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How to get a Refund on Your Unwanted Windows
lisah writes "Serge Wroclawski recently contacted Dell to request a refund on the unwanted copy of Windows XP that came pre-installed on his computer. Somewhat surprisingly, Dell complied. Wroclawski admits that the $52.50 refund was more of a victory in principal than anything else, but it was a success nonetheless. Using his tips and techniques readers can try their hand at getting a refund of their own. Wroclawski cautions that you should be prepared for a long haul: the process could take hours." Linux.com and Slashdot are both owned by OSTG.
Is it Microsoft or Dell themselves that *require* you to purchase one of their PC's with an O/S? If it's up to Dell at all, my suggestion to them would be to just have that as an option when ordering via phone or internet. Subtract whatever minimal amount they want and thereby save us and them some grief and some money in the process.
I thought dell built the computer exactly how YOU wanted it? Why not order it with No windows to begin with?
"This message was sent from an Apple
Can I hire someone in China to go through the refund process for me for a fraction of the refund amount?
Its spelled 'cents', and yes...I agree 5,250 is a lot of cents.
Wait for Vista to come out to get a bigger discount (if possible to get any). Right now though, if you get XP on a new machine then you are probably going to get the Vista upgrade, which is going to be worth it considering the likely cost of a new license.
Also, do not expect companies to start selling OS free computers anytime soon. They make a good profit off charging for the OS (built into price)
Invexi - a Phoenix, AZ based web design and web development company.
Does the hard drive come with a separate license explicitly entitling you to a refund if you choose not to accept the extensive post-sale license it subjects you to?
I guess if you're still living with your mom, you might consider it a large sum.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
A lot of people have tried this since the "Windows Refund Day" back in 1999. http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ Not many have been successful.
Why Microsoft can't sell a copy of Windows XP to anyone for $52. I'm not sure why "volume discount" or OEM relationships are exactly a satisfactory answer either.
Can I get a refund on that?
Did it come with an End User Licence Agreement which stated that if you did not agree to the licence you could return it for a refund? If so, then yes - you can return the drive for a refund. If no, then probably not.
With desktops this is a no-brainer...just build your own and don't buy Windows. At the current time however, there really isn't any way to build your own laptop...you have to buy a prebuilt one from a manufacturer, most of which are going to include Windows. TFA was about someone getting a Windows refund for a laptop.
I think we've discussed this before here. It's not the same person, but it's pretty much the same story (the other one involves a laptop from Dell). One difference is that it looks like the other guy got more of a refund ($89).
I don't reply to Anonymous posts; if you have something to say to me, identify yourself or I won't reply.
...Most people who don't run Windows on an x86 PC build their own.
...I got just as much satisfaction by tearing the Windows license off my laptop (there's a spot on the laptop chassis marked COA, like it can't work without it) and removing the little sticker that says "Designed for Windows XP"
Unfortunately, it's just not worth the time when you're really just stroking your ego.
mandelbr0t"Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
If you want an Intel-processor-powered computer without Windows, you can buy them from IBM, HP, Sun, etc; they are Server-type computers. Usually they are noisier becuase they have machine-room-type fans.
Yeah, I think it sucks too.
If it's up to Dell at all, my suggestion to them would be to just have that as an option when ordering via phone or internet. Subtract whatever minimal amount they want and thereby save us and them some grief and some money in the process.
Every option that Dell adds costs them money. Right now, every computer Dell makes has a hard drive in it with Windows installed. They're all the same. If they add an option so that you can select 'No Windows', then they need to start keeping track of which computers have windows on them and which don't.
Now, obviously, Dell already has lots of options. But you'll note most of those options lead you to spending MORE money, not less money. And how many people really go to Dell to buy a computer and DON'T want windows on it? I would guess that the number is so small that the extra business Dell might get by offering a no-windows option is not worth the cost to them of doing so. Which is a perfectly rational business decision to make.
On the other hand, if lots of people keep calling up Dell and tying up their customer service reps on the phone doing Windows refunds, they may decide that offering the option is less expensive than fielding the calls (Dell doesn't want to pay people to talk to you on the phone any more than you want to waste time talking on the phone to them). So, if enough people call, the rational business decision might change from 'Always bundle windows' to 'Offer a no-Windows option'. Which is where 'the principle mentioned' in TFA applies.
paintball
Could you do the same thing with Mac OSX (even though it is a *INX variant with a pretty shell)?
OSX isn't just a *NIX variant with a pretty shell.
What makes OSX OSX is the platform built on top of the core: the Cocoa and Carbon APIs and the Aqua UI. The core is largely irrelevant (indeed NextStep had an both BSD and NT versions of Cocoa; Apple only chose the BSD version because they didn't want dependence on MS for their OS core). You belittle OSX to bring it down to the level of Linux. The Linux distros aren't in the same league as OSX, regardless of whether both use *nix cores or not.
But yeah, I think the ability to get a refund for OSX or to buy Mac's with no OS could be cool.
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
Which is why even the summary says: "Wroclawski admits that the $52.50 refund was more of a victory in principle than anything else".
Anything that shows companies like Dell that people want something other than Windows is a step in the right direction. Maybe after refunding that $52.50 enough times, they'll start to rethink pre-installing Windows without giving people a choice.
There are a large number of people out here, albeit a minority, that do want to just run, say, Linux, on the PCs that they buy. And the fact is that the more time you spend researching and selecting hardware carefully, especially in the case of laptops, means that the easier job you'll have getting Linux to recognise of all of it.
I've never put Linux on a Dell laptop so I don't know how Linux-friendly they are - but I have recently done so an IBM one (which was easy), on a HP one (which was a bit trickier) and finally on a Gateway one (which I never got 100% working).
No, the $52 is not an important sum of money but if a number of people do it, then it sends a clear message to Dell to offer OS-free laptops. If other people run XP and are happy with it then good luck to them and I hope it does what they want it to do - but there is no "one size fits all" in computing and please have some respect for those of us who aren't interested in getting involved in an OS "war" but do want the freedom to run the software that they want to.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Unless you can get millions of people to do this en masse, this does more harm than good. It gives Dell and Microsoft a perfect opportunity to say:
"Anyone can return Windows for a refund. (Naturally we take just a few simple, reasonable precautions to ensure that people don't abuse the process.) Of umpteen godzillion copies of Windows bundled with Dell PCs last year, Dell's records show that the total number returned for a refund is... twenty-two[or whatever the number is].
This proves what we've been saying all along. Virtually everyone loves Windows, nobody really minds paying for it. Of the reported 5% [or whatever it is] of Dell customers using Linux, obviously the vast, vast majority of them also enjoying the copy of WIndows that came with their PC and think it is worth far, far more than $52.50.
It also shows, as we've been saying all along, that there's absolutely no need to make available PCs that are not preloaded with Windows. Anyone that doesn't want it can return it, as is proved by the twenty-two who did. Clearly it's not worth the effort of generating an extra SKU just to serve twenty-two eccentrics."
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Since Microsoft contracts out with hardware vendors, there's no actual way to know how much Windows costs a given retailer. This being the case, I was asking for the price of an OEM copy of Windows XP Home SP2 that I found on Newegg, which was $89. In the end they gave me $52.50.
Try $20 or $25...they paid you $52.50 because it was worth $52.50 to make you leave them alone. Whether you agree with bundling deals or not, making Dell have to deal with you on the phone for several hours and making them pay you money because you don't agree with how they sell their product is a really jerkish thing to do.
I'm sorry. The number you have reached is imaginary. Please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again.
They had to pay some support person to talk to him for those two hours, and their supervisor, and he tied up phone lines and computers on their end. The paid return postage. Then they probably needed someone in a different department to actually issue the $52.50 and then they had to pay credit card fees to return the money to his card. If they actually went ahead and returned the license to microsoft then that's yet more cost.
Companies may have very low operating expenses when everything goes to plan, but i would be surprised if it cost dell a decent multiple of 52.50 to actually process the issue.
If they start to notice it happening more often then the obvious thing to do is to build it in to the process and let people order machines without windows.
Getting the largest computer manufacturer to conceed that Windows isn't the only way would be a big win for everyone.
evidently you've missed the point though.
it's about principle. if enough of us demand the 52 bucks, thats a good deal of money for Dell and Microsoft to eat. This will lead the future offering of machines without an OS preloaded.
If you wonder why things in the world are taking a down turn, it's because very few people are willing to do things just on principle. As one person, yea, 52 bucks is less than a drop in the bucket (Especially from the corporation's side of it) But if we work together, we can begin to change things towards our liking.
Don't Tread on Me
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
Sounds like he's up 52 bucks compared to you at the end of a few hours. Now who's the dumbass with the stupid hobby?
And it's not just the $52. He's gained knowlege, published it for the benefit of others, and for all we know could have been enjoying a cocktail himself in the process. It's his time, he can spend it as he pleases whether you or I approve or not.
I am not a crackpot.
The parent is right (if stating it poorly). The fact is that MS and the OEMs don't need to make it impossible to get a refund for Windows, just a PitA. I mean, if they can chase you off with 15 minutes from a $10/hour guy and making you do hours of work to prove you erased XP and send the copy back to them, you're not going to bother. 90% of the time, Dell just loses $5 in tech-support pay dealing with your complaint.
Microsoft "negotiated" terms for giving OEMs better rates on Windows. Bottom line is that if hardware vendors don't put an OS on each and every PC/ laptop that they sell they end up paying more for Windows.
The effect is that the Microsoft Tax becomes great enough that the hardware vendor can't compete with other vendors who get Windows for a cheaper price. Being that Microsoft has a monopoly on operating systems any vendor that doesn't go along goes out of business.
Microsoft originally required that only Microsoft OS could be installed but this was illegal so they did the next best thing. BTW Dell use to sell computers with Linux installed. I don't know if they do any more but instead of being cheaper they charged more because they can't just grab one off of an assembly line. It takes special attention and therefore costs more. So Microsoft is still leveraging there monopoly power through their price breaks given to vendors who won't sell a bare PC.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I bought my current notebook, an Acer Travelmate 2420, with Windows XP pre-installed...
I really tried to find a notebook with Linux pre-instaled, or at least without Windows. And to my surprise, the cheaper ones are those shipping with Windows!
Mind you that I live at Brazil, and import taxes and such may distort the prices a little... But the shocking truth is, at least here, if you want a notebook without Windows, you have to pay MORE for it.
---- You know how some doctors have the Messiah complex - they need to save the world? You've got the "Rubik's" complex
VMWare. So you have to buy another generic XP Pro OEM copy, for perhaps USD 139.
In a business, re-imaging a mixture a Dell/Non-Dell machines requires a non-Dell OEM version of XP (generic XP OEM works on Dells, but Dell XP only works on Dells). Re-imaging is the only efficient way to deploy/maintain lots of machines, since the estimate for "installation from scratch" is 10+ hours to install XP, Office, Updates, applications, leading to white papers advising how it is cheaper to "refresh hardware" than use valuable technician time to reinstall XP from scratch on each workstation.
The non-transferable OEM license associated with a particular Dell machine/COA implies a licensing model for Windows similar to Redhat, i.e. the OEM license is tied to support, which is not truthful at all since the license is for the purpose of operating the computer.
In theory, one could use that money to purchase World of Warcraft: Burning Crusade. If this Windows refund effort is done on a "patch Tuesday", even the time could be justified in lieu of Blizzard maintenance down-time.
No, they don't want Windows, they want a computer because they want to surf teh intarwebs, use myspace, and forward stupid email jokes to all of their friends. They couldn't give a shit what the OS is, so long as the computer does what they want and doesn't cost more than they are willing to pay.
By forcing all the vendors to offer only computers with Windows preinstalled, Microshaft has guaranteed victory over the majority of computer buyers who just don't know any better. (Including corporations.)
Well, you learn something *EVERY* day on Slashdot! And there was me thinking OSX was just a pretty matching screensaver for an over-sized designer coffee table...
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
And your follow-up too. Perhaps there is a lesson in this for you? ;-)
I bought a Dell the other day. I'll be trying to get a refund for my XP license, just as a matter of principle, since I'm installing Linux (Ubuntu). However, on boot up this machine (an Inspiron 1300) does not display an option to reject the EULA. Instead it displays a message saying that "pressing any key" indicates acceptance of the license!
If you accepted that at face value, that would mean that hitting the off "key" would accept the license. Removing the battery and power cord allows you to switch off without hitting a key I suppose, but how are you supposed to use it if you can never press the keys again?
Ok, that's obviously an excessively paranoid interpretation and I doubt a court would hold that to be a reasonable interpretation even in the unlikely event that Dell were foolish enough to press the point, but it does demonstrate a very dubious use of an EULA.
In practice I expect Dell will pony up the money. We'll see.
--- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
Retail markup. The retailer has to be able to make money on that software, or they aren't going to carry it. You can't sell a retailer something for $50 and tell them to sell it for $50, they'll probably want to sell it for $100. When Dell refunds you money, they aren't refunding the marked up price, since the markup is on the whole PC, they refund you their purchase price. Also their markup on the software is probably lower since it's just part of a whole package to make the package more attractive.
FYI MS offers volume discounts to other large organizations. My university pays $54 per copy of Office we want. However, as similar to Dell, there's no support, we have to deal with the media, etc.
I cannot believe that you say this like you're actually *PROUD* of it.
How about demonstrating *REAL* strength of conviction and character by running a *FREE LEGAL ALTERNATIVE* rather than an illegal Windowss Vista copy? Surely that would send a much stronger message to Microsoft about their pricing and give them less of a justification for punishing legal users with the likes of DRM because of your activities.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
It's not your fault Dell does not make things easy, but you can help them see the light. Together, we can make this abuse a money loser.
The reason this makes sense is because it forces Dell to go through the wasteful process they have in place. Done enough times, the process will change. No one can afford to tie up their phones and support staff over a $50.00 refund they will have to give you if they don't want to break the law.
There are a lot of people who use free software exclusively and the potential for a whole lot more. Free Software finds it's way onto more than 30% of computers, if you include big packages like GIMP and Firefox. Most of those people may correctly suspect that a free operating system is the easiest way to get and keep those applications. If so much as 5% of Dell users spend the time demanding a refund for software they don't intend to use, Dell will be forced to change for the better. That change for the better will remove on more barrier to free software use - the computer without an OS will be cheaper to the end user as it always should have been.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Dell sells a product with an explicit offer to return a component for a refund under certain conditions. Did the terms of sale presented when you purchased the Honda/house/silverware offer a refund of the cost of the unused component? If not then you're not provided comparable scenarios. Why does it anger you to hear about customers satisfying the conditions to obtain the offered refund?
I'm afraid you've just contradicted your own argument - you used the word "most".
No-one's denying that he's in the minority of Dell users but the fact is that he wanted a Dell machine but not with Windows - end of story.
Why is this any different to you going to a car showroom and wanting the car in a specific colour with a specific set of extras. Didn't Henry Ford make only black Model-T Fords until people started to ask for different colours?
Isn't it the role of any corporation in this capitalist society of ours to offer what the consumer wants the way that the customer wants it?
And why are all the Windows people getting so heated about this? He's not asking Dell to support Linux so it's not as though Windows users will need to pay higher prices from Dell.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
go to the dell site. from the notebooks tab choose Open-Source Notebooks. play their silly game a price one out. i picked a latitude 520N Duo with all defaults, it comes to $699. now go through and find the same machine with windows on it. look at a latitude 520 Duo. the same model, same processor, same memory, bigger HD, DVD-ROM instead of CD-ROM, with windows xp sp2. can you guess the price? $699. please explain that to me.
Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary. -Gandhi
And I think part of the point is that if Dell has to shell it out enough times, they might make it easier to buy a computer with no OS installed to start with.
Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
I don't need his and hers sinks, so I demand the home builder give me a refund for one sink in the bathroom.
:)
Funny you should mention that. We just did this very thing. Got some other upgrade in exchange for the extra sink (several hundred dollars, in case you're wondering). Why WOULDN'T you negotiate on things like that when someone builds it to your specification?
I also haven't seen a car built in the past 5 years that comes with a cigarette lighter, or ashtray for that matter. These days, they're extras that you have to ask (and pay) for. The place where the ashtray normally goes now has a sticker on it that says "not an ashtray".
On the bright side, you're only the second Slashdotter to spell "ridiculous" properly this week, so you have my respect
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Here, I'll help.
Windows version: none. Are you saying they don't track which machines went out with Windows 95 or Vista Pro?
Hrm, looking at my original post, no it does not appear I said that. I said that offering an additional option of operating system costs money that is probably not worth the increased business from having the option.
I cited having to add an item to the assembly process as an example, but it was just one example.
You mention that Dell already tracks what OS shipped on each computer. So what? The increased costs are not just in remembering what OS was on the computer when you sold it.
Increased costs also come from other areas. There's a cost in giving a user a choice they may not understand - confusion may cost you sales, and it may cost you more money on customer service inquiry. Most people know that 512 MB is better than 256 MB. Most users do not know what the difference is between Windows and Linux.
Most importantly, when you customize a Dell, there are *NO* options you can select that will result in you getting a computer you can't turn on and use. You can't select NO hard drive. You can't select NO memory. And they're not going to have an option for you to select NO OS, because then people will select it and start getting computers that don't work.
Remember also that Dell supports their own hardware. If someone gets it, and it doesn't work, Dell gets the phone call. So even if they offer Windows AND Linux, when people choose Linux, and then go to install a program that they expect to work that does not work on Linux, Dell gets that call too.
Adding an option for No OS or Linux to consumer-model desktops and laptops just does not make sense for Dell to do. The number of people who would like to use Linux who would be pleased by the option is far, far, far less than the number of customers who will end up with computers that they think, even though it's because of their own ignorance, are broken. Dell does not care whether the customer thinks they have a broken computer because the customer is ignorant. Dell only cares that the customer thinks they got a broken computer.
Another cost is support. Fielding people who can support Windows 95 and Windows XP is a whole different ball game than fielding support that can handle Windows XP and Linux.
As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Dell does have Linux available on some computers - specifically, high-end workstations. But all that shows is that it's profitable to offer high-end workstations with !windows while trying to offer consumer computers with !windows is not.
It isn't any more reasonable for Dell to offer 'No Windows' or 'Linux' than it is for them to offer 'No Video Card' or a video card from a non-partnered vendor. You buy the computer, you get the video cards they make available. If you don't like it, you don't get to pull it out and send it back. The only reason you get a refund on Windows is because of the license agreement.
Or, put another way, if YOU want Linux on your computer, don't buy your computer at Dell. It's not their obligation to offer Linux if they think it's more trouble for them than it's worth.
paintball
You need to check out HP... suddenly EVERY SINGLE ONE of their business computers is available as a "Linux" model (actually a freeDOS install) and the amount saved is MUCH more than a measly $52. On a lower priced model, you can save 25% on the cost of the computer:
For example...
HP site: HP Compaq 2000 series (two models):
dx2200 microtower base model, MS-Windows XP Pro $637
dx2200 microtower base model, MS-Windows XP Home $557
dx2200 microtower base model, "Alternate OS" $487
Wow! $150 difference from XP Pro and $70 from XP Home! That is the *FIRST TIME* I have *EVER* seen a true, correct, and reasonable difference in the price. Could HP be doing something neat? I actually checked EVERY LINE of the quote to make sure that wasn't a mistake.
So... in this case, you really can avoid an almost 24% tax!
Certainly that is the only model. NO- they offer "configure Linux PC" on the entire 5000 line (4 more models) and get this- the difference is *$167* this time. And $160 on the entire 7000 line (three more models). In fact, every single small, medium, and large business line and even workstation line is available with "Alternate OS" (even business laptops!). You only lack the choice with their "Home" computers. Good going, HP!
I am not saying that MS-Windows isn't *worth* the $160 to some people. But it is worth $0 to people that want to install something other than MS-Windows or already own an MS-Windows individual or site license.
Now we need HP to do this with their home line too, and hopefully the other vendors will follow.
The guy who could have made more more money flipping burgers for minimum wage at McD's?
What he has is a token refund check and five minutes fame from a post to Slashdot. Dell meanwhile will go on its merry way selling millions of laptops with the default OEM Windows install
Dell needs Windows to make money. Have you ever purchased a Dell? There is incredible amount of shareware and crippleware on a Dell. Do you think Dell is including this software out of the goodness of it's heart? No, everything icon added on the build was paid for. And if you've bought a Dell, specially Dell Home PC there's A LOT of paid placement.
Parent has a really good point. Considering the number of people who will ever hear about this refund, and the number of those who are eligible for a refund, and the number of those who want a refund, and the number of those who will actually bother, Dell and Microsoft aren't going to be in any kind of trouble. But I could sure use 52 bucks.
:)
If enough of you think 52 bucks isn't a big deal, on the other hand, let me know, and I'll setup a P.O. box you can send it to
Actually I think Dell is in the perfect position to offer at least one or two flavors of Linux/BSD because of their control of the hardware just as Apple has. Controlling both the hardware and software that goes into their machines is Apple's secret to having a stable OS and application suite. For that matter, Dell could even offer it's own distro customized for Dell's standard hardware configurations. If they did that, I might even be tempted to buy a Dell myself instead of putting a machine together from scratch and wrestling with Linux over device drivers, screen resolution and refresh rate, etc. Maybe I could even *finally* have a version of Linux/BSD that lets me use the sidebuttons on my Logitech mice as I can under Windblows. :-)
9/11 Eyewitnesses to Explosive WTC Demolition 1 of 2
Then throw FreeDOS on the drive with an AUTOEXEC.BAT that says, "You chose to buy a computer without an operating system. If you wish to purchase an operating system, call Dell at (800) xxx.xxxx". Dell can then sell them Windows at full retail.
Sure, provide Windows but make the Windows partition 50% of the disk.
Then it is easier to install Linux for dual boot. Dell spends very little on OEM Windows licenses so the cost to me of having Windows is very small. However, getting a PC with half the disk unused makes life simpler.
get a linux laptop, from vendor like emperorlinux.com (I'm not affiliated with that company) I remember when I was going to purchased my laptop in bestbuy, I brought a Knoppix CD and asked the guy if I can insert and boot the CD so I can test out the hardware if it's compatible with knoppix, they didn't allow me. Then at checkout they tried to offer me some software, like Norton Internet Security, and I told them I'm going to wipe the hard drive and install linux on it, he insisted I will still need the Norton to protect me - LOL -