don't recall if SMS w/ 2 way communication was available for text pagers prior to the first Blackberry or not, but I believe it was. In that context, changing a phone number for an email address is not worthy of a patent.

      What might have been worth a patent was the ability to integrate a cpu powerful enough to run the software, with the memory, and the display, and the RF module, all while keeping the battery life at a reasonable level in a package small enough to be convenient. I could have done it if you didn't mind walking around with a Flyer Wagon to carry the system, but getting it to fit in your pocket took some doing. Depending on the state of the art at the time, it may or may not have passed the "someone reasonably skilled in the art" test. That it was desirable to do, was obvious. How to implement it, much less so. That's the problem with a lot of the patents currently. They vaugely restate the problem and claim all the apparatus that solve it.

    126. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 1

      Yeah...raccoons are smart enough to rinse off the pubic hair.

    127. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by pipingguy · · Score: 1

      At the risk of sounding like a suck-up, Slashcode deserves a patent.

      Seriously, though, it's been very innovative, enough so that I've stayed around long enough to make 2000 posts (some while sober), and I'm not even a software developer, programmer or other IT-type person.

      It's got its warts, but it is one hell of a great user-oriented/participation system.

      Now that the suckupitude is done, who can help me set up Slashcode for my own site?

    128. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by pipingguy · · Score: 1

      I suspect the beavers, myself.

    129. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by volpe · · Score: 1

      Microsoft wants us to pay them for double clicking icons.

      In fairness to Microsoft, that's only because they have to pay Amazon twice.

    130. Re:Yeah for the raccoons by onemorechip · · Score: 1

      So now we are rating pop culture references relating to the thread in which they appear "off-topic"? Oh, ye humorless moderators...

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
  2. Yeah by TwoCell · · Score: 1

    It's about time.

    --
    Sherman Boyd
    www.twocell.com
  3. Slashdot patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Uh no.. Will Slashdot lose its patent on dupes?

    1. Re:Slashdot patents by Jerry+Coffin · · Score: 2, Informative
      Uh no.. Will Slashdot lose its patent on dupes?

      It's not really a dupe. You see, last time the "news" was that news.com was running a story about the case. This time, the "news" is that embedded.com is running a story about the case. The case itself is hardly news -- it's been around since April of 2005. Well, the real case is still older, but that's when they appealed to the Supreme Court.

      Next week, it'll be news again -- and with a lot of luck they might find a link that's actually informative. Then again, that page has been around since June, so it's hardly news. Maybe coverage of the recent arguments would really be better. Oh wait...that's only a blog entry, undoubtedly written by some left wing nutcase. Maybe by next week, we can get a highly informed piece from a legitimate news service instead.



      What, me sarcastic? Nevvvvverrrrrr!

      --
      The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
    2. Re:Slashdot patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh no.. Will Slashdot lose its patent on dupes?

  4. Patented already by IWannaBeAnAC · · Score: 5, Funny

    'It looks to me at about the same level as I have a sensor on my garage door at the lower hinge ... and the raccoons are eating it. So I think of the brainstorm of putting it on the upper hinge.'

    Too late dude, I already patented that.

    1. Re:Patented already by Tackhead · · Score: 1
      > > 'It looks to me at about the same level as I have a sensor on my garage door at the lower hinge ... and the raccoons are eating it. So I think of the brainstorm of putting it on the upper hinge.'
      >
      > Too late dude, I already patented that.

      And to add insult to injury, Raccoon Mario flew up, ate the hinge, and sued both of you for patent infringement.

    2. Re:Patented already by Spit · · Score: 1

      Bears kept eating my sensor on the upper hinge, so I patented moving it to the lower hinge. Would you like to do an IP trade?

      --
      POKE 36879,8
  5. obvious by Rudisaurus · · Score: 5, Funny
    During oral arguments, Justice Breyer observed, 'It looks to me at about the same level as I have a sensor on my garage door at the lower hinge ... and the raccoons are eating it. So I think of the brainstorm of putting it on the upper hinge.'"
    Ah -- the old "raccoons eating the hinges" analogy.
    --
    licet differant, aequabitur
    1. Re:obvious by Rudisaurus · · Score: 1

      Apologies to PharmBoy -- you did get there first, buddy!

      --
      licet differant, aequabitur
    2. Re:obvious by Spug · · Score: 1

      Isn't this the old "raccoons eating the sensor" analogy?

    3. Re:obvious by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1
      Isn't this the old "raccoons eating the sensor" analogy?


      That's the beauty of it! You THINK its the old "raccoons eating the hinges" analogy... but its actually unexpected twist; this time it's the sensor! It's new. It's edgy. It's high-tech! What's even better is that its just ripe for development. Just as everyone is comfortable with this sudden leap ahead, we'll produce our "racoons eating sensors ON THE INTERNET" patent we've been keeping tucked away. Sure, sure... some will probably complain about company officials sitting on the Racoon Suburban Infestation committee while sensor standards were being discussed. But we'll have another ace up our sleeve. Before the company stock gets cold, we'll spring the "one-nibble sensor eating racoon" patent. It's a gold mine, I tell you.
    4. Re:obvious by RenHoek · · Score: 1

      Ladies and gentlemen, this is a squirrel. A squirrel is a mammal that lives in trees. But this squirrel lives in my garage. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

      Why would a squirrel, an eight-inch tall rodent, want to live in my garage, with a bunch of broken sensors? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with patents? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with patents! It does not make sense!

      Look at me. I'm a judge presiding a major patent case, and I'm talkin' about squirrels! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If squirrels live in my garage, you must acquit! This judge needs a rest.

  6. I invented cheesy mashed potatoes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure mashed potatoes was invented... and cheese,

    but my clever invention adds the two together, to create "Cheesy Mashed Potatoes".

    Also I am patenting "Cheesy Potatoes and Peas", and "Cheesy Potatoes and Beans" as these are also very unique inventions.

    I would consider selling my these patents if they become popular.

    1. Re:I invented cheesy mashed potatoes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bitch I already patented "methods and implementations of combining starchy vegetables with other food and food-related items and activities". I'll see your ass in court! I also hold the copyright and trademark on every variation of the phrase "Cheesy Mashed Potatoes" so I'll see your ass in court TWICE. Unless you are interested in paying a small licensing fee?

    2. Re:I invented cheesy mashed potatoes. by Loadmaster · · Score: 1

      Both of you shutup. I patented eating. Both of your products encourages wholesale violation of my patent. Pay me a licensing fee or I'll be forced to declare you both Al Qaeda terrorists.

      W

    3. Re:I invented cheesy mashed potatoes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      I have the ultimte test of patentability.

      If it takes more time to fill out and file the patent application than it did to invent the new work the patent should be thrown out and never spoken of again.

      Now if you'll excuse me I have some jiffy pop to microwave.

  7. Obligatory Bitch by overshoot · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I wonder how many people posted this one before it got accepted? After all, it only happened two freaking days ago with months of notice. It's so old the stories were in print papers yesterday, and the GrokLaw newspick that announces the official transcript [1] scrolled off the main page yesterday.

    I used to read /. for breaking news. Now it's just windy.

    [1] Courts are not known for haste in posting official transcripts. /. is, apparently, quite a bit slower.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Obligatory Bitch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but...but...what would have happened if we weren't told about Zune Sales or some lame-ass blogger spamming about a new "email service" or Dvorak's latest drivel???omgwontsomoenethinkofthechildren!!!!!!!!!

    2. Re:Obligatory Bitch by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "I used to read /. for breaking news. "

      hahahaha..... /. has NEVER been the place for breaking news.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Obligatory Bitch by Durrok · · Score: 1

      Also /. does not generate it's own content... users do. So unless someone submits the article it's never going to get posted. You want /. to be on the bleeding edge of the headlines? Submit fresh news stories when you find them.

      --
      I keep telling myself I'm not the desperate type.
    4. Re:Obligatory Bitch by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      Courts are not known for haste in posting official transcripts.

      Except for the Supreme Court, which posts its transcripts the same day.

  8. GPL for obvious patents? by sweet+'n+sour · · Score: 1

    Maybe there should be a repository of "obvious patents". Any new patent that only does simple combinations from these "obvious patents" should also then be added to the repository... Somewhat, though to a lesser degree, what the GPL does with open source code. Expired patents would also fall into the repository, as would any patent a company wanted to "donate".

  9. I'm confused... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The article says:
    Most major technology vendors would like to see the test done away with as they believe it would make it easier for them to fend off lawsuits from claimants accusing them of patent violations. Microsoft, IBM, and Cisco Systems are among the tech companies that have submitted briefs to the Supreme Court supporting KSR.

    Here I believe "the test" refers to the one mentioned earlier: "accepted test for showing that the plaintiff [patenter?]'s invention would have been obvious to an individual of reasonable skill." I'm not quite sure what the article means by seeing the test "done away with":

    • Making it no longer necessary for patents to be non-obvious? If so, they badly misunderstood the major tech companys' arguments...they want more patents to be struck down as obvious. The next paragraph characterizes their argument better - they want to avoid the situation in which someone patents something obvious and uses it to sue a real innovator.
    • Shifting the burden of proof so that the patenter (not the alleged infringer) has to prove that the patent is non-obvious? I thought this was legally the status quo, though the quality of some patents would suggest practice differs for software...
    • Replacing the test with one that better accomplishes the same goal? (Somewhere there must be details of how this is tested, and they're not good?) I guess this seems most likely, given this quote: "I would say its [the lower court's?] test is meaningless," said Scalia. "It doesn't add anything to the question, 'Would a person of ordinary skill in this field have conceived of this idea?' "

    I think the article is crap. Legal arguments are quite nuanced, and it seems like the writer has removed too much context to really understand what the Supreme Court Justices are saying in these quotes.

    1. Re:I'm confused... by Macadamizer · · Score: 5, Informative

      Perceptive post.

      Making it no longer necessary for patents to be non-obvious?

      Since there is already a statute that requires patents to be nonobvious -- 35 U.S.C. 103 -- it's unlikey that the courts are going to go in this direction.

      Shifting the burden of proof so that the patenter (not the alleged infringer) has to prove that the patent is non-obvious? I thought this was legally the status quo, though the quality of some patents would suggest practice differs for software...

      Once a patent is issued, it is presumed valid -- which means, it is presumed to be patentable subject matter (35 U.S.C. 101), novel (35 U.S.C. 102), nonobvious (35 U.S.C. 103), and enabled (35 U.S.C. 112). It is up to the person challenging the validity to show why a patent isn't patentable, isn't novel, is obvious, or is not enabled.

      I guess they could be trying to move away from the presumption of validity, in which case a patent owner would need to prove that the patent WAS valid in order to assert the patent (the opposite of what we have now). Maybe that's the way we want to go, to a European-style patent system. Personally I don't think it's the right way to go, but what do I know.

      Replacing the test with one that better accomplishes the same goal? (Somewhere there must be details of how this is tested, and they're not good?) I guess this seems most likely, given this quote: "I would say its [the lower court's?] test is meaningless," said Scalia. "It doesn't add anything to the question, 'Would a person of ordinary skill in this field have conceived of this idea?' "

      To show that an invention is "obvious," you need essentially need to show one or more pieces of prior art that, in combination, "anticipate" or disclose the invention seeking to be patented, and you must show some "motivation to combine" the art into a single invention. The criticisms typically focus either on the fact that the art must meet the standards for prior art -- which usually means a written record -- or that the motivation to combine factor is too nebulous.

      It is a tricky test; however, the test is an attempt to balance "hindsight" against wha is truely obvious. The problem is, almost every invention is "obvious" in hindsight -- the current obviousness test is an attempt to weed out hindsight.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    2. Re:I'm confused... by jbengt · · Score: 1

      They were talking about the test of Teaching, Suggestion, Motivation to determine if combining existing things would be obvious or patentable. The Supreme Court just might change or eliminate that test, but don't hold your breath. Sometimes judges will have the toughest questioning for the side that they eventually rule in favor of.

    3. Re:I'm confused... by Jerry+Coffin · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Once a patent is issued, it is presumed valid -- which means, it is presumed to be patentable subject matter (35 U.S.C. 101), novel (35 U.S.C. 102), nonobvious (35 U.S.C. 103), and enabled (35 U.S.C. 112). It is up to the person challenging the validity to show why a patent isn't patentable, isn't novel, is obvious, or is not enabled.

      IMO, this is one of the real sticking points: right now, when somebody applies for a patent, they have to declare that they think it's novel. The patent examiner then looks to see if it look obvious (to them). The standard, at this point, however is only that the patent applicant has to show that the "preponderance of the evidence" is in their favor. Oh, and patent examiners virtually never look at anything except older patents and applications.

      When a patent is challenged, however, that changes: the challenger now has to show "clear and convincing evidence" that the patent is really obvious after all. This means, from a legal viewpoint, that the patent is supposed to be considered valid, even if there's a fairly strong reason to believe otherwise.

      To add to that, nearly every patent office (definitely including the US PTO) gets part or all of its funding from patents that it issues. Worse still, examiners are rated (partly) in terms of the number of applications they examine. Neither of these really encourages patent examiners to do be as thorough as possible and reject all patent applications that really should be (though, in fairness, given their workload, I'm frequently impressed at how good of a job patent examiners do anyway).

      To show that an invention is "obvious," you need essentially need to show one or more pieces of prior art that, in combination, "anticipate" or disclose the invention seeking to be patented, and you must show some "motivation to combine" the art into a single invention.

      The motivation to combine must be a bit more than "motivation" as most people would think of it. Most of us would think of things like "it saves money" or "it makes the product smaller/lighter/more dependable" -- but when you're trying prove a patent is obvious, you're typically looking at something like combining two research articles, and the motivation to combine needs to be either a direct reference from one article to the other, or a third article that references both the ones you're looking at.

      The standard for measurement of many things in patents is the "person of ordinary skill in the art" (POSITA). It seems to me that the POSITA has been reduced to something that bears essentially no resemblance to any real person at all. Instead, it's an almost purely mythical construct, with total awareness of all existing products and publications, and the ability to understand them, but essentially no ability to do any thinking at all. In particular, they can't draw even the most obvious conclusions unless something has been published to "suggest" (i.e. state) that conclusion for them. Even though they're theoretically aware of all papers, they're not able to put any two of them together without specific bibliographic references.

      I know of at least one professor from Stanford who argued that putting a current limiting resistor in line with an LED was beyond the abilities of a person of ordinary skill in the art! If memory serves, he even won the case...

      --
      The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
    4. Re:I'm confused... by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      The actual arguments presented in court were a bit cumbersome to understand without reading the briefs and such, but what I got from the arguments was that the Circuit Courts have (in the absence of guidance from the SCOTUS) devised their own test for figuring out whether or not something is obvious: in particular, they rely on there being a teaching, suggestion, or motivation to combine prior art in a particular way before they consider a new invention to be an "obvious" extension of the old one.

      This is, er, obviously beyond the layman's definition of obvious, and it is far harder to find that an invention is an obvious combination of prior art under that definition than under the layman's definition. I believe that "doing away with" the test refers to eliminating the Circuit Courts' definition and returning to a more literal reading of the statute that doesn't require an intermediate test to declare obviousness.

      I ANAL and all that.

    5. Re:I'm confused... by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      IMO, this is one of the real sticking points: right now, when somebody applies for a patent, they have to declare that they think it's novel. The patent examiner then looks to see if it look obvious (to them). The standard, at this point, however is only that the patent applicant has to show that the "preponderance of the evidence" is in their favor. Oh, and patent examiners virtually never look at anything except older patents and applications.

      Well, there is the affirmative duty for the patentee to disclose anything that might be material to patentability. Whether or not most patentees actually do a good job of this or not is an open question -- but considering the penalties for not disclosing material art (loss of the patent, maybe loss of a job to the patent agent/attorney is the Office of Enrollement and Discipline finds their failure to disclose egregious enough), I think that most patentees to a better than average job of disclosure.

      When a patent is challenged, however, that changes: the challenger now has to show "clear and convincing evidence" that the patent is really obvious after all. This means, from a legal viewpoint, that the patent is supposed to be considered valid, even if there's a fairly strong reason to believe otherwise.

      If you didn't have the "clear and convincing" standard, then the patent would have no presumption of validity, and we would have a European-style patent system. Maybe that's a better system, I don't know -- I don't think so, but that's just my opinion. I guess we could switch to a "clear and convincing" standard for a patentee to overcome an obviousness rejection (or other type of rejection), but that would make a LOT more work for the examiners, and would increase the costs of obtaining a patent significantly. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe not -- but something to consider, I suppose.

      To add to that, nearly every patent office (definitely including the US PTO) gets part or all of its funding from patents that it issues. Worse still, examiners are rated (partly) in terms of the number of applications they examine. Neither of these really encourages patent examiners to do be as thorough as possible and reject all patent applications that really should be (though, in fairness, given their workload, I'm frequently impressed at how good of a job patent examiners do anyway).

      I think given the conditions the patent office works under, they do a pretty decent job.

      The thing people often forget (or don't realize) it that the issued patent may be far narrower than either the original application or the written specification. Although it's true that most patents applications that are taken all the way through the examination process eventually get issued, many are issued as only a shadow of their original selves, and many issued patents have claims that are so narrow it would take a patent attorney to figure out how to infringe them in the first place! Although a lot of patents get allowed, I'm not sure that necessarily translates into a lot of bad patents being allowed.

      The motivation to combine must be a bit more than "motivation" as most people would think of it. Most of us would think of things like "it saves money" or "it makes the product smaller/lighter/more dependable" -- but when you're trying prove a patent is obvious, you're typically looking at something like combining two research articles, and the motivation to combine needs to be either a direct reference from one article to the other, or a third article that references both the ones you're looking at.

      Agreed. I wasn't completely clear in my post. But this high standard for motivation to combine is a result of trying to overcome obvious due to hindsight. Maybe it doesn't do a good job, but that's the reason for it. Everything looks obvious in hindsight.

      Instead, it's an almost purely mythical construct, with total awareness of all existing products and publications, and the ability to understand them, but essentia

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    6. Re:I'm confused... by Jerry+Coffin · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Well, there is the affirmative duty for the patentee to disclose anything that might be material to patentability.

      Not quite. They're obliged to disclose anything of which they're aware -- but they're not required to do any searching to find anything of which they weren't already aware. At least from what I've seen, most cite things they can't reasonably avoid (e.g. their own earlier patents, papers they've written, etc.) but darned little else. I've seen an "inventor" claim that he'd never read the data sheet for a part he used (he was just such a genius, he knew the pinout without looking...). The data sheet referenced an app note that almost directly disclosed his "invention"...

      but considering the penalties for not disclosing material art (loss of the patent, maybe loss of a job to the patent agent/attorney is the Office of Enrollement and Discipline finds their failure to disclose egregious enough), I think that most patentees to a better than average job of disclosure.

      They can only lose much of anything if it can be shown that they really were aware of the material. If most do a better job than average, either there's a lot of skew in that average, or else you're using "average" a bit differently than I learned it in statistics class (or maybe my memory's going bad after all these years -- though I still very clearly remember a girl who always showed up in some of the tightest jeans I've ever seen...)

      What would YOU do if someone was paying you $300 or $400 per hour to say something like that!

      Having previously been an expert witness, and having declined the umm...honor in at least one other case, I think I can say with reasonable certainty that I'd decline in a case like that. Come to think of it, nobody's asked me to be an expert witness for a while though...

      --
      The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
    7. Re:I'm confused... by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      Not quite. They're obliged to disclose anything of which they're aware -- but they're not required to do any searching to find anything of which they weren't already aware. At least from what I've seen, most cite things they can't reasonably avoid (e.g. their own earlier patents, papers they've written, etc.) but darned little else. I've seen an "inventor" claim that he'd never read the data sheet for a part he used (he was just such a genius, he knew the pinout without looking...). The data sheet referenced an app note that almost directly disclosed his "invention"...

      Absolutely correct, and a point I should have made myself. However, many inventors do exactly the opposite of what you describe -- many try and push through as much stuff as they can find, because once an examiner has seen a reference, the presumption, should litigation arise down the road, is that the examiner looked at the reference (whether he actually did or not), and therefore the presumption is that the reference is NOT an invalidating reference. Basically, some patentees will try and "wash" art through the patent office so it can't be used as art later on down the road in litigation.

      They can only lose much of anything if it can be shown that they really were aware of the material. If most do a better job than average, either there's a lot of skew in that average, or else you're using "average" a bit differently than I learned it in statistics class (or maybe my memory's going bad after all these years -- though I still very clearly remember a girl who always showed up in some of the tightest jeans I've ever seen...)

      Unfortunately, I have no personal recollection of the tight jeans...

      What I meant by this was most inventors take their oath (their oath of disclosure) seriously, and most inventors (that I've worked with) are pretty forthcoming with art in their applications.

      Having previously been an expert witness, and having declined the umm...honor in at least one other case, I think I can say with reasonable certainty that I'd decline in a case like that. Come to think of it, nobody's asked me to be an expert witness for a while though...

      I've not seen an expert say anything that was simply, proveably wrong, but I have seen experts say the opposite of what they themselves have previously written in academic papers. I've also seen a Professor of Electrical Engineering who couldn't remember what he meant be the term "active device" in his OWN patent on an amplifier device...

      That's why the courts are smart to not trust experts...

      BTW start going along with what your lawyers ask you to say, you'll make more money!

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    8. Re:I'm confused... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, necessity is the mother of invention (and of patents), and a solution may be obvious, only if you've had the necessity. Before the world wide web and browsers, there was no necessity for "one click" shopping, but it's pretty damn obvious when you start using the web. There are plenty of patent's out there that any reasonable individual would have come up with if they'd had a need for it. Then, there are those that are definately "ah, ha!" moments (Philo Farnsworth's TV is a good example).

    9. Re:I'm confused... by Jerry+Coffin · · Score: 1
      Absolutely correct, and a point I should have made myself. However, many inventors do exactly the opposite of what you describe -- many try and push through as much stuff as they can find, because once an examiner has seen a reference, the presumption, should litigation arise down the road, is that the examiner looked at the reference (whether he actually did or not), and therefore the presumption is that the reference is NOT an invalidating reference.

      Oh, make no mistake, I think most inventors do a fine job of disclosing everything of which they're aware. It does seem to me, however, that the system is almost surprisingly open to abuse.

      BTW start going along with what your lawyers ask you to say, you'll make more money!

      You might be right -- but right now, I make enough to pay my bills, and I still have my self-respect, and I value that more than a bigger house, newer car, etc. I don't mean to sound particularly noble or anything, because I don't think I really am -- in fact, acting as an expert witness is comparatively unusual for me, so I doubt it'd make a lot of difference either way. If I never act as an expert witness again, I doubt it'll affect my income too drastically.

      --
      The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
    10. Re:I'm confused... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be honest, I *really* think that independent invention ought to count against a patent. If another person figured it out on their own, I really think that throws the "obvious" aspect into doubt, unless there's some reason to believe that they learned the technique from the original person's work.

      So yeah, I really don't have a problem with invalidating lots of the current patents. I don't think someone deserves a patent for things which are "not obvious" but rather only for things which are *clearly new or innovative* ... and if that means we have very few total patents, that would be a good result to me, especially when all the patent applications I've read were written in legalese and so uninformative that I honestly don't think I could tell what the invention *was* half the time, even though I could see lots of existing products that could fit its very vague parameters.

  10. Who makes the new laws? by gravesb · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hopefully, the court won't go so far as to create a new standard, just rule that the current one is not Constitutional. That would force Congress to write a new patent standard, which is who should be deciding the issue. Patents haven't become high viz enough to be a campaign issue, but I'd love to see an advisory panel of both industry and academic representatives formed to create a better system, and then have Congress vote on that.

    --
    http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Who makes the new laws? by Timesprout · · Score: 1

      Our newly welcomed new law making overlords of course.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    2. Re:Who makes the new laws? by Macadamizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hopefully, the court won't go so far as to create a new standard, just rule that the current one is not Constitutional. That would force Congress to write a new patent standard, which is who should be deciding the issue. Patents haven't become high viz enough to be a campaign issue, but I'd love to see an advisory panel of both industry and academic representatives formed to create a better system, and then have Congress vote on that.

      I'm not convinced that our congresscritters would be able to come up with any more competant test for obviousness than the one we already have!

      However, there is a patent reform act making the rounds through congress right now. I haven't looked at it recently, but I remember when it was first floated, there were a few eye-openers in the act, including (if I remember correctly) a shift from U.S. style "first to invent" to a European-style "first to file" -- I don't remember if a switch to "absolute novelty" was also included. Also, a very strict limitation on continuation and divisional practices, a limit on the number of claims, and a requirement that all patent applications be made public 18 months after filing (current is generally only patents that are also being filed in foreign countries are published after 18 months).

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    3. Re:Who makes the new laws? by Husgaard · · Score: 1
      Patents haven't become high viz enough to be a campaign issue, but I'd love to see an advisory panel of both industry and academic representatives formed to create a better system, and then have Congress vote on that.

      One of the important lessons we learned from the european fight over software patents is that there are companies and patent lawyers that are willing to "invest" heavily in lobbying for extending patentable subject matter.

      If this issue is decided by Congress, I am sure that the many lobbyists that would be deployed to influence your politicians would mean a patent law amendment saying that even more obvious "ideas" than right now could be patented.

      I have a lot more confidence that the US Supreme Court can strike a more reasonable balance between protecting new ideas and protecting the possibility of new innovation. Just like in Europe I think that the current case law in the US has evolved to a point where it is getting hard to find basis for the current case law in the law texts without a lot of word play, and I think this is the problem that the Supreme Court wants to look at.

      Personally I think that a better balance on the question of obviousness could be found by thinking about if a person skilled in the art knowing the current state of art at the time of the patent application and the problem at hand, but not the patented solution could device the patented solution in a few hours or days.

    4. Re:Who makes the new laws? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      'm not convinced that our congresscritters would be able to come up with any more competant test for obviousness than the one we already have!

            The current system:

            Oooh look, you've given me a LOT of money. OBVIOUSLY you must be right, and I should do what you say...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    5. Re:Who makes the new laws? by gravesb · · Score: 1

      The problem is that its not the Supreme Court's role to create standards like that. They are an unelected body appointed for life. While its true they are less open to lobbying, the more they legislate, the less like a republic the government works. There are plenty of problems with the way congress works right now. However, I would rather see Congress fixed (which is an entire other article) and be forced to do their job than the entire governmental system changed.

      --
      http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
  11. not quite... by coolgeek · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    "So I think of the brainstorm of putting it on the upper hinge."

    Except in her example, her design choices would no doubt result in tons of product liability for her company, when the sensors fail to stop the garage door from closing on a child.

    --

    cat /dev/null >sig
    1. Re:not quite... by netsfr · · Score: 1

      But it would squash those darn critters that are eating the sensors!

    2. Re:not quite... by Knara · · Score: 0

      So, you introduce something else the sensor is looking for up higher on the door. It's not brain surgery.

    3. Re:not quite... by Eideewt · · Score: 1

      The sensor is looking for children about to be crushed by a door. They tend to fall near the bottom of the door.

  12. Depends on how they write the rule. by raehl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem with a lot of these obvious patents isn't whether the invention was obvious or not, but whether the patent is an invention at all.

    A cotton gin is an invention, and should be patentable. Mechanically removing seeds from cotton is a problem, and shouldn't be patentable.

    1. Re:Depends on how they write the rule. by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      A cotton gin is an invention, and should be patentable. Mechanically removing seeds from cotton is a problem, and shouldn't be patentable.

      But isn't a cotton gin just a "method and apparatus for removing seeds from cotton?" Where do you draw the patentability line? Should an apparatus be patentable, but not a method?

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    2. Re:Depends on how they write the rule. by raehl · · Score: 1

      But isn't a cotton gin just a "method and apparatus for removing seeds from cotton?"

      No. A cotton gin is specifically a system including a comb and a wheel with spines.

    3. Re:Depends on how they write the rule. by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      And slots through which the fibers can pass but the seeds cannot.
      A cotton gin is an implementation of "a method and apparatus for removing seeds from cotton."
      Arthur C Clarke wrote about the "concept" of a communications satellite long before one was ever implemented, but he does not own the patent on it. Concepts are not inventions, they are ideas, theories at best, until someone manages to implement them.
      Patents are designed to protect implementations of ideas. For that they work well. They do not work when you are protecting the idea itself. IIRC there are ~15 patented designs for implementations of electric motors. However, they all could have been blocked had a modern patent for "An apparatus for converting EMF to rotational work using magnets and wire coils." been issued. Until the patent office gets back to patenting implementations, and not concepts, the patent system is going to be broken.

  13. The judge just proved he doesn't understand by chopper749 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Things are designed a way for a reason. The sensor is at the bottom to detect anything on the ground that would interfere with the door coming down. If you move the sensor to the top, it is now useless, and is also in violation of most, if not all, building codes.

  14. Wrong complaint by dereference · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm no apologist, but indeed it was covered two days ago, and even before it started six months ago. If you're going to complain, you might want to focus on the fact that--if anything--it's a dupe, and in no way is it a piece of ignored old news as you suggest.

  15. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by vertinox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Strikes me as true, and as always when claiming something is obvious, it begs the question "how come you didn't think of it then?"

    Well most of these people actually do think of the solution and actually create a working product, but then a Submarine Patent Troll comes out of the woodwork telling them that their actual invention violates their vague patent that they never bothered to bring to market or tell anyone else about.

    That is the key problem here... Not that it is just obvious, but they are going after people who do come up with the idea themselves rather than those who have stolen the idea from them.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  16. Dear Sirs.. by quakeroatz · · Score: 2, Funny

    I am the lawyer representing Procyon Lotor and instruct you to cease any and all mention of his "Top Hinge Detectomatic Mechanism" in your case. My client is the sole innovator of this device and trust that you will respect his pending patent.

    Yes we have prior art in the form of a maple limb which you will see was chewed in precisely the same manner as said invention.

    Sincerely,
    Miguel Sanchez

  17. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by Rodyland · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think you have nailed the current problem - the patent trolls who patent things that others have done but didn't think it was patentable/worth patenting. Of course, prior art should invalidate the patent, but that only works if you've got the money to pay for a lawyer, which brings me back to what I said above, and what appears to have been ignored. The problem with the system is the requirement for judges and lawyers to make decisions that they are seemingly not qualified or able to make.

  18. Shameless plug by RareButSeriousSideEf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Fantastic suggestion, IMHO. I gotta plug this concept, even though I've had time to do little besides registering the domain...

    Taxonomy of Obvious Ideas
    http://tooi.org/

    Similar idea to what you suggested, except that it doesn't restrict the repository to patented ideas. My goal is to help propel "ideas" -- and combinations thereof -- into the public domain or some free licensing scheme. If such a thing were done right & had significant mindshare 10 years ago, I doubt there would be a One-Click patent, or a patent on being able to rewind & fast-forward streaming music, etc.

    Ultimately, I need to find a few people significantly smarter than myself (and more informed in a number of critical areas) to make this work.

    1. Re:Shameless plug by TheLink · · Score: 1

      There used to be a site: shouldexist.org, there were plenty of ideas there - some obvious, some not so obvious. I submitted quite a few.

      Personally I don't think people who come up with brilliant ideas should automatically be rewarded a monopoly over them - it just doesn't scale. If we ever get to trillions of human beings such monopolies won't scale gracefully.

      Trademarks remain a good idea, perhaps if we scale to star systems a trademark might have to only be "system wide", maybe you'd need enough people to vote that a particular trademark can be considered "universal" - not enough people interested too bad.

      But patents and copyright?

      --
  19. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by Macadamizer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well most of these people actually do think of the solution and actually create a working product, but then a Submarine Patent Troll comes out of the woodwork telling them that their actual invention violates their vague patent that they never bothered to bring to market or tell anyone else about.

    What is a "submarine patent troll?" The 1995 Amendments to the patent laws pretty much ended the endless continuation practice that Lemelson, the original "submarine patent guy" used to his advantage.

    BTW, patents are public record -- they are all publicly available on the USPTO website. Should a patent holder have to go out and notify any potential infringers before they begin developing a product?

    That is the key problem here... Not that it is just obvious, but they are going after people who do come up with the idea themselves rather than those who have stolen the idea from them.

    How do you propose we sort out the "true" infringers who are "stealing" an idea from those who came up with the idea independently? What test to you propose to determine what independent development is? How far "back" in the development stream do you need to go to show "independence?"

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  20. sig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought that the 'not even wrong' quote was Wolfgang Pauli...

    1. Re:sig by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      You are right. I guess I lived up to my sig...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  21. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by vertinox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What is a "submarine patent troll?"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_patent

    Yes they both have extensive articles on Wiki. Although I may have taken the liberty to combine the two termns, but if you really don't know... Read the articles.

    The point is that Patent system doesn't require you to actually make an invention, but rather have a description on what these invention does. These things can often be very vague and people have been known to patent the wheel on occasion shows a big flaw in the Patent system.

    If I can patent the wheel with vague wording, what does that mean as far as patenting devices that may come into use by some other company?

    It isn't that hard to think of something to patent that someone might do since it the idea would be obvious. That is why this reason why it is being brought before the SCOTUS.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  22. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by Macadamizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes they both have extensive articles on Wiki. Although I may have taken the liberty to combine the two termns, but if you really don't know... Read the articles.

    I know exactly what both are. Submarine trolls may have been an issue at one point (see my earlier post), but are really not an issue any more. Even the wikipedia article is clear on that. My point was basically that submarine patents aren't really an issue any more (if they ever really were), and certainly aren't a reason now to mess with the obviousness standard.

    The point is that Patent system doesn't require you to actually make an invention, but rather have a description on what these invention does. These things can often be very vague and people have been known to patent the wheel on occasion shows a big flaw in the Patent system.

    You do realize that the wheel patent was in Australia, right?

    Yes, sometimes weird things do get through the patent office. But consider this -- there are many thousands of patents filed every week with the patent office. The patent office is a profit center -- they bring in far more money than they have a budget -- but congress siphons off most of the patent's office revenues for other projects, and leaves the patent office with far less staff and resources than they would have if congress left the patent office to support itself. Generally speaking, the patent office does a pretty good job with what it has.

    As far as the requirements for a patent go, a patent must make an "enabling disclosure" -- in other words, one of "ordinary skill" in the relevant art must be able to take the patent and, without "undue experimentation," practice the patent. What is sufficient to provide an "enabling disclosure" is different from art area to art area, and different from invention to invention -- but it is not generally true that a vague and hand-wavy disclosure is sufficient to result in an issued patent. It may happen sometimes, but it doesn't seem to happen very often.

    And when it does, such patents can be successfully challenged in court.

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  23. It May Be Re-Iterate Not Re-Write by darkonc · · Score: 4, Informative
    In the arguments, it was pointed out that there are already SCOTUS decisions that indicate that there is more to sustaining a patent than just proving that it is novel*. The problem is that the federal (patent) circuit hasn't been paying attention to these rulings -- part of the fight is whether or not it would be distruptive to simply force the courts and patent examiners to pay attention to the existing SCOTUS authorities that they've been studiously ignoring for the last 20 years.

    * (( in my mind, the current test, is really just a reformulation of the 'novel' test, because if you can prove that it isn't novel (new), then it won't pass the current 'obvious' test, and if you can prove it doesn't pass the 'obvious' test, then you've just proved that it's not 'novel'.))

    --
    Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
  24. He didn't do it on a computer by stinerman · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It looks to me at about the same level as I have a sensor on my garage door at the lower hinge ... and the raccoons are eating it. So I think of the brainstorm of putting it on the upper hinge.


    Ahh, this is quite obvious, but what about putting it on the upper hinge USING A COMPUTER? Doing any mundane thing is magically nonobvious when you're using a computer or doing it on the Internet.
  25. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Oh, shut up. Patents are written by engineering school washouts who couldn't manage to do real innovation but figured they could get through law school. They're reviewed by government pencil pushers that couldn't manage to get a job doing real engineering work, so they sit and read legal gibberish all day. They're overseen by clueless judges, politicians and career bureaucrats who have no clue about anything technical.

    It's a huge, bloated echo chamber of people who one-up each other in arguing just how low they can set the "obvious" bar. The whole patent industry is a self-serving cycle of money grubbing for royalties, filing fees and expanding government fiefdoms, driven by the refrain: "The world is filled with nothing but idiots! Nothing is obvious except in hindsight! Rubberstamp the application now and keep the money rolling in!!!"

  26. Justice Thomas by certsoft · · Score: 1
    Justice Breyer observed, 'It looks to me at about the same level as I have a sensor on my garage door at the lower hinge ... and the raccoons are eating it. So I think of the brainstorm of putting it on the upper hinge.'"

    Justice Thomas: "What's a hinge?"

  27. Everything is obvious to someone. Most don't care. by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2, Insightful
    There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we don't know - Ambrose Bierce

    Just because someone patents a "non-obvious" idea, doesn't mean that it is new. It may have been thought of before, but not thought important enough to patent.

    I think geeks in particular like to cry "That's obvious", because it is... but since geeks aren't "sleezy marketers", they don't rush out and patent things. (Hey, don't knock marketers, we need them to sell crap. I don't want to sell crap. I want to make stuff.)

    In other words, one's personality has as much to do with patentability as obviousness.

    Lots of smart people think of stuff and do nothing. Some folks think "pet rock" and market the hell out of it.

    I have, on more than one occasion, come across "new" ideas in SF novels that I invented. Again, independent invention does not mean "new".

    I had a philosophy teacher once describe a scale of "complexity"... at the bottom was straightforward stuff like Math. Up the scale you had other natural phenomena, up thru quantum physics and the like. At the top of the scale of complexity was "human organizations" - politics and the like.

    Patents, law, etc - All in this category. "Artificial", and harder than hell for rational geeks to deal with. That's why it is such a hot button.

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
  28. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    "You do realize that the wheel patent was in Australia, right?"

    It was revenge for stealing our Ugg boots!

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  29. It's looking good that the CAFC will be reigned in by mavenguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Standard disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, less a Supreme Court expert, but I am a former patent examiner.

    The the definitive previous case by the SCOTUS on the interpretation of obviousness is GRAHAM v. JOHN DEERE CO. in which the Court basically concluded that the 1952 enactment of section 103 of the patent statute was basically a codification of a line of judicial opinions going back into the 19th century (with the exception of a 1941 Supreme Court opinion that appeared to introduce a "flash of genius" test that the new law seemed to overrule in the last sentence of section 103). The "test" that this article mentions is the "suggestion" and "motivation" showings that the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC) and its predecessor, the Court of Customs and Patent Appeals (CCPA) developed since the Graham decision was handed down in 1969.

    The CCPA only controlled appeals from the PTO, which, of course, affected what claims would be allowed. When the issued patents were challenged by accused infringers, the appeals were decided by the regular Federal Circuit courts, which didn't follow the CCPA. In 1982, responding to complaints from patentees that the law was not uniformly applied the CAFC was formed by merging the CCPA with another court and was given exclusive appellate jurisdiction for all patent appeals, and they took their view of obviousness with them.

    Now, usually the SCOTUS is pursuaded to review areas of law where there is a diversion of opinions on the law among the various federal circuits; here, there is, by the exclusive CAFC jurisdiction only one, yet the case was selected for review. I haven't seen a transcript of the hearing; it is still possible that the CAFC's "suggestion/motivation" test will survive and this case will be decided narrowly on the facts of the case, but it looks like, even if they do survive it will be in a less severe form than has been.

    However, even if they strike down the CAFC's standard I don't think there will be a big impact on the quality of patents being issued, other factors being equal, since the main problem is the often that the prior art made of record is inadequate. Nevertheless, it would be easier to make sustainable rejections, since more prior art references will be available.

  30. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  31. And after 3 years of legal battles... by tubapro12 · · Score: 1

    ...the courts decide "buttons" are an "obvious" technological invention for reasons of practicality of booting computers. Macrosolid stocks plummet.

  32. The issue at hand. by StikyPad · · Score: 2, Informative

    Since I've seen plenty of articles on this, but none describing exactly what's at issue in this case, I did some searching and found this link to the Petitioner's Brief. [PDF Warning]

    Apparently, an old patent existed for adjustible gas pedals, such that the pedal could be moved to suit the size of the driver. Additionally a second patent existed for a gas pedal which was linked to an Electronically Controlled Throttle (ECT). Teleflex then apparently patented a brake pedal which used a combination of the two technologies, which is, I think, about as obvious as it gets, and then sued KSR Int'l for infringement.

    I also found this NYT article on the subject, which explains the case, and how such idiotic patents are allowed to stand.

    1. Re:The issue at hand. by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      Since I've seen plenty of articles on this, but none describing exactly what's at issue in this case, I did some searching and found this link to the Petitioner's Brief. [PDF Warning]

      Apparently, an old patent existed for adjustible gas pedals, such that the pedal could be moved to suit the size of the driver. Additionally a second patent existed for a gas pedal which was linked to an Electronically Controlled Throttle (ECT). Teleflex then apparently patented a brake pedal which used a combination of the two technologies, which is, I think, about as obvious as it gets, and then sued KSR Int'l for infringement.

      I also found this NYT article on the subject, which explains the case, and how such idiotic patents are allowed to stand.

      Actually the problem isn't that they patented their pedal and sued. The old ETC system had the sensor on the mobile portion of the pedal, and it had a tendency to wear out wires. The Teleflex pedal combined the adjustable pedal and the ETC system with the minor tweak of placing the sensor on the fixed portion of the pedal. OK, that's dandy, and covers sections 1-3 of the patent. The problem is that they added section 4 of the patent which is a claim on all systems using a sensor mounted on the stationary portion of the system.

      Teleflex isn't suing over the design of the pedal, they are suing over the concept of the design.

  33. The drugs like me by tepples · · Score: 1

    Without patents, how would the maker of a new drug recoup the cost of clinical trials to prove that the drug is safe and effective in humans?

    1. Re:The drugs like me by jZnat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      By not spending billions on marketing? I'm pretty sure pharmaceutical companies spend more on marketing (e.g. getting your doctors to recommend their new pill/injection/vaccine/cream) than R&D, but don't quote me on that.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    2. Re:The drugs like me by simong_oz · · Score: 1

      sorry, (very!) wrong. On average a drug costs around $600m and takes 7-12 years to get to the market (this includes drop off candidates along the way). If patents didn't exist to protect that investment (for a few years anyway) no pharma company would even dream of trying to develop drugs.

      --
      "Because it's there." - George Mallory, when asked why he wanted to climb Mt Everest, March 18, 1923 (New York Times)
    3. Re:The drugs like me by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure pharmaceutical companies spend more on marketing (e.g. getting your doctors to recommend their new pill/injection/vaccine/cream) than R&D, but don't quote me on that.

      Ok.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    4. Re:The drugs like me by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1
      As far as I remember, the ratio has been estimated at about 3:1 for marketing compared to research. That's hard to find data for (ie, Google didn't answer me inside a minute), though. (The $600 million estimate in another answer is off, BTW - it's supposed to be $1700 million, factoring in costs of failed drugs.)

      Personally, I've slowly changed my stance on the patent system from "It's slightly off" to "We should abolish it". I used to hold out for pharma, but I've come to the conclusion that the way the pharmaceutical side runs now is a big waste of resources, leading to lower quality care than you'd get if we used state-subsidised (ouch) research instead. My girlfriend, who is an MD, agrees with me.

      Eivind.

      --
      Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
    5. Re:The drugs like me by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      Most of the research is state-subsidised. The govt gives out hundreds of millions a year in research grants to the drug companies & to schools. The problem is that that money doesn't buy an interest in the final product. IIRC ~20-30% of US drug R&D money comes from the US govt, yet none of the drugs are public domain when developed. Nor is there any sort of financial return on that investment.

    6. Re:The drugs like me by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1
      I meant exclusively state-subsidized. Bad formulation from my side. (I generally like having the market involved in things, as it's usually a great optimizer, but the research side does not seem to work at all well.)

      Eivind.

      --
      Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
    7. Re:The drugs like me by balthan · · Score: 1

      How does Tylenol make money when generic acetametophin is available?

      People like name brands.

  34. Game Boy by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful
    A more non-obvious innovation would be to find a use for a wireless computer that doesn't involve e-mail.

    Amateur packet radio, 1981. Schumacher CAT radio-controlled car, 1986. Nintendo Game Boy compact video game system, 1989. A wireless replacement for the Game Boy's two-player link cable would have been the obvious idea.

  35. Sensors -- apparently not obvious to most here. by AJWM · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The sensor is at the bottom to detect anything on the ground that would interfere with the door coming down. If you move the sensor to the top, it is now useless

    Above there are a least a half-dozen posts saying the equivalent.

    The obvious-to-me solution is to set angled mirrors at the bottom so that the light path (breaking which trips the sensor on most garage doors I'm familiar with) is still at the bottom, but parts edible by raccoons (wires, plastic sensor housings, etc) are not.

    I'd patent that except that the fact that a half-dozen slashdot posters can't figure it out is no indication of non-obviousness.

    (And yes, lining it all up is tricky, but there are gadgets for helping line up optical systems that go back to homebuilt gas lasers (mid 1960s) and amateur telescopes (hundreds of years?).

    --
    -- Alastair
  36. That's it! by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

    I have had it with these mother-fucking dupes on this mother-fucking Slashdot!

  37. Has to be said by bmo · · Score: 2, Funny

    I for one welcome our lower hinge sensor eating raccoon overlords.

    --
    BMO

    1. Re:Has to be said by pbrooks100 · · Score: 1

      Mmmmm. Sensors....... (Copyrighted, Trademarked and Patented by Homer Simpson)

    2. Re:Has to be said by ccp · · Score: 1
      Thousands of would-be Slashdot readers are so so so so SO SO SO incredibly fucking sick of the "I for one welcome our joke-which-was-only-the-very-slightest-bit-humorou s-in-its-original-form bludgenoning-the-living-shit-out-of overlords" redundant unfunny shitposts that we just grimace and go read the New York Times instead

      Just to be fair, also state the downside. It looks like you win, we win.

      Cheers,
      CC
  38. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by Brightest+Light · · Score: 1

    As somebody who has to see those things every $^&# day on the feet of dumb Sorority girls, I think I can safely say that Australia can have them back. They're called ugg boots 'cause every time I see somebody wearing them, my inner gay man goes "ugh!".

  39. Good idea by Dog135 · · Score: 1

    Good idea, you should patent it.

    --
    "That's so plausible, I can't believe it!" - Leela
  40. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 1

    BTW, patents are public record -- they are all publicly available on the USPTO website.

    However, this requires a large amount of vigilance. There are tens of thousands of patents, and they're all pretty vague and legalese. Additionally, it's hard to get a crap patent thrown out.

    Personally, I'm starting to think that the fact that there are so many patents that we can't effective dredge through them is the problem.

  41. Four points concerning patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) What effort, money and timewise, was spent into creating said patentable implementation. Why should someone else be barred, or have to pay arbitrary royalties, to someone who maybe didn't even spend a dime on research and just came up with a clever idea first? Those who think every clever idea should be rewarded with a patent, obviously doesn't have many ideas themselves.. If I had patented all my ideas over the years, I would be stupidly rich, but I don't think that would've been fair to the people actually doing the work of assembling, packaging and marketing their products.

    2) Originally from the patent-laws, patent applications should be tested for obviousness. But nobody has actually done that! Patent-offices are granting patents over a low shoe, or finally grants patents which previously has been rejected tens of times, by a persisting patent-seeker. When you actually look for tests on obviousness, it becomes obvious they either have to allow everything, or should just eliminate the whole patent system. It's impossible, impractical and wasteful to go to court over patents, and tests for obviousness will diffuse the law and clog the economic system even more in favour of huge corporations. Who has the lawyers and time to spend shifting through thousands of unreadable patents these days, and for each one determine danger factor concerning every X implementation you use? X times thousands amounts to a pretty hard non-automatable computing problem in itself. In the US, if you even do this, and still use a patent without paying royalties, you're even punished by having to pay triple damages.

    3) In Software Patents, or patents where some sort of "calculation device" is included: Where is the line between idea and implementation? How do you distinguish between the very idea, and the implementation, which is already protected by copyright laws? How is it that algorithms are not patentable, but "calculation devices" working out such algorithms are, even though their physical implementation might be very different. Can you see the trickery in this way of bypassing the ban on patents on algorithms?
    If implementations are to be patented, and not the idea, we should reverse the requirement: There should for every granted patent application be possible with other implementations covering the same idea, so that the idea remains free.

    4) Instead of asking why not patents, you should be asking WHY patents? To further science and progress in society? It is actually hindering science and progress by leaps and bounds. Many researchers are afraid to touch stuff that might be patented, and it presents an artificial barrier to a huge chunk of society. Many businesses can't afford to enter a heavy patented market, because the big global guys got a patent-folio, and they're not. Think why the personal computers got so popular by everybody: Low barrier of entry. Or if everybody had to pay for Linux from day #1: Nothing much would happen then.

    Those with technical clue see how silly the patent system is, with its unreadable junk that lays a minefield in their field of technical expertise. It's like something from a few centuries ago, from the dark ages, and it is. It's time to rethink the whole system, or get rid of it completely IMHO.

    Only lawyers and IP-corporations gets wealthy on patents, the rest of society gets screwed. Picture a toolbooth on every road-junction, this is what patents, and especially software patents are actually doing to society and over time matters will only worsen if left unadressed.

  42. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1

    BTW, patents are public record -- they are all publicly available on the USPTO website.

    Yes, and looking at that site to find if you cross a patent is dangerous, because there's a tendency to interpret problems as "willful infringment" if you do, and that gives triple damages (I don't know if that's exact or approximate.)

    Eivind.

    --
    Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
  43. Maybe we should look at how the Europe does this by cyclonite · · Score: 2, Informative

    You've just described how the European Patent Office works. In fact, there is even an additional period where, after the examing board finds your patent to be valid, your competitors can file an opposition brief and show up to provide counter-evidence to a board with a scientific/engineering background in the general area. I've done it, and it was night and day compared to dealing with the US examiners I've had to deal with.

    We have modified the patent system in the recent past, we finally did away with "first to invent", and went to "first to file" like the Europeans, so maybe there is hope.

  44. "In hindsight" by TheLink · · Score: 1

    To those who say "in hindsight everybody will say they could have thought of that", I disagree - the MASER was nonobvious when it was first thought of.

    But the LASER is obvious to anyone knowing of the MASER.

    As for in between - whether heatpipes were obvious or not I'm not sure. Let experts in that field decide.

    Douglas Engelbart and team came up with plenty of things that were pretty innovative even though they built on stuff other people thought of.

    I say that because it took 20 years before people reinvented _some_ of that stuff, AND even today the 1968 Demo remains impressive to "experts in the field".

    The really nonobvious and innovative ideas take > $patent_expiry_period years for the masses to figure out that it's useful ;).

    Pity the caveman who thought of a steam powered automobile, after others invented fire and boiling water...

    --
  45. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by kocsonya · · Score: 1

    > What is a "submarine patent troll?" The 1995 Amendments to the patent laws pretty much ended the endless
    > continuation practice that Lemelson, the original "submarine patent guy" used to his advantage.

    Apparently for example Rambus managed to pull it through... You don't need endless continuation in the high-tech business. You can get a patent for how many, maybe 20 years? The whole PC business is around that old! A patent on floppy storage wouldn't be worth much today but it was a big deal 10 years ago. If you happen to know that there is some development on foobar then you create a BS patent and wait. If foobar hits the market in the next few years, you wait maybe a year more until it is well established, with multiple, preferably large sources and then emerge from the shadows and sue. If foobar doesn't quite become a hit, well, you just write it off, it was a lost investment. If you can generate enough BS patents, you can get by this business model (as some "intellectual property portfolio" companies do).

    > BTW, patents are public record -- they are all publicly available on the USPTO website.
    > Should a patent holder have to go out and notify any potential infringers before they begin developing a product?

    On the same token, do you expect every balding man to check the USPTO website before combing in the morning to see if their way of combing their hair over the bald spot violates a patent or not? (Yes, there is/was a US patent on the way combing your hair over a bald spot to hide it, although I think it expired a year or two ago).

  46. Patents are anti-competitive by Yfrwlf · · Score: 1

    The argument for patents is always that they will foster innovation. I propose that the U.S. would be much farther ahead technologically if it had no restrictions on ideas. Companies would come up with new ideas by paying inventors/scientists/researchers to tackle a problem. Several companies could pay one research group because it would be more beneficial that way since the idea would help all of them. Instead we live in fear of lawsuits and we don't have the freedom to actually USE ideas for 20 years at time. The more people there are in the world, the more patent laws need to be pushed back or done away with completely because the more it holds back people from being able to invent, use ideas, and build upon them, and the more "obvious" ideas are going to be because there's more people putting 1 + 2 together. Thank you U.S. for restricting the advancement of technology and helping to create a small handful of selfish people that monopolize the marketplace, stifle innovation, and have way too much money. If the government wanted to come half way to a solution it could charge a small invention tax in order to reward that random inventor, but giving them an absolute monopoly on the idea is insane and unfair and only hinders society.

    --
    Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
  47. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by ded_guy · · Score: 1

    But you're not bitter about it or anything.

    --
    In the future, all spacecraft will be made of cheese.
  48. Re:Because of Submarine patent trolls by virtual_mps · · Score: 1
    BTW, patents are public record -- they are all publicly available on the USPTO website. Should a patent holder have to go out and notify any potential infringers before they begin developing a product?

    That would be at least as feasable as the current system. "Publicly available" and "usefully available" are different. How's this: I'd like to write an application to keep track of my photos. I'll scan them in, add descriptive keywords, make use of metadata like timestamps. I'll put the application on my server, and access it via a web browser. Can you use the wonderful patent public record to tell me what patents my idea might infringe on? Can you use the wonderful patent system to show me implementations that might help me do what I want (the original purpose of the patent system)? If not, the system isn't working.
  49. Bogan boots. by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

    In Australia people who wear ugg boots are known as Bogans, for some reason the rest of the planet wants to look like bogons and are willing to pay a fortune for our ugg boots, 'ceptin some damm yankee trademarked the name!

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  50. Experts on "obviousness"? by queequeg1 · · Score: 1

    As the numerous posts suggest, how to determine if something is obvious is difficult. As the transcript of the argument shows, you need a lot of experts to determine if something is obvious. And just who do you get to give expert testimony of an invention's obviousness?

    See lines 17-21 on page 49 of this transcript of the argument. It seems like Chief Justice Roberts is a bit of a smart ass.

  51. Intermittent Windshield Wipers comes to mind... by garylian · · Score: 1

    There shouldn't be a patent for any specific pattern of 4 screws on a piece of material yet that is what the case is about. Interesting phrasing, but I think you are oversimplifing things in a broad spectrum generic statement.

    What about the story of the intermittent windshield wiper, by Robert Kearns? He had several patents for having the wipers pause between sweeps back in 1967. Everything he used (pretty much) was available already. But in all the years since winshield wipers were in use (at least here in the US, most cars had them by 1916), NOBODY else thought to:

    A) have the idea, and

    B) make it work.

    So, he patents it, and no car company will buy it. He ends up having to sue Ford (1978) and Chrysler (1982) for installing the systems on their cars. Ford's arguement was that there was nothing NEW about what he did, because all the parts were already in existence. Ford was found to have "unintentionally infringed" on Kearn's patent. Chrysler, too.

    The fact that having the ability to have the wipers pause between sweeps is blantantly obvious if you think about it, and yet a patent was awarded. I don't even have to be an engineer to think "Man, I really hate having my wipers moving on the slow setting for this slight rain." But nobody else came up with the idea and made it work for about 50 YEARS! Yep, that DESERVES a patent.

    The courts never said the auto companies had to stop using it, so Kearns was deprived of the ability to be the sole manufacturer as he so wished. And by the time he finally started to win some cases, he had too many of them on his plate, so the cases were thrown out for lack of attention by Kearns and his multitude of lawyers. Only Ford and Chrysler had to pay him in the long run. And then his patent ran out after 17 years, and it was done.

    Kearns is one of the most famous cases in patent law, where the little guy won. But the truth of the matter is, he barely won, and not much in the grand scheme of things.
  52. Please validate this invention, than by dallaylaen · · Score: 1

    I think the proposed idea about measuring obviousness is good, however, I'm wondering what implications would it have.

    Let's test it.

    Think about "a method and apparatus to carry heavy goods with little force over level ground". Everyone who has once seen the solution would scream that it's obvious. But it's nearly uninventable with hindsight off.

    So, should this invention have been patented?

    --
    WYSIWIG, but what you see might not be what you need
  53. Patentism by ate50eggs · · Score: 1

    I can't give you credit for making up that word. It was obvious.

    --
    not everything is a science experiment!
  54. Consumer hostile patents by tschodt · · Score: 1

    Does this mean some annoying patent possibly held by Fentek Industries (who only make US layout keyboards) will be repealed so Cherry can resume their manufacture of the ErgoPlus G80-5000 (which used to come in all typical layouts) - without having to pass patent extortion on to the consumer.

  55. Roberts Head on his Shoulder by leabre · · Score: 1

    Favorite quote from the NYT article:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/29/business/29bizco urt.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

    When Mr. Goldstein noted that "every single major patent bar association in the country has filed on our side," the chief justice interjected: "Well, which way does that cut? That just indicates that this is profitable for the patent bar." And when Mr. Goldstein referred to experts who had testified that the Teleflex patent was not obvious, the chief justice asked: "Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? I mean, the least insightful person you can find?"

    Chief Justice Roberts made the comments with a smile, and the courtroom audience responded with laughter. Mr. Goldstein, an experienced Supreme Court advocate, was unfazed at finding himself the straight man in a courtroom comedy. He kept returning to his theme, which was that the Federal Circuit's test, properly understood, served the function of focusing the inquiry.

    Thanks,
    Leabre

  56. Back then, less regulation applied. by tepples · · Score: 1

    Tylenol was introduced before Congress and the FDA required clinical trials to establish the safety and effectiveness of new chemicals before they can be marketed. Brand recognition may have been enough back then.

  57. A portable device for email was obvious in 1991! by hadaso · · Score: 1

    > Was a portable device for email "bloody fucking obvious" in 1991?

    Of course it was! Email travels on a higher level networking level and the kind of networking hardware in the lower level is irrelevant. It was obvious in 1991 that email can be used on any device that can be programmed and has a networking hardware component, and that is connected (not necessarilly all or most of the time) to a network. And it was obvious that mobile devices can be connected to a network. Does the the creation of a new technology for hardware connection necessiate clearing legal rights for using all kinds of protocols that can use the networking layers above it?

    Anyway, I saw a working "portable device for email" in 1984. It was in the Israeli army. We had this sort of messaging system that could be used to send messages (with a subject line and list of recipients) to other users of other computers in the network. I don't know if the network was based on IP or if the transfer protocol was something like SMTP, but it really doesn't matter. It was an email system. It connected users on different kinds of devices (some used IBM-370 systems. SOme used VAX. I don't know every node of that network but there were CDC computers in some units so they probably also had access). Anyway, to the point: we had this drill that simulated a terrorist attack and one of the things I saw there was a mobile terminal of this system. So perhaps the device was not something you could fit in a pocket. But it was mobile, it used a wireless connection, and it provided email access in the mobile device (the device was probably a minicomputer+radio-telephone+generator on a 6x6 military truck, but I think this should not be relevant in determining that there were actual systems providing email access on a mobile device that predated 1991 by at least 7 years).

  58. Why "99%" of patents should be invalid by hadaso · · Score: 1

    The answer to the question "why do you believe 99% of of patents should not be valid?" is very simple: because there are too many of them!

    The way the patent system was supposed to work and the way it did work many many many years ago when patent law were "invented" was that a reasonable number of patents were granted, where reasonable means that a developer in a field could invest reasonable time and keep current with new patents in her field. Can anybody do it nowadays with millions of patents written in a legal language developers don't use?

    The name "patent" has some significance. Published patent grants should be seen by whoever work in the relevant field. The quantity and the quality of published patents in some fields today make patents irrelevant reading to developers. The fact that there's a relevant patent becomes known after the fact, and patents lose their aim of increasing human knowledge, as they are not worth the developer's time to read. So there's no benefit to society from the patents (not all of them!) so society has no real interest in granting them.

    Criteria and duration of patents should be made so that the numer of granted patents per field is reasonable and the duration of patents is comparable to the rate of progress in each field. We are not in the 18th century anymore!