Sony Adds PS3 Support to Linux Kernel

mu22le writes "A few Sony patches to the Linux kernel have just been merged in the mainline tree, to be included in the 2.6.20 release. The patches add 'core platform support for the PS3 game console and other devices using the PS3 hypervisor.'" From the Linux Devices article: "Linux gained generic support for the Cell processor, on which the PS3 is based, with the 2.6.13 release in June of 2005. The new Sony-contributed patches to the 2.6.20 kernel appear to add machine-specific support for technology such as the PS3's memory architecture, DMA (direct memory access) model, and SMP (symmetric multiprocessing) model. A Yellow Dog Linux (YDL) distribution has been available for the PS3 since October, thanks to a development deal between Sony and YDL publisher TerraSoft. However, YDL so far has not been bundled with early PS3 shipments, despite earlier indications from Sony Entertainment's CEO, Ken Kuturagi."

Comments

At the moment

[joshetc]

At the moment this is the only reason I would even consider buying a PS3 sometime in the future. It is really great to see them supporting the Linux community by making porting to their console much easier...

Re:At the moment

[Anonymous Coward]

This and Metal Gear Solid 4. :-)

Re:At the moment

[Anonymous Coward]

And what exactly are you going to do with Linux on a PS3? You might as well run Linux on an obsolete Intel processor, which is much cheaper and better supported. You don't think you're going to be able to fully use the hardware on the PS3 without an official dev kit, do you?

Glass

Re:At the moment

[brenddie]

Lets just hope that it doesnt go the way of the PS2 and once they get done evading whatever taxes game consoles have over PCs and abandon support for linux. At least this time the hardware is interesting enough to keep people working/hacking the console.

Re:At the moment

[hawkbug]

Actually, from the rumors I have heard, you're supposed to be able to do quite a bit in terms of development with the PS3 off the shelf. I think that was one of the more radical improvements this time around, but I could be wrong of course.

Re:At the moment

[fistfullast33l]

On top of this, IGN did a review of the Linux rollout Main takeaways:

• The graphics chip is not supported at the moment, and neither is 3D graphics. IGN reports that one half of the system's memory isn't visible. This makes sense since the 512MB is split between the video and the processor.
• The system runs pretty smoothly. Startup for Firefox was about 5 seconds, which sounds normal to me on my P4 3ghz running E17.
• Screenshots include the E17 desktop, which looks fairly complete. No word on what modules are supported for E17, but remember it's in active development and just recently overhauled the entire module system, including adding the shelf.
• You can only install Linux in one of two configurations - a 50/10 split on the 60gb drive. So you either give most of your space to linux or to the PS3 for games and media, but you can't split it 30/30 or any other way.
• Unlike a comment below, IGN reports that the Wireless card is supported, but not automatically detected. You'll have to choose the driver manually apparently.
• Firefox, Thunderbird, Gaim, the GIMP, and OO.o are included. Flash is not since it doesn't exist for the Cell processor yet.
• Titan, which I've never heard of, is the default media player but has no plugins available. You have to download them on your own.
  
  
  Seems like a nice rollout, but I don't like the hard drive allocation. It'd be nice if you could just install the OS's side by side and let them share media across. I hope you can do that.

Re:At the moment

[tepples]

You don't think you're going to be able to fully use the hardware on the PS3 without an official dev kit, do you?

It's not a question of fully using the hardware but a question of having any hardware to use at all. Which other platform allows independent game developers to develop and distribute games designed for use with a large (25" and up) screen and two to four controllers? HTPC?

Re:At the moment

[CronoCloud]

It was YABASIC in Europe that was included with PS2s to evade the tax, which doesn't exist anymore. The Linux kit for the PS2 or Linux for the PS3 have nothing to do with that. I don't know why that urban legend keeps showing up.

You did know that the official PS2 Linux sit is still up and running, they didn't abandon support, they just sold all the kits.

Re:At the moment

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like a nice rollout, but I don't like the hard drive allocation. It'd be nice if you could just install the OS's side by side and let them share media across. I hope you can do that.

Are you kidding? The PS3 Gaming OS will never touch anything from the icky 'other-os'. Maybe if you wanted to be able to play your own MP3s for your favorite racing game, there will be a mechanism to upload those to your other partition... but a game will never ever read it directly.

And anyway, you can upgrade to whatever size hard drive you want if the partition size is a problem.

Re:At the moment

[flynn_nrg]

The C64 is very well documented.

Re:At the moment

[drinkypoo]

Which other platform allows independent game developers to develop and distribute games designed for use with a large (25" and up) screen and two to four controllers? HTPC?

Just the Xbox 360.

Or, you know, any PC. It's not like you can't get TV-out. You can connect as many controllers as you like, too. You could use a mac. etc etc.

Re:At the moment

[poot_rootbeer]

Which other platform allows independent game developers to develop and distribute games designed for use with a large (25" and up) screen and two to four controllers?

Well, Xbox Live Arcade and Nintendo Virtual Console, for two...

Thumbs up

[snoyberg]

Big thumbs up for Sony on this one.

What is the point

[HappySqurriel]

Beyond the geek factor, what is the point of Linux on the PS3?

Does it do anything that you couldn't do with a much less expensive PC that you can install Linux on? I just don't get it ...

Re:What is the point

[snoyberg]

Doesn't the Cell perform some scientific calculations very well? Sounds like a motivation to me. Also, for those so inclined you could theoretically utilize the extra processing power of your PS3 from your Linux box through clustering.

Re:What is the point

[joshetc]

$600 isnt a bad price for a high end media PC.

Plus it can play games and bluray media.

In a way I agree with you though, if I wound up buying one itd probably be after the cost goes down a bit..

Re:What is the point

[Extremist]

It's small, it's sexy looking, all ready to hook up to your TV, and has ethernet for doing networking (LAN and broadband). That's much better for a family PC in the living room than the standard LCD/desktop eyesore. Don't get me wrong, I prefer good, powerful workstations, but I have to admit my wife is right here... they look ugly amidst the living room furniture.

We only run linux in our house, though, so YMMV on the usefulness of linux on a Playstation.

Re:What is the point

[Enoxice]

Are you imploring us to imagine a Beowulf cluster of PS3s? Intriguing...

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Even the best high-end media PC is useless without proper graphics drivers. There's no sign that nvidia puts out some drivers for the RSX in the PS3, yet.

Re:What is the point

[joshetc]

Even the best high-end media PC is useless without proper graphics drivers. There's no sign that nvidia puts out some drivers for the RSX in the PS3, yet.

Thats a really good point. Sony supporting PS3 could push nvidia to develop drivers for it which might wind up benefiting even us non-ps3 linux users.

Re:What is the point

[king-manic]

A cell procesor computer for a grand with a decent GPU and insane memory bandwidth. It's got a few niches (poverty stricken research labs comes ot mind).

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

you mean like read blu-ray disks and output in HD? Plus it's got a small form factor

Re:What is the point

[Oddscurity]

Indeed, theoretically it's a more than decent platform for F@H, et al.

Re:What is the point

[mrchaotica]

Of course, unless those drivers are Free Software nobody (including Yellow Dog or even Sony itself) will be allowed to distribute them with the kernel. You'd have to install Linux first and then go download the drivers from nVidia.

Re:What is the point

[HappySqurriel]

$600 isnt a bad price for a high end media PC.

Plus it can play games and bluray media.

In a way I agree with you though, if I wound up buying one itd probably be after the cost goes down a bit..

But can it burn CDs/DVDs?
Can you install any OS besides linux on it?
Does it have a PS/2 Keybord/mouse port or a printer port?

These may not seem like big things, but they're just to demonstrate that you're probably going to spend more money on a PS3 and (as a PC) it will function on a much worse level.

Re:What is the point

[xero314]

As I software developer with out a license to an existing Dev Kit or The money to set up a Cell Based server (the only other Cell development options) I could see the use in it as a learning tool. Oh plus it plays 3 generation on Console games, DVDs, CDs and BluRay disks, etc...

Re:What is the point

[Shai-kun]

...and bluray media.

At first I read that as a misspelling of 'blurry media'. Ha!

Re:What is the point

[Osty]

$600 isnt a bad price for a high end media PC.

What "high end" media PC has 256MB of shared memory? Low-end non-media PCs have 512MB of RAM (shared with the video card) these days. Even the Xbox 360 has 512MB of shared memory. A high-end media PC is more likely to have 1GB+ of system RAM and a video card with its own dedicated RAM. Multi-purpose machines need more RAM. Game consoles don't need as much because they have control over what they do with the RAM (few or no other processes running, access to the underlying hardware, etc).

Re:What is the point

[poot_rootbeer]

Does it have a PS/2 Keybord/mouse port or a printer port?

Did it become 1998 again when I wasn't looking?

Here in the futuristic year of 2006, we use USB to attach keyboards, mouses, and printers to our computers.

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

modern USB keyboard/mouse/printer/external burner ftw.

usb mice and keyboards aren't any more expensive than ps/2 verions, and are far easier to find now. I think it's almost impossible to buy a new printer that doesn't have either usb or networking support. The only thing that would really take a hit is the external burner, but they aren't THAT slow or expensive.

And no, you can't install windows or macOS on it, but why would you want to? The main markets for the linux support are poor reasearch labs, tinkerers, and people who want a computer controlled media center. Linux works fine for all 3.

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're talking about that nvidia might release a free driver, I don't think so. Even though the nvidia linux support is the best of all the graphic chip makers they always said that's impossible for them to make any free drivers because of different reason (most, I think, are bogus). Somebody else has to step up and either provide free drivers and/or the specs of their cards. It doesn't look AMD is going this route and Intel doesn't make high-end gfx chips (..yet. There were some "rumors".).
Also afaik the BR drive didn't work on Fedora (at least), the hardrive is kind of small for multimedia stuff (but it's dead easy to replace it with a bigger, let's say 500gig, one) and there just isn't enough RAM.
If they'd have put at least a gig of RAM in the PS3 and had support for every piece of hardware in their console I gladly would have shelled out a 600+ bucks for one and be using it as a computer right now.
Maybe it'll be like that with the next Playstation.

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

> But can it burn CDs/DVDs?
If you have an external USB CD/DVD burner, then probbably yes.

> Can you install any OS besides linux on it?
Well you could install any OS you want on it, as long as it supports the PS3. So far only Linux does. I wouldn't be surprised if a BSD did soon too.

> Does it have a PS/2 Keybord/mouse port or a printer port?
Again, it has USB. Most keybords, mice and priters use that now.

Re:What is the point

[AuMatar]

You do. I'm not wasteful like that. USB is a high overhead protocol thats wasteful of CPU time for something as straightforward as a mouse or keyboard. Why spend 4 times the time you have to in a USB interrupt instead of a quick PS/2 one? On top of that, it causes 2 single points of failure (USB circuit shorts? Now everything is broken, its a shared bus. With PS/2, only your printer breaks)- the hardware and the drivers. I prefer having my mouse and keyboard use an easier to code, unchanging, decade old interface so that if something goes wrong with USB my computer is usable.

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

As soon as nvidia releases their PS3 drivers the RSX probably get its dedicated xdr dram or they share it all like the xbox360 does.. wait.. you can't install any OS on the xbox360.. no reason to bring up the xbox360 then..

Re:What is the point

[carlmenezes]

The multiple cores of the cell processor seem like a good place for stuff like video/audio encoding/decoding. Hehe...how about throw some good speech recognition engine in there just for kicks to see how good it is at making subtitles from your home video camera? :) Heck, go even one step further and throw in some face recognition on each frame...ok i'm dreaming...time to get back to work.

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a life.

Re:What is the point

[donaldm]

No but you can backup to any USB, bluetooth or wifi device be it a hard drive or CD/DVD/Bluray burner. can't see HD-DVD supported but it is feasable.

At the moment no, but I think we will see a BSD port, however I cannot see this happening with any proprietary OS. Still Microsoft and Apple may allow this, after all you do have to pay them for this proposed port, but I would not hold my breath.

No but you can use a USB or even bluetooth keyboard and mouse or a printer. In fact having a wireless keyboard/mouse plus printer would make this a very functional living room computer. The biggest problem is going to be your screen which should be a minimum of 720p (of course 1080p is much better but more expensive).

Of course if you want to use your old PC equipment then you may be disappointed.

Re:What is the point

[Osty]

you can't install any OS on the xbox360.. no reason to bring up the xbox360 then..

I mentioned the Xbox 360 simply because it's PS3's console competitor and to illuminate how much 256MB of RAM sucks. The PS3 has the convoluted-but-apparently-powerful Cell, nVidia's powerful RSX chip, a built-in hard drive, etc but it's hamstrung by its lack of RAM. We'll have to see how it plays out, but I suspect that it will take developers quite a bit longer to really leverage the PS3's power due to that single limitation.

Oh, yeah, though you can't install other operating systems on an Xbox 360, it works as a functional media PC by itself, and is a near-perfect front-end for a separate media center PC (if only it could play DivX/Xvid natively ...). So it does somewhat fit into the category of "inexpensive high-end media PC", if only tangentially.

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus, by your reasoning we should go back to punch cards, as it's a completely mechanical storage system that isn't affected by magnetic fields. God knows we have tons of those around us, just waiting to pounce on our precious information. Yes sir, by going with punch cards, we can sleep easy knowing that our data is safe. Of course, we'd have to make them out of polymer sheets, as the paper ones were prone to tearing.

On a more serious note, when's the last time you had a USB bus failure? I've had processor, motherboard and hard disk failures, but never the USB bus _alone_.

Re:What is the point

[Total_Wimp]

On the other hand, your new Linux box can function as a full-featured PS3.

You can go back and forth, but the bottom line is that some of the core PS3 funtionality should have some value to you if you want to get your money's worth out of it. If you don't care about BluRay or games, then you're 100% correct, you should look elseware for your next Linux box. But if you really want to play Motor Storm, getting a "free" Linux box with the deal could be a nice bonus.

TW

Re:What is the point

[Drooling Iguana]

That was the N64.

Re:What is the point

[badboy_tw2002]

So do you really work out a monthly budget for your computer time? Is everyone in the house timesharing it at their own dumb-terminals? What if someone wants to run a GUI, are the cycles just not there for something else?

And you know you don't code at the hardware level for your PS/2 ports. Stop lying.

Re:What is the point

[smash]

I'll bet you ran and stuck your head in the sand when it came time to learn protected mode x86, too.

If your PS2 port breaks, you're fucked (no keyboard). If your USB port breaks, you've got another one.

The cpu usage is a non-issue. It may be "wasteful" but seriously, there's far more serious problems to solve than cutting down your keyboard's utilisation down from 0.01% of a single cpu - you can cut that time down by 99% and its still no real gain.

I'm all for optimisation, but seriously...

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

But you are aware that the PS3 has a total of 512MB RAM (256MB XDR Main RAM + 256MB GDDR3 VRAM ), yes?
Maybe Linux will be able to access all of the RAM somehow soon (nvidia drivers?!)...

I'm posting this from a 1.3ghz debian unstable box (running the latest KDE) with 256MB of RAM. It certainly does not suck. It's enough for MOST things.

:-)

Re:What is the point

[Quarters]

I prefer having my mouse and keyboard use an easier to code, unchanging, decade old interface

Ah, so you do like to use USB, which was first released in Jan of 1996. PS/2 ports, on the other hand, have been around since the PS/2 computer was introduced--circa 1987 or so.

Re:What is the point

[aichpvee]

Why would you want to install another OS? It's kind of wasteful to run BSD on it. You don't need 380 watts to run a firewall.

Re:What is the point

[GrizlyAdams]

AFAIK, the restriction on distribution comes from nvidia's camp, not from the GPL. Since the nvidia modules are linked against the installed kernel at install, the end-user is the only one with binaries linked against stubs for GPL code.

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.ht ml

Re:What is the point

[CronoCloud]

No no no, it's 256 main RAM, 256 graphics RAM.

main RAM isn't shared.

Re:What is the point

[CronoCloud]

Your RAM would go even further using fluxbox, XFCE or even the e17 Yellow Dog 5.0 uses. :-)

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

After boot-up I end up in KDE with a memory consumption of ~65MB. That's just good enough for me. Also I'm doing some KDE/Qt development, so it's just more convenient for me to run KDE. :-)

But I'm setting up an old comp with a 400Mhz celeron and 64MB RAM (its main purpose will be web browsing). I installed e17 and firefox and it actually works pretty well so far.

Re:What is the point

[Megane]

The point is that if they can claim that it is a "computer", there are much lower import taxes for selling it in Europe. That's why they had a PS2 Linux too, and I think I can vaguely recall hearing about some sort of BASIC for the PS1. The difference is that this one doesn't seem to require a disk that can go out of print on Sony's whim.

Re:What is the point

[Megane]

Oh plus it plays 3 generation on Console games, DVDs, CDs and BluRay disks, etc...

But can it play those games while you're using it as a "Cell Based server"? Dual-boot seems cool... until you want to run a server.

Re:What is the point

[mrchaotica]

IANAL, but I've read about this a lot and I think I understand it well.

The software in question is divided into three parts: the Linux kernel itself, the open-source stub written by nvidia, and the binary nvidia driver. The first is licensed under the GPL, and the other two are licensed under the nvidia software license. However, there is one part of that license that only applies to the stub, not the binary:

2.1.2 Linux/FreeBSD Exception. Notwithstanding the foregoing terms of Section 2.1.1, SOFTWARE designed exclusively for use on the Linux or FreeBSD operating systems, or other operating systems derived from the source code to these operating systems, may be copied and redistributed, provided that the binary files thereof are not modified in any way (except for unzipping of compressed files).

So, here's the theory (from nvidia's perspective): the binary part is not a derivative work of the Linux kernel; it's a derivative work of the Windows nvidia driver. The open-source stub is a derivative work of the kernel, but that's okay because it's redistributable (again, according to nvidia). In other words, only distributing the stub as open source satisfies the GPL.

Now, here's the catch: once you compile the kernel and the stub together the end result is a derivative work of the kernel, but not entirely GPL, so you're not allowed to redistribute it (does it seem like I contradicted myself? It should...). And the binary part still isn't a derivative work of the kernel because it's linked in at runtime in a similar way that a userspace program would link in to make system calls.

Now, here's the other perspective: some people say that having redistribution rights to that stub isn't good enough, that it must be GPL (or better*). This makes perfect sense to me, because the clause I quoted obviously fails to preserve the "four freedoms" that the GPL requires. So, let's imagine that nvidia distributed the stub as GPL, to make it legal. Then what? Well, since the stub is also part of the nvidia driver, it would then have to be GPL too because otherwise you'd have GPL code being a derivative work of non-GPL code, which the GPL doesn't allow. In other words -- unless I'm mistaken -- you can't make a closed-source extension to GPL code (which is obvious) but you also can't make a GPL'd extension to closed code unless you write an exception to the license. And nvidia can't write an exception because the Linux kernel doesn't have one. Therefore, distribution of the nvidia driver by anyone whatsoever (including nvidia) violates the GPL, even if the kernel itself isn't distributed along with it (because of the definition of "derivative work").

So, here's the bottom line: it may or may not be illegal to distribute the nvidia code by itself, and it's certainly illegal to distribute it linked with the kernel. Either way, though, it's the GPL (and/or copyright law) that causes it to be so, regardless of nvidia's license (unless it were to become genuinely GPL-compatible).

Hmm... you know what? After writing that, I'm less certain that I understand it. Oh well... : \

(*i.e., less restrictive -- like the BSD or MIT license)

Re:What is the point

[xero314]

But can it play those games while you're using it as a "Cell Based server"?

Probably not, but you can get a couple of them for less than a Cell based server setup (and all it requires) so I still think it's a decent idea.

Re:What is the point

[CronoCloud]

Again with the tax myth. Linux for the PS2 or PS3 had nothing to do with that tax, which was a Europe only thing. The tax doesn't exist anymore.

SCEfoo is supporting Linux because they want to.

Re:What is the point

[DrEldarion]

Actually (ignoring current ebay-price-gouging), a grand will get you two of the 20GB models.

Re:What is the point

[moranar]

If your PS2 port breaks, you're fucked (no keyboard). If your USB port breaks, you've got another one.

Well, If "you've got another USB port in the case your other port breaks", then you could buy a USB keyboard in the (unlikely, IMHO) case your PS2 port broke, and attach the keyboard.

Re:What is the point

[IrquiM]

You're using WinME still, aren't you?

I've never had any of those failures you mention, and I've also had support responsibility for over 700 win2k pc's

And, oh yeah - it works on linux too

Re:What is the point

[Wizard Drongo]

Exactly. My computer doesn't have any 'legacy' (read: useless) connections. It has firewire (for digital devices like dv cameras, and for point-point networking), USB 2.0 (for everything else, keyboards, mice, glowing christmas trees, you name it. Bit slow compared to firewire mind.), gigabit ethernet (networking over a wire!), wi-fi (cause networking over a wire is soo 2001), bluetooth (for sending porn my pals send me from my phone to my 21-inch external monitor) and a display adaptor (it is a laptop, after all. But it's a mini-dvi, not some ugly as hell chunky vga job) Now, bear in mind I'm a mac user, but my current machine (13.3" macbook) has the above, and nothing else. Does me fine. So did my last machine, a 12" iBook. Before that an eMac. Last machine I had that had legacy crap was purchased in 1999. Never used any of the legacy ports once. Had to buy a USB hub though since it only came with two. Handy that my apple keyboard now has two ports on the back of it. See? That's good thinking. Why the hell any pc manufacturer still includes that legacy port pish I don't know. Just makes the machine look ugly and confuses newbies.

Re:What is the point

[NekoXP]

There's no reason why Terra Soft couldn't put the nVidia binary DRM driver in the initrd and put it on the Cell YDL CD for X. YOU can't do it as a nobody without a license from nVidia, but we are talking about a professional Linux distributio[nr] here who obviously has some vested interest, support from Sony and IBM, to get this done.

Good luck getting it into Debian, of course, but also I reckon Gentoo is fairly immune as you would be leeching the drivers from a package repository/nVidia's homepage anyway.

Re:What is the point

[KDR_11k]

From what I heard the SPUs use low precision for floating point operations which makes them useless for many scientific applications.

Re:What is the point

[KDR_11k]

otherwise you'd have GPL code being a derivative work of non-GPL code, which the GPL doesn't allow.

Since NVidia is the copyright holder they can make any derivative works they want and license them under any license they feel like. If the GPL can't be applied to it they could wrap it in BSD or some other license that's considered compatible.

Re:What is the point

[Andy_R]

For a lot of people, the point is the Cell chip. It's related to the PowerPC line of cpus that Apple recently dropped, making it somewhere fairly comfortable for Apple coders who don't fancy going over to x86, anyone who doesn't like the idea of coding for x86's archtecture, or anyone who buys into the Cell Alliance hype that these chips will be in every device in the world in 10 years time.

A lot of music software developers are excited about the DSP power in the Cell chip, since on paper it wipes the floor with other DSP-in-a-box products like the Soundart Chameleon or the Kyma/Capybara combination.

Re:What is the point

[Trelane]

Are you imploring us to imagine a Beowulf cluster of PS3s? Intriguing...

Not a PS3 per se....

/me would dearly love to get his hands on a cell system, if anyone from IBM is in the house.... :)

Re:What is the point

[Trelane]

From what I heard the SPUs use low precision for floating point operations which makes them useless for many scientific applications.

Yes, and not necessarily, respectively. The SPUs in the PS3 anyway (IIRC this may be changed for other revs of the design, which would definitely be nice for scientific computing) are all single-precision. You must do double-precision (most scientific work) in software+single, which takes a performance hit of one order of magnitude. Fortunately, however, the Cell is blindingly fast at single-precision, so the question of if it'll suck at double precision is not at all settled. But if you only need single-precision, it'll kill.

Disclaimer: I do not actually have a Cell system in my hand, so I've not been able to benchmark any of my/our apps myself. This is based on my interested readings of the cell stuff other people have reported on.

Re:What is the point

[MikeBabcock]

Does it do anything that you couldn't do with a much less expensive PC that you can install Linux on? I just don't get it.

Better question: can you do what the PS3 does for less than the $500 it costs? No.

You get a BDRom drive, high-end gaming system, HDMI capable output, 3.2GHz processor + SPUs, memory and a hard drive with USB ports and bluetooth support.

Tell me you can build one of those for $500. It also has to play really good 3D games, for which the video card will cost more than half of that price.

Re:What is the point

[leblin]

Is there enough consoles out there to do that?

Re:What is the point

[MikeBabcock]

E17 on Yellow Dog is actually an interesting choice -- Enlightenment uses optimized software libraries to render text and graphics that work just as well with or without OpenGL acceleration for its eye-candy. Since the PS3 doesn't yet come with hardware-accelerated OpenGL drivers, Enlightenment should work very well with the very high speed framebuffer display device.

Re:What is the point

[xenocide2]

Sadly, one of the purposes of the HyperVisor(HV) mode seems to be to lock Linux out of most if not all of those features.

Re:What is the point

[drinkypoo]

256MB main memory (the other 256MB is dedicated to graphics) and severely limited access to the graphics hardware is not a high end PC of any sort. It has lots of processing power but it's very hard to use, and not really general-purpose. It's a low-end PC with some high-end hardware. The only people who will find this very useful are people who already use Linux and would like to remotely display applications back to the PS3, people who just need web/email, and the scientific community that would like to use cell for modeling reality :P (Maybe they could be credible render nodes? But the memory is pretty low. Still, they could render partial frames.)

Re:What is the point

[drinkypoo]

If you have a short in your PS/2, it will probably take out the +5 volts line and confuse your whole computer, so that's not much of a benefit. I've had it happen before. Also, most systems with PS/2 ports get them through the ISA bus for some bizarre reason, even when there's no ISA slots in the system. I'd rather just not have an ISA bus. It's bad enough that most (or at least some) current PCI Express systems have an internal PCI bus that some peripherals are attached to. The whole point of PCI-E is that you can use as many lanes as you need and not need any other bus. I want the system simplified. You apparently want it crufted up.

Re:What is the point

[pasamio]

Indeed good luck putting into Debian something that is already there. Logically of course its in the non free repository: http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_packages .pl?keywords=nvidia&searchon=names&subword=1&versi on=unstable&release=all

Re:What is the point

[Mdentari]

So funny Rootbeer. Some people are so blind in their PS3 hate that cant see anything from a positive light. Be objective people. Just because something doesn't appeal just to you doesn't mean other people may not enjoy it. If you don't like the PS3 or see it's potential then don't buy it. I wont shed a tear.

Re:What is the point

[dank zappingly]

I think someone just got an SNES emulator up and running on it. So in other words all the stuff that you'd have to pay to download on the Wii will be emulated free in linux at some point in time.

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in an astophysics research lab and we are trying very hard to purchase IBM blades with Cell processors. Unfortunately these blades are in very short supply and very expensive at this time eg. $10,000 for a dual cell blade, not to mention the blade enclosure and associated hardware.

What makes the Cell processor so interesting are the eight cores which share a large chunk of very fast memory. Our fluid dynamics code scales well across the cores but it runs no faster (flops/core) then the latest Intel Dual Core Xeon. From our perspective it is much more cost effective to purchase dual processor machines which utilize Intel's Quad core CPU than to buy a very expensive Cell processor in a very expensive packagage.

Re:What is the point

[mrchaotica]

No, the GPL license of the kernel prohibits it. To do it, you'd have to have permission from nvidia and all the kernel developers.

Remember a while back when some people got cease-and-desisted for making a live CD with the nvidia drivers included? Unless I'm mistaken, that letter came from a kernel dev, not nvidia.

Re:What is the point

[teh_chrizzle]

that was the precise logic behind chip modding my Xbox 2 years ago. i got the xbox for $140 and the chip for $60 installed. i was then able to load xbox media center, a ton of emulators, and some other ported games and run it quietly in my livingroom for $200. at that time (xmas 2004) i couldn't build a decent home theater PC for twice that price. oh, and my nifty home theater Xbox also plays xbox games and a ton of emulators. so many emulators that i ran it out of disk space :-(

assuming that the media stuff gets worked out on the PS3, or a suitable mod is found, then i may just get one once the price drops.

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

It can and does happen. After a particularly nasty thunderstorm, my sister was curious as to why her keyboard (USB) and net connection (cable modem connected via USB) were dead. After I installed an ethernet adapter for her cablemodem connection and replaced her fancy USB keyboard with an old PS/2 keyboard, the problem was solved.

Since the PC was still under warranty, she called Gateway tech support ("I just bought this computer, and for SOME reason it doesn't work!")

The Gateway techs ended up having to replace her motherboard to restore USB capability.

Re:What is the point

[ccp]

Can you install any OS besides linux on it?

Do you mean there are other OSes besides Linux?

Cheers,
CC

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

The PS3 isn't a high end PC. It's a crippled console... with a processor that was designed to enforce DRM at the hardware level.

Not only that, but you can't play games under Linux... and you sure as hell won't be playing bluray media on it with Linux. On top of all that... most of the interesting bits of hardware are hidden from the Linux kernel.

So no... it's not a high-end media PC. You'd get much better performance from buying a PC (preferably one that hasn't been infected/crippled with a TPM) and running Linux on it. If you buy a PS3 to run Linux on it, you are pissing your money away and supporting something that it completely anti-ethical to Free software.

Re:What is the point

[CronoCloud]

Thanks for the informative post, I didn't know that. I've got a late e16 point whatever installed on my PS2 Linux kit that worked pretty well when I tried it out.(but I wish the bar autohid)

Re:What is the point

[NekoXP]

Ah but it's not gonna be in any Debian LiveCD, it's never going to ship on the Debian Installer kernel..

Installing it from the non-free repository (it's just a metapackage too!) isn't exactly the same as INCLUSION.

Re:What is the point

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. In order to optimize down to a magnitude o about 10^-10 we should buy a USB keyboard to use just in case something happens to our PS/2 keyboard, which are using in case anything happens to the USB ports. Oh, sweet Logitech G15, we barely knew ye.

I have to wonder, though: What self respecting geek doesn't have a pile of PS/2 keyboards sitting around somewhere?

Rootkit

[nogginthenog]

Does it include the 'CD copy protection' loadable module?

We are winning.

[gunny01]

Put that up your pipe and smoke it NetBSD! You don't support Cell! So much for 'Of Course it Supports NetBSD!'

Re:We are winning.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's not a surprise. There're lots of CPUs that Linux supports since years and that NetBSD doesn't support. Itanium support was only integrated recently, while Linux supported it for years. The PPC G5 support for the latest Apple PPC machines is still,I think, in the works (now that apple doesn't sell G5 machines and when IBM is about to release the power6). Add the. S/390, FRV, m32r, 64-bits MIPS, some SH CPUs....MMU-less CPUs, heavily used in the embedded world, aren't supported either. And the support for some of the archs that netbsd supports today, like itanium, was helped heavily by the fact that some linux vendor ported GCC to that architecture first...

There're lots of weird arches that netbsd supports and linux doesn't: VAX, weird old Sun machines...not the ones I'd like to run. It has been a long time since Linux become #1 of support for architectures that matter.

Win Win scenario

[jmorris42]

I just hope Sony understands just what a winning scenario this could be for everyone.

Imagine. Play this right, let the bugs settle out for a few months and then start passing out ready to go DVDs on gaming mag covers. Sell a ready to rock kit with a preloaded memory key, DVD, keyboard and mouse. Instantly a PS3 is a gaming rig, BlueRay player AND a fully functional PC, ready for web browsing, OO.o, etc. Given just a small push and penetration could easilly hit 50% of an installed base likely to number in the tens of millions within two to three years.

For Sony the upside is realizing the sales pitch that a PS3 is more than a console, being able to make the pitch that a PS3 purchase for the kids is ALSO a PC purchase. Plus if it kills a few PC sales why should Sony care? Their desktop PC division is all but dead (laptops are of course another story, they make some cool lappies) and every Windows PC sale is money in their enemy's hand.

For us penguinheads we have to grit our teeth a bit at the idea of Sony succeeding but they ARE doing it the right way in this case so we have to be ready to give em props. Just imagine millions of DESKTOP LINUX installs. Millions! If PS3 ends up selling well and that penetration percentage goes much over 50% Linux could be the #2 desktop OS, pushing Apple to #3. Talk about irony, if Apple abandoned PPC for Intel and a PPC platform ended up defeating them. Balmer wouldn't be the only Steve hurling furniture. :)

Re:Win Win scenario

[poot_rootbeer]

Instantly a PS3 is a gaming rig, BlueRay player AND a fully functional PC, ready for web browsing, OO.o, etc.

Yes, a box with only 256MB of general-purpose RAM is IDEAL for web browsing, Open Office, etc.....

Given just a small push and penetration could easilly hit 50% of an installed base likely to number in the tens of millions within two to three years.

I don't know which claim is more unlikely... that PS3 Linux would be of interest to anywhere near 50% of PS3 owners, or that Sony will be able to sell tens of millions of PS3s in the next couple of years.

Re:Win Win scenario

[mrchaotica]

For us penguinheads we have to grit our teeth a bit at the idea of Sony succeeding but they ARE doing it the right way in this case so we have to be ready to give em props.

It sure seems like a good thing, but we still need to be cautious -- I fully expect Sony to try to slip some DRM or closed-source "extensions" or something in with it sooner or later.

Re:Win Win scenario

[jmorris42]

> that PS3 Linux would be of interest to anywhere near 50% of PS3 owners

And why not? What do most people use a PC for?

1. Internet: Web, IM, etc. PS3 running Linux can do that. Especially once the installed base gets big enough to ensure things like a current Flash and other needed bits are ported in a timely manner.

2. Games. Everyone always rips linux gaming with wiseass cracks like, yea, assuming you think Tux Racer is state of the art, etc. Duh, reboot and it is a Playstation 3 again, bet that can satisfy most people's gamer cravings. Remember, this is oficially supported Linux, no modchips and no worries about being locked out of playing games.

3. Basic productivity. OO.o can do that. Running a hog like OO.o in 256M will be a bit of bother but not insurmountable if you are only doing a bit of that stuff and on small home size documents.

4. Multimedia. The thing already supports direct YUV video modes in all of the HD, ED and SD resolutions under Linux. A Media player setup is a no brainer even if you have to download the packages from Europe. MythTV's frontend will love running on one.

Given that can't you see smart parents buying the kids a PS3 instead of an Xbox360 and a PC? Or that many owners will take advantage of the ability to have a spare PC when they aren't gaming?

> or that Sony will be able to sell tens of millions of PS3s in the next couple of years

Do you think it will still be $599 by next xmas? And that the supply issues with blue lasers will still limit supply of consoles? Ok.

Re:Win Win scenario

[Anonymous Coward]

"I just hope Sony understands just what a winning scenario this could be for everyone."

I have to agree. As I said to someone months before launch, "If, and only if, Sony does it right it will be an amazing machine". The potential upside is amazing, but only if they do it right.

Sitting here I can think of a handful of things it needs in order to better realize its Linux/PC potential:

[X] Support to better utilize the Cell
[_] GPU drivers for accelerated graphics
[_] WiFi drivers
[_] Fix the system boot*

* As of right now, if you install GNU/Linux as an "Other OS" the PS3 boots into it by default. In order to boot into the "Game OS" and play a game, you must hold the power switch for 5 seconds. This boots into the "Game OS" but also has the effect of resetting certain system settings such as video output. The first thing dual-boot users should see is a choice to boot the "Game OS" or the "Other OS".

One down, at least three to go.

Re:Win Win scenario

[justchris]

1. Already in the PS3 OS.
2. Already in the PS3 OS.
3. Yes, you'd need Linux for this one.
4. Already in the PS3 OS.

The point is, no where near 50% of the people buying a PS3 are going to care about Linux. Most of the stuff they would want to use a full OS for can be done directly from the PS3 without installing Linux. With advancements being made in web apps to provide basic productivity, and a built-in web browser, there's suddenly no need for a 'Other OS' on the PS3, and so no one but hardcore geeks who want to program the hardware will ever use it.

Re:Win Win scenario

[Trelane]

Yes, a box with only 256MB of general-purpose RAM is IDEAL for web browsing, Open Office, etc.....

Actually, it's not so bad. You would likely be surprised.

Re:Win Win scenario

[Chibi Merrow]

Do you think it will still be $599 by next xmas?

Yes. What console in the last five years had a price drop in its first year? The only reason they'd drop the price is if it was an utter failure, but they're already losing too much money per unit. Just like the XBox 360, the price isn't coming down anytime soon.

And as far as "millions" of people wanting a box they can use as a PC... 1) It doesn't run windows, therefore no one will want it. 2) Most people already don't use 90% of the features of the devices they own. Even technophiles don't use all the features of their equipment. (My DVD player supports DivX on Demand, for instance, and I've never bothered with it.) So no, no one is going to think "Gee, let me buy this expensive black box so my kid can play games AND use it as an underpowered PC!" You can get a new PC off the shelf w/ 1GB of RAM and a 200GB HD for ~$400-$500 if you want a PC, and you don't have to learn some arcane operating system to use it. 3) See 1).

And that the supply issues with blue lasers will still limit supply of consoles? Ok

Not just blue lasers. Last I checked the Cell yields weren't very high, either.

Wait a minute... Did I honestly see you claim that the PS3 will push Apple out of the desktop market? With Linux? This is just flamebait, right?

Re:Win Win scenario

[tonyhill]

Agreed. Throw in a USB TV tuner and either external storage or increased internal storage, and you've got a nice PVR box. MythTV/PS3, anyone?

The thing is, as long it's running Linux well, Sony doesn't have to do squat to make the PS3 a PVR box. That's already a solved problem under Linux.

Re:Win Win scenario

[ucblockhead]

Sony won't push Linux on the PS3 until it starts selling it at a profit. People buying PS3s to install Linux and never buying a game is Sony's worst nightmare.

Re:Win Win scenario

[CronoCloud]

Doesn't WinXP run on boxes with only 256MB. Last I checked at my local Wal-mart they had a WinXP box for sale with only 256. The Windows machine I have had 256MB as the base RAM and Gateway was advertising them as being good general sue computers.

Personally, I've been running Linux on a PS2 for over 4 years. The 32MB is a limitation yes, but not as much as you might think and the PS3 has 8x as much. It'll be enough for general uses.

Re:Win Win scenario

[gutnor]

With the same argument 50% of computer users would use Linux everyday.

The question is not how PS3 Linux could fill in the computer needs but rather why would 50% of the PS3 owners feel a sudden need to run Linux / solve their computer problem on the PS3.
Especially since
      - They bought a gaming machine, or maybe a Media player.
      - Probably the vast majority of user buying a PS3 already have a computer. ( and probably running Windows )
      - Those who don't have a computer have probably no need of a computer and therefore much less of PS3 running Linux.
      - Sony is still selling the PS3 as a gaming console (duh!) that plays blue ray, not a PC running Linux.

If 1% of PS3 owner even bother to use Linux on their PS3 that would be a victory.

Of course, Sony could start a massive campain of Linux promotion:

Instead of having gaming by default on the machine, the PS3 would start in Linux mode, startup firefox, openoffice, your mail application and display a RSS feed of your meeting of the day. They could also implement a feature that disable gaming to be more corporate friendly and maybe start developing a server version ?

Re:Win Win scenario

[CronoCloud]

I see Linux on the PS3 as trying to get an edge into the "second household PC" market. Lots of people own PC's and some own two (or three) because people get tired of waiting to use the one. But with the PS3 there's no need to buy another Wintel box, thereby also reducing Microsofts OEM Windows sales.

Re:Win Win scenario

[dank zappingly]

Anyone who is not interested in playing games or Blu Ray movies (what Sony uses to recoup their losses) will probably be wise enough to spend their six hundred dollars on a box more suited to their needs. I don't see anyone dropping 600 to run linux on a box with no burner, 256mb of ram, no gpu drivers, and a processor that is going to have a bunch of compatibility issues for the foreseeable future. In other words, it is not Sony's worst nightmare because it is never going to happen.

Re:Win Win scenario

[eklitzke]

Hi. I've had my computer turned on for the last three hours running Firefox 2.0 and with a terminal open doing coding. And I'm running Gnome, which isn't exactly a lightweight desktop environment. Let's look at how much memory I'm using:

> uptime
00:29:09 up 3:13, 1 user, load average: 0.33, 0.20, 0.13
> free -m
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 494 488 6 0 98 209
-/+ buffers/cache: 180 314
Swap: 603 0 603

Re:Win Win scenario

[peterpi]

Yep, 2007 will definitely be the year of the linux desktop.

Re:Win Win scenario

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, a box with only 256MB of general-purpose RAM is IDEAL for web browsing, Open Office, etc.....

I got a feeling that before accelerated 3D someone will make a driver to use the 256MB video memory as fast swap space. That should improve things.

BTW, how fast is the disk in the PS3?

Re:Win Win scenario

[NullProg]

Yes, a box with only 256MB of general-purpose RAM is IDEAL for web browsing, Open Office, etc.....

Whats your point?

My wifes box is loaded with 196M RAM. She uses KDE 3, Xmms, OpenOffice 2, and Mozilla (SeaMonkey, with the java plugin loaded), and it still hasn't hit the swap partition after 90 days.

Enjoy,

Re:Win Win scenario

[TypeC]

And why not? What do most people use a PC for?
1. Internet.
2. Games.
3. Basic productivity.
4. Multimedia. Translation:

1.)pr0n
2.)leisure suit larry
3.)writting new p2p apps for pr0n distribution
4.)'watching' your 0.5TB of, you guessed it, pr0n

Re:Win Win scenario

[poot_rootbeer]

And why not? What do most people use a PC for?

You answered "Internet, games, basic productivity, and multimedia" and I agree with you. However, most people already HAVE a PC with which they do those things, which doesn't give them much motivation to go out and buy a PS3 in order to keep doing them.

Yes, Linux on a new PS3 may even be a better computing experience than XP on a three-year-old Dell -- but it doesn't matter. Unless there's a compelling reason to switch, people will stick with what they're familiar with.

can't you see smart parents buying the kids a PS3 instead of an Xbox360 and a PC?

Just like the "smart" parents who bought their kids a Coleco ADAM (an earlier example of a game console that thought it was a home computer) instead of an Intellivision and an IBM XT? Sure, they saved money at the time, but how well did that work out in the long run?

Do you think it will still be $599 by next xmas?

I absolutely do. Look at the upper-tier Xbox 360 package; it was $400 at launch a year ago, it's still $400. They (both Microsoft and Sony) are going to keep those prices high until production costs come down and they're no longer selling them for a loss.

As long as it's still selling well (and for your scenario where Sony moves 10,000,000 PS3s by 2009, it HAS to sell well throughout 2007), there's no reason to drop the price.

Re:Win Win scenario

[drinkypoo]

I have a Mobile P3 850MHz laptop with 384MB RAM running Ubuntu Dapper. OO.o is painfully slow to start and swaps constantly if I have two OO.o apps up and switch between them. I call shenanigans. If you were surprised, you'd only be surprised that anyone would claim that it was usable in 256MB. People don't like to wait for their word processor between keystrokes.

Re:Win Win scenario

[Trelane]

OO.o is painfully slow to start and swaps constantly if I have two OO.o apps up and switch between them.

I don't know. I just know that I was using OOo on OpenSuSE 10.0 or 10.1 and it seemed slow, but not unreasonably so.

Re:Win Win scenario

[SanityInAnarchy]

Let me add some more checkboxes: [_] Fix the partitioning scheme (let me partition it however I want, not just 50/10 or 10/50) [_] Blu-ray support Problem is, Blu-ray support won't be where I want it, which is, of course, the ability to write completely open source software that can play Blu-ray media. People mention the PS3 as a MythTV box. What they're missing is that Sony will never let us just rip a Blu-ray disc into MythTV -- and that's ignoring the challenge of getting it to record from a high-def source. In fact, if I may: [_] Remove this "hypervisor" bullshit. If anything, they should be implementing a hypervisor underneath a solid open source OS like Linux. Obviously the rationale for doing it this way is that they can deny Linux direct access to things like video and the optical drive, because if it had unlimited access to those, Linux could be used to rip Blu-ray discs (meaning the PS3 could be the first device blacklisted from Blu-ray), and Linux games could compete directly with PS3 games, meaning people wouldn't have to pay for a Sony license to sell a PS3 game -- they'd just sell a PS3/Linux game. Which, ultimately, would be better for the end-user. With only a single box to target, software suspend would be easy, and you could probably get a PS3 Linux to boot in 5-10 seconds -- so just use that time to display the Sony/PS3 logos. Use swap space properly, and people could "boot" a PS3/Linux game, which would probably make the game easier to develop, and would also make it possible to flip between that game and other programs (like Gaim or Firefox) the way you do on Windows -- only if they ran the game on one virtual desktop, it would be much faster than alt+tab on Windows. Could cause problems for game performance, but worst case, you let the user logout of the majority of their X session, kill off anything by that user (and let the game run as a separate user), and watch as 99% of Linux swaps out -- and chances are, you wouldn't have to do that most of the time. You could deny them root (do everything through sudo), and give them a notice that if they become root (except through some dedicated tools, like an update manager), they void their warranty. Then give them a simple way to blow away their current user and create a new one, saving specific things (like gaim passwords and such) and anything else the user requests -- this makes it possible to "reset" the system in case they find they're having to log off too much. With features like that, you'd have the best of both worlds -- arguably better than a Windows machine. Impossible to infect with spyware, because you can always push the magical "reset" button -- could even be a hardware one somewhere. Open the source code to all of it, and you even solve the Slashdot anti-Sony drones (like me). Not going to happen, though. This is Sony we're talking about, but it's not like I know any other corporations that would give up that much control. Oh well, at least I can dream.

Re:Win Win scenario

[SanityInAnarchy]

Damn, there I go again. Damn "HTML formatted" button. Reposting:

Let me add some more checkboxes:

[_] Fix the partitioning scheme (let me partition it however I want, not just 50/10 or 10/50)
[_] Blu-ray support

Problem is, Blu-ray support won't be where I want it, which is, of course, the ability to write completely open source software that can play Blu-ray media. People mention the PS3 as a MythTV box. What they're missing is that Sony will never let us just rip a Blu-ray disc into MythTV -- and that's ignoring the challenge of getting it to record from a high-def source.

In fact, if I may:

[_] Remove this "hypervisor" bullshit.

If anything, they should be implementing a hypervisor underneath a solid open source OS like Linux. Obviously the rationale for doing it this way is that they can deny Linux direct access to things like video and the optical drive, because if it had unlimited access to those, Linux could be used to rip Blu-ray discs (meaning the PS3 could be the first device blacklisted from Blu-ray), and Linux games could compete directly with PS3 games, meaning people wouldn't have to pay for a Sony license to sell a PS3 game -- they'd just sell a PS3/Linux game.

Which, ultimately, would be better for the end-user. With only a single box to target, software suspend would be easy, and you could probably get a PS3 Linux to boot in 5-10 seconds -- so just use that time to display the Sony/PS3 logos. Use swap space properly, and people could "boot" a PS3/Linux game, which would probably make the game easier to develop, and would also make it possible to flip between that game and other programs (like Gaim or Firefox) the way you do on Windows -- only if they ran the game on one virtual desktop, it would be much faster than alt+tab on Windows.

Could cause problems for game performance, but worst case, you let the user logout of the majority of their X session, kill off anything by that user (and let the game run as a separate user), and watch as 99% of Linux swaps out -- and chances are, you wouldn't have to do that most of the time.

You could deny them root (do everything through sudo), and give them a notice that if they become root (except through some dedicated tools, like an update manager), they void their warranty. Then give them a simple way to blow away their current user and create a new one, saving specific things (like gaim passwords and such) and anything else the user requests -- this makes it possible to "reset" the system in case they find they're having to log off too much.

With features like that, you'd have the best of both worlds -- arguably better than a Windows machine. Impossible to infect with spyware, because you can always push the magical "reset" button -- could even be a hardware one somewhere. Open the source code to all of it, and you even solve the Slashdot anti-Sony drones (like me).

Not going to happen, though. This is Sony we're talking about, but it's not like I know any other corporations that would give up that much control.

Oh well, at least I can dream.

Re:Win Win scenario

[Trelane]

also, what speed is your hard drive?

Re:Win Win scenario

[drinkypoo]

2.5" 5400 RPM - same as the drive in the PS3.

Re:Win Win scenario

[Mdentari]

You mean you don't want it. Why do you care what other people buy. Your bashing it just to bash it and getting mad at people who see potential in the system. If you don't like it then don't buy it. (Yes I know you won't buy it so stop getting so upset.) It's just a console and life goes on with or without you.

Re:Win Win scenario

[Trelane]

Weird. I dunno. This was a desktop system, so maybe its hard drive was faster? It was a very old system, though.

Re:Win Win scenario

[Chibi Merrow]

When did I once say anything negative about the PS3? It's a nice piece of hardware. The same way an SGI Onyx was a nice piece of hardware, but no one wanted one for their home. No, I was in no way bashing the PS3. Instead I was popping someone's unrealistic dreams like a balloon. What I said in no way negatively reflects on the PS3. My point was it's not the second coming and the person I was responding to's expectations of it were not at all based in reality. Consumers don't think and/or behave the way he or she suggested.

Plus, after posting that, I remembered Macs run Windows now, too. Making the idea of the PS3 pushing Apple out of the desktop market that much more hilarious.

Re:Win Win scenario

[Ajehals]

Its strange I have an ancient Dell latitude cpx (500Mhz PIII with 384Mb RAM and a fairly modern 2.5 80Gb HDD) - All I use it for is on the road stuff like keeping up with email, a bit of net access, reading and editing odf's the odd presentation and a few other minor things and it works a charm. Its running Debian with KDE slimmed down somewhat, but performs perfectly adequately, to be fair I use konqueror for web access, - although firefox seems perfectly fine to, so I'm not sure what your problem is...

The only problem I have is watching movies on it, (Handy when travelling) basically the audio goes out of sync with the video if I try and watch anything not specially cut down for it, although mencoder deals with that. Moreover I have three batteries for it (its of a modular design so I can stick two in at once... with one spare) so it is good for even the longest journey, - about 2hrs per battery between charges. Oh and unlike my other laptops - it doesn't seem to break when dropped.... (50.50 chance that will change next time I drop it...)

Whilst we are semi on the subject of Linux on different devices, so far I have only seen the benefits of it and when people put some effort in this generally provides fantastic performance and capabilities - I have an IPAQ H2215 with Familiar Linux and Opie on - and performs massively better under Linux than under windows, - i.e. playing mp3's is now seamless, I can if I wish watch a movie on it.. (320x240,, but hey its OK for a short while). No more problems with large e-books, pdf's, rtf's etc.. a stack of games, a great PIM, bluetooth, web browsing via my phone and a selection of web browsers. Its even possible to stick a web server on (and a seemingly for static content.. an extremely fast one at that) also and most important for me I can sync all the data with my desktop extremely easily, and back up the CF card (with the OS n) completely.

Re:Win Win scenario

[drinkypoo]

Yeah, I have one of those H2215s (from geeks.com) and I put familiar linux on it once but at the time I was still running windows on my main system. I'll probably do it again soon. On the other hand I've had great luck with watching movies under WinCE. I downloaded some alternative player (been so long I forget which one!) and as long as you transcode down to an appropriate size and bitrate it works very nicely. I use SUPER to transcode. I got a Sandisk 128MB CF+802.11b card for it, and a 1GB SD.

Re:What is the point or shiny PS3 clusters!

[WillAffleckUW]

Well, it gives you something to do when you're not having fun playing games on your Wii - that's why you put Linux on your PS3!

Besides, after the rabbits take over, all your PS3 are belong to Rayman ...

Now all it needs is Wireless support...

[DarkJC]

As an owner of a PS3 with Linux installed, the only thing that's missing is wireless support. Wired Ethernet works flawlessly, now lets see some wireless drivers!

Re:Now all it needs is Wireless support...

[jonwil]

Screw the wireless, give us hardware accelerated 3D.

Re:Now all it needs is Wireless support...

[NullProg]

As an owner of a PS3 with Linux installed, the only thing that's missing is wireless support. Wired Ethernet works flawlessly, now lets see some wireless drivers!

How about writing a review and posting here to slashdot for the rest of us who don't? Give us the scoop on Video, Sound, network etc.
We expect it by Saturday :)

Thanks.
Enjoy,

Can't take full advantage.

[Kadin2048]

Except that I believe that you can't use many of the advanced features of the GPU because it currently lacks Linux drivers.

Also, at least as of a while ago, Linux didn't take advantage of all the SPUs within Cell; I'd hope that the Sony kernel modules mentioned in this article solve that problem, but I'm not sure.

Processing Power

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been waiting for the PS3 for quite a while. Heavy duty image processing (real-time 3D reconstruction from video, image coregistration, mosaicing, ...) may be possible at a VERY reasonable price. The SMP programming model looks very much simpler than I'd anticipated.

Where can I buy one?

RSX unlocking and its strategic market effect

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe small-game developers could (spontaneusly, ofcourse) start an avalanche of open-source & closed-source console games compatible with PS3 & Linux? Keep in mind that having a game/engine on "THE PS3" is quite cool in various ways for them..

I wonder if this could give linux/SONY competitive edge over Microsoft et al. in both long and short runs? I can't see it could cause harm to the mainstream AAA-game sales nor the console sales, on the contrary...

Re:RSX unlocking and its strategic market effect

[Wesley Felter]

The PS3/Linux market is extremely small; indie game developers would be much better off developing for OS X.

Re:RSX unlocking and its strategic market effect

[Anonymous Coward]

Haha! Good one.

Re:RSX unlocking and its strategic market effect

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can compile it for a mac, it should be a no-brainer to get it to compile in Linux, unless you use operating system-specific codes and libraries.

You can win a PS3 with Linux by hacking it!

[Anonymous Coward]

A PS3 Hacking challenge runs during december : if you want a PS3 with a 160 GB hard disk and Linux pre-installed, it is yours for free if you can hack it!

Who needs video?

[ArcherB]

I see a lot of people here complaining that it is worthless without video drivers. I disagree. Granted, you won't be playing Quake on it, but that does not make it worthless. The first thing I will do when I get one is to have it take over the function of my current Linux box and run my web page off of it. Apache doesn't care what video card you have. This will allow me to dump my space-heater Athlon XP in favor of something a bit more AC friendly. Unfortunately, I won't be able to play a game and run my web page at the same time, but that's why I need to buy 2!!! :-)

Next, this machine will work just fine for checking email, typing documents, spreadsheets, presentations, browsing the web, downloading porn or whatever else you use a PC for. The only downside I see is the lack of storage space. Let's hope it takes external USB drives.

Re:Who needs video?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only downside I see is the lack of storage space. Let's hope it takes external USB drives.

I don't own one, but it I've read it does. Perhaps somoneone who has one could confirm this here.

In any event, depending on which one you get it comes with a 20gig or 60gig 2.5" SATA drive. You can upgrade to any 2.5" SATA drive you want (doing so does not void the warranty).

Re:Who needs video?

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd be a fool to buy a PS3 as a general purpose PC. If you have a specific interest or application for the SPUs, cool. Otherwise buy the PS3 for the games and treat the fact you can boot linux (albeit under a hypervisor) as a bonus.

Re:Who needs video?

[ThisNukes4u]

you don't need to buy two ps3's. You could just buy the cheapest celeron or sempron pc available and it will still be faster than your athlon xp, plus tons cheaper than having two ps3's. And I highly doubt the ps3 is any more AC friendly than an athlon xp, have you seen that fan on that thing?

Re:Who needs video?

[ArcherB]

you don't need to buy two ps3's. You could just buy the cheapest celeron or sempron pc available and it will still be faster than your athlon xp, plus tons cheaper than having two ps3's. And I highly doubt the ps3 is any more AC friendly than an athlon xp, have you seen that fan on that thing?

You are correct, but who wants a crappy celeron when they could have two PS3's? Of course, with the second PS3, I need another HDTV. That means another cable box for the bedroom... You see where I'm going with this? If I don't spend the money, we'll end up with another baker's rack, vanity, or some other worthless piece of furniture!

Re:Who needs video?

[Megane]

The first thing I will do when I get one is to have it take over the function of my current Linux box and run my web page off of it.

So what happens to your web page when you want to play GTA4 or FFXVIII? Or were you planning to play nothing but nethack, Tux Racer, and sokoban?

Once you get past the geek factor, there's really no point in using a PS3 as a server when you could use a cheap PC with a fanless CPU instead. If your web page really NEEDS that space-heater Athlon XP, then it probably uses enough bandwidth to a hosting facility too. Plus, you could put in more than 256M RAM, which Apache would appreciate much more than a Cell CPU. My own web site runs just fine on a 7 year old 350MHz G3 with 1G RAM. About $100-$150 including RAM is a lot cheaper than an almost unobtainable (and should remain so at least until March) $500+ PS3. You could also get a used G4 Mac mini cheaper than a PS3, and it's smaller, too. And whatever form of "real" computer you get, you can still run games while it's doing something else.

Re:Who needs video?

[dank zappingly]

I like your style. You probably won't need an external hard drive because you can just switch out the internal drive for a bigger one. Sony apparently expected people to download a crapload of stuff to this thing in the future.

Re:Who needs video?

[Lonewolf666]

According to other sources, the power consumption of the PS3 is somewhere between 180 and 205 watts.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061 113/123458/
That is probably worse than your space-heater Athlon XP.

PS3 is not so bad

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

The PS3 is actually shaping up to be a pretty nice console. Blu-Ray, Linux support, HDMI, nice CPU/GPU, USB/Bluetooth for controllers. It also seems to be pretty quiet, more so than the 360.

If Sony had released the high-end system at $500 (low end at $400), and hadn't made so many stupid blunders (no resolution scaling, lack of an online plan, limited availability), I think that the PS3 would be creaming the 360 right now.

There's nothing wrong with the PS3 that software patches and price cuts can't help. Unfortunately, as soon as Sony actually gets availability (early next year?), you can bet that MS will be ready with a $300 die-shrunk, cooler, and quieter Premium 360.

Re:PS3 is not so bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually thought you said Pentium 360. I had to read it a few times to make sure... Why would they put in a Pentium? haha

Re:PS3 is not so bad

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing wrong with the PS3 that software patches and price cuts can't help. Unfortunately, as soon as Sony actually gets availability (early next year?), you can bet that MS will be ready with a $300 die-shrunk, cooler, and quieter Premium 360.

But unless you're a Sony exec or rampant fanboy, why is that unfortunate ? If Sony and MS are both racing to produce cheaper and better versions of their consoles first, then it seems like a win-win for consumers to me.

Re:PS3 is not so bad

[dank zappingly]

I don't think the PS3 is going to be easy to get any time soon unless they really ramp up production. You have to remember that they still have to launch in Europe and Australia, and the demand in the U.S. and Japan is still far from satisfied.

Re:PS3 is not so bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I got in the the latest 60 gig gamestop.com order... Shipping on the 15th..

http://www.coreground.com/playstation tracks the major online sites for in stock status...

Re:PS3 is not so bad

[drago177]

For availability, this site automatically tells you where to buy PS3:

http://www.coreground.com/playstation

I hear you can even set up an SMS msg to let you know when one is available.

hopefully

[minus_273]

hopefully the code will be audited to make sure there arent any backdoors, trojans or DRM schemes snuck into the kernel

Re:hopefully

[Procyon101]

I was thinking the same thing... maybe it comes with a preinstalled rootkit like their music CD's :)

Re:hopefully

[bunbuntheminilop]

If I lost my games saves I don't know what I'd do!

Re:hopefully

[minus_273]

your sony game saves are already DRMed with magic gate

Burner, keyboard, mouse, printer

[tepples]

But can it burn CDs/DVDs?

The PLAYSTATION 3 game console running Linux might be able to use an optical disc recorder connected to one of its USB 2.0 ports.

Can you install any OS besides linux on it?

Any operating system vendor is welcome to make a boot loader module for PS3 Other OS Installer. But in general, only Free operating systems are going to be worth anybody's time.

Does it have a PS/2 Keybord/mouse port

The keyboard and mouse used with the PlayStation 2 game console (PS2) were a standard USB keyboard and a standard USB mouse. Yes, these devices also work with PS3 consoles.

or a printer port?

Sony left off a dedicated printer port probably because it saw that Nintendo's Game Boy Printer was a flop. But you can still attach any USB or network printer that has a CUPS driver.

Re:Burner, keyboard, mouse, printer

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it that sometimes PEOPLE feel the NEED to capitalize all the NOUNS in their SENTENCES? It's only started happening over the last YEAR or two.

Re:Burner, keyboard, mouse, printer

[AcidLacedPenguiN]

I think you mistook PS/2 for PS2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_connector
is not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_2

Re:Burner, keyboard, mouse, printer

[HappySqurriel]

My point was that installing Linux on a PS3 is like putting a square peg into a round hole; if the hole is large enough and the peg is small enough it will "work" but it is not a good fit. With $400 you could buy a cheap PC that can do everything the PS3 does (except play Blu-Ray movies) and has legacy support for (practically) every piece of hardware you already own; for $500/$600 you can buy a PS3 which can not do everything a PC does, and if you want to make use of hardware you already own you'll have to find adapters or print servers or whatever.

Re:Burner, keyboard, mouse, printer

[CronoCloud]

That $400 PC can't play PS3 games or PS2 games. It can't even play PC games very well.

The PS3 on the other hand is fully capable of opening a Word document and printing it out and other supposedly PC only things.

Re:Burner, keyboard, mouse, printer

[Mdentari]

Come on man why are you complaining. No one, nowhere, even God if he came down from heaven would convince you to get a PS3 so stop wasting bandwidth and go back to playing you Gamecube or Xbox or low end PC with Riva128 in it. Anyone remember that Vonnage commercial with the geek, the girl and the sports car and the geek saying to the hot girl "It won't work out I breaking up with you". Well buddy thats you.

The fourth console?

[tepples]

Maybe small-game developers could (spontaneusly, ofcourse) start an avalanche of open-source & closed-source console games compatible with PS3 & Linux?

Quoted for truth. Either that, or they could target the emerging fourth console known as home theater PC.

Re:The fourth console?

[Hitto]

Has it been five years, already? Is "convergence" a buzzword again?
No disrespect meant, but, seriously... As long as we don't see standardized "simple" tech like cell phones, don't hope for standardized HTPCs Joe Sixpack can configure and customize on his own.

Or maybe you were talking abour windows media center edition? It runs MAME, I've heard.

Depends on the WM

[SuperKendall]

Yes, a box with only 256MB of general-purpose RAM is IDEAL for web browsing, Open Office, etc.....

Hasn't anyone ever run a slimmed down WM like TWM?

With a smaller screen and simpler uses, you don't need a fancy WM that takes up a great deal of memory - and Mozilla should run just fine in that little memory with most of the OS and WM not hogging memory.

Re:Depends on the WM

[moranar]

Hasn't anyone ever run a slimmed down WM like TWM?

Yea, Blackbox and its ilk.

Mozilla should run just fine in that little memory

No, if I had now a computer with 256 MB of RAM (I have a 64 MB one I use as a server, though), I probably wouldn't use Mozilla on it (nor Firefox) alongside TWM. Why would I go to the trouble of avoiding "heavy" libraries (GTK) if I was going to install a feature-laden browser on it? Worse, the broser is going to require them, or their own separate attempt (yes, I use Epiphany on GNOME for, mostly, this reason).

Re:Depends on the WM

[peterpi]

With 256Mb, you don't really need a slimmed down window manager. I run whatever version of gnome ships with debian etch quite happily on 256Mb/800Mhz laptop.

Waste

[SuperKendall]

What is wasteful is having a billion ports on the back of something when just a few would do.

Besides, you can also use a bluetooth keyboard/mouse with it as well (assuming those drivers work, have not heard if they do or not).

Yep

[StarKruzr]

With the "stream processors" as part of it, Cell is kind of like a DSP fused with a GPP. It will be EXTREMELY GOOD at certain tasks like scientific computing and digital signal processing.

Thanks for digging this up

[Lonewolf666]

I'd like to add that according to other sources, the PS3 runs Linux under a hypervisor that hides the graphics chip from Linux, so that limitation might be permanent (unless someone does serious, and in some jurisdictions illegal, hacking).

What remains is a computer with a very interesting CPU, but rather limited RAM and no 3D hardware acceleration. For most everyday use cases, a generic PC should do better.

Re:Thanks for digging this up

[rtb61]

Think of it more as a console accesory, remote keyboard and mouse with Linux and you are extending the capabilities of your game console to include a reliable working computer - email, internet browsing, office suite etc.(it is a just a matter of waiting for that option pack to be released), the inverse of a typical personal computer, with the addition of dual boot to the toy operating system 'windows', you also get an unreliable game console out of a working computer.

Re:Thanks for digging this up

[MilenCent]

Really? Dammit.

If that information is true, it should be included in boldface, italics, underlining and all caps in EVERY mention of Linux on the system. It is not playing fair, in my opinion.

PS3 as a PC? It would piss off gamers

[jchenx]

If Sony started truly started marketing the PS3 big-time as a PC, I can guarantee that this move would piss off many gamers. They want a game console, and one that does a really job at it. Your typical hard-core gamer doesn't want some secondary PC they can use to read their mail or do their homework on. After all, they probably already have a PC or a laptop for that. The PS3 is supposed to be something that gets turned on when you want to play a game.

So that's the danger of Sony and Linux on the PS3. They can't push it too much, for fear of alienating their core fan-base. Marketing it to the mainstream doesn't make sense either, since those folks are, again, most likely to own computers already, and ones running Windows.

Re:PS3 as a PC? It would piss off gamers

[snarfbot]

why would that piss anyone off, like: "fuck!! theyre releasing a linux disc? fuck!!!! the friggin web browser was one thing, but this is the last straw, AHHHRHRRRAAAHGGGG!!! fucking sony. this settles it im getting a wii." rippin their hair out and shit. punching the wall, breaking furniture. then the guy takes it out on the poor dog, "fucking DOG!" kicking him, "FUCKING SONY" kick, kick, kick. "ARGHHHHHH" do you really think its going to be sold as a pc, like the marketing hype, "sony playstation 3, personal computer." i think the playstation name is pretty widely known to be a game console at this point. im really not sure how anyone could get upset about this.

Re:PS3 as a PC? It would piss off gamers

[Chibi Merrow]

They would get upset if Sony is pushing the thing as a PC when they can't GET one for themselves to play games on. They wouldn't take it out on Sony but the might beat up and rob the person of their PS3 PC.

Re:PS3 as a PC? It would piss off gamers

[jchenx]

why would that piss anyone off, like: "fuck!! theyre releasing a linux disc? fuck!!!! the friggin web browser was one thing, but this is the last straw, AHHHRHRRRAAAHGGGG!!! fucking sony. this settles it im getting a wii." rippin their hair out and shit. punching the wall, breaking furniture. then the guy takes it out on the poor dog, "fucking DOG!" kicking him, "FUCKING SONY" kick, kick, kick. "ARGHHHHHH" do you really think its going to be sold as a pc, like the marketing hype, "sony playstation 3, personal computer." i think the playstation name is pretty widely known to be a game console at this point. im really not sure how anyone could get upset about this.

Gamers can be fickle. MS took a lot of flack when they first demoed the 360, concentrating a lot on all the platform features outside of the games themselves. They showed a lot of attention to the media capabilities, achievement system, Live Marketplace, etc. At the time, a lot of gamers were yelling, "Come on, show us the games already!". Nowadays, a lot of gamers actually like these features, so it's not an issue. After all, many of them were extensions of gaming (gamer score, how to get more demos, see trailers, have custom playlists in your games, etc.).

Most gamers would be fine if Sony did something similar with the PS3. Actually, they expect it now. Feature parity is something that would be nice across the consoles.

However, if Sony went beyond and started focusing on crap that's less and less game related ("You can use the PS3 to type up your homework!"), then it can cause that gamer angst. There's the perception too, that if you spend X amount of time on some non-gaming related feature (say the web browser), that's X less time spent on something that WAS gaming related (better buddy list support).

Granted, I could be wrong and there could be hordes of gamers that can't wait to boot up their console to browse their web or finish their Chemistry paper, but somehow I don't think that's the case ...

great, wheres blueray support for linux? drm drm

[Anonymous Coward]

don't be too quick to bend over for sony just because you get tossed a few crumbs.

Re:great, wheres blueray support for linux? drm dr

[entmike]

If I recall correctly, they are already dumping Blu-Ray images using Linux. I don't know if this is beneficial, or if you are getting what equates to a locked 17.5GB piece of crap that you will never crack, but hey, this is Slashdot, right?

Re:PS3 as a server farm

[cheekyboy]

well maybe setup 20-30 of them, and bingo a large cluster for a big website, if your cheap and cannot afford $9k hardware. I guess on a total hits/dollar its cheaper.

XNA Creators Club costs $500 over console life

[tepples]

Just the Xbox 360.

Running homebrew produced in XNA Game Studio on an Xbox 360 game console requires an active XNA Creators Club membership for each console. This costs $100 per year for the developer and, worse, $100 per year for each user. This is $500 over the life of the console, the same price as a PLAYSTATION 3 game console (once Sony ramps up production).

Or, you know, any PC. It's not like you can't get TV-out.

What percent of PCs have TV output, and what percent of those TV outputs are actually used? What kind of Free, free, or shareware game would drive demand for a second PC for the living room?

Re:XNA Creators Club costs $500 over console life

[drinkypoo]

What percent of PCs have TV output, and what percent of those TV outputs are actually used? What kind of Free, free, or shareware game would drive demand for a second PC for the living room?

Well, I think you're kind of missing the point. PS3 lets you write software for free on linux, but you get access to basically none of the features of the graphics hardware and you don't even get to use all the SPEs because one is dedicated to linux. Xb360 costs money to develop for. Therefore neither console is a good platform for the hobbyist developer. Therefore, if you want to practice game development, you should be on a PC. You can only do 2D games for the PS3, and few people will pay money for that anyway.

Re:XNA Creators Club costs $500 over console life

[tepples]

PS3 lets you write software for free on linux, but you get access to basically none of the features of the graphics hardware

You have the Cell. The PPC alone is as powerful as the Mac mini's CPU, and you could use some of the SPEs to make a software renderer.

Therefore, if you want to practice game development, you should be on a PC.

Are enough PCs connected to TVs? Without a TV, how does one fit four players around the display?

You can only do 2D games for the PS3, and few people will pay money for that anyway.

Super Smash Bros. has 3D models that move in a 2D plane, a style that would be adapted into that of New Super Mario Bros. It would be trivial to make it use Donkey Kong Country/Killer Instinct/Mario Kart 64 style pre-rendered characters instead.

Re:XNA Creators Club costs $500 over console life

[drinkypoo]

Therefore, if you want to practice game development, you should be on a PC.

Are enough PCs connected to TVs? Without a TV, how does one fit four players around the display?

You continue to flog this argument as if it meant something.

The Xbox is a PC connected to a TV.

But more importantly, you seem to have missed the word "practice". It is really not that useful to learn one console - it teaches you something but you're going to have to relearn the hardware's characteristics on the next console since they're all different. So you might as well practice programming on a plain old PC. And if you can't get it connected to a TV you don't deserve to be a game developer.

You can only do 2D games for the PS3, and few people will pay money for that anyway.

Super Smash Bros. has 3D models that move in a 2D plane, a style that would be adapted into that of New Super Mario Bros. It would be trivial to make it use Donkey Kong Country/Killer Instinct/Mario Kart 64 style pre-rendered characters instead.

But then there's no benefit derived from using the PS3, and you don't learn anything about 3d graphics programming which is where you need to be these days.

The PS3 is all but worthless as a game development platform unless we get full access to the video hardware. You can get excited about a deliberately-crippled platform if you want, but it doesn't excite me.

PS3 linux will be useful for a very small handful of things: scientific computing, minor computing tasks, as a thin client, and as a media player. These will be niche uses as it is. Anything else will be beyond niche, it'll be a spidery crack in the wall of the canyon.

Wii is open to experienced developers only

[tepples]

I've looked into the Wii developer agreement on warioworld.com, and Nintendo requires developers to have 1. experience selling games on another platform and 2. office space not attached to a residence (for security purposes). So on which other platform should prospective Wii developers develop and sell games in order to gain experience?

Re:Wii is open to experienced developers only

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Not yet, but i've almost completed dovelopment of Virtual Game Retailer for Xbox360 & PC. 2. Doesn't a door seperate most geek's basements (office) from their mum's house (residence)

"Home offices do not meet this requirement"

[tepples]

2. Doesn't a door seperate most geek's basements (office) from their mum's house (residence)

Nope. From Wii developer application:

In addition, an authorized developer must have a stable business organization with secure office facilities, equipment, personnel and financial resources in order to insure the security of Nintendo proprietary information and in order to ensure an effective environment for working with Nintendo and/or its licensees. Home offices do not meet this requirement.

Re:PS3 as a server farm

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be just as expensive for a setup that probably only performs at best half the tried and tested alternatives.
20 x $499 = $9,980

I miss the ISA slots

[LWATCDR]

They are so easy to interface.
So are parallel ports for that matter.
And I just had to put in a serial port card into a one of my systems.

But then I do embedded development so my needs are in the minority.
For the vast majority of users the older ports are useless. Of course just as you get ride of the old printer, PS/2, and RS-232 ports you now add a bunch of different Audio and video ports... So much for simplification.

Re:I miss the ISA slots

[drinkypoo]

For the vast majority of users the older ports are useless. Of course just as you get ride of the old printer, PS/2, and RS-232 ports you now add a bunch of different Audio and video ports... So much for simplification.

The thing about computers these days is that you can pretty much plug things in anywhere they fit and have the system work. I've even had motherboards that don't care where you plug the memory in - it can be in any combination of slots. Now that's magic :)

Sure, we typically aren't reducing the number of ports on machines, although I have to say that this HPQ nw9440 "mobile workstation" does seem to reduce the number of places you can plug things in. It has maybe no less ports, but four of them are USB2 and there's nothing legacy on this machine, the oldest bus it carries is PCI hung off the PCI-E (if you don't count PCMCIA, which in this case is a Type II/Cardbus.) Modem, ethernet, four USB2, a firewire, and the usual analog audio jacks, an HD15 VGA, and an S-Video out. There's probably the usual number of holes but the purpose of each is immediately obvious.

Besides, more and more devices are going to USB. USB does suck, but it sucks a lot less in some ways than serial and parallel ports. It's harder to speak to for sure...