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The Next Notebook Battery? Lithium Polymer
Lewis Clarke writes "Sony is changing its course to use an old technology for its new battery manufacturing. ZDNet is reporting on comments from Sony Electronics President Stan Glasgow, where he said that Notebook makers will 'likely' soon choose to incorporate lithium polymer batteries (a battery technology that emerged nine years ago) over the current commonly used type, lithium ion batteries." From the article: "Lithium polymer batteries use lithium as an active ingredient. Lithium is a volatile material, but the lithium in these batteries isn't packed into cells as it is in lithium ion batteries. Instead, it is contained in a polymer gel. These gel batteries can't provide the same sort of energy density as lithium ion batteries, but that's now a plus."
I must be getting confused - I thought Lithium Polymer was better than Lithium Ion?
Or, giving them their full name, are they not referring to Lithium Ion Polymer batteries?
Why not use dilithium, instead?
What is the ratio for power:wight
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Right. I'm going to take advice on laptop batteries from Sony. Is this their fix for the spontaneously combusting laptop batteries they've been selling Dell?
Li-Poly batteries have been around awhile. Hobbyists were the first I know to use them. I don't know that they have improved in safety issues over the last few years, but perhaps you should see the following
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example of a li-poly flame out before buying li-poly batteries?
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1
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I thought lithium polymer was actually newer than lithium ion? Yeah, it's less energy dense, but it's a lot safer, as it is much less likely to burst into flames (though it can still happen from over charging or too-fast charging if I remember correctly).
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Is it just me or do others start to feel nervous when Sony start trying to push new battery technology..?
Less power and less bang for the buck? Can't wait for the marketing people to spin that one.
Why is less energy density a plus? I would like a laptop with a long battery life, and improvements in processor technology should be used to increase battery life, not reduce the capacity of batteries.
These gel batteries can't provide the same sort of energy density as lithium ion batteries, but that's now a plus.
Um, no it's not a plus. Well, maybe for Sony since they can't seem to manufacture LiIon batteries reliably. But for the rest of the industry, I'm pretty sure lower engergy density (and hence shorter runtimes and/or larger batteries) is a minus. Otherwise we would all be running our laptops on alkalines.
unless things have changed, i remember that the original iPod used a Lithium-polymer battery and i've heard that the useful lifetime of the battery wasn't that great (less than 50% usable capasity after 1 year), which prompted Apple to switch to a regular lithium-ion for the 2nd and later generations.
has anything changed with this or is what i've heard BS?
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High end notebooks from Dell, IBM, and possibly others all use lithium polymer batteries for their drivebay batteries, where space is extremely tight and the geometry is suboptimal for cylindrical cells. Li-polymer batteries can be made into very thin shapes and don't need a metal case to contain individual cells. Because of this, the energy density is actually higher. I think the reason they're not in widespread use is simply that they cost more.
No, that's not "a plus." That's a cost-benefit tradeoff on the manufacturing side, and a risk-reward proposal on the end-user side. Lower energy density means either shorter battery life or heavier laptops. I don't think anyone would call either of those results a "plus." They're tradeoffs.
Moreover, there are plenty of Li-ion batteries out there that haven't overheated, burned, detonated, or imploded into naked singularities causing the annihilation of life as we know it. Which means, for those batteries, you get to have longer battery life or lighter laptops sans the death and destruction result, so the move from that state to the proposed solution isn't even a tradeoff, it's a pure loss.
Covering for the inadequacy of your manufacturing/QC processes by making a worse product that's easier to make doesn't translate into a "plus." It sounds to me that the real plus would be if they moved to a power source they've obviously got in plenty - though I think the name "spintronics" has already been taken.
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
You mean "current notebook battery"?
I'm typing this on a c2d MacBook Pro which lists a lithium polymer battery as its spec. Third bullet line down on that page. I also have a 5GB iPod that uses a lithium polymer battery. Apple went Li-Ion for later iPods, probably for higher capactiy, but I'm on my second battery in 5 years and it gives me more than 8 hours of playtime (haven't tested it beyond that).
I guess that means Apple isn't using Sony for its current batteries?
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If there's a company that can make even lithium polymer gel packs catch fire and explode, that's Sony.
I also commend them for being so proactive: while the other companies are all focused on the current holiday season, Sony is already planning products for the next 4th of July.
In the RC aircraft world, Lithium Polymer batteries are king, due to their fairly high capacity and incredibly high current draw (some packs up to 40 amps). Several folks have tried making packs out of laptop LiIon cells, but they just can't deliver the amps. Is this true that LiIon packs hold more energy but have a lower maximum amp draw? Most laptops draw about 1-3 amps I believe, so this isn't really an issue, but I am curious.
I know the model RC community does. Higher end planes and helicopters, especially the all electric ones, tend to use LiPo batteries.
What scares me though... many many reports of fires due to overcharging (shoddy chargers). It is suggested to always charge the LiPos in a 'battery bunker', a clay pot filled with sand, with a lid.
Isn't that what they were trying to prevent with the new laptops?
As my name implies I fly R/C aircraft as a hobby. Within the last few years electric powered models have really taken off. Most of this is due to the Li-Po battery. Lithium Polymer batteries are a subset of Lithium Ion batteries but the design of the cells are different.
Li-Po batteries are small and light and can produce a higher continue current than lithium ion. They are very powerful batteries.
One of the problems though...and why I generally stay away from them is that they explode. They can easily become unstable if dropped (or crashed). I don't claim to be an expert but the cells in a lithium ion battery are metal - they can sustain an impact and vibration where as the cells in a lithium polymer are mostly plastic which can cause a mix of the chemicals inside and cause the battery to heat up until it vents and then explodes.
Fire caused by overcharging
Video of a lipo battery going bad.
Seems like this will be old news once Steorn comes out...
Actually Lipo are more likely to explode. Most Lipo battery cells contain plastic whereas lithium ion cells are metal.
Lipo battery warning for R/C aviation
I use both battery types in various aircraft. The lithium polymer is much less stable. I've seen a pack swell and be ready to vent just by knocking one off of a table onto the ground. Lithium ion will not do this. Also, keep in mind that any battery will explode if you overcharge it.
It's like NASA only with batteries
I for one welcome our lithium polymer gelly overlords whom emerged 9 years ago!!
obligatory2: i'm so sorry i had to...
i tried using these batteries, and my cousin's wife was kidnapped.
The main downside to Li-Polymer is that it is less efficient by volume and weight.
This, I think, is not true. LiIons may be more efficient by volume, but LiPos are almost certainly more efficient per weight, because they don't have the cells, or many of the protection mechanisms that LiIon batteries have to have.
The power/weight advantage is why they're used in applications where weight is more important than volume -- R/C aircraft, for instance. When LiPo batteries came out, they basically replaced NiCads and LiIon batteries overnight in most ultralight aircraft and helis, because they're just so much lighter (meaning that if you had an aircraft designed for NiCads, which wasn't atypical, you could get ridiculous flight time by upgrading to LiPoly cells).
But being more efficient per volume, that I could definitely believe.
The other big advantage I have heard is that with LiPo, you don't have to encase the batteries as heavily, so more of the weight and volume can actually be taken up with electricity-storing components, instead of as an 'exoskeleton' providing protection for the cells.
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Didn't you hear that everyone has switched over to gel packs?
The Lithium Polymer gets hoy only when it is charging, as oppose to the common Litium ion battery today gets hot when it is used.
So, when it blows up, there is a smaller likelihood people will be around it!
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I guess whether or not it's a plus depends on how much you value your life. I've used Li-Po batteries in other devices, and they're not that much worse than Li-Ion for most uses with reasonable draw. The lithium inside these batteries is dangerous, put in too much energy (typicaly more than 4.6v per cell for Li-Po) and it'll blow up regardless of whether it's a Li-Po, Li-Ion or Li-Mn. Have a look at this video clip, from a company that makes a Li-Po charging safety device, to see the effect:
http://www.liposack.com/video.html
That's with Li-Po cells, imagine the reaction from a more dangerous battery. Li-Po batteries have a relatively safe medium in which to pack the lithium vs the other technologies, and they're more tolerant to bad treatment. The batteries do indeed come with somewhat less energy density, but if you have too high of an energy density you have a bomb instead of a battery. That is indeed a tradeoff. Loss occurs when you lose an arm, or the plane you're on crashes due to a laptop fire. Whether or not it happens to you is irrelevant. It only needs to happen once to do damage, and in the case of a plane it needn't be your laptop.
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The 17" powerbook G4 and all the macbooks and macbook pros use LiPoly batteries. So does the iPod. (Notice that the Sony recall was only for 15" and 12" powerbook g4s)
Why does this sound familiar? Ah, yes!
ca. 1975:
"Ford president Lee Iacocca has said that automakers will 'likely' soon choose to incorporate coal-fired steam engines (an engine technology that emerged three centuries ago) over the current commonly used type, gasoline-fueled internal combustion engines.
"Thes coal-fired steam engines use heat as an active ingredient. Coal is a volatile material, but the coal in these cars isn't packed into tanks as it is in gas-powered autos. Instead, the coal is contained in a trailer towed behind the car. These can't provide the same sort of energy density as gasoline, but that's now a plus."
The shift supervisor of the Pinto manufacturing line refused to comment.
I use Lithium Polymer batteries in my SLR camera. It's a whacking great lump that bolts on the bottom, and although it's way better than conventional AA's (even NiMH), they are hellishy expensive ($300-£400), and they are bloody heavy! One further factor is it's a typical Sony ploy. Invent a totally unique accessory that only Sony make, and charge three times the price for it. (ie, $10 power supplies with an oddball connector they sell for £150) That's why I wont buy anything from those people.
"I like to skate on the other side of the ice"
...if you as a consumer would indicate to the vendors that long range battery life is more important than over-all laptop or cellphone lightness. Are you willing to carry an extra pound or two in weight with your laptop? You can have (potentially) a bigger battery, that might be made better-more rugged-so that it is safer plus has good range. Consumers demand the lightest though (I call it the wimpification of society factor), so the vendors are stuck trying to accomodate that. Let the vendors know, starting at the local retail store and on up, tell them you want better batteries, even though it might be heavier. They won't change unless consumers change, end of story. 3 lb laptop with exploding batteries and no hang time, or maybe a 5 lb laptop that actually works and runs all day and doesn't catch fire. Now, maybe it's just me, but I would prefer the 5 lb model (whatever, units used for demonstration purposes only).
Now I have a beef with the cellphones, with the constantly shrinking size, last two stores I went into had no cell phones that to me are large enough to be useful. I don't want a tiny screen and buttons so small you mash three of them at once..but..that's all I am seeing until you get into the ridiculous price class range of PDAs, and now even those (smartphones) are too small. I'd swap 90% of the non phone call making functions in the phone if it was just a larger and to me a more practical phone. The couple I have now I will hang on to as long as possible because they are still moderately useful, but looking at the trends it looks like they want to embed cellphones into a tooth cavity or something pretty soon. I don't know what Lilliputians they use to test drive these new phones, but they have to be three foot tall max with fingers as big as toothpicks and eyes sharp as eagles.
Do these new batteries come ready to explode like the lithium ion batteries or do we have to pay extra for that feature?
Bite my shiny metal ass.
Never trust lithium. I took it for years and my brain NEVER worked. I wish I was joking.
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> Instead, it is contained in a polymer gel. These gel batteries can't provide
> the same sort of energy density as lithium ion batteries, but that's now a
> plus."
Better yet, go back to carbon-zinc dry cells.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Reminds me of that old Nirvana song: "I'm not gonna crack"..Wonder if Sony is going to make laptop batteries with a Lithium Polymer.
The article is slashdotted so don't bash me for NOT RTFA, please.
That said, is it just me or does anyone else think the best way to push a new technology is to make an old tried and true one seem dangerous and unreliable.
Kind of like making freon out to be the environmental bad guy just as the patent runs out and something new comes online to replace it.
O.K. I'm paranoid but someone must have done this to make me this way.
Motorola was one of the first to start using Li-On Polymer batteries on portable electronic devices. It was about 9 years ago.
US Patent 5,620,811
Dilithium is just a catalyst for the matter/antimatter reaction. You would still need a supply of matter, and antimatter, and containment, which would add way too much to the weight for your puny earth laptop.
In TNG, all their hand-held and portable devices use Sarium-Krellide power cells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion -- Appearing in 1991...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_polymer -- appearing in 1996...
Isn't that the same kind of battery that Uncle Rico is selling?
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All of Apples MacBooks and MacBook Pros have used LiPo since their debut in January. That's why battery life was uncertain, because LiPo had not been used in notebooks before. I hear they are supposed to be better than LiIon.
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Lithium is a metal with a melting point of 453.69 F and a boiling point of 1615F. It is a REACTIVE metal (being one of the alkali metals), but it is definitely not volatile.
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i remember that the original iPod used a Lithium-polymer battery and i've heard that the useful lifetime of the battery wasn't that great (less than 50% usable capasity after 1 year),
I don't know if I'm lucky or what, but my 1st gen iPod still holds a 9+ hour charge - I know because of the class action lawsuit that included a method for battery testing, and which did not include my iPod as a result of the test.
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Li-ion cells blow up if you short them, and aren't considered safe to distribute to consumers. What you get are Li-ion battery packs with bunch of protection circuitry and an armored case that keeps the protection circuitry from being bypassed if you drop your laptop. This armor takes up a non-trivial amount of the weight and volume of a battery pack.
A Li-poly battery pack is going to be about the same in terms of weight and volume for a given capacity. It's be somewhat easier to break (no armor), but it won't blow up if you break it (or if the protection circuit is defective). Of course, if you have a very large battery, Li-ion will be more efficient, because the armor is by surface area and the energy is by volume; but if you have a very small battery, Li-ion is impossible, because there's no room for the cell inside the required armor.
... and the same is true of Windows, even if someone gives you a copy gratis.
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Deliberately overcharging a li-poly cell for almost an hour makes it BURST INTO FLAMES! OH NOES! And that is rated INSIGHTFUL? Jeez.
Seriously. Charging batteries has *ALWAYS* been "dangerous". If anything, Li-Pol batteries are *safer* than other batteries, since they won't burst into fire from a short-circuit.
Who cares...as long as it's WildCharger compatible!
http://www.wildcharger.com/
If you must!
Li-Poly batteries are extremely light. A big part of that is they don't need the "compressive" shell normal batteries have to hold everything together. So no metal casing in addition to the lighter material.
You may think the lower eneregy density leads to more volume taken up by the laptop, but that doesn't turn out to be the case. The thing about Li-Ion (and most battery types), is that they need to be created in the form of cylinders, which do not pack very well. This menas when packing them into a rectangular space ~20% of that area is wasted in the form of the space between the cells. Li-Poly have no shape constraints, and can be shaped to take up exactly the free space in your laptop, whereever it may be. a huge advantage that easily makes up for the lower energy density and then some.
http://notanumber.net/
There have been reports of lithium polymer batteries spontaneously igniting after being damaged, while being charged incorrectly, after being shorted, and for a variety of unexplained reasons.
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See this thread entitled "Data - Complete Guide to Lithium Polymer Batteries and LiPo Failure Reports": http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2
Well, does the new old Sony battery come with one free Trojan per battery?
(I'm sure some military chemical supplier has all the 'Bursting into Flame' patents all sown up already, anyway.)
On the plus side - at least Sony IS finally responding to consumer's requests,
maybe things will turn around for them. The PS-3 isn't half bad, and VIAO's seem to be improving too.
Sorry. I know it isn't really the point, but I'm just not a fan of mincing terms.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.